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Is it necessary to have two photos of him included? KyuuA4 04:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
A thought just occurred to me. Do the fatality figures for the planes given on this page include the hijackers? 'cos I'm not sure if they should. Either way we should make it clear whether or not they do. Kingal86 23:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11, 2001, attacks. Commas in dates, geographical locations, &c., function as marks of parenthesis. The parenthesis has be closed by a second mark. Think of it like "September 11 (2001) attacks" and the "Arlington (Virginia) Pentagon". We don't leave off ")"—so we don't leave off the comma. Just as we write "Arlington, Virginia, U.S.A., is the location of the Pentagon" and "Tuesday, September 11, 2001, was an important day", we also do this when the multi-word term functions attributively. Associated Press example from late March 2005: "Four suspected Islamist radicals went on trial in Paris on charges that they provided false documents to two Tunisians who posed as journalists and killed the celebrated Afghan resistance hero Ahmed Shah Massoud two days before the September 11, 2001, attacks in the United States." — President Lethe 21:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A change to September 11 attacks would remove this figment; is it not done because of some ambiguity? Septentrionalis 15:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that this is not supported, and I agree with the arguments. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 13:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
What "arguments"? I see arguments here in favor of punctuating correctly (i.e., with commas setting off the year, a parenthetical element), but I haven't seen any "arguments" in favor of sticking one comma in the middle of the sentence for no reason. There are a few general refusals to change, but saying "no, you're wrong" is not an "argument." Find one authoritative source that supports using one comma in this way, and I'll give it up. 65.107.70.253 16:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
See also The 9/11 Commission Report, Preface at xv: "September 11, 2001, was a day of unprecedented shock and suffering in the history of the United States." Anyone have any reputable counter-examples? 65.107.70.253 16:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
See also the New York Times, June 24, 2006, A3: "majorities in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan and Turkey . . . said, for example, that they did not believe that Arabs had carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States"; New York Times, June 19, 2006, A11: "The United States said a small cell of Al Qaeda, made up of foreigners, had set up shop in Mogadishu after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and were being protected by court leaders"; New York Times, April 30, 2006, 44: "Mr. Deutch also began to require special approval for the use of unsavory characters as agency informants -- a policy suspended after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when officers argued that only terrorists would know of plans for the next attack." I can provide thousands of other examples from authoritative sources. Anyone have any persuasive authorities in favor of using only one comma? I couldn't find any. 65.107.70.253 15:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Read about the mainstream coverage:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CDCC04E2-8DE8-4625-B380-DD74EC0F3AC9.htm
Its a disgrace for wikipedia that the Charlie Sheen and Alex Jones interviews are deleted as non-notable when aljazeera stats:
We've got a lot of pictures on this page. Does anybody object to the removal of that one? I know it has meaning and stuff, but it seems excessive for it to be on the page. It's like a shock photo. Graphic and disturbing. I think we should just link to it's page. SkeenaR 04:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored. See Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse for examples. -- Mmx1 04:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok. I don't feel that strongly that it should be removed. But, just so you know what I mean, in the case of the torture photos I think the graphic imagery is more pertinent to the article. The imagery is the proof, and the imagery is what caused the controversy. I think this is different. I don't think anyone would argue that we need severed limbs or entrails in this article either. SkeenaR 04:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. SkeenaR 20:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Here guys, another one you can insult: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/280606latestcelebrity.htm]-- Striver 14:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
There is an obvious mathematical error under the first subheading ("The attacks"). The fatality total is listed as 2986, made up of the sums of 265, 2595, and 125. The problem is pretty clear: 265 + 2595 + 125 = 2985, not 2986.
I attempted to fix this error by adding one to the plane total (I based the 266 number on the fatality table in the "fatalities" section of the entry), but another editor erased my correction and changed the "fatalities" section to reflect a 265 number. I do not dispute this change, as it was cited and appears to be correct. However, because the 2986 number was likely based on the faulty flight fatalities, I am going to revise the total casualty number down by one.
I have not provided a source for the 2985 number because, frankly, sources conflict. I have begun to look for a reliable source for fatality numbers, and if I find a good one I will revise all the numbers to reflect it. However, given that we have conflicting sources, I think it makes sense to make the Wiki entry internally consistent. Right now there is a blatant mathematical error on the page, which is a major problem. If anyone does not like my revision, please feel free to fix it--but re-creating an obvious math error on a major wiki page by reverting to the old version is NOT a "fix." We should not have a total that is different from the sum of its supposed parts.
Guys, look what Alex linked to: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/010706casestudy.htm]. Lately, Alex have leand more and more to including material that supports that the pentagon was hit by a plane. I find the arguements compelling. I have never been to sure regarding either version, and i still have unanswered questions regarding Pentagon, but if asked, i now support that it was hit by a plance. -- Striver 13:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The video doesn't show a Boeing 757. This picture also doesn't show damage that would be caused by a Boeing 757. It's worth noting that some windows are not broken. Engineers at Purdue produced a simulation of the theory behind the Pentagon attacks.
I want to add...
http://www.911.colleenmcgarry.com
Can I get permission?
I want to add...
http://www.socialistworker.org/Featured/WarOnTerror.shtml#Sept11
Can I get permission?
I think wikipedia should try and remain unbiased, even if such emotionally disturbing topics are involved. Widely disputed facts should not be presented as "the truth" without reservation. Please someone tell me what happend to bin Laden. Is this what kidney-dialasis will do to your face? |
Morton/Matt, I've moved your comment here, as you inserted it in the middle of my comment. Now my reaction: mainstream reports are citing the government view, without much of a dispute. So far I agree. This makes the media sources verifiable, but not necessarily trustworthy. About the propagandists: you are entitled to your view about this. The LA conference end of June however made headlines in the major newspapers here in Holland, I think mainly because of the size of the conference (1200 participants). It is not just a few internet freaks and paranoid people, but it also includes former ministers Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow so I maintain my view that the dispute is not only strong, but also wide. And this means that wikipedia must be very careful in presenting the facts, and not beliefs as if they were facts. The mainstream view is a belief as much as the "propagandists'" view. That's my opinion. — Xiutwel (talk) 17:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
# (cur) (last) 15:01, 4 July 2006 Tom harrison (Talk | contribs) (rm conspiracy theory; rm promotional link) # (cur) (last) 14:51, 4 July 2006 Xiutwel (Talk | contribs) (→Responsibility - see bin Laden article)
I've re-inserted the fact that the FBI does not accuse bin Laden of 911-involvement. Personally, I presume this can only be so if they too believe the confession-video could be a fake. They would have enough evidence, if he confessed, wouldn't they?
I am not, for the moment, reinserting doubts on the confession video's. Let's leave that for a later stage.
Thanks, — Xiutwel (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
As to responsibility and documentation, here is an image from and video of the Osama bin Laden confession tape that was found in Jalalabad.
It's actually quite depressing that Wikipedia is still not able to present a decent, unbiased, article about 9-11. The bias pervades the whole article, Dick Cheney might have written it himself! It's very proper that this article was taken out of the category of featured articles. Sacca 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I wonder is there not any template that can be applied to this article? Widely disputed article for example? Just so that the people who read it are aware? Sacca 11:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
There are such tags, and would be properly used here.{{neutrality}} Actually, it's time the tag went up for sure, because the neutrality is heavily disputed as one can see from reading this talk page. But I'm willing to bet if the tag was placed at the top of the article, it would be removed without explanation. SkeenaR 15:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sacca,
[[Image:Example.jpg]]
I think it is clear to everyone involved that this page is highly disputed. That said, I would prefer if we can avoid resorting to adding Disputed Tags to the article - at least until we try harder to gain consensus over how NPOV and Verifiability apply in this case. As a specific example of a disputed fact is the continued exclusion of all reference to mainstream media accounts of Molten Metal sightings at Ground Zero on and after the attacks. For more detail on the Molten Metal discussion, see [ [1]] For mainstream source material, see: [ [2]]
This is a clear example of a Disputed Fact. It is well documented by multiple credible mainstream sources, but has been excluded from Wikipedia because it may not fit the official account of events. It is clearly a violation of NPOV to exclude this notable and verifiable fact: "Molten Metal was observed at the site of Ground Zero for days and weeks after the attacks.
Whether or not you agree that reference to Molten Metal should be included in the article. Does anyone wish to argue the fact that it isn't even disputed? Digiterata 22:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting that nobody bothers to show any evidence for who the hijackers actualy were. It's even more interesting when you consider that the FBI admited that the hijackers were using assumed names and fake IDs. In fact, the 19 names of suspected hijackers released by the FBI don't even appear on the passenger lists of the hijacked planes. So, who were they, really? If Wikipedia is going to say that these men were "Affiliated with Al-Quieda" then it damm well better back that up with some evidence. So far, all I see in this regard is a lot of alegations and not much evidence. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers_flt_175.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/U175pass.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.victims.html
-- Allthenamesarealreadytaken 04:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories are against the wikipedia policy and it is considered a form of vandalism. DO not post them here. -- Allthenamesarealreadytaken 04:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
To keep the lead section concise, I have removed the following:
I don't think it's necessary to add what was in parentheses. For example, simply saying the Pentagon is much more concise way of saying "headquarters of the US military". The part about "crime against humanity" is also too detailed for the intro section (and should be cited). - Aude ( talk contribs) 23:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not original research but common knowledge. Is there a dispute regarding The term " Let's roll" would later become the war cry for those fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan? patsw 18:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
We now have an infobox... on terrorist attacks? Oy vey. Is this *really* needed? -- Golbez 07:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree they are so ugly and plus the official death toll is 2,986 not 2,976!! Litte Spike 2:37am EST, July 15th, 2006
'Terrorism' is a highly subjective term, and I do not think it has a place in a NPOV article unless it is in a quote attributed to a specific person. Therefore, could the presumed attackers be described as 'Islamic militants' instead?
I realise this is an emotional subject for many of you, but that is no reason to throw away objectivity. Damburger 15:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
You might want to examine the discussion archives where this has come up quite often. The editing consensus for this page before the issuance of the report of
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States was that attacks were terrorist in nature and the perpetrators terrorists and since that report was issued it confirmed the judgement of the editors here. The specific objection you raise terrorism is a highly subjective term was thoroughly argued in the past. If you don't bring anything new to the discussion, it will remain as it is.
patsw 18:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
By any definition it would seem that hijacking a commercial airliner is prima facie evidence of terrorism. Levi P. 18:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Terrorist/terrorism is not a "POV term" when it is used in a factual, non-propagandistic way (i.e. not as an insult). Actually, trying to force the use of vague language and euphemism is a form of POV-pushing. Mirror Vax 06:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Damburger, Carriles is said to be involved in "numerous violent terrorist plots" in the first sentence of the article. That the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is considered by some to be terrorism is included in the article about the bombings. There are official definitions of "terrorism" and of "terrorist". 9/11 and those involved fit the respective definitions. JDoorj a m Talk 07:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Given that people have stopped answering, and I've blown the mentioned objections completely out of the water, can I take that to mean people don't mind the change? Damburger 09:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that some individuals destroyed this site!! The death toll is stated at 3,000, than 2,985, and than 2,976 all in the same article!! Whats up with this Wikipedia? This article is one of the most important ones on Wikipedia at this time and its filled with mis information and in reality the actual official death toll is 2,986!! - Litte Spike 3:46pm EST, July 15th, 2006
the death toll on the article does not seem to reflect the downward revision that occured in October of 2003, [5] so I'm going to change it in the article. Mike McGregor (Can) 04:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
WHERE IS THE NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW FOR THIS PAGE!!
I try to put in the qualifiers and I get a message that says that I'm a vandal.
This page is simply an extension of the mainstream media propaganda.
9/11 was an inside job.
You don't have to say it was but you can't have a fair encyclopedia entry on 9/11 if you don't state both viewpoints SIDE BY SIDE.
Further down the article does have some qualifiers. Good to see!
But they must be througout the article.
This is an example of showing both viewpoints: Some passengers and crew members were able to make phone calls from the hijacked flights, though this is disputed as analysis of the voice indicate no panic, and the people couldn’t answer simple, straight questions. They reported that multiple hijackers were aboard each plane. A total of 19 were later identified by the FBI, four on United 93 and five each on the other three flights. Though conspiracy theorists point out that the Arlington county coroner said, “To this day I have not seen one drop of blood, not one.”124.168.86.15, 09:40, July 18, 2006
There already is a page for this. OH MY GOD LOOK WHAT WE HAVE HERE! Did you not ready the numerous debates about this already? Squiggyfm 17:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
NPOV does not mean putting reality and fantasy on an equal footing. Peter Grey 19:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Please explain Peter, that was sorta ambiguous. Squiggyfm 20:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is this 9/11 series so incredibly huge?? It rivals WW2 articles in size. And is far larger than descriptions of many wars lasting many years and claiming incredible human victims (like Rwandan_Genocide, Darfur_conflict, Srebrenica_massacre, Algerian Civil War, Second Congo War, to name a few) Wouldnt one, or two, or three articles be quite enough for describing a single event? -- Aryah 03:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you people serious? An inside job? You throw out these theories without a single shred of credible proof. "The passengers on the plane didn't sound distressed"....what? How is that proof in any way? But hey, at least the Arlington coroner didn't see any blood...still more concrete proof of a conspiracy. What's next? Elvis planned the whole thing? All of the conspiracy theorists that post on this board need to lay off the crystal meth and see if that helps the paranoia issues at all.
(from above)
( Personal attack removed)-- ThaThinker 04:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
If what I wrote is a personal attack instead of the truth, let him allow some items that 9/11 skeptics would wish that are up to acceptable standards. The Abel Danger program is a matter of Congressional record, and Sibel Edmonds has been the subject of numerous news reports and a lengthy piece in Vanity Fair. She says she read documents describing the funding of 9/11, but she and the Congress have been gagged, and no grand jury or other Congressional inquiry has seen that any wrongdoers are brought to justice on account of her testimony. These topics are not allowed on this page, but we are not citing blogs. These allegations are as yet unproven, but so are doubts about the JFK assasination, or claims that an intellegent being called [God] created the Universe; but these two unproven ideas appear on their respective Wikipedia pages. Although they have not been confrimed, their articles include their claims as told from a neutral point of view. From a scientific point of view, allegations concerning 9/11 indeed verifiable and falsifiable. There are no grounds to exclude these topics, but although Wikipedia rules say minority opinions should be included in an article (especially a main one, IMHO), they are not. I don't think a few sentences to acknowledge the existence of a minority opinion is what those who drafted the rules on minority views had in mind.
I have not belittled Morton's intelligence, nor attacked him in any other way, except to say that when he claims he will allow qualified items, experience has shown that what he says is not the case. -- ThaThinker 15:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, now I'm being censored for asking for a Wikipedia editor to live up to his statment. (Comments restored -- JDoorj a m Talk 22:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC))
One of the many things that was removed, that was not a personal attack, was that my remarks are directed toward fixing THIS article. Again, if we are to have an article 911 Conspiracy Theories, the official account belongs there too. To put only 911 skeptical information there is POV. THIS article is still badly POV. Also removed were some comments direected toward fixing this article, which were also not personal attacks.
Anybody notice the recent New Yorker story about how the CIA withheld information from an FBI agent Al-Queada before 9/11?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/v-pfriendly/story/432036p-364067c.html
In Research in Political Economy", vol. 23, the writer of this serious academic series also find serious questions about 9/11:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PZarembka/volume23.htm
My request that Morton live up to his statement "If you were citing sources which satisfy Wikipedia standards of verifiability and reputable sources, then nobody would be reverting you."
Among some of the things that were removed were a request that the case of Abel Danger, which is part of the Congressional record, be included, and Sibel Edmonds' case, which has been the subject of many news stories, including Vanity Fair, and who's credentials had been verified in a secret session of congress, be included. Also removed, were a list of four administrators who were blocking this sort of information that meets Wikipedia guidelines( Personal attack removed). His personal page also admits his non-neutral point of view that 9/11 skeptics are nuts. Fine, but that's an opinion, not NPOV. -- ThaThinker 22:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no intention of getting into a personal dispute with you T. If we're going to debate, let's debate about whether an edit adheres or doesn't adhere to Wikipedia policy -- that's our yardstick around here for new edits. Having said that, if you want to include stuff that falls on the grey side of Wiki policy, add it to the 9/11 conspiracy theories page, as we're consciously looser over there. Morton Devonshire Yo
Should there be additional information in the section "Long-term effects", after the statement about the FAA grounding, about the lack of air traffic and contrails causing detectable climate changes in the U.S. For example, Wired News has an article on it, and more sources could easily be found. -- Cipherswarm 16:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As per the discussion about the term "terrorism" above which seemed to conclude with nobody objecting to it being a POV statement, I changed the article.
However, people are blindly reverting this without refering to the talk page. If I keep reverting it back to what was discussed here I'll be blocked under the 3RR. The people reverting it won't because there are large numbers of them.
What is the point of having a talk page if opinionated morons can overwhelm the article with pro-American POV insertions? Damburger 14:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: Mmx1 has just reverted the changes I made once again, WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THEM HERE. I discussed my edit at great length for DAYS before I made it, yet there are people reverting them without any discussion here at all.
I'd also like to point out, that just because one POV is very popular amongst the US media, it does not qualify as a fact. It is STILL JUST A POV
Damburger 14:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I made all the comments I needed in the edit summary. -- Mmx1 14:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and I tore your 'reasoning' apart here. What you are invoking is an Appeal to popularity fallacy. Of course, becaues of the 3RR I can't revert your POV, but that doesn't make you right. Damburger 14:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The article must separate the facts from interpretations, and must not blindly treat "official" interpretation as true.
Just one example:
Compare with: Organizers of the September 11, 2001 attacks: At least eight of the names on the FBI's list have been called into doubt.
And with al-Qaeda: According to the controversial BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares, al-Qaeda is so weakly linked together that it is hard to say it exists apart from Osama bin Laden and a small clique of close associates. The lack of any significant numbers of convicted al-Qaeda members despite a large number of arrests on terrorism charges is cited by the documentary as a reason to doubt whether a widespread entity that meets the description of al-Qaeda exists at all. The extent and nature of al-Qaeda remains a topic of dispute.
So it isn't all that clear whether there really were exactly 19 people, who were they, and whether they were really "affiliated with al-Qaeda" in literal sense. There are many more cases where the article blindly accepts the "official" version. We cannot do that, as it threatens neutrality and quality of Wikipedia. Taw 14:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
"Not just Americans use the term "terrorism" in reference to 9/11. So does Kofi Annan of the United Nations, as do the news media in the U.K., France, Germany, China, Canada, and the list could go on... There is wide agreement among countless reliable sources that 9/11 was an act of terrorism.
Obviously, numbers once again win out over logic and intelligence here thanks to the 3RR. This is one of the biggest weaknesses of wikipedia. Damburger 07:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe there is even a discussion right now over whether or not September 11 was a terrorist attack. I hope to God you guys don't write history books. NOTHING will ever get done. Stanselmdoc 13:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
It crops up from time to time. I don't know why. -- Mr. Billion 17:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
At the very least, Damburger, wouldn't you agree that the sources cited above (Xinhua etc al.) address your concern of a "mainstream western media"-centric viewpoint? Also, what was the attack if not terrorism? Can't we reasonably conclude that Al-Queda (or whichever composite group the hijackers belonged to) pursues an agenda of "violence [...] to generate fear, cause disruption, and ultimately to bring about compliance w/ specific political, religious, [and] ideological goals," per Wikipedia's own definition of terrorism?
I guess we can discuss the second point, but I don't see know you can continue to maintain a position that only the "western media" refers to the attacks as terrorist. Icewolf34 17:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
From Merriam-Webster terrorism Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m Function: noun the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
I borrowed that from the top of the talk page. Anyway, by definition, 9/11 was a terrorist attack. Did the militants (to avoid pissing certain people off) use terror? Yes. Did they use it as a means of coercion, or at least attempted coetcion? Yes. Therefore, it was an act of terrorism.
You talk about pro-American editors ramming a POV down your throat and in the article, saying they have no argument. I've yet to see any validated argument from you. Your also ramming your POV into the article when you keep trying to revert it.
Damburger 09:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
We can't refute your arguments? Look at this entire section and tell me that with a straight face. Your "argument" has been refuted pretty much every time you open your mouth about it.
Honestly, I'm suprised this page hasn't been locked to editing... Someguy-021 05:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)Someguy-021
Despite being threatened, blocked inappropriately, and having my cogent arguments plainly ignored by people hell bent of enforcing an American POV, I am not going to give this up. The fact remains, no matter how many news sources you cite, or dictionary definitions you come up with (which, by the way, don't imply NPOV. "Wanker" has a definition in the OED) 'terrorist' is still a POV term. Wikipedia states this elsewhere, why can't it be consistent with itself here? What you Americans never seem to get is that many opinions which are popular in the US are fringe opinions worldwide - after all, the US only represents about 5% of the population. Talk about undue weight. Damburger 15:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that it was a terrorist attack is hard to dispute. Even for those who might believe that the gov't was complicit in the attacks, does not negate the fact that the attack falls under the definition of terrorist...it would just mean that the gov't factions supposedly involved were the terrorist in question.
Now whether Al-Quaida were the terrorists who committed the attack, now that is questionable, especially when 5-7 of the suspected are still alive. I can find the sources for this if they have not previously been posted. Mablespam 06:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
That if there continue to be problems regarding discussion of 911, rather than discussion of the article, that interested parties do so at our discussion site, abovetopsecret.com, or more specifically our 911 Forum. I only mention this in hopes of helping the wikipedia to avoid unwanted discussions. We also have a wikipedia ( the Tinwiki) that is perhaps more appropriate for some of the controversial aspects of these topics Nygdan 04:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
facts and POV, amke make a clear distinction, too.
We all know that the majority of people do not read the whole article, but rather they focus on the first lines to see what's all about, so let's concentrate on the first paragraphs, even though the rest of the article is still of major importance.
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist attacks upon the United States, predominantly targeting civilians, carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001.
This may be considered right, especially when the word "terrorist" may identify a variety of people, even governments if necessary.
That morning, 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda [1] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Each team of hijackers included a trained pilot.
There is no actual evidence to support this claim. The official story has been under investigation by a numerous amount of indipendent journalists, writers and individuals. If Wikipedia is really open as it should, it has to include something like:
According to the 9/11 Commission Report [...], yet many doubts about the facts presented are still unanswered (link to conspiracy theories/truth behind or list of plausible explanations)
Just to be fair and square, you know. Federico Pistono ✆ ✍ 14:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This might be tangental, but the problem with this logic is that it can be argued that WMD were found in Iraq, since FOX news ( a so-called reputable news source) has stated as fact that WMD were found in Iraq. Furthermore, when independent media points out the fallacy in this, they should not garner credibility because they are on the fringe?
I do not consider myself a conspiracy nut, but rather an engineer, man of science and "doubting Thomas" who relies on scientific evidence, not merely popularity of purported fact in mainstream media. If anyone can show that 19 suspects of the attacks were al-quaida members and that 5-7 were not found alive, i would be rather intrigued to see the facts other than "official reports say so." Mablespam 06:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I found this link about the Pentagon, I think its worthy for inclusion [6] -- Hamish ( Talk) 16:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Reaction From Morning Shows An unlikely source of news and comfort for New Yorkers and others across the country was Howard Stern, who kept listeners constantly updated on what was happening at the Trade Center and across New York City. Several listeners and frequent guest Crazy Cabbie called in to report what they were witnessing from various parts of the city. The Stern Show kept broadcasting well beyond its normal hours until mid-afternoon, in an attempt to provide a voice of reason in the aftermath.
I am disappointed to find this was deleted from the article on Apr 21, I had to do alot of searching to find out why, all the discussion was one-sided (archived Apr 2006). I can assert that it was more than a few listeners that day, likely more than usual due to the fact many radio and television transmitters were knocked out in the attacks, leaving fewer sources of information. In addition, the west coast markets heard the broadcast live, whereas normally the show is delayed. People in dozens of cities around the country listened to observers in New York who were mere blocks away from the events of 9/11. Maybe it cannot be added back entirely, perhaps re-written or just linked somewhere. This broadcast was part of the history of that day, surely someone out there agrees. Barrel-rider 05:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This Wikipedia entry is a blot on the fair name of Wikipedia.
Countless eminent scholars have pointed out NUMEROUS holes in the official story -- the use of thermate to damage the main structural columns of WTC 1 & 2, the removal of the evidence from the crime scene, the conflicting defense exercises on 9/11, the fact that WTC 7 was NOT hit by an aircraft but collapsed in its own footprint, commercial airliners CAN'T be flown at those speeds and maneovers because of their force feed-back systems, Hani Hanjour could barely fly a Cessna let alone a sophisticated airliner, the Pentagon showed virtually no signs of airliner wreckage, and on and on ad nauseum.
Retired US generals have come out in support of 9/11 conspiracy, Hollywood actors, schoolteachers, university professors, rock singers (Ministry, Slipknot, etc), journalists (yes, even the ones that don't submit 9/11 articles because their employers are PAID not to run the stuff (email me and I'll tell you some names)), school kids, tradesmen, etc, etc.
How many more people will it take before this section of Wikipedia at least QUALIFIES its statements to reflect the possibility that 4 inept patsies may not have pulled 9/11 but a cabal of US government officials including Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, GW Bush, Bill Clinton, Larry Silverstein, and a host of others pulled 9/11 to win the hearts and minds of the population to motivate the to go to war in Afgahnistan and Iraq (and perhaps Iran, etc).
Ministry have released a 9/11 conspiracy song "Lies, Lies, Lies"
"We're on a mission to never forget 3,000 people that I've never met We want some answers but all that we get Is some kinda shit about a terrorist threat."
Until this Wikipedia entry reflects reality, it will remain a part of the conspiracy that 9/11 was.
"A time when silence is betrayal" Martin Luther King
1. The real history of Al-Qaeda from the BBC [7] 2. In-depth analysis of the 9/11 commission [8] 3. Just some of the many unanswered questions that you wont find on Wikipedia, but the LA Times published [9] 4.A poll shows a third of Americans that the US helped in the 9/11 bombings, FOX News [10]
Research for yourself. Wikipedia articles only show one side of any story. Elfguy 16:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
On September 11, 2001 I remember watching on TV pictures taken in the middle east of people dancing and celebrating in the streets. I see no mention of those scenes in the "September 11, 2001 series of articles". Why? On some web forums I have heard these reports were false, but even if it is true that they were false it should be mentioned anyway since those pictures had a significant influence on the western public. Comments? Mieciu K 19:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a removed site from the 9/11 conspiracy theories site. I went ahead and WP:BB and added the site. This is the first page I have seen with such lame ass restrictions about posting sites. Travb ( talk) 01:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Great article. This is about as balanced as it can be without drifting over into the absurd by including every conspiracy theory and extreme bias known to man. To insist that there must be absolute, unassailable proof before printing anything about 9/11 is to expect the impossible. To insist that every POV be represented (from what I've read on this discussion board) for the article to be considered impartial is just plain crazy. The perpetrators' and their sympathizers' points of view simply are not valid. For example, I've yet to read a history book that says that Adolf Hitler allegedly was responsible for the Holocaust or that Germany allegedly invaded Poland in 1939. I don't recall seeing "equal time" being given to Nazi POVs on any matter. There's a good reason for this. Jlujan69 00:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
i think a terrorist attack infobox sghould be added to the article
This theory is CLEARLY NOTABLE as it has gotten major media attention. It completely debunks the "official" theory (who are you going to trust? Federal "career scientists" and so-called "professional structural engineers" or a neutral party like Oliver Stone?) and if it's not included in the article I may do something totally drastic and irrational. Cheers, JDoorj a m Talk 15:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I notice the death toll was again changed to the wrong one. Its not 2,976! Its 2,996 and this toll does not include the terrorists! Also, the real firgure is 2,948 confirmed dead, 24 reported dead and 24 reported missing, which comes to a toll of 2,996 victims. The particular website I used is cited by the White House and the IRS, which can be found on the home page of this website. The home page for this website is [12] and the web page were it states the correct death toll of the victims is [13].
The White House website cites the source on this link [14]. They have not updated this website, but the source is September 11 Victims, which is the particular website that I used for the firgure of 2,996 victims. Also, I don't think CNN is a good source at all, because the Tsunami death toll on their site is still 162,000, which is wrong.
Well that was 3 and 2 years ago. The particular website that I used to get the firgure of 2,996 is updated daily and it is correct. The correct death toll is 2,948 confirmed dead, 24 reported dead and 24 reported missing, which comes to a total of 2,996 victims [18]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.31.126 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 9 August 2006
I as well would like to clear up the confusion and determine the correct death toll. Also, it states on the homepage of this website that it was used as a source in the final 9/11 commission report [20].
Also, the 9/11 Commission Report reference to september11victims.com is among many different sources (also including CNN and others) they used. This was in reference to determining how many victims worked at or above the impact zone in the WTC, an investigation done by NIST. [21] Here's the footnote (#200, chapter 9) from the 9/11 Commission Report:
"For the estimate, see NIST report, "WTC Investigation Progress," June 22-23, 2004. For the updated death certificate information, see New York City report, "WTC Victim List," June 21, 2004. The analysis in this paragraph is based upon the following sources: CNN, "September 11: A Memorial," updated 2004 (online at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/index.html); company contacts, June 29, 2004 (online at http://worldtradeaftermath.com/wta/contacts/companies_list.asp?letter=1); CNN, WTC tenants, 2001 (online at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/tenants1.html); September 11 personal tributes, June 19, 2004 (online at http://www.legacy.com/LegacyTribute/Sept11.asp); September 11 personal profiles, Oct. 11, 2003 (online at http://www.september11victims.com/september11Victims); New York Times, Portraits: 9/11/01: The Collected "Portraits of Grief" (Times Books, 2002)."
And the 9/11 Commission itself never provided an official total figure. -- Aude ( talk contribs) 20:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Cool and if we can't firgure it out soon, its no big problem because on September 11 coming up this year many articles will give the final death toll so we can get it from them.
So did you determine if 2,976 or 2,996 is the correct number?
I do think that this video is well referenced. That is why others can write line by line debunks of the arguments this video makes (like [22]). If I want to check statements from the movie, all I need to do is google sources quoted, and read the rest of the referenced story. Although I do agree it should be in the 911 conspiracy article. Lakinekaki 18:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello there I just watch the movie "World Trade Center" and at the end it said 2,749 people were killed in the attack at the wtc. So therefore, I remember that they lowed it further from 2,752 to 2,749. So the new death toll when added up is 2,973 confirmed dead with 24 reported missing. All together its 2,997 victims and with the terrorists its 3,016 [23] [24].
Hello again I just updated the article with the correct death toll with 2,973 confirmed dead and with another 24 that remain listed as missing.
The death toll that CNN has at 2,973 is calculated like this. 2,749 died at the WTC. 125 died at the Pentagon. 59 died on flight 77. 40 died on flight 93. So, therefore the total dead comes to be 2,973 [25]. However, September 11 Victims is also a good source as well, because if you use their firgures it still adds up to 2,973. They have 2,948 listed as confirmed dead, but lets add one for flight 11 to make it 88 like CNN did. So the total confirmed dead will stand at 2,949 according to this site [26]. They also have another 24 people reported as dead [27]. Also, another 24 remain listed as missing [28]. So, the total according to September 11 Victims is 2,973 killed with another 24 that remain listed as missing to this day [29].
This is absolutely macabre. The point isn't determining exactly how many people died! This is exactly what Herbert called "the ferocious quibble over a comma."
Besides, with loss of life on this magnitude, exact casualty figures all but impossible. That's why the military uses the classification of "Missing."
In WW1, on the first day of the Somme offense (1 SEP 1916), 20,000 British soldiers were killed in 20 minutes. 20,000 were Missing. In fact, many of them were KIA. They were hit by German shells and their bodies completely disintegrated. Nothing was left to identify.
The idea of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (a British idea) came out of this reality. Such pettifogging exactitude marries horror with pedantry. Do you think they sit around at Yad Vashem trying to get the decimal points right?
Let us honor all the murdered, known and unknown.
PainMan 17:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I see what you mean, but this isn't a war its a terrorist attack in New York City so everyone that is confirmed and listed as missing are the victims of 9/11 and in total the death toll is 2,997 victims.
I'm afraid, Unsigned Person, that you miss the point. It was an act of war. Terrorism is what military analysts and historians call Asymmetrical Warfare. We used it against the British during the Revolution (let no one go brain dead and assume I'm labelling the Revolutionaries, for whom my great-great-great-great grandfather made guns, were terrorists). The Afghans against the Soviets. More pertinently, the tactics the IRA used against the British.
Never in history have acts of war been confined solely to sovereign states. The tens of thousands of terrorists we've killed, the 3 out of 4 Al-Qaeda leaders captured or killed, in the years since the attack certainly believed they were waging "holy" war against freedom, justice and religious toleration. The last, of course, being the thing they hate the most.
It's important for the government to ascertain the exact death toll for insurance companies, distrubting aid, distributions from the settlement fund, prevention of fraud (of which there has been a disgustingly large amount), etc. For history, however, it's not necessary. Whether it's 2997, 2998 or 3001 dead is irrelevent. It's like arguing over exactly how many Jews the Hitlerites killed during the Shoah--petty, pedantic and offensive.
PainMan 13:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't get your point. What are you trying to do? Make the death toll greater than it really is? Anyways, 9/11 might have been an "act of war", but it is still a terrorist attack. In the end, 3,016 people died in the attacks and 2,997 of them were victims. Also, when it comes to the attacks of 9/11 the exact numbers are known. So in this case it is important to get the numbers correct and I can state that we have.
Too many articles to check out. I found the comment do not reduce font sizes, the Wiki style sheets control presentation. That must be done manually by adding a DIV with the class references-small. Does anyone object this modification? It is custom to reduce the size of references when there are many. -- ReyBrujo 00:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Paranoid fictions and partisan, religious and racial hate have no place beside factual articles (implementation of this by the Drive By media would mean its self-immolation; hardly a bad thing). By writing only the facts, the conspiracy nutburgers are automatically refuted.
After all, the famous Czarist secret police forgery The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion does not warrant being displayed in full next to an article on Anti-Semitism.
This is even more relevant since many of the conspiracies "theories" revolve around the Mossad's having perpetrated the terror attacks ("Hey, guys! Let's attack our best ally, biggest financial supporter and main supplier of weapons and all to make terrorists look bad!"). E.g., "All of the Jews stayed home from work" or "All of the Jews were secretly warned (how? conference call? Mass email?) to stay away from the WTC on 9/11."
Listing such garbage on an equal footing with the facts only dignifies it.
PainMan 16:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Garbage? This entire page is Garbage. Tha FACTS do not support the 9/11 Commisions "findings" they never have. Loose Chnage is as close to tha facts as anyone will EVER get. The "findings" of the 9/11 Commission have been continually and successfully disputed. People like you who continue to blind themslevs to the truth so that you can shirk your REAL patriotic responsibilities make it easier for those really resposnible to perpetuate a lie. This article is not Neutral.-- 68.186.142.187 21:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Uh, the dude without the courage to sign his-/herself before attacking me should bother to actually read comments before attacking them. You might save yourself some embarassment. I made no comment on the 9/11 Commission Report whatsoever. In fact, I agree that 9/11 Commission was a joke. For example, it makes no mention of the proven involvement of Saddam Hussein in the preparation for the attacks.
PainMan 13:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I cannot agree with any of theories I read during these years about the date chosen by al-Qaeda. As European I think this is due to the youth of the U.S.A. and its lack of history.
At first we must ask ourselves what Islam says, why al-Qaeda was born, what al-Qaeda wants and who are the Heads.
The main principle of the Muslim Religion is in few words: " Allah is one and Mohammed is his Profhet".
The main figure in the Islam is the Caliph. The first Caliph was Adam.
The Islam overruns the conception of Indipendent States, such as Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Egypt, Lybanon, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan and Turkey.
al-Qaeda as radical fundamentalist Islamic group, whose name means "the base" in English", has the main purpose to establish the pure application of the Muslim Religion just under one Guide, the Caliph, and to restore the Caliphate over the whole Islamic World.
Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are founders and senior members of al-Qaeda's shura council, and come from prominent high class families.
"We are in a new phase of a very old war" says - at the beginning of an Islamic website - the title of a townscape painted by Italian painter Bernardo Bellotto (Venice 1721-1780 Warsaw), called Canaletto, between 1759/1761 in Vienna in a series of 13 prospects and reproducing the exact topographical urban panorama from the Belvedere (palace) .
This perspective construction unfolds between the gardens of both the Schwarzenberg Palace and the Belvedere itself in the foreground to a row of stately Baroque palaces and churches in the middle focal plane of the painting. These buildings are evidence of the active construction "boom" in Vienna after the second Turkish siege in 1683.
But why the Belvedere (palace)?
The Belvedere (palace) is a baroque complex built by Prince Eugene of Savoy in the 3rd district of Vienna, south-east of the city center.
After buying the plot of land in 1697, Prince Eugene had a large park created. The Schloss Belvedere began as a suburban entertainment villa: in 1714 work began to erect what is now called the Lower Belvedere, not as a palace but as a garden villa, with an orangerie and paintings gallery, with suitable living quarters. The architect was Johann Lukas von Hildebrandt, one of the most important architects of the Austrian Baroque, who produced in the complex of buildings his masterwork.
And who was Prince Eugene of Savoy?
Prince Eugene of Savoy was one of the most brilliant generals in the history of the Habsburg Empire and took part in the first large-scale battle of the Habsburg-Ottoman Wars, the Battle of Vienna in 1683.
The Battle of Vienna took place on September 11, 1683.
After a mass in a Chapel in Kahlenberg at the gates of Vienna on September 11, 1683, in the morning, Jan III Sobieski King of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and commander in Chief of the Christian Army of Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor, moved against the Muslim Armies of the Sultan Mehmed IV, commanded by Grand Vizier Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Pasha, and defeated. The battle finished on September 12, 1683, about at 17 p.m.
The battle marked the turning point in the 300-year struggle between the forces of the Central European kingdoms, and the Ottoman Empire. Over the sixteen years following the battle, the Habsburgs of Austria, and their allies gradually occupied and dominated southern Hungary and Transylvania, which had been largely cleared by the Turkish forces.
The date of September 11, 2001 attacks chosen by al-Qaeda could mean the beginning and the revenge of a "very old War" against the Infidels.
If all this was known why didn't anyone warn us about the date September 11th?
Hi,
I'm trying to find responses to 9/11 not from the media or politicians but from historians, political scientists, philsophers, sociologists etc. It seems to be an area that would be useful to include in the article. Does someone know of any such responses?
--Lucaas
lol. I think your a bit of head of yourself. I think your answer lies in the 26th Century.
Everyone, from the Queen of England to the hounds of hell, knows truth behind 9/11. So in the name of decency and understanding of darkness that it involved in this whole monstrosity remove any mention of responsibilities and/or motives from article. These are false facts, and they simply cannot stand in encyclopedia. It is proven beyond reasonable doubt that each & every cause for war in Iraq is false. Please, act immediately! This page will be one of the focal points in times of anniversary, and Wikipedia must not stand as a lie. I sincerely hope that you all understand that this is not a question of debate; it is question of humanity and liberty… Act with haste, & God speed…
Yes baby, we are going mainstream! -- Striver 03:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
This mother wants you to not mention her daughter in this context. Are we legaly bound to respect that? -- Striver 01:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No were not and we will not. I bet if her daughter was alive today she would smack her mother out for saying that!
Why is this in the article lol:
"The attacks were widely referred to as terrorism in most of the world, by the majority of people, no matter their race, nationality or faith."
"The attacks were widely referred to as terrorism in most of the world, by the majority of people, no matter their race, nationality or faith.". Who's Line is it anyway? -- Haham hanuka 08:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that these attacks should be considered terrorosm. After all, 214,000+ people died when Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened, but the U.S. Government still denies the fact that it was terrorism, while dwelling on 9/11 airplane bombings, where less than 3,000 people died.
OK, I know that this WAS terrorism, but it doesn't compare to things like the Armenian Genocide, where 1.5 million people were brutally, sadistically killed (like setting women's hair on fire, and making their children clap & laugh), while others were tortured, and forced to walk through the desert, so hugry, that they ate droppings of camels. The worst part is that USA helps cover this up, and even fired a U.S. Ambassador for reffering to the genocide as a 'genocide'.
There have been many other tragedies - like the Indian Ocean Earthquake, which added to 275,000+ deaths, and 229,866 lost people - in non-U.S. countries, but they just don't pay too much attention.
Americans are self-centered, and (they will deny this) they don't care about deaths in any other country, because, sub-conciously or conciously, they beleive they are superior, becuase the media tells them that, and they think that because they are rich, they themselves are worth more.
"Why is this 9/11 series so incredibly huge?? It rivals WW2 articles in size. And is far larger than descriptions of many wars lasting many years and claiming incredible human victims (like Rwandan_Genocide, Darfur_conflict, Srebrenica_massacre, Algerian Civil War, Second Congo War, to name a few) Wouldnt one, or two, or three articles be quite enough for describing a single event?" --Aryah 03:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You are a very smart person! Someone who understands what I'm talking about!
Anyway, yeah, it's bad that those people died, but here's the secret: BUSH, THE U.S. GOV'T, CIA, ETC. ALL KNEW THIS WAS GONNA HAPPEN!....But they don't want YOU to know.
Enough of all that subliminal fodder don't hide it like some villains… say it straight! Truth with PEACE & LOVE!
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2006/08/21/254.html So It would be nice to see it here… Do you know that FBI actually confirmed (better word, admitted) that Osama didn’t have anything, nothing, nada… to do with 911 (google it)? Just check the news… and correct those errors… that is to whoever is in charge there?
Michael Moore? Squiggyfm 21:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting close to link spam. We don't care what links say, if you want to add something then add it. But stop spamming the talk page with stuff people aren't responding to. -- Golbez 03:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps they are shocked:)… Apologies, as an old user I should have known better… just a bit exited, can't blame… but I like that court link the most… it will be available tomorrow… nations wide… I won't add anything to the article, however I would remove those "questionable" lyrics, and stick to the facts… whatever, it's done, take care…
Whoever put the tag on top of the page about not discussing conspiracys or gvt inepitude, thank you. We don't need any crap like that in a factual article.
But ignore me. Back to the discussion. 69.148.78.247 04:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
What's there to discuss… it's on CNN as we speak… front page… you can hardly miss it… factual article? LOL…
If the discussion is innapropriate, than say so, if a block is in order, than block. This is supposed to be an article about the Sept 11 attacks, and this is a discussion page. Wikipedia does not censor.(no discussion of government ineptitude even?) Please do not replace that tag. It will be removed. SkeenaR 05:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
and this http://www.courttv.com/home_primetime/index.html? This is just prime time… —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovelight ( talk • contribs)
Yeah look, block him then, or if you can't do it than call in an admin. It's been done before, and obviously a tag like that doesn't help with the hard cases, does it? We don't need to scare people off from discussing the things involved in the events that may or may not be included in the article with such a warning. SkeenaR 06:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It's completely innapropriate. Many new users would be afraid to post anything for fear of being bitten, and the Naziesque implication that mention of ineptitude on the part of the government won't be tolerated isn't so cool either, is it?
SkeenaR 06:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, why don't you warn him and then carry on from there? The boilerplate won't fix this problem, but an admin can sure make a difference in these situations. that's why you have those buttons. SkeenaR 06:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC).
Thanks. I think that boilerplate was a real blight on the page and that no one would want this place to reflect that kind of attitude. No offense PCH, we all get pissed off. SkeenaR 07:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the one who initially posted here. I probably didn't make it clear, but my meaning was that there should be a section on theories and conspiracies regarding the attacks, as currently, this article does not show any other ideas shared by people who do not believe the "official" report. Honestly, it's difficult to decide what to put on an article without discussing the article itself. Sort of like trying to make a guide book for computer software without knowing what the software does. You've just closed off any chance of extending and improving the article, which is the whole point of this website isn't it? I admit my first post was a bit vague on what was intended, but it doesn't help if you don't give me a chance to edit it and refine it to the quality you oh so desperately desire. 213.120.158.229 08:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There are ways to add information and improve the article without creating a zoo-like atmosphere. Find the correct spaces in the article to add appropriate verifiable info. SkeenaR 23:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Is up for review at [30]. Thought all of you would want to know. Morton devonshire 21:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For a credible academic source, see the works of the eminent Professor Noam Chomsky over the last decade.
I must also add that i have viewed this discussion and i have come to the conclusion that the article and this discussion are, as one contributor has pointed out, heavily influenced by U.S. opinion and not by verifiale facts. Unfortunately, I have also come to the conclusion that it is useless attempting to rectify this article as it will bounce off minds that are incapable of processing critical ideas. However, it would be unfair to pejoratise individuals who are utterley and hopelessly repressed by the illusion created by the very anti-thesis of that which they believe they stand for. It is often true that the slave protects the interests of his master over his own freedom.
The events of that day were despicable and cannot be condoned by anyone, but this should add impetus to the drive for a free and true representation of facts that have been both scientifically and critically assessed.
I ask only that you read, think and criticise ALWAYS. Look to your own integrity and not a websites guidelines - rules are created by men and women just like you.
TDM-UK August 2006
http://www2.nea.org/he/heta05/images/2005pg119.pdf#search=%22911%20academics%22 Lovelight 14:21 CET
Thank you, Levi, for the compliment. I apologise for any excessive rhetoric; i obviously spend far too much time with politicians.
I do indeed have numerous additions and subtractions that i hope will improve and neutralise this article. However, in order to present a case that is academically sound i am in the process of systematically analysing the language in the article according to two established methods within contemporary Linguistics. For now, I will state those two methods so that readers can assess their validity. The first is Stylistics, also known as Critical Linguistics, and the second is Critical Discourse Analysis as pioneered by Professor Norman Fairclough.
I hope that you will understand that this exercise will take a considerable amount of time and that you will be patient until i can present the results.
I want only a neutral and objective account that satisfies not only the U.S. public, but also, the rest of the global community.
In the words of one of your senators - "I'll be back!"
TDM-UK 14:22, 26th August 2006.
As for this Chomsky "is not credible" statement, well i'm afraid that the media isn't credible either and certainly not frontpagemag.com. Oh dear!
I'd like to get a consensus on the addition of two links that I think are very important (I did not see either under "External links". One is Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline, which is very heavily detailed, and was turned into a book. Another is 911Timeline.net, a similar project. Are both biased? In some ways, yes. But the information contained on both sites make both links highly essential for anyone wishing to do more research on the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks.-- Fightingirish 18:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It's official: no evidence for bin laden being involved: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/280806binladen.htm] -- Striver 01:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
PS Let me remind you that few days ago video came out on CNN where Bush clearly stated that there is no relation whatsoever between 911 and war in Iraq. Abiding to these volatile times, that stream was available for very limited time, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. It is the nature of information on Internet to multiply when repressed so here is the truth, plain & simple: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/40631/ -- Lovelight 6:28 AM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
Get back on track here. We're talking about Bin Laden and 9/11, not Bin Laden and Saddam. Spread your FUD elsewhere. -- Mmx1 04:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
As I said, nothing but lies there… One can easily dismiss every single one. Well, in a few days perhaps (or visit my page, beware of vandals though)… In mean time I would like to show you a riddle... Say, you know Christiane Amanpour, watch how this name get's new symbolism, as we slightly dissect it with logos. Christ+Aman+pour=lies. Now, I see that you are a hunter, so I'll just take it for granted that you know what Aman is? As far as associated press goes, the name itself implicates some form of connection. I always point to discussion here: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/3094... with such things in mind I honestly cannot consider FOX to be reliable source. Firstly, there's obvious danger of rabies, second, it is nature of the fox to be cunning… and as I see & hear people trust that source in same manner they trust prison planet… Whether you find these thoughts interesting or not, fact remains that all those references are refuted for a long time now (haven't really checked, but I would bet there are some related references in that unofficial part of the story, you know conspiracy?), there are voices calling for independent investigation and article should reflect that… that’s all. Keep in mind that official story is the poorest and dimmest of them all… whether administration simply failed to prevent attack or actually inflicted that "plastic knife wound", they are not to be trusted. As a military man I think that you'll enjoy this: http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01, you'll also feel some rage… I promise:)… -- Lovelight 7:44 AM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
Oh, but please, do understand that I coupe with my feelings every day, I do tend to be overwhelmed by unnecessary death, pain and suffering… honestly!
You see, I know that you won't approve, I see this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1963391; to be deeply related… -- Lovelight 8:07 AM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
It is interesting to note that the flight numbers follow a pattern. Starting with number 11 (flight AA 11), adding the digits of individual flights, it goes with 13 (flight UA 175), 14 (flight AA 77) and 12 (flight UA 93), where flight UA 93 is out of sequence that got delayed by 40 minutes at Newark airport. Otherwise, it would have hit after flight 11. Clearly, the master mind team has a taste of mathematics and they are at large.
Why don’t the terrorists count as deaths? Of course their death (as opposed to all others) was intentional, but after all, they are also human beings. 92.104.107.212 ( talk) 06:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
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Is it necessary to have two photos of him included? KyuuA4 04:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
A thought just occurred to me. Do the fatality figures for the planes given on this page include the hijackers? 'cos I'm not sure if they should. Either way we should make it clear whether or not they do. Kingal86 23:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11, 2001, attacks. Commas in dates, geographical locations, &c., function as marks of parenthesis. The parenthesis has be closed by a second mark. Think of it like "September 11 (2001) attacks" and the "Arlington (Virginia) Pentagon". We don't leave off ")"—so we don't leave off the comma. Just as we write "Arlington, Virginia, U.S.A., is the location of the Pentagon" and "Tuesday, September 11, 2001, was an important day", we also do this when the multi-word term functions attributively. Associated Press example from late March 2005: "Four suspected Islamist radicals went on trial in Paris on charges that they provided false documents to two Tunisians who posed as journalists and killed the celebrated Afghan resistance hero Ahmed Shah Massoud two days before the September 11, 2001, attacks in the United States." — President Lethe 21:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A change to September 11 attacks would remove this figment; is it not done because of some ambiguity? Septentrionalis 15:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that this is not supported, and I agree with the arguments. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 13:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
What "arguments"? I see arguments here in favor of punctuating correctly (i.e., with commas setting off the year, a parenthetical element), but I haven't seen any "arguments" in favor of sticking one comma in the middle of the sentence for no reason. There are a few general refusals to change, but saying "no, you're wrong" is not an "argument." Find one authoritative source that supports using one comma in this way, and I'll give it up. 65.107.70.253 16:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
See also The 9/11 Commission Report, Preface at xv: "September 11, 2001, was a day of unprecedented shock and suffering in the history of the United States." Anyone have any reputable counter-examples? 65.107.70.253 16:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
See also the New York Times, June 24, 2006, A3: "majorities in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan and Turkey . . . said, for example, that they did not believe that Arabs had carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States"; New York Times, June 19, 2006, A11: "The United States said a small cell of Al Qaeda, made up of foreigners, had set up shop in Mogadishu after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and were being protected by court leaders"; New York Times, April 30, 2006, 44: "Mr. Deutch also began to require special approval for the use of unsavory characters as agency informants -- a policy suspended after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when officers argued that only terrorists would know of plans for the next attack." I can provide thousands of other examples from authoritative sources. Anyone have any persuasive authorities in favor of using only one comma? I couldn't find any. 65.107.70.253 15:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Read about the mainstream coverage:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CDCC04E2-8DE8-4625-B380-DD74EC0F3AC9.htm
Its a disgrace for wikipedia that the Charlie Sheen and Alex Jones interviews are deleted as non-notable when aljazeera stats:
We've got a lot of pictures on this page. Does anybody object to the removal of that one? I know it has meaning and stuff, but it seems excessive for it to be on the page. It's like a shock photo. Graphic and disturbing. I think we should just link to it's page. SkeenaR 04:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored. See Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse for examples. -- Mmx1 04:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok. I don't feel that strongly that it should be removed. But, just so you know what I mean, in the case of the torture photos I think the graphic imagery is more pertinent to the article. The imagery is the proof, and the imagery is what caused the controversy. I think this is different. I don't think anyone would argue that we need severed limbs or entrails in this article either. SkeenaR 04:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. SkeenaR 20:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Here guys, another one you can insult: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/280606latestcelebrity.htm]-- Striver 14:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
There is an obvious mathematical error under the first subheading ("The attacks"). The fatality total is listed as 2986, made up of the sums of 265, 2595, and 125. The problem is pretty clear: 265 + 2595 + 125 = 2985, not 2986.
I attempted to fix this error by adding one to the plane total (I based the 266 number on the fatality table in the "fatalities" section of the entry), but another editor erased my correction and changed the "fatalities" section to reflect a 265 number. I do not dispute this change, as it was cited and appears to be correct. However, because the 2986 number was likely based on the faulty flight fatalities, I am going to revise the total casualty number down by one.
I have not provided a source for the 2985 number because, frankly, sources conflict. I have begun to look for a reliable source for fatality numbers, and if I find a good one I will revise all the numbers to reflect it. However, given that we have conflicting sources, I think it makes sense to make the Wiki entry internally consistent. Right now there is a blatant mathematical error on the page, which is a major problem. If anyone does not like my revision, please feel free to fix it--but re-creating an obvious math error on a major wiki page by reverting to the old version is NOT a "fix." We should not have a total that is different from the sum of its supposed parts.
Guys, look what Alex linked to: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/010706casestudy.htm]. Lately, Alex have leand more and more to including material that supports that the pentagon was hit by a plane. I find the arguements compelling. I have never been to sure regarding either version, and i still have unanswered questions regarding Pentagon, but if asked, i now support that it was hit by a plance. -- Striver 13:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The video doesn't show a Boeing 757. This picture also doesn't show damage that would be caused by a Boeing 757. It's worth noting that some windows are not broken. Engineers at Purdue produced a simulation of the theory behind the Pentagon attacks.
I want to add...
http://www.911.colleenmcgarry.com
Can I get permission?
I want to add...
http://www.socialistworker.org/Featured/WarOnTerror.shtml#Sept11
Can I get permission?
I think wikipedia should try and remain unbiased, even if such emotionally disturbing topics are involved. Widely disputed facts should not be presented as "the truth" without reservation. Please someone tell me what happend to bin Laden. Is this what kidney-dialasis will do to your face? |
Morton/Matt, I've moved your comment here, as you inserted it in the middle of my comment. Now my reaction: mainstream reports are citing the government view, without much of a dispute. So far I agree. This makes the media sources verifiable, but not necessarily trustworthy. About the propagandists: you are entitled to your view about this. The LA conference end of June however made headlines in the major newspapers here in Holland, I think mainly because of the size of the conference (1200 participants). It is not just a few internet freaks and paranoid people, but it also includes former ministers Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow so I maintain my view that the dispute is not only strong, but also wide. And this means that wikipedia must be very careful in presenting the facts, and not beliefs as if they were facts. The mainstream view is a belief as much as the "propagandists'" view. That's my opinion. — Xiutwel (talk) 17:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
# (cur) (last) 15:01, 4 July 2006 Tom harrison (Talk | contribs) (rm conspiracy theory; rm promotional link) # (cur) (last) 14:51, 4 July 2006 Xiutwel (Talk | contribs) (→Responsibility - see bin Laden article)
I've re-inserted the fact that the FBI does not accuse bin Laden of 911-involvement. Personally, I presume this can only be so if they too believe the confession-video could be a fake. They would have enough evidence, if he confessed, wouldn't they?
I am not, for the moment, reinserting doubts on the confession video's. Let's leave that for a later stage.
Thanks, — Xiutwel (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
As to responsibility and documentation, here is an image from and video of the Osama bin Laden confession tape that was found in Jalalabad.
It's actually quite depressing that Wikipedia is still not able to present a decent, unbiased, article about 9-11. The bias pervades the whole article, Dick Cheney might have written it himself! It's very proper that this article was taken out of the category of featured articles. Sacca 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I wonder is there not any template that can be applied to this article? Widely disputed article for example? Just so that the people who read it are aware? Sacca 11:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
There are such tags, and would be properly used here.{{neutrality}} Actually, it's time the tag went up for sure, because the neutrality is heavily disputed as one can see from reading this talk page. But I'm willing to bet if the tag was placed at the top of the article, it would be removed without explanation. SkeenaR 15:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sacca,
[[Image:Example.jpg]]
I think it is clear to everyone involved that this page is highly disputed. That said, I would prefer if we can avoid resorting to adding Disputed Tags to the article - at least until we try harder to gain consensus over how NPOV and Verifiability apply in this case. As a specific example of a disputed fact is the continued exclusion of all reference to mainstream media accounts of Molten Metal sightings at Ground Zero on and after the attacks. For more detail on the Molten Metal discussion, see [ [1]] For mainstream source material, see: [ [2]]
This is a clear example of a Disputed Fact. It is well documented by multiple credible mainstream sources, but has been excluded from Wikipedia because it may not fit the official account of events. It is clearly a violation of NPOV to exclude this notable and verifiable fact: "Molten Metal was observed at the site of Ground Zero for days and weeks after the attacks.
Whether or not you agree that reference to Molten Metal should be included in the article. Does anyone wish to argue the fact that it isn't even disputed? Digiterata 22:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting that nobody bothers to show any evidence for who the hijackers actualy were. It's even more interesting when you consider that the FBI admited that the hijackers were using assumed names and fake IDs. In fact, the 19 names of suspected hijackers released by the FBI don't even appear on the passenger lists of the hijacked planes. So, who were they, really? If Wikipedia is going to say that these men were "Affiliated with Al-Quieda" then it damm well better back that up with some evidence. So far, all I see in this regard is a lot of alegations and not much evidence. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers_flt_175.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/U175pass.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.victims.html
-- Allthenamesarealreadytaken 04:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories are against the wikipedia policy and it is considered a form of vandalism. DO not post them here. -- Allthenamesarealreadytaken 04:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
To keep the lead section concise, I have removed the following:
I don't think it's necessary to add what was in parentheses. For example, simply saying the Pentagon is much more concise way of saying "headquarters of the US military". The part about "crime against humanity" is also too detailed for the intro section (and should be cited). - Aude ( talk contribs) 23:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not original research but common knowledge. Is there a dispute regarding The term " Let's roll" would later become the war cry for those fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan? patsw 18:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
We now have an infobox... on terrorist attacks? Oy vey. Is this *really* needed? -- Golbez 07:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree they are so ugly and plus the official death toll is 2,986 not 2,976!! Litte Spike 2:37am EST, July 15th, 2006
'Terrorism' is a highly subjective term, and I do not think it has a place in a NPOV article unless it is in a quote attributed to a specific person. Therefore, could the presumed attackers be described as 'Islamic militants' instead?
I realise this is an emotional subject for many of you, but that is no reason to throw away objectivity. Damburger 15:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
You might want to examine the discussion archives where this has come up quite often. The editing consensus for this page before the issuance of the report of
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States was that attacks were terrorist in nature and the perpetrators terrorists and since that report was issued it confirmed the judgement of the editors here. The specific objection you raise terrorism is a highly subjective term was thoroughly argued in the past. If you don't bring anything new to the discussion, it will remain as it is.
patsw 18:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
By any definition it would seem that hijacking a commercial airliner is prima facie evidence of terrorism. Levi P. 18:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Terrorist/terrorism is not a "POV term" when it is used in a factual, non-propagandistic way (i.e. not as an insult). Actually, trying to force the use of vague language and euphemism is a form of POV-pushing. Mirror Vax 06:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Damburger, Carriles is said to be involved in "numerous violent terrorist plots" in the first sentence of the article. That the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is considered by some to be terrorism is included in the article about the bombings. There are official definitions of "terrorism" and of "terrorist". 9/11 and those involved fit the respective definitions. JDoorj a m Talk 07:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Given that people have stopped answering, and I've blown the mentioned objections completely out of the water, can I take that to mean people don't mind the change? Damburger 09:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that some individuals destroyed this site!! The death toll is stated at 3,000, than 2,985, and than 2,976 all in the same article!! Whats up with this Wikipedia? This article is one of the most important ones on Wikipedia at this time and its filled with mis information and in reality the actual official death toll is 2,986!! - Litte Spike 3:46pm EST, July 15th, 2006
the death toll on the article does not seem to reflect the downward revision that occured in October of 2003, [5] so I'm going to change it in the article. Mike McGregor (Can) 04:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
WHERE IS THE NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW FOR THIS PAGE!!
I try to put in the qualifiers and I get a message that says that I'm a vandal.
This page is simply an extension of the mainstream media propaganda.
9/11 was an inside job.
You don't have to say it was but you can't have a fair encyclopedia entry on 9/11 if you don't state both viewpoints SIDE BY SIDE.
Further down the article does have some qualifiers. Good to see!
But they must be througout the article.
This is an example of showing both viewpoints: Some passengers and crew members were able to make phone calls from the hijacked flights, though this is disputed as analysis of the voice indicate no panic, and the people couldn’t answer simple, straight questions. They reported that multiple hijackers were aboard each plane. A total of 19 were later identified by the FBI, four on United 93 and five each on the other three flights. Though conspiracy theorists point out that the Arlington county coroner said, “To this day I have not seen one drop of blood, not one.”124.168.86.15, 09:40, July 18, 2006
There already is a page for this. OH MY GOD LOOK WHAT WE HAVE HERE! Did you not ready the numerous debates about this already? Squiggyfm 17:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
NPOV does not mean putting reality and fantasy on an equal footing. Peter Grey 19:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Please explain Peter, that was sorta ambiguous. Squiggyfm 20:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is this 9/11 series so incredibly huge?? It rivals WW2 articles in size. And is far larger than descriptions of many wars lasting many years and claiming incredible human victims (like Rwandan_Genocide, Darfur_conflict, Srebrenica_massacre, Algerian Civil War, Second Congo War, to name a few) Wouldnt one, or two, or three articles be quite enough for describing a single event? -- Aryah 03:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you people serious? An inside job? You throw out these theories without a single shred of credible proof. "The passengers on the plane didn't sound distressed"....what? How is that proof in any way? But hey, at least the Arlington coroner didn't see any blood...still more concrete proof of a conspiracy. What's next? Elvis planned the whole thing? All of the conspiracy theorists that post on this board need to lay off the crystal meth and see if that helps the paranoia issues at all.
(from above)
( Personal attack removed)-- ThaThinker 04:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
If what I wrote is a personal attack instead of the truth, let him allow some items that 9/11 skeptics would wish that are up to acceptable standards. The Abel Danger program is a matter of Congressional record, and Sibel Edmonds has been the subject of numerous news reports and a lengthy piece in Vanity Fair. She says she read documents describing the funding of 9/11, but she and the Congress have been gagged, and no grand jury or other Congressional inquiry has seen that any wrongdoers are brought to justice on account of her testimony. These topics are not allowed on this page, but we are not citing blogs. These allegations are as yet unproven, but so are doubts about the JFK assasination, or claims that an intellegent being called [God] created the Universe; but these two unproven ideas appear on their respective Wikipedia pages. Although they have not been confrimed, their articles include their claims as told from a neutral point of view. From a scientific point of view, allegations concerning 9/11 indeed verifiable and falsifiable. There are no grounds to exclude these topics, but although Wikipedia rules say minority opinions should be included in an article (especially a main one, IMHO), they are not. I don't think a few sentences to acknowledge the existence of a minority opinion is what those who drafted the rules on minority views had in mind.
I have not belittled Morton's intelligence, nor attacked him in any other way, except to say that when he claims he will allow qualified items, experience has shown that what he says is not the case. -- ThaThinker 15:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, now I'm being censored for asking for a Wikipedia editor to live up to his statment. (Comments restored -- JDoorj a m Talk 22:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC))
One of the many things that was removed, that was not a personal attack, was that my remarks are directed toward fixing THIS article. Again, if we are to have an article 911 Conspiracy Theories, the official account belongs there too. To put only 911 skeptical information there is POV. THIS article is still badly POV. Also removed were some comments direected toward fixing this article, which were also not personal attacks.
Anybody notice the recent New Yorker story about how the CIA withheld information from an FBI agent Al-Queada before 9/11?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/v-pfriendly/story/432036p-364067c.html
In Research in Political Economy", vol. 23, the writer of this serious academic series also find serious questions about 9/11:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PZarembka/volume23.htm
My request that Morton live up to his statement "If you were citing sources which satisfy Wikipedia standards of verifiability and reputable sources, then nobody would be reverting you."
Among some of the things that were removed were a request that the case of Abel Danger, which is part of the Congressional record, be included, and Sibel Edmonds' case, which has been the subject of many news stories, including Vanity Fair, and who's credentials had been verified in a secret session of congress, be included. Also removed, were a list of four administrators who were blocking this sort of information that meets Wikipedia guidelines( Personal attack removed). His personal page also admits his non-neutral point of view that 9/11 skeptics are nuts. Fine, but that's an opinion, not NPOV. -- ThaThinker 22:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no intention of getting into a personal dispute with you T. If we're going to debate, let's debate about whether an edit adheres or doesn't adhere to Wikipedia policy -- that's our yardstick around here for new edits. Having said that, if you want to include stuff that falls on the grey side of Wiki policy, add it to the 9/11 conspiracy theories page, as we're consciously looser over there. Morton Devonshire Yo
Should there be additional information in the section "Long-term effects", after the statement about the FAA grounding, about the lack of air traffic and contrails causing detectable climate changes in the U.S. For example, Wired News has an article on it, and more sources could easily be found. -- Cipherswarm 16:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As per the discussion about the term "terrorism" above which seemed to conclude with nobody objecting to it being a POV statement, I changed the article.
However, people are blindly reverting this without refering to the talk page. If I keep reverting it back to what was discussed here I'll be blocked under the 3RR. The people reverting it won't because there are large numbers of them.
What is the point of having a talk page if opinionated morons can overwhelm the article with pro-American POV insertions? Damburger 14:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: Mmx1 has just reverted the changes I made once again, WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THEM HERE. I discussed my edit at great length for DAYS before I made it, yet there are people reverting them without any discussion here at all.
I'd also like to point out, that just because one POV is very popular amongst the US media, it does not qualify as a fact. It is STILL JUST A POV
Damburger 14:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I made all the comments I needed in the edit summary. -- Mmx1 14:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and I tore your 'reasoning' apart here. What you are invoking is an Appeal to popularity fallacy. Of course, becaues of the 3RR I can't revert your POV, but that doesn't make you right. Damburger 14:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The article must separate the facts from interpretations, and must not blindly treat "official" interpretation as true.
Just one example:
Compare with: Organizers of the September 11, 2001 attacks: At least eight of the names on the FBI's list have been called into doubt.
And with al-Qaeda: According to the controversial BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares, al-Qaeda is so weakly linked together that it is hard to say it exists apart from Osama bin Laden and a small clique of close associates. The lack of any significant numbers of convicted al-Qaeda members despite a large number of arrests on terrorism charges is cited by the documentary as a reason to doubt whether a widespread entity that meets the description of al-Qaeda exists at all. The extent and nature of al-Qaeda remains a topic of dispute.
So it isn't all that clear whether there really were exactly 19 people, who were they, and whether they were really "affiliated with al-Qaeda" in literal sense. There are many more cases where the article blindly accepts the "official" version. We cannot do that, as it threatens neutrality and quality of Wikipedia. Taw 14:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
"Not just Americans use the term "terrorism" in reference to 9/11. So does Kofi Annan of the United Nations, as do the news media in the U.K., France, Germany, China, Canada, and the list could go on... There is wide agreement among countless reliable sources that 9/11 was an act of terrorism.
Obviously, numbers once again win out over logic and intelligence here thanks to the 3RR. This is one of the biggest weaknesses of wikipedia. Damburger 07:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe there is even a discussion right now over whether or not September 11 was a terrorist attack. I hope to God you guys don't write history books. NOTHING will ever get done. Stanselmdoc 13:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
It crops up from time to time. I don't know why. -- Mr. Billion 17:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
At the very least, Damburger, wouldn't you agree that the sources cited above (Xinhua etc al.) address your concern of a "mainstream western media"-centric viewpoint? Also, what was the attack if not terrorism? Can't we reasonably conclude that Al-Queda (or whichever composite group the hijackers belonged to) pursues an agenda of "violence [...] to generate fear, cause disruption, and ultimately to bring about compliance w/ specific political, religious, [and] ideological goals," per Wikipedia's own definition of terrorism?
I guess we can discuss the second point, but I don't see know you can continue to maintain a position that only the "western media" refers to the attacks as terrorist. Icewolf34 17:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
From Merriam-Webster terrorism Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m Function: noun the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
I borrowed that from the top of the talk page. Anyway, by definition, 9/11 was a terrorist attack. Did the militants (to avoid pissing certain people off) use terror? Yes. Did they use it as a means of coercion, or at least attempted coetcion? Yes. Therefore, it was an act of terrorism.
You talk about pro-American editors ramming a POV down your throat and in the article, saying they have no argument. I've yet to see any validated argument from you. Your also ramming your POV into the article when you keep trying to revert it.
Damburger 09:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
We can't refute your arguments? Look at this entire section and tell me that with a straight face. Your "argument" has been refuted pretty much every time you open your mouth about it.
Honestly, I'm suprised this page hasn't been locked to editing... Someguy-021 05:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)Someguy-021
Despite being threatened, blocked inappropriately, and having my cogent arguments plainly ignored by people hell bent of enforcing an American POV, I am not going to give this up. The fact remains, no matter how many news sources you cite, or dictionary definitions you come up with (which, by the way, don't imply NPOV. "Wanker" has a definition in the OED) 'terrorist' is still a POV term. Wikipedia states this elsewhere, why can't it be consistent with itself here? What you Americans never seem to get is that many opinions which are popular in the US are fringe opinions worldwide - after all, the US only represents about 5% of the population. Talk about undue weight. Damburger 15:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that it was a terrorist attack is hard to dispute. Even for those who might believe that the gov't was complicit in the attacks, does not negate the fact that the attack falls under the definition of terrorist...it would just mean that the gov't factions supposedly involved were the terrorist in question.
Now whether Al-Quaida were the terrorists who committed the attack, now that is questionable, especially when 5-7 of the suspected are still alive. I can find the sources for this if they have not previously been posted. Mablespam 06:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
That if there continue to be problems regarding discussion of 911, rather than discussion of the article, that interested parties do so at our discussion site, abovetopsecret.com, or more specifically our 911 Forum. I only mention this in hopes of helping the wikipedia to avoid unwanted discussions. We also have a wikipedia ( the Tinwiki) that is perhaps more appropriate for some of the controversial aspects of these topics Nygdan 04:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
facts and POV, amke make a clear distinction, too.
We all know that the majority of people do not read the whole article, but rather they focus on the first lines to see what's all about, so let's concentrate on the first paragraphs, even though the rest of the article is still of major importance.
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist attacks upon the United States, predominantly targeting civilians, carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001.
This may be considered right, especially when the word "terrorist" may identify a variety of people, even governments if necessary.
That morning, 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda [1] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Each team of hijackers included a trained pilot.
There is no actual evidence to support this claim. The official story has been under investigation by a numerous amount of indipendent journalists, writers and individuals. If Wikipedia is really open as it should, it has to include something like:
According to the 9/11 Commission Report [...], yet many doubts about the facts presented are still unanswered (link to conspiracy theories/truth behind or list of plausible explanations)
Just to be fair and square, you know. Federico Pistono ✆ ✍ 14:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This might be tangental, but the problem with this logic is that it can be argued that WMD were found in Iraq, since FOX news ( a so-called reputable news source) has stated as fact that WMD were found in Iraq. Furthermore, when independent media points out the fallacy in this, they should not garner credibility because they are on the fringe?
I do not consider myself a conspiracy nut, but rather an engineer, man of science and "doubting Thomas" who relies on scientific evidence, not merely popularity of purported fact in mainstream media. If anyone can show that 19 suspects of the attacks were al-quaida members and that 5-7 were not found alive, i would be rather intrigued to see the facts other than "official reports say so." Mablespam 06:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I found this link about the Pentagon, I think its worthy for inclusion [6] -- Hamish ( Talk) 16:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Reaction From Morning Shows An unlikely source of news and comfort for New Yorkers and others across the country was Howard Stern, who kept listeners constantly updated on what was happening at the Trade Center and across New York City. Several listeners and frequent guest Crazy Cabbie called in to report what they were witnessing from various parts of the city. The Stern Show kept broadcasting well beyond its normal hours until mid-afternoon, in an attempt to provide a voice of reason in the aftermath.
I am disappointed to find this was deleted from the article on Apr 21, I had to do alot of searching to find out why, all the discussion was one-sided (archived Apr 2006). I can assert that it was more than a few listeners that day, likely more than usual due to the fact many radio and television transmitters were knocked out in the attacks, leaving fewer sources of information. In addition, the west coast markets heard the broadcast live, whereas normally the show is delayed. People in dozens of cities around the country listened to observers in New York who were mere blocks away from the events of 9/11. Maybe it cannot be added back entirely, perhaps re-written or just linked somewhere. This broadcast was part of the history of that day, surely someone out there agrees. Barrel-rider 05:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This Wikipedia entry is a blot on the fair name of Wikipedia.
Countless eminent scholars have pointed out NUMEROUS holes in the official story -- the use of thermate to damage the main structural columns of WTC 1 & 2, the removal of the evidence from the crime scene, the conflicting defense exercises on 9/11, the fact that WTC 7 was NOT hit by an aircraft but collapsed in its own footprint, commercial airliners CAN'T be flown at those speeds and maneovers because of their force feed-back systems, Hani Hanjour could barely fly a Cessna let alone a sophisticated airliner, the Pentagon showed virtually no signs of airliner wreckage, and on and on ad nauseum.
Retired US generals have come out in support of 9/11 conspiracy, Hollywood actors, schoolteachers, university professors, rock singers (Ministry, Slipknot, etc), journalists (yes, even the ones that don't submit 9/11 articles because their employers are PAID not to run the stuff (email me and I'll tell you some names)), school kids, tradesmen, etc, etc.
How many more people will it take before this section of Wikipedia at least QUALIFIES its statements to reflect the possibility that 4 inept patsies may not have pulled 9/11 but a cabal of US government officials including Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, GW Bush, Bill Clinton, Larry Silverstein, and a host of others pulled 9/11 to win the hearts and minds of the population to motivate the to go to war in Afgahnistan and Iraq (and perhaps Iran, etc).
Ministry have released a 9/11 conspiracy song "Lies, Lies, Lies"
"We're on a mission to never forget 3,000 people that I've never met We want some answers but all that we get Is some kinda shit about a terrorist threat."
Until this Wikipedia entry reflects reality, it will remain a part of the conspiracy that 9/11 was.
"A time when silence is betrayal" Martin Luther King
1. The real history of Al-Qaeda from the BBC [7] 2. In-depth analysis of the 9/11 commission [8] 3. Just some of the many unanswered questions that you wont find on Wikipedia, but the LA Times published [9] 4.A poll shows a third of Americans that the US helped in the 9/11 bombings, FOX News [10]
Research for yourself. Wikipedia articles only show one side of any story. Elfguy 16:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
On September 11, 2001 I remember watching on TV pictures taken in the middle east of people dancing and celebrating in the streets. I see no mention of those scenes in the "September 11, 2001 series of articles". Why? On some web forums I have heard these reports were false, but even if it is true that they were false it should be mentioned anyway since those pictures had a significant influence on the western public. Comments? Mieciu K 19:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a removed site from the 9/11 conspiracy theories site. I went ahead and WP:BB and added the site. This is the first page I have seen with such lame ass restrictions about posting sites. Travb ( talk) 01:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Great article. This is about as balanced as it can be without drifting over into the absurd by including every conspiracy theory and extreme bias known to man. To insist that there must be absolute, unassailable proof before printing anything about 9/11 is to expect the impossible. To insist that every POV be represented (from what I've read on this discussion board) for the article to be considered impartial is just plain crazy. The perpetrators' and their sympathizers' points of view simply are not valid. For example, I've yet to read a history book that says that Adolf Hitler allegedly was responsible for the Holocaust or that Germany allegedly invaded Poland in 1939. I don't recall seeing "equal time" being given to Nazi POVs on any matter. There's a good reason for this. Jlujan69 00:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
i think a terrorist attack infobox sghould be added to the article
This theory is CLEARLY NOTABLE as it has gotten major media attention. It completely debunks the "official" theory (who are you going to trust? Federal "career scientists" and so-called "professional structural engineers" or a neutral party like Oliver Stone?) and if it's not included in the article I may do something totally drastic and irrational. Cheers, JDoorj a m Talk 15:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I notice the death toll was again changed to the wrong one. Its not 2,976! Its 2,996 and this toll does not include the terrorists! Also, the real firgure is 2,948 confirmed dead, 24 reported dead and 24 reported missing, which comes to a toll of 2,996 victims. The particular website I used is cited by the White House and the IRS, which can be found on the home page of this website. The home page for this website is [12] and the web page were it states the correct death toll of the victims is [13].
The White House website cites the source on this link [14]. They have not updated this website, but the source is September 11 Victims, which is the particular website that I used for the firgure of 2,996 victims. Also, I don't think CNN is a good source at all, because the Tsunami death toll on their site is still 162,000, which is wrong.
Well that was 3 and 2 years ago. The particular website that I used to get the firgure of 2,996 is updated daily and it is correct. The correct death toll is 2,948 confirmed dead, 24 reported dead and 24 reported missing, which comes to a total of 2,996 victims [18]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.31.126 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 9 August 2006
I as well would like to clear up the confusion and determine the correct death toll. Also, it states on the homepage of this website that it was used as a source in the final 9/11 commission report [20].
Also, the 9/11 Commission Report reference to september11victims.com is among many different sources (also including CNN and others) they used. This was in reference to determining how many victims worked at or above the impact zone in the WTC, an investigation done by NIST. [21] Here's the footnote (#200, chapter 9) from the 9/11 Commission Report:
"For the estimate, see NIST report, "WTC Investigation Progress," June 22-23, 2004. For the updated death certificate information, see New York City report, "WTC Victim List," June 21, 2004. The analysis in this paragraph is based upon the following sources: CNN, "September 11: A Memorial," updated 2004 (online at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/index.html); company contacts, June 29, 2004 (online at http://worldtradeaftermath.com/wta/contacts/companies_list.asp?letter=1); CNN, WTC tenants, 2001 (online at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/tenants1.html); September 11 personal tributes, June 19, 2004 (online at http://www.legacy.com/LegacyTribute/Sept11.asp); September 11 personal profiles, Oct. 11, 2003 (online at http://www.september11victims.com/september11Victims); New York Times, Portraits: 9/11/01: The Collected "Portraits of Grief" (Times Books, 2002)."
And the 9/11 Commission itself never provided an official total figure. -- Aude ( talk contribs) 20:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Cool and if we can't firgure it out soon, its no big problem because on September 11 coming up this year many articles will give the final death toll so we can get it from them.
So did you determine if 2,976 or 2,996 is the correct number?
I do think that this video is well referenced. That is why others can write line by line debunks of the arguments this video makes (like [22]). If I want to check statements from the movie, all I need to do is google sources quoted, and read the rest of the referenced story. Although I do agree it should be in the 911 conspiracy article. Lakinekaki 18:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello there I just watch the movie "World Trade Center" and at the end it said 2,749 people were killed in the attack at the wtc. So therefore, I remember that they lowed it further from 2,752 to 2,749. So the new death toll when added up is 2,973 confirmed dead with 24 reported missing. All together its 2,997 victims and with the terrorists its 3,016 [23] [24].
Hello again I just updated the article with the correct death toll with 2,973 confirmed dead and with another 24 that remain listed as missing.
The death toll that CNN has at 2,973 is calculated like this. 2,749 died at the WTC. 125 died at the Pentagon. 59 died on flight 77. 40 died on flight 93. So, therefore the total dead comes to be 2,973 [25]. However, September 11 Victims is also a good source as well, because if you use their firgures it still adds up to 2,973. They have 2,948 listed as confirmed dead, but lets add one for flight 11 to make it 88 like CNN did. So the total confirmed dead will stand at 2,949 according to this site [26]. They also have another 24 people reported as dead [27]. Also, another 24 remain listed as missing [28]. So, the total according to September 11 Victims is 2,973 killed with another 24 that remain listed as missing to this day [29].
This is absolutely macabre. The point isn't determining exactly how many people died! This is exactly what Herbert called "the ferocious quibble over a comma."
Besides, with loss of life on this magnitude, exact casualty figures all but impossible. That's why the military uses the classification of "Missing."
In WW1, on the first day of the Somme offense (1 SEP 1916), 20,000 British soldiers were killed in 20 minutes. 20,000 were Missing. In fact, many of them were KIA. They were hit by German shells and their bodies completely disintegrated. Nothing was left to identify.
The idea of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (a British idea) came out of this reality. Such pettifogging exactitude marries horror with pedantry. Do you think they sit around at Yad Vashem trying to get the decimal points right?
Let us honor all the murdered, known and unknown.
PainMan 17:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I see what you mean, but this isn't a war its a terrorist attack in New York City so everyone that is confirmed and listed as missing are the victims of 9/11 and in total the death toll is 2,997 victims.
I'm afraid, Unsigned Person, that you miss the point. It was an act of war. Terrorism is what military analysts and historians call Asymmetrical Warfare. We used it against the British during the Revolution (let no one go brain dead and assume I'm labelling the Revolutionaries, for whom my great-great-great-great grandfather made guns, were terrorists). The Afghans against the Soviets. More pertinently, the tactics the IRA used against the British.
Never in history have acts of war been confined solely to sovereign states. The tens of thousands of terrorists we've killed, the 3 out of 4 Al-Qaeda leaders captured or killed, in the years since the attack certainly believed they were waging "holy" war against freedom, justice and religious toleration. The last, of course, being the thing they hate the most.
It's important for the government to ascertain the exact death toll for insurance companies, distrubting aid, distributions from the settlement fund, prevention of fraud (of which there has been a disgustingly large amount), etc. For history, however, it's not necessary. Whether it's 2997, 2998 or 3001 dead is irrelevent. It's like arguing over exactly how many Jews the Hitlerites killed during the Shoah--petty, pedantic and offensive.
PainMan 13:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't get your point. What are you trying to do? Make the death toll greater than it really is? Anyways, 9/11 might have been an "act of war", but it is still a terrorist attack. In the end, 3,016 people died in the attacks and 2,997 of them were victims. Also, when it comes to the attacks of 9/11 the exact numbers are known. So in this case it is important to get the numbers correct and I can state that we have.
Too many articles to check out. I found the comment do not reduce font sizes, the Wiki style sheets control presentation. That must be done manually by adding a DIV with the class references-small. Does anyone object this modification? It is custom to reduce the size of references when there are many. -- ReyBrujo 00:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Paranoid fictions and partisan, religious and racial hate have no place beside factual articles (implementation of this by the Drive By media would mean its self-immolation; hardly a bad thing). By writing only the facts, the conspiracy nutburgers are automatically refuted.
After all, the famous Czarist secret police forgery The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion does not warrant being displayed in full next to an article on Anti-Semitism.
This is even more relevant since many of the conspiracies "theories" revolve around the Mossad's having perpetrated the terror attacks ("Hey, guys! Let's attack our best ally, biggest financial supporter and main supplier of weapons and all to make terrorists look bad!"). E.g., "All of the Jews stayed home from work" or "All of the Jews were secretly warned (how? conference call? Mass email?) to stay away from the WTC on 9/11."
Listing such garbage on an equal footing with the facts only dignifies it.
PainMan 16:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Garbage? This entire page is Garbage. Tha FACTS do not support the 9/11 Commisions "findings" they never have. Loose Chnage is as close to tha facts as anyone will EVER get. The "findings" of the 9/11 Commission have been continually and successfully disputed. People like you who continue to blind themslevs to the truth so that you can shirk your REAL patriotic responsibilities make it easier for those really resposnible to perpetuate a lie. This article is not Neutral.-- 68.186.142.187 21:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Uh, the dude without the courage to sign his-/herself before attacking me should bother to actually read comments before attacking them. You might save yourself some embarassment. I made no comment on the 9/11 Commission Report whatsoever. In fact, I agree that 9/11 Commission was a joke. For example, it makes no mention of the proven involvement of Saddam Hussein in the preparation for the attacks.
PainMan 13:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I cannot agree with any of theories I read during these years about the date chosen by al-Qaeda. As European I think this is due to the youth of the U.S.A. and its lack of history.
At first we must ask ourselves what Islam says, why al-Qaeda was born, what al-Qaeda wants and who are the Heads.
The main principle of the Muslim Religion is in few words: " Allah is one and Mohammed is his Profhet".
The main figure in the Islam is the Caliph. The first Caliph was Adam.
The Islam overruns the conception of Indipendent States, such as Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Egypt, Lybanon, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan and Turkey.
al-Qaeda as radical fundamentalist Islamic group, whose name means "the base" in English", has the main purpose to establish the pure application of the Muslim Religion just under one Guide, the Caliph, and to restore the Caliphate over the whole Islamic World.
Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are founders and senior members of al-Qaeda's shura council, and come from prominent high class families.
"We are in a new phase of a very old war" says - at the beginning of an Islamic website - the title of a townscape painted by Italian painter Bernardo Bellotto (Venice 1721-1780 Warsaw), called Canaletto, between 1759/1761 in Vienna in a series of 13 prospects and reproducing the exact topographical urban panorama from the Belvedere (palace) .
This perspective construction unfolds between the gardens of both the Schwarzenberg Palace and the Belvedere itself in the foreground to a row of stately Baroque palaces and churches in the middle focal plane of the painting. These buildings are evidence of the active construction "boom" in Vienna after the second Turkish siege in 1683.
But why the Belvedere (palace)?
The Belvedere (palace) is a baroque complex built by Prince Eugene of Savoy in the 3rd district of Vienna, south-east of the city center.
After buying the plot of land in 1697, Prince Eugene had a large park created. The Schloss Belvedere began as a suburban entertainment villa: in 1714 work began to erect what is now called the Lower Belvedere, not as a palace but as a garden villa, with an orangerie and paintings gallery, with suitable living quarters. The architect was Johann Lukas von Hildebrandt, one of the most important architects of the Austrian Baroque, who produced in the complex of buildings his masterwork.
And who was Prince Eugene of Savoy?
Prince Eugene of Savoy was one of the most brilliant generals in the history of the Habsburg Empire and took part in the first large-scale battle of the Habsburg-Ottoman Wars, the Battle of Vienna in 1683.
The Battle of Vienna took place on September 11, 1683.
After a mass in a Chapel in Kahlenberg at the gates of Vienna on September 11, 1683, in the morning, Jan III Sobieski King of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and commander in Chief of the Christian Army of Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor, moved against the Muslim Armies of the Sultan Mehmed IV, commanded by Grand Vizier Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Pasha, and defeated. The battle finished on September 12, 1683, about at 17 p.m.
The battle marked the turning point in the 300-year struggle between the forces of the Central European kingdoms, and the Ottoman Empire. Over the sixteen years following the battle, the Habsburgs of Austria, and their allies gradually occupied and dominated southern Hungary and Transylvania, which had been largely cleared by the Turkish forces.
The date of September 11, 2001 attacks chosen by al-Qaeda could mean the beginning and the revenge of a "very old War" against the Infidels.
If all this was known why didn't anyone warn us about the date September 11th?
Hi,
I'm trying to find responses to 9/11 not from the media or politicians but from historians, political scientists, philsophers, sociologists etc. It seems to be an area that would be useful to include in the article. Does someone know of any such responses?
--Lucaas
lol. I think your a bit of head of yourself. I think your answer lies in the 26th Century.
Everyone, from the Queen of England to the hounds of hell, knows truth behind 9/11. So in the name of decency and understanding of darkness that it involved in this whole monstrosity remove any mention of responsibilities and/or motives from article. These are false facts, and they simply cannot stand in encyclopedia. It is proven beyond reasonable doubt that each & every cause for war in Iraq is false. Please, act immediately! This page will be one of the focal points in times of anniversary, and Wikipedia must not stand as a lie. I sincerely hope that you all understand that this is not a question of debate; it is question of humanity and liberty… Act with haste, & God speed…
Yes baby, we are going mainstream! -- Striver 03:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
This mother wants you to not mention her daughter in this context. Are we legaly bound to respect that? -- Striver 01:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
No were not and we will not. I bet if her daughter was alive today she would smack her mother out for saying that!
Why is this in the article lol:
"The attacks were widely referred to as terrorism in most of the world, by the majority of people, no matter their race, nationality or faith."
"The attacks were widely referred to as terrorism in most of the world, by the majority of people, no matter their race, nationality or faith.". Who's Line is it anyway? -- Haham hanuka 08:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that these attacks should be considered terrorosm. After all, 214,000+ people died when Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened, but the U.S. Government still denies the fact that it was terrorism, while dwelling on 9/11 airplane bombings, where less than 3,000 people died.
OK, I know that this WAS terrorism, but it doesn't compare to things like the Armenian Genocide, where 1.5 million people were brutally, sadistically killed (like setting women's hair on fire, and making their children clap & laugh), while others were tortured, and forced to walk through the desert, so hugry, that they ate droppings of camels. The worst part is that USA helps cover this up, and even fired a U.S. Ambassador for reffering to the genocide as a 'genocide'.
There have been many other tragedies - like the Indian Ocean Earthquake, which added to 275,000+ deaths, and 229,866 lost people - in non-U.S. countries, but they just don't pay too much attention.
Americans are self-centered, and (they will deny this) they don't care about deaths in any other country, because, sub-conciously or conciously, they beleive they are superior, becuase the media tells them that, and they think that because they are rich, they themselves are worth more.
"Why is this 9/11 series so incredibly huge?? It rivals WW2 articles in size. And is far larger than descriptions of many wars lasting many years and claiming incredible human victims (like Rwandan_Genocide, Darfur_conflict, Srebrenica_massacre, Algerian Civil War, Second Congo War, to name a few) Wouldnt one, or two, or three articles be quite enough for describing a single event?" --Aryah 03:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You are a very smart person! Someone who understands what I'm talking about!
Anyway, yeah, it's bad that those people died, but here's the secret: BUSH, THE U.S. GOV'T, CIA, ETC. ALL KNEW THIS WAS GONNA HAPPEN!....But they don't want YOU to know.
Enough of all that subliminal fodder don't hide it like some villains… say it straight! Truth with PEACE & LOVE!
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2006/08/21/254.html So It would be nice to see it here… Do you know that FBI actually confirmed (better word, admitted) that Osama didn’t have anything, nothing, nada… to do with 911 (google it)? Just check the news… and correct those errors… that is to whoever is in charge there?
Michael Moore? Squiggyfm 21:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This is getting close to link spam. We don't care what links say, if you want to add something then add it. But stop spamming the talk page with stuff people aren't responding to. -- Golbez 03:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps they are shocked:)… Apologies, as an old user I should have known better… just a bit exited, can't blame… but I like that court link the most… it will be available tomorrow… nations wide… I won't add anything to the article, however I would remove those "questionable" lyrics, and stick to the facts… whatever, it's done, take care…
Whoever put the tag on top of the page about not discussing conspiracys or gvt inepitude, thank you. We don't need any crap like that in a factual article.
But ignore me. Back to the discussion. 69.148.78.247 04:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
What's there to discuss… it's on CNN as we speak… front page… you can hardly miss it… factual article? LOL…
If the discussion is innapropriate, than say so, if a block is in order, than block. This is supposed to be an article about the Sept 11 attacks, and this is a discussion page. Wikipedia does not censor.(no discussion of government ineptitude even?) Please do not replace that tag. It will be removed. SkeenaR 05:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
and this http://www.courttv.com/home_primetime/index.html? This is just prime time… —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovelight ( talk • contribs)
Yeah look, block him then, or if you can't do it than call in an admin. It's been done before, and obviously a tag like that doesn't help with the hard cases, does it? We don't need to scare people off from discussing the things involved in the events that may or may not be included in the article with such a warning. SkeenaR 06:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It's completely innapropriate. Many new users would be afraid to post anything for fear of being bitten, and the Naziesque implication that mention of ineptitude on the part of the government won't be tolerated isn't so cool either, is it?
SkeenaR 06:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, why don't you warn him and then carry on from there? The boilerplate won't fix this problem, but an admin can sure make a difference in these situations. that's why you have those buttons. SkeenaR 06:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC).
Thanks. I think that boilerplate was a real blight on the page and that no one would want this place to reflect that kind of attitude. No offense PCH, we all get pissed off. SkeenaR 07:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the one who initially posted here. I probably didn't make it clear, but my meaning was that there should be a section on theories and conspiracies regarding the attacks, as currently, this article does not show any other ideas shared by people who do not believe the "official" report. Honestly, it's difficult to decide what to put on an article without discussing the article itself. Sort of like trying to make a guide book for computer software without knowing what the software does. You've just closed off any chance of extending and improving the article, which is the whole point of this website isn't it? I admit my first post was a bit vague on what was intended, but it doesn't help if you don't give me a chance to edit it and refine it to the quality you oh so desperately desire. 213.120.158.229 08:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
There are ways to add information and improve the article without creating a zoo-like atmosphere. Find the correct spaces in the article to add appropriate verifiable info. SkeenaR 23:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Is up for review at [30]. Thought all of you would want to know. Morton devonshire 21:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For a credible academic source, see the works of the eminent Professor Noam Chomsky over the last decade.
I must also add that i have viewed this discussion and i have come to the conclusion that the article and this discussion are, as one contributor has pointed out, heavily influenced by U.S. opinion and not by verifiale facts. Unfortunately, I have also come to the conclusion that it is useless attempting to rectify this article as it will bounce off minds that are incapable of processing critical ideas. However, it would be unfair to pejoratise individuals who are utterley and hopelessly repressed by the illusion created by the very anti-thesis of that which they believe they stand for. It is often true that the slave protects the interests of his master over his own freedom.
The events of that day were despicable and cannot be condoned by anyone, but this should add impetus to the drive for a free and true representation of facts that have been both scientifically and critically assessed.
I ask only that you read, think and criticise ALWAYS. Look to your own integrity and not a websites guidelines - rules are created by men and women just like you.
TDM-UK August 2006
http://www2.nea.org/he/heta05/images/2005pg119.pdf#search=%22911%20academics%22 Lovelight 14:21 CET
Thank you, Levi, for the compliment. I apologise for any excessive rhetoric; i obviously spend far too much time with politicians.
I do indeed have numerous additions and subtractions that i hope will improve and neutralise this article. However, in order to present a case that is academically sound i am in the process of systematically analysing the language in the article according to two established methods within contemporary Linguistics. For now, I will state those two methods so that readers can assess their validity. The first is Stylistics, also known as Critical Linguistics, and the second is Critical Discourse Analysis as pioneered by Professor Norman Fairclough.
I hope that you will understand that this exercise will take a considerable amount of time and that you will be patient until i can present the results.
I want only a neutral and objective account that satisfies not only the U.S. public, but also, the rest of the global community.
In the words of one of your senators - "I'll be back!"
TDM-UK 14:22, 26th August 2006.
As for this Chomsky "is not credible" statement, well i'm afraid that the media isn't credible either and certainly not frontpagemag.com. Oh dear!
I'd like to get a consensus on the addition of two links that I think are very important (I did not see either under "External links". One is Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline, which is very heavily detailed, and was turned into a book. Another is 911Timeline.net, a similar project. Are both biased? In some ways, yes. But the information contained on both sites make both links highly essential for anyone wishing to do more research on the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks.-- Fightingirish 18:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It's official: no evidence for bin laden being involved: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/280806binladen.htm] -- Striver 01:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
PS Let me remind you that few days ago video came out on CNN where Bush clearly stated that there is no relation whatsoever between 911 and war in Iraq. Abiding to these volatile times, that stream was available for very limited time, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. It is the nature of information on Internet to multiply when repressed so here is the truth, plain & simple: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/40631/ -- Lovelight 6:28 AM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
Get back on track here. We're talking about Bin Laden and 9/11, not Bin Laden and Saddam. Spread your FUD elsewhere. -- Mmx1 04:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
As I said, nothing but lies there… One can easily dismiss every single one. Well, in a few days perhaps (or visit my page, beware of vandals though)… In mean time I would like to show you a riddle... Say, you know Christiane Amanpour, watch how this name get's new symbolism, as we slightly dissect it with logos. Christ+Aman+pour=lies. Now, I see that you are a hunter, so I'll just take it for granted that you know what Aman is? As far as associated press goes, the name itself implicates some form of connection. I always point to discussion here: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/3094... with such things in mind I honestly cannot consider FOX to be reliable source. Firstly, there's obvious danger of rabies, second, it is nature of the fox to be cunning… and as I see & hear people trust that source in same manner they trust prison planet… Whether you find these thoughts interesting or not, fact remains that all those references are refuted for a long time now (haven't really checked, but I would bet there are some related references in that unofficial part of the story, you know conspiracy?), there are voices calling for independent investigation and article should reflect that… that’s all. Keep in mind that official story is the poorest and dimmest of them all… whether administration simply failed to prevent attack or actually inflicted that "plastic knife wound", they are not to be trusted. As a military man I think that you'll enjoy this: http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01, you'll also feel some rage… I promise:)… -- Lovelight 7:44 AM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
Oh, but please, do understand that I coupe with my feelings every day, I do tend to be overwhelmed by unnecessary death, pain and suffering… honestly!
You see, I know that you won't approve, I see this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1963391; to be deeply related… -- Lovelight 8:07 AM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
It is interesting to note that the flight numbers follow a pattern. Starting with number 11 (flight AA 11), adding the digits of individual flights, it goes with 13 (flight UA 175), 14 (flight AA 77) and 12 (flight UA 93), where flight UA 93 is out of sequence that got delayed by 40 minutes at Newark airport. Otherwise, it would have hit after flight 11. Clearly, the master mind team has a taste of mathematics and they are at large.
Why don’t the terrorists count as deaths? Of course their death (as opposed to all others) was intentional, but after all, they are also human beings. 92.104.107.212 ( talk) 06:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
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