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The term "Generation 9/11" is commonly used to refer to young adults who were between the ages of 13 and 25 on September 11, 2001. This group could be said to have previously had no defining event in their lives. Many social researchers believe that the terrorist attacks that occurred on that date caused significant shifts in the attitudes of this group; changes which will one day have dramatic effects on politics, economics and social policy.
Where are you getting this? And next time, place new comments on the bottom. bibliomaniac15 03:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC) PS: I might not be part of "Generation 9/11", but it affects me because it's my birthday.
I'm finding the section on fatalities choppy -- the paragraph about schools closing, etc. almost seems like it doesn't fit under fatalities, except for the part about many people being from certain towns. Could the school closings be moved to another section (is there something about NYC area response / reaction??) -- Anyway, I think that at least the paragraph of school closings could be bumped down a paragraph or two to the end of that section -- it seems the paragraph about the city identifying people/bodies is better flow-wise....
Anyway, I didn't want to change it w/o running it by here. KBecks 18:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I just removed some text with the word 'bullshit' as it was hurtful to the event. - Anthony Timberlake
Please provide a citation for the assertion that WTC7 was "heavily damaged" before it's collapse. I am unable to locate any. - Justin Keogh
Ah yes, policies and guidelines… Mechanics you say? How about this, we stop using popular mechanics, and we include good old laws of physic: http://www.stlouisrams.net/911/freefall.htm (quite witty in my humble opinion). It would help… otherwise someone might just feel the need to share his perspective on freefall:), and turn this into, oh my, an open and free discussion! Mechanics you say? Any honest mechanic would state the same; it is now far beyond the repair… Such sad guidelines here, right? Talk page with no talk allowed? Must admit, this whole thing is very consistent in terms of insanity and indecency… 1984? Press restart to continue?
Reference: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:September_11%2C_2001_attacks/archive20#Credible_Academic_Sources -- Lovelight 3:33 PM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
To be honest, while I find information added here quite interesting (a brave new perspective on wiki world indeed), I sincerely couldn’t find it relevant. Whether wikipedians choose to ignore facts and continue to dream about freefall whose fundamental flaw is showed in very means and ways it is engineered… fact remains that AOL is a part of WWW and that same goes for Wiki… As straightforward as it sounds, you can get that link (which just fueled more nonsense here, and which I find to be very sad from many standpoints) with simple query to Google. As a matter of a fact, if one uses Google search engine to seek for truth he will get far better results then those displayed here or "disgusted" in the article. It will hit you right there on the first page, and first 11 slaps will show you all the material one needs… Of course, you have to understand that Google was forced to omit relevant pages for such a long time that I will commend their determination to come clean out of all this in same manner in which I will congratulate to Simpsons, who incredibly as it sounds managed to be so clairvoyant that they actually illustrated the state of the world today (season 3, if I can recall it correctly, very precise, along with twins, and monorails and so on…). Now, if one put's all that aside and just submerges under this lucid surface into the free and crystal clear depths of P2P he will see true numbers (it's about seeds & peers after all). One will know that war waged on these pages is now over and that only place where combat still rages is in the mind of Mongo and his kin… With your actions here, you fuel very dangerous form of dissent, that's all. Whatever doctrine single mind chooses to justify freefall the outcome will be such to restore the balance. It is very simple actually, you know, Coke-Pepsi, Nvidia-Ati, Intel-AMD & so on… You see this view of freefall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_effect is worth nothing to us all, while this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect, well this one is worth everything... I will not stand for fear & terror, my course is peace & love (in Texas people call me terrorist when I say that:), there's no prison facility in the world ( http://www.roadtoguantanamomovie.com/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) which will change that.
Finally, if you would just ponder on what's happening here (in the history of this page), you would conclude that there are people willing to fight against:
1. Freedom of speech and expression 2. Freedom of every person to worship God in his own way 3. Freedom from want — individual economic security 4. Freedom from fear — world disarmament to the point that wars of aggression are impossible.
In other words, some of you fight against: a state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any undue restraints or restrictions.
Consider this to be well intended digression from popular mechanics, you can remove it, or you can just admit that you are on one way street with the dead end. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5l5bSxpCKEI. -- Lovelight 7:27 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
Mongo on your user page you are posing in front of those towers like a peacock, that role suit's you well… -- Lovelight 8:33 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
You've made your thoughts clear Lovelight. Everybody already knows what Mongos thoughts are concerning the matter. Now that you two have broken the ice, I see some nice harmonious editing on the horizon. Notable, reliably sourced, verifiable information for any would-be content additions or changes. I'm sure we can all agree on that? SkeenaR 06:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? If something is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable, then what exactly is the problem? SkeenaR 19:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I was pointing out that article editing would be more constructive than arguing on the talk page. And that we are supposed to include information that is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable. Digiterata also pointed this out. I will try and do this myself when I have some time. Also wondering what the problem is with including such material. SkeenaR 19:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Best Seller Book online (independant investigation) here: http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/04-01-06/discussion.cgi.56.html
And analogies like that one make it still more interesting. SkeenaR 23:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Nice book, you should read it before, he is 5 stars in amazon.com and amazon.co.uk.
I've noticed a few places in various articles where references are made to the "attack on the WTC" and to the "attacks on the WTC". Are both planes hitting the WTC considered a single attack, or do they represent multiple attacks? The name of this article does not provide enough reference for clarification, as it categorically includes the plane in PA and the Pentagon.
Example of the problem from Windows on the World:
Windows of the World was destroyed in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. At the time of the attack, the restaurant was hosting regular breakfast patrons and the Waters Financial Technology Congress. In addition to 73 restaurant staff who were present at the time, 16 Waters employees perished as well as all 71 conference guests. Noone, who was present in these rooms at the time of the attacks survived.
Sdr 03:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a good question. Probably a non-plural attack for a few reasons. Since the towers were part of one complex, the WTC complex, and the planes were a part of the same operation, it would be singular. If "attack" was always used instead of "attacks", it will also remove any ambiguity in other places as to whether the statement also refers to the '93 bombing. I guess the way that word is used actually does make a difference. Still though, it might not be quite that clear cut, since there was the Pentagon attack as well. That could make it Sept 11 "attacks". I think the best way is for the WTC to be an "attack", and Sept 11 to be "attacks". I do know of one outfit that persistently refers to the WTC attack as a plural, and that would be the lawyers trying to collect insurance money on the towers. It turns out they would get double the amount for two attacks instead of one. They said each plane was a seperate attack . That's in the Larry Silverstein article. SkeenaR 03:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3682671.stm --Lovelight)
If you really want a reference on whether to use "attack" or "attacks" -- look at Pearl Harbor. While we generally consider it to be one attack - but in actually, the Japanese used multiple attack waves in their plan by sending planes to fly over the base from multiple directions. Likewise for 9/11, we have multiple planes used to attack multiple targets; but directed at two different cities but all in the same day; for this, it is September 11 Attacks. As far as the World Trade Center is concerned, it is considered to be one facility - and therefore, one target. Thus, on the World Trade Center, it was one attack despite the use of two planes. KyuuA4 08:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's build our foreknowledge now… this is what we know to be undisputed and true: http://911readingroom.org/bib/; feel free to dispute those facts.
This: http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html is a place where you'll meet some of the people who forged our reality, and if you fallow the tracks you're bound to learn about their connection to 911 attacks and such wars as one in Afghanistan, Iraq… You'll also learn a lot about trading that took place just before 911 events. That link is of the top, search for "Carlyle Group" if you won't to know more. What is important is the source of information http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=insiderTrading, which (for most part) came directly from press agencies such as associated press, Reuters, and so on. In other words all this knowledge is valid and at our disposal. Feel free to use Google to clarify things. Everything about inside trading that took place before 911 can be easily verified in any newspaper archive timed in the days following 911 (for those with short memories) events. This route (perspective) will lead reader way back into the history; it will provide a good foundation for understanding economic, social & military background of 911 events. Also, please do take a moment to learn about the interests of US administration, those former and/or current one: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bush_family_911.html. Finally if this page would serve its purpose, then we would be free to discuss all sort's of things. Here is an example taken from another (not moderated) public forum ( http://www.topix.net/forum/news/george-bush): "The 911 attacks were attributed to osama bin laden from the onset. Let's just say for the bushies it wasn't an attack by our own. With the conspiracy theories aside let's look at the "undisputable facts". On Sept 11 2001 there was a meeting in NY of the board of directors and the major investors of the Carlyle Group, a Saudi owned energy firm boasting the biggest profits of any company in world history. Now also in attendance of these meetings was george bush sr. who at the time was on the board of directors and financial advisor of the Carlyle Group. The bushes are also among the largest investor in this company with apx. 78% of their net worth invested in the Carlyle group. Now the largest investors are the Bin laden family and the Saudi royals. No less than 26 members of the bin laden family were attending this meeting along with the Saudi royals on the morning of 911. After the attacks the only people allowed to take to the skies were the Saudi royals and the binladens"… -- Lovelight 4:05 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
There is no point is spamming this page with conspiracist essays. I'm going to start removing stuff that would be better on blogspot. Tom Harrison Talk 14:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I checked a few of the "foreknowledge" articles. Seems like they seem to agree that terrorist organizations are suspected of planning acts of terrorism and there are occasional reports about that. Most are false alarms, some are investigated further and found to be false alarms, some are real plans that are caught in time, sometimes one gets through. Is there an actual point to all of this "foreknowledge"? Here is some more foreknowledge: Al Qaeda guys are planning terrorism right now and will strike some time in the future. Whatchagonnadooabootit? Weregerbil 18:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok but in order to stay more objective, we should set all the hypotheseis discussed including: CIA, Israel, Russia implication and Naom Shomsky; David Duke opinions, ....why to avoid those probabilities thanks.
I don't see any info about secondary explosions in this article. These were widely reported by first responders and workers at the World Trade Center. Why this is allowed to be only mentioned in the conspiracy theory section only leads to more believing there's a true conspiracy.
Why doesn't this article mention the evidence of secondary explosions? Slipgrid 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Very well, it is just the sort of information control I'm talking about… thank you for making it clear. Here is another youtube clip… don’t worry it's the last one, very clear one, you should see it:)… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKa8VE7ILI -- Lovelight 11:42 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
Golbez, your willingness, or unwillingness, to watch the clear evidence of secondary explosions, does not mean they didn't happen! Such remarks about being able or unable, willing or unwilling, to watch clear video evidence, does not belong on this page! -- Slipgrid 00:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The unfortunate reality is that an enormous body of folklore, and outright disinformation, has appeared surrounding this subject matter. Hence new material is assessed critically (and in general reasonably fairly). These suggested improvements are rejected because they lack supporting evidence and/or scientific accuracy. Peter Grey 01:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Most articles have a section about an event in popular culture. Can somebody please add it? I am aware that some may contributores may find this inappropriate for such a tragic event, but I do not find this a good reason because it is also there for other tragic event such as the Jonestown and I am not aware of any policy forbidding this. Thanks in advance. Andries 13:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
What is with the "... acording to the official story" line at the end of the introduction. It seems a bit POV to me.
Is there any plans that any of the Wikipedia Adiministrators would make a memorial page for the events of that tragic day? Also will this be able to be a permanent memorial online? -- 82.47.145.146 21:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Living at 8th St & Broadway, highest point between Empire State Building and WTC, photos we took from the rooftop, Ground Zero, Union Square and Washington Sq Park are at newyorkpix.com, added the link for a first hand view from the frozen zone. Nymichael 08:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this image the best we can do? It seems to be pretty poor quality with a lot of digital interference. I assume the only reason we are using it as the top image on this article is because it is public domain. However, we don't even actually know that it is a public domain image. It comes from the website of the US Embassy in Tanzania. It is therefore entirely possible that this photo was placed on that website with out it being in the public domain. I contend that we should find a better image to feature on this article. Bonus Onus 20:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I briefly added Template:Sep11dead, in place of the table of fatalities. I thought we might do better with a more horizontal format, and one we can hide. It turned out that the reference tags didn't work, as I should have expected. I could hard-code the notes into the template, but then we would have a second set of footnotes just for that section. I'm also not sure about transcluding content with a template. Possibly we could do something like we do with Portal:Engineering, if that's allowed in article space. Any thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 00:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
In the section 'Other potential hijackers' this sentence is included: "Plans to include Moussaoui were allegedly never completed because the al-Qaeda hierarchy allegedly had doubts about his reliability." One instance of the word 'allegedly' should be removed. Additionally, in the same section this sentence: "On May 3, 2006, a federal jury rejected the death penalty and sentenced Moussaoui to 6 life terms in prison without parole.." should have one dot removed. Mdagre 14:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Just for this minor typo in the section "Other possible hijackers": In a an video tape released in... Thanks.
Just to make things clear, here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm are some new facts which surfaced yesterday… this new data is sourced here: http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf. Until relevance of these new findings is reflected in this (and other related articles), article should stand as disputed . -- Lovelight 11:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to question the quality of the questions asked. Are we to believe there was a single question which asked: Did federal officials assist in the 9/11 terrorist attacks OR take no action to stop them SO THAT the United States could go to war in the Middle East?, and to which more than a third answered 'YES'? -- JimWae 18:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
No I am not talking about a piece of clothing... I am thinking a section about the people jumping out of the windows above the section the planes hit to escape the toxic fumes and to have there "prefered way of death" should be added, as discussed in depth in the TV programme "The Falling Man" and shown in the infamous "Falling Man" Picture shown here [18] the problem is that many people do not want to beleve this is true because some people see this as commiting suicide and most religions say if you commit suicide then you go to "hell" or the religions equivilant. SKRIBUL 09:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Link - I think this is important to add in the Responsibility section. I did add it, but someone removed it, please discuss as to why it should not be added —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.179.70.98 ( talk • contribs) 11:47, 9 September 2006
Considering that Al-Jazeera recently aired the tape of bin Laden meeting with the hijackers, I think it's fair to say the two were connected. The Lizard Wizard 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)/The Lizard Wizard
Is there a credible source describing the quote in context? It appears, if it wasn't a simple mistake (or a misquote), that 'hard evidence' is being used in its technical meaning in police procedures. No-one thinks Osama bin Laden was one of the hijackers. It doesn't the diminish the body of evidence indicating his involvement. Peter Grey 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
| The reason? Fugitives on the list must be formally charged with a crime, and bin Laden is still only a suspect in the recent attacks in New York City and Washington.
"There's going to be a considerable amount of time before anyone associated with the attacks is actually charged," said Rex Tomb, who is head of the FBI's chief fugitive publicity unit and helps decide which fugitives appear on the list. |
| The absence has also provided fodder for conspiracy theorists who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings. From this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain.
Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings. FBI officials say the wanted poster merely reflects the government's long-standing practice of relying on actual criminal charges in the notices. "There's no mystery here," said FBI spokesman Rex Tomb. "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it." David N. Kelley, the former U.S. attorney in New York who oversaw terrorism cases when bin Laden was indicted for the embassy bombings there in 1998, said he is not at all surprised by the lack of a reference to Sept. 11 on the official wanted poster. Kelley said the issue is a matter of legal restrictions and the need to be fair to any defendant. "It might seem a little strange from the outside, but it makes sense from a legal point of view," said Kelley, now in private practice. "If I were in government, I'd be troubled if I were asked to put up a wanted picture where no formal charges had been filed, no matter who it was." |
OK, under effects of 9/11 in the sidebar table of contents thingy, there's an item for "audiovisual entertainment" of tv and movies that were changed or postponed, etc. because of the attacks, but I see no reference in the article to the effects on the families of those who have died, etc.
The paragraph about schools closing that I mentioned below seems to fit that topic..... I'm suggesting that a section about the effects on families and the grief perhaps be added. Or is that just too sappy? Is there any article out there on the 9/11 widows (and all the other folks who had lost family and friends in the attacks???) I'm still pretty new so I don't know all the ins and outs of how Wikipedia works, thanks. KBecks 19:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we can add something about the 36 children whose fathers died that day, even as they (the kids) were still in their mothers' wombs. Cerebral Warrior 11:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As of this writing the article is vandalized. I am newly registered so I can't fix it. Someone please do. Might be agood idea to completely lock it, at least for today.
Simply signed on to add- thanks for this. People are going to look at this page today (duh) and many of them don't want to be reminded of the blind silliness that some people engage in in their free time.-- Arynknight 07:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to make it plain and simple. Do not add "terrorist" to the lead back. It will only be removed. -- Cat out 09:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed endlessly in the archives. Since this page is linked from the Main Page, it ought not be protected except for extreme circumstances. As such, I will summarily block anyone who chooses to edit war on this page until 12 September. -- bainer ( talk) 10:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, the word 'terrorist' has to go. I don't case what discussion, polls ect have previosuly ocurred. It is not neutral and thus violates our non-negotiable WP:NPOV. End of story. 'Terrorist' is a value judgement not a neutral description, it is thus an inherently unencyclopedic word. No doubt the UN (rightly IMO) would also describe the attacks as 'outrage' 'inhuman' 'offensive' 'criminal' 'obscene' and generally 'a Bad Thing' (and who'd disagree) but those aren't words you'd expect to find in an encyclopedic description).-- Doc 10:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how the murder of 3000 innocent people can NOT be called "terrorist." Please, today is 9/11. Let us pray for the souls of the deceased instead of insulting their memory by not terming those who so cruelly killed thousands of fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, as terrorists. Cerebral Warrior 11:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Hehehe, sorry for that...and I think I was a bit aggresive, I'm sorry for that too. We just think different and this is no place for personal dicussions anyway.-- cloviz 22:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The overwhelming majority of reliable sources call the acts terrorism. Calling them anything else would give undue weight to an extreme minority opinion. If there are reliable sources calling the acts something else, let's cite them and quote them. Tom Harrison Talk 11:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
No. Even if any reliable source calls this incident of massmurder as any thing other than terrorism, we should not include that in the article, atleast today. How do you think some widowed lady and her (fatherless) children would feel if the Moslems who murdered her husband for the "crime" of being Christian would feel if they saw that in the article? Cerebral Warrior 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Look at it this way- if today was Holocaust Memorial Day, would you guys be insisting that a Holocaust denial theory proposed by some Moslem dictator be included in the article about the Holocaust? No, you wouldn't because that would be an insult to the 7 million people who died in Nazi gas chambers. Well, today is a day when we remember the 3000 innocent men, women and children whose lifes were snuffed out by a new breed of fascists-Islamofascists. Referring to their murders as anything other than "terrorists" would be an insult to the deceased, who do not deserve to be mocked simply because they were Americans. If you are an anti-American, that's your wish, but please don't insult the departed. Cerebral Warrior 13:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust victims were murdered by the Nazis for being Jews. The 9/11 victims were murdered by Islamofascists because they were not Moslem. What's the difference? Cerebral Warrior 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am taking it easy and am sorry if it appears otherwise. I just don't like the idea of Islamists putting their warped ideologies into the article. Cerebral Warrior 14:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Terrorism is ultimatley a subjective pejorative adjective. There is no agreed definition. Most people would describe these attacks as terrorist. Indeed to say they are 'not terrorist' is IMO offensive and morally indefensible. It is akin to saying that they are 'not evil', 'not wrong' or 'not unjustifiable'. However, these are all moral value judgements which an encyclopedia should not make (no matter how universally others make them). I believe Nazism was 'a bad thing', the holocaust was 'evil', and apartheid was 'inhumane'. But I don't think we want articles saying 'Hitler was a bad man', and I'm not defending Hitler in saying that. 9-11 was dreadful, and I could use 100 perjorative adjectives to describe it (none, actually, do it justice), but there really is not need. Let the facts speak for themselves without moral value-judgements. Describe what happened, record that most people condemn it, and it is almost universally called 'terrorist'. Sane people will draw their own conclusions, and NPOV will be upheld. And yes, my sympathy and prayers to those who mourn this day.-- Doc 14:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Also why did you guys delete the memorial an Australian gentleman put up for his mother who died that day? Please don't be so cruel. How would you feel if some Islamobarbarian killed your mom just because she refused to wear a headscarf? Spare a thought for those whose lives were torn apart that day. Cerebral Warrior 14:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I didn't notice the mainpage mention-that was my fault. It should be more of a memorial rather than a factual statement though. As for Nil Einne, it is a fact that Al-Qaeda and other Islamobarbian groups have declared fatwas and dhimmis against "non-believers" in the religion of "peace". The number of Moslems killed on 9/11 was negligible compared to the number of Christian casualties. Cerebral Warrior 15:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
You moral relativists have lost your goddamned minds if you think 9/11 cannot objectively be called terrorism.
(replying to various points). I'm not a moral relativist - I condemn these attacks in the strongest possible way - as do all right thinking people. I'm uninterested in what Bin Laden, his cronies, or those who would attempt to justify them think. I'm sure 99.5% of people would judge these acts as 'terrorist' - and the rest are a minority to discount (or record in a later paragraph). But my point remains that wikipedia should not make value judgements even when 99% of people do. This is not because we want to be sensitive to the minority (in this case, to hell with them), but because an encyclopedia records facts, and records opinions, it does not make judgements and pronounce opinions, no matter how universally those judgements or opinions may be held. We don't call Hitler 'evil', flat-earth theories 'wrong', or the holocaust 'inhumane', even if we ALL agree that those statements would be true. In actual fact, insisting that we need judgemental term in articles like this is almost to trivialise the subject - the facts, if properly recorded, speak for themselves. -- Doc 18:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The logic here is backwards. "Terrrorism" is an objective term. Not using 'terrorist' to describe people engaging in terrorism would be imposing a PoV. (Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Terrorism: 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.) Peter Grey 20:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that this whole thing is Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.'s fault. Personally they should have left Osama bin Laden alone. He didn't do anything to us and he wasn't bothering us. So Bush Sr. should have kept that big-ass mouth of his shut because when he made that speech about looking for bin Laden and invading Iraq, bin Laden marked the time and date to get that sick skinny bastard back. Then sure enough, a few years later, we lost about 1/25 of our US population because bin Laden went back out for revenge.
Al-Jazeera referred to the attacks as "terror attacks" http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4615A330-9544-42B0-A3CF-E308F0172EA8.htm If they are biased, it certainly isn't towards the American view. -- Citicat 01:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Didn't do anything to us? He orchestrated acts of terrorism that date back way before Bush Sr. said anything about him. Take a look at bin Laden's history before you say things like that.
First off, the Americans need to seriously chill. I mean, sure, it was bad for the 3,500 who died and their families, but to say stuff like "Please, today is 9/11. Let us pray for the souls of the deceased instead of insulting their memory by not terming those who so cruelly killed thousands of fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, as terrorists." is getting a bit out of hand. The body count would be ignored if this had happened to Mauritanians or Eritreans. 400,000 have died in Darfur already, a million were slaughtered in the Rwandan genocide, 9,000 people die of AIDS every day: yet somehow one never hears such emotional pleas. In any case, the EU defines terrorism as "serious offences against persons and property which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of: seriously intimidating a population; or unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act; or seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation." which was obviously what Al-Qa'ida did, so I see no problem in the usage of "terrorist" here. EamonnPKeane 09:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"an act of unprovoked, brutal Islamofascism"? I direct you to September 11, 2001 attacks#Motive. Like most people, I don't know enough about this to say whether there was any tangible justification or not, but you can't pretend it's only a simple matter of some crazy Arabs who "hate freedom". EamonnPKeane 16:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"In any case, thick smoke and intense heat prevented rescue helicopters from landing." I flagged this as needing a citation; it may be that is better to just delete it as irrelevant, but I thought I'd raise it here first. -- Guinnog 11:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
How about creating for example Popular culture (or Social impact) section? -- Brand спойт 13:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't find a link to the September 11, 2001 wiki, so I added it under "memorials". If there's been discussion about this link that I missed, please feel free to revert. -- ESP 16:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The lead link is currently to the U.N. I think that this like is acceptably broad and authoritative for the first sentence. Recently, someone tried to add a retrospective link (looking back after 5 years) to the middle of that sentence. Wouldn't it be better to move this link down somewhere into the body of the article, footnoting some summary of the ramifications? - Harmil 16:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And now we have a second editor actually moving the U.N. link out of the first paragraph! [20] Can we please, decided specifically, what link we want to lead this article? IMHO it needs to be one that authoritatively addresses one of the two core assertions of the article: that the attacks happened or that they were acts of terrorism. Both are addressed by the U.N. link, so why do people not want to lead with that? - Harmil 18:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been asking for sprotection on this page on #wikipedia for a while now. No one seems to be available. I'm going to stop reverting, and let others take over for a while. The vandalism continues apace, and is making editing by reasonable users (such as Tom, above) difficult at best. sprotection would solve this. Someone, please take notice. Thanks. - Harmil 17:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The section about other potential terrorists (ok, hijackers) is quite long, and is given more attention than is probably needed in this main article. Anyone have a good idea for breaking this off into its own article and then shortening the section? If survivors and the hijackers sections are so small.... the potential hijackers section requires even less space, IMO. Thank you! KBecks 18:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Oh and if it's too difficult to edit today, I understand! KBecks 18:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(I put this on top of the list yesterday when it should have been down here at the bottom --- still learning my way around Wiki...) KBecks 18:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm finding the section on fatalities choppy -- the paragraph about schools closing, etc. almost seems like it doesn't fit under fatalities, except for the part about many people being from certain towns. Could the school closings be moved to another section (is there something about NYC area response / reaction??) -- Anyway, I think that at least the paragraph of school closings could be bumped down a paragraph or two to the end of that section -- it seems the paragraph about the city identifying people/bodies is better flow-wise....
Anyway, I didn't want to change it w/o running it by here. KBecks 18:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems like the part about the Moussaui (sp??) trial under other hijackers is getting way off-topic about 9/11. This content probably belongs under Moussaui's own biography entry, and doesn't make sense in the 9/11 article. I find it very distracting and off-topic to the article..... Probably best not to edit today because of all the crazy changes going on, but I wanted to point it out. Would someone please help with this when there's a chance? Thanks. KBecks 18:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that the Public Response section should come first, then International Reaction.. (logically starting with the reactions closest to the tragedy, then the rest of the world).
The paragraph about Guantanamo Bay under International Reaction is more appropriate to the next section about U.S. Government Response -- it should fit in there somewhere...probably under War on Terrorism.
I also feel that the Alternate Theories blurb (listed under Reaction), might better fit under the Motive section.
Not editing today because of all the traffic, but wanted to note these suggestions. KBecks 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The picture on this article must be removed now. Read if for some deities sake, its telling people to call 911 and hold the phone.
Given the amount of vandalism, I think sprotection is warranted for now. ++ Lar: t/ c 22:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there are no objections, I'll wait for one more day and put that link in article under multimedia section… if you know of any reason why "NORAD interactive" shouldn’t be enlisted, please say so… -- Lovelight 00:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the use of terrorists in the first paragraph should be changed to hijackers or such, as terrorist is an extremly derogatory and POV term. I realise it may be controversial to change though, so I thought I should ask first. Pauric 22:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Keeps being changed. It shifts from color to black and white. The North and South tower reverse foreground and background. If you change the photo, please rewrite the cutline correctly.-- Cberlet 23:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
-Don't edit the caption on the image, the North tower is on the right, and the South tower is on the left. The North Tower was hit higher up, (which is one reason why it was last to fall) and was hit first. The South Tower was hit lower than the North Tower, and was hit second. This is a satellite of the towers: [21] It is from the NE looking SW. You can clearly see the antenna on the north tower. [22] -This image shows the North Tower on the right, you can see it is burning from an area closer to its roof, and you can see it's antenna very plainly in the upper right hand part of the image. [23] -Here is a picture of the north tower, you can clearly see the North Tower is the building on the right hand side of the original image. [24] -That is a picture of the North Tower burning, while the plane is about to strike the south tower at a location lower on the tower. [25] -Another angle on the same side as the original image. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. The North Tower is on the right hand side, and the South tower is on the left. -- KCMODevin 11 September 2006
Whether right or left depends on the direction the picture was taken from, and the various pictures are from different angles. Like Cberlet pointed out, a change in the image requires (sometimes) a change to the caption. As of 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC), the image is the view from the West, 1 WTC is in the foreground, 2 WTC the background (with neither clearly left or right of the other). Peter Grey 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
From the "Other potential attacks" section:
I'm not entirely sure what this is saying, but it seems a bit odd; "simultaneous" and "still hanging around in the boarding lounge near a TV set when the main attack happened" don't quite seem to suggest the same thing. I've marked it as needing a source; hopefully a direct quote or two will help clear up the ambiguity. Shimgray | talk | 23:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
In "The attacks" sections it says (should say) "Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near..." However, the photo is covering some of the text so that it looks like "Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed field near." Not a major issue, but still confusing anyways, and, I think this subject derserves perfection, don't you? Thanks. Wolfie001 00:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There were reports during the morning of September 11 that there was a fire in the National Mall in D.C. Does anyone know what the cause of this was? Should it be mentioned anywhere in the article (or one of the articles in the 9/11 series). 69.40.247.238 00:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, can we chill on the caption? The original image with an orange fireball was quickly determined to be a copyrighted AP photo, and speedily deleted; hence the deletion tag. In its place was placed the current gray pic with lots of smoke. There may be some issues with cache, but I just purged the page, so that should be gone. In any case, if you see orange, you're seeing an old picture. There is no explosion in either building, but the antenna is clearly visible in the RIGHT FOREGROUND tower. -- Mmx1 01:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The image that is now in the lead section is the old, copyrighted, image which has been re-uploaded by someone claiming to have released it to the public domain. This is obviously questionable, given that there is no information given about the location, time or identity of the photographer ( Image:Wtcsouthhit911.JPG).
HOWEVER, rather than simply removing this image (as it rightly was from commons), and since it is so iconic, and there is no way to replace it with any free image of that particular moment in time (see WP:FAIR), I suggest that we instead nail down the ownership and copyright info on this particular image and make a reasonable claim to fair use. Does anyone have the original source handy? - Harmil 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I honestly don't know what the right course of action here is, because it's kind of a mess, but I have noticed that the timeline article Aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks is being used for two completely different purposes, probably because the word 'Aftermath' suggested 'Effects' to someone. That article is being used for:
I don't know if what is needed here is a merger of the 'Aftermath' effects into this article, or going the other way to say 'Main article: Effects of the attacks' in this article, and moving what effects are here to that location, or what...but it's a mess. What I am certain of is that there are two relatively complete articles wedged into one place, and I don't know of a good way to pull them apart. Input or action appreciated. Skybunny 19:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The page states that the youngest victim was 17, but I have read that really the youngest victim was 2. "Christine Hanson, 2, of Groton, Mass., was the youngest. She and her parents were aboard the plane that crashed into the south tower." http://www.sptimes.com/2002/09/08/911/911__45_Questions.shtml
A consultant, John Lozowsky, is missing from the Marsh Memorial at http://memorial.mmc.com. I'm providing the following as supporting documentation. I sent an email (via their site's inquiry form, so no copy) asking about this and received the following on September 7, 2006:
"Thank you for contacting us with this information. All of the names that appear on the MMC Memorial site have permission from the families to be posted there; if a name does not appear, that is because there was not consent to do so.
"Jessica Zimny Associate, Corporate Social Responsibility & Philanthropic Programs Marsh & McLennan Companies, Inc."
I removed material irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Richard G. Shewmaker 02:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The page is locked, so I can't edit it, but the top image's caption has the towers mislabeled. The South tower, the second to be hit, hit by Flight 175, in the background, is on the left.
The article at Mohamed Atta al-Sayed was recently moved to Muhammad `Ata as-Sayyid. There's discussion here on whether this was the right thing to do or not. Any input would be appreciated. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 13:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The North tower had the antenna shown. No antenna of the size shown in the article's first illustration was on the South tower. The illustation's caption is incorrect. -- CliffC 17:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The subject is moot if the new replacement image of the Towers "sticks", but the "left" > < "right" word switch by User:Peter_Grey has put the caption exactly backward again. See above talk subject "North WTC tower had the antenna, not the South tower". -- CliffC 22:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
This section of links is anemic at best, and incredibly impartial, though how could it be given the title. What would be the argument for not including actual, notable, conspiracy theory links? Aside from the obvious personal reasons. Viswamitra 07:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Paranoid fictions and partisan, religious and racial hate have no place beside factual articles (implementation of this by the Drive By media would mean its self-immolation; hardly a bad thing). By writing only the facts, the conspiracy "theorists" are automatically refuted.
After all, the crackpot theories of Holocaust deniers do not warrant being placed in full next to an article on the Shoah.
Given the rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, and sadly, even amongst far Left-wing (and not so "far") Americans, excluding this propaganda is even more relevant since many of the so-called conspiracies "theories" revolve around the Mossad's having perpetrated the terror attacks ("Hey, guys! Let's attack our best ally, biggest financial supporter and main supplier of weapons and all to make terrorists look bad!"). E.g., "All of the Jews stayed home from work" or "All of the Jews were secretly warned (how? conference call? Mass email?) to stay away from the WTC on 9/11."
Listing such garbage on an equal footing with the facts only dignifies it.
PainMan 16:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Whoever removed this comment of mine had no right do so (even if he or she had the "power"). You can't make ideas you don't like go away by simply deleting them.
PainMan 20:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I moved the link from the Congressional report on 9/11 from the 9/11 Commission Report page to here. -- Sloane ( talk) 18:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
The term "Generation 9/11" is commonly used to refer to young adults who were between the ages of 13 and 25 on September 11, 2001. This group could be said to have previously had no defining event in their lives. Many social researchers believe that the terrorist attacks that occurred on that date caused significant shifts in the attitudes of this group; changes which will one day have dramatic effects on politics, economics and social policy.
Where are you getting this? And next time, place new comments on the bottom. bibliomaniac15 03:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC) PS: I might not be part of "Generation 9/11", but it affects me because it's my birthday.
I'm finding the section on fatalities choppy -- the paragraph about schools closing, etc. almost seems like it doesn't fit under fatalities, except for the part about many people being from certain towns. Could the school closings be moved to another section (is there something about NYC area response / reaction??) -- Anyway, I think that at least the paragraph of school closings could be bumped down a paragraph or two to the end of that section -- it seems the paragraph about the city identifying people/bodies is better flow-wise....
Anyway, I didn't want to change it w/o running it by here. KBecks 18:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I just removed some text with the word 'bullshit' as it was hurtful to the event. - Anthony Timberlake
Please provide a citation for the assertion that WTC7 was "heavily damaged" before it's collapse. I am unable to locate any. - Justin Keogh
Ah yes, policies and guidelines… Mechanics you say? How about this, we stop using popular mechanics, and we include good old laws of physic: http://www.stlouisrams.net/911/freefall.htm (quite witty in my humble opinion). It would help… otherwise someone might just feel the need to share his perspective on freefall:), and turn this into, oh my, an open and free discussion! Mechanics you say? Any honest mechanic would state the same; it is now far beyond the repair… Such sad guidelines here, right? Talk page with no talk allowed? Must admit, this whole thing is very consistent in terms of insanity and indecency… 1984? Press restart to continue?
Reference: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:September_11%2C_2001_attacks/archive20#Credible_Academic_Sources -- Lovelight 3:33 PM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
To be honest, while I find information added here quite interesting (a brave new perspective on wiki world indeed), I sincerely couldn’t find it relevant. Whether wikipedians choose to ignore facts and continue to dream about freefall whose fundamental flaw is showed in very means and ways it is engineered… fact remains that AOL is a part of WWW and that same goes for Wiki… As straightforward as it sounds, you can get that link (which just fueled more nonsense here, and which I find to be very sad from many standpoints) with simple query to Google. As a matter of a fact, if one uses Google search engine to seek for truth he will get far better results then those displayed here or "disgusted" in the article. It will hit you right there on the first page, and first 11 slaps will show you all the material one needs… Of course, you have to understand that Google was forced to omit relevant pages for such a long time that I will commend their determination to come clean out of all this in same manner in which I will congratulate to Simpsons, who incredibly as it sounds managed to be so clairvoyant that they actually illustrated the state of the world today (season 3, if I can recall it correctly, very precise, along with twins, and monorails and so on…). Now, if one put's all that aside and just submerges under this lucid surface into the free and crystal clear depths of P2P he will see true numbers (it's about seeds & peers after all). One will know that war waged on these pages is now over and that only place where combat still rages is in the mind of Mongo and his kin… With your actions here, you fuel very dangerous form of dissent, that's all. Whatever doctrine single mind chooses to justify freefall the outcome will be such to restore the balance. It is very simple actually, you know, Coke-Pepsi, Nvidia-Ati, Intel-AMD & so on… You see this view of freefall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_effect is worth nothing to us all, while this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect, well this one is worth everything... I will not stand for fear & terror, my course is peace & love (in Texas people call me terrorist when I say that:), there's no prison facility in the world ( http://www.roadtoguantanamomovie.com/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) which will change that.
Finally, if you would just ponder on what's happening here (in the history of this page), you would conclude that there are people willing to fight against:
1. Freedom of speech and expression 2. Freedom of every person to worship God in his own way 3. Freedom from want — individual economic security 4. Freedom from fear — world disarmament to the point that wars of aggression are impossible.
In other words, some of you fight against: a state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any undue restraints or restrictions.
Consider this to be well intended digression from popular mechanics, you can remove it, or you can just admit that you are on one way street with the dead end. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5l5bSxpCKEI. -- Lovelight 7:27 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
Mongo on your user page you are posing in front of those towers like a peacock, that role suit's you well… -- Lovelight 8:33 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
You've made your thoughts clear Lovelight. Everybody already knows what Mongos thoughts are concerning the matter. Now that you two have broken the ice, I see some nice harmonious editing on the horizon. Notable, reliably sourced, verifiable information for any would-be content additions or changes. I'm sure we can all agree on that? SkeenaR 06:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? If something is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable, then what exactly is the problem? SkeenaR 19:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I was pointing out that article editing would be more constructive than arguing on the talk page. And that we are supposed to include information that is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable. Digiterata also pointed this out. I will try and do this myself when I have some time. Also wondering what the problem is with including such material. SkeenaR 19:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Best Seller Book online (independant investigation) here: http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/04-01-06/discussion.cgi.56.html
And analogies like that one make it still more interesting. SkeenaR 23:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Nice book, you should read it before, he is 5 stars in amazon.com and amazon.co.uk.
I've noticed a few places in various articles where references are made to the "attack on the WTC" and to the "attacks on the WTC". Are both planes hitting the WTC considered a single attack, or do they represent multiple attacks? The name of this article does not provide enough reference for clarification, as it categorically includes the plane in PA and the Pentagon.
Example of the problem from Windows on the World:
Windows of the World was destroyed in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. At the time of the attack, the restaurant was hosting regular breakfast patrons and the Waters Financial Technology Congress. In addition to 73 restaurant staff who were present at the time, 16 Waters employees perished as well as all 71 conference guests. Noone, who was present in these rooms at the time of the attacks survived.
Sdr 03:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a good question. Probably a non-plural attack for a few reasons. Since the towers were part of one complex, the WTC complex, and the planes were a part of the same operation, it would be singular. If "attack" was always used instead of "attacks", it will also remove any ambiguity in other places as to whether the statement also refers to the '93 bombing. I guess the way that word is used actually does make a difference. Still though, it might not be quite that clear cut, since there was the Pentagon attack as well. That could make it Sept 11 "attacks". I think the best way is for the WTC to be an "attack", and Sept 11 to be "attacks". I do know of one outfit that persistently refers to the WTC attack as a plural, and that would be the lawyers trying to collect insurance money on the towers. It turns out they would get double the amount for two attacks instead of one. They said each plane was a seperate attack . That's in the Larry Silverstein article. SkeenaR 03:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3682671.stm --Lovelight)
If you really want a reference on whether to use "attack" or "attacks" -- look at Pearl Harbor. While we generally consider it to be one attack - but in actually, the Japanese used multiple attack waves in their plan by sending planes to fly over the base from multiple directions. Likewise for 9/11, we have multiple planes used to attack multiple targets; but directed at two different cities but all in the same day; for this, it is September 11 Attacks. As far as the World Trade Center is concerned, it is considered to be one facility - and therefore, one target. Thus, on the World Trade Center, it was one attack despite the use of two planes. KyuuA4 08:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's build our foreknowledge now… this is what we know to be undisputed and true: http://911readingroom.org/bib/; feel free to dispute those facts.
This: http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html is a place where you'll meet some of the people who forged our reality, and if you fallow the tracks you're bound to learn about their connection to 911 attacks and such wars as one in Afghanistan, Iraq… You'll also learn a lot about trading that took place just before 911 events. That link is of the top, search for "Carlyle Group" if you won't to know more. What is important is the source of information http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=insiderTrading, which (for most part) came directly from press agencies such as associated press, Reuters, and so on. In other words all this knowledge is valid and at our disposal. Feel free to use Google to clarify things. Everything about inside trading that took place before 911 can be easily verified in any newspaper archive timed in the days following 911 (for those with short memories) events. This route (perspective) will lead reader way back into the history; it will provide a good foundation for understanding economic, social & military background of 911 events. Also, please do take a moment to learn about the interests of US administration, those former and/or current one: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bush_family_911.html. Finally if this page would serve its purpose, then we would be free to discuss all sort's of things. Here is an example taken from another (not moderated) public forum ( http://www.topix.net/forum/news/george-bush): "The 911 attacks were attributed to osama bin laden from the onset. Let's just say for the bushies it wasn't an attack by our own. With the conspiracy theories aside let's look at the "undisputable facts". On Sept 11 2001 there was a meeting in NY of the board of directors and the major investors of the Carlyle Group, a Saudi owned energy firm boasting the biggest profits of any company in world history. Now also in attendance of these meetings was george bush sr. who at the time was on the board of directors and financial advisor of the Carlyle Group. The bushes are also among the largest investor in this company with apx. 78% of their net worth invested in the Carlyle group. Now the largest investors are the Bin laden family and the Saudi royals. No less than 26 members of the bin laden family were attending this meeting along with the Saudi royals on the morning of 911. After the attacks the only people allowed to take to the skies were the Saudi royals and the binladens"… -- Lovelight 4:05 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
There is no point is spamming this page with conspiracist essays. I'm going to start removing stuff that would be better on blogspot. Tom Harrison Talk 14:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I checked a few of the "foreknowledge" articles. Seems like they seem to agree that terrorist organizations are suspected of planning acts of terrorism and there are occasional reports about that. Most are false alarms, some are investigated further and found to be false alarms, some are real plans that are caught in time, sometimes one gets through. Is there an actual point to all of this "foreknowledge"? Here is some more foreknowledge: Al Qaeda guys are planning terrorism right now and will strike some time in the future. Whatchagonnadooabootit? Weregerbil 18:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok but in order to stay more objective, we should set all the hypotheseis discussed including: CIA, Israel, Russia implication and Naom Shomsky; David Duke opinions, ....why to avoid those probabilities thanks.
I don't see any info about secondary explosions in this article. These were widely reported by first responders and workers at the World Trade Center. Why this is allowed to be only mentioned in the conspiracy theory section only leads to more believing there's a true conspiracy.
Why doesn't this article mention the evidence of secondary explosions? Slipgrid 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Very well, it is just the sort of information control I'm talking about… thank you for making it clear. Here is another youtube clip… don’t worry it's the last one, very clear one, you should see it:)… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKa8VE7ILI -- Lovelight 11:42 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
Golbez, your willingness, or unwillingness, to watch the clear evidence of secondary explosions, does not mean they didn't happen! Such remarks about being able or unable, willing or unwilling, to watch clear video evidence, does not belong on this page! -- Slipgrid 00:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The unfortunate reality is that an enormous body of folklore, and outright disinformation, has appeared surrounding this subject matter. Hence new material is assessed critically (and in general reasonably fairly). These suggested improvements are rejected because they lack supporting evidence and/or scientific accuracy. Peter Grey 01:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Most articles have a section about an event in popular culture. Can somebody please add it? I am aware that some may contributores may find this inappropriate for such a tragic event, but I do not find this a good reason because it is also there for other tragic event such as the Jonestown and I am not aware of any policy forbidding this. Thanks in advance. Andries 13:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
What is with the "... acording to the official story" line at the end of the introduction. It seems a bit POV to me.
Is there any plans that any of the Wikipedia Adiministrators would make a memorial page for the events of that tragic day? Also will this be able to be a permanent memorial online? -- 82.47.145.146 21:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Living at 8th St & Broadway, highest point between Empire State Building and WTC, photos we took from the rooftop, Ground Zero, Union Square and Washington Sq Park are at newyorkpix.com, added the link for a first hand view from the frozen zone. Nymichael 08:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this image the best we can do? It seems to be pretty poor quality with a lot of digital interference. I assume the only reason we are using it as the top image on this article is because it is public domain. However, we don't even actually know that it is a public domain image. It comes from the website of the US Embassy in Tanzania. It is therefore entirely possible that this photo was placed on that website with out it being in the public domain. I contend that we should find a better image to feature on this article. Bonus Onus 20:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I briefly added Template:Sep11dead, in place of the table of fatalities. I thought we might do better with a more horizontal format, and one we can hide. It turned out that the reference tags didn't work, as I should have expected. I could hard-code the notes into the template, but then we would have a second set of footnotes just for that section. I'm also not sure about transcluding content with a template. Possibly we could do something like we do with Portal:Engineering, if that's allowed in article space. Any thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 00:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
In the section 'Other potential hijackers' this sentence is included: "Plans to include Moussaoui were allegedly never completed because the al-Qaeda hierarchy allegedly had doubts about his reliability." One instance of the word 'allegedly' should be removed. Additionally, in the same section this sentence: "On May 3, 2006, a federal jury rejected the death penalty and sentenced Moussaoui to 6 life terms in prison without parole.." should have one dot removed. Mdagre 14:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Just for this minor typo in the section "Other possible hijackers": In a an video tape released in... Thanks.
Just to make things clear, here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm are some new facts which surfaced yesterday… this new data is sourced here: http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf. Until relevance of these new findings is reflected in this (and other related articles), article should stand as disputed . -- Lovelight 11:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to question the quality of the questions asked. Are we to believe there was a single question which asked: Did federal officials assist in the 9/11 terrorist attacks OR take no action to stop them SO THAT the United States could go to war in the Middle East?, and to which more than a third answered 'YES'? -- JimWae 18:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
No I am not talking about a piece of clothing... I am thinking a section about the people jumping out of the windows above the section the planes hit to escape the toxic fumes and to have there "prefered way of death" should be added, as discussed in depth in the TV programme "The Falling Man" and shown in the infamous "Falling Man" Picture shown here [18] the problem is that many people do not want to beleve this is true because some people see this as commiting suicide and most religions say if you commit suicide then you go to "hell" or the religions equivilant. SKRIBUL 09:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Link - I think this is important to add in the Responsibility section. I did add it, but someone removed it, please discuss as to why it should not be added —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.179.70.98 ( talk • contribs) 11:47, 9 September 2006
Considering that Al-Jazeera recently aired the tape of bin Laden meeting with the hijackers, I think it's fair to say the two were connected. The Lizard Wizard 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)/The Lizard Wizard
Is there a credible source describing the quote in context? It appears, if it wasn't a simple mistake (or a misquote), that 'hard evidence' is being used in its technical meaning in police procedures. No-one thinks Osama bin Laden was one of the hijackers. It doesn't the diminish the body of evidence indicating his involvement. Peter Grey 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
| The reason? Fugitives on the list must be formally charged with a crime, and bin Laden is still only a suspect in the recent attacks in New York City and Washington.
"There's going to be a considerable amount of time before anyone associated with the attacks is actually charged," said Rex Tomb, who is head of the FBI's chief fugitive publicity unit and helps decide which fugitives appear on the list. |
| The absence has also provided fodder for conspiracy theorists who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings. From this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain.
Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings. FBI officials say the wanted poster merely reflects the government's long-standing practice of relying on actual criminal charges in the notices. "There's no mystery here," said FBI spokesman Rex Tomb. "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it." David N. Kelley, the former U.S. attorney in New York who oversaw terrorism cases when bin Laden was indicted for the embassy bombings there in 1998, said he is not at all surprised by the lack of a reference to Sept. 11 on the official wanted poster. Kelley said the issue is a matter of legal restrictions and the need to be fair to any defendant. "It might seem a little strange from the outside, but it makes sense from a legal point of view," said Kelley, now in private practice. "If I were in government, I'd be troubled if I were asked to put up a wanted picture where no formal charges had been filed, no matter who it was." |
OK, under effects of 9/11 in the sidebar table of contents thingy, there's an item for "audiovisual entertainment" of tv and movies that were changed or postponed, etc. because of the attacks, but I see no reference in the article to the effects on the families of those who have died, etc.
The paragraph about schools closing that I mentioned below seems to fit that topic..... I'm suggesting that a section about the effects on families and the grief perhaps be added. Or is that just too sappy? Is there any article out there on the 9/11 widows (and all the other folks who had lost family and friends in the attacks???) I'm still pretty new so I don't know all the ins and outs of how Wikipedia works, thanks. KBecks 19:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we can add something about the 36 children whose fathers died that day, even as they (the kids) were still in their mothers' wombs. Cerebral Warrior 11:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As of this writing the article is vandalized. I am newly registered so I can't fix it. Someone please do. Might be agood idea to completely lock it, at least for today.
Simply signed on to add- thanks for this. People are going to look at this page today (duh) and many of them don't want to be reminded of the blind silliness that some people engage in in their free time.-- Arynknight 07:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to make it plain and simple. Do not add "terrorist" to the lead back. It will only be removed. -- Cat out 09:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed endlessly in the archives. Since this page is linked from the Main Page, it ought not be protected except for extreme circumstances. As such, I will summarily block anyone who chooses to edit war on this page until 12 September. -- bainer ( talk) 10:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, the word 'terrorist' has to go. I don't case what discussion, polls ect have previosuly ocurred. It is not neutral and thus violates our non-negotiable WP:NPOV. End of story. 'Terrorist' is a value judgement not a neutral description, it is thus an inherently unencyclopedic word. No doubt the UN (rightly IMO) would also describe the attacks as 'outrage' 'inhuman' 'offensive' 'criminal' 'obscene' and generally 'a Bad Thing' (and who'd disagree) but those aren't words you'd expect to find in an encyclopedic description).-- Doc 10:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how the murder of 3000 innocent people can NOT be called "terrorist." Please, today is 9/11. Let us pray for the souls of the deceased instead of insulting their memory by not terming those who so cruelly killed thousands of fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, as terrorists. Cerebral Warrior 11:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Hehehe, sorry for that...and I think I was a bit aggresive, I'm sorry for that too. We just think different and this is no place for personal dicussions anyway.-- cloviz 22:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The overwhelming majority of reliable sources call the acts terrorism. Calling them anything else would give undue weight to an extreme minority opinion. If there are reliable sources calling the acts something else, let's cite them and quote them. Tom Harrison Talk 11:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
No. Even if any reliable source calls this incident of massmurder as any thing other than terrorism, we should not include that in the article, atleast today. How do you think some widowed lady and her (fatherless) children would feel if the Moslems who murdered her husband for the "crime" of being Christian would feel if they saw that in the article? Cerebral Warrior 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Look at it this way- if today was Holocaust Memorial Day, would you guys be insisting that a Holocaust denial theory proposed by some Moslem dictator be included in the article about the Holocaust? No, you wouldn't because that would be an insult to the 7 million people who died in Nazi gas chambers. Well, today is a day when we remember the 3000 innocent men, women and children whose lifes were snuffed out by a new breed of fascists-Islamofascists. Referring to their murders as anything other than "terrorists" would be an insult to the deceased, who do not deserve to be mocked simply because they were Americans. If you are an anti-American, that's your wish, but please don't insult the departed. Cerebral Warrior 13:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust victims were murdered by the Nazis for being Jews. The 9/11 victims were murdered by Islamofascists because they were not Moslem. What's the difference? Cerebral Warrior 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am taking it easy and am sorry if it appears otherwise. I just don't like the idea of Islamists putting their warped ideologies into the article. Cerebral Warrior 14:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Terrorism is ultimatley a subjective pejorative adjective. There is no agreed definition. Most people would describe these attacks as terrorist. Indeed to say they are 'not terrorist' is IMO offensive and morally indefensible. It is akin to saying that they are 'not evil', 'not wrong' or 'not unjustifiable'. However, these are all moral value judgements which an encyclopedia should not make (no matter how universally others make them). I believe Nazism was 'a bad thing', the holocaust was 'evil', and apartheid was 'inhumane'. But I don't think we want articles saying 'Hitler was a bad man', and I'm not defending Hitler in saying that. 9-11 was dreadful, and I could use 100 perjorative adjectives to describe it (none, actually, do it justice), but there really is not need. Let the facts speak for themselves without moral value-judgements. Describe what happened, record that most people condemn it, and it is almost universally called 'terrorist'. Sane people will draw their own conclusions, and NPOV will be upheld. And yes, my sympathy and prayers to those who mourn this day.-- Doc 14:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Also why did you guys delete the memorial an Australian gentleman put up for his mother who died that day? Please don't be so cruel. How would you feel if some Islamobarbarian killed your mom just because she refused to wear a headscarf? Spare a thought for those whose lives were torn apart that day. Cerebral Warrior 14:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I didn't notice the mainpage mention-that was my fault. It should be more of a memorial rather than a factual statement though. As for Nil Einne, it is a fact that Al-Qaeda and other Islamobarbian groups have declared fatwas and dhimmis against "non-believers" in the religion of "peace". The number of Moslems killed on 9/11 was negligible compared to the number of Christian casualties. Cerebral Warrior 15:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
You moral relativists have lost your goddamned minds if you think 9/11 cannot objectively be called terrorism.
(replying to various points). I'm not a moral relativist - I condemn these attacks in the strongest possible way - as do all right thinking people. I'm uninterested in what Bin Laden, his cronies, or those who would attempt to justify them think. I'm sure 99.5% of people would judge these acts as 'terrorist' - and the rest are a minority to discount (or record in a later paragraph). But my point remains that wikipedia should not make value judgements even when 99% of people do. This is not because we want to be sensitive to the minority (in this case, to hell with them), but because an encyclopedia records facts, and records opinions, it does not make judgements and pronounce opinions, no matter how universally those judgements or opinions may be held. We don't call Hitler 'evil', flat-earth theories 'wrong', or the holocaust 'inhumane', even if we ALL agree that those statements would be true. In actual fact, insisting that we need judgemental term in articles like this is almost to trivialise the subject - the facts, if properly recorded, speak for themselves. -- Doc 18:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The logic here is backwards. "Terrrorism" is an objective term. Not using 'terrorist' to describe people engaging in terrorism would be imposing a PoV. (Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Terrorism: 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.) Peter Grey 20:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that this whole thing is Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.'s fault. Personally they should have left Osama bin Laden alone. He didn't do anything to us and he wasn't bothering us. So Bush Sr. should have kept that big-ass mouth of his shut because when he made that speech about looking for bin Laden and invading Iraq, bin Laden marked the time and date to get that sick skinny bastard back. Then sure enough, a few years later, we lost about 1/25 of our US population because bin Laden went back out for revenge.
Al-Jazeera referred to the attacks as "terror attacks" http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4615A330-9544-42B0-A3CF-E308F0172EA8.htm If they are biased, it certainly isn't towards the American view. -- Citicat 01:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Didn't do anything to us? He orchestrated acts of terrorism that date back way before Bush Sr. said anything about him. Take a look at bin Laden's history before you say things like that.
First off, the Americans need to seriously chill. I mean, sure, it was bad for the 3,500 who died and their families, but to say stuff like "Please, today is 9/11. Let us pray for the souls of the deceased instead of insulting their memory by not terming those who so cruelly killed thousands of fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, as terrorists." is getting a bit out of hand. The body count would be ignored if this had happened to Mauritanians or Eritreans. 400,000 have died in Darfur already, a million were slaughtered in the Rwandan genocide, 9,000 people die of AIDS every day: yet somehow one never hears such emotional pleas. In any case, the EU defines terrorism as "serious offences against persons and property which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of: seriously intimidating a population; or unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act; or seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation." which was obviously what Al-Qa'ida did, so I see no problem in the usage of "terrorist" here. EamonnPKeane 09:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"an act of unprovoked, brutal Islamofascism"? I direct you to September 11, 2001 attacks#Motive. Like most people, I don't know enough about this to say whether there was any tangible justification or not, but you can't pretend it's only a simple matter of some crazy Arabs who "hate freedom". EamonnPKeane 16:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"In any case, thick smoke and intense heat prevented rescue helicopters from landing." I flagged this as needing a citation; it may be that is better to just delete it as irrelevant, but I thought I'd raise it here first. -- Guinnog 11:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
How about creating for example Popular culture (or Social impact) section? -- Brand спойт 13:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't find a link to the September 11, 2001 wiki, so I added it under "memorials". If there's been discussion about this link that I missed, please feel free to revert. -- ESP 16:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The lead link is currently to the U.N. I think that this like is acceptably broad and authoritative for the first sentence. Recently, someone tried to add a retrospective link (looking back after 5 years) to the middle of that sentence. Wouldn't it be better to move this link down somewhere into the body of the article, footnoting some summary of the ramifications? - Harmil 16:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And now we have a second editor actually moving the U.N. link out of the first paragraph! [20] Can we please, decided specifically, what link we want to lead this article? IMHO it needs to be one that authoritatively addresses one of the two core assertions of the article: that the attacks happened or that they were acts of terrorism. Both are addressed by the U.N. link, so why do people not want to lead with that? - Harmil 18:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been asking for sprotection on this page on #wikipedia for a while now. No one seems to be available. I'm going to stop reverting, and let others take over for a while. The vandalism continues apace, and is making editing by reasonable users (such as Tom, above) difficult at best. sprotection would solve this. Someone, please take notice. Thanks. - Harmil 17:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The section about other potential terrorists (ok, hijackers) is quite long, and is given more attention than is probably needed in this main article. Anyone have a good idea for breaking this off into its own article and then shortening the section? If survivors and the hijackers sections are so small.... the potential hijackers section requires even less space, IMO. Thank you! KBecks 18:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Oh and if it's too difficult to edit today, I understand! KBecks 18:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(I put this on top of the list yesterday when it should have been down here at the bottom --- still learning my way around Wiki...) KBecks 18:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm finding the section on fatalities choppy -- the paragraph about schools closing, etc. almost seems like it doesn't fit under fatalities, except for the part about many people being from certain towns. Could the school closings be moved to another section (is there something about NYC area response / reaction??) -- Anyway, I think that at least the paragraph of school closings could be bumped down a paragraph or two to the end of that section -- it seems the paragraph about the city identifying people/bodies is better flow-wise....
Anyway, I didn't want to change it w/o running it by here. KBecks 18:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems like the part about the Moussaui (sp??) trial under other hijackers is getting way off-topic about 9/11. This content probably belongs under Moussaui's own biography entry, and doesn't make sense in the 9/11 article. I find it very distracting and off-topic to the article..... Probably best not to edit today because of all the crazy changes going on, but I wanted to point it out. Would someone please help with this when there's a chance? Thanks. KBecks 18:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that the Public Response section should come first, then International Reaction.. (logically starting with the reactions closest to the tragedy, then the rest of the world).
The paragraph about Guantanamo Bay under International Reaction is more appropriate to the next section about U.S. Government Response -- it should fit in there somewhere...probably under War on Terrorism.
I also feel that the Alternate Theories blurb (listed under Reaction), might better fit under the Motive section.
Not editing today because of all the traffic, but wanted to note these suggestions. KBecks 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The picture on this article must be removed now. Read if for some deities sake, its telling people to call 911 and hold the phone.
Given the amount of vandalism, I think sprotection is warranted for now. ++ Lar: t/ c 22:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there are no objections, I'll wait for one more day and put that link in article under multimedia section… if you know of any reason why "NORAD interactive" shouldn’t be enlisted, please say so… -- Lovelight 00:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the use of terrorists in the first paragraph should be changed to hijackers or such, as terrorist is an extremly derogatory and POV term. I realise it may be controversial to change though, so I thought I should ask first. Pauric 22:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Keeps being changed. It shifts from color to black and white. The North and South tower reverse foreground and background. If you change the photo, please rewrite the cutline correctly.-- Cberlet 23:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
-Don't edit the caption on the image, the North tower is on the right, and the South tower is on the left. The North Tower was hit higher up, (which is one reason why it was last to fall) and was hit first. The South Tower was hit lower than the North Tower, and was hit second. This is a satellite of the towers: [21] It is from the NE looking SW. You can clearly see the antenna on the north tower. [22] -This image shows the North Tower on the right, you can see it is burning from an area closer to its roof, and you can see it's antenna very plainly in the upper right hand part of the image. [23] -Here is a picture of the north tower, you can clearly see the North Tower is the building on the right hand side of the original image. [24] -That is a picture of the North Tower burning, while the plane is about to strike the south tower at a location lower on the tower. [25] -Another angle on the same side as the original image. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. The North Tower is on the right hand side, and the South tower is on the left. -- KCMODevin 11 September 2006
Whether right or left depends on the direction the picture was taken from, and the various pictures are from different angles. Like Cberlet pointed out, a change in the image requires (sometimes) a change to the caption. As of 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC), the image is the view from the West, 1 WTC is in the foreground, 2 WTC the background (with neither clearly left or right of the other). Peter Grey 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
From the "Other potential attacks" section:
I'm not entirely sure what this is saying, but it seems a bit odd; "simultaneous" and "still hanging around in the boarding lounge near a TV set when the main attack happened" don't quite seem to suggest the same thing. I've marked it as needing a source; hopefully a direct quote or two will help clear up the ambiguity. Shimgray | talk | 23:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
In "The attacks" sections it says (should say) "Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near..." However, the photo is covering some of the text so that it looks like "Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed field near." Not a major issue, but still confusing anyways, and, I think this subject derserves perfection, don't you? Thanks. Wolfie001 00:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There were reports during the morning of September 11 that there was a fire in the National Mall in D.C. Does anyone know what the cause of this was? Should it be mentioned anywhere in the article (or one of the articles in the 9/11 series). 69.40.247.238 00:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, can we chill on the caption? The original image with an orange fireball was quickly determined to be a copyrighted AP photo, and speedily deleted; hence the deletion tag. In its place was placed the current gray pic with lots of smoke. There may be some issues with cache, but I just purged the page, so that should be gone. In any case, if you see orange, you're seeing an old picture. There is no explosion in either building, but the antenna is clearly visible in the RIGHT FOREGROUND tower. -- Mmx1 01:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The image that is now in the lead section is the old, copyrighted, image which has been re-uploaded by someone claiming to have released it to the public domain. This is obviously questionable, given that there is no information given about the location, time or identity of the photographer ( Image:Wtcsouthhit911.JPG).
HOWEVER, rather than simply removing this image (as it rightly was from commons), and since it is so iconic, and there is no way to replace it with any free image of that particular moment in time (see WP:FAIR), I suggest that we instead nail down the ownership and copyright info on this particular image and make a reasonable claim to fair use. Does anyone have the original source handy? - Harmil 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I honestly don't know what the right course of action here is, because it's kind of a mess, but I have noticed that the timeline article Aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks is being used for two completely different purposes, probably because the word 'Aftermath' suggested 'Effects' to someone. That article is being used for:
I don't know if what is needed here is a merger of the 'Aftermath' effects into this article, or going the other way to say 'Main article: Effects of the attacks' in this article, and moving what effects are here to that location, or what...but it's a mess. What I am certain of is that there are two relatively complete articles wedged into one place, and I don't know of a good way to pull them apart. Input or action appreciated. Skybunny 19:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The page states that the youngest victim was 17, but I have read that really the youngest victim was 2. "Christine Hanson, 2, of Groton, Mass., was the youngest. She and her parents were aboard the plane that crashed into the south tower." http://www.sptimes.com/2002/09/08/911/911__45_Questions.shtml
A consultant, John Lozowsky, is missing from the Marsh Memorial at http://memorial.mmc.com. I'm providing the following as supporting documentation. I sent an email (via their site's inquiry form, so no copy) asking about this and received the following on September 7, 2006:
"Thank you for contacting us with this information. All of the names that appear on the MMC Memorial site have permission from the families to be posted there; if a name does not appear, that is because there was not consent to do so.
"Jessica Zimny Associate, Corporate Social Responsibility & Philanthropic Programs Marsh & McLennan Companies, Inc."
I removed material irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Richard G. Shewmaker 02:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The page is locked, so I can't edit it, but the top image's caption has the towers mislabeled. The South tower, the second to be hit, hit by Flight 175, in the background, is on the left.
The article at Mohamed Atta al-Sayed was recently moved to Muhammad `Ata as-Sayyid. There's discussion here on whether this was the right thing to do or not. Any input would be appreciated. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 13:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The North tower had the antenna shown. No antenna of the size shown in the article's first illustration was on the South tower. The illustation's caption is incorrect. -- CliffC 17:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The subject is moot if the new replacement image of the Towers "sticks", but the "left" > < "right" word switch by User:Peter_Grey has put the caption exactly backward again. See above talk subject "North WTC tower had the antenna, not the South tower". -- CliffC 22:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
This section of links is anemic at best, and incredibly impartial, though how could it be given the title. What would be the argument for not including actual, notable, conspiracy theory links? Aside from the obvious personal reasons. Viswamitra 07:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Paranoid fictions and partisan, religious and racial hate have no place beside factual articles (implementation of this by the Drive By media would mean its self-immolation; hardly a bad thing). By writing only the facts, the conspiracy "theorists" are automatically refuted.
After all, the crackpot theories of Holocaust deniers do not warrant being placed in full next to an article on the Shoah.
Given the rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, and sadly, even amongst far Left-wing (and not so "far") Americans, excluding this propaganda is even more relevant since many of the so-called conspiracies "theories" revolve around the Mossad's having perpetrated the terror attacks ("Hey, guys! Let's attack our best ally, biggest financial supporter and main supplier of weapons and all to make terrorists look bad!"). E.g., "All of the Jews stayed home from work" or "All of the Jews were secretly warned (how? conference call? Mass email?) to stay away from the WTC on 9/11."
Listing such garbage on an equal footing with the facts only dignifies it.
PainMan 16:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Whoever removed this comment of mine had no right do so (even if he or she had the "power"). You can't make ideas you don't like go away by simply deleting them.
PainMan 20:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I moved the link from the Congressional report on 9/11 from the 9/11 Commission Report page to here. -- Sloane ( talk) 18:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)