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In the international response section, do domestic US civil liberty group's objections need to be raised? If they were international groups I would understand, but bringing up the ACLU in a so-called "international" section does not make sense...
Hi all, I've finally decided to Be Bold and include estimates of the three WTC building collapse times. I've held off on adding these estimates until now because I had difficulty finding a credible source which we could all agree upon. Well, I've just come accross a link here: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm that lists WTC 1 collapse as 9 seconds and WTC 2 as 11 seconds (both are listed as estimates) While this link doesn't include an estimate for WTC 7, I have seen multiple references to a number of 6.6 seconds. Since I don't have a credible reference for WTC 7, I have left it as an ambiguous 'under 7 seconds'...
Please feel free to clean up the grammar. I admit this section is awkwardly worded. My apologies, I simply wanted to add the facts as soon as possible.
Anyone have a credible source for WTC 7 building collapse time? Oh, and please don't revert this good faith, credibly sourced, factual reference - at least not without explaining your actions on this talk page. Digiterata 22:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, please explain what I have done to deserve these reverts? I have cited relevant facts (WTC Building Collapse times) that document a notable event. I have not added any hint of conspiracy theory foolishness. I have cited only clearly credible sources (National Institute of Standards and Testing). Mmx if NIST is an unreliable citation as you have noted on your rationale for reverting, we may have to make some much more fundamental changes to this article. Digiterata 18:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2.
From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.
{uninterested third party} Remember
3RR, people. --
DarthBinky
03:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's an exercise.
If Person A adds something to an article...
... and Person B reverts it...
And Person A readds it...
... and Person C reverts it...
And Person A readds it...
... and Person D reverts it...
What on earth makes Person A think that he represents consensus? "Go to the talk page to find consensus" doesn't work if you're apparently the only one pushing that entry, Lovelight, so stop pretending. --
Golbez
03:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
If you choose to dig deep into the history of this talk page, or if you just check recent additions you will see what you already know. We are working on burning, disturbing.., one would say Itchy and Scratchy issue here. More important, and without any exaggerations whatsoever, we are talking about one of the most important events in history of mankind. What happened on 911 (9/11) changed one's life deeply and profoundly wherever one may be. We live in the age of fear & terror which is (proven to be) suitable for only one thing… unnecessary death, violence, hate and destruction. We have witnessed unjust, absolutely false war which is directly linked to this horrible act. We are witnessing how our freedom is turning into slavery (literary), and the sheer fact that we had warnings which stated how editing and discussing of this article is "not allowed" by US Government is good example as any. If this affair caused violation of Geneva conventions, if this event served as foundation of Patriot Act and (il)legal wiretapping, if this event leads to such terms as "islamo-nazi fascism", then we have to be absolutely clear on what and why happened. Now, instead of intended attacks on Mongo, his superiors and his little drugz (I'll rather say, Mongo, I honestly carry no grudge, I knocked, and you locked the door, I knocked again and you pulled your cutting knife, to make things better, when I asked why did you cut me, you shared a insult… so to say… after all you did change that picture there, thank you for your modesty…), I just won't to make one thing clear. I have no hidden agenda; I have no reason (except philanthropy perhaps) whatsoever to keep any side in this discussion. You have to understand that, I simply won't be considered a "CT lunatic", and I'll even restrain to call some of you that in spite the fact that you are persistently breaking the law's of physics. I won't everyone in this world, conscious or in diapers to understand where we stand. US congress is under attack by that very Emperor from Star Wars, they resist rebelliously, but I won't risk such situation in which Skywalker will see that Death Star for the first time and say: "My God look at the size of that thing." I'm not asking anyone to lie, I'm not asking for the anarchy; I'm not asking for pulling out of Iraq tomorrow, I'm not asking for opium fields in Afghanistan. I'm not asking you to share your knowledge about needs for global economy, freefall or any such nonsense. I'm asking you to step forward and do what decent people do. There are such huge faults in this article, such indifference to present and present facts… simply unbearable. Related articles, such as one called conspiracy theories… are even poorer, one would allege disastrous. There are undisputable fact's (to some new, to some very old), I wont these facts to be recognized and implemented. There was a particular section here called foreknowledge, if you would please return to that point and discuss how, why and with what measurement our foreknowledge should be added to article. I sincerely hope that mentioning put options, inside trading, all around warnings, well timed war games, time-lines, and other undisputed facts won't do any harm to the article. It will make it far better…
PS. I know this is a bit blahbish…. However, this issue needs some perspective and this sort of intellectual gibberish is forced upon me… This was Act 1, you can see my initial thoughts (and my massage to any unbiased administrators) in chapter 9. -- Lovelight 17:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I am a reader, not an active user of wikipedia. I will make this short and brief: How can you write that they where terrorist attacks? and that Al-Qaida was behind? when so many facts points in other directions? and no metion of the possible governmental involment?except from under the heading of "conspiracy theroies".? or the fact that it is highly possible that explosives where used to bring the towers down?or the fact that they where buildt to withstand an airliner of the size that crashed? or the fact that WTC 7 collapsed without being hit by anything?and the way they collapsed was that of a controlled demolition. ypu have chosen to buy into the official US goernment version of the incidents, instead of giving more weight to indepenant and by far more reliable sources. I feel sick to my stomach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.196.183 ( talk • contribs)
I'm new here but I've read the last three archived pages of discussion and all these points have been discussed over and over again. -- PTR 17:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello, this is the second message I post on this supposely "free" talk page since the first one has been deleted for some obscure reason. It regards the conspiracy theory. Just go and have a look on the following web site: www.reopen911.org
It is an enormous oversight that there isn't a single mention of the FEMA-coordinated search-and-rescue operations involving over 350 specially trained dogs and handlers. This was the largest deployment of search-and-rescue teams in U.S. history (presumably in the world), and I believe it deserves a mention.
Important/useful links:
Picture Gallery: The World Trade Center's Heroic Rescue Dogs - Photos of 9/11 dogs in action
FEMA - Federal Emergency Management Agency - 9/11 Info page - The definitive source
National Search Dog Foundation - more info
Each of these links will provide a wealth of information regarding the subject. 72.78.222.99 18:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC) Lyn T. 2006.09.19
I wouldn't call it enormous, but I think a mention would be a good addition to the article KBecks 22:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, maybe not "enormous" but definitely significant and, as Lovelight said, refreshing. Not everything has to be bleak about 9/11 :) I just submitted a minor edit to the "Rescue, recovery, and compensation" section. Hope it gets approved. Thanks for the feedback, folks. 72.78.222.99 11:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Lyn T.
The beginning of this section and the title of the timeline page both are misleadingly worded.
Main article: September 11, 2001 attacks timeline for the day of the attacks
It seems to be saying that the September 11, 2001 attacks the timeline for the day of the attacks. Could this be reworded to read September 11, 2001 timeline for the day of the attacks?
Can the text be reworded to include the airports the planes departed from instead of East Coast airports?
-- PTR 19:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I know you are all trying to decide what is important content (and you should be praised for all your hard work) but some focus should go on how the article is written. Some of the sentences are not encylopedic and others are out of place. Examples:
No one on board any of the hijacked aircraft survived.[9] This could be inserted into the following paragraph as ...including 246 on the four planes (no one on board, etc.)...
The fatalities were in the thousands, with 2,973 people killed, including 246 on the four planes, 2,602 in New York City in the towers and on the ground, and 125 at the Pentagon.[10]Among the fatalities were 343 New York City Fire Department firefighters, 23 New York City Police Department officers, and 37 Port Authority police officers.[11] An additional 24 people remain listed as missing in the attack on the World Trade Center to this day.[12]
The first sentence should be rewritten as - There were 2,973 fatalities...
The last sentence as - An additional 24 people remain listed as missing.[12] -- PTR 20:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there is a Fatalities section and the fatalities are listed in the introduction would there be a problem with removing this para from the Attacks section and combining into the Fatalities section. The paragraph (and the one below it) breaks up the flow of the section and is repeated information.
The following paragraph also breaks up the flow of the section and could be moved to a section called Damages beneath the Fatalities section. An explanation or citation for the second to last para (Communications equipment...) would be helpful and the one sentence hanging at the end regarding the Pentagon seems an afterthought. A Damages section would be a simple summary of damages with links to the appropriate pages for additional information.
Let me know if anyone would mind these changes. -- PTR 13:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I have an acquaintance who told me just last week, he lost his grandparents to suffication 5 blocks from WTC on 9/11 in that dust cloud, their windows were open. This was a revelation to me. I wonder what the actual numbers are to this type of death and why the official #'s are accident sites specific. Beyond that these numbers may accrue over the years with the toxic cleanup atmosphere that is just now coming out, but, will not be 100% confirmable to WTC. ( Greg0658 03:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC))
there are two theories of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. only one is shown in this article. the other state's that the attacks where ordered by bush so that he could invade Iraq and have an excuse to pass the patriot act. we need to put in this article "there are to theories of what happened on 9/11" then list this article as one, and the Iraq theory as the other. since none of us where there when the attacks where planned we won't know for sure until history has played out. i suggest that until that time we list both.
I added short section as follows: - The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) "failed miserably in its duty" to alert the military of possibly hijacked aircraft (New York Times, August 13, 2006). Also, for more than two years after September 11, NORAD and the (FAA) provided false information about the response to the 9/11 hijackings in testimony and media appearances to the 9/11 Commission (Washington Post, August 2, 2006). NORAD and the FAA officials stated that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that fighter jets had been scrambled to intercept planes in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington, D.C. For example, Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the 9/11 Commission determined that the airliner was not even hijacked until 12 minutes later. According to later testimony, the military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania. - The Commission was forced to use subpoenas to obtain the cooperation of the NORAD and FAA to release evidence such as audiotapes (Washington Post, August 2, 2006). - NORAD and the FAA's reluctance to release the tapes, e-mails and other evidence, along with their erroneous public statements, led some of the 9/11 Commission's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on September 11. "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on September 11, said in a recent interview (Washington Post, August 2, 2006). No U.S. government official has been held accountable for their failures on 9/11 or for the subsequent false information they gave about the events of 9/11.
Mongo, why did you delete? Please refrain from deleting without at least attempting to provide an explanation for your actions. I find actions like that dismissive and high-handed in violation of WP's consensus-oriented approach. -- JustFacts 22:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Morton, why did you delete: However, the FBI "wanted" release for Osama bin Laden does not list 9/11 as a crime for which the FBI seeks him (( http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm). Please read link. Please refrain from using language bordering on vulgarity. Instead, you may wish to engage in civilized debate in accordance with WP rules. I will give you a chance to respond before restoring contribution.-- JustFacts 22:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
By "hopelessly in violation of NPOV" you mean what exactly? That it is critical of some government officials? I am suggesting the start of a section on accountability. If you have other sources on this you can add them for "balance." I do not see where in the article the info I added (or anything like it) is reflected. As an aside, can we agree that it is very impolite to remove fully sourced contributions without a decent explanation (you were not the one, I know)? With respect to the FBI procedures, what rules of procedure would make my contribution irrelevant? Please point to the discussion, if applicable. -- JustFacts 14:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, "failed miserably" is the conclusion reached by the NYT based on the record of incompetence on 9/11. We could take out "miserably" and list the failings if necessary. But taking out the whole section? That's supposed to be NPOV, to remove the whole section? It shows POV to remove any criticism. By the way, is "hopelessly in violation" NPOV?-- JustFacts 17:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the FBI poster, I am assuming you're referring to this discusion: [ [7]]. The "explanation" of why the FBI poster for OBL does not list 9/11 is that OBL has not been charged with that crime. But that explanation begs the larger question quite relevant to the 9/11 article. How could the US gov't have sufficient evidence for charges for, say, the USS Cole bombing, but insufficient evidence against Osama for 9/11? How could the gov't be sure enough about Osama's connection with 9/11 to proclaim it publicly and attack and invade a sovereign country (Afghanistan), yet have insufficient evidence for filing criminal charges? Either they have sufficient evidence, in which case why not file charges as they have with his other bombings, or they do not, in which case invading Afghanistan and declaring a global War on Terrorism was factually baseless. As far as our article is concerned, since the article has a whole section on Osama in the responsibility section, the facts of the lacuna on the FBI wanted release and the lack of criminal charges are quite important, I would think. -- JustFacts 17:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Billion, here is a link you requested: [ [8]] . I will ignore your guess as to my "ultimate purpose" as it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and is inappropriate in this forum. Please see my comment to Golbez about mind reading. For all you know I believe NASA faked the manned lunar landings. -- JustFacts 20:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
If no one else has any further objections I will repost section on "Accountability" (see text above) to the article. I note that the editor who deleted my contribution with no explanation has so far not stated his objection in response to my query. I find that discurteous.-- JustFacts 03:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, since we agree that accountability is an important issue, we should create the section. In terms of singling out NORAM and FAA, we have to start building the section somehow. It might as well be with the lead US agencies in charge on the day of 9/11. I heartily agree that other agencies and possibly specific officials with those agencies should also be covered. But we should not hold up the accountability section if we are off to a good start simply because it is not yet comprehensive. There is only so much I can do at one time. Conversely, if I spent the next few weeks finding sources and proposed on this page a full blown section on accountability, it would be even more difficult to reach concensus on adding it because there would be quibling on various details. Any section on accountability will be susceptible POV charges. How do you discuss accountability without doling out some potential blame. IF we water it down we could also err on the other side of POV (POV: the US agencies acted reasonably well or at least with no flaws worthy of mention)--the current problem with the article. -- JustFacts 17:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure that "accountability" is necessarily needed as a new section. It is probably enough to state breifly how air traffic is handled and who/what was tracking the specific flights that day. How they were tracked and who was in charge of judging the threat. The wikipedia should definitely avoid doling out "accountability" rather discuss the facts, chain of command, who made what calls regarding threats, what proposals were made, what hijacking protocols are, etc. Accountability lends itself to POV problems. The article can even state what experts suggest should or could have been done and should definitely cite the 9/11 report and what it concluded were problems with the events of that day leading up to the acts of terrorism themselves. Wikipedia is not really the place to "hold people/organizations accountable" and that idea should be avoided. But, wikipedia should definitely discuss the facts of the day and specific instances that have been reported to be poorly handled and why. If it remains factual and avoids the less credible claims of what happened that day I think a section like this would do just fine (and of course it will be hashed over by editors for a while). !@# Rtrev 19:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Please read (or re-read) my proposed contribution on accountability near the top of this section and tell me whether your comments are still valid. I think we are in agreement. My proposed contribution makes statements about federal shortcomings (and misrepresentations after the fact) based on reliable major news accounts.-- JustFacts 20:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think your original statements sound too much like a listing of every criticism from major news sources. I don't think that is neccessary or appropriate. Instead, it should be exactly who was in charge of what aspects of that day, what are the official protocols for a hijacking, and how were those adhered to or not adhered to. Was anyone involved in the actual air control and tracking that day critical of events? What were the official suggestions for change in the 9/11 report. Major media can carp all they want because hindsight is always 20/20. The wikipedia shouldn't assist in doling out blame no matter what major news source wants to dole it out. Unless their was legal negligence or official blame, firings etc. then I don't think it is appropriate to list evry complaint from national TV, print, and internet news. !@# Rtrev 16:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you're proposing a more ambitious analysis than what I had in mind and may come close the original research problem. The 9/11 Commission typically avoided holding agencies let alone individuals accountable by analyzing what they should have dome compared to what they did do. By the way, I don't think the media have typically not been critical of specific US agencies. In response to another point you raise, my contribution draws from one or two articles and is therefore not susceptible to the charge that I am cherry picking all the worst characterizations. Again, my contribution focuses on some of the key criticisms of the lead agencies. That I think is the way to begin building this section of the article.-- JustFacts 23:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
No, not just articles critical of gov't, wherever did you get that idea? I have no problem starting a separate article on the subject if you think this one is already too long. Would you pitch in to such an article on accountability? -- JustFacts 16:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
In view of the many notable sources criticizing various aspects of gov't agency performance before, on and after 9/11, the article as it is now has a major flaw: the reader gets no sense of this. The section I proposed has several examples of such criticisms. Does no one beside me have a problem with this? The reader of the 9/11 article is given the impression that there is no criticism of gov't agencies or flaw in response on 9/11 or thereafter worthy of comment. PTR, you cite the examples I provide from RS then dismiss any possibility of accountability? I acknowledge that gov't agencies/individuals have not been held accountable for negligence etc.--in fact this fact should be mentioned, but that should not stop us from citing criticisms. In terms of POV, we should also cite sources extolling gov't response where available (e.g. NYC firefighters who dutifully went to their deaths by the hundreds--we would need sources of course). -- JustFacts 20:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Criticism/accountability. Makes no difference to me. I thought "accountability" would be less POV since "criticism" will be immediately attacked here as focusing on "bad news" (actions not taken that should have been as standard operating procedure, etc.) I agree that the article is already quite long. Aftermath article would not be suitable, since many of the criticisms are about events before and on 9/11. Short paragraph here with link to a separate article on the subject would be best, I think. If anyone is interested in starting to write this let me know as I have never started a new article myself: "Criticism of gov't agencies for 9/11 related actions and omissions" How is that?-- JustFacts 16:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Tom, you reverted two edits which both stem from the Muckraker Report. I do not see your point yet. I revert and reformulate, for starters. Could you please, on this talk page, elaborate on your view concerning: ...
...so that we can al work together on this article, in stead of "fight" ? Thank you! — Xiutwel (talk) 08:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Golbez, I'm sorry you feel this way. Similarly, one could argue that the only point to remove this neutral, unbiased, information, is to push the government POV. The dispute flag goes up. If anyone would like to point me to previous discussion / consensus, please provide a date (from your own edit history?) or link to the talk page, because I don't see it.
What a waste of our energy this is, wikipedia !!! Should we not have a broad discussion on how to allow for several 'POV' facts simulataniously in order to make all 911 articles NPOV?
— Xiutwel (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Please see my comment in the previous section. Let's continue the FB poster discussion here. Tom, please explain why on the question of what is contained in the FBI "wanted" poster the FBI's website showing the "wanted" poster is "not a relialbe source" and is "innuendo." Golbez, you seem to possess a degree of mind reading skill in identifying the intent of the editor making an edit. You then seem to take the position that you can decide that such an intention is inapproriate based on some unidentified set of criteria. The final step seems to be to decide that you have been empowered to remove any contributions, no matter how relevant, compliant with WP rules, and fully sourced, because it is incompatible with the intention you decided existed which you decided was inappropriate. -- JustFacts 20:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The only point of this edit is to attempt to insinuate that the government doesn't think Osama did it. False. The 10 Most Wanted list requires someone be indicted, and the Justice Department has not yet, for whatever reason. My mindreading is skillful - you are subtly trying to express a POV not entirely supported by the facts. I can indeed decide, because five years of precedent has told us that such implied stuff isn't allowed here. -- Golbez 21:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
"The only point of this edit," Golbez, is to inform the reader of the facts. The US claims OBL is behind 9/11. The US has not indicted OBL and his FBI poster does not list 9/11. If you can cite sources to disprove or cast doubt on the foregoing, let me know. Until then, these facts should not be suppressed. My POV, Golbez, and what I am trying to express are of no concern of yours, and frankly, I am not that interesting. As long I am contributing factual, fully sourced info that is relevant and sheds light on the state of facts, and is compliant with WP rules, you and others are not empowerd to remove it because of any agenda you have for the article, or because you want to cultivate a certain view in the readers. Please cite the precedent. In any case, it cannot overrule WP rules. Aude, we can speculate about the reason the US has not indicted and we can cite evidence for OBL's guilt. It is quite irrelevant to the factual assertion I added. BWT, if you were to try to add much of your thoughtful reasoning it would probably constitute OR (unless you cited sources that set forth this reasoning explicitly). --
JustFacts 01:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter, please state the "misrepresentation." My contribution in no way "critiqued" the FBI notice. With respect to the last sentence of Aude's comment, the sentence I proposed never implied that the US doesn't think OBL did it. It simply asserts the state of the FBI notice.--
JustFacts
01:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter, you don't think the fact of whether or not the US's law enforcement apparatus officially seeks OBL is relevant to the 9/11 article? I do and I think most reasonable WP editors would agree. I agree that a sub-article should explore these issues further. I pledge to help on that if you will work on it. -- JustFacts 02:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
...the fact of whether or not the US's law enforcement apparatus officially seeks OBL...
As has been noted, they do officially seek OBL. There's no 'whether or not' about it. The thing that helps fuel conspiracy theories is that the Wanted poster doesn't mention 9/11. That doesn't mean the FBI doesn't acknowledge that Osama bin Laden is the leader of the organization responsible for the 9/11 attacks and that he authorized and aided those attacks. It isn't just the nefarious U.S. shadow government that puts forth this story, it's also every other country in the world.
Maintaining the facade that all you're doing is just innocently "adding important factual information" isn't fooling anybody. Your history of edits indicates a design to promote a 9/11 conspiracy theory. This "JustFacts" account was created solely for the purpose of propagating suggestions that 9/11 was some kind of government hoax. Please don't insult everybody else with pretense.
Insinuating the moonbat hypothesis that the U.S. government was complicit in or responsible for 9/11 (and apparently that it destroyed WTC 1, 2, and 7 with explosives, and secretly hit the Pentagon with a missile instead of a plane) rather than just was incompetent and lethargic in antiterrorism efforts is a waste of yours and everybody else's time. There are many more productive (or at least less harmful) things to do with the Internet. --
Mr. Billion
04:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps my remark was not explicit enough: the fact of whether or not the US's law enforcement apparatus officially seeks OBL FOR THE CRIME OF 9/11 is relevant to the 9/11 article. Given the context, I thought the words FOR THE CRIME OF 9/11 were understood. Golbez, I don't see how the FBI's 10 most wanted is relavant to this discussion. We are discussing OBL's FBI poster as it relates to 9/11. Hi Billion, I appreciate you taking such an interest in me and my views. If you would like to become friends I could tell you over tea what I think about the price of tea in China and you could tell me your views. In this forum however, as I tried to point out with the moon landing ideas (which I think you misunderstood--please do not attribute far fetched ideas to me) my personal views are quite irrelevant. WP rules prohibit ad hominem attacks. But not only are they against the WP rules (and fallacious), they are irrelevant. Again, one could be a convicted felon (Billion, please don't try to infer from this that I am) and believe that Elvis is alive (no Billion, that is not a "confession"), but each edit needs to considered on its own merits. In addition, since you seem so concerned about me, please dig a bit deeper and you'll find many edits quite unrelated to 9/11. -- JustFacts 15:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with JustFacts that the missing 911-link on the FBI poster would not suggest anything. It might suggest the FBI is not convinced that OBL is involved. It might be that there is just some bureaucratic reason for it. But I would like to see that SOURCED. (see below) — Xiutwel (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read my comment. We are in agreement, I believe.-- JustFacts 20:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry to notice that Aude has removed the dispute flag without acknowledging this clearly. I hope this was a sloppy mistake, not intent.
So we seem to agree that:
Until we get Reliable Sources for the above three facts, the dispute flag has to stay up, I'm afraid... — Xiutwel (talk) 18:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter, there is no consensus on the inclusion of this information into the article, only on the above three statements. However, I am not so convinced that all the explanations for the absence of 911 on the OBL FBI poster are totally correct. So I would like some sources, before I too agree that this information would be irrelevant to the article.
I wanted to add to the Attack section overview the line, "The hijackers made no monetary or political demands." but didn't want to start a firestorm. Does anyone object?-- PTR 02:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi there, hope everyone had a great weekend… Lockup again? Well, hope I'm here long enough because I really won't to add that little 911-Iraq variable (it will come up in more then one section, so I'll give it a bit more thought, since that addition should be brief and to the point…) Say, where are we at this point in time? Denial? Opposition? Acceptance… Anyway, I would also like to see 9/11 In Plane Site in "see also" division… Not to mention Loose Change? Why is such notable film not presented here? This move is seen by at least ten million viewers worldwide, and it should be in plain sight. Is there some reason why this two movies shouldn’t be added? And in regards to that unprecedented and colossal ineptitude Aude mentioned, yes, we could take a look at whereabouts of US military on that day. There should also (IMHO of course) be notes about Bush Saudi ties, those planes which flew when no one flew… and so on… -- Lovelight 11:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Peter. Lovelight, please select one fact that you think is not addressed in the article and provide a cite. Stop bombarding us with multiple issues mentioned in passing and lots of links. Once we resolve that one issue through discussion, you can then move to the next one. I am trying to be positive. -- JustFacts 22:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
please explain "poor faith"? — Xiutwel (talk) 18:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
For clarity, I copy from your talk page: — Xiutwel (talk)
This is getting stranger and stranger.
— Xiutwel (talk) 19:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Mmx1, I apologize for not referring to the talk page when replacing the dispute flag. You may have missed my statements there, since they were not at the bottom of the talk page. — Xiutwel (talk) 19:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not claim that someone who is not indicted, is not culpable. I just want to know why bin Laden is indicted for one attack, and not for the other. citation needed Is this a problem to answer? — Xiutwel (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The article, nor the talk page is not the Wikipedia:Reference_desk for answering your curiosities. Take your questions elsewhere. If you yourself cannot answer these questions, you are way out of line in inserting them into the article. -- Mmx1 19:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I have no intent of putting these questions into the article. Just the fact that the info is not on the poster, and anyone who thinks this is logical, should source that belief.
Do you agree with this?
I propose you give it some thought, if you cannot give arguments I will put the dispute flag back up tomorrow, making sure it refers to the right section this time - sorry! — Xiutwel (talk) 19:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Xiutwel, I agree with you. I don't see why we cannot include the fact that FBI does not seek OBL for the crime of 9/11 or the fact that OBL has noot been indicted for 9/11. I have not received a decent answer from anyone why my contribution with respect to the first fact (fully sourced to FBI web page) was deleted.-- JustFacts 22:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to put the dispute flag back up (I've seen no response to my queries). To summarize:
This is all I can see and say about it. I hope we can come to a decision, so we can resolve this and remove the dispute flag.— Xiutwel (talk) 09:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Discussion due to longevity to be continued on: - - Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks/FBI poster controversy -
— Xiutwel (talk) 10:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Point taken, I would like to resolve that missing (first big operation) issue in War on terrorism, however is seems how this will reflect in both, Responsibility and/or Public/Domestic response sections. Which makes all handling a bit tricky.., here is a quick draft with some of possible scenarios. Fact is: "US administration repeatedly connected events of 911 with Saddam Hussein and Iraq." This can be added to existing text in this manner:
Domestic response: The Bush Administration also invoked 9/11 as the reason for invasion of Iraq and initiation of secret National Security Agency operation, to eavesdrop on telephone and e-mail communications between the United States and people overseas without a warrant.
This would then reflect in War on Terrorism section, which is linked to equally named, equally disputed and unclear article (unfortunately, one can hardly find time to look at the talk page there…). It can certainly be added to existing material here, as in example below...
War on terrorism: In the aftermath of the attacks, many U.S. citizens held the view that they had "changed the world forever." The Bush administration declared a war on terrorism, with the stated goals of bringing Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda to justice and preventing the emergence of other terrorist networks. These goals would be accomplished by means including economic and military sanctions against states perceived as harboring terrorists and increasing global surveillance and intelligence sharing. Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq. The second-biggest operation outside of the United States was the overthrow of Afghanistan's Taliban government, by a U.S.-led coalition. The U.S. was not the only nation to increase its military readiness, with other notable examples being the Philippines and Indonesia, countries that have their own internal conflicts with Islamic extremist terrorism…
This fact can also stand as simple sentence in Public response or other mentioned sections... this is first draft, please help, suggest, share your links and opinions... Thanks.
Few citations, missing links, prewar and post 9/11 rhetoric's:
Some video streams:
If more citations are needed, I'll provide… -- Lovelight 19:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Lovelight, I change your heading from a level 1 to a level 2 heading.
For now, I have removed the following:
"Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq." - added by Lovelight [9]
While there may be a "whole wealth of references out there", none were provided here. Also, I think the wording needs work. As for mentioning Iraq in the "Domestic response" section, it doesn't fit there. Iraq isn't part of domestic reponse. -- Aude ( talk) 23:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
THIS article is about the events on 9/11/2001, not other events. The article is long enough and we are not going to go into a long winded analysis of the Iraq war and Saddam links to any terrorists organizations in this article...how many times do people need to be told this?...there are other articles that address these issues... Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and 2003 invasion of Iraq are the places to take this conversation. Contiued rantings about this subject should be removed as they are completely unproductive to improving THIS article.-- MONGO 12:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The article claims that a video tape of Osama was released in May 2006. I don't believe this is true at all -- elsewhere Wikipedia indicates that an audio tape was released consistent with what this article claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.82.207 ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 27 September 2006
The video tape with the supposed Osama is not enough evidence, it doen't even link him and events together, even if it is him in the video tape, which they haven't proven, it is still not enough to convict him.
I think we should use some caution when stating that OBL would have admitted to 911, since this relies largly on video evidence which may have been tempered with. So it's ok for me to say it, as long as there is some caution in the wording.
Truth is the first victim in any war
— Xiutwel (talk) 11:25, 27 September 2006
I agree with Xiutwell. -- JustFacts 23:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Allegedly, Reuters has decided not ever to use the word terrorist when describing events, in order to remain NPOV. An idea for wikipedia? — Xiutwel (talk) 09:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I made a change to this section which was reverted. Perhaps I shouldn't have cut as much of the paragraph as I did but I think some of the changes should stay. I changed the paragraph:
In the fourth aircraft, black box recordings revealed that—after discovering on their phones that planes had been deliberately crashed into buildings—crew and passengers attempted to seize control of the plane from the hijackers, who then rocked the plane in a failed attempt to subdue the passengers. According to 9-1-1 tapes, one of the passengers, Todd Beamer, had asked for the operator to pray with him before the passengers attempted to retake the aircraft. After praying, he simply said, "Let's roll." (The 9/11 Commission stated that Beamer later said "Roll it," most likely referring to a drink cart being used as a battering ram. This was, however, a separate incident, which took place after he had hung up on the operator. It is evidenced by cockpit recorders) The term "Let's roll" would later become the war cry for those fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near Shanksville in Stonycreek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania, at 10:03:11 a.m. local time (14:03:11 UTC). Based on the transcript of Flight 93's flight recorder, there is evidence that this crash was intentionally caused by the hijackers, by rolling the plane into an upside down position. The transcript appears to imply that the leader gave the order to roll the plane once it became evident that they would lose control of the plane to the passengers. There is a dispute about the exact timing of the crash as the seismic record indicates that the impact occurred at 10:06 a.m. The 9/11 Panel reported that captured al-Qaeda leader Khalid Shaikh Mohammed said that Flight 93's target was the United States Capitol, which was given the code name "the Faculty of Law."
To read:
On United Airlines Flight 93, black box recordings revealed that crew and passengers attempted to seize control of the plane from the hijackers after learning through phone calls that similiarly hijacked planes had been crashed into buildings that morning. According to the transcript of Flight 93's recorder one of the hijackers gave the order to roll the plane once it became evident that they would lose control of the plane to the passengers. Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near Shanksville in Stonycreek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania, at 10:03:11 a.m. local time (14:03:11 UTC). The 9/11 Panel reported that captured al-Qaeda leader Khalid Shaikh Mohammed said that Flight 93's target was the United States Capitol, which was given the code name "the Faculty of Law."
Since what happened on Flight 93 is fully described on the United Airlines Flight 93 page.
MONGO, I couldn't discuss this on your talk page, but what information did you object to having removed? -- PTR 20:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The link title "Evil succubus;" is unacceptable under WP:BLP as it gives the appearance of making a negative improperly sourced comment about a living person. Simple reinstatement of the title may result in your being blocked. If you wish to keep the title, it should be fully substantiated and acceptable as such to third party scrutiny. Tyrenius 03:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I request consensus for the addition of sourced and verified material to the Conspiracy Theories section Namely, that sources stated [10] [11] [12] [13] that the conspiracy theories were distracting from unreleased information discrediting the administration. This information has been found. It helps verify earlier sources statements that speculation into conspiracy theories distracted attention away from embarassing material (but it shouldn't be taken to mean that the administration engineered these theories).
SmokingGun: CIA Presidential Daily Briefing August 6, 2001: Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US
Washington Post 2006: CIA Briefed Rice July 2001 - Not explored in 9/11 Commission.
WTC7 - not explored in 9/11 commission either!!!
While it descredits for two people, it also gives large credit to the CIA [NSA] for trying to brief them on it.
Neutralaccounting 00:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Neutralaccounting 01:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
As I've said before, we need new section in this article on the criticisms of US gov't agencies/officials, which would include info on the briefing of Rice you mention, the FBI field office warnings (Coleen Riley, etc.), the allegations of FAA/NORAD mistakes on 9/11, the failure of NY fire dep't communication systems mentioned by the 9/11 Commiss report, etc. etc. We should really have a small section in this article with a link to a separate article on the subject. What does everyone think?-- JustFacts 17:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Would you please add to the very top that "this is the official story"?
In that way conspiracy theory and non conspiracy theory people would both be happy.
Given the incredible "coincidences" and luck 19 cave people clearly had you owe it to the world.
--[avid reader] 06:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-- Cireh 17:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC) I am agreed. In this article must be two topics: conspiracy and non conspiracy.
Peter cannot says "Islamofascists" is the true, because I don't believe him :D as many other will don't. Solution: two theorist... Because anybody can says conspiracy is the true and "Islamofascists" is the theory.
The World Trade Center and the Pentagon are not in any way the very symbols of the free world. Peter Grey 19:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
There isn't an "Official Report tagline" on Attack on Pearl Harbor, or Project Apollo, or United Nations. Why should there be one here? 75.33.140.40 05:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please Note : I used to be an Engineer in the Navy & I worked for airline security, as a Checkpoint Supervisor, Explosives detection specialist & Screener Training Instructor.
1 ) I can absolutely confirm that, in the wreckage of UA flt. # 93 @ Shanksville, the NTSB found a disposable BIC lighter that had been illegally altered w/ a fold - out stiletto - style knife blade. I saw the FAA alert memo, w/ included Xerox'd photo of the knife.
2 ) Both towers in N. Y. were weakened by blunt - force trauma to their structural columns & support beams. The main failure, causing their collapse was what is called Tertiary Creep Fracture, of the beamwork @ the damaged floors; exascerbated by the burning high - temp. Jet fuel & the weight of the floors above the impact points.
Admittedly, the following will likely be considered conspiracy theories but, I believe these points answer many questions & should be researched.
3 ) It's very likely that UA flt. # 93 WAS shot - down. The U.S. Secret Service has USAF F - 16 "Ready - Alert" Fighters detached to them & stationed @ Andrews AFB, Maryland. They would NOT be under military control ! Their being sortied would have been classified & probably not known to the 9/11 Commission. When the flights Cockpit Voice Recorder was recovered from Shanksville, right after the incident, it was then stated that their conversations could not be clearly made out. Suddenly, 3 years later, they could be !?
4 ) Pakistan's Inter - Services Intelligence ( ISI ) Group has long been suspected of ties to Al - Q'aeda, Kashmiri Insurgent Groups ( That tried to destroy the Indian Parliament a few months after 9/11. ) & the CIA. The CIA's ties go back to covert assistance of the Afghan Mujaheddin resistance, during the 1980's Soviet / Afghan War. Osama Bin - Laden was helping to supply weapons & Intel. to the resistance, through Pakistan - w/ the help of the ISI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.62.74.137
the number of air bases where fighter planes are kept on alert has dwindled sharply in recent years, one of the generals who runs the system told Newsday. And on Sept. 11, they no longer included any bases close to two obvious terrorist targets - Washington, D.C., and New York City. So the military had to use planes from air bases considerable distances away from the two cities. The fighters dispatched to New York came from Otis Air National Guard Base on Cape Cod, Mass., 153 miles from the World Trade Center. - Newsday, 9/23/2001 - article available here
The fighter jets launched toward Washington took off not from Andrews Air Force Base, 15 miles from the capital, but from Langley Air Force Base near Hampton, Va., 130 miles from Washington. When Flight 77 smashed into the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m., those fighters were still 105 miles from the scene. - Newsday, 9/23/2001 - [14]
Despite Andrews Air Force Base's proximity to the capital, fighter jets don't "sit alert" there the way they do at Langley, ready to take to the air in 15 minutes. Until Sept. 11, one defense official said, they didn't have to - fighters at Langley would have plenty of time to intercept any enemy aircraft coming from outside the United States. On Sept. 11, the Langley jets still were 105 miles away when the Pentagon was struck. - Newsday, 9/23/2001 - [15]
Please note: The following does not relate to the so called "No Plane Theory." Instead, it explores the available facts regarding whether or not American Airlines flights 11 and 77 actually flew on September 11, 2001. If the evidence is weighted against the actual occurence of these flights, it then begs the following 2 questions: 1. Why does the official explanation of the September 11, 2001 events ignore this evidence? 2. If American Airlines flights 11 and 77 did not fly on September 11, 2001, then who and what was actually responsible for the damage to the north tower of the World Trade center, and to the Pentagon building?
References to the 911 plane crashes, which appear in Wikipedia article [17], have American Airlines flight 11 hitting the World Trade Center's north tower at 8:46 AM, and American Airlines flight 77 hitting the Pentagon at 9:37 AM. According to flight departure statistics available from the US government's Bureau of Transportation Statistics website [18], there are no records of American Airlines flights 11 or 77 leaving their scheduled origin airports on the day of the WTC or Pentagon attacks. The statistics do show that American Airlines flight 11 was listed as a regularly scheduled flight departing from Boston's Logan Airport, with a scheduled local(Eastern)departure time of 7:45 AM. The statistics also show that American Airlines flight 77 was a regularly scheduled flight departing from Washington DC's Dulles Airport, with a scheduled local departure time of 8:10 AM. Data is shown for flight 11 and flight 77 for the two days prior to September 11, 2001, but for September 11 no data is available for either of these flights. American Airlines is required by Federal regulations, as stated in 14 CFR, Chapter II, Section 234.4, to report 21 data factors for all flights, both scheduled and unscheduled. These statistical factors are fully defined in a online viewable, and downloadable pdf format document, from the Bureau of Transportation at [19], and Section 234.4 is viewable on page 2 of that document. Public viewing of flight Detailed Statistics for Departures is limited to 12 of the 21 mandated statistical fields, and includes the following data: Carrier code (AA in this case), date of scheduled flight, flight number (shown as 0011 and 0077 for flights 11 and 77 respectively), tail number (this is shown because any plane owned by the airline can be assigned to the flight on a particular day. The statistics show, for example, that on September 9, 2001, flight 11 was assigned to a plane having tail number N315AA, but that the same flight was assigned to a plane with tail number N321AA on September 10, 2001), destination airport, scheduled departure time, actual departure time (this is when the plane leaves the departure gate, after being loaded), scheduled elapsed time in minutes, actual elapsed time in minutes (this would be the total elapsed time from gate departure to gate arrival at the destination airport), departure delay in minutes, wheels-off time (the time at which the departing plane leaves the runway and becomes fully airborne), and taxi-out time (the time required for the airplane to move from the daparting gate to a take-off ready position on the runway. Any scheduled flight that actually departs an airport will have all of these 12 data statistics displayed for public viewing as required by the aforementioned Federal regulations. Bureau of Statistics employees are able to view the 9 additional data fields not available to the public, and these include information about cancelled or delayed departures and reasons for such cancellations or delays. The key data fields of interest, in this topic, are the "actual departure time" (gate departure), and the "wheels-off time." Both of these fields read "00.00" for American Airlines flights 11 and 77 on September 11, 2001, which appears to indicate that neither flight departed the boarding gate, and neither became airborne on that day. Furthermore, the tail number for each of these flights is listed as "unknown." It is logical to conclude, therefore, that no plane was assigned to either flight. The fact that a plane crashes does not nullify the requirement for reporting of Departure Statistics. Indeed, both United Airlines flights 175 [20] and 93 [21], which are also said to have crashed on September 11, 2001, do have Departure Statistics reported. If American Airlines flights 11 and 77 did in fact fly on September 11, 2001, this raises the question as to why American Airlines is exempted from reporting flights that crash before reaching their scheduled destination. Regarding this question, it should be noted that Departure Statistics are also not available for American Airlines flight 587 [22], which crashed in Queens, New York on November 12, 2001, shortly after takeoff. Rickoff ( talk) 10:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
In the international response section, do domestic US civil liberty group's objections need to be raised? If they were international groups I would understand, but bringing up the ACLU in a so-called "international" section does not make sense...
Hi all, I've finally decided to Be Bold and include estimates of the three WTC building collapse times. I've held off on adding these estimates until now because I had difficulty finding a credible source which we could all agree upon. Well, I've just come accross a link here: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm that lists WTC 1 collapse as 9 seconds and WTC 2 as 11 seconds (both are listed as estimates) While this link doesn't include an estimate for WTC 7, I have seen multiple references to a number of 6.6 seconds. Since I don't have a credible reference for WTC 7, I have left it as an ambiguous 'under 7 seconds'...
Please feel free to clean up the grammar. I admit this section is awkwardly worded. My apologies, I simply wanted to add the facts as soon as possible.
Anyone have a credible source for WTC 7 building collapse time? Oh, and please don't revert this good faith, credibly sourced, factual reference - at least not without explaining your actions on this talk page. Digiterata 22:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, please explain what I have done to deserve these reverts? I have cited relevant facts (WTC Building Collapse times) that document a notable event. I have not added any hint of conspiracy theory foolishness. I have cited only clearly credible sources (National Institute of Standards and Testing). Mmx if NIST is an unreliable citation as you have noted on your rationale for reverting, we may have to make some much more fundamental changes to this article. Digiterata 18:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2.
From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.
{uninterested third party} Remember
3RR, people. --
DarthBinky
03:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's an exercise.
If Person A adds something to an article...
... and Person B reverts it...
And Person A readds it...
... and Person C reverts it...
And Person A readds it...
... and Person D reverts it...
What on earth makes Person A think that he represents consensus? "Go to the talk page to find consensus" doesn't work if you're apparently the only one pushing that entry, Lovelight, so stop pretending. --
Golbez
03:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
If you choose to dig deep into the history of this talk page, or if you just check recent additions you will see what you already know. We are working on burning, disturbing.., one would say Itchy and Scratchy issue here. More important, and without any exaggerations whatsoever, we are talking about one of the most important events in history of mankind. What happened on 911 (9/11) changed one's life deeply and profoundly wherever one may be. We live in the age of fear & terror which is (proven to be) suitable for only one thing… unnecessary death, violence, hate and destruction. We have witnessed unjust, absolutely false war which is directly linked to this horrible act. We are witnessing how our freedom is turning into slavery (literary), and the sheer fact that we had warnings which stated how editing and discussing of this article is "not allowed" by US Government is good example as any. If this affair caused violation of Geneva conventions, if this event served as foundation of Patriot Act and (il)legal wiretapping, if this event leads to such terms as "islamo-nazi fascism", then we have to be absolutely clear on what and why happened. Now, instead of intended attacks on Mongo, his superiors and his little drugz (I'll rather say, Mongo, I honestly carry no grudge, I knocked, and you locked the door, I knocked again and you pulled your cutting knife, to make things better, when I asked why did you cut me, you shared a insult… so to say… after all you did change that picture there, thank you for your modesty…), I just won't to make one thing clear. I have no hidden agenda; I have no reason (except philanthropy perhaps) whatsoever to keep any side in this discussion. You have to understand that, I simply won't be considered a "CT lunatic", and I'll even restrain to call some of you that in spite the fact that you are persistently breaking the law's of physics. I won't everyone in this world, conscious or in diapers to understand where we stand. US congress is under attack by that very Emperor from Star Wars, they resist rebelliously, but I won't risk such situation in which Skywalker will see that Death Star for the first time and say: "My God look at the size of that thing." I'm not asking anyone to lie, I'm not asking for the anarchy; I'm not asking for pulling out of Iraq tomorrow, I'm not asking for opium fields in Afghanistan. I'm not asking you to share your knowledge about needs for global economy, freefall or any such nonsense. I'm asking you to step forward and do what decent people do. There are such huge faults in this article, such indifference to present and present facts… simply unbearable. Related articles, such as one called conspiracy theories… are even poorer, one would allege disastrous. There are undisputable fact's (to some new, to some very old), I wont these facts to be recognized and implemented. There was a particular section here called foreknowledge, if you would please return to that point and discuss how, why and with what measurement our foreknowledge should be added to article. I sincerely hope that mentioning put options, inside trading, all around warnings, well timed war games, time-lines, and other undisputed facts won't do any harm to the article. It will make it far better…
PS. I know this is a bit blahbish…. However, this issue needs some perspective and this sort of intellectual gibberish is forced upon me… This was Act 1, you can see my initial thoughts (and my massage to any unbiased administrators) in chapter 9. -- Lovelight 17:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I am a reader, not an active user of wikipedia. I will make this short and brief: How can you write that they where terrorist attacks? and that Al-Qaida was behind? when so many facts points in other directions? and no metion of the possible governmental involment?except from under the heading of "conspiracy theroies".? or the fact that it is highly possible that explosives where used to bring the towers down?or the fact that they where buildt to withstand an airliner of the size that crashed? or the fact that WTC 7 collapsed without being hit by anything?and the way they collapsed was that of a controlled demolition. ypu have chosen to buy into the official US goernment version of the incidents, instead of giving more weight to indepenant and by far more reliable sources. I feel sick to my stomach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.196.183 ( talk • contribs)
I'm new here but I've read the last three archived pages of discussion and all these points have been discussed over and over again. -- PTR 17:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello, this is the second message I post on this supposely "free" talk page since the first one has been deleted for some obscure reason. It regards the conspiracy theory. Just go and have a look on the following web site: www.reopen911.org
It is an enormous oversight that there isn't a single mention of the FEMA-coordinated search-and-rescue operations involving over 350 specially trained dogs and handlers. This was the largest deployment of search-and-rescue teams in U.S. history (presumably in the world), and I believe it deserves a mention.
Important/useful links:
Picture Gallery: The World Trade Center's Heroic Rescue Dogs - Photos of 9/11 dogs in action
FEMA - Federal Emergency Management Agency - 9/11 Info page - The definitive source
National Search Dog Foundation - more info
Each of these links will provide a wealth of information regarding the subject. 72.78.222.99 18:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC) Lyn T. 2006.09.19
I wouldn't call it enormous, but I think a mention would be a good addition to the article KBecks 22:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, maybe not "enormous" but definitely significant and, as Lovelight said, refreshing. Not everything has to be bleak about 9/11 :) I just submitted a minor edit to the "Rescue, recovery, and compensation" section. Hope it gets approved. Thanks for the feedback, folks. 72.78.222.99 11:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Lyn T.
The beginning of this section and the title of the timeline page both are misleadingly worded.
Main article: September 11, 2001 attacks timeline for the day of the attacks
It seems to be saying that the September 11, 2001 attacks the timeline for the day of the attacks. Could this be reworded to read September 11, 2001 timeline for the day of the attacks?
Can the text be reworded to include the airports the planes departed from instead of East Coast airports?
-- PTR 19:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I know you are all trying to decide what is important content (and you should be praised for all your hard work) but some focus should go on how the article is written. Some of the sentences are not encylopedic and others are out of place. Examples:
No one on board any of the hijacked aircraft survived.[9] This could be inserted into the following paragraph as ...including 246 on the four planes (no one on board, etc.)...
The fatalities were in the thousands, with 2,973 people killed, including 246 on the four planes, 2,602 in New York City in the towers and on the ground, and 125 at the Pentagon.[10]Among the fatalities were 343 New York City Fire Department firefighters, 23 New York City Police Department officers, and 37 Port Authority police officers.[11] An additional 24 people remain listed as missing in the attack on the World Trade Center to this day.[12]
The first sentence should be rewritten as - There were 2,973 fatalities...
The last sentence as - An additional 24 people remain listed as missing.[12] -- PTR 20:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there is a Fatalities section and the fatalities are listed in the introduction would there be a problem with removing this para from the Attacks section and combining into the Fatalities section. The paragraph (and the one below it) breaks up the flow of the section and is repeated information.
The following paragraph also breaks up the flow of the section and could be moved to a section called Damages beneath the Fatalities section. An explanation or citation for the second to last para (Communications equipment...) would be helpful and the one sentence hanging at the end regarding the Pentagon seems an afterthought. A Damages section would be a simple summary of damages with links to the appropriate pages for additional information.
Let me know if anyone would mind these changes. -- PTR 13:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I have an acquaintance who told me just last week, he lost his grandparents to suffication 5 blocks from WTC on 9/11 in that dust cloud, their windows were open. This was a revelation to me. I wonder what the actual numbers are to this type of death and why the official #'s are accident sites specific. Beyond that these numbers may accrue over the years with the toxic cleanup atmosphere that is just now coming out, but, will not be 100% confirmable to WTC. ( Greg0658 03:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC))
there are two theories of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. only one is shown in this article. the other state's that the attacks where ordered by bush so that he could invade Iraq and have an excuse to pass the patriot act. we need to put in this article "there are to theories of what happened on 9/11" then list this article as one, and the Iraq theory as the other. since none of us where there when the attacks where planned we won't know for sure until history has played out. i suggest that until that time we list both.
I added short section as follows: - The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) "failed miserably in its duty" to alert the military of possibly hijacked aircraft (New York Times, August 13, 2006). Also, for more than two years after September 11, NORAD and the (FAA) provided false information about the response to the 9/11 hijackings in testimony and media appearances to the 9/11 Commission (Washington Post, August 2, 2006). NORAD and the FAA officials stated that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that fighter jets had been scrambled to intercept planes in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington, D.C. For example, Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the 9/11 Commission determined that the airliner was not even hijacked until 12 minutes later. According to later testimony, the military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania. - The Commission was forced to use subpoenas to obtain the cooperation of the NORAD and FAA to release evidence such as audiotapes (Washington Post, August 2, 2006). - NORAD and the FAA's reluctance to release the tapes, e-mails and other evidence, along with their erroneous public statements, led some of the 9/11 Commission's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on September 11. "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on September 11, said in a recent interview (Washington Post, August 2, 2006). No U.S. government official has been held accountable for their failures on 9/11 or for the subsequent false information they gave about the events of 9/11.
Mongo, why did you delete? Please refrain from deleting without at least attempting to provide an explanation for your actions. I find actions like that dismissive and high-handed in violation of WP's consensus-oriented approach. -- JustFacts 22:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Morton, why did you delete: However, the FBI "wanted" release for Osama bin Laden does not list 9/11 as a crime for which the FBI seeks him (( http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm). Please read link. Please refrain from using language bordering on vulgarity. Instead, you may wish to engage in civilized debate in accordance with WP rules. I will give you a chance to respond before restoring contribution.-- JustFacts 22:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
By "hopelessly in violation of NPOV" you mean what exactly? That it is critical of some government officials? I am suggesting the start of a section on accountability. If you have other sources on this you can add them for "balance." I do not see where in the article the info I added (or anything like it) is reflected. As an aside, can we agree that it is very impolite to remove fully sourced contributions without a decent explanation (you were not the one, I know)? With respect to the FBI procedures, what rules of procedure would make my contribution irrelevant? Please point to the discussion, if applicable. -- JustFacts 14:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, "failed miserably" is the conclusion reached by the NYT based on the record of incompetence on 9/11. We could take out "miserably" and list the failings if necessary. But taking out the whole section? That's supposed to be NPOV, to remove the whole section? It shows POV to remove any criticism. By the way, is "hopelessly in violation" NPOV?-- JustFacts 17:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the FBI poster, I am assuming you're referring to this discusion: [ [7]]. The "explanation" of why the FBI poster for OBL does not list 9/11 is that OBL has not been charged with that crime. But that explanation begs the larger question quite relevant to the 9/11 article. How could the US gov't have sufficient evidence for charges for, say, the USS Cole bombing, but insufficient evidence against Osama for 9/11? How could the gov't be sure enough about Osama's connection with 9/11 to proclaim it publicly and attack and invade a sovereign country (Afghanistan), yet have insufficient evidence for filing criminal charges? Either they have sufficient evidence, in which case why not file charges as they have with his other bombings, or they do not, in which case invading Afghanistan and declaring a global War on Terrorism was factually baseless. As far as our article is concerned, since the article has a whole section on Osama in the responsibility section, the facts of the lacuna on the FBI wanted release and the lack of criminal charges are quite important, I would think. -- JustFacts 17:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Billion, here is a link you requested: [ [8]] . I will ignore your guess as to my "ultimate purpose" as it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and is inappropriate in this forum. Please see my comment to Golbez about mind reading. For all you know I believe NASA faked the manned lunar landings. -- JustFacts 20:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
If no one else has any further objections I will repost section on "Accountability" (see text above) to the article. I note that the editor who deleted my contribution with no explanation has so far not stated his objection in response to my query. I find that discurteous.-- JustFacts 03:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, since we agree that accountability is an important issue, we should create the section. In terms of singling out NORAM and FAA, we have to start building the section somehow. It might as well be with the lead US agencies in charge on the day of 9/11. I heartily agree that other agencies and possibly specific officials with those agencies should also be covered. But we should not hold up the accountability section if we are off to a good start simply because it is not yet comprehensive. There is only so much I can do at one time. Conversely, if I spent the next few weeks finding sources and proposed on this page a full blown section on accountability, it would be even more difficult to reach concensus on adding it because there would be quibling on various details. Any section on accountability will be susceptible POV charges. How do you discuss accountability without doling out some potential blame. IF we water it down we could also err on the other side of POV (POV: the US agencies acted reasonably well or at least with no flaws worthy of mention)--the current problem with the article. -- JustFacts 17:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure that "accountability" is necessarily needed as a new section. It is probably enough to state breifly how air traffic is handled and who/what was tracking the specific flights that day. How they were tracked and who was in charge of judging the threat. The wikipedia should definitely avoid doling out "accountability" rather discuss the facts, chain of command, who made what calls regarding threats, what proposals were made, what hijacking protocols are, etc. Accountability lends itself to POV problems. The article can even state what experts suggest should or could have been done and should definitely cite the 9/11 report and what it concluded were problems with the events of that day leading up to the acts of terrorism themselves. Wikipedia is not really the place to "hold people/organizations accountable" and that idea should be avoided. But, wikipedia should definitely discuss the facts of the day and specific instances that have been reported to be poorly handled and why. If it remains factual and avoids the less credible claims of what happened that day I think a section like this would do just fine (and of course it will be hashed over by editors for a while). !@# Rtrev 19:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Please read (or re-read) my proposed contribution on accountability near the top of this section and tell me whether your comments are still valid. I think we are in agreement. My proposed contribution makes statements about federal shortcomings (and misrepresentations after the fact) based on reliable major news accounts.-- JustFacts 20:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think your original statements sound too much like a listing of every criticism from major news sources. I don't think that is neccessary or appropriate. Instead, it should be exactly who was in charge of what aspects of that day, what are the official protocols for a hijacking, and how were those adhered to or not adhered to. Was anyone involved in the actual air control and tracking that day critical of events? What were the official suggestions for change in the 9/11 report. Major media can carp all they want because hindsight is always 20/20. The wikipedia shouldn't assist in doling out blame no matter what major news source wants to dole it out. Unless their was legal negligence or official blame, firings etc. then I don't think it is appropriate to list evry complaint from national TV, print, and internet news. !@# Rtrev 16:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you're proposing a more ambitious analysis than what I had in mind and may come close the original research problem. The 9/11 Commission typically avoided holding agencies let alone individuals accountable by analyzing what they should have dome compared to what they did do. By the way, I don't think the media have typically not been critical of specific US agencies. In response to another point you raise, my contribution draws from one or two articles and is therefore not susceptible to the charge that I am cherry picking all the worst characterizations. Again, my contribution focuses on some of the key criticisms of the lead agencies. That I think is the way to begin building this section of the article.-- JustFacts 23:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
No, not just articles critical of gov't, wherever did you get that idea? I have no problem starting a separate article on the subject if you think this one is already too long. Would you pitch in to such an article on accountability? -- JustFacts 16:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
In view of the many notable sources criticizing various aspects of gov't agency performance before, on and after 9/11, the article as it is now has a major flaw: the reader gets no sense of this. The section I proposed has several examples of such criticisms. Does no one beside me have a problem with this? The reader of the 9/11 article is given the impression that there is no criticism of gov't agencies or flaw in response on 9/11 or thereafter worthy of comment. PTR, you cite the examples I provide from RS then dismiss any possibility of accountability? I acknowledge that gov't agencies/individuals have not been held accountable for negligence etc.--in fact this fact should be mentioned, but that should not stop us from citing criticisms. In terms of POV, we should also cite sources extolling gov't response where available (e.g. NYC firefighters who dutifully went to their deaths by the hundreds--we would need sources of course). -- JustFacts 20:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Criticism/accountability. Makes no difference to me. I thought "accountability" would be less POV since "criticism" will be immediately attacked here as focusing on "bad news" (actions not taken that should have been as standard operating procedure, etc.) I agree that the article is already quite long. Aftermath article would not be suitable, since many of the criticisms are about events before and on 9/11. Short paragraph here with link to a separate article on the subject would be best, I think. If anyone is interested in starting to write this let me know as I have never started a new article myself: "Criticism of gov't agencies for 9/11 related actions and omissions" How is that?-- JustFacts 16:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Tom, you reverted two edits which both stem from the Muckraker Report. I do not see your point yet. I revert and reformulate, for starters. Could you please, on this talk page, elaborate on your view concerning: ...
...so that we can al work together on this article, in stead of "fight" ? Thank you! — Xiutwel (talk) 08:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Golbez, I'm sorry you feel this way. Similarly, one could argue that the only point to remove this neutral, unbiased, information, is to push the government POV. The dispute flag goes up. If anyone would like to point me to previous discussion / consensus, please provide a date (from your own edit history?) or link to the talk page, because I don't see it.
What a waste of our energy this is, wikipedia !!! Should we not have a broad discussion on how to allow for several 'POV' facts simulataniously in order to make all 911 articles NPOV?
— Xiutwel (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Please see my comment in the previous section. Let's continue the FB poster discussion here. Tom, please explain why on the question of what is contained in the FBI "wanted" poster the FBI's website showing the "wanted" poster is "not a relialbe source" and is "innuendo." Golbez, you seem to possess a degree of mind reading skill in identifying the intent of the editor making an edit. You then seem to take the position that you can decide that such an intention is inapproriate based on some unidentified set of criteria. The final step seems to be to decide that you have been empowered to remove any contributions, no matter how relevant, compliant with WP rules, and fully sourced, because it is incompatible with the intention you decided existed which you decided was inappropriate. -- JustFacts 20:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The only point of this edit is to attempt to insinuate that the government doesn't think Osama did it. False. The 10 Most Wanted list requires someone be indicted, and the Justice Department has not yet, for whatever reason. My mindreading is skillful - you are subtly trying to express a POV not entirely supported by the facts. I can indeed decide, because five years of precedent has told us that such implied stuff isn't allowed here. -- Golbez 21:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
"The only point of this edit," Golbez, is to inform the reader of the facts. The US claims OBL is behind 9/11. The US has not indicted OBL and his FBI poster does not list 9/11. If you can cite sources to disprove or cast doubt on the foregoing, let me know. Until then, these facts should not be suppressed. My POV, Golbez, and what I am trying to express are of no concern of yours, and frankly, I am not that interesting. As long I am contributing factual, fully sourced info that is relevant and sheds light on the state of facts, and is compliant with WP rules, you and others are not empowerd to remove it because of any agenda you have for the article, or because you want to cultivate a certain view in the readers. Please cite the precedent. In any case, it cannot overrule WP rules. Aude, we can speculate about the reason the US has not indicted and we can cite evidence for OBL's guilt. It is quite irrelevant to the factual assertion I added. BWT, if you were to try to add much of your thoughtful reasoning it would probably constitute OR (unless you cited sources that set forth this reasoning explicitly). --
JustFacts 01:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter, please state the "misrepresentation." My contribution in no way "critiqued" the FBI notice. With respect to the last sentence of Aude's comment, the sentence I proposed never implied that the US doesn't think OBL did it. It simply asserts the state of the FBI notice.--
JustFacts
01:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter, you don't think the fact of whether or not the US's law enforcement apparatus officially seeks OBL is relevant to the 9/11 article? I do and I think most reasonable WP editors would agree. I agree that a sub-article should explore these issues further. I pledge to help on that if you will work on it. -- JustFacts 02:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
...the fact of whether or not the US's law enforcement apparatus officially seeks OBL...
As has been noted, they do officially seek OBL. There's no 'whether or not' about it. The thing that helps fuel conspiracy theories is that the Wanted poster doesn't mention 9/11. That doesn't mean the FBI doesn't acknowledge that Osama bin Laden is the leader of the organization responsible for the 9/11 attacks and that he authorized and aided those attacks. It isn't just the nefarious U.S. shadow government that puts forth this story, it's also every other country in the world.
Maintaining the facade that all you're doing is just innocently "adding important factual information" isn't fooling anybody. Your history of edits indicates a design to promote a 9/11 conspiracy theory. This "JustFacts" account was created solely for the purpose of propagating suggestions that 9/11 was some kind of government hoax. Please don't insult everybody else with pretense.
Insinuating the moonbat hypothesis that the U.S. government was complicit in or responsible for 9/11 (and apparently that it destroyed WTC 1, 2, and 7 with explosives, and secretly hit the Pentagon with a missile instead of a plane) rather than just was incompetent and lethargic in antiterrorism efforts is a waste of yours and everybody else's time. There are many more productive (or at least less harmful) things to do with the Internet. --
Mr. Billion
04:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps my remark was not explicit enough: the fact of whether or not the US's law enforcement apparatus officially seeks OBL FOR THE CRIME OF 9/11 is relevant to the 9/11 article. Given the context, I thought the words FOR THE CRIME OF 9/11 were understood. Golbez, I don't see how the FBI's 10 most wanted is relavant to this discussion. We are discussing OBL's FBI poster as it relates to 9/11. Hi Billion, I appreciate you taking such an interest in me and my views. If you would like to become friends I could tell you over tea what I think about the price of tea in China and you could tell me your views. In this forum however, as I tried to point out with the moon landing ideas (which I think you misunderstood--please do not attribute far fetched ideas to me) my personal views are quite irrelevant. WP rules prohibit ad hominem attacks. But not only are they against the WP rules (and fallacious), they are irrelevant. Again, one could be a convicted felon (Billion, please don't try to infer from this that I am) and believe that Elvis is alive (no Billion, that is not a "confession"), but each edit needs to considered on its own merits. In addition, since you seem so concerned about me, please dig a bit deeper and you'll find many edits quite unrelated to 9/11. -- JustFacts 15:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with JustFacts that the missing 911-link on the FBI poster would not suggest anything. It might suggest the FBI is not convinced that OBL is involved. It might be that there is just some bureaucratic reason for it. But I would like to see that SOURCED. (see below) — Xiutwel (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read my comment. We are in agreement, I believe.-- JustFacts 20:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry to notice that Aude has removed the dispute flag without acknowledging this clearly. I hope this was a sloppy mistake, not intent.
So we seem to agree that:
Until we get Reliable Sources for the above three facts, the dispute flag has to stay up, I'm afraid... — Xiutwel (talk) 18:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter, there is no consensus on the inclusion of this information into the article, only on the above three statements. However, I am not so convinced that all the explanations for the absence of 911 on the OBL FBI poster are totally correct. So I would like some sources, before I too agree that this information would be irrelevant to the article.
I wanted to add to the Attack section overview the line, "The hijackers made no monetary or political demands." but didn't want to start a firestorm. Does anyone object?-- PTR 02:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi there, hope everyone had a great weekend… Lockup again? Well, hope I'm here long enough because I really won't to add that little 911-Iraq variable (it will come up in more then one section, so I'll give it a bit more thought, since that addition should be brief and to the point…) Say, where are we at this point in time? Denial? Opposition? Acceptance… Anyway, I would also like to see 9/11 In Plane Site in "see also" division… Not to mention Loose Change? Why is such notable film not presented here? This move is seen by at least ten million viewers worldwide, and it should be in plain sight. Is there some reason why this two movies shouldn’t be added? And in regards to that unprecedented and colossal ineptitude Aude mentioned, yes, we could take a look at whereabouts of US military on that day. There should also (IMHO of course) be notes about Bush Saudi ties, those planes which flew when no one flew… and so on… -- Lovelight 11:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Peter. Lovelight, please select one fact that you think is not addressed in the article and provide a cite. Stop bombarding us with multiple issues mentioned in passing and lots of links. Once we resolve that one issue through discussion, you can then move to the next one. I am trying to be positive. -- JustFacts 22:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
please explain "poor faith"? — Xiutwel (talk) 18:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
For clarity, I copy from your talk page: — Xiutwel (talk)
This is getting stranger and stranger.
— Xiutwel (talk) 19:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Mmx1, I apologize for not referring to the talk page when replacing the dispute flag. You may have missed my statements there, since they were not at the bottom of the talk page. — Xiutwel (talk) 19:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not claim that someone who is not indicted, is not culpable. I just want to know why bin Laden is indicted for one attack, and not for the other. citation needed Is this a problem to answer? — Xiutwel (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The article, nor the talk page is not the Wikipedia:Reference_desk for answering your curiosities. Take your questions elsewhere. If you yourself cannot answer these questions, you are way out of line in inserting them into the article. -- Mmx1 19:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I have no intent of putting these questions into the article. Just the fact that the info is not on the poster, and anyone who thinks this is logical, should source that belief.
Do you agree with this?
I propose you give it some thought, if you cannot give arguments I will put the dispute flag back up tomorrow, making sure it refers to the right section this time - sorry! — Xiutwel (talk) 19:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Xiutwel, I agree with you. I don't see why we cannot include the fact that FBI does not seek OBL for the crime of 9/11 or the fact that OBL has noot been indicted for 9/11. I have not received a decent answer from anyone why my contribution with respect to the first fact (fully sourced to FBI web page) was deleted.-- JustFacts 22:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to put the dispute flag back up (I've seen no response to my queries). To summarize:
This is all I can see and say about it. I hope we can come to a decision, so we can resolve this and remove the dispute flag.— Xiutwel (talk) 09:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Discussion due to longevity to be continued on: - - Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks/FBI poster controversy -
— Xiutwel (talk) 10:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Point taken, I would like to resolve that missing (first big operation) issue in War on terrorism, however is seems how this will reflect in both, Responsibility and/or Public/Domestic response sections. Which makes all handling a bit tricky.., here is a quick draft with some of possible scenarios. Fact is: "US administration repeatedly connected events of 911 with Saddam Hussein and Iraq." This can be added to existing text in this manner:
Domestic response: The Bush Administration also invoked 9/11 as the reason for invasion of Iraq and initiation of secret National Security Agency operation, to eavesdrop on telephone and e-mail communications between the United States and people overseas without a warrant.
This would then reflect in War on Terrorism section, which is linked to equally named, equally disputed and unclear article (unfortunately, one can hardly find time to look at the talk page there…). It can certainly be added to existing material here, as in example below...
War on terrorism: In the aftermath of the attacks, many U.S. citizens held the view that they had "changed the world forever." The Bush administration declared a war on terrorism, with the stated goals of bringing Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda to justice and preventing the emergence of other terrorist networks. These goals would be accomplished by means including economic and military sanctions against states perceived as harboring terrorists and increasing global surveillance and intelligence sharing. Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq. The second-biggest operation outside of the United States was the overthrow of Afghanistan's Taliban government, by a U.S.-led coalition. The U.S. was not the only nation to increase its military readiness, with other notable examples being the Philippines and Indonesia, countries that have their own internal conflicts with Islamic extremist terrorism…
This fact can also stand as simple sentence in Public response or other mentioned sections... this is first draft, please help, suggest, share your links and opinions... Thanks.
Few citations, missing links, prewar and post 9/11 rhetoric's:
Some video streams:
If more citations are needed, I'll provide… -- Lovelight 19:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Lovelight, I change your heading from a level 1 to a level 2 heading.
For now, I have removed the following:
"Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq." - added by Lovelight [9]
While there may be a "whole wealth of references out there", none were provided here. Also, I think the wording needs work. As for mentioning Iraq in the "Domestic response" section, it doesn't fit there. Iraq isn't part of domestic reponse. -- Aude ( talk) 23:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
THIS article is about the events on 9/11/2001, not other events. The article is long enough and we are not going to go into a long winded analysis of the Iraq war and Saddam links to any terrorists organizations in this article...how many times do people need to be told this?...there are other articles that address these issues... Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and 2003 invasion of Iraq are the places to take this conversation. Contiued rantings about this subject should be removed as they are completely unproductive to improving THIS article.-- MONGO 12:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The article claims that a video tape of Osama was released in May 2006. I don't believe this is true at all -- elsewhere Wikipedia indicates that an audio tape was released consistent with what this article claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.82.207 ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 27 September 2006
The video tape with the supposed Osama is not enough evidence, it doen't even link him and events together, even if it is him in the video tape, which they haven't proven, it is still not enough to convict him.
I think we should use some caution when stating that OBL would have admitted to 911, since this relies largly on video evidence which may have been tempered with. So it's ok for me to say it, as long as there is some caution in the wording.
Truth is the first victim in any war
— Xiutwel (talk) 11:25, 27 September 2006
I agree with Xiutwell. -- JustFacts 23:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Allegedly, Reuters has decided not ever to use the word terrorist when describing events, in order to remain NPOV. An idea for wikipedia? — Xiutwel (talk) 09:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I made a change to this section which was reverted. Perhaps I shouldn't have cut as much of the paragraph as I did but I think some of the changes should stay. I changed the paragraph:
In the fourth aircraft, black box recordings revealed that—after discovering on their phones that planes had been deliberately crashed into buildings—crew and passengers attempted to seize control of the plane from the hijackers, who then rocked the plane in a failed attempt to subdue the passengers. According to 9-1-1 tapes, one of the passengers, Todd Beamer, had asked for the operator to pray with him before the passengers attempted to retake the aircraft. After praying, he simply said, "Let's roll." (The 9/11 Commission stated that Beamer later said "Roll it," most likely referring to a drink cart being used as a battering ram. This was, however, a separate incident, which took place after he had hung up on the operator. It is evidenced by cockpit recorders) The term "Let's roll" would later become the war cry for those fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near Shanksville in Stonycreek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania, at 10:03:11 a.m. local time (14:03:11 UTC). Based on the transcript of Flight 93's flight recorder, there is evidence that this crash was intentionally caused by the hijackers, by rolling the plane into an upside down position. The transcript appears to imply that the leader gave the order to roll the plane once it became evident that they would lose control of the plane to the passengers. There is a dispute about the exact timing of the crash as the seismic record indicates that the impact occurred at 10:06 a.m. The 9/11 Panel reported that captured al-Qaeda leader Khalid Shaikh Mohammed said that Flight 93's target was the United States Capitol, which was given the code name "the Faculty of Law."
To read:
On United Airlines Flight 93, black box recordings revealed that crew and passengers attempted to seize control of the plane from the hijackers after learning through phone calls that similiarly hijacked planes had been crashed into buildings that morning. According to the transcript of Flight 93's recorder one of the hijackers gave the order to roll the plane once it became evident that they would lose control of the plane to the passengers. Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near Shanksville in Stonycreek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania, at 10:03:11 a.m. local time (14:03:11 UTC). The 9/11 Panel reported that captured al-Qaeda leader Khalid Shaikh Mohammed said that Flight 93's target was the United States Capitol, which was given the code name "the Faculty of Law."
Since what happened on Flight 93 is fully described on the United Airlines Flight 93 page.
MONGO, I couldn't discuss this on your talk page, but what information did you object to having removed? -- PTR 20:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The link title "Evil succubus;" is unacceptable under WP:BLP as it gives the appearance of making a negative improperly sourced comment about a living person. Simple reinstatement of the title may result in your being blocked. If you wish to keep the title, it should be fully substantiated and acceptable as such to third party scrutiny. Tyrenius 03:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I request consensus for the addition of sourced and verified material to the Conspiracy Theories section Namely, that sources stated [10] [11] [12] [13] that the conspiracy theories were distracting from unreleased information discrediting the administration. This information has been found. It helps verify earlier sources statements that speculation into conspiracy theories distracted attention away from embarassing material (but it shouldn't be taken to mean that the administration engineered these theories).
SmokingGun: CIA Presidential Daily Briefing August 6, 2001: Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US
Washington Post 2006: CIA Briefed Rice July 2001 - Not explored in 9/11 Commission.
WTC7 - not explored in 9/11 commission either!!!
While it descredits for two people, it also gives large credit to the CIA [NSA] for trying to brief them on it.
Neutralaccounting 00:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Neutralaccounting 01:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
As I've said before, we need new section in this article on the criticisms of US gov't agencies/officials, which would include info on the briefing of Rice you mention, the FBI field office warnings (Coleen Riley, etc.), the allegations of FAA/NORAD mistakes on 9/11, the failure of NY fire dep't communication systems mentioned by the 9/11 Commiss report, etc. etc. We should really have a small section in this article with a link to a separate article on the subject. What does everyone think?-- JustFacts 17:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Would you please add to the very top that "this is the official story"?
In that way conspiracy theory and non conspiracy theory people would both be happy.
Given the incredible "coincidences" and luck 19 cave people clearly had you owe it to the world.
--[avid reader] 06:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
-- Cireh 17:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC) I am agreed. In this article must be two topics: conspiracy and non conspiracy.
Peter cannot says "Islamofascists" is the true, because I don't believe him :D as many other will don't. Solution: two theorist... Because anybody can says conspiracy is the true and "Islamofascists" is the theory.
The World Trade Center and the Pentagon are not in any way the very symbols of the free world. Peter Grey 19:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
There isn't an "Official Report tagline" on Attack on Pearl Harbor, or Project Apollo, or United Nations. Why should there be one here? 75.33.140.40 05:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please Note : I used to be an Engineer in the Navy & I worked for airline security, as a Checkpoint Supervisor, Explosives detection specialist & Screener Training Instructor.
1 ) I can absolutely confirm that, in the wreckage of UA flt. # 93 @ Shanksville, the NTSB found a disposable BIC lighter that had been illegally altered w/ a fold - out stiletto - style knife blade. I saw the FAA alert memo, w/ included Xerox'd photo of the knife.
2 ) Both towers in N. Y. were weakened by blunt - force trauma to their structural columns & support beams. The main failure, causing their collapse was what is called Tertiary Creep Fracture, of the beamwork @ the damaged floors; exascerbated by the burning high - temp. Jet fuel & the weight of the floors above the impact points.
Admittedly, the following will likely be considered conspiracy theories but, I believe these points answer many questions & should be researched.
3 ) It's very likely that UA flt. # 93 WAS shot - down. The U.S. Secret Service has USAF F - 16 "Ready - Alert" Fighters detached to them & stationed @ Andrews AFB, Maryland. They would NOT be under military control ! Their being sortied would have been classified & probably not known to the 9/11 Commission. When the flights Cockpit Voice Recorder was recovered from Shanksville, right after the incident, it was then stated that their conversations could not be clearly made out. Suddenly, 3 years later, they could be !?
4 ) Pakistan's Inter - Services Intelligence ( ISI ) Group has long been suspected of ties to Al - Q'aeda, Kashmiri Insurgent Groups ( That tried to destroy the Indian Parliament a few months after 9/11. ) & the CIA. The CIA's ties go back to covert assistance of the Afghan Mujaheddin resistance, during the 1980's Soviet / Afghan War. Osama Bin - Laden was helping to supply weapons & Intel. to the resistance, through Pakistan - w/ the help of the ISI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.62.74.137
the number of air bases where fighter planes are kept on alert has dwindled sharply in recent years, one of the generals who runs the system told Newsday. And on Sept. 11, they no longer included any bases close to two obvious terrorist targets - Washington, D.C., and New York City. So the military had to use planes from air bases considerable distances away from the two cities. The fighters dispatched to New York came from Otis Air National Guard Base on Cape Cod, Mass., 153 miles from the World Trade Center. - Newsday, 9/23/2001 - article available here
The fighter jets launched toward Washington took off not from Andrews Air Force Base, 15 miles from the capital, but from Langley Air Force Base near Hampton, Va., 130 miles from Washington. When Flight 77 smashed into the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m., those fighters were still 105 miles from the scene. - Newsday, 9/23/2001 - [14]
Despite Andrews Air Force Base's proximity to the capital, fighter jets don't "sit alert" there the way they do at Langley, ready to take to the air in 15 minutes. Until Sept. 11, one defense official said, they didn't have to - fighters at Langley would have plenty of time to intercept any enemy aircraft coming from outside the United States. On Sept. 11, the Langley jets still were 105 miles away when the Pentagon was struck. - Newsday, 9/23/2001 - [15]
Please note: The following does not relate to the so called "No Plane Theory." Instead, it explores the available facts regarding whether or not American Airlines flights 11 and 77 actually flew on September 11, 2001. If the evidence is weighted against the actual occurence of these flights, it then begs the following 2 questions: 1. Why does the official explanation of the September 11, 2001 events ignore this evidence? 2. If American Airlines flights 11 and 77 did not fly on September 11, 2001, then who and what was actually responsible for the damage to the north tower of the World Trade center, and to the Pentagon building?
References to the 911 plane crashes, which appear in Wikipedia article [17], have American Airlines flight 11 hitting the World Trade Center's north tower at 8:46 AM, and American Airlines flight 77 hitting the Pentagon at 9:37 AM. According to flight departure statistics available from the US government's Bureau of Transportation Statistics website [18], there are no records of American Airlines flights 11 or 77 leaving their scheduled origin airports on the day of the WTC or Pentagon attacks. The statistics do show that American Airlines flight 11 was listed as a regularly scheduled flight departing from Boston's Logan Airport, with a scheduled local(Eastern)departure time of 7:45 AM. The statistics also show that American Airlines flight 77 was a regularly scheduled flight departing from Washington DC's Dulles Airport, with a scheduled local departure time of 8:10 AM. Data is shown for flight 11 and flight 77 for the two days prior to September 11, 2001, but for September 11 no data is available for either of these flights. American Airlines is required by Federal regulations, as stated in 14 CFR, Chapter II, Section 234.4, to report 21 data factors for all flights, both scheduled and unscheduled. These statistical factors are fully defined in a online viewable, and downloadable pdf format document, from the Bureau of Transportation at [19], and Section 234.4 is viewable on page 2 of that document. Public viewing of flight Detailed Statistics for Departures is limited to 12 of the 21 mandated statistical fields, and includes the following data: Carrier code (AA in this case), date of scheduled flight, flight number (shown as 0011 and 0077 for flights 11 and 77 respectively), tail number (this is shown because any plane owned by the airline can be assigned to the flight on a particular day. The statistics show, for example, that on September 9, 2001, flight 11 was assigned to a plane having tail number N315AA, but that the same flight was assigned to a plane with tail number N321AA on September 10, 2001), destination airport, scheduled departure time, actual departure time (this is when the plane leaves the departure gate, after being loaded), scheduled elapsed time in minutes, actual elapsed time in minutes (this would be the total elapsed time from gate departure to gate arrival at the destination airport), departure delay in minutes, wheels-off time (the time at which the departing plane leaves the runway and becomes fully airborne), and taxi-out time (the time required for the airplane to move from the daparting gate to a take-off ready position on the runway. Any scheduled flight that actually departs an airport will have all of these 12 data statistics displayed for public viewing as required by the aforementioned Federal regulations. Bureau of Statistics employees are able to view the 9 additional data fields not available to the public, and these include information about cancelled or delayed departures and reasons for such cancellations or delays. The key data fields of interest, in this topic, are the "actual departure time" (gate departure), and the "wheels-off time." Both of these fields read "00.00" for American Airlines flights 11 and 77 on September 11, 2001, which appears to indicate that neither flight departed the boarding gate, and neither became airborne on that day. Furthermore, the tail number for each of these flights is listed as "unknown." It is logical to conclude, therefore, that no plane was assigned to either flight. The fact that a plane crashes does not nullify the requirement for reporting of Departure Statistics. Indeed, both United Airlines flights 175 [20] and 93 [21], which are also said to have crashed on September 11, 2001, do have Departure Statistics reported. If American Airlines flights 11 and 77 did in fact fly on September 11, 2001, this raises the question as to why American Airlines is exempted from reporting flights that crash before reaching their scheduled destination. Regarding this question, it should be noted that Departure Statistics are also not available for American Airlines flight 587 [22], which crashed in Queens, New York on November 12, 2001, shortly after takeoff. Rickoff ( talk) 10:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
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