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The cited link is brokent/not available right now. The cited fact states that amongst other countries, India and UK introduced anti-terrorist legislations. I can't figure out what legislations in these countries are being referred to.
Great video debunking the idiocy known as Loose Change.
Is someone going to revert to the previous version? The content looks professional, but there isn't much of it! Wave of Mutilation 05:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been away on other things, and haven't got to starting the Alternate Theories section yet. (Nothing mysterious has happened to me! ;) I think it is safe to start on a foreknowledge section, and a dissenting government officials section. I did look at what it was saying about that one Bin Laden tape on 9/11 myths.com, and admit that when you see the whole tape, some shots look considerably more like Bin Ladin than others. The bit about the ring, when Islam prohibits it is still out of place. That guy laughs a lot, too. Bin Laden doesn't seem to be the kind who has a good sense of humor, but it did seem a more informal situation. Still, the video is darker and has poor resolution, so that may account for some of the difficulty. I downloaded a low-resolution video from cnn.com of the second plane hitting the tower, and there is a red spot off-center from the plane just before it strikes, similar to those in Loose Change, but I guess I need to quit being cheap and just order some of the documentaries to get better resolution. I've read about half of a page on Able Danger somebody pointed out to me above, and it is interesting. This may not be quick, but as it is a minority view, we won't be able to get into much depth here anyway. Thanks for helping guard the Wikipedia content, BTW, guys. I hope there is a way to ban outright vandals, by IP mask, not userid. -- ThaThinker 23:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The 'alternate theories section' is 9/11 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison Talk 12:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article should address some disagreements over some of the particulars. It isn't screamingly obvious that every detail of the Commission Report is correct, in fact much of it is disputed and there are lots of omissions. Anything at all that doesn't jive perfectly with the official version goes to the "conspiracy theory" can? That ain't right. SkeenaR 20:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
It can't be true that the official version is the only explanation of events that can be encyclopedically correct as evidenced by the dozens of other articles that contain information which is in contradiction with the official version. SkeenaR 20:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Morton, that's just a bunch more opinion from you. I'm inclined to agree with Mongo on this..no silly unsubsustantiated wide-eyed POV OR. SkeenaR 21:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you've ever noticed but things don't necessarily have to come from Jones or "truth" or whoever to be in contradiction. The mainstream media and the gov't as reliable...what a joke...we always get the straight goods from them. Go get the WMD's...it'll be a cakewalk...flowers and hummers from the Iraqi girls. Oh yeah...the Taliban have been overthrown...Afghanistan is now an ally in the War On Terror...a member of the Coalition of the Willing. Do you believe that shit Morton? SkeenaR 21:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
We are talking about silly unsubstantiated wild eyed POV OR and reliable sources. Yes, they make promises too. SkeenaR 22:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know, I didn't write here to argue. I just wanted to say that this article is missing some encyclopedic info. But now that you mention it, no these things we were just referring to don't stay hidden forever, they manage to stay hidden just long enough to say "it's too late now". In the past, some of these types of things have been shown to happen by design. As to the point of the Commission, it's the opinion of some that it was to get to the bottom of things, and it's the opinion of others that it was meant to be a government sposored whitewash. SkeenaR 22:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if it's a secret, or which things are secret. But if you want an example that I've brought up on this page before about reliable information- all the unreliable, wide-eyed POV, agenda driven private sites under the control of one or two webmasters were trying explain in no uncertain terms that there were no WMD's in Iraq, while the MSM and gov't were cramming it hard enough down the throat of the public that most people suddenly thought it was a good idea to go on these cakewalk missions to spread freedom and democracy around the world and to the poor backwards dumbasses who attacked us because they hate us for such things. My only point is that I think we should rethink what we consider reliable and unreliable sources, or if we might use many different kinds of sources. I think we need to diversify this article a bit. Either that or it should be deleted and reposted at the State Department and DHS. SkeenaR 23:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Well you should consider how many non-conspiracy theorists there were who were pissed off because Bush chose to invade before allowing weapons inspections to take place. But no, it was just the conspiracy theorists who saw it coming. *roll eyes*-- DCAnderson 23:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not what I'm saying, and you are misrepresenting my comments. When I mentioned this example previously, I used Scott Ritter as the example of someone claiming that there were no WMD's there. Mostly, he was only taken seriously by alternative media rather than mainstream. He is not from the "wild eyed" crowd, nor were the "tin-hatters" the only ones to take him seriously, but for the most part the MSM pushed the govt line and the rest is history. Roll eyes he says. Does it hurt them to see this? You can't stand the fact that georgie and o'reilly were completely full of shit? That Tin Hatter Alex Jones was right that time? It doesn't matter anyway. I think I've made my point about the sources. SkeenaR 00:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
George Bush and Bill O'Reilly could both be described as "full of shit?" Stop the presses! My whole world is coming apart...gah... Papa Bear, nooooo!-- DCAnderson 00:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Somewhere there's a chat board that wonders where everyone is. Tom Harrison Talk 00:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Ok, I'm done :) SkeenaR 00:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States
Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.-- Ryz05 t 23:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
An observation that bears repeating: this article is Wikipedia's version of events, based on verifiable enyclopedic content; the US government version has its own article.
Some of the discussion seems to suggest all the content is opinion without being definitively true or false. That might apply to good-faith political opinions, but it does not apply to engineering opinions. Most objections come down to some variation of "why is a controlled demolition not being seriously considered?" The simple answer is that it does not merit consideration. A deliberate demolition of the towers while rescue efforts were on going would constitute pre-meditated mass murder, and if any evidence pointed to it, then without question a thorough investigation of the crime would be necessary. However, there is no such evidence. While it is true there are some observations consistent with a deliberate demolition (and these are almost all based the lowest-quality video and photographs), there are no examples of observations simultaneously consistent with demolition and not consistent with catastrophic structural failure.
Meanwhile, more valid, and useful, questions such as whether there was negligence before or political exploitation after go unaddressed. Peter Grey 03:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
That's a little deceptive, since the government version of events did not begin with the 9/11 Commission Report. This article is POV mainly not because of POV statements, but because it seems to assume the government view is the right one, as your POV statement does, while giving no consideration for the opinions of a substantial minority. You assume if there was good evidence of it, that there would be any will to undertake a criminal investigation. If this was a conspiracy that reached, for example, into the highest levels of government, we might well NOT expect that. There are good and responsible reasons to suggest they were controlled demolitions. Numerous secondary explosions, both reported and measured, and what appear to be squibs shot from many angles, and pools of molten metal lasting for MONTHS are in fact not consistent with melting on account of what is basically kerosine. Is it my fault you haven't done your homework?
See: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
The challenge is to see how much holds water once the dust settles.
Much I think would have to be changed about this page to remove support for the government theory. Better to have one introduction page that links to all the sub-pages. 9/11 skeptics have much better evidence than the people who characterize us as wearing tin-foil hats would give us credit for, at least in our opinion, and so long as there is a substantial minority that supports it, it deserves mention. I suppose somewhere, there is or should be a rule in wikipedia that it also stand some test of reasonableness, and so while I am not sure if the point is moot or not, it is the opinion of many of us that many such good arguments exist. In science, nothing is true or false, only more or less probable, BTW. This should not prevent one from reaching working conclusions, as in a forensic investigation. Of course, no forensic investigation is possible in the current case, as the evidence was unlawfully removed from the scene of the crime, and the investigation was underfunded, not allowed access to the crime scene, and perfunctory at best. Exploitation of 9/11 as an excuse to abridge our constitutional rights is sorta peripheral to the events themselves, but might be linked to from here. Any other pearls of skepticism to offer us as to problems with the official theory you'd care to volunteer? The Flat Earth theory gets at least mentioned on the Earth page, even though it has nothing anywhere near as tangible to point to in the way of evidence as the 9/11 critics do. If our complete exlusion with uncritical acceptance of the government position isn't POV, then I do not know what is. If we were cranks, we would deserve better. We would suggest that our evidence is much better than that.
If a lot of people wish to remove all disputed assertions from this and have POV sub-articles, as Mongo suggests, this is also possible. The downside is, how can we identify the person in first alleged Bin Laden confession tape, if we can't say he is, or he isn't Osama? What we have here works just fine for an official version, IMHO, and it only needs to be brought into balance with alternate theories, of which there is really only one, which I would formulate as follows: There are enough credible problems in the official version to call for a new truly independent, and far more public, open and comprehensive investigation into 9/11 than we have already had in the 9/11 Commission. I do this to solve the problem that there are people who consider themselves skeptics of the official version, but do not think the towers collapsed as a result of controlled demolition (i.e. LIHOP as opposed to MAHOP). They are generally happy to join with us in our call to bring these matters to the public attention, and hopefully, more independent and open investigation. Sunlight is, after all, the best disinfectant - for political matters anyway. One note about "Loose Change" I've come across - I don't believe he mentions the flashes just before or as the planes hit the buildings are in the second edition; only the first.
BTW guys, although it is a related debate, WMD's are really a different topic.
-- ThaThinker 11:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Undue weight is clearly not applicable. SkeenaR 22:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. -- ThaThinker 00:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Undue weight is applicable in keeping theories regarding shape-shifting extra-dimensional reptoids and other such nonsense out of the article as it is the view of a tiny fringe minority. But it is not a tiny minority that disagrees with many different aspects of the official version and therefore some of these aspects deserve at least a mention here. SkeenaR 00:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
But that's not the point. It doesn't matter who feels passionately about what. I am not trying to prove that the official version is wrong. Also, I'm not trying to offend anybody no matter what they believe. The point is that the Undue Weight clause is not applicable per the reason I cited above. SkeenaR 01:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
So how are they not a minority?-- DCAnderson 01:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
They may or may not be a minority, but they are not a "tiny minority". Read the policy. SkeenaR 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
They may or may not be a minority, but they are not a "tiny minority". They are a "significant minority". What you just stated above is pure opinion. Check the news, check google rankings on 9/11 related subjects, check the polls, and not just current ones. Read the policy. SkeenaR 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
All I've seen of these guys so far is:
I'm not convinced that this is a signifigant minority. Vocal, yes. Signifigant, no.-- DCAnderson 02:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I must be on the right track seeing as how you are now on the offensive with a bunch of POV and not one shred of evidence to back it up. On the other hand, I can find plenty of evidence supporting my assertions regarding the Undue Weight policy. You can go ahead and ask for it. I will give it to you. But I wonder if you will attempt another refute similar to the one above, thereby keeping us in an pointless merry-go-round. SkeenaR 03:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Aren't the talk pages on all the 9/11 articles pointless merry-go-rounds? But allright, show me your evidence, I've probably seen it and refuted it before on one of the merry-go-round passes.-- DCAnderson 03:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
CNN had a web poll (above) showing over 90% who doubted the official 9/11 story. A few years back, Zogby had one saying I think 49% of New Yorkers (I don't know if city or state, probably the former) thought the government was complicit in the attacks. A more recent article discusses another Zogby poll:
"According to a new Zogby poll, less than half of Americans are convinced that that the events of September 11 have been thoroughly investigated, RAW STORY has learned.
In the telephone survey of 1200 individuals, just 47% agreed that 'the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense." Almost as many, 45%, indicated they were more likely to agree "that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success.'"
Found at: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Less_than_half_of_Americans_satisfied_0523.html
In the interest of disclosure, the Zogby polls are funded by 911truth.org. I am not affiliated with either, nor any related formal organization, at least thus far. Although these numbers come from only one source plus a CNN web poll, I am aware of no polls by other organizations to refute it, either. Rather sizeable meetings on the subject have been staged around the country, and there are upcoming concerts in Austin on this theme. Although the television media refuse to acknowledge its existence, there is a substantial and growing minority that hold this view. I suggest that the pervasive media blackout itself should be evidence that something is wrong. I realize this is difficult news for many to hear, and that you may have nothing in your experience to relate it to. This is why I am being patient and deliberate with my request for balance in this article - to give you guys a little time to get over the denial phase that such a substantial minority exists, but is being blacked out from mainstream media. If we simply engage in edit wars, it'll be harder for us to get anything figured out. -- ThaThinker 03:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
You think you can wave a magic wand, and say that those polls have no evidential value? It is the only evidence we have on the subject. It is POV to leave out a substantial minority. Do you care to offer evidence to refute me, or can we just disregard you as argumentative? I have no love of disagreeing with people without evidence. I don't intend to participate in such debates. The number of people posting here in support of better balance should also qualify as evidence. Where is your basis for saying the polls are misleading? The thrust of them is pretty obvious. Ironic, isn't it, that you claim to be a Wikipedian against censorship. -- ThaThinker 03:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Look, there are three or four CNN polls, at least two Zogby polls that you obviously don't give credibility too, but you would have to prove they are invalid(their results are more scientific than your opinion), there are some other polls which I could look up, there are scientists, military experts, government officials, computer experts, journalists, intelligence experts, many of whom are distinguished professionals in their fields with excellent credentials. There have been many mainstream news articles and televion programs regarding this, especially outside of the United States(such as Canada). Can you just admit that the minority is significant and that some of the disagreements should be presented in the article? Or you want sources on this(like you haven't seen them-and would it make a difference to you). SkeenaR 03:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
What about me? I don't I get any baseless rhetoric from you? We have plenty of evidence. If it's evidence regarding the Undue Weight policy we have plenty and you know it. SkeenaR 03:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Just because I don't want to spend a lot of time retreading the same ground, here are the threads on other pages where that Zogby poll is discussed:
No, that's exactly what you are doing, taking us in another circle. I think the next step is to start adding material, sources and citing policy as it's being done to make sure there are no violations. I am well aware of my limits and boundaries as an editor and I hope others are as well. It looks like this will be a bumpy ride for any who take on the challenge of NPOV'ing this article. SkeenaR 03:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"No, that's exactly what you are doing, taking us in another circle."
That was sarcasm, for the curious. I am not interested in keeping this thread going indefinitely. You tried to characterize the minority as insignificant, and I responded, not knowing of your research. New or old, its still evidence. Google on 9/11 and truth, or 9/11 and conspiracy, and you will find MILLIONS of hits, with many of the top ones being critical of the official version. This is evidence too. Nitpicking at the Zogby polls can't make them vanish completely, until we have them by other organizations. The fact that we don't should also seem suspicious to you. The news blackout, and the lack of other polls on the subject doesn't seems suspicious to you? I've given you three evidential items: pools, google hits, and posters here, and you only try to say they are not evidence. -- ThaThinker 04:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
News blackout and lack of other polls? Are you sure it's a cover up or (drumroll) it just isn't significant.-- DCAnderson 04:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Criticism is not evidence. Evidence of conspiracy theories belongs on the corresponding page. Evidence supporting conspiracy theories (the demolition ones, at least) has not been found. There is evidence supporting the mainstream account, there is none indicating demolition - it's that simple. Peter Grey 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm referring to claims such as "nineteen men affiliated with Al-Qaeda hijacked two commercial airliners and flew them into the World Trade Center, causing its collapse" and similar claims. It has not been proven that the "hijackers" were affiliated with Al-Qaeda (in fact some of the alleged hijackers are still alive), and whether or not the planes alone caused the collapse of the towers is likewise up for debate. Just because the government says one thing doesn't discredit anyone who says the opposite. There are several similar claims made throughout the article. NPOV demands that we do not take the patriotic point of view, and make sure it is known that the government's report on the 9/11 attacks are speculatory at best. Don't give an Ameriflag 03:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe anyone here has asked for that. What is fact and what is nonsense seems to be disputed. What seems beyond dispute, is that a substantial minority is being censored from this page. For Alternate Theories to be added to this page, no removal of "facts" which we would not label as such, is needed. To keep them on a separate page, and remove all government version only statements from this one is the only choice that would require removing anything, unless you guys decide to remove details from the official story. -- ThaThinker 03:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I've answered this already. Mainstream sources such as mainstream news items, Congressional websites and the Congressional record, and mainstream documentaries. -- ThaThinker 04:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is nothing more than spin. Any amendments made adding in "verifiable" information contradicting the US government's version of events, is simply deleted.
This article is not "verifiaable information"...it is a one-sided piece composed of selected propaganda.
Disagreements that are held by a significant minority. SkeenaR 06:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Why are there all these questions that are still unanswered? Who warned Mayor Brown not to fly on September 11?
Someone quoted FEMA: "The Boeing 707 that was considered in the design of the towers was estimated to have a gross weight of 263,000 pounds and a flight speed of 180 mph AS IT APPROACHED AN AIRPORT; (!) the Boeing 767-200ER aircraft that were used to attack the towers had an estimated gross weight of 274,000 pounds and flight speeds of 470 to 590 mph UPON IMPACT" - - - But this is just another sleazy presentation of the least relevant facts, because the early Boeing 707s had a CRUISE SPEED of 591 mph - THE SAME IMPACT SPEED AS THE HIGHEST VELOCITY 767! And the 767 is only 14,000 pounds heavier than the 707! And the 767s weren't FULLY-LOADED! And the WTC RESIDENT STRUCTURAL ENGINEER, Frank DeMartini, who was initially "hired by the structural engineering firm Leslie E. Robertson Associates to help with the repairs of the 1993 terrorist bombing at the World Trade Center" (NYT paid notices, obituaries), said, in an interview broadcast on the History Channel, January 2001:
"The building was designed to have a fully-loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building PROBABLY COULD SUSTAIN MULTIPLE IMPACTS OF JETLINERS, because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid. And the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. IT REALLY DOES NOTHING to the screen netting." 58.106.69.176 15:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the one getting upset about an "allegedly" being placed where it belongs, because there is as much evidence that the hijackers were Al-Qaeda as there is that they werne't. We're here posting facts, not propaganda. Don't give an Ameriflag 04:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
With edit summaries like:
the answer is, yes, you need to chill.-- DCAnderson 04:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The latter, yes. But the former (which was the latter chronologically)? How is that not chill? What['s wrong with saying "allegedly" anyway? Which are you more afraid of, being branded a terrorist, or a liar? Don't give an Ameriflag 04:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"How is that not chill?"
"What['s wrong with saying "allegedly" anyway?"
"Which are you more afraid of, being branded a terrorist, or a liar?"
"No significant group that says otherwise."
"Plus, Bin Laden admitted to it repeatedly"
-10/7/01 Osama bin Laden [4] -10/9/01 Suleiman Abu Ghaith [5] -10/14/01 Osama bin Laden [6] -10/27/01 Suleiman Abu Ghaith [7] -2/02 Osama bin Laden [8] -4/02 Ahmed Alhaznawi and other 9/11 hijackers – these martyrdom videos contradict the claim that the hijackers are still alive, their identities were stolen, etc. [9] -9/10/02 Osama bin Laden and others [10] -9/02 Ayman Al Zawahiri [11] -10/02 Ramzi Binalshibh and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed [12] -3/03 Osama bin Laden [13] -9/21/03 Abu Muhammad al-Ablaj [14] -8/04 Abu Jandal [15] -10/30/04 Osama bin Laden [16] -9/12/05 Adam Gadahn [17] -- Huysman talk| contribs 16:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm attempting to use information in accordance with policy and I am open to reasonable discussion. Are you? SkeenaR 07:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, I'm not sure which conclusions your talking about unless you are referring to my comments about the Undue Weight policy. There are disagreements with the material in this article that are held by a significant minority and they they have to be presented according to policy. SkeenaR 08:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, your comments about mainstream press coverage are pure opinion. I have yet to see you legitimatley dispute any point made about the Undue Weight policy. SkeenaR 08:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Please try to be civil. There needs to be more information in the article and I will put it there. I'm not trying to push pov, or "junk science". Please tell me why you called me a "looney". SkeenaR 09:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Used to be that I felt like the odd-man-out here. Skee-man, don't take it so seriously, it's just effing Wikipedia. Morton devonshire 07:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Morton, but everythings cool. I could go play PS2 or something but I find this more enjoyable believe it or not. My girlfriend left me for Stephen Harper(better not tell his wife) SkeenaR 08:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
What is going on here? Why the name calling, the vituperatives and other nonsense? If there are conspiracy theories and these are described in the article as such, what is the problem? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
vituperative-"Using, containing, or marked by harshly abusive censure." SkeenaR 16:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There are a substantial amount of facts and associated material, from verifiable sources, that is not covered in this article. It presents an "glossed over" version of events by omitting all the incosistancies and the implications. Not to mention isolating 9/11 attacks from the Global context over the last 40 years.
As such, it falls under the catagory of propaganda, instead of a comprehensive answer from a "global encyclopedia".
This is not a political tool.
Great. We appreciate that. We can give you plenty. -- ThaThinker 15:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As Thinker said "What is fact and what is nonsense seems to be disputed. What seems beyond dispute, is that a substantial minority is being censored from this page." SkeenaR 16:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Whether they've been debunked or not is not at issue. The Flat Earth theory is not excluded from the Earth page. This theory has more of substance to it than that one, and yet you guys keep this page POV, and exclude it. It is only the opinion of the majority that these theories have been debunked, and many of them haven't studied the subject very extensively; but that does not justify this idea not being mentioned on this page. This page is POV, and you are unwilling to allow such facts as may exist that might tend to undermine the official point of view to be mentioned on this page. I think we are at a POV impasse. I mean, on you guys' self description, you guys say how you're POV against 911 "conspriacy theoriests", and that is fine and well, but the Wikipeda requires you share "your" page with those of other viewpoints, especially when it is the main article on those events. There is substantial evidence of forewarnings suppressed by the 9/11 Commission, many former government officials and agents have come out and denounced the official version, and all those secondary explosions reported by people just before the buildings collapsed, that aren't being mentioned here, and should be. -- ThaThinker 04:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"A 19th-century organization called the Flat Earth Society advocated the even-then discredited idea that the Earth was actually disc-shaped, with the North Pole at its center and a 150- foot (50 meter) high wall of ice at the outer edge. It and similar organizations continued to promote this idea, based on religious beliefs and conspiracy theories, through the 1970s. Today, the subject is more frequently treated tongue-in-cheek or with mockery.
"Since the attacks, various conspiracy theories have emerged. These include speculation that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, or that they actually planned the attacks. Some of those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives. Some also contend that a commercial airliner did not crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."
Ok, I stand corrected. It does mention it, but this idea is more subsantial than four sentences. This doesn't begin to describe the fishy aspects of the attacks. If 45% of the people in the Zogby poll believe something is fishy about the idea, the provide me another poll, or else we should at least get about 20%. This idea has much more going for it than you give it credit for: Able Danger, the Pheonix Memo, Mousoui reported on an expired visa by FBI agents in Minnisota, the FBI agents who warned David Schippers, former lead councel in Bill Clinton's impeachment being warned, the mayor of San Francisco being reportedly warned by Condi Rice, as the Chronicle says it was told on Pacifica Radio. All these things are factual, and have not been debunked, whatever the ultimate judgment of history on the matter. Can't you guys quit playing politics, and let a more balanced view emerge? Again, the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims published a list of questions, many of which weren't even addressed by th 9/11 Commission at all. Can't you respect their wishes? -- ThaThinker 05:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Al the things you mention appear in 9/11 conspiracy theories. That is pretty generous under WP:NPOV#Undue weight.-- DCAnderson 05:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
These things are included in detail in that article as per the title. In this article, things that are unverifiable, alleged or disputed must be presented as such according to policy. SkeenaR 05:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
So lets begin with things that seem factual, and go from there. -- ThaThinker 05:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Unless people have some favorites, which might seem pov, I suggest working our way down the page from top to bottom. SkeenaR 05:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll check for junk like self references first. That didn't take long. SkeenaR 05:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There are no self references allowed as per policy. Being the big bug on policy I thought you knew that. SkeenaR 05:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
And if some of us check for mistakes like that while others look for refrences, we will speed the process of improving this article. SkeenaR 05:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I hate to break it to you, but there were three citations for that statement.-- DCAnderson 05:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
That's cool DC, we can add stuff later if we need to. We should check for sources and remove garbage in the meantime. I hope your sudden removal of that other piece wasn't some kind of retaliation. I'm assuming good faith. SkeenaR 05:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to make this an excercise in pedanticism, but I was cited myself for a violation by providing a link exactly like what you just did in a different article. What is the difference between a self-refrence and a fixed internal link? SkeenaR 06:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Take it easy man, I just remember somebody said we can't use wikipedia as a self reference and I think they are right. If I was making a mistake in this case, that's not a problem, I just wanted some clarification on that. SkeenaR 06:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I see what you mean. You were right. SkeenaR 06:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This talk page should be archived soon because it is becoming too long. -- Huysman talk| contribs 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
goes up. As per discussion the neutrality of this article is disputed because of some unverified facts being presented as verified and because of ommisions of verifiable material that is in contradiction with some information presented here. SkeenaR 06:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Or I'll take it down. Let's try for progress first. SkeenaR 06:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
You removed all this detail, with refs, along with my (okay, it was lengthy essaying, just striving for balance) explanation, etc. But I think it's pretty important, since this 9/11 start page has virtually nothing about the guys who actually did it. Maybe the blockquote can go in ref notes, since it's a bit long? Seems a disservice to not even mention the letter in the article. Also, there needs to be something core like this to counter all the wrong western bias about cause and effect (former troops in SA, U.S. support of Israel, etc.) that is so prevalent in the article, but that is just western wishful thinking, that if only we could learn how to appease them enough, they would stop attacking us, you know. The hijackers' letter gives better insight into what is really in their heads about flying planes into buildings, just presented as is, without commentary. So, here it is,
On September 28, 2001, the FBI held a Press Conference, during which they released an untranslated handwritten 4-page "hijackers' letter" written in Arabic and found in three separate copies at Dulles, the Pennsylvania crash site, and in Mohamed Atta's suitcase. It included Islamic prayers, instructions for a last night of life, and a practical checklist of final reminders for the mission. [1] translated: [2] The British newspaper The Observer published this translation, provided for The New York Times by Capital Communications Group, a Washington-based international consulting firm, and by Imad Musa, a translator. The writer of the letter may not be known. But clearly, it was found in multiple locations, and so the text was of importance to at least several of the hijackers, on the last day. Some notable excerpts:
..."Make an oath to die and renew your intentions..."... "Check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. (You must make your knife sharp and must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter). " ... "All of their equipment and gates and technology will not prevent, nor harm, except by God's will. The believers do not fear such things. ..." ... "When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, 'Allahu Akbar,' because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers. God said: 'Strike above the neck, and strike at all of their extremities.' Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, 'Come hither, friend of God.' They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing..." ... "If you slaughter, do not cause the discomfort of those you are killing, because this is one of the practices of the prophet, peace be upon him..." ... "Do not seek revenge for yourself. Strike for God's sake..." ... "Then implement the way of the prophet in taking prisoners. Take prisoners and kill them. As Almighty God said: 'No prophet should have prisoners until he has soaked the land with blood... " ... "How beautiful it is for one to read God's words, such as: 'And those who prefer the afterlife over this world should fight for the sake of God.' And His words: 'Do not suppose that those who are killed for the sake of God are dead; they are alive ... '." ... "Either end your life while praying, seconds before the target, or make your last words: 'There is no God but God, Muhammad is His messenger'."
...end of hijackers' letter excerpts. So, does at least some well-deserved part of this go back in? Steven Russell 08:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It would probably fit into either of these articles:
--
ThaThinker
01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Outline of Proposed Alternative Theories Section:
I. Reports of Foreknowledge Abel Danger - Intelligence program which had identified Mohammed Atta and probable terror cell in Brooklin before 9/11 was blocked from being reported to the FBI. The Pheonix Memo - A document released under the Freedom of Information Act has AZ FBI agent writing report about Osama probable associated persons at flight school, and urgently urges investigation of other flight schools as well Cathleen Rowley - Minneapolis FBI agent reports Moussaoui suspected as terrorist by flight instructor, and wanted by Al Qaeda in Paris, and is ignored. David Schippers - lead councel for Clinton's impeachment, says FBI agents were warning impending attack, and getting ignored. One said the date of the attack was widely known within FBI Henry Waxman - Requested yet other foreknowledge documents from 9/11 Commission, but despite his being on the Government Reform Committee, was denied Sibel Edmunds - Extensive article appeared in Vanity Fair about being gagged with important 9/11 information. (Many others exist, but space prevents all being listed.) II. Background Information Bin Laden at first denies responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. The Pentagon then releases a video with poor resolution in which he seems to confess, except many of the things in the sub-titles are not in original Arabic. Government sources subsequently released an audio only confession by Bin Laden. PNAC document in 2000 suggests "a new Pearl Harbor-like event" might accelerate U.S. plans in the Mideast Condi Rice says "we" had no idea Al-Qaeda might attack by airplanes, despite FAA and other drills for just such a scenario. She later changes this to "I" had no idea they might attack by airplanes, leaving the question of who else knew of these drills open. Link to list of serious questions about 9/11 by the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims III. Peculiar aspects of the attacks The two towers collapsed suddenly, at nearly free-fall speed, one a little under an hour, the other a little over an hour later. By this time, at least one of the fires had subsided enough for people to stand in the gaping hole left by the plane, awaiting rescue. When each building in its time collapsed, each collapsed straight down, causing minimal damage to nearby buildings. Reports of secondary explosions before towers fell in local papers, and in firemen's communications Wreckage removed quickly after underfunded investigation Designer of towers said buidlings were built to withstand impact of one, and could probably survive six impacts of 707's No other structural steel buildings have ever collapsed on account of fire Many of supposed 9/11 attackers reported alive (Future expansion: the flashes of light on WTC1 and WTC2 just before the planes hit) Building Seven also collapses neatly later that day at 4:00PM, almost demolition style, killing workers still in building, reportedly on accout of fire Reports of a white jet and mid-air explosion, when flight 93 reportedly crashed into the ground Two videos of Pentagon attack fail to produce convincing evidence of a Boeing IV. Dissenting government officials, experts and celebreties who have come forward Five former government officials or important appointees have denounced the official story. By way of contrast, Nixon officials went public on Watergate only after intense Congressional investigation. David Bowman - Claims to have been Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the Air Force Space Division until 1978 under Carter and Ford (and no official source has yet repudiated this claim), says concerning new intereptor flight procedures issued just before 9/11 (which newly required administration officials in order to OK not just shoot-downs, but any and all interceptions), if they had only have done nothing, the attacks would never have succeeded. He calls actions that allowed it to happen, treason. Calls Bush a renegade president. Ray McGovern - Former CIA analyst, used to prepare Reagan's and then Bush Sr.'s Presidential Daily Briefs, calls for Bush Jr's resignation over 9/11. Former FBI Director Louis Freeh - 9/11 was "an inside job" Morgan Reynolds - Former cheif economist at Bush Jr.'s Dept. of Labor, recenty resigned, and said he thought 9/11 was an inside job Sgt. Eric Haney - founder of the Army's elite Delta Force unit, says "The reasons of this administration for taking this nation to war were not what they stated." Leon Minetta - Places Cheney at control center of the Pentagon when plane hit, contradicting Cheney's own account Russ Whittenberg - Former Air Force and airline pilot, says Pentagon maneuver impossible for an inexperienced pilot Sampling of celebreties who have denounced the official account of 9/11 - Charlie Sheen, Ed Asner, Sharon Stone, Ed Beagley (of St. Elsewhere), James Woods (117 major film credits), and Dean Haglund (the X-Files).
Even if an item has been debunked, that does not justify censoring it. Things which tend to debunk it can be listed in this section as well. This should allow this article to include opinions of a significant minority who does not feel that most of these items have been debunked. Whether many of them are right or not, we feel we cannot know until a more thorough investigation is completed. -- ThaThinker 20:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears that many things that are there, do not belong there. For example, whether Abel Danger comes out to be true or not, ultimately, we have people that said it. It is in the Congressional Record. It's a matter of public knowledge. I don't think a definitive investigation has ever been completed, nor has it been satisfactorilly been debunked. If so, tell me where. It certainly does not belong on a page only for debunked theories, at least as yet. No lies, at least on my part anyway, but that was a mistake. My apologies to David Duchovny. These are the things that MUST be included, or this article is BAD POV. Why do you fear having lies and falsehoods here, if it is a significant point of view, and the information that debunks it is here? I was being generous. I maintain that you can't debunk that, e.g. Charlie Sheen or these other people denounced the official story, because even mainstream press says thay did. What is it issue is whether they are right, and I say, lets present the facts, and let the people decide for themselves. Why are you afraid of telling both sides of the story? -- ThaThinker 21:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Ryan did not certify steel for UL....he tested water quality. Robert(not david) Bowman did not direct Star Wars. He directed some little program prior to Star Wars with no direct link. Morgan Reynolds was an economist at the Bureau of Labor, not the "head". The fires at WTC were not "under control" ... practically nothing was done about the fires and I doubt the firefighters even reached it before the word came to get out. Designer of towers said they would withstand "one" 707, a smaller plane. No workers in WTC 7 when it collapsed. I could go on and on. The rest is heresay and speculation
You apparently aren't in the same reality I'm in. -- Mmx1 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is good. Lets update my outline with corrected versions of these events, and get such facts as remain standing, up. I want to be disabused of any illusions. This does not entirely exempt Bowman's expertise, as I know I heard him claim to be an interceptor pilot, and he knew what the proceedures used to be, and what they were changed to. -- ThaThinker 21:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
When Bowman was a pilot....Kennedy was President, bell-bottoms were in fashion, and a computer took up a room. He has been retired for 30 years and has not worked in the defense sphere. It's a stretch to say he knows what the current procedures are. He also has a credibility problem, as half the medals he claims to have won don't exist, and he has been caught lying about his SAME medals. -- Mmx1 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are some of the statements from your outline and my opinions on them: "PNAC document suggests "a new Pearl Harbor-like event might accelerate U.S. plans in the Mideast"
"Bin Laden at first denies responsibility for the 9/11 attacks."
"a video with poor resolution in which he seems to confess, except many of the things in the sub-titles are not in original Arabic."
"Link to list of serious questions about 9/11 by the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims"
Most of the things regarding the WTC under section III are mischarecterizations from Steven E. Jones. He is most definitely a fringe minority, and he is discussed in other articles. His theories allready do get a one sentence mention in this article.
"Reports of a white jet and mid-air explosion, when flight 93 (?) reportedly crashed into the ground"
Most of the celebrities are not worth mentioning, as they are not really experts on anything.-- DCAnderson 22:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The wikipedia article on Bowman says: "former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force in the Ford and Carter administrations". Director. The Wikipedia page on Bowman says nothing about these non-existent medals, only listing ones he received. The idea that the "new Pearl Harbor" statement refers to 9/11 is NOT original with me. The idea that the the first confession video is of dubious quality is NOT original with me. Overseas papers ran a story on how a number of the phrases the Pentagon said were there, in the subtitles, were not there. I haven't run across Stephen E. Jones, and I've seen a lot of these ideas MANY places. If I found a flake that supported the official version, should we dismiss it? I'll have to study some more to come to my own conclusion on Ryan's expertise, but we might could replace that with a better item. Eric Haney, founder of the Army's elite Delta Force unit, who says the war on terrorism is bogus would be a good substitute. At first, I thought there was a relevency problem, but then again, the War on Terror began with the 9/11 attacks. A number of the items on the "9/11 conspiracy theories" DO seem factual, whether their claims can ultimately be verified or will be refuted. If that is a page for debunked items, the best of them need representation here. Also, mention of what appear to be squibs was left of my outline. It is really presented for other 9/11 skeptics and 9/11 skeptic debunkers as a starting point for fixing this page's POV problem. The whole section need not be that long, as most items need only a sentence or two. Then, I think most 9/11 skeptics will agree, the "9/11 Conspiracy Theories" page has a POV title, and should somehow be subsumed as a sub-page of Alternate Theories, and/or a new Debunked Theories and Hypotheses page. We should have mention of the cream of the crop items on this page, where they haven't been debunked. Although celebreties are not experts, we still think it is important for the public to know that many are coming forward. Can better items be found, and some of these ideas debunked? Probably. Are there better points that could be brought out, which should get precidence over some here? Probably. Yet, most of them remain viable, at the end of the day, and are being censored, against Wikipedia policy, from this page. -- ThaThinker 23:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not true that they are not verifiable. They are. People have built scale model mockups of the floor sections of the WTC, to see if they can be burned by flames. Much of this stuff IS verifiable, if 9/11 terrorists here in the US if FBI agents had already been reported to superiors. Nice try. Invalid agrument for exclusion. It IS verifiable if various people denounced the official theory. -- ThaThinker 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
As stated above, this article neees to get WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY back to basics, WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW. Just basic irrefutable facts, highly mainstream, highly verifiable and highly reputable. So I propose a major split: Essentially the entire bottom half of this article deals with almost extraneous ideas that spring off of the attack itself. The attack is the attack, nothing more, as the home page here for this whole thing. This should be the place where people go on Wikipedia to get the very basics, and nothing more. So my proposal for the split of all the bottom half extraneous material that is currently there: It all sticks together cohesively as "Ramifications of 9-11." Everything from cleanups, speeches, wars on terror, conspiracy theories, backstories, further agendas, world opinions, and on and on and on in a neverending series of subarticles. But just keep this basic page to the fundamental five W's, and the H. Feedback, please. Steven Russell 03:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Context IS important. WWII is not just the battles, but also the causes, and a huge section on the aftermath. Some pages like the Organizers of the September 11, 2001 attacks should be better linked, but the current division of content is appropriate.-- Mmx1 03:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I could see that, but not excluding the opinions of a signficiant minority to the extent that they are treated as a tiny minority on this page. It really comes off sounding one-sided. -- ThaThinker 05:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been running an analysis of the claims made by Professor Steven Jones', Professor of Physics at BYU and former principle scientist for Muon catalysed fusion with the US Department of Energy.
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
By Steven E. Jones, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University,
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
This paper has multiple peer-reviews and no one, as yet, has been able to come close to debunking the material, nor been able to approach it at a scientific level. It can be a difficult read, as the implications of the numerous scientific claims are not apparent to the layman or casual observer.
The bottom line is that solid scientific material exists, that suggests either an alternative scenario, or a hidden scenario under the guise of the attacks.
This must be covered for accuracy and balance.
Of course the material has been debunked. Steven Jones raises 13 points; here are the problems with them:
1. Equally valid observation for both catastrophic failure and controlled demolition
2. WTC 7, not relevant to WTC 1 and WTC 2.
3. Same as (1).
4. Fact about unrelated circumstances.
5. Observation consistent with catastrophic failure and not controlled demolition
6. Same as (1).
7. Same as (1).
8. Same as (1).
9. Same as (5).
10. Same as (5).
11. Based on flawed assumption.
12. Objection to NIST procedure, unrelated to actual tower collapse.
13. Same as (12).
1. Equally valid observation for both catastrophic failure and controlled demolition
2. WTC 7, not relevant to WTC 1 and WTC 2.
3. Same as (1).
4. Fact about unrelated circumstances.
5. Observation consistent with catastrophic failure and not controlled demolition
6. Same as (1).
7. Same as (1).
8. Same as (1).
9. Same as (5).
10. Same as (5).
11. Based on flawed assumption.
12. Objection to NIST procedure, unrelated to actual tower collapse.
13. Same as (12).
I would also point out that the paper makes the claim The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.... -- this is made as a statement of faith, without evidence, so the objectivity of the whole paper comes into question. Peter Grey 20:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
24.106.90.250 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
An expert within civilized society won't use vocabulary like "nuts, idiot moron, quacks" etc. Now your other possible arguments which have not been even presented here lost any viability. Thank you for supporting (unconsciously) the honest documentation of the 9/11 events. PS in a just and fair dialogue supporting community your IP address would be banned immediately and not allowed here but we know who controls and spins all political articles on Wikipedia, so you are about to stay..
I notice the damage total is not mentioned on the article. I've read a few sources that said it was in the $20 billion range. Provided someone finds an exact, official link, I think something like that would be an important little fact for the article. Hurricanehink ( talk) 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous IP added "It is important to note that the US government has supported, trained, and sold arms to al-Qaeda in the past. In fact, the US put al-Qaeda into power." As that would be a horribly a very strong and dangerous comment to make without prior discussion, especially amid controversy, I removed it back the version of the article prior. Kevin_b_er 05:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Something along those lines could go in, as long as there was a good source for it. But it wouldn't, even if we had an affadavit from the government that said so. SkeenaR 06:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The USG did not arm or train al-Qaeda. It armed and trained the Muhjahadeen, specifically to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan; and the Muhjahadeen gave birth to al-Qaeda only after the Cold War ended and jihad to create a fundamentalist Islamic super state replaced jihad to evict the Russians. It may be ironic that al-Qaeda grew up to bite the hand that once fed it, and the whole affair may display a lack of foresight on the pasrt of 80's policymakers; but that hardly supports the anonymous IP's obvious implication that the US knowingly created the terorist organization. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and boy does this talk page prove it! TexxasFinn 10:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The title should read "September 11, 2001, attacks." The year is parenthetical. It should be set off by two commas, not just one.
66.146.211.71 06:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
By "parenthetical," I did not mean that the year was unimportant or not "integral." The year in the American style is parenthetical in the same way that "Illinois" is parenthetical in "I have lived in Chicago, Illinois, for ten years" or the way that "our first president" is parenthetical in "George Washington, our first president, was very popular after the revolution." There's no negative connotation.
It's a common mistake to use only one comma, but it is a mistake nonetheless. It looks like you're joining two clauses with a comma but no conjunction. In other words, in the sentence "The September 11, 2001 attacks were devastating," it looks like you're trying to make an independent clause out of "2001 attacks were devastating." It doesn't make any sense. 65.107.70.253 19:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following addendum: "The attacks were carried out on a Tuesday--a weekday. As such, most schools and workplaces allowed students and workers to witness the television coverage throughout the day." Also mention something about many students wishing to make telephone calls to relatives, and schools allowing this. 18.243.6.65 07:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Ninjagecko (high school student during the attacks)
I do not understand why the following two sentences begin the fatality section: "One fatality was US-Israeli multi-millionaire Daniel Lewin, an influential figure in the development of the internet and a former member of an elite Israeli anti-terrorist unit. Also aboard Flight 11 the captain, John Ogonowski, is said to have been killed by terrorists before the impact."
It seems to me that the section should immediately emphasize the number of deaths. Pointing out a wealthy individual and how one particular victim was killed seems to undermine that goal; furthermore, it most likely will leave out other influential people. The safe thing could be to emphasize the number of fatalities and their location at the time of their death. Placing two people at the beginning of the section seems to lessen that emphasis. Smackme 20:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
His declaration of a holy war against the United States,[citation needed]
cite Osama bin Laden, “Declaration of War” issued 23AUG1996 [ [19]]
There is a secondary source on PBS.org in the talk page of the wikisource page. 70.134.88.250 05:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Can we please add something along the lines of:
"Despite the US government citing that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks, the FBI have stated that there is no hard evidence connecting him to the attacks. The official FBI 'most wanted' site does not state that Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the 9/11 attacks."
This is very important I think.
Close examination of the videos (I saw it at 1 frame per second) shows quite clearly that a missile was launched from the second plane and suggests that one was launched from the first, both a split second before the actual crash. This was probably to ensure destruction. Slowing down of other footage shows an extra piece of equipment underneath US Flight 175 shortly before impact into the South Tower. This means that somehow, the terrorists had planned in advance and attached these missiles to the airplanes without detection by authorities. It is also possible that they were allowed to, but all we know for certain is that a flash occured between Flight 11 and the North Tower before it crashed and a missile was launched in a similar flash (from a pod attached to the underside of US Flight 175) into the South Tower a split second before the 2nd crash.
Boeing, the manufacturer, when questioned about the extra part on Flight 175, totally refused questions of it, simply saying that the nation's security was at stake.
This can be proven by slowing certain cameras' views of the 2nd crash down enough, and close examination of the 1st crash.
This is very relevant information, and unquestionable fact, so why not add it somewhere in the article?
205.188.116.73 22:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
No, No, don't you get it? The terrorists didn't smuggle the missiles, it's the US Government that did it; the same government that killed JFK, Marilyn Monroe, orchestrated a fake moon landing, and created 'new coke.' Jeez, are you dense.... TexxasFinn 10:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I am a civil engineer with decades of experience designing structures, including skyscrapers. I am sick and tired of [editors] on this page pushing conspiracy theories with no basis in reality. I will comment only on the WTC collapses, as I am an expert. Listen up.
1. Fires absolutely can cause a steel framed skyscraper to collapse. I have seen it with my own eyes. It has happened many times before. We could build them stronger, but they would be more expensive, and less spacious.
2. A collapse such as the 2 that occured on 9/11 can indeed produce molten steel. What happens when you bend a piece of wire? It gets hot. Multiply that by about 500,000 and you can understand that the tremendous mass above the failure point will have more than enough energy to melt steel. I'm surprised there wasn't more molten steel at ground zero.
3. Much has been said about the concrete turning into powder. For god's sake, this lightweight concrete we use is powder and glue, that's it. Drop a chunk of this stuff 10 feet and it will turn to powder, just like that. The concrete in the twin towers fell an average of over 500 hundred feet before it hit the ground. What do you expect would happen?
And so on.
In case any of you [editors] didn't notice, FEMA studied the collapses. That should have been enough, but just to [completely convince everyone], we went and had NIST study it some more. NIST has stated that there is NO EVIDENCE of a controlled demolition. Why would they say such a thing if it wasn't true? This is a democracy, not some third world [country]. Frankly, these fine men and women have much more important things to do than respond to nonsense. Our country is in grave danger until we stamp out terrorism world-wide. We should not spend any more time and resources studying the collapses.
If any of you have specific questions about structure, I am more than happy to answer. I am on board now, please leave the technical aspects of 9/11 related articles to those of us who are qualified to edit them.
[Warmest regards,]
EngineerEd 00:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it OK if I add a mention in the article about how common it is for steel framed structures to collapse from fire? For some reason I can't edit the article. Is this because I'm new? I'd like to edit the collapse article too, but that seems blocked also. Maybe it's just my browser.
EngineerEd 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
For starters, this passage:
There has been much speculation on the "performance" of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and the relevant U.S. government agencies.
Should be changed to something like this:
The cause of the Twin Towers collapses is a well understood, common phenomenon. It is called "global progressive collapse", which has, unfortunately, been observed many times before. The studies by FEMA and NIST have confirmed this, and "debate" continues only amongst non-professionals.
74.128.44.60 04:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Steven Jones' paper is notable as a pop culture phenomenon, and can be mentioned on the appropriate article. The demolition conjecture essentially comes down to an Internet hoax in bad taste. NPOV does not mean putting reality and fantasy on an equal footing. I would like to throw out the following challenge to the believers in demolition: All the alleged "evidence" is something like 'Such-and-such observation looks like a controlled demolition'. Find us one valid example of form 'Such-and-such observation looks like a controlled demolition, and it does not look like a catastrophic structural failure'. Peter Grey 04:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The best source for information on progressive collapse relevant to this article is the NIST report. All you need is in there.
Steven Jones is a theoretical physicist. I think he is an excellent source for the latest musings about alternate dimensions, or time travel. As for the real world, you need to talk to an engineer. Engineers are about making things work in the real world. I have read the Jones paper, and it is just a bunch of nonsense. As I have stated before, there is nothing unusual about pools of molten metal at a disaster site.
We had a tower collapse in Houston Texas in 1992. This was the Fuji tower, 56 stories, which was about 90% complete, when a crane operator (who was on drugs) began operation before his platform was secure, the crane fell over, and triggered a total progressive collapse. I personally saw a pool of molten metal at the site when I came with the insurance investigator.
The collapses of the twin towers did not look like a controlled demolition, if you know what you are looking for. For one thing, the towers EX-ploded, whereas a controlled demolition is an IM-plosion.
EngineerEd 19:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
And a reference for the molten metal just to be fair. SkeenaR 10:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if there is anything on the web about it, but look, I was there. The point is that progressive collapse happens. I wish it didn't, but it does. There was another one in Mexico City that was caused by a fire. True, this fire burned for about 8 hours, and was a different type of design than the twin towers. This building was desinged by the Mexicans and was essentially held up by a series of intersecting arches, getting smaller and smaller as it went up. It was called the Arcos Rincon, very beautiful and innovative. Completely collapsed on one side, and turned to dust.
The point is, this is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. There are plenty of places for people to speculate about conspiracy theories. It is time to stop disgracing the honor of the people who were murdered on 911. Allowing the conspiracy nuts to have any say in this article is a disgrace, a shame. There ought to be something that the honest editors can do about it.
Can't these conspiracy theorists be stopped, or blocked, or shut down? What's more important, letting "everyone" edit these 911 aritlces, or getting it right? I think that getting the facts straight is more important.
24.106.90.250
07:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you can have this article to yourself and then you can fill it with insults, tell everybody how smart you are, and use really dirty emotional propaganda. SkeenaR 10:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Ed made up the stuff about the Fuji Tower and Arcos Rincon. There are no historical examples of "global progressive collapse", or molten metal from a building collapse. EngineerEd is a fake. I'll stake my reputation on it. Ed, I challenge you to provide any substantiation for anything you have said.
I think it is interesting how Morton and Toiyabe are so eager to be "allies" with an obvious fake. TruthSeeker1234 03:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think you could be right. SkeenaR 10:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The official story is a conspiracy theory, one with very little in the way of facts to support it. How and why do 19 Arabs board 4 planes without tickets, for example?
"Engineer Ed" has offered nothing in the way of documentation. He's a fake, I promise. I find nothing at all about either Fuji Tower or Arcos Rincon. It's BS. Ed, you on tonight? Come on. In the meantime, there are reliable mainstream sources (NY Times, FEMA) that have reported molten metal and partially evaportated metal, and very high temperatures achieved. This is interesting stuff, and ought to go in some article somewhere.
Have you heard the latest? Steven Jones has analyzed some samples of WTC slag, it's iron with high concentrations of sulfer, such as what would be produced from thermate. This is consistent with the FEMA metalurgical study which showed the "swiss cheese" appearance of the metal, the "rapid oxidation" and the sulfer content.
Meanwhile the NY Times author Glanz has changed the title of his infamous article from
ENGINEERS ARE BAFFLED OVER THE COLLAPSE OF 7 WTC
"STEEL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN PARTLY EVAPORATED"
to
Engineers Have a Culprit in the Strange Collapse of 7 World Trade Center: Diesel Fuel TruthSeeker1234 06:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
CNN published the flight manifests from all four 9/11 flights a few days after the attacks. There are no Arab names at all. Does MONGO or anyone have any reliable source showing Arab names on any flight manifests? 69.236.23.7 15:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Not millions, but thousands upon thousands of paid scribes, yes. Does that really need explaining? (nice pic!) SkeenaR 10:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
All the 'evidence' cited demonstrates either a fire or a structural failure, both of which are on film and, I hope, undisputed. There is nothing that suggests demolition. Peter Grey 18:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone said, "It is time to stop disgracing the honor of the people who were murdered on 911." I certainly agree with this statement. SO DO SOME OF THE 911 FAMILIES:
Doesnt that quote say the exact opposite of what you are saying? The widow says the conspiracy investigators cared more than the official investigators, and says it is their right to look for the truth. I agree. Fritzz44 09:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Additional unusual behaviors observed for WTC2 included the correlated smoke puffs observed over large areas of the façade and over the roughly one-minute periods during which the smoke flows increased DRAMATICALLY, often accompanied by external flames. These events were usually most evident on the 79th and 80th floors of the east face, but could often be detected on other floors and faces as well. At least 65 occurrences of smoke puffs were documented along with 7 times when the one-minute long smoke releases took place. The evidence suggests that these smoke puffs resulted from PRESSURE PULSES generated within the tower and transmitted to other locations. It is considered likely while these pressure pulses were of sufficient magnitude to affect smoke flows over multiple floors, they were much too small to affect the tower's structural components. For most of the smoke puffs, there was no visual indication of the event that generated the pressure pulse or its location. In a few cases, such as when WHEN MOLTEN METAL POURED from the tower, circumstantial evidence indicated that the puffs WERE ASSOCIATED with specific observed events. - NIST NCSTAR 1-5, WTC Investigation (p.p.36-38)
The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an INTRIGUING event at 9:37:04 a.m. A jet of air, dust, and A LARGE PIECE OF DEBRIS WAS EJECTED from a window, 77-355, on the 77th floor at AN EXTREMELY HIGH VELOCITY. Longer distance videos show that puffs of smoke and/or dust appeared simultaneously on the east face from several open windows near the center of the 78th floor and from open windows on the north side of the 79th floor. Interestingly, the smoke flow from the windows on the west sides of the 79th and 80th floors, which had decreased markedly by this time, did not increase. Within 14s of this release, a large fire either grew or became visible near the center of the east face on the 82nd floor. A long distance video shot from the south showed that fire and smoke were pushed from multiple locations on the south face at the same time the strong jet occurred on the 77th floor of the east face. -NIST NCSTAR 1-5A, WTC Investigation (p. 346)
It has been reported in the FEMA report (McAllister 2002) as well as in the media that what appeared to be MOLTEN METAL WAS OBSERVED POURING from the north face near the northeast corner prior to the collapse of WTC2. This is the area where the sustained fires on the 81st and 82nd had been burning since the aircraft impact. The likely explanation for the observation of pouring liquid is that the material had originally pooled on the floor slab above, i.e., the 81st floor, and that it was allowed to pour out of the building when the floor slab in the immediate vicinity either pulled away from the spandrel or sank down to the point where the window was exposed. The puff of smoke and/or dust just prior to the release of the material occurred suddenly, in the process creating a PRESSURE PULSE that forced smoke and/or dust out of open windows over three floors.[...]
There was another release of smoke and/or dust from near the east edge of the north face at 9:52:38 a.m. Immediately afterward, the spot near the top of window 80-255 brightened considerably. At 9:52:47 a.m. a series of three much LARGER PRESSURE PULSES, which took place over 35s, pushed smoke and/or dust from several locations on multiple floors of the north face. These locations included those described above, the two areas on the north side of the 83rd floor where fires were burning, the vicinity of the pile of debris near the center of the 79th floor, an area of newly observed fire on the 79th floor near windows 79-209 to 79-213, and the opening of the northeast corner of the 81st floor. The fire burning near the center of the 79th floor flared up noticeably. Immediately following one of the pressure pulses (at 9:52:48 a.m.) intense flames suddenly reappeared in windows 91-301 and 81-302 on the east face just to the south of the northeast corner of the 81st floor. At roughly the same time, part of the debris lodged at the northeast corner of the 81st floor fell out of the opening. Relatively small amounts of MOLTEN MATERIAL POURED from window 80-255 NEAR THE START AND THE END OF THE series of PRESSURE PULSES. Videos show that smoke was also expelled from windows near the north edges of the 79th and 80th floors of the east face during these pressure pulses. NISTNCSTAR 1-5A Chapter 9 Appendix C p.p. 375-376 (pdf p.p. 79-89)
At 9:53:41 a.m. and 9:53:46 a.m. two pressure pulses forced additional smoke from windows on the north face. Both of these occurrences were ACCOMPANIED BY SHORT FLOWS OF MOLTEN MATERIAL from the same window, 80-255, on the 80th floor observed earlier. The largest flow occurred during the second release. Figure 9-75 shows a view of the northeast corner of WTC2 taken from a video at 9:53:51 a.m. The BRIGHT MOLTEN STREAM flowing from the top of windows 80-255 IS PROMINENT.
An image of the north face taken at 9:55:18 a.m. is shown in Figure 9-76. The image was shot 1 min 45s after the one shown in Figure 9-74. The fire distributions are very similar in the two photographs, with the exception of the fire on the 82nd floor to the right of the cold spot in Figure 9-76. As discussed above, the fire was first observed at 9:53:47 a.m. burning in windows 82-234 to 82-337. At 9:55:18 a.m. flames were visible in windows 82-231 to 82-236, and flames were coming out of windows 82-233. The bright spot at the top of window 80-255 is visible on the 80th floor, but there is no obvious molten liquid flow at this time. Unlike in the earlier photograph, fire is now visible in the adjacent window, 80-256. During the next several minutes, following the two pressure pulses around 9:53:45 a.m., numerous pressure pulses were noted that pushed smoke from open windows on the north and east faces of WTC2.
A particularly STRONG PRESSURE PULSE started at 9:56:11 a.m. It lasted nearly 10s. This particular pulse was strong enough to push flames from the tower at many locations. Following a pressure pulse at 9:56:31 a.m., the flames present on the 81st floor in the northeast corner opening and nearby flames on the north face abruptly died down. The large flame in window 81-301 on the east face also declined within 2s. All of these flames reappeared after a few seconds. At 9:57:21 a.m., shortly after another pressure pulse, the BRIGHT LIGHT reappeared at the top window, 80-255, on the 80th floor from which the FLOW OF MOLTEN METAL had been observed earlier. Almost immediately, it appeared to jump one window to the east, i.e., to window 80-256. Five seconds later a LIGHT FLOW OF MOLTEN METAL began pouring out of window 80-256. THE FLOW OF MATERIAL from this window WOULD NOW BE NEARLY CONTINUOUS UNTIL THE TOWER COLLAPSED. At 9:57:32 a.m. there was a fairly intense pressure pulse within the tower. THE FLOW RATE OF THE MOLTEN METAL INCREASED DRAMATICALLY at this time. p. 383 (pdf p. 87)
Figure 9-77 is a frame from a video that was shot at 9:57:45 a.m. It shows the falling metal as it was approaching the ground. THE LARGE AMOUNT of falling material IS EVIDENT. Most of the molten metal seems to have broken up into small "droplets," but there are a couple of large pieces falling as well. Apparently, the material flowing out of window 80-256 also included pieces of debris that had not fully melted. There was another HEAVY FLOW OF MOLTEN METAL at 9:58:35 a.m. p.384 (pdf p. 88)
Numerous visual observations suggest that IMPORTANT CHANGES, which might have had STRUCTURAL RELEVANCE, were taking place in WTC2 in the period following aircraft impact until collapse. These observations include hanging objects, some of which, based on appearance, may have been locally dislodged floor slabs that had settled down to locations below the spandrel, at several locations on the north and east faces, changes in positions of the hanging objects during the period, the occurrence of numerous PRESSURE PULSES identified by smoke and/or dust puffs generated over multiple windows and floors, the appearance of MOLTEN METAL pouring from the tops of open windows, and bowing of outer steel framework. p.412(pdf 116) http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
"THERMAL IMAGERY OF THE PROGRESSION OF MOLTEN STEEL HOTSPOTS from September 18 to September 25" GeoNews, October, 2001 http://web.gc.cuny.edu/ees/october2001.pdf 58.106.68.81 09:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, MONGO, we would like to add mention of the MOLTEN METAL. You and others have repeatedly denied the existance of molten metal at WTC, and have used every excuse in the book to keep it out. MONGO, why don't you give us a promise not to remove mention of MOLTEN METAL TruthSeeker1234 17:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's see. We have FEMA, NIST, the NY Times, Structural Enginneer and various experts ALL saying there was molten metal. We have photographs and videos of molten metal. We have metalurgical reports. Yet MONGO says there was no molten metal. What exactly is your reputable source for no molten metal MONGO? Please, link us. TruthSeeker1234 20:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Digiterata, add something to the Collapse of the World Trade Center. I've got your back. MONGO and co will revert war, I'm sure. Let's just try and improve the article, make it NPOV, with verifiable reputable sources, and see how it goes. TruthSeeker1234 21:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
1 - Recovery worker reflects on months spent at Ground Zero Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service May 29, 2002 [...] When [Joe] O'Toole signed on for trade center duty in January, he thought it would be a 30-day assignment. But after one month, he volunteered for another. And another. And another. And another. [...] Underground fires raged for months. O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was DRIPPING FROM THE MOLTEN STEEL," he said. -cache http://www.911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/messengerinquirer_recoveryworker.html
2 [...] A veteran of disasters from the Mississippi floods Mt. St. Helens, [Ron] Burger said it reminded him most of the volcano, if he forgot he was in downtown Manhattan. "Feeling the heat, SEEING THE MOLTEN STEEL, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s and the thousands who fled that disaster," he said. "It could have been a tornado or an avalanche or a volcano." Ground Zero was a disaster site like no other—with hazards everywhere. Shards of steel lay upon shards of steel, shifting and unstable, uncovering RED HOT METAL BEAMS excavated from deep beneath layers of sub-floors, exposing further dark crevasses. http://www.neha.org/9-11%20report/index-The.html
3 Ironworkers' Job of Clearing Ground Zero Is Over, but the Trauma Lingers By COREY KILGANNON November 11, 2002 [...] The four men sat on a sunny sidewalk in Greenwich Village on a recent workday and ate their lunch staring at the steel skeleton of a building going up on West Third Street. One of them commented on how much easier it was to eat a sandwich in front of steel that was strong and straight and new, not molten and mangled and laden with debris. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D00E7DE1331F932A25752C1A9649C8B63
4 Reflections in the Wake of September 11: Visit to Ground Zero, New York City by Father Edward A. Malloy, CSC [...] Eddie and I walked down into the depths of the South Tower, Building Two, which was the first to collapse. Large front end loaders were engaged in their task. Gigantic cranes were lifting pieces of steel weighing tons, some of which were being placed on the back of semi trucks. Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500 F. so that WHEN STEEL IS BROUGHT UP IT IS MOLTEN and takes two or three days to cool down. http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/reflect/malloydiary.html
5 RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was RED-HOT, MOLTEN, RUNNING. PBS, September 2002 http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_debris_06.html
6 TWO WEEKS AT GROUND ZERO By Guy Lounsbury [...] My particular part was to help maintain security in and around the perimeter of the site. [...] Two weeks after the attack, one fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers’ remains. home.nycap.rr.com http://home.nycap.rr.com/geljal/Documents/TWO%20WEEKS%20AT%20GROUND%20ZERO.htm
7 At Ground Zero NIH'ers Respond to Tragedy in NYC By Rich McManus Photos by Van Hubbard, Susan Orsega, Rich McManus [...] Ed Pfister's Diary: [...] I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and BOILED WITH MOLTEN MATERIAL. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above. http://www.nih.gov/news/NIH-Record/10_30_2001/story01.htm
8 Reluctant hero narrates horror of N.Y. mission September 11, 2002 [...] Interim Bryan Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho was one of those sent to "ground zero," as the World Trade Center site quickly became known. [...] Here is Donoho’s story, as told to Eagle staff writer John LeBas: [...] What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MOLTEN STEEL and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. We dug and we dug and we dug, and we cut and we cut and we cut, and we did not see anything that resembled any type of furniture, any type of personal belongings. We found some pieces of things like a telephone, things like that. I think we found credit cards a few times, and we found a couple of stuffed animals. But you would expect to see, like, a bunch of desks, a bunch of chairs. The only way I can explain it is, if you take a car and put it in one of those machines where they crush it and make it look like a cube, and you can’t recognize what it is, that’s what the whole area looked like. It looked like A MASSIVE MOLTEN MESS THAT HAD BEEN FUSED TOGETHER, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A LOT of what we were walking on was JUST MOLTEN STEEL. http://www.theeagle.com/septanniv/091102firefighter.htm
9 MAGIC@GROUND ZERO by Ben Robinson edited by David Groves October 17, 2001 On October 4, I was called to do an indoor street performance by the New York City police department. [...]One cop wore an ill-fitting pair of sweat pants and a Grateful Dead T shirt. His "house shoes" would have been rejected by Phyllis Diller. Turns out, after someone works at Ground Zero, their clothes are trashed, and they put on these interim clothes that are piling up in donations. The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal and jet fuel. The health hazards are everywhere: the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies. And, I'm working for these brave souls http://www.illusiongenius.com/11-01.html
10 It is 4 a.m. in New York City as four researchers from the School enter the site of the World Trade Center disaster on foot. Each is lugging from 50 to 90 pounds of air-monitoring equipment onto Ground Zero. In the dark, the tangled pile of wreckage takes on a distinctly hellish cast. "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." John Hopkins Public Health, Late Fall 2001 Magazine http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm
11 They came to help at Ground Zero. What they experienced they can't forget By Marci McDonald [...] Lee Turner, a bewhiskered paramedic, leads a tour with a mix of pride and disdain. For six years, he helped build it, corralling old culvert pipe, rusted refrigerators, and even a wrecked school bus. For six years, he and 185 other members of a federal urban search and rescue squad known as Missouri Task Force 1 (MO-TF1) had trained on it, unpaid, waiting for the call to be deployed. [...] In the predawn darkness of September 12, barely 18 hours after MO-TF1 got the order for its first deployment, he jumped off an Army truck at the World Trade Center site and stared at a smoldering rubblescape that stretched as far as he could see. "There was nothing but acre after acre of twisted steel and this sticky white dust," he recalls. "We'd never seen anything like it." [...] Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–MOLTEN METAL DRIPPING from a beam–but found no signs of life. usnews http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911memories.htm
12 Red Hot Debris. The removal of debris from the collapsed area requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the wreckage are STILL RED-HOT MORE THAN 7 WEEKS AFTER the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. http://www.liro.com/lironews.pdf (app. 1.4meg - includes photo of red-hot beam) 58.106.69.176 12:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The webstite by Schneibster that you refer to proposes a whacky and unofficial gravity pylon driver meltdown theory that doesn't work, and another whacky rubble-foundry explanation exploiting a fantastical 13psf per-floor in combustibles - THREE TIMES NISTs OFFICIAL PER-FLOOR COMBUSSTILBE FUEL LOAD ESTIMATE! The author of the already debunked webpage refuses to acknowlege the official figure. I hope you don't suffer from the same blindsight: "From the floor plans and the combustibility data, it was estimated that the fuel load in the WTC tenant spaces was approximately 20 kg/sq m (4 lb/sq ft). Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-5Draft Futhermore, you failed to explain why the molten metal should not be included in the article HERE: instead, you produced an irrelevant distraction. 58.106.69.176 15:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Below is a block of text from the 9/11 Article for review. I was hoping to include a line or two referencing Molton Metal, but it may be more appropriate to re-write. Thoughts? Digiterata 12:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There has been much speculation on the performance of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and relevant U.S. government agencies. The design of the WTC included many basic innovations distinguishing it from all previous skyscrapers and from many built since citation needed. Although the kinetic energy of the jetliner impacts and the resulting fires were unprecedented in the history of building disasters, some engineers strongly believe skyscrapers of more traditional design (such as New York City's Empire State Building and Malaysia's Petronas Towers) would have fared much better under the circumstances, perhaps standing indefinitely. If they are correct, exceptionally tall buildings that share the WTC's major design elements (for example, Chicago's Sears Tower and John Hancock Center) could be considered particularly vulnerable citation needed. 7 World Trade Center collapsed in the late afternoon of September 11. (See [[7 World Trade Center#The Collapse|7 World Trade Center]] for more details).
Regarding, "The design of the WTC included many basic innovations distinguishing it from all previous skyscrapers and from many built since citation needed", could someone please explain what this means and provide a citation? I don't understand.
Regarding the last two sentences beginning with, "Although the kinetic energy.." and "If they are correct.." again we need some citations here supporting these claims. Otherwise we may need to re-write. Suggestions? Digiterata 14:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
After re-reading this passage, it came to my attention that it might make sense to begin with the factual details of the collapse. Specifically:
9/11 Chronology of Events: WTC Complex (All times are EDT) 8:45 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 crashes into the north tower of the World Trade Center. 9:03 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 crashes into the south tower of the World Trade Center. 10:05 a.m.: The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, plummeting into the streets below. A massive cloud of dust and debris forms and slowly drifts away from the building. 10:28 a.m.: The north tower of the World Trade Center collapses from the top down as if it were being peeled apart, releasing a tremendous cloud of debris and smoke. 4:10 p.m.: Building 7 of the World Trade Center complex is reported on fire. 5:20 p.m.: Building 7 of the World Trade Center complex collapses. The evacuated building is damaged when the twin towers across the street collapse earlier in the day. Other nearby buildings in the area remain ablaze. Source: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/chronology.attack/
Suggested Text - Feel free to be bold and make changes or suggestions here:
Three buildings in the World Trade Center Complex collapsed due to structural failure on the day of the attack. The south tower (WTC 2) fell at approximately 10:05am, after burning for 58 minutes in a fire caused by the impact of United Airlines Flight 175 at 9:03am. The north tower (WTC 1) fell at 10:28am, after burning approximately 103 minutes in a fire caused by the impact of American Airlines Flight 11 at 8:45am. A third building (WTC 7) also collapsed at 5:30pm, after burning for at least 70 minutes and being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers a short distance away. There has been much speculation on the performance of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and relevant U.S. government agencies.
Here is a start, please speak up! Would like to know if this passage is acceptable so far? Digiterata 21:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Please respond here if you would like to comment on this inclusion. Digiterata 22:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Per discussion above, this is a placeholder to gather the thoughts of the community of contributors and readers of the 9/11 Talk page on the subject of including reference to Molten Metal found in the debris of ground zero after the attacks of 9/11. Please Be Bold! and share your thoughts. Peace. Digiterata 00:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
But hey, Peter, if you want to join us and put molten metal in the article, for whatever reason, welcome to the pro-science camp!
TruthSeeker1234 00:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Peter, I'm sorry, but are you trying to sound nonsensical? First off, we're not trying to foist any particular theory of "who did it". We're trying to include mention of the molten metal which is observed, photographed, videotaped, and confirmed in numerous mainstream sources.
The yellow-to-white-hot stuff looks very much like liquid iron or steel, molten aluminum is silvery grey. Yellow-to-white hot is plenty hot enough to be steel or iron. If you have other ideas about what it could be, speak up.
If you are interested in the theory, it would be this: Thermate was used to cut through steel columns at various key points, then high explosives were triggered in sequence, completing the collapse. All of the available evidence is consistent with this scenario. If you have evidence which contradicts this scenario, please bring it. TruthSeeker1234 03:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Come on Peter, try harder. Such vacuous retorts embolden us. TruthSeeker1234 05:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
No confusion needed. The NIST is lying. Remember, the executive branch of the U.S. Federal government is the prime suspect in the alternative theory. It's like asking John Gatti to report on the Mafia. I have stated many times that the NIST is not a reliable source for the collapse of the WTC buildings, because they admit in plain English that they did not study the collapses, only the events leading up to the collapses. FEMA is not reliable because they destroyed the freaking evidence, and are not an investigative agency anyway.
But that's me. Wikipedia is another matter. Consensus here is that NIST and FEMA are reliable sources. So I use them. Now, my conscience forces me to point out falsehoods when I see them. The molten metal cannot be aluminum, because it's the wrong color. It's like the 9/11 commission report, which says that the core of each tower was "a hollow steel shaft". It's just a lie. I don't like lies, because I am a truthseeker. TruthSeeker1234 05:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Correct Peter. As far as the articles go, we're just trying to get verifiable facts in, not the "whodunnit". The rest of the stuff was in response to your questions, which I answered. I have made my views known in the interest of full disclosure, and drawn a clear distinction between what I think (NIST/FEMA are liars when it suits them) and what the consensus of WP editors think (NIST/FEMA is unquestioned gospel).
Despite best efforts at destruction of all evidence, enough hard evidence survives to raise very serious doubts about the entire official story. Yet all the physical evidence is perfectly consistent with controlled demolition. Peter, can you please list one observation which is inconsistent with controlled demoltion? Thank You. TruthSeeker1234 19:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"These exterior walls bore most of the weight of the building.The interior core of the buildings was a hollow steel shaft, in which elevators and stairwells were grouped." [21]. See [22] for amusement.
To understand why the stuff coming out of WTC2 cannot be aluminum, you have to have your thinking hat on. Aluminum melts at about 1220 F. This is dull red-hot, but because of its reflectivity, tends to retain its silver appearance. See [23] In a container, you can heat aluminum up to orange (1725F), even yellow hot. See [24]. You would need a container to do this. If you had a pile of aluminum airplane parts and a hot enough fire, the aluminum would melt when it reached about 1220F, then it would flow away from the heat, long before it was anywhere close to yellow hot.
Aluminum is highly reflective, with low emmissivity, so in daylight it tends to retain its silver color, regardless of the color of light being emmitted.
For these reasons it is highly unlikely that the stuff coming out of the south tower is aluminum.
TruthSeeker1234 16:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Whatever do you mean MONGO? [User:TruthSeeker1234|TruthSeeker1234]] 00:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's take this over to the Collapse of the World Trade Center TruthSeeker1234 04:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
molten metals viscosity for dummies: http://melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/metals_viscosity.gif 58.106.69.176 13:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what a SAT word is - my dictionary lists SAT as the past tense of SIT. You sound like a potty-mouthed, ignorant, juvenile tool, MMX. I suppose a pissing contest by juveniles about the use of words is always better than discussing the ABUNDANCE OF MOLTEN evidence. Good "work", MMX. 58.106.69.176 16:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC) addendum: thank you, doorjam, for your integrity. 58.106.69.176 16:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
It was a typo - if you look carefully, you will see that JAMMER managed to look up the correct typing that I had deployed already. I see that pissing contests about words and typos, rather than THE ABUNDANCE OF MOLTEN METAL AND ITS INCLUSION IN THE MAIN ARTICLE, is your raison d'être, MMX. I also retract my hasty "thanks" to JAMMErR who is doing a fine job as a JAMMER, trying to goad people into discussions about his personal theory of molten metal INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING WHY IT SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED IN THE ARTICLE. 58.106.69.176 16:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
If you want to pretend that aluminum has a new property of low-viscosity when molten, I don't really care - it is not "new research", but a factual and intractable property of the element - http://transp.eng.auth.gr/iatp/Al_Viscosity.pdf - but I don't care if you wish to pretend, I really don't. ALL I CARE is that the FACT that an ABUNDANCE of MOLTEN METAL was CASCADING FROM THE TOWER prior to collapse, and AN EVEN MORE STAGGERING QUANTITY of MOLTEN METAL WAS OBSERVED, PHOTOGRAPHED, REPORTED AND THERMALLY MAPPED at GROUND ZERO. I don't care about the explanation for it - just stop HIDING IT FROM THE PEOPLE.
And if you want to block my IP, JAMMER, for using EXACTLY THE SAME ABUSIVE POTTY-MOUTHED TERMS that are apparently KOSHER FOR MMX to deploy at its leisure, then PLEASE GO AHEAD AND EXPOSE YOUR DOUBLE-STANDARDS TO THE AUDIENCE HERE. Don't send PRIVATE BEHIND-THE-SCENES THREATS. OKAY? Just DO IT - permanently. 58.106.69.176 17:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, but what about the molten steel/iron observed, reported, documented, photographed at ground zero? Please, without the personal attacks, could anyone please explain why it should not go in the article? We have multiple mainstream sources.
TruthSeeker1234 18:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I am unclear on a couple things here. The case for Molton Metal observations at the WTC site has met the test for verifiability with multiple references from reliable sources including both NIST and FEMA as well as numerous mainstream media accounts. But Molten Metal is to be excluded primarily because it "... could possibly be used {by the lunatic fringe conspiracy theorists} as a lever to eventually include speculation that ..." {Subtext Implied by editor}
By that same reasoning, I really ought to remove my earlier factual contribution to The Collapse section of this article [ [25]]. Facts can be dangerous things For example the timeline may be used in future by lunatic conspiracy theorists, or possibly even ordinary rational truthseeking Wikipedians, as a wedge to point out the fact that by all accounts, with the exception of the Fuji Tower and the Archos Ricon, no modern steel reinforced building has EVER collapsed due to fire alone certainly not after burning for little more than an hour. We are still patiently waiting for verifiable confirmation of those from EngineerEd, Morton devonshire, MONGO and the rest of their allies on those or any other buildings which might have fallen in a Global Progressive Collapse,
Tom, Peter and co, please explain exactly what the test is for inclusion here? If I understand correctly, your primary opposition to the inclusion of MOLTEN METAL is that including it might possibly lead to facts that do not support the official account of events entering the article. And your primary rationale for that opposition is that allowing even a single fact that does not support the official account of events into this article, could possibly lead to others? We can meet your tests for Original Research, Secondary Sources, and even Due Weight - but there are certain facts that do meet the test for inclusion which can never meet the test for agreeing with the official account I hope everyone on this page understands the difference and what it means for Wikipedia.
Please clarify this for me as I'm starting to believe my contributions aren't welcome here [26]. Maybe Wikipedia would be better off if we went back to this version [27] which is nice and vague and won't risk raising too many questions. Digiterata 01:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)'
It's very simple Digiterata. What goes in is anything that is relevant, interesting, and backed by a reputable source. What is a reputable source? Why, it's whatever TomHarrison and MONGO say it is. In this case, they say it is anything which supports the official version of events. What if there are conflicting data from reputable sources? Then we must rely on the undue weight clause. Which items are excluded under the undue weight clause? Why, it's whatever MONGO and TomHarrison say. What about NPOV? Forget NPOV. NPOV is not important here in this article. We must NOT use the neutral point of view, because that would violate the undue weight clause, and might mention unreputable sources. Just ask Tom Harrison and MONGO.
Want to test the theory? I'm game Digiterata. Put some facts in the article . I'll back you, and so will other truthseekers. Eventually MONGO and co. will block us, but I think it is important that we try. Ethics and the scientific method demand it. -TruthSeeker1234
69.236.23.7 07:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to have to be an asshole, but the debate is over. You conspircay theorists, in all honesty, simply don't know what you are talking about. Morton is correct, the "Scholars" for 9/11 "Truth" do not emply the scientific method. Let me explain what the scientific method means. Scientific method means that qualified professionals, such as me, explain the situation to unqualified ameteurs. That is why we have journals. We explain it, you listen.
9/11 has been studied, and studied, and studied again. This was almost 5 years ago. Please, in honor of the victims, stop this madness, stop supporting the terrorists. Grow up, get a life, and allow this article to be finished. You have a page called "9/11 conspiracy theories". Go nuts there. Please stop dishonoring the dead. They deserve better. EngineerEd 03:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey, guys why dont you go and waste this wiki: [29]. Im sure youll agree it reads like something i would write... -- Striver 19:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The disputed tag is being added to the article to reflect how this is one of the top controversial articles in Wikipedia. Elfguy 15:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Excluding the conspiracy theory fairy tales, which are not in good faith, there does not seem to be any genuine dispute of the content of the article.
Peter Grey
23:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The official stories are conspiracy theories. Which fairy tales are you talking about? That Hani Honjour and his co-conspirators somehow boarded a jet with no tickets, overwhelmed the pilots, somehow navigated all the way from Ohio to the Pentagon, somehow entered the code to turn the transponder off, somehow avoided air defenses, somehow made the 270 degree downward spiral, (thus avoiding the easy approach where the top brass had offices), and executed the tree-top approach at full speed, somehow defeating ground effect, and crashed at ground level into the only part of the building that was mostly evacuated and heavily reinforced?
Or which fairy tales?
Like a gravitational collapse somehow contains enough energy to pulverize a building into pyroclastic clouds of dust?
Or which ones? Clarify please.
TruthSeeker1234 01:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Peter, controlled demolitions have occurred many time, entire companies specialize in them. To characterize this as improbable is disingenous. It is backwards. Controlled demolition has a distinct scientific advantage over any other explanation, because they have actually occured, and are well understood. All other explanations require new theories, new science.
Here are two nice papers with the some of the energy calculations
[30] and [31] TruthSeeker1234 07:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm willing to look at anyone's energy calculations about the dust clouds or whatever. Where are they? Also, just so ya know, I don't consider al Qa'ida to be a "neutral" source. They are a suspect in this whole deal. But so are top officials in the Bush administration. We don't trust government sources to be "neutral". Any scientists out there NOT on the government payroll? Not too many. TruthSeeker1234 00:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Please give me a link to a catastrophic failure which resembles 9/11 in any of the important respects - sudden onset, symmetry, collapse times, pulverization, squibs, horizontal ejection, pyroclastic flows, bright flashes, molten metal, eyewitness reports of explosions. Thanks. Here's a promise. If you can show me a natural collapse that comes anywhere close to resembling 9/11, I will stop editing all 9/11 articles forever. TruthSeeker1234 00:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Which is a longwinded way of admitting that nothing in history remotely resembles what happened on 9/11, except all of the controlled demoltions, which for some strange reason are very much like what happened on 9/11.
Huysman starts out by stating there was no molten steel at the WTC, but there are photographs and multiple published reports of molten steel, as we've been though a dozen times. The stuff in the photo cannot be aluminum, because aluminum would be a runny liquid. And he goes from there.
I ask everyone now to look at this picture [32] and answer this question for me: The collapse is about half-over, and it appears that most of the material from above has been converted to dust, and has been ejected outside the footprint. At the point in time this photo was taken, where is the mass pushing down on the intact, undamaged structure?
And what is the explanation for the dust which is going upwards?
TruthSeeker1234 04:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm tired of listening to your crap about bad faith. Go ahead and tell me my argument about undue weight was done in bad faith. SkeenaR 16:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The table lists 45 fatalities for flight 93 (including passengers and hijackers), but the Flight 93 page puts the number at 44. One of these is incorrect.
What's happened to this article? The last time I saw it it looked something like this [33], and the word terrorism was avoided because it's clearly a loaded term. Now we have it smattered all around the intro like some sort of propaganda campaign. I mean, honestly, "Approximately 3,000 people died in these terrorist attacks." ? You may as well say "Approximately 3,000 people died in these evil attacks by cruel-hearted, Jesus-hating Islamic boogeymen." The word is just plastered all around needlessly. I thought a long time ago people on this talk page showed significant disagreement as to its usage and decided it should only be applied by 3rd party sources, rather than by flatly defining it as terrorism. Do we lose anything by removing the word "terrorist" in the intro? Can't we just say that 3,000 people died in the attacks, or that they were coordinated attacks? I don't take issue with saying that popular media reported the acts as terrorism, but using it like we do here is POV. Sarge Baldy 02:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn’t seem to be updated at all?
There is no section about WTC 7? Which is unbelievable to say the least. Why is there no word about NIST's admittance of freefall with regards to that building?
[35],
[36]
There is no section about advance knowledge? Which is unbelievable to say the least… Why is there no mention of warnings, memos, put options..?
[37]
There is no section about torture of the alleged hijackers and other suspects, not a word about criminal destruction of related tapes
[38] and so on… all this is lacking in this article which is one of the most biased articles I've seen on wiki since it was born.
All of this should have been added to the article at the very moment reliable and verifiable sources surface.
I thought that Wikipedia is financed by the world wide community and I'm shocked and awed by the fact that this article still looks as if it was written by NSA or Pentacon.
Here is something that should have been referenced as as soon as verifiable reference occurred.
"We tortured Qahtani," DawnisuponUS ( talk) 12:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
If there are truly omissions, I suggest that it is because it is all too easy to divert material to
9/11 conspiracy theories or dismiss new findings as material that belongs there.
On the other hand, your citation belongs nowhere near this article. It would be suitable for inclusion, if it is not included already, in the
Mohammed al Qahtani and related articles. Note that you can use the link under Toolbox (bottom left): "What links here" to find related articles, although of course this is a one-way search.
Anarchangel (
talk)
20:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
So who is diverting and turning facts into conspiracy? And why? DawnisuponUS ( talk) 23:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 25 |
The cited link is brokent/not available right now. The cited fact states that amongst other countries, India and UK introduced anti-terrorist legislations. I can't figure out what legislations in these countries are being referred to.
Great video debunking the idiocy known as Loose Change.
Is someone going to revert to the previous version? The content looks professional, but there isn't much of it! Wave of Mutilation 05:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been away on other things, and haven't got to starting the Alternate Theories section yet. (Nothing mysterious has happened to me! ;) I think it is safe to start on a foreknowledge section, and a dissenting government officials section. I did look at what it was saying about that one Bin Laden tape on 9/11 myths.com, and admit that when you see the whole tape, some shots look considerably more like Bin Ladin than others. The bit about the ring, when Islam prohibits it is still out of place. That guy laughs a lot, too. Bin Laden doesn't seem to be the kind who has a good sense of humor, but it did seem a more informal situation. Still, the video is darker and has poor resolution, so that may account for some of the difficulty. I downloaded a low-resolution video from cnn.com of the second plane hitting the tower, and there is a red spot off-center from the plane just before it strikes, similar to those in Loose Change, but I guess I need to quit being cheap and just order some of the documentaries to get better resolution. I've read about half of a page on Able Danger somebody pointed out to me above, and it is interesting. This may not be quick, but as it is a minority view, we won't be able to get into much depth here anyway. Thanks for helping guard the Wikipedia content, BTW, guys. I hope there is a way to ban outright vandals, by IP mask, not userid. -- ThaThinker 23:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The 'alternate theories section' is 9/11 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison Talk 12:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article should address some disagreements over some of the particulars. It isn't screamingly obvious that every detail of the Commission Report is correct, in fact much of it is disputed and there are lots of omissions. Anything at all that doesn't jive perfectly with the official version goes to the "conspiracy theory" can? That ain't right. SkeenaR 20:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
It can't be true that the official version is the only explanation of events that can be encyclopedically correct as evidenced by the dozens of other articles that contain information which is in contradiction with the official version. SkeenaR 20:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Morton, that's just a bunch more opinion from you. I'm inclined to agree with Mongo on this..no silly unsubsustantiated wide-eyed POV OR. SkeenaR 21:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you've ever noticed but things don't necessarily have to come from Jones or "truth" or whoever to be in contradiction. The mainstream media and the gov't as reliable...what a joke...we always get the straight goods from them. Go get the WMD's...it'll be a cakewalk...flowers and hummers from the Iraqi girls. Oh yeah...the Taliban have been overthrown...Afghanistan is now an ally in the War On Terror...a member of the Coalition of the Willing. Do you believe that shit Morton? SkeenaR 21:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
We are talking about silly unsubstantiated wild eyed POV OR and reliable sources. Yes, they make promises too. SkeenaR 22:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know, I didn't write here to argue. I just wanted to say that this article is missing some encyclopedic info. But now that you mention it, no these things we were just referring to don't stay hidden forever, they manage to stay hidden just long enough to say "it's too late now". In the past, some of these types of things have been shown to happen by design. As to the point of the Commission, it's the opinion of some that it was to get to the bottom of things, and it's the opinion of others that it was meant to be a government sposored whitewash. SkeenaR 22:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if it's a secret, or which things are secret. But if you want an example that I've brought up on this page before about reliable information- all the unreliable, wide-eyed POV, agenda driven private sites under the control of one or two webmasters were trying explain in no uncertain terms that there were no WMD's in Iraq, while the MSM and gov't were cramming it hard enough down the throat of the public that most people suddenly thought it was a good idea to go on these cakewalk missions to spread freedom and democracy around the world and to the poor backwards dumbasses who attacked us because they hate us for such things. My only point is that I think we should rethink what we consider reliable and unreliable sources, or if we might use many different kinds of sources. I think we need to diversify this article a bit. Either that or it should be deleted and reposted at the State Department and DHS. SkeenaR 23:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Well you should consider how many non-conspiracy theorists there were who were pissed off because Bush chose to invade before allowing weapons inspections to take place. But no, it was just the conspiracy theorists who saw it coming. *roll eyes*-- DCAnderson 23:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not what I'm saying, and you are misrepresenting my comments. When I mentioned this example previously, I used Scott Ritter as the example of someone claiming that there were no WMD's there. Mostly, he was only taken seriously by alternative media rather than mainstream. He is not from the "wild eyed" crowd, nor were the "tin-hatters" the only ones to take him seriously, but for the most part the MSM pushed the govt line and the rest is history. Roll eyes he says. Does it hurt them to see this? You can't stand the fact that georgie and o'reilly were completely full of shit? That Tin Hatter Alex Jones was right that time? It doesn't matter anyway. I think I've made my point about the sources. SkeenaR 00:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
George Bush and Bill O'Reilly could both be described as "full of shit?" Stop the presses! My whole world is coming apart...gah... Papa Bear, nooooo!-- DCAnderson 00:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Somewhere there's a chat board that wonders where everyone is. Tom Harrison Talk 00:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Ok, I'm done :) SkeenaR 00:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States
Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.-- Ryz05 t 23:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
An observation that bears repeating: this article is Wikipedia's version of events, based on verifiable enyclopedic content; the US government version has its own article.
Some of the discussion seems to suggest all the content is opinion without being definitively true or false. That might apply to good-faith political opinions, but it does not apply to engineering opinions. Most objections come down to some variation of "why is a controlled demolition not being seriously considered?" The simple answer is that it does not merit consideration. A deliberate demolition of the towers while rescue efforts were on going would constitute pre-meditated mass murder, and if any evidence pointed to it, then without question a thorough investigation of the crime would be necessary. However, there is no such evidence. While it is true there are some observations consistent with a deliberate demolition (and these are almost all based the lowest-quality video and photographs), there are no examples of observations simultaneously consistent with demolition and not consistent with catastrophic structural failure.
Meanwhile, more valid, and useful, questions such as whether there was negligence before or political exploitation after go unaddressed. Peter Grey 03:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
That's a little deceptive, since the government version of events did not begin with the 9/11 Commission Report. This article is POV mainly not because of POV statements, but because it seems to assume the government view is the right one, as your POV statement does, while giving no consideration for the opinions of a substantial minority. You assume if there was good evidence of it, that there would be any will to undertake a criminal investigation. If this was a conspiracy that reached, for example, into the highest levels of government, we might well NOT expect that. There are good and responsible reasons to suggest they were controlled demolitions. Numerous secondary explosions, both reported and measured, and what appear to be squibs shot from many angles, and pools of molten metal lasting for MONTHS are in fact not consistent with melting on account of what is basically kerosine. Is it my fault you haven't done your homework?
See: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
The challenge is to see how much holds water once the dust settles.
Much I think would have to be changed about this page to remove support for the government theory. Better to have one introduction page that links to all the sub-pages. 9/11 skeptics have much better evidence than the people who characterize us as wearing tin-foil hats would give us credit for, at least in our opinion, and so long as there is a substantial minority that supports it, it deserves mention. I suppose somewhere, there is or should be a rule in wikipedia that it also stand some test of reasonableness, and so while I am not sure if the point is moot or not, it is the opinion of many of us that many such good arguments exist. In science, nothing is true or false, only more or less probable, BTW. This should not prevent one from reaching working conclusions, as in a forensic investigation. Of course, no forensic investigation is possible in the current case, as the evidence was unlawfully removed from the scene of the crime, and the investigation was underfunded, not allowed access to the crime scene, and perfunctory at best. Exploitation of 9/11 as an excuse to abridge our constitutional rights is sorta peripheral to the events themselves, but might be linked to from here. Any other pearls of skepticism to offer us as to problems with the official theory you'd care to volunteer? The Flat Earth theory gets at least mentioned on the Earth page, even though it has nothing anywhere near as tangible to point to in the way of evidence as the 9/11 critics do. If our complete exlusion with uncritical acceptance of the government position isn't POV, then I do not know what is. If we were cranks, we would deserve better. We would suggest that our evidence is much better than that.
If a lot of people wish to remove all disputed assertions from this and have POV sub-articles, as Mongo suggests, this is also possible. The downside is, how can we identify the person in first alleged Bin Laden confession tape, if we can't say he is, or he isn't Osama? What we have here works just fine for an official version, IMHO, and it only needs to be brought into balance with alternate theories, of which there is really only one, which I would formulate as follows: There are enough credible problems in the official version to call for a new truly independent, and far more public, open and comprehensive investigation into 9/11 than we have already had in the 9/11 Commission. I do this to solve the problem that there are people who consider themselves skeptics of the official version, but do not think the towers collapsed as a result of controlled demolition (i.e. LIHOP as opposed to MAHOP). They are generally happy to join with us in our call to bring these matters to the public attention, and hopefully, more independent and open investigation. Sunlight is, after all, the best disinfectant - for political matters anyway. One note about "Loose Change" I've come across - I don't believe he mentions the flashes just before or as the planes hit the buildings are in the second edition; only the first.
BTW guys, although it is a related debate, WMD's are really a different topic.
-- ThaThinker 11:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Undue weight is clearly not applicable. SkeenaR 22:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. -- ThaThinker 00:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Undue weight is applicable in keeping theories regarding shape-shifting extra-dimensional reptoids and other such nonsense out of the article as it is the view of a tiny fringe minority. But it is not a tiny minority that disagrees with many different aspects of the official version and therefore some of these aspects deserve at least a mention here. SkeenaR 00:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
But that's not the point. It doesn't matter who feels passionately about what. I am not trying to prove that the official version is wrong. Also, I'm not trying to offend anybody no matter what they believe. The point is that the Undue Weight clause is not applicable per the reason I cited above. SkeenaR 01:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
So how are they not a minority?-- DCAnderson 01:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
They may or may not be a minority, but they are not a "tiny minority". Read the policy. SkeenaR 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
They may or may not be a minority, but they are not a "tiny minority". They are a "significant minority". What you just stated above is pure opinion. Check the news, check google rankings on 9/11 related subjects, check the polls, and not just current ones. Read the policy. SkeenaR 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
All I've seen of these guys so far is:
I'm not convinced that this is a signifigant minority. Vocal, yes. Signifigant, no.-- DCAnderson 02:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I must be on the right track seeing as how you are now on the offensive with a bunch of POV and not one shred of evidence to back it up. On the other hand, I can find plenty of evidence supporting my assertions regarding the Undue Weight policy. You can go ahead and ask for it. I will give it to you. But I wonder if you will attempt another refute similar to the one above, thereby keeping us in an pointless merry-go-round. SkeenaR 03:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Aren't the talk pages on all the 9/11 articles pointless merry-go-rounds? But allright, show me your evidence, I've probably seen it and refuted it before on one of the merry-go-round passes.-- DCAnderson 03:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
CNN had a web poll (above) showing over 90% who doubted the official 9/11 story. A few years back, Zogby had one saying I think 49% of New Yorkers (I don't know if city or state, probably the former) thought the government was complicit in the attacks. A more recent article discusses another Zogby poll:
"According to a new Zogby poll, less than half of Americans are convinced that that the events of September 11 have been thoroughly investigated, RAW STORY has learned.
In the telephone survey of 1200 individuals, just 47% agreed that 'the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense." Almost as many, 45%, indicated they were more likely to agree "that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success.'"
Found at: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Less_than_half_of_Americans_satisfied_0523.html
In the interest of disclosure, the Zogby polls are funded by 911truth.org. I am not affiliated with either, nor any related formal organization, at least thus far. Although these numbers come from only one source plus a CNN web poll, I am aware of no polls by other organizations to refute it, either. Rather sizeable meetings on the subject have been staged around the country, and there are upcoming concerts in Austin on this theme. Although the television media refuse to acknowledge its existence, there is a substantial and growing minority that hold this view. I suggest that the pervasive media blackout itself should be evidence that something is wrong. I realize this is difficult news for many to hear, and that you may have nothing in your experience to relate it to. This is why I am being patient and deliberate with my request for balance in this article - to give you guys a little time to get over the denial phase that such a substantial minority exists, but is being blacked out from mainstream media. If we simply engage in edit wars, it'll be harder for us to get anything figured out. -- ThaThinker 03:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
You think you can wave a magic wand, and say that those polls have no evidential value? It is the only evidence we have on the subject. It is POV to leave out a substantial minority. Do you care to offer evidence to refute me, or can we just disregard you as argumentative? I have no love of disagreeing with people without evidence. I don't intend to participate in such debates. The number of people posting here in support of better balance should also qualify as evidence. Where is your basis for saying the polls are misleading? The thrust of them is pretty obvious. Ironic, isn't it, that you claim to be a Wikipedian against censorship. -- ThaThinker 03:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Look, there are three or four CNN polls, at least two Zogby polls that you obviously don't give credibility too, but you would have to prove they are invalid(their results are more scientific than your opinion), there are some other polls which I could look up, there are scientists, military experts, government officials, computer experts, journalists, intelligence experts, many of whom are distinguished professionals in their fields with excellent credentials. There have been many mainstream news articles and televion programs regarding this, especially outside of the United States(such as Canada). Can you just admit that the minority is significant and that some of the disagreements should be presented in the article? Or you want sources on this(like you haven't seen them-and would it make a difference to you). SkeenaR 03:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
What about me? I don't I get any baseless rhetoric from you? We have plenty of evidence. If it's evidence regarding the Undue Weight policy we have plenty and you know it. SkeenaR 03:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Just because I don't want to spend a lot of time retreading the same ground, here are the threads on other pages where that Zogby poll is discussed:
No, that's exactly what you are doing, taking us in another circle. I think the next step is to start adding material, sources and citing policy as it's being done to make sure there are no violations. I am well aware of my limits and boundaries as an editor and I hope others are as well. It looks like this will be a bumpy ride for any who take on the challenge of NPOV'ing this article. SkeenaR 03:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"No, that's exactly what you are doing, taking us in another circle."
That was sarcasm, for the curious. I am not interested in keeping this thread going indefinitely. You tried to characterize the minority as insignificant, and I responded, not knowing of your research. New or old, its still evidence. Google on 9/11 and truth, or 9/11 and conspiracy, and you will find MILLIONS of hits, with many of the top ones being critical of the official version. This is evidence too. Nitpicking at the Zogby polls can't make them vanish completely, until we have them by other organizations. The fact that we don't should also seem suspicious to you. The news blackout, and the lack of other polls on the subject doesn't seems suspicious to you? I've given you three evidential items: pools, google hits, and posters here, and you only try to say they are not evidence. -- ThaThinker 04:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
News blackout and lack of other polls? Are you sure it's a cover up or (drumroll) it just isn't significant.-- DCAnderson 04:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Criticism is not evidence. Evidence of conspiracy theories belongs on the corresponding page. Evidence supporting conspiracy theories (the demolition ones, at least) has not been found. There is evidence supporting the mainstream account, there is none indicating demolition - it's that simple. Peter Grey 14:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm referring to claims such as "nineteen men affiliated with Al-Qaeda hijacked two commercial airliners and flew them into the World Trade Center, causing its collapse" and similar claims. It has not been proven that the "hijackers" were affiliated with Al-Qaeda (in fact some of the alleged hijackers are still alive), and whether or not the planes alone caused the collapse of the towers is likewise up for debate. Just because the government says one thing doesn't discredit anyone who says the opposite. There are several similar claims made throughout the article. NPOV demands that we do not take the patriotic point of view, and make sure it is known that the government's report on the 9/11 attacks are speculatory at best. Don't give an Ameriflag 03:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe anyone here has asked for that. What is fact and what is nonsense seems to be disputed. What seems beyond dispute, is that a substantial minority is being censored from this page. For Alternate Theories to be added to this page, no removal of "facts" which we would not label as such, is needed. To keep them on a separate page, and remove all government version only statements from this one is the only choice that would require removing anything, unless you guys decide to remove details from the official story. -- ThaThinker 03:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I've answered this already. Mainstream sources such as mainstream news items, Congressional websites and the Congressional record, and mainstream documentaries. -- ThaThinker 04:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is nothing more than spin. Any amendments made adding in "verifiable" information contradicting the US government's version of events, is simply deleted.
This article is not "verifiaable information"...it is a one-sided piece composed of selected propaganda.
Disagreements that are held by a significant minority. SkeenaR 06:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Why are there all these questions that are still unanswered? Who warned Mayor Brown not to fly on September 11?
Someone quoted FEMA: "The Boeing 707 that was considered in the design of the towers was estimated to have a gross weight of 263,000 pounds and a flight speed of 180 mph AS IT APPROACHED AN AIRPORT; (!) the Boeing 767-200ER aircraft that were used to attack the towers had an estimated gross weight of 274,000 pounds and flight speeds of 470 to 590 mph UPON IMPACT" - - - But this is just another sleazy presentation of the least relevant facts, because the early Boeing 707s had a CRUISE SPEED of 591 mph - THE SAME IMPACT SPEED AS THE HIGHEST VELOCITY 767! And the 767 is only 14,000 pounds heavier than the 707! And the 767s weren't FULLY-LOADED! And the WTC RESIDENT STRUCTURAL ENGINEER, Frank DeMartini, who was initially "hired by the structural engineering firm Leslie E. Robertson Associates to help with the repairs of the 1993 terrorist bombing at the World Trade Center" (NYT paid notices, obituaries), said, in an interview broadcast on the History Channel, January 2001:
"The building was designed to have a fully-loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building PROBABLY COULD SUSTAIN MULTIPLE IMPACTS OF JETLINERS, because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid. And the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. IT REALLY DOES NOTHING to the screen netting." 58.106.69.176 15:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the one getting upset about an "allegedly" being placed where it belongs, because there is as much evidence that the hijackers were Al-Qaeda as there is that they werne't. We're here posting facts, not propaganda. Don't give an Ameriflag 04:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
With edit summaries like:
the answer is, yes, you need to chill.-- DCAnderson 04:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The latter, yes. But the former (which was the latter chronologically)? How is that not chill? What['s wrong with saying "allegedly" anyway? Which are you more afraid of, being branded a terrorist, or a liar? Don't give an Ameriflag 04:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"How is that not chill?"
"What['s wrong with saying "allegedly" anyway?"
"Which are you more afraid of, being branded a terrorist, or a liar?"
"No significant group that says otherwise."
"Plus, Bin Laden admitted to it repeatedly"
-10/7/01 Osama bin Laden [4] -10/9/01 Suleiman Abu Ghaith [5] -10/14/01 Osama bin Laden [6] -10/27/01 Suleiman Abu Ghaith [7] -2/02 Osama bin Laden [8] -4/02 Ahmed Alhaznawi and other 9/11 hijackers – these martyrdom videos contradict the claim that the hijackers are still alive, their identities were stolen, etc. [9] -9/10/02 Osama bin Laden and others [10] -9/02 Ayman Al Zawahiri [11] -10/02 Ramzi Binalshibh and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed [12] -3/03 Osama bin Laden [13] -9/21/03 Abu Muhammad al-Ablaj [14] -8/04 Abu Jandal [15] -10/30/04 Osama bin Laden [16] -9/12/05 Adam Gadahn [17] -- Huysman talk| contribs 16:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm attempting to use information in accordance with policy and I am open to reasonable discussion. Are you? SkeenaR 07:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, I'm not sure which conclusions your talking about unless you are referring to my comments about the Undue Weight policy. There are disagreements with the material in this article that are held by a significant minority and they they have to be presented according to policy. SkeenaR 08:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, your comments about mainstream press coverage are pure opinion. I have yet to see you legitimatley dispute any point made about the Undue Weight policy. SkeenaR 08:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Please try to be civil. There needs to be more information in the article and I will put it there. I'm not trying to push pov, or "junk science". Please tell me why you called me a "looney". SkeenaR 09:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Used to be that I felt like the odd-man-out here. Skee-man, don't take it so seriously, it's just effing Wikipedia. Morton devonshire 07:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Morton, but everythings cool. I could go play PS2 or something but I find this more enjoyable believe it or not. My girlfriend left me for Stephen Harper(better not tell his wife) SkeenaR 08:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
What is going on here? Why the name calling, the vituperatives and other nonsense? If there are conspiracy theories and these are described in the article as such, what is the problem? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
vituperative-"Using, containing, or marked by harshly abusive censure." SkeenaR 16:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There are a substantial amount of facts and associated material, from verifiable sources, that is not covered in this article. It presents an "glossed over" version of events by omitting all the incosistancies and the implications. Not to mention isolating 9/11 attacks from the Global context over the last 40 years.
As such, it falls under the catagory of propaganda, instead of a comprehensive answer from a "global encyclopedia".
This is not a political tool.
Great. We appreciate that. We can give you plenty. -- ThaThinker 15:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As Thinker said "What is fact and what is nonsense seems to be disputed. What seems beyond dispute, is that a substantial minority is being censored from this page." SkeenaR 16:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Whether they've been debunked or not is not at issue. The Flat Earth theory is not excluded from the Earth page. This theory has more of substance to it than that one, and yet you guys keep this page POV, and exclude it. It is only the opinion of the majority that these theories have been debunked, and many of them haven't studied the subject very extensively; but that does not justify this idea not being mentioned on this page. This page is POV, and you are unwilling to allow such facts as may exist that might tend to undermine the official point of view to be mentioned on this page. I think we are at a POV impasse. I mean, on you guys' self description, you guys say how you're POV against 911 "conspriacy theoriests", and that is fine and well, but the Wikipeda requires you share "your" page with those of other viewpoints, especially when it is the main article on those events. There is substantial evidence of forewarnings suppressed by the 9/11 Commission, many former government officials and agents have come out and denounced the official version, and all those secondary explosions reported by people just before the buildings collapsed, that aren't being mentioned here, and should be. -- ThaThinker 04:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"A 19th-century organization called the Flat Earth Society advocated the even-then discredited idea that the Earth was actually disc-shaped, with the North Pole at its center and a 150- foot (50 meter) high wall of ice at the outer edge. It and similar organizations continued to promote this idea, based on religious beliefs and conspiracy theories, through the 1970s. Today, the subject is more frequently treated tongue-in-cheek or with mockery.
"Since the attacks, various conspiracy theories have emerged. These include speculation that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, or that they actually planned the attacks. Some of those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives. Some also contend that a commercial airliner did not crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."
Ok, I stand corrected. It does mention it, but this idea is more subsantial than four sentences. This doesn't begin to describe the fishy aspects of the attacks. If 45% of the people in the Zogby poll believe something is fishy about the idea, the provide me another poll, or else we should at least get about 20%. This idea has much more going for it than you give it credit for: Able Danger, the Pheonix Memo, Mousoui reported on an expired visa by FBI agents in Minnisota, the FBI agents who warned David Schippers, former lead councel in Bill Clinton's impeachment being warned, the mayor of San Francisco being reportedly warned by Condi Rice, as the Chronicle says it was told on Pacifica Radio. All these things are factual, and have not been debunked, whatever the ultimate judgment of history on the matter. Can't you guys quit playing politics, and let a more balanced view emerge? Again, the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims published a list of questions, many of which weren't even addressed by th 9/11 Commission at all. Can't you respect their wishes? -- ThaThinker 05:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Al the things you mention appear in 9/11 conspiracy theories. That is pretty generous under WP:NPOV#Undue weight.-- DCAnderson 05:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
These things are included in detail in that article as per the title. In this article, things that are unverifiable, alleged or disputed must be presented as such according to policy. SkeenaR 05:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
So lets begin with things that seem factual, and go from there. -- ThaThinker 05:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Unless people have some favorites, which might seem pov, I suggest working our way down the page from top to bottom. SkeenaR 05:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll check for junk like self references first. That didn't take long. SkeenaR 05:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There are no self references allowed as per policy. Being the big bug on policy I thought you knew that. SkeenaR 05:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
And if some of us check for mistakes like that while others look for refrences, we will speed the process of improving this article. SkeenaR 05:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I hate to break it to you, but there were three citations for that statement.-- DCAnderson 05:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
That's cool DC, we can add stuff later if we need to. We should check for sources and remove garbage in the meantime. I hope your sudden removal of that other piece wasn't some kind of retaliation. I'm assuming good faith. SkeenaR 05:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to make this an excercise in pedanticism, but I was cited myself for a violation by providing a link exactly like what you just did in a different article. What is the difference between a self-refrence and a fixed internal link? SkeenaR 06:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Take it easy man, I just remember somebody said we can't use wikipedia as a self reference and I think they are right. If I was making a mistake in this case, that's not a problem, I just wanted some clarification on that. SkeenaR 06:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I see what you mean. You were right. SkeenaR 06:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This talk page should be archived soon because it is becoming too long. -- Huysman talk| contribs 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
goes up. As per discussion the neutrality of this article is disputed because of some unverified facts being presented as verified and because of ommisions of verifiable material that is in contradiction with some information presented here. SkeenaR 06:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Or I'll take it down. Let's try for progress first. SkeenaR 06:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
You removed all this detail, with refs, along with my (okay, it was lengthy essaying, just striving for balance) explanation, etc. But I think it's pretty important, since this 9/11 start page has virtually nothing about the guys who actually did it. Maybe the blockquote can go in ref notes, since it's a bit long? Seems a disservice to not even mention the letter in the article. Also, there needs to be something core like this to counter all the wrong western bias about cause and effect (former troops in SA, U.S. support of Israel, etc.) that is so prevalent in the article, but that is just western wishful thinking, that if only we could learn how to appease them enough, they would stop attacking us, you know. The hijackers' letter gives better insight into what is really in their heads about flying planes into buildings, just presented as is, without commentary. So, here it is,
On September 28, 2001, the FBI held a Press Conference, during which they released an untranslated handwritten 4-page "hijackers' letter" written in Arabic and found in three separate copies at Dulles, the Pennsylvania crash site, and in Mohamed Atta's suitcase. It included Islamic prayers, instructions for a last night of life, and a practical checklist of final reminders for the mission. [1] translated: [2] The British newspaper The Observer published this translation, provided for The New York Times by Capital Communications Group, a Washington-based international consulting firm, and by Imad Musa, a translator. The writer of the letter may not be known. But clearly, it was found in multiple locations, and so the text was of importance to at least several of the hijackers, on the last day. Some notable excerpts:
..."Make an oath to die and renew your intentions..."... "Check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. (You must make your knife sharp and must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter). " ... "All of their equipment and gates and technology will not prevent, nor harm, except by God's will. The believers do not fear such things. ..." ... "When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, 'Allahu Akbar,' because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers. God said: 'Strike above the neck, and strike at all of their extremities.' Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, 'Come hither, friend of God.' They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing..." ... "If you slaughter, do not cause the discomfort of those you are killing, because this is one of the practices of the prophet, peace be upon him..." ... "Do not seek revenge for yourself. Strike for God's sake..." ... "Then implement the way of the prophet in taking prisoners. Take prisoners and kill them. As Almighty God said: 'No prophet should have prisoners until he has soaked the land with blood... " ... "How beautiful it is for one to read God's words, such as: 'And those who prefer the afterlife over this world should fight for the sake of God.' And His words: 'Do not suppose that those who are killed for the sake of God are dead; they are alive ... '." ... "Either end your life while praying, seconds before the target, or make your last words: 'There is no God but God, Muhammad is His messenger'."
...end of hijackers' letter excerpts. So, does at least some well-deserved part of this go back in? Steven Russell 08:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It would probably fit into either of these articles:
--
ThaThinker
01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Outline of Proposed Alternative Theories Section:
I. Reports of Foreknowledge Abel Danger - Intelligence program which had identified Mohammed Atta and probable terror cell in Brooklin before 9/11 was blocked from being reported to the FBI. The Pheonix Memo - A document released under the Freedom of Information Act has AZ FBI agent writing report about Osama probable associated persons at flight school, and urgently urges investigation of other flight schools as well Cathleen Rowley - Minneapolis FBI agent reports Moussaoui suspected as terrorist by flight instructor, and wanted by Al Qaeda in Paris, and is ignored. David Schippers - lead councel for Clinton's impeachment, says FBI agents were warning impending attack, and getting ignored. One said the date of the attack was widely known within FBI Henry Waxman - Requested yet other foreknowledge documents from 9/11 Commission, but despite his being on the Government Reform Committee, was denied Sibel Edmunds - Extensive article appeared in Vanity Fair about being gagged with important 9/11 information. (Many others exist, but space prevents all being listed.) II. Background Information Bin Laden at first denies responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. The Pentagon then releases a video with poor resolution in which he seems to confess, except many of the things in the sub-titles are not in original Arabic. Government sources subsequently released an audio only confession by Bin Laden. PNAC document in 2000 suggests "a new Pearl Harbor-like event" might accelerate U.S. plans in the Mideast Condi Rice says "we" had no idea Al-Qaeda might attack by airplanes, despite FAA and other drills for just such a scenario. She later changes this to "I" had no idea they might attack by airplanes, leaving the question of who else knew of these drills open. Link to list of serious questions about 9/11 by the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims III. Peculiar aspects of the attacks The two towers collapsed suddenly, at nearly free-fall speed, one a little under an hour, the other a little over an hour later. By this time, at least one of the fires had subsided enough for people to stand in the gaping hole left by the plane, awaiting rescue. When each building in its time collapsed, each collapsed straight down, causing minimal damage to nearby buildings. Reports of secondary explosions before towers fell in local papers, and in firemen's communications Wreckage removed quickly after underfunded investigation Designer of towers said buidlings were built to withstand impact of one, and could probably survive six impacts of 707's No other structural steel buildings have ever collapsed on account of fire Many of supposed 9/11 attackers reported alive (Future expansion: the flashes of light on WTC1 and WTC2 just before the planes hit) Building Seven also collapses neatly later that day at 4:00PM, almost demolition style, killing workers still in building, reportedly on accout of fire Reports of a white jet and mid-air explosion, when flight 93 reportedly crashed into the ground Two videos of Pentagon attack fail to produce convincing evidence of a Boeing IV. Dissenting government officials, experts and celebreties who have come forward Five former government officials or important appointees have denounced the official story. By way of contrast, Nixon officials went public on Watergate only after intense Congressional investigation. David Bowman - Claims to have been Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the Air Force Space Division until 1978 under Carter and Ford (and no official source has yet repudiated this claim), says concerning new intereptor flight procedures issued just before 9/11 (which newly required administration officials in order to OK not just shoot-downs, but any and all interceptions), if they had only have done nothing, the attacks would never have succeeded. He calls actions that allowed it to happen, treason. Calls Bush a renegade president. Ray McGovern - Former CIA analyst, used to prepare Reagan's and then Bush Sr.'s Presidential Daily Briefs, calls for Bush Jr's resignation over 9/11. Former FBI Director Louis Freeh - 9/11 was "an inside job" Morgan Reynolds - Former cheif economist at Bush Jr.'s Dept. of Labor, recenty resigned, and said he thought 9/11 was an inside job Sgt. Eric Haney - founder of the Army's elite Delta Force unit, says "The reasons of this administration for taking this nation to war were not what they stated." Leon Minetta - Places Cheney at control center of the Pentagon when plane hit, contradicting Cheney's own account Russ Whittenberg - Former Air Force and airline pilot, says Pentagon maneuver impossible for an inexperienced pilot Sampling of celebreties who have denounced the official account of 9/11 - Charlie Sheen, Ed Asner, Sharon Stone, Ed Beagley (of St. Elsewhere), James Woods (117 major film credits), and Dean Haglund (the X-Files).
Even if an item has been debunked, that does not justify censoring it. Things which tend to debunk it can be listed in this section as well. This should allow this article to include opinions of a significant minority who does not feel that most of these items have been debunked. Whether many of them are right or not, we feel we cannot know until a more thorough investigation is completed. -- ThaThinker 20:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears that many things that are there, do not belong there. For example, whether Abel Danger comes out to be true or not, ultimately, we have people that said it. It is in the Congressional Record. It's a matter of public knowledge. I don't think a definitive investigation has ever been completed, nor has it been satisfactorilly been debunked. If so, tell me where. It certainly does not belong on a page only for debunked theories, at least as yet. No lies, at least on my part anyway, but that was a mistake. My apologies to David Duchovny. These are the things that MUST be included, or this article is BAD POV. Why do you fear having lies and falsehoods here, if it is a significant point of view, and the information that debunks it is here? I was being generous. I maintain that you can't debunk that, e.g. Charlie Sheen or these other people denounced the official story, because even mainstream press says thay did. What is it issue is whether they are right, and I say, lets present the facts, and let the people decide for themselves. Why are you afraid of telling both sides of the story? -- ThaThinker 21:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Ryan did not certify steel for UL....he tested water quality. Robert(not david) Bowman did not direct Star Wars. He directed some little program prior to Star Wars with no direct link. Morgan Reynolds was an economist at the Bureau of Labor, not the "head". The fires at WTC were not "under control" ... practically nothing was done about the fires and I doubt the firefighters even reached it before the word came to get out. Designer of towers said they would withstand "one" 707, a smaller plane. No workers in WTC 7 when it collapsed. I could go on and on. The rest is heresay and speculation
You apparently aren't in the same reality I'm in. -- Mmx1 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is good. Lets update my outline with corrected versions of these events, and get such facts as remain standing, up. I want to be disabused of any illusions. This does not entirely exempt Bowman's expertise, as I know I heard him claim to be an interceptor pilot, and he knew what the proceedures used to be, and what they were changed to. -- ThaThinker 21:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
When Bowman was a pilot....Kennedy was President, bell-bottoms were in fashion, and a computer took up a room. He has been retired for 30 years and has not worked in the defense sphere. It's a stretch to say he knows what the current procedures are. He also has a credibility problem, as half the medals he claims to have won don't exist, and he has been caught lying about his SAME medals. -- Mmx1 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are some of the statements from your outline and my opinions on them: "PNAC document suggests "a new Pearl Harbor-like event might accelerate U.S. plans in the Mideast"
"Bin Laden at first denies responsibility for the 9/11 attacks."
"a video with poor resolution in which he seems to confess, except many of the things in the sub-titles are not in original Arabic."
"Link to list of serious questions about 9/11 by the Steering Committee of the Families of the 9/11 Victims"
Most of the things regarding the WTC under section III are mischarecterizations from Steven E. Jones. He is most definitely a fringe minority, and he is discussed in other articles. His theories allready do get a one sentence mention in this article.
"Reports of a white jet and mid-air explosion, when flight 93 (?) reportedly crashed into the ground"
Most of the celebrities are not worth mentioning, as they are not really experts on anything.-- DCAnderson 22:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The wikipedia article on Bowman says: "former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force in the Ford and Carter administrations". Director. The Wikipedia page on Bowman says nothing about these non-existent medals, only listing ones he received. The idea that the "new Pearl Harbor" statement refers to 9/11 is NOT original with me. The idea that the the first confession video is of dubious quality is NOT original with me. Overseas papers ran a story on how a number of the phrases the Pentagon said were there, in the subtitles, were not there. I haven't run across Stephen E. Jones, and I've seen a lot of these ideas MANY places. If I found a flake that supported the official version, should we dismiss it? I'll have to study some more to come to my own conclusion on Ryan's expertise, but we might could replace that with a better item. Eric Haney, founder of the Army's elite Delta Force unit, who says the war on terrorism is bogus would be a good substitute. At first, I thought there was a relevency problem, but then again, the War on Terror began with the 9/11 attacks. A number of the items on the "9/11 conspiracy theories" DO seem factual, whether their claims can ultimately be verified or will be refuted. If that is a page for debunked items, the best of them need representation here. Also, mention of what appear to be squibs was left of my outline. It is really presented for other 9/11 skeptics and 9/11 skeptic debunkers as a starting point for fixing this page's POV problem. The whole section need not be that long, as most items need only a sentence or two. Then, I think most 9/11 skeptics will agree, the "9/11 Conspiracy Theories" page has a POV title, and should somehow be subsumed as a sub-page of Alternate Theories, and/or a new Debunked Theories and Hypotheses page. We should have mention of the cream of the crop items on this page, where they haven't been debunked. Although celebreties are not experts, we still think it is important for the public to know that many are coming forward. Can better items be found, and some of these ideas debunked? Probably. Are there better points that could be brought out, which should get precidence over some here? Probably. Yet, most of them remain viable, at the end of the day, and are being censored, against Wikipedia policy, from this page. -- ThaThinker 23:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not true that they are not verifiable. They are. People have built scale model mockups of the floor sections of the WTC, to see if they can be burned by flames. Much of this stuff IS verifiable, if 9/11 terrorists here in the US if FBI agents had already been reported to superiors. Nice try. Invalid agrument for exclusion. It IS verifiable if various people denounced the official theory. -- ThaThinker 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
As stated above, this article neees to get WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY back to basics, WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW. Just basic irrefutable facts, highly mainstream, highly verifiable and highly reputable. So I propose a major split: Essentially the entire bottom half of this article deals with almost extraneous ideas that spring off of the attack itself. The attack is the attack, nothing more, as the home page here for this whole thing. This should be the place where people go on Wikipedia to get the very basics, and nothing more. So my proposal for the split of all the bottom half extraneous material that is currently there: It all sticks together cohesively as "Ramifications of 9-11." Everything from cleanups, speeches, wars on terror, conspiracy theories, backstories, further agendas, world opinions, and on and on and on in a neverending series of subarticles. But just keep this basic page to the fundamental five W's, and the H. Feedback, please. Steven Russell 03:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Context IS important. WWII is not just the battles, but also the causes, and a huge section on the aftermath. Some pages like the Organizers of the September 11, 2001 attacks should be better linked, but the current division of content is appropriate.-- Mmx1 03:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I could see that, but not excluding the opinions of a signficiant minority to the extent that they are treated as a tiny minority on this page. It really comes off sounding one-sided. -- ThaThinker 05:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been running an analysis of the claims made by Professor Steven Jones', Professor of Physics at BYU and former principle scientist for Muon catalysed fusion with the US Department of Energy.
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
By Steven E. Jones, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University,
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
This paper has multiple peer-reviews and no one, as yet, has been able to come close to debunking the material, nor been able to approach it at a scientific level. It can be a difficult read, as the implications of the numerous scientific claims are not apparent to the layman or casual observer.
The bottom line is that solid scientific material exists, that suggests either an alternative scenario, or a hidden scenario under the guise of the attacks.
This must be covered for accuracy and balance.
Of course the material has been debunked. Steven Jones raises 13 points; here are the problems with them:
1. Equally valid observation for both catastrophic failure and controlled demolition
2. WTC 7, not relevant to WTC 1 and WTC 2.
3. Same as (1).
4. Fact about unrelated circumstances.
5. Observation consistent with catastrophic failure and not controlled demolition
6. Same as (1).
7. Same as (1).
8. Same as (1).
9. Same as (5).
10. Same as (5).
11. Based on flawed assumption.
12. Objection to NIST procedure, unrelated to actual tower collapse.
13. Same as (12).
1. Equally valid observation for both catastrophic failure and controlled demolition
2. WTC 7, not relevant to WTC 1 and WTC 2.
3. Same as (1).
4. Fact about unrelated circumstances.
5. Observation consistent with catastrophic failure and not controlled demolition
6. Same as (1).
7. Same as (1).
8. Same as (1).
9. Same as (5).
10. Same as (5).
11. Based on flawed assumption.
12. Objection to NIST procedure, unrelated to actual tower collapse.
13. Same as (12).
I would also point out that the paper makes the claim The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.... -- this is made as a statement of faith, without evidence, so the objectivity of the whole paper comes into question. Peter Grey 20:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
24.106.90.250 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
An expert within civilized society won't use vocabulary like "nuts, idiot moron, quacks" etc. Now your other possible arguments which have not been even presented here lost any viability. Thank you for supporting (unconsciously) the honest documentation of the 9/11 events. PS in a just and fair dialogue supporting community your IP address would be banned immediately and not allowed here but we know who controls and spins all political articles on Wikipedia, so you are about to stay..
I notice the damage total is not mentioned on the article. I've read a few sources that said it was in the $20 billion range. Provided someone finds an exact, official link, I think something like that would be an important little fact for the article. Hurricanehink ( talk) 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous IP added "It is important to note that the US government has supported, trained, and sold arms to al-Qaeda in the past. In fact, the US put al-Qaeda into power." As that would be a horribly a very strong and dangerous comment to make without prior discussion, especially amid controversy, I removed it back the version of the article prior. Kevin_b_er 05:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Something along those lines could go in, as long as there was a good source for it. But it wouldn't, even if we had an affadavit from the government that said so. SkeenaR 06:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The USG did not arm or train al-Qaeda. It armed and trained the Muhjahadeen, specifically to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan; and the Muhjahadeen gave birth to al-Qaeda only after the Cold War ended and jihad to create a fundamentalist Islamic super state replaced jihad to evict the Russians. It may be ironic that al-Qaeda grew up to bite the hand that once fed it, and the whole affair may display a lack of foresight on the pasrt of 80's policymakers; but that hardly supports the anonymous IP's obvious implication that the US knowingly created the terorist organization. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and boy does this talk page prove it! TexxasFinn 10:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The title should read "September 11, 2001, attacks." The year is parenthetical. It should be set off by two commas, not just one.
66.146.211.71 06:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
By "parenthetical," I did not mean that the year was unimportant or not "integral." The year in the American style is parenthetical in the same way that "Illinois" is parenthetical in "I have lived in Chicago, Illinois, for ten years" or the way that "our first president" is parenthetical in "George Washington, our first president, was very popular after the revolution." There's no negative connotation.
It's a common mistake to use only one comma, but it is a mistake nonetheless. It looks like you're joining two clauses with a comma but no conjunction. In other words, in the sentence "The September 11, 2001 attacks were devastating," it looks like you're trying to make an independent clause out of "2001 attacks were devastating." It doesn't make any sense. 65.107.70.253 19:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following addendum: "The attacks were carried out on a Tuesday--a weekday. As such, most schools and workplaces allowed students and workers to witness the television coverage throughout the day." Also mention something about many students wishing to make telephone calls to relatives, and schools allowing this. 18.243.6.65 07:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Ninjagecko (high school student during the attacks)
I do not understand why the following two sentences begin the fatality section: "One fatality was US-Israeli multi-millionaire Daniel Lewin, an influential figure in the development of the internet and a former member of an elite Israeli anti-terrorist unit. Also aboard Flight 11 the captain, John Ogonowski, is said to have been killed by terrorists before the impact."
It seems to me that the section should immediately emphasize the number of deaths. Pointing out a wealthy individual and how one particular victim was killed seems to undermine that goal; furthermore, it most likely will leave out other influential people. The safe thing could be to emphasize the number of fatalities and their location at the time of their death. Placing two people at the beginning of the section seems to lessen that emphasis. Smackme 20:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
His declaration of a holy war against the United States,[citation needed]
cite Osama bin Laden, “Declaration of War” issued 23AUG1996 [ [19]]
There is a secondary source on PBS.org in the talk page of the wikisource page. 70.134.88.250 05:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Can we please add something along the lines of:
"Despite the US government citing that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks, the FBI have stated that there is no hard evidence connecting him to the attacks. The official FBI 'most wanted' site does not state that Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the 9/11 attacks."
This is very important I think.
Close examination of the videos (I saw it at 1 frame per second) shows quite clearly that a missile was launched from the second plane and suggests that one was launched from the first, both a split second before the actual crash. This was probably to ensure destruction. Slowing down of other footage shows an extra piece of equipment underneath US Flight 175 shortly before impact into the South Tower. This means that somehow, the terrorists had planned in advance and attached these missiles to the airplanes without detection by authorities. It is also possible that they were allowed to, but all we know for certain is that a flash occured between Flight 11 and the North Tower before it crashed and a missile was launched in a similar flash (from a pod attached to the underside of US Flight 175) into the South Tower a split second before the 2nd crash.
Boeing, the manufacturer, when questioned about the extra part on Flight 175, totally refused questions of it, simply saying that the nation's security was at stake.
This can be proven by slowing certain cameras' views of the 2nd crash down enough, and close examination of the 1st crash.
This is very relevant information, and unquestionable fact, so why not add it somewhere in the article?
205.188.116.73 22:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
No, No, don't you get it? The terrorists didn't smuggle the missiles, it's the US Government that did it; the same government that killed JFK, Marilyn Monroe, orchestrated a fake moon landing, and created 'new coke.' Jeez, are you dense.... TexxasFinn 10:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I am a civil engineer with decades of experience designing structures, including skyscrapers. I am sick and tired of [editors] on this page pushing conspiracy theories with no basis in reality. I will comment only on the WTC collapses, as I am an expert. Listen up.
1. Fires absolutely can cause a steel framed skyscraper to collapse. I have seen it with my own eyes. It has happened many times before. We could build them stronger, but they would be more expensive, and less spacious.
2. A collapse such as the 2 that occured on 9/11 can indeed produce molten steel. What happens when you bend a piece of wire? It gets hot. Multiply that by about 500,000 and you can understand that the tremendous mass above the failure point will have more than enough energy to melt steel. I'm surprised there wasn't more molten steel at ground zero.
3. Much has been said about the concrete turning into powder. For god's sake, this lightweight concrete we use is powder and glue, that's it. Drop a chunk of this stuff 10 feet and it will turn to powder, just like that. The concrete in the twin towers fell an average of over 500 hundred feet before it hit the ground. What do you expect would happen?
And so on.
In case any of you [editors] didn't notice, FEMA studied the collapses. That should have been enough, but just to [completely convince everyone], we went and had NIST study it some more. NIST has stated that there is NO EVIDENCE of a controlled demolition. Why would they say such a thing if it wasn't true? This is a democracy, not some third world [country]. Frankly, these fine men and women have much more important things to do than respond to nonsense. Our country is in grave danger until we stamp out terrorism world-wide. We should not spend any more time and resources studying the collapses.
If any of you have specific questions about structure, I am more than happy to answer. I am on board now, please leave the technical aspects of 9/11 related articles to those of us who are qualified to edit them.
[Warmest regards,]
EngineerEd 00:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it OK if I add a mention in the article about how common it is for steel framed structures to collapse from fire? For some reason I can't edit the article. Is this because I'm new? I'd like to edit the collapse article too, but that seems blocked also. Maybe it's just my browser.
EngineerEd 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
For starters, this passage:
There has been much speculation on the "performance" of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and the relevant U.S. government agencies.
Should be changed to something like this:
The cause of the Twin Towers collapses is a well understood, common phenomenon. It is called "global progressive collapse", which has, unfortunately, been observed many times before. The studies by FEMA and NIST have confirmed this, and "debate" continues only amongst non-professionals.
74.128.44.60 04:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Steven Jones' paper is notable as a pop culture phenomenon, and can be mentioned on the appropriate article. The demolition conjecture essentially comes down to an Internet hoax in bad taste. NPOV does not mean putting reality and fantasy on an equal footing. I would like to throw out the following challenge to the believers in demolition: All the alleged "evidence" is something like 'Such-and-such observation looks like a controlled demolition'. Find us one valid example of form 'Such-and-such observation looks like a controlled demolition, and it does not look like a catastrophic structural failure'. Peter Grey 04:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The best source for information on progressive collapse relevant to this article is the NIST report. All you need is in there.
Steven Jones is a theoretical physicist. I think he is an excellent source for the latest musings about alternate dimensions, or time travel. As for the real world, you need to talk to an engineer. Engineers are about making things work in the real world. I have read the Jones paper, and it is just a bunch of nonsense. As I have stated before, there is nothing unusual about pools of molten metal at a disaster site.
We had a tower collapse in Houston Texas in 1992. This was the Fuji tower, 56 stories, which was about 90% complete, when a crane operator (who was on drugs) began operation before his platform was secure, the crane fell over, and triggered a total progressive collapse. I personally saw a pool of molten metal at the site when I came with the insurance investigator.
The collapses of the twin towers did not look like a controlled demolition, if you know what you are looking for. For one thing, the towers EX-ploded, whereas a controlled demolition is an IM-plosion.
EngineerEd 19:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
And a reference for the molten metal just to be fair. SkeenaR 10:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if there is anything on the web about it, but look, I was there. The point is that progressive collapse happens. I wish it didn't, but it does. There was another one in Mexico City that was caused by a fire. True, this fire burned for about 8 hours, and was a different type of design than the twin towers. This building was desinged by the Mexicans and was essentially held up by a series of intersecting arches, getting smaller and smaller as it went up. It was called the Arcos Rincon, very beautiful and innovative. Completely collapsed on one side, and turned to dust.
The point is, this is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. There are plenty of places for people to speculate about conspiracy theories. It is time to stop disgracing the honor of the people who were murdered on 911. Allowing the conspiracy nuts to have any say in this article is a disgrace, a shame. There ought to be something that the honest editors can do about it.
Can't these conspiracy theorists be stopped, or blocked, or shut down? What's more important, letting "everyone" edit these 911 aritlces, or getting it right? I think that getting the facts straight is more important.
24.106.90.250
07:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you can have this article to yourself and then you can fill it with insults, tell everybody how smart you are, and use really dirty emotional propaganda. SkeenaR 10:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Ed made up the stuff about the Fuji Tower and Arcos Rincon. There are no historical examples of "global progressive collapse", or molten metal from a building collapse. EngineerEd is a fake. I'll stake my reputation on it. Ed, I challenge you to provide any substantiation for anything you have said.
I think it is interesting how Morton and Toiyabe are so eager to be "allies" with an obvious fake. TruthSeeker1234 03:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think you could be right. SkeenaR 10:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The official story is a conspiracy theory, one with very little in the way of facts to support it. How and why do 19 Arabs board 4 planes without tickets, for example?
"Engineer Ed" has offered nothing in the way of documentation. He's a fake, I promise. I find nothing at all about either Fuji Tower or Arcos Rincon. It's BS. Ed, you on tonight? Come on. In the meantime, there are reliable mainstream sources (NY Times, FEMA) that have reported molten metal and partially evaportated metal, and very high temperatures achieved. This is interesting stuff, and ought to go in some article somewhere.
Have you heard the latest? Steven Jones has analyzed some samples of WTC slag, it's iron with high concentrations of sulfer, such as what would be produced from thermate. This is consistent with the FEMA metalurgical study which showed the "swiss cheese" appearance of the metal, the "rapid oxidation" and the sulfer content.
Meanwhile the NY Times author Glanz has changed the title of his infamous article from
ENGINEERS ARE BAFFLED OVER THE COLLAPSE OF 7 WTC
"STEEL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN PARTLY EVAPORATED"
to
Engineers Have a Culprit in the Strange Collapse of 7 World Trade Center: Diesel Fuel TruthSeeker1234 06:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
CNN published the flight manifests from all four 9/11 flights a few days after the attacks. There are no Arab names at all. Does MONGO or anyone have any reliable source showing Arab names on any flight manifests? 69.236.23.7 15:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Not millions, but thousands upon thousands of paid scribes, yes. Does that really need explaining? (nice pic!) SkeenaR 10:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
All the 'evidence' cited demonstrates either a fire or a structural failure, both of which are on film and, I hope, undisputed. There is nothing that suggests demolition. Peter Grey 18:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone said, "It is time to stop disgracing the honor of the people who were murdered on 911." I certainly agree with this statement. SO DO SOME OF THE 911 FAMILIES:
Doesnt that quote say the exact opposite of what you are saying? The widow says the conspiracy investigators cared more than the official investigators, and says it is their right to look for the truth. I agree. Fritzz44 09:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Additional unusual behaviors observed for WTC2 included the correlated smoke puffs observed over large areas of the façade and over the roughly one-minute periods during which the smoke flows increased DRAMATICALLY, often accompanied by external flames. These events were usually most evident on the 79th and 80th floors of the east face, but could often be detected on other floors and faces as well. At least 65 occurrences of smoke puffs were documented along with 7 times when the one-minute long smoke releases took place. The evidence suggests that these smoke puffs resulted from PRESSURE PULSES generated within the tower and transmitted to other locations. It is considered likely while these pressure pulses were of sufficient magnitude to affect smoke flows over multiple floors, they were much too small to affect the tower's structural components. For most of the smoke puffs, there was no visual indication of the event that generated the pressure pulse or its location. In a few cases, such as when WHEN MOLTEN METAL POURED from the tower, circumstantial evidence indicated that the puffs WERE ASSOCIATED with specific observed events. - NIST NCSTAR 1-5, WTC Investigation (p.p.36-38)
The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an INTRIGUING event at 9:37:04 a.m. A jet of air, dust, and A LARGE PIECE OF DEBRIS WAS EJECTED from a window, 77-355, on the 77th floor at AN EXTREMELY HIGH VELOCITY. Longer distance videos show that puffs of smoke and/or dust appeared simultaneously on the east face from several open windows near the center of the 78th floor and from open windows on the north side of the 79th floor. Interestingly, the smoke flow from the windows on the west sides of the 79th and 80th floors, which had decreased markedly by this time, did not increase. Within 14s of this release, a large fire either grew or became visible near the center of the east face on the 82nd floor. A long distance video shot from the south showed that fire and smoke were pushed from multiple locations on the south face at the same time the strong jet occurred on the 77th floor of the east face. -NIST NCSTAR 1-5A, WTC Investigation (p. 346)
It has been reported in the FEMA report (McAllister 2002) as well as in the media that what appeared to be MOLTEN METAL WAS OBSERVED POURING from the north face near the northeast corner prior to the collapse of WTC2. This is the area where the sustained fires on the 81st and 82nd had been burning since the aircraft impact. The likely explanation for the observation of pouring liquid is that the material had originally pooled on the floor slab above, i.e., the 81st floor, and that it was allowed to pour out of the building when the floor slab in the immediate vicinity either pulled away from the spandrel or sank down to the point where the window was exposed. The puff of smoke and/or dust just prior to the release of the material occurred suddenly, in the process creating a PRESSURE PULSE that forced smoke and/or dust out of open windows over three floors.[...]
There was another release of smoke and/or dust from near the east edge of the north face at 9:52:38 a.m. Immediately afterward, the spot near the top of window 80-255 brightened considerably. At 9:52:47 a.m. a series of three much LARGER PRESSURE PULSES, which took place over 35s, pushed smoke and/or dust from several locations on multiple floors of the north face. These locations included those described above, the two areas on the north side of the 83rd floor where fires were burning, the vicinity of the pile of debris near the center of the 79th floor, an area of newly observed fire on the 79th floor near windows 79-209 to 79-213, and the opening of the northeast corner of the 81st floor. The fire burning near the center of the 79th floor flared up noticeably. Immediately following one of the pressure pulses (at 9:52:48 a.m.) intense flames suddenly reappeared in windows 91-301 and 81-302 on the east face just to the south of the northeast corner of the 81st floor. At roughly the same time, part of the debris lodged at the northeast corner of the 81st floor fell out of the opening. Relatively small amounts of MOLTEN MATERIAL POURED from window 80-255 NEAR THE START AND THE END OF THE series of PRESSURE PULSES. Videos show that smoke was also expelled from windows near the north edges of the 79th and 80th floors of the east face during these pressure pulses. NISTNCSTAR 1-5A Chapter 9 Appendix C p.p. 375-376 (pdf p.p. 79-89)
At 9:53:41 a.m. and 9:53:46 a.m. two pressure pulses forced additional smoke from windows on the north face. Both of these occurrences were ACCOMPANIED BY SHORT FLOWS OF MOLTEN MATERIAL from the same window, 80-255, on the 80th floor observed earlier. The largest flow occurred during the second release. Figure 9-75 shows a view of the northeast corner of WTC2 taken from a video at 9:53:51 a.m. The BRIGHT MOLTEN STREAM flowing from the top of windows 80-255 IS PROMINENT.
An image of the north face taken at 9:55:18 a.m. is shown in Figure 9-76. The image was shot 1 min 45s after the one shown in Figure 9-74. The fire distributions are very similar in the two photographs, with the exception of the fire on the 82nd floor to the right of the cold spot in Figure 9-76. As discussed above, the fire was first observed at 9:53:47 a.m. burning in windows 82-234 to 82-337. At 9:55:18 a.m. flames were visible in windows 82-231 to 82-236, and flames were coming out of windows 82-233. The bright spot at the top of window 80-255 is visible on the 80th floor, but there is no obvious molten liquid flow at this time. Unlike in the earlier photograph, fire is now visible in the adjacent window, 80-256. During the next several minutes, following the two pressure pulses around 9:53:45 a.m., numerous pressure pulses were noted that pushed smoke from open windows on the north and east faces of WTC2.
A particularly STRONG PRESSURE PULSE started at 9:56:11 a.m. It lasted nearly 10s. This particular pulse was strong enough to push flames from the tower at many locations. Following a pressure pulse at 9:56:31 a.m., the flames present on the 81st floor in the northeast corner opening and nearby flames on the north face abruptly died down. The large flame in window 81-301 on the east face also declined within 2s. All of these flames reappeared after a few seconds. At 9:57:21 a.m., shortly after another pressure pulse, the BRIGHT LIGHT reappeared at the top window, 80-255, on the 80th floor from which the FLOW OF MOLTEN METAL had been observed earlier. Almost immediately, it appeared to jump one window to the east, i.e., to window 80-256. Five seconds later a LIGHT FLOW OF MOLTEN METAL began pouring out of window 80-256. THE FLOW OF MATERIAL from this window WOULD NOW BE NEARLY CONTINUOUS UNTIL THE TOWER COLLAPSED. At 9:57:32 a.m. there was a fairly intense pressure pulse within the tower. THE FLOW RATE OF THE MOLTEN METAL INCREASED DRAMATICALLY at this time. p. 383 (pdf p. 87)
Figure 9-77 is a frame from a video that was shot at 9:57:45 a.m. It shows the falling metal as it was approaching the ground. THE LARGE AMOUNT of falling material IS EVIDENT. Most of the molten metal seems to have broken up into small "droplets," but there are a couple of large pieces falling as well. Apparently, the material flowing out of window 80-256 also included pieces of debris that had not fully melted. There was another HEAVY FLOW OF MOLTEN METAL at 9:58:35 a.m. p.384 (pdf p. 88)
Numerous visual observations suggest that IMPORTANT CHANGES, which might have had STRUCTURAL RELEVANCE, were taking place in WTC2 in the period following aircraft impact until collapse. These observations include hanging objects, some of which, based on appearance, may have been locally dislodged floor slabs that had settled down to locations below the spandrel, at several locations on the north and east faces, changes in positions of the hanging objects during the period, the occurrence of numerous PRESSURE PULSES identified by smoke and/or dust puffs generated over multiple windows and floors, the appearance of MOLTEN METAL pouring from the tops of open windows, and bowing of outer steel framework. p.412(pdf 116) http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
"THERMAL IMAGERY OF THE PROGRESSION OF MOLTEN STEEL HOTSPOTS from September 18 to September 25" GeoNews, October, 2001 http://web.gc.cuny.edu/ees/october2001.pdf 58.106.68.81 09:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, MONGO, we would like to add mention of the MOLTEN METAL. You and others have repeatedly denied the existance of molten metal at WTC, and have used every excuse in the book to keep it out. MONGO, why don't you give us a promise not to remove mention of MOLTEN METAL TruthSeeker1234 17:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's see. We have FEMA, NIST, the NY Times, Structural Enginneer and various experts ALL saying there was molten metal. We have photographs and videos of molten metal. We have metalurgical reports. Yet MONGO says there was no molten metal. What exactly is your reputable source for no molten metal MONGO? Please, link us. TruthSeeker1234 20:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Digiterata, add something to the Collapse of the World Trade Center. I've got your back. MONGO and co will revert war, I'm sure. Let's just try and improve the article, make it NPOV, with verifiable reputable sources, and see how it goes. TruthSeeker1234 21:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
1 - Recovery worker reflects on months spent at Ground Zero Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service May 29, 2002 [...] When [Joe] O'Toole signed on for trade center duty in January, he thought it would be a 30-day assignment. But after one month, he volunteered for another. And another. And another. And another. [...] Underground fires raged for months. O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was DRIPPING FROM THE MOLTEN STEEL," he said. -cache http://www.911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/messengerinquirer_recoveryworker.html
2 [...] A veteran of disasters from the Mississippi floods Mt. St. Helens, [Ron] Burger said it reminded him most of the volcano, if he forgot he was in downtown Manhattan. "Feeling the heat, SEEING THE MOLTEN STEEL, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s and the thousands who fled that disaster," he said. "It could have been a tornado or an avalanche or a volcano." Ground Zero was a disaster site like no other—with hazards everywhere. Shards of steel lay upon shards of steel, shifting and unstable, uncovering RED HOT METAL BEAMS excavated from deep beneath layers of sub-floors, exposing further dark crevasses. http://www.neha.org/9-11%20report/index-The.html
3 Ironworkers' Job of Clearing Ground Zero Is Over, but the Trauma Lingers By COREY KILGANNON November 11, 2002 [...] The four men sat on a sunny sidewalk in Greenwich Village on a recent workday and ate their lunch staring at the steel skeleton of a building going up on West Third Street. One of them commented on how much easier it was to eat a sandwich in front of steel that was strong and straight and new, not molten and mangled and laden with debris. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D00E7DE1331F932A25752C1A9649C8B63
4 Reflections in the Wake of September 11: Visit to Ground Zero, New York City by Father Edward A. Malloy, CSC [...] Eddie and I walked down into the depths of the South Tower, Building Two, which was the first to collapse. Large front end loaders were engaged in their task. Gigantic cranes were lifting pieces of steel weighing tons, some of which were being placed on the back of semi trucks. Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500 F. so that WHEN STEEL IS BROUGHT UP IT IS MOLTEN and takes two or three days to cool down. http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/reflect/malloydiary.html
5 RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was RED-HOT, MOLTEN, RUNNING. PBS, September 2002 http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_debris_06.html
6 TWO WEEKS AT GROUND ZERO By Guy Lounsbury [...] My particular part was to help maintain security in and around the perimeter of the site. [...] Two weeks after the attack, one fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers’ remains. home.nycap.rr.com http://home.nycap.rr.com/geljal/Documents/TWO%20WEEKS%20AT%20GROUND%20ZERO.htm
7 At Ground Zero NIH'ers Respond to Tragedy in NYC By Rich McManus Photos by Van Hubbard, Susan Orsega, Rich McManus [...] Ed Pfister's Diary: [...] I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and BOILED WITH MOLTEN MATERIAL. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above. http://www.nih.gov/news/NIH-Record/10_30_2001/story01.htm
8 Reluctant hero narrates horror of N.Y. mission September 11, 2002 [...] Interim Bryan Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho was one of those sent to "ground zero," as the World Trade Center site quickly became known. [...] Here is Donoho’s story, as told to Eagle staff writer John LeBas: [...] What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MOLTEN STEEL and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. We dug and we dug and we dug, and we cut and we cut and we cut, and we did not see anything that resembled any type of furniture, any type of personal belongings. We found some pieces of things like a telephone, things like that. I think we found credit cards a few times, and we found a couple of stuffed animals. But you would expect to see, like, a bunch of desks, a bunch of chairs. The only way I can explain it is, if you take a car and put it in one of those machines where they crush it and make it look like a cube, and you can’t recognize what it is, that’s what the whole area looked like. It looked like A MASSIVE MOLTEN MESS THAT HAD BEEN FUSED TOGETHER, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A LOT of what we were walking on was JUST MOLTEN STEEL. http://www.theeagle.com/septanniv/091102firefighter.htm
9 MAGIC@GROUND ZERO by Ben Robinson edited by David Groves October 17, 2001 On October 4, I was called to do an indoor street performance by the New York City police department. [...]One cop wore an ill-fitting pair of sweat pants and a Grateful Dead T shirt. His "house shoes" would have been rejected by Phyllis Diller. Turns out, after someone works at Ground Zero, their clothes are trashed, and they put on these interim clothes that are piling up in donations. The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal and jet fuel. The health hazards are everywhere: the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies. And, I'm working for these brave souls http://www.illusiongenius.com/11-01.html
10 It is 4 a.m. in New York City as four researchers from the School enter the site of the World Trade Center disaster on foot. Each is lugging from 50 to 90 pounds of air-monitoring equipment onto Ground Zero. In the dark, the tangled pile of wreckage takes on a distinctly hellish cast. "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." John Hopkins Public Health, Late Fall 2001 Magazine http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm
11 They came to help at Ground Zero. What they experienced they can't forget By Marci McDonald [...] Lee Turner, a bewhiskered paramedic, leads a tour with a mix of pride and disdain. For six years, he helped build it, corralling old culvert pipe, rusted refrigerators, and even a wrecked school bus. For six years, he and 185 other members of a federal urban search and rescue squad known as Missouri Task Force 1 (MO-TF1) had trained on it, unpaid, waiting for the call to be deployed. [...] In the predawn darkness of September 12, barely 18 hours after MO-TF1 got the order for its first deployment, he jumped off an Army truck at the World Trade Center site and stared at a smoldering rubblescape that stretched as far as he could see. "There was nothing but acre after acre of twisted steel and this sticky white dust," he recalls. "We'd never seen anything like it." [...] Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–MOLTEN METAL DRIPPING from a beam–but found no signs of life. usnews http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911memories.htm
12 Red Hot Debris. The removal of debris from the collapsed area requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the wreckage are STILL RED-HOT MORE THAN 7 WEEKS AFTER the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. http://www.liro.com/lironews.pdf (app. 1.4meg - includes photo of red-hot beam) 58.106.69.176 12:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The webstite by Schneibster that you refer to proposes a whacky and unofficial gravity pylon driver meltdown theory that doesn't work, and another whacky rubble-foundry explanation exploiting a fantastical 13psf per-floor in combustibles - THREE TIMES NISTs OFFICIAL PER-FLOOR COMBUSSTILBE FUEL LOAD ESTIMATE! The author of the already debunked webpage refuses to acknowlege the official figure. I hope you don't suffer from the same blindsight: "From the floor plans and the combustibility data, it was estimated that the fuel load in the WTC tenant spaces was approximately 20 kg/sq m (4 lb/sq ft). Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-5Draft Futhermore, you failed to explain why the molten metal should not be included in the article HERE: instead, you produced an irrelevant distraction. 58.106.69.176 15:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Below is a block of text from the 9/11 Article for review. I was hoping to include a line or two referencing Molton Metal, but it may be more appropriate to re-write. Thoughts? Digiterata 12:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There has been much speculation on the performance of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and relevant U.S. government agencies. The design of the WTC included many basic innovations distinguishing it from all previous skyscrapers and from many built since citation needed. Although the kinetic energy of the jetliner impacts and the resulting fires were unprecedented in the history of building disasters, some engineers strongly believe skyscrapers of more traditional design (such as New York City's Empire State Building and Malaysia's Petronas Towers) would have fared much better under the circumstances, perhaps standing indefinitely. If they are correct, exceptionally tall buildings that share the WTC's major design elements (for example, Chicago's Sears Tower and John Hancock Center) could be considered particularly vulnerable citation needed. 7 World Trade Center collapsed in the late afternoon of September 11. (See [[7 World Trade Center#The Collapse|7 World Trade Center]] for more details).
Regarding, "The design of the WTC included many basic innovations distinguishing it from all previous skyscrapers and from many built since citation needed", could someone please explain what this means and provide a citation? I don't understand.
Regarding the last two sentences beginning with, "Although the kinetic energy.." and "If they are correct.." again we need some citations here supporting these claims. Otherwise we may need to re-write. Suggestions? Digiterata 14:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
After re-reading this passage, it came to my attention that it might make sense to begin with the factual details of the collapse. Specifically:
9/11 Chronology of Events: WTC Complex (All times are EDT) 8:45 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 crashes into the north tower of the World Trade Center. 9:03 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 crashes into the south tower of the World Trade Center. 10:05 a.m.: The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, plummeting into the streets below. A massive cloud of dust and debris forms and slowly drifts away from the building. 10:28 a.m.: The north tower of the World Trade Center collapses from the top down as if it were being peeled apart, releasing a tremendous cloud of debris and smoke. 4:10 p.m.: Building 7 of the World Trade Center complex is reported on fire. 5:20 p.m.: Building 7 of the World Trade Center complex collapses. The evacuated building is damaged when the twin towers across the street collapse earlier in the day. Other nearby buildings in the area remain ablaze. Source: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/chronology.attack/
Suggested Text - Feel free to be bold and make changes or suggestions here:
Three buildings in the World Trade Center Complex collapsed due to structural failure on the day of the attack. The south tower (WTC 2) fell at approximately 10:05am, after burning for 58 minutes in a fire caused by the impact of United Airlines Flight 175 at 9:03am. The north tower (WTC 1) fell at 10:28am, after burning approximately 103 minutes in a fire caused by the impact of American Airlines Flight 11 at 8:45am. A third building (WTC 7) also collapsed at 5:30pm, after burning for at least 70 minutes and being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers a short distance away. There has been much speculation on the performance of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects, and relevant U.S. government agencies.
Here is a start, please speak up! Would like to know if this passage is acceptable so far? Digiterata 21:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Please respond here if you would like to comment on this inclusion. Digiterata 22:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Per discussion above, this is a placeholder to gather the thoughts of the community of contributors and readers of the 9/11 Talk page on the subject of including reference to Molten Metal found in the debris of ground zero after the attacks of 9/11. Please Be Bold! and share your thoughts. Peace. Digiterata 00:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
But hey, Peter, if you want to join us and put molten metal in the article, for whatever reason, welcome to the pro-science camp!
TruthSeeker1234 00:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Peter, I'm sorry, but are you trying to sound nonsensical? First off, we're not trying to foist any particular theory of "who did it". We're trying to include mention of the molten metal which is observed, photographed, videotaped, and confirmed in numerous mainstream sources.
The yellow-to-white-hot stuff looks very much like liquid iron or steel, molten aluminum is silvery grey. Yellow-to-white hot is plenty hot enough to be steel or iron. If you have other ideas about what it could be, speak up.
If you are interested in the theory, it would be this: Thermate was used to cut through steel columns at various key points, then high explosives were triggered in sequence, completing the collapse. All of the available evidence is consistent with this scenario. If you have evidence which contradicts this scenario, please bring it. TruthSeeker1234 03:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Come on Peter, try harder. Such vacuous retorts embolden us. TruthSeeker1234 05:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
No confusion needed. The NIST is lying. Remember, the executive branch of the U.S. Federal government is the prime suspect in the alternative theory. It's like asking John Gatti to report on the Mafia. I have stated many times that the NIST is not a reliable source for the collapse of the WTC buildings, because they admit in plain English that they did not study the collapses, only the events leading up to the collapses. FEMA is not reliable because they destroyed the freaking evidence, and are not an investigative agency anyway.
But that's me. Wikipedia is another matter. Consensus here is that NIST and FEMA are reliable sources. So I use them. Now, my conscience forces me to point out falsehoods when I see them. The molten metal cannot be aluminum, because it's the wrong color. It's like the 9/11 commission report, which says that the core of each tower was "a hollow steel shaft". It's just a lie. I don't like lies, because I am a truthseeker. TruthSeeker1234 05:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Correct Peter. As far as the articles go, we're just trying to get verifiable facts in, not the "whodunnit". The rest of the stuff was in response to your questions, which I answered. I have made my views known in the interest of full disclosure, and drawn a clear distinction between what I think (NIST/FEMA are liars when it suits them) and what the consensus of WP editors think (NIST/FEMA is unquestioned gospel).
Despite best efforts at destruction of all evidence, enough hard evidence survives to raise very serious doubts about the entire official story. Yet all the physical evidence is perfectly consistent with controlled demolition. Peter, can you please list one observation which is inconsistent with controlled demoltion? Thank You. TruthSeeker1234 19:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"These exterior walls bore most of the weight of the building.The interior core of the buildings was a hollow steel shaft, in which elevators and stairwells were grouped." [21]. See [22] for amusement.
To understand why the stuff coming out of WTC2 cannot be aluminum, you have to have your thinking hat on. Aluminum melts at about 1220 F. This is dull red-hot, but because of its reflectivity, tends to retain its silver appearance. See [23] In a container, you can heat aluminum up to orange (1725F), even yellow hot. See [24]. You would need a container to do this. If you had a pile of aluminum airplane parts and a hot enough fire, the aluminum would melt when it reached about 1220F, then it would flow away from the heat, long before it was anywhere close to yellow hot.
Aluminum is highly reflective, with low emmissivity, so in daylight it tends to retain its silver color, regardless of the color of light being emmitted.
For these reasons it is highly unlikely that the stuff coming out of the south tower is aluminum.
TruthSeeker1234 16:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Whatever do you mean MONGO? [User:TruthSeeker1234|TruthSeeker1234]] 00:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's take this over to the Collapse of the World Trade Center TruthSeeker1234 04:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
molten metals viscosity for dummies: http://melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/metals_viscosity.gif 58.106.69.176 13:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what a SAT word is - my dictionary lists SAT as the past tense of SIT. You sound like a potty-mouthed, ignorant, juvenile tool, MMX. I suppose a pissing contest by juveniles about the use of words is always better than discussing the ABUNDANCE OF MOLTEN evidence. Good "work", MMX. 58.106.69.176 16:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC) addendum: thank you, doorjam, for your integrity. 58.106.69.176 16:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
It was a typo - if you look carefully, you will see that JAMMER managed to look up the correct typing that I had deployed already. I see that pissing contests about words and typos, rather than THE ABUNDANCE OF MOLTEN METAL AND ITS INCLUSION IN THE MAIN ARTICLE, is your raison d'être, MMX. I also retract my hasty "thanks" to JAMMErR who is doing a fine job as a JAMMER, trying to goad people into discussions about his personal theory of molten metal INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING WHY IT SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED IN THE ARTICLE. 58.106.69.176 16:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
If you want to pretend that aluminum has a new property of low-viscosity when molten, I don't really care - it is not "new research", but a factual and intractable property of the element - http://transp.eng.auth.gr/iatp/Al_Viscosity.pdf - but I don't care if you wish to pretend, I really don't. ALL I CARE is that the FACT that an ABUNDANCE of MOLTEN METAL was CASCADING FROM THE TOWER prior to collapse, and AN EVEN MORE STAGGERING QUANTITY of MOLTEN METAL WAS OBSERVED, PHOTOGRAPHED, REPORTED AND THERMALLY MAPPED at GROUND ZERO. I don't care about the explanation for it - just stop HIDING IT FROM THE PEOPLE.
And if you want to block my IP, JAMMER, for using EXACTLY THE SAME ABUSIVE POTTY-MOUTHED TERMS that are apparently KOSHER FOR MMX to deploy at its leisure, then PLEASE GO AHEAD AND EXPOSE YOUR DOUBLE-STANDARDS TO THE AUDIENCE HERE. Don't send PRIVATE BEHIND-THE-SCENES THREATS. OKAY? Just DO IT - permanently. 58.106.69.176 17:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, but what about the molten steel/iron observed, reported, documented, photographed at ground zero? Please, without the personal attacks, could anyone please explain why it should not go in the article? We have multiple mainstream sources.
TruthSeeker1234 18:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I am unclear on a couple things here. The case for Molton Metal observations at the WTC site has met the test for verifiability with multiple references from reliable sources including both NIST and FEMA as well as numerous mainstream media accounts. But Molten Metal is to be excluded primarily because it "... could possibly be used {by the lunatic fringe conspiracy theorists} as a lever to eventually include speculation that ..." {Subtext Implied by editor}
By that same reasoning, I really ought to remove my earlier factual contribution to The Collapse section of this article [ [25]]. Facts can be dangerous things For example the timeline may be used in future by lunatic conspiracy theorists, or possibly even ordinary rational truthseeking Wikipedians, as a wedge to point out the fact that by all accounts, with the exception of the Fuji Tower and the Archos Ricon, no modern steel reinforced building has EVER collapsed due to fire alone certainly not after burning for little more than an hour. We are still patiently waiting for verifiable confirmation of those from EngineerEd, Morton devonshire, MONGO and the rest of their allies on those or any other buildings which might have fallen in a Global Progressive Collapse,
Tom, Peter and co, please explain exactly what the test is for inclusion here? If I understand correctly, your primary opposition to the inclusion of MOLTEN METAL is that including it might possibly lead to facts that do not support the official account of events entering the article. And your primary rationale for that opposition is that allowing even a single fact that does not support the official account of events into this article, could possibly lead to others? We can meet your tests for Original Research, Secondary Sources, and even Due Weight - but there are certain facts that do meet the test for inclusion which can never meet the test for agreeing with the official account I hope everyone on this page understands the difference and what it means for Wikipedia.
Please clarify this for me as I'm starting to believe my contributions aren't welcome here [26]. Maybe Wikipedia would be better off if we went back to this version [27] which is nice and vague and won't risk raising too many questions. Digiterata 01:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)'
It's very simple Digiterata. What goes in is anything that is relevant, interesting, and backed by a reputable source. What is a reputable source? Why, it's whatever TomHarrison and MONGO say it is. In this case, they say it is anything which supports the official version of events. What if there are conflicting data from reputable sources? Then we must rely on the undue weight clause. Which items are excluded under the undue weight clause? Why, it's whatever MONGO and TomHarrison say. What about NPOV? Forget NPOV. NPOV is not important here in this article. We must NOT use the neutral point of view, because that would violate the undue weight clause, and might mention unreputable sources. Just ask Tom Harrison and MONGO.
Want to test the theory? I'm game Digiterata. Put some facts in the article . I'll back you, and so will other truthseekers. Eventually MONGO and co. will block us, but I think it is important that we try. Ethics and the scientific method demand it. -TruthSeeker1234
69.236.23.7 07:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to have to be an asshole, but the debate is over. You conspircay theorists, in all honesty, simply don't know what you are talking about. Morton is correct, the "Scholars" for 9/11 "Truth" do not emply the scientific method. Let me explain what the scientific method means. Scientific method means that qualified professionals, such as me, explain the situation to unqualified ameteurs. That is why we have journals. We explain it, you listen.
9/11 has been studied, and studied, and studied again. This was almost 5 years ago. Please, in honor of the victims, stop this madness, stop supporting the terrorists. Grow up, get a life, and allow this article to be finished. You have a page called "9/11 conspiracy theories". Go nuts there. Please stop dishonoring the dead. They deserve better. EngineerEd 03:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey, guys why dont you go and waste this wiki: [29]. Im sure youll agree it reads like something i would write... -- Striver 19:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The disputed tag is being added to the article to reflect how this is one of the top controversial articles in Wikipedia. Elfguy 15:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Excluding the conspiracy theory fairy tales, which are not in good faith, there does not seem to be any genuine dispute of the content of the article.
Peter Grey
23:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The official stories are conspiracy theories. Which fairy tales are you talking about? That Hani Honjour and his co-conspirators somehow boarded a jet with no tickets, overwhelmed the pilots, somehow navigated all the way from Ohio to the Pentagon, somehow entered the code to turn the transponder off, somehow avoided air defenses, somehow made the 270 degree downward spiral, (thus avoiding the easy approach where the top brass had offices), and executed the tree-top approach at full speed, somehow defeating ground effect, and crashed at ground level into the only part of the building that was mostly evacuated and heavily reinforced?
Or which fairy tales?
Like a gravitational collapse somehow contains enough energy to pulverize a building into pyroclastic clouds of dust?
Or which ones? Clarify please.
TruthSeeker1234 01:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Peter, controlled demolitions have occurred many time, entire companies specialize in them. To characterize this as improbable is disingenous. It is backwards. Controlled demolition has a distinct scientific advantage over any other explanation, because they have actually occured, and are well understood. All other explanations require new theories, new science.
Here are two nice papers with the some of the energy calculations
[30] and [31] TruthSeeker1234 07:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm willing to look at anyone's energy calculations about the dust clouds or whatever. Where are they? Also, just so ya know, I don't consider al Qa'ida to be a "neutral" source. They are a suspect in this whole deal. But so are top officials in the Bush administration. We don't trust government sources to be "neutral". Any scientists out there NOT on the government payroll? Not too many. TruthSeeker1234 00:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Please give me a link to a catastrophic failure which resembles 9/11 in any of the important respects - sudden onset, symmetry, collapse times, pulverization, squibs, horizontal ejection, pyroclastic flows, bright flashes, molten metal, eyewitness reports of explosions. Thanks. Here's a promise. If you can show me a natural collapse that comes anywhere close to resembling 9/11, I will stop editing all 9/11 articles forever. TruthSeeker1234 00:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Which is a longwinded way of admitting that nothing in history remotely resembles what happened on 9/11, except all of the controlled demoltions, which for some strange reason are very much like what happened on 9/11.
Huysman starts out by stating there was no molten steel at the WTC, but there are photographs and multiple published reports of molten steel, as we've been though a dozen times. The stuff in the photo cannot be aluminum, because aluminum would be a runny liquid. And he goes from there.
I ask everyone now to look at this picture [32] and answer this question for me: The collapse is about half-over, and it appears that most of the material from above has been converted to dust, and has been ejected outside the footprint. At the point in time this photo was taken, where is the mass pushing down on the intact, undamaged structure?
And what is the explanation for the dust which is going upwards?
TruthSeeker1234 04:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm tired of listening to your crap about bad faith. Go ahead and tell me my argument about undue weight was done in bad faith. SkeenaR 16:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The table lists 45 fatalities for flight 93 (including passengers and hijackers), but the Flight 93 page puts the number at 44. One of these is incorrect.
What's happened to this article? The last time I saw it it looked something like this [33], and the word terrorism was avoided because it's clearly a loaded term. Now we have it smattered all around the intro like some sort of propaganda campaign. I mean, honestly, "Approximately 3,000 people died in these terrorist attacks." ? You may as well say "Approximately 3,000 people died in these evil attacks by cruel-hearted, Jesus-hating Islamic boogeymen." The word is just plastered all around needlessly. I thought a long time ago people on this talk page showed significant disagreement as to its usage and decided it should only be applied by 3rd party sources, rather than by flatly defining it as terrorism. Do we lose anything by removing the word "terrorist" in the intro? Can't we just say that 3,000 people died in the attacks, or that they were coordinated attacks? I don't take issue with saying that popular media reported the acts as terrorism, but using it like we do here is POV. Sarge Baldy 02:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn’t seem to be updated at all?
There is no section about WTC 7? Which is unbelievable to say the least. Why is there no word about NIST's admittance of freefall with regards to that building?
[35],
[36]
There is no section about advance knowledge? Which is unbelievable to say the least… Why is there no mention of warnings, memos, put options..?
[37]
There is no section about torture of the alleged hijackers and other suspects, not a word about criminal destruction of related tapes
[38] and so on… all this is lacking in this article which is one of the most biased articles I've seen on wiki since it was born.
All of this should have been added to the article at the very moment reliable and verifiable sources surface.
I thought that Wikipedia is financed by the world wide community and I'm shocked and awed by the fact that this article still looks as if it was written by NSA or Pentacon.
Here is something that should have been referenced as as soon as verifiable reference occurred.
"We tortured Qahtani," DawnisuponUS ( talk) 12:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
If there are truly omissions, I suggest that it is because it is all too easy to divert material to
9/11 conspiracy theories or dismiss new findings as material that belongs there.
On the other hand, your citation belongs nowhere near this article. It would be suitable for inclusion, if it is not included already, in the
Mohammed al Qahtani and related articles. Note that you can use the link under Toolbox (bottom left): "What links here" to find related articles, although of course this is a one-way search.
Anarchangel (
talk)
20:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
So who is diverting and turning facts into conspiracy? And why? DawnisuponUS ( talk) 23:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)