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There is no section dealing with the flight of a gray C130 Naval electronics warfare aircraft by Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien of the Minessota Air National Guard that was seen by at least 13 witnesses shadowing fligh 77 prior to impact. The same C-130 was also present when flight 93 crashed. Just because the goose-stepping media refuses to present the compiled facts, it doesn't mean that Wiki should follow suit. 58.106.64.57 06:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The LA Times headline on September 11, 2001 was "Attacks Held To Be A Conspiracy." An article in the New Jersey Bergen Record describing five Israeli men in an explosives-tainted moving van with "maps linking them to the bombing plot" was titled "Five Men Detained As Suspected Conspirators." This Wikipedia page on the September 11 attacks describes a rather implausible conspiracy theory about causation. The word "conspiracy" is not a pejorative. That said, considering the seizure and suppression of all Pentagon impact footage, the significance of the C-130 is best described in the words of two witnesses published in Arlington's Daily Press: "The second plane looked similar to a C-130 transport plane ... it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar--while at the same time--guiding the jet toward the Pentagon." (Keith Wheelhouse, Daily Press, September 14, 2001); "Thank God somebody else saw that ... It's so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they're hiding it for some reason." (Kelly Knowles, Daily Press, September 15, 2001). C-130 witness compendium 58.106.64.57 18:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be a section on the "racial discriminations against muslims following the attacks," which is pretty significant and widely publicized.-- Ryz05 06:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
How about something like this: "Following the attacks, 80,000 Arab and Muslim immigrants were fingerprinted and registered, 8,000 Arab and Muslim men were interviewed, and 5,000 foreign nationals were detained [1]."
Can add it? 86.131.205.124 11:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Andy
I found this fairly well done 9/11 tribute on google video. Maybe we could use this discussion to propose additions to the media section. Bubba61389 03:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3380474950135485800
Incidentally, I'd like to humbly suggest the addition of Loose Change to the videos area, as is the intent of this subheading. Cathal
Loose Change is not a reliable source, it is an hour and a half of bad science and begging the question from personal ignorance.
Jefffire
17:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to argue this. The same can be said of both sides of the argument, and calling one side stupid and the other correct is both childish and simple-minded. The video cites references, and makes fewer assumptions than others I could mention. The thrust in Loose Change is the questions, not the answers. And I prefer open questions to questionable answers. Cathal 17:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually my point was that there was as much information to be gleaned from it as from the official information. How much weight you put in both is a matter of preference, but neither can be relied upon for the answer. Difference is, one side is trying to offer one, and the other is looking for proof. The point of videos such as Loose Change is not that they offer an explanation, but that they highlight the suspicion around the official one. For the record, your previous assertion that it was bad science is quite wrong. The two major points in Loose Change and in the arguments it is based upon are thus:
Regardless of your "allegiances", should you attempt to define them, reasoned debate cannot dispatch these facts. It's not bad science, because it is BASIC science. Cathal
In any case, I was not presenting a POV initially. I would like for Loose Change, as a video that, disregarding personal preferences, is influential and important in the debate, be included in the "Videos" section. I was going to do so myself, but apparently I have to get it vetted here. It is informative but not definitive, and presents a point of view: Exactly as all of the current ones in the list do. Cathal 18:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Capital loves a bit of Genocide -- max rspct leave a message 02:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
If the theories outlined in Loose Change are, in fact, "requested from experts," then this is news to me, after watching it twice. No one in the video ever claimed to have any kind of engineering credentials. To my knowledge, the only person with any academic credentials who is on board with the conspiracy theorists is Stephen Jones, whose other research activities include searching for evidence of Jesus' supposed visit to North America. [3]
68.254.115.174 13:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)While I have not yet viewed [4], I have read Professor Jones' peer-reviewed article "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?" available at [5]. And, while you can attempt to disregard Professor Jones' as a 'conspiratorialist' by referencing his research above, please remember that the Mormon religion believes in the possibility that Jesus appeared in America. To investigate this possibility does not alter Professor Jones' credentials as a qualified expert to investigate the physics of the collapses on 9/11. 68.254.115.174 13:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, you do have to be an expert to understand the tangled web of physics that is involved in the collapse of a high-rise building. For example, let's take one of the issues raised in Loose Change you mentioned above (the bolded numbering is mine):
(1)The buildings simply could not have collapsed from a plane impact or burning fuel: The melting point of normal steel is far exceeding the burn temperature of aircraft fuel, and this steel was not normal. (2)And even if they did melt, resulting in collapse; the building could not then have fallen at freefall velocities, as its own resistance would have slowed it considerably.
(1) was addressed a while ago in an article published in Scientific American.
For example, according to www.911research.wtc7.net, steel melts at a temperature of 2,777 degrees Fahrenheit, but jet fuel burns at only 1,517 degrees F. No melted steel, no collapsed towers. "The planes did not bring those towers down; bombs did," says www.abovetopsecret.com. Wrong. In an article in the Journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society and in subsequent interviews, Thomas Eagar, an engineering professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, explains why: steel loses 50 percent of its strength at 1,200 degrees F; 90,000 liters of jet fuel ignited other combustible materials such as rugs, curtains, furniture and paper, which continued burning after the jet fuel was exhausted, raising temperatures above 1,400 degrees F and spreading the inferno throughout each building. Temperature differentials of hundreds of degrees across single steel horizontal trusses caused them to sag--straining and then breaking the angle clips that held the beams to the vertical columns. Once one truss failed, others followed. When one floor collapsed onto the next floor below, that floor subsequently gave way, creating a pancaking effect that triggered each 500,000-ton structure to crumble.
As for (2), it is explained in detail in the Journal of Engineering by a couple of faculty from Northwestern University's engineering department. [6] I can't paste the relevant section here because the mathemtics are getting mangled in the process, but you can find it for yourself at the bottom right of page 7. It is titled Didn’t Plastic Deformations "Cushion" the Vertical Impact? -- rehpotsirhc █♣█ ▪ Talk 20:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone pasted this link Loose Change 911 - What really happened on 911. which was removed for not being mentionned on the Talk page - it is a must ad since it is by far the most well done and patriotic video ever to be released about 911. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.82.42 ( talk • contribs)
Loose Change should be dismissed because it is deliberately flawed, and because it is inescapably promoted by counter intelligence professionals for that very reason - including good PR courtesy of FOX News. Let me repeat that: good PR courtesy of FOX. But
this raw and continuous footage -(app.10Mb)- shows
a glowing stream of molten metal gushing, in a most spectacular fashion, from a corner of the South tower, approximately 1 minute prior to its collapse.
Can anyone think of a reason for not including a link to this footage in the main article?
Confabulous
11:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Digiterata (Normal Nick):This is supposed to be a stub to summarize the arguments in the conspiracy article, not to present evidence they cite. This has been established as consensus repeatedly. Stop adding material to the article to support your POV. -- Mmx1
I dunno, how about this? [7] [8]. Sure seemed like you were pointing your sig to his talk page.
My god, we've been over this countless times. Your conspiracy views are not significant. They are a minority and refuted viewpoint based on pseudoscience and we are under no obligation to include them. Not all views are equal -- Mmx1 19:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
As a fresh voice in the crowd I'm hoping my viewpoint can be helpful in some way to the discussion rather than simply fuelling the fire. Wikipedia is an Encylcopaedia, and as such, attempts to present facts. Facts are confirmed and conclusively proven explanations to model real life events or systems. Something cannot be considered a hard fact if there are errors, holes or reasonable arguments against the explanation backing it up.
Here I am going to present facts, as an example of what this article actually has to build upon: This is not an argument for either side, this is a sample list. If it is incomplete, then I'm sorry, but that's not the point. Please read with a mind to reviewing the number of concrete and provable facts in the article, remembering that neither of the accused's testimony can count as "Proof" when they are themselves under suspicion
I am here going to present as many Facts as I can about the events, including those from both sides of the argument. Regardless of my views on the topic, please be conscious that I am trying to present as fully as I can the whole picture as it is known. Where they appear, I have not presented burning/melting/vapourising temperatures here, as they are readily available to those seeking them, and I feel they may serve to make this list appear biased, regardless of their factual content.
With respect to the Two Towers of the World Trade Centre, NY:
With regard to the Pentagon and damage done thereunto:
I will not attempt to present facts for the events surrounding the alleged fourth plane, as there are no definitive facts surrounding that dispute.
On the Behaviour of both Alleged conspirators, the US Government and Osama Bin Laden:
Note here that I have excluded video evidence about Osama bin Laden for the same reason as with the "Fourth Plane": there is nothing conclusive that can be said about either viewpoint as the veracity of the videos cannot be confirmed, regardless of their source. For more information on the tapes themselves one need only look them up on google, or see Videos of bin Laden.
If this seems POV, I tried to avoid it. Perhaps that says something. I am not going to offer an explanation or an opinion. I am simply making a point that I would like both sides of this argument to consider, remembering that this is not the place to make assertions about which viewpoint is correct: This is Wikipedia. And here, we present what facts are known. Unfortunately for Wikipedia, the facts available on this event are ambiguous at best and little can be said for certain about the event overall. Wikipedia must present the facts in total and represent both sides of the argument. It must then leave it to the reader to come to an informed, reasoned decision either way.
My suggestion regarding this article is simplistic and neutral: According to the NPOV policy, this article should represent both sides of the debate. Either make a new article which represents both sides of the argument, or make a parent page that represents neither view, but links to sister pages for the two explanations. In a perfect world these sister pages would cross link to one another to present an overall, point-for-point breakdown of everything significant that can be known about the event. Furthurmore, I agree with the view that using "Conspiracy Theory" to describe the alternate viewpoint(s) is a frame, and that it intentionally or unintentionally leads the viewer to view the alternate view more critically than is fair. Given that both viewpoints allege conspiracy, albiet by different groups, one could argue that both be placed under this heading (As one comically bitter essayist has done [10].
It should have a neutral nomenclature in a topic as serious as this one, such as:
Or something with a similar lack of colour.
As mentioned above, the crux of this message, aside from the suggestions given just previously, is to demonstrate how little is known. There's also a large problem looming over this debate re:the article: Much of the informations represented in the article is based upon information written/released/put forward by one of the possible attackers of the USA; the government itself.
Can Wikipedia accept and use information put forward by one of the parties in question? As a hypothetical exercise, imagine how you'd like to see all of the information in this article be instead based upon official statements from Osama Bin Laden? Would the testimony of one of the possible attackers be acceptable as evidence?
I realise there's no easy solution to this problem, as the common perception of the "event" is what the government has detailed about it, and as I've tried to demonstrate, neither viewpoint can be conclusively demonstrated with the information available to Wikipedia. Only by presenting both views critically and in tandem can a truly neutral article be written.
Silencing one side of the argument will achieve nothing but giving it more allure. Shouting down the other side of the argument will achieve nothing more than elevating the dispute.
I am going to add another heading. Anyone hoping to contribute should try to keep their opinions neutral and avoid flaming and trolling. Any statements made should not be conjecture: While commonly known facts are no issue, if you want to make a valid point, please cite reference. And please, please remember: This is a talk page about the article, not the event itself. Discuss what Wikipedia should show and what wikipedia shouldn't, after reading and considering the NPOV guidelines presented by the good people of Wikipedia itself.
This has been an exhaustive and overly verbose message from Cathal 17:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Disputed Tag: The (Disputed) tag was added in response to issue of specific facts being intentionally omitted from the article primarily because these facts do not correspond to the official story. That issue hasn't changed. Therefore I have added back the Tag. For specific examples see above comments by Cathal under Facts and Nothing But or see my [User:Digiterata|Talk]] page.
If you haven't done so, please read the latter part of the above article. Cathal 17:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC) Consider this my vote to include either:
And to eliminate usage of the word "Conspiracy", leaving two "Theories", for neutrality's sake. Cathal 17:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
When the attacks occured, I remember clearly that the first group of people claming responsibilty for this senseless attack was the Kashmir militants. It was on the Singapore television on Channel NewsAsia. It seems that the whole world ignored this confession soon after. Does anyone remember anything about this or am I just dreaming? Or is their confession proven to be a hoax? Should this be included in the article? This has been bugging me for nearly 5 years now and the attention has shifted fully on Osama bin Laden's involvement. Any comments would be deeply appreciated. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 20:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I am grateful that you apologized for the defamatory slur, Mongo, and for providing proof for your theory of collapse instead of just supporting evidence. Your reference describes a phone call placed before Atta boarded the plane, not during the flight as you had asserted. Thanks for correcting your mistake and providing a source.
I hope you have read Alen Cleveland's testimony, and I hope that you will consider including sections on
The addition of these documented facts would be a courtesy to all readers who expect more than the disputed and very controversial government POV that has been presented, in a rather faith-based kind of way, here at wikipedia . Thanks in anticipation.
58.106.64.57
10:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
p.s. I created an acccount and will sign in henceforth.
Confabulous
11:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems like we are starting to repeat the discussion that miraculously went away during the mediation cabal scrutiny. Let's review some highlights:
This might be a better choice for some content: Blogger: Create your Blog Now -- FREE. I'm just sayin'. Tom Harrison Talk 22:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is everything. -- Cocopuffberman 00:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do there seem to be a new pair of nutties every other week? -- Mmx1 14:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
This page is for discussing changes to the article. It is not a general-purpose web board where any of us can say what he thinks about terrorism, 9/11, conspiracy theories, or each other; especially not each other. Tom Harrison Talk 21:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
"The attacks were widely referred [to] as terrorism by most of the western media." Were they called anything else by anyone else? If some newspaper said they were the acts of noble self-sacrifice by gallant freedom fighters, let's note that, and quote them at length. But whatever else we add, they were terrorist attacks, and we just misinform our readers if we don't say so clearly and distinctly. Tom Harrison Talk 19:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The September 11th attacks have made United States homeland security
concerns much more prominent than they were in the previous decade.
I thought it might be valuable to have a mention of the controversy surrounding the new 9/11 films, which will be first shown at the Tribeca Film Festival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aandrei ( talk • contribs)
I have trimmed the external links section including:
There are a few other "photos" sites that are more personal in nature, that I think should go.
Because Wikipedia is not a link directory, we can't include all personal photo sites, and not sure if/why these two should be. Others agree/disagree with removing these two links? or disagree with any of the other changes above? - Aude ( talk | contribs) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Good day,
Please include on the main page:
To question the validity of these outstanding claims, an increasing number of individuals are asking for further investigation. See 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joetkeck ( talk • contribs) .
I'm not trying to push any one side, since personally I find both the US gov side and the other theories somewhat fishy. But I have to say that there are big holes in both sides, things that can't be explained, and things that are just not physically possible in what the Gov says or what various critics say. What I find disturbing however, is that for a clearly controversial and widely criticized topic, the article spends dozens of pages talking about the official account, and 1 paragraph on the alternate accounts, under the heading "conspiracy" and with a link to the other article. This article should either 1- keep to the facts everyone agree on (planes crashed in the buildings, the buildings collapsed, etc) and keep everything else out, or 2- present all view points with equal footing. I personally prefer the first option, since it's always best for an encyclopedia to stick to the widely accepted facts, and I suggest it be rewritten to be much smaller and much more focus on actual facts rather than the analysis of what, how and why. Elfguy 17:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
You make is sound like these theories were hidden from view. Instead an entire article is given to them. Rather than repeat that article here they are only discussed in brief. - Tεx τ urε 19:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone added the following paragraph, which I have moved here to the talk page, pending further discussion:
Michael Moore implicates the Bush administration in allowing relatives of Osama bin Laden to leave the United States without being thoroughly interviewed by the FBI. In his narration in the movie, Fahrenheit_9/11 Moore states that "At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the Bin Ladens out of the US after September 13th." While private flights were still generally banned at this time, the movie does not mention that the ban on commercial flights was lifted on September 13. Moore has based this on a book by Craig Unger called House of Bush, House of Saud. Passenger lists can be found here. For more info go to Michael Moore Fahrenheit_9/11 Fahrenheit 9/11 controversy Fahrenheit 9/11½ Sequel to Fahrenheit 9/11 September 11, 2001 attacks 9/11 conspiracy theories
Since there is truth [15] to this, it might be worth including a sentence (not a whole paragraph and without the quotes) in this main article. I'm undecided as to where it could fit. Possibly at the in the "International reaction" section, with the following sentence:
This might fit, if we also added some mention of the Saudi government reaction to the attacks. On it's own, it really doesn't fit and perhaps should just be in one of the subarticles. - Aude ( talk | contribs) 21:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know Wikipedia policy is to avoid using this word here:
"The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11 [1] or September 11th) were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks upon the United States of America"
I think we should drop this word. If you look at the name of the article ("September 11, 2001 attacks" not "September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks") and on the page (excluding this sentence) you will see that this sentence conisdered POV by Wikipeida policy. -- Haham hanuka 12:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Compare the intro of this article to: Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, Hezbollah, Revolutionary Organization 17 November, ETA, Irish Republican Army and etc. - those articles represent de facto "terror" policy on Wikipedia. -- Haham hanuka 11:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, new to the forum. I know that you are disputing the word terrorist and whether it should be included. The September 11th attacks were another in the long line of Islamic Fundamenalist attacks, such as the Achille Lauro, Munich 1972, the Dar es Salaam and Nairobi US Embassy bombings, and the USS Cole. These were terrorist acts, and September 11th is one more in the pile. Time to end the debate, we all these were terrorists, planning with a sophisticated network of communications to attack and cause havoc to this nation. They succeeded. The fact that we want to pull the wool over our own eyes, and forget 5 years after the event of what has happened is sickening. ~Tak178
I removed the POV flag because it represents a tiny minority viewpoint that favors a variety of conspiracy theories (even if the proponents do not consider themselves to do so) and because many discussions over many months has repeatedly reached a consensus that a small paragraph and links to the conspiracy pages are the appropriate solution.-- Cberlet 15:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals [25]
Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11? Yes 89% 9447 votes, No 11% 1201 votes [26]
Elfguy 16:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Canada's waging its own War on Terrorism, Operation Apollo in Afghanistan. Should my country be added under the "Primary participants" or "Other important figures"?
User:Raccoon Fox - Talk 21:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The debate over the neutrality of this article and specifically the ommission of facts that do not correspond to the official account of events has been ongoing for sometime. As a compromise, I would like to propose that a short section be added that includes reference to the specific hard facts that are the basis of the criticism. This section should be separate from Conspiracy Theories, and should focus on specific facts that have been previously excluded (see The Facts and Nothing But). The section should only include indisputable facts, not conjecture or analysis of the implications. I'm open to the specific wording of this section, maintaining a high standard for verifiability and accuracy, and discussions about the relevance of specific facts. However, completely excluding this evidence is a blatant NPOV violation.
Examples:
I put forward these examples, for the purpose of discussion. If I am mistaken in calling them facts, please feel free to comment. Digiterata 23:03, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree the issue needs to be presented -- briefly. Some are not quite "facts" yet though
Facts out of context, even correct ones, would probably violate WP:NPOV, especially engineering details that lay people would easily misinterpret. Some of the facts and the questionable conclusions made from them are covered in 9/11 conspiracy theories, but perhaps a better idea might be to have an article dedicated to these sorts of points and providing the explanations or counter-arguments. And who knows, there may well be some valid objective criticism out there. Peter Grey 00:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding telephone calls, here are a couple of references with which you may want to familiarize yourself: satellite phone and How to Use a Phone on an Airplane. (What, no article on airphone? ...rolls up sleeves...) Weregerbil 11:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
What would any "discrepancy" about the phone calls demonstrate? That the entire event was staged or faked? ... or, that sometimes reports are erroneous? Which is more reasonable? -- JimWae 21:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
On the point of short-selling and put option activity suggesting insider-trading on American Airlines, United, and Boeing prior to the attacks, does anyone have an issue with adding a line or two to the article? -- Digiterata 13:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
It is silly to state assumptions and theories as fact simply because the source of the assumptions and theories is credible. When the source is the government which was attacked it is even sillier to do so. I will try to address the most obvious infractions. Neutralizer 03:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Below is an edited version of the intro recently added by Marielleh I've posted it here on Talk because I thought it was quite good for its concise style and NPOV perspective. The article is getting quite verbose and I thought this was quite an improvement. It was recently reverted by another user and I wanted others to see it and comment before it was lost in the revision history. If anyone finds value in this version of the intro, please feel free to move it back to the article.
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11 [1] or September 11th) were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks upon the United States of America carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. The attacks killed approximately 3000 people and destroyed or damaged a number of buildings.
The attacks were carried out by 19 hijackers, who hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners, crashing three into buildings. Two planes were crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan, New York City, and within two hours both towers collapsed. A third hijacked plane crashed into the Pentagon, in Arlington County, Virginia. The fourth plane crashed into a rural field in Somerset County, Pennsylvania. The jet fuel in the planes ignited immediately and burned long enough to cause the contents of the buildings to combust. [39]
Soon after the attacks, the United States accused al-Queda, a fundamentalist islamist organization, for the event. The president George W. Bush launched " War on Terrorism" in response to the attacks, including invasion of Afghanistan and invasion of Iraq. Domestically, the United States goverment created Department of Homeland Security, PATRIOT Act and generally adopted terrorism as the central theme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digiterata ( talk • contribs)
It sucks. Ask for consensus before making edits to the intro. E.g. what's the point of this? "The jet fuel in the planes ignited immediately and burned long enough to cause the contents of the buildings to combust. " So the highlights of the day - 4 hijackings, 3000 deaths, two major building collapses, and oh yea, a bunch of papers burned. Weasel wording the affiliations of the hijackers and removing the casualties seems rather odd to me, too. -- Mmx1 15:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to either agree that people hold different viewpoints, as seems pretty obvious by the many talk pages over the years, and present all viewpoints in the article, or at least keep the article solely about the FACTS and not the opinions of one side. Facts are things like planes crashed into towers, towers collapsed, x number of people are dead, etc. Opinions are things like the hijackers were with Al-Qaeda, the buildings collapsed solely because of a few fires, the Pentagon had a passenger plane crash into it (also an opinion unless you hold the super secret video proving it), and so on. Until we've reached such a consensus, the disputed tag should remain. Elfguy 16:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Factual Accuracy Disputed I have added a (Disputed) tag to this article for the following reason. It has become abundantly clear that the only facts permitted to enter this article are those that support the official viewpoint. This is not objective or balanced. Any reference to controversy or credible claims that would reflect negatively on official accounts are quickly and decisively deleted and contributors disparaged as lunatic fringe conspiracy theorists. (See [41] for the most recent example.) For additional examples see above under: Facts and Nothing But, Reasoned Debate...,Wikipedia isn't everything, Conspiracy Theories, Phone Calls, Stock Market, NPOV, Disputed and of course Newbie Welcome Message
This has gone on long enough. Before removing my (Disputed) tag, please explain how my reasoning is flawed. How I missed the point, that this is actually a really fair and balanced article that doesn't ommit facts from credible sources, just because they might not support the official accounting of events. Tell me that all of my contributions haven't justified as single line being added to this article, because not one word was good enough to add value to the article. (For specific examples of the horrible words I wish to add, see Phones and Stock Market text in bold.
I want to believe in the good faith of my fellow contributors on this page, really I do. I don't want this to be my last contribution, but I don't know what else to do. Throw me a bone, somebody... -- Digiterata 01:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
"Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct. 28, 2004 states credible whitnesses claiming that black boxes were found [42]"
Credible source, relevant issue, quickly and decisively deleted and marginalized as conspiracy theory for only one reason: it doesn't support the governments claims. It's the most recent example I could find taken from here [43] Deleted with instructions to take it to save it for the Conspiracy Theories page.
But New York City Firefighter Nicholas DeMasi has written in a book self-published by Ground Zero workers that he took federal agents on an all-terrain vehicle in October 2001 and located three of the four. His account is backed by a well-known Ground Zero volunteer.
From Stock Market: "In the days leading up to the attacks, a number of suspicious trades were placed against United and American Airlines as well as Boeing. These trades resulted in a significant increase in short-selling and put option activity (bets that the price would fall) Media reports initially indicated that these trades indicated possible foreknowledge of the attacks. However, on further investigation no connection was found."
Tell me honestly, if the US Government had discovered that Al Quaeda was behind those trades, what are the chances it would be excluded? It was relevant then and it is relevant now. To censor this item just because it doesn't support the official story is blatant POV bias.
I'll stop here because my arguments fall on deaf ears, but each item I listed in my prior post is an example of such censorship. You people are bullies and your ends justify the means mindset is destroying Wikipedia. If I thought there was a chance of gaining consensus through reason and fact, I would continue to contribute, but you people are bullies and there is simply no way to reason with you. Please continue to tell yourselves that 22.1 million citations in Google for '9/11 critics' is a tiny minority of kooky conspiracy theorists. The fact that this article contains Zero criticism other than a few lines about conspiracy theorists stands as my evidence that this article is riddled with propaganda and censorship, but I'm just another tin-foil hat-wearing lunatic right? -- Digiterata 04:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I have never heard an argument for the notion that the 9-11 attacks targeted global capitalism. Never have I read anywhere of Bin Laden or Al Quaeda voicing an opinion contrary to capitalism. Indeed, Bin Laden himself, the son of a wealthy family, is a benefit of capitalism and has used much of his inheritance to fund Al Quaeda operations. Until someone can demonstrate that 9-11 was an attack on global capitalism, I am removing those words from the first paragraph of the article. Griot 19:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
"Injustice had affected the people of the industry and agriculture. It affected the people of the rural and urban areas. And almost everybody complained about something. The situation at the land of the two Holy places became like a huge volcano at the verge of eruption that would destroy the Kufr and the corruption and its sources. The explosion at Riyadh and al-Khobar is a warning of this volcanic eruption emerging as a result of the severe oppression, suffering, excessive iniquity, humiliation and poverty.People are fully concerned about their everyday living; everybody talks about the deterioration of the economy, inflation, ever-increasing debts, and jails full of prisoners. Government employees with limited income talk about debts of ten of thousands and hundred of thousands of Saudi riyals. They complain that the value of the riyal is greatly and continuously deteriorating among most of the main currencies. Great merchants and contractors speak about hundreds and thousands of millions of riyals owed to them by the government. More than three hundred forty billion riyals is owed by the government to the people in addition to the daily accumulated interest, let alone the foreign debt. People wonder, are we the largest oil exporting country? They even believe that this situation is a curse put on them by Allah for not objecting to the oppressive and illegitimate behaviour and measures of the ruling regime: Ignoring the divine Shari'ah law; depriving people of their legitimate rights; allowing the American to occupy the land of the two Holy Places; imprisonment, unjustly, of the sincere scholars. The honourable Ulema and scholars as well as merchants, economists and eminent people of the country were all alerted by this disastrous situation. Quick efforts were made by each group to contain and to correct the situation. All agreed that the country is heading toward a great catastrophe, the depth of which is not known except by Allah. One big merchant commented: "The king is leading the state into `sixty-six' fold disaster". We bemoan this and can only say: "No strength and no power acquired except through Allah". Numerous princes share with the people their feelings, privately expressing their concerns and objecting to the corruption, repression and the intimidation taking place in the country. But the competition between influential princes for personal gain and interest has destroyed the country." .. "It is incredible that our country is the world's largest buyer of arms from the U.S.A. and the area's biggest commercial partner with the Americans, who are assisting their Zionist brothers in occupying Palestine and in evicting and killing the Muslims there, by providing arms, men, and financial support. To deny these occupiers the enormous revenues of trading with our country is a very important aid to our Jihad against them. To express our anger and hate to them is a very important moral gesture. By doing so we would have taken part in (the process of) cleansing our sanctuaries from the Crusaders and the Zionists and forcing them, by the Permission of Allah, to leave disappointed and defeated."
Osama bin Laden's Declaration of War --
max rspct
leave a message
20:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
"The strike against the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, was a violent blow against the United States and a symbolic attack on capitalism and commerce. " - Russell Sage Foundation -- max rspct leave a message 20:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
On the morning, nineteen hijackers, affiliated with al-Qaeda, [2] [3] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Two planes were crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, a symbol of global capitalism and commerce. [4] Within two hours, both towers collapsed.
Yes go on water it down so much! It was not just symbolic.. Why don't we put 'according to tom harrison' believes that... ? Against capitalism, US imperialism. These are major aspects of the attack. Tucking it away is not encyclopedic. I have provided sources. The WTC is an set of international institutions (the cia office) and corporations. I might have expected as much. I wonder how many are the regular editors are NSA/CIA. Be ashamed. User:Kmf164, I have not revert thrice, and u refuse to answer me. Oh and who is 'we'. Trying to scare me off? -- max rspct leave a message 21:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Did anyone actually click on global capitalism as see where it led?
Financial capital, which is what most of the 'employees'/businesspeople were involved in.
max rspct
leave a message
21:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The companies that operated from it were global capitalist companies/institutions.. even if HQs in U.S. New York is a world financial centre.. Hmmm wounder why it was called WTC HUH?The aim was obviously a blow against US-led capitalism. Why should we editorialise on behalf of USTV/media/government/us citizens only/bereaved relatives?? I am beginning to agree with the sentiment that "wikipedia is postmodernism on crack" -- max rspct leave a message 21:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The citations are above. What do you think a declaration of war iz????? More than enough evidence. Don't insult my personal beliefs in order to dissuade me. -- max rspct leave a message 21:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Socialism.. who mentioned anything about that? Maybe you're inherently anti-socialist and thats why u keep reverting. Anti-capitalism does not mean 'socialism'. I have spend over 10years studying in academic institutions.. But that don't matter at all when the article is being controlled by NSA and north americans in general. max rspct leave a message 22:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The "war" is a relious war, not a economic war...The WTC and pentagon were just targets of opportunity for maximum exposure and maximum death and destruction...key elements of terroristic enterprise. Osama has made it clear numerous times that he would like to see a united Islam under one flag, one leader (him in all liklihood) and fundamentalist Islam in theology. The attack on WTC, etc, were not designed to do anything other than to show that he can strike anywhere at anytime...in this endeavour, he succeeded. Osama is smart enough to know that the best way to cripple the U.S. economy is Oil...so had his desires been to truly hurt the U.S. economically, all he has to do is go after the oilfields and supply lines...which would be an easier thing to do anyway.-- MONGO 01:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whatever symbolic value the World Trade Center had within the United States, for global capitalism it was just another office building. The name itself, World Trade Center, makes it a symbol of money and American arrogance. Rightly or wrongly, many people outside the US, including bin Laden's target audience, see those as the sources of American foreign policy. Peter Grey 13:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
jUST another building? That is blatantly untrue. -- max rspct leave a message 14:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
What is "Global capitalism" anyway? Peter Grey 18:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Warning:The following message should be considered Trolling Please skip this message if you would rather not hear the truth (IMHO) The contents of this message may raise your blood pressure.
I want to welcome all newcomers to the September 11 attacks article with a few words of warning.
For those of you who wish to make edits to this page, if you feel that this article is missing relevant facts, please consider the following. Before contributing, ask yourself whether or not your contribution supports the official account of events of 9/11. If it does not, your edits are not welcome here. Only facts that support the official account of events are acceptable. Any facts which do not are considered Conspiracy Theories and should be added to the appropriate article [46].
This guiding principle applies for any and all edits which might be construed as critical of the official accounts. Wikipedia NPOV policy WP:NPOVdoes not apply to this article.
If you are concerned that this article does not appear to be fair and balanced as it does not include any reference to criticism of an obviously contentious topic, please again, take it to Conspiracy Theories. Your contributions are not welcome here.
If you somehow believe that this message doesn't apply to your criticism and that adding your voice to the debate will make a difference. Please don't waste your time trying to resolve your issues on Talk [47]. Take it to the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories site [48]. Your contributions are not welcome here.
Those who provide credible references to relevant facts that dispute the mainstream viewpoint will be shot on sight.
Again, only facts that support the mainstream view of accounts are welcome on this page. All other contributions, regardless of their relevance, credibility of sources, or factual nature are unwelcome. If you hold such views, or simply think that a fair and balanced article, particularly on an issue as controversial as this, should have some mention of the controversy, please take it to the Conspiracy Theories page - you tinfoil hat-wearing nutter! Your contributions are not welcome here.
(The previous slightly tongue-in-cheek, extremely sarcastic, comment was posted by a very frustrated former contributor who has probably said too much already) -- Digiterata 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a place to discuss changes to the article, not to critique US foreign policy, pontificate about the struggle of class against class, or vent about the shortcomings of other users. While occasional off-topic rants are usually tolerated, at a certain point they begin to disrupt our actual work here, which is after all writing an encyclopedia. I think we have passed pased that point. This needs to stop, or we may have to start removing off-topic commentary, and maybe ultimately blocking disruptive users. Tom Harrison Talk 18:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the blocking policy, disruption may include (but is not limited to) changing other users' signed comments, making deliberately misleading edits, harassment, excessive personal attacks, and inserting material that may be defamatory. Tom Harrison Talk 19:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Please do not reduce the font size. The guideline is that article content not include specific font changes, and the Wiki's html generator ( Cascading Style Sheets) owns formatting. It hinders readability by people with some vision impairment to reduce the font size. See WP Manual of Style:Formatting Issues for the details. patsw 01:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Amazing. The September 11 Wiki isn't even linked or listed here? Is this how disconnected the whole Wikipedia and it's sub-sites are? Seeing as I can't seem to find an article on or about the September 11 Wiki; I decided to ask a question I have about it here: what are the reviews saying about the documentary film 9/11 Eyewitness? It's probably b.s., but I was interested in finding out the reactions. Also, why is there a wiki for 9/11 (including the online Memoriam); but nothing like that for other things like, I don't know, Hurricane Katrina victims; or other "disasters" from anywhere outside of the U.S.? Wikipedia isn't an American encyclopia, is it? Another question I have (this is sort of off-topic) is whether or not the articles on Wikipedia in other foreign languages are: 1.) translated via a translator(s), 2.) translated via a program/bot/script, or 3.) completely rewritten in the new language? If it's 3, I feel it's really a waste of time and energy just to rewrite an article from the bottom up all over again per each language. THis same question applies to the Wikipedia project (yet another project/sub-site I stumbled upon) Simple English Wikipedia; shouldn't they attempt to simplify existing articles, instead of completely rewriting them in simple English? (sorry, but speaking of sub-sites and Wikipedia projects; has there been an effort to sort of gather and organize everything that has sprouted from Wikipedia [not article-wise]? I mean, it seems like everyday, I stumble upon a new project/subsite/group/etc., and it was because of luck that I found it [or else, it would never have happened]. For example, I found the 911 wikipedia, the simple english wikipedia, a group within Wikipedia that seeks to address problems; a similar group that is less "official", a " Counter-Vandalism Unit", and so on. There really needs to be an effort to group everything together, into an umbrella-article -- there are so many great "wikiprojects" out there which may never see the light of day, or can not be "advertised" or shown to the public.)
The article had nothing about the failure to find the black boxes of both planes at the World Tade Center. I added a sentence about the failure to find them (and witnesses who reported finding them), but StuffOfInterest deleted it with the terse comment that it belongs on the Conspiracy Theory page. I disagree. I think some discussion of the black boxes is quite relevant, and the article has it for the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. More generally, editors who delete contributions fully cited to accepted sources should have to explain what they think they're doing. -- JustFacts 15:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you guys know, the United States article is on featured article candidates list, so you can cast your vote there- or not.-- Ryz05 19:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello - I don't have the power to make this edit, so I'm offering the suggestion to someone who does. Under "The "War on Terrorism" subsection of "Government Response," I think it would be useful to add a short additional sentance after the last paragraph: "As of March 2006, thirty-five New York City residents have died fight in the war in Iraq. Thousands more have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan and returned. Another 8,000 New Yorkers remain on active military duty." (Source: Gotham Gazette) 206.15.138.244 00:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be an overwhelming number of pictures regarding New York, but only one each of the pennslyvania and pentagon tragedies, which were as much a part of 9/11 as New York. There needs to be a balance between them. Thoughts?-- Gephart 00:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I've trimmed the intro, removing the short paragraph on the "aftermath" - War on Terrorism, ... I really don't think it's needed in the intro, but if someone feels otherwise then go ahead and readd it. - Aude ( talk | contribs) 03:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know that the WTC was lined with copper! Thanks for clearing that up, MONGO! Notwithstanding that the totality of copper-cabling on several floors couldn't account for the volume of molten metal seen cascading from a corner on one floor of the South Tower in the minute prior to collapse, the following relevant quotes about maximum fire temperatures in buildings, from one of the official papers, refutes your folk-theory - because copper melts at 1084C:
"The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1,000°C—hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1,500°C. But it is VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH THIS maximum temperature with a diffuse flame. This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500°C to 650°C range." ( Egan and Musso, 2001). Confabulous 07:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Are you familiar with any other tall building fires that caused a spectacular stream of glowing molten metal, indentical in appearance to the result of a thermite reaction, to cascade from the burning building, MONGO? What kind of metal glows bright-yellow in broad daylight when melted at building fire temperatures? Why do defenders of the official dogma have to pretend that the spectacular stream of glowing molten metal cascading from the tower prior to its collapse didn't happen, or was too mundane to require any kind of rational explanation? Why are defenders of the official dogma so hostile to the facts that contradict it? Recall that Galileo was actually permitted to present his evidence challenging the official dogma, so long as he adopted a NPOV when comparing the "Two Chief World Systems." He was subsequently imprisoned and forced to recant on the basis that his dialogue was biased in favor of the Copernican POV. But the real reason for the persecution of Galileo was that his Copernican explanation - his abstract scientific model - did a much better job of explaining observations in the real world than did the official one. I suspect, MONGO, that you wouldn't have permitted Galileo to publish his book in the first place. Confabulous 09:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC) (typo corrected, clarity and precision modified) Confabulous 10:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Every tall building fire, MONGO, has resulted in "something burning coming off them." We call them "flames" in technical parlance. If what you flippantly and incorrectly described as "something burning" refers to the stream of brightly glowing molten metal cascading from the South tower (the molten metal that isn't actually "burning" (see oxidation)), then there is certainly no precedent. When fire raged for 3.5 hours in the 62 story First Interstate Bank Building in LA, gutting four and a half floors, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. When fire raged for 18 hours at 1 Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia, gutting eight floors, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. When fire raged for 17 hours in a 56 story steel-framed tower in Caracas, Venezuala, gutting twenty-six floors and causing two of them to collapse, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. When fire raged through the Windsor Building in Madrid causing non-symmetrical and gradual collapse of several floors over a timespan of around 3 hours, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. And when fire spread through six floors of the World Trade Center, North Tower, in 1975 (3 hours), no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. If you can find any example of this or a similar molten phenomena occuring in conjunction with any building fire on earth, please supply it. As for my understanding of proof, I suspect it's a tad more sophisticated than yours, and I find the question insulting coming from the kind of person who could cheerfuly assign the word " speculation" to a list of documented and referenced facts. You already tried to encourage another contributor to take only what they can "prove" to the washingtonpost instead of wasting time with that nasty stuff called evidence here at "the people's encyclopedia." When I mentioned that the washington post was certainly responsible for censoring Pentagon witness reportage (C-130), you demanded proof. But when given the proof you simply ignored it - it didn't happen! When I pointed out that seizure and suppression of Pentagon attack footage is, by definition, a coverup, you ignored that proof too - it didn't happen either! - not part of the official Arab-framing dogma! - move along! Five Israeli men -- Judeofascists perhaps, MONGO? -- were certainly arrested and detained as "suspected conspirators" on the afternoon of the attacks with, quote, "maps linking them to the bombing plot" [Bergen Record, Forward, Haaretz] and again, there is nothing to see here in the main article concerning these remarkable events that transpired on that remarkably evil day - so keep on moving. Video footage, and photos too, show a cascade of bright yellow molten metal preceding collapse -- but we can't document even that here, because the exact composition of the metal in the cascade can't be determined with 100% certainty, and because it might be one of those torrents of molten filing-cabinets that you often see pouring from office fires with such contempt for sufficient temperature! (in the way cars melt in a forest fire!) Confabulous 14:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC) (typofixmaticized) Confabulous 14:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Exactly...it amazes me that these controlled demolition advocates seem to miss the basic point that none of the other buildings they cite as being comparable were hit by wide body jets flying at over 500mph and vitually full of aviation fuel. There are also key elements of Confabulous' comments that also miss the point. a)...hundreds of video cameras and media captured all or some of the collapse sequence from various aspects. Naturally, many things were observed at the WTC that were not observed at these other fires...which were also not fueled by aviation fuel. b)...no one knows what that is that is "pouring" out of the building and the controlled demolition advocates continue to state that it is iron due to it's color...maybe it is...but this doesn't mean that a thermite reaction is taking place as they wish some to think. c)...my knowledge of fire is pretty high. I have been to an engine academy, and was a stike team leader on wildland forest fires. On a fire I was involved in back in 1994, a car thief took the vehicle he stole into Croatan National Forest on the North Carolina coast and set fire to it to cover his tracks...this started a 25,000 acre fire and I did witness that this same stolen vehicle had portions of it's body reduced to slag...it had melted and pooled. Those five Israeli men were released...and the point there is what? I see...yes, the zionists did this so the U.S. would wage war in the middle east and the U.S. let them do it. Well, okay, that's simply retarded. Document facts eh...where...I see not one that is proof of controlled demolition. Confabulous has no idea what proof is and it would be amusing to say the least to see him submit his "proof" to any reputable news media, trade journal on civil engineering or elsewhere...I imagine their pain threshold for nonsense is significantly lower than ours is.-- MONGO 02:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Good day to all,
I have recently become aware of the 9/11 Truth Movement. While I find the movement's allegations to be disturbing and hopefully untrue, as a trained social scientist I must consider the claims from an objective point of view. I have recently attempted to add Wikipedia links to 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth from the main 9/11 Wikipedia page. Within minutes of doing so, they have been removed. While I understand the controversial nature of this information, Wikipedia is a general information service. To delete or censor information because it is contestable is a disservice to the Wikipedia community. To seek objective truth is the primary role of Wikipedia. I ask that the individual or individuals who are deleting references to the 9/11 Truth Movement refrain from their censorship. To hide information that is controversial interferes with those of us seeking to better understand the cause and effects of the tragedy of September 11th. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joetkeck ( talk • contribs) .
Joetkeck 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC) In response,have you reviewed these sources? I believe it to be credible and truthful to state that "an increasing number of individuals are asking for further investigation" as part of the 9/11 Truth Movement.
Joetkeck 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Good day. I have only yesterday become involved in contributing to Wikipedia and have not reviewed the extensive discussion archives on this page. Nevertheless,I consider verifiability to be synonomous with truth and, thus, to refer people to the real Wikipedia pages 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth is a positive and objective contribution for people to extend their knowledge.
Joetkeck 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC) Good day, while I may be misunderstanding your comment, I would hope that we work to create an objective entry that does not create bias. To mention the Truth Movement is both objective and verifiable, the exact methodology for a good encyclopedia.
Joetkeck
68.254.110.51
18:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC) I claimed that I have not yet read this wikipedia discussion regarding the controversy surrounding the
9/11 Truth Movement. I too hope that it is proven to be biased non-sense, but until the adamant within the movement are given ample opportunity to present their evidence then, as a trained social scientist, I can not dismiss their claims simply because I do not want them to be true. I encourage those who object to allowing reference to
Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, for example, refrain from their censorship. Allow others to judge for themselves whether these claims are worthy of consideration.
Joetkeck
68.254.110.51
18:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Good day to all of you who are following this discussion. This is what I have just read regarding those who monitor and remove objective information from this entry:
I want to welcome all newcomers to the September 11 attacks article with a few words of warning.
For those of you who wish to make edits to this page, if you feel that this article is missing relevant facts, please consider the following. Before contributing, ask yourself whether or not your contribution supports the official account of events of 9/11. If it does not, your edits are not welcome here. Only facts that support the official account of events are acceptable. Any facts which do not are considered Conspiracy Theories and should be added to the appropriate article [49].
Joetkeck
68.254.110.51
18:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Please note, while I am not yet one among them, many individuals do not subscribe to the notion of discussing potential evidence of wrongdoing as conspiratorial. To refer people to the
9/11 Truth Movement should not be restricted on the main 9/11 page. i hope those of you who are censoring soon come to agree. Thank you.
Joetkeck How quickly my contribution is removed! You, or each of you, must moniter this page w/o sleep. My contribution is fair and accurate:
To question the validity of these outstanding claims, an increasing number of individuals are asking for further investigation. See 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth.
Please allow fairness at Wikipedia. To not do so implies bias and, thus, censorship
Joetkeck 2:33 pm Central Let's see if my contribution as already been stripped --
Joetkeck 2:36 pm No, not yet.
I note on the IRA section you ask not to use the word 'terrorist' or 'terrorists'. Yet on this article it is used. This is against your own rules! Or is it when IRA killed British people that was allowed, whereas when Islamists killed Americans this is not allowed, therefore they are 'Islamist terrorists'. Please explain Bettybutt ( talk) 05:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I have copied the following from discussion page 'Wikipedia has a policy of not calling people or groups "terrorist". This is not an indication of condoning "terrorist" activities, but of neutrality, and avoidance of passing judgment, affirming or denying. Please debate the merit of this policy at WT:Words to avoid, not here.'
It is POLICY to NOT use the term Terrorist, nowhere does it say it's fine if the UN uses the word. The British, Irish and American Governments used the word about IRA, so that ought to be just as acceptable. Bettybutt ( talk) 04:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The Chambers dictionary defines 'terrorism' as thus:- terrorism noun the systematic and organized use of violence and intimidation to force a government or community, etc to act in a certain way or accept certain demands. terrorist noun, adj. ETYMOLOGY: 18c.
It can be successfully argued that the primary objective of the September 11 attacks was not terrorism as it is defined above. Given that the two principle targets were one major military target (Pentagon) and one major economic/financial target (World Trade Center) the attacks can be considered nothing short of a conventional (albeit 'home-made'/improvised) military attack against a country's infrastructure with a view to decimating said infrastructure. This is completely different from terrorism where the primary objective is to terrorise. An example of proper terrorism would be low-flying Israeli F-16s routinely breaking the sound barrier over the civilian population of Gaza. This isn't POV either; it's just that there cannot be any objective to breaking the sound barrier over a civilian population other than to create fear / terror. While it is true that the people of New York and those directly affected by the attacks of September 11 may well have been terrified it is not neccessarily true that the primary objective of the attacks was to create terror, but instead to destroy a central part of America's infrastructure. The opening days of the 2003 Iraq war, saw the so-called 'Shock and Awe' - a military attack against the Baathist infrastructure. There is no doubt that the civilian population of Baghdad would naturally have been terrified during such attack - but that does not mean that Shock and Awe was an act of terrorism carried out by terrorists. The September 11 attacks are no different. 81.141.105.11 ( talk) 16:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I submit part of a transcript from an interview between Osama Bin Laden and Al-Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alounim, dated October 2001. The full-length interview is quite lengthy and I have posted a link to it below. This particular segment supports the notion that al-Qaeda was intending to destroy the central-nerve system of America, as opposed to terrorise:-
BIN LADEN: However, this prohibition of the killing of children and innocents is not absolute. It is not absolute. There are other texts that restrict it. I agree that the Prophet Mohammed forbade the killing of babies and women. That is true, but this is not absolute. There is a saying, "If the infidels killed women and children on purpose, we shouldn't shy way from treating them in the same way to stop them from doing it again." The men that God helped [attack, on September 11] did not intend to kill babies; they intended to destroy the strongest military power in the world, to attack the Pentagon that houses more than 64,000 employees, a military center that houses the strength and the military intelligence.
Q: How about the twin towers?
BIN LADEN: The towers are an economic power and not a children's school. Those that were there are men that supported the biggest economic power in the world. They have to review their books. We will do as they do. If they kill our women and our innocent people, we will kill their women and their innocent people until they stop.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/05/binladen.transcript/index.html 81.141.105.11 ( talk) 03:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Even so, I think there is a successful case for disagreement and debate on this issue. The past nine years has seen the use of language manipulated for propaganda purposes by forces whose objectives have subsequently been rendered questionable by popular culture. In such times, the dictionary should be the bible in determining truth, and not the polymorphic rudiments of a particular era's Government, or Government's propaganda campaign. Until such time as the question mark surrounding the intent of the attackers is cleared up, I suggest 'Islamic terrorists' should be replaced with 'Islamic militants' - a far more semantically stable definition, of which I'm sure everyone can agree on. 81.141.110.96 ( talk) 08:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Al-qaeda was responsible for the September 11 attacks. In the wikipedia entry for Al-qaeda, the opening paragraph describes Al-qaeda as a 'Sunni Islamist Extremist movement' as it's principal definition. 81.141.110.96 ( talk) 18:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
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There is no section dealing with the flight of a gray C130 Naval electronics warfare aircraft by Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien of the Minessota Air National Guard that was seen by at least 13 witnesses shadowing fligh 77 prior to impact. The same C-130 was also present when flight 93 crashed. Just because the goose-stepping media refuses to present the compiled facts, it doesn't mean that Wiki should follow suit. 58.106.64.57 06:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The LA Times headline on September 11, 2001 was "Attacks Held To Be A Conspiracy." An article in the New Jersey Bergen Record describing five Israeli men in an explosives-tainted moving van with "maps linking them to the bombing plot" was titled "Five Men Detained As Suspected Conspirators." This Wikipedia page on the September 11 attacks describes a rather implausible conspiracy theory about causation. The word "conspiracy" is not a pejorative. That said, considering the seizure and suppression of all Pentagon impact footage, the significance of the C-130 is best described in the words of two witnesses published in Arlington's Daily Press: "The second plane looked similar to a C-130 transport plane ... it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar--while at the same time--guiding the jet toward the Pentagon." (Keith Wheelhouse, Daily Press, September 14, 2001); "Thank God somebody else saw that ... It's so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they're hiding it for some reason." (Kelly Knowles, Daily Press, September 15, 2001). C-130 witness compendium 58.106.64.57 18:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be a section on the "racial discriminations against muslims following the attacks," which is pretty significant and widely publicized.-- Ryz05 06:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
How about something like this: "Following the attacks, 80,000 Arab and Muslim immigrants were fingerprinted and registered, 8,000 Arab and Muslim men were interviewed, and 5,000 foreign nationals were detained [1]."
Can add it? 86.131.205.124 11:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Andy
I found this fairly well done 9/11 tribute on google video. Maybe we could use this discussion to propose additions to the media section. Bubba61389 03:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3380474950135485800
Incidentally, I'd like to humbly suggest the addition of Loose Change to the videos area, as is the intent of this subheading. Cathal
Loose Change is not a reliable source, it is an hour and a half of bad science and begging the question from personal ignorance.
Jefffire
17:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to argue this. The same can be said of both sides of the argument, and calling one side stupid and the other correct is both childish and simple-minded. The video cites references, and makes fewer assumptions than others I could mention. The thrust in Loose Change is the questions, not the answers. And I prefer open questions to questionable answers. Cathal 17:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually my point was that there was as much information to be gleaned from it as from the official information. How much weight you put in both is a matter of preference, but neither can be relied upon for the answer. Difference is, one side is trying to offer one, and the other is looking for proof. The point of videos such as Loose Change is not that they offer an explanation, but that they highlight the suspicion around the official one. For the record, your previous assertion that it was bad science is quite wrong. The two major points in Loose Change and in the arguments it is based upon are thus:
Regardless of your "allegiances", should you attempt to define them, reasoned debate cannot dispatch these facts. It's not bad science, because it is BASIC science. Cathal
In any case, I was not presenting a POV initially. I would like for Loose Change, as a video that, disregarding personal preferences, is influential and important in the debate, be included in the "Videos" section. I was going to do so myself, but apparently I have to get it vetted here. It is informative but not definitive, and presents a point of view: Exactly as all of the current ones in the list do. Cathal 18:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Capital loves a bit of Genocide -- max rspct leave a message 02:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
If the theories outlined in Loose Change are, in fact, "requested from experts," then this is news to me, after watching it twice. No one in the video ever claimed to have any kind of engineering credentials. To my knowledge, the only person with any academic credentials who is on board with the conspiracy theorists is Stephen Jones, whose other research activities include searching for evidence of Jesus' supposed visit to North America. [3]
68.254.115.174 13:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)While I have not yet viewed [4], I have read Professor Jones' peer-reviewed article "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?" available at [5]. And, while you can attempt to disregard Professor Jones' as a 'conspiratorialist' by referencing his research above, please remember that the Mormon religion believes in the possibility that Jesus appeared in America. To investigate this possibility does not alter Professor Jones' credentials as a qualified expert to investigate the physics of the collapses on 9/11. 68.254.115.174 13:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, you do have to be an expert to understand the tangled web of physics that is involved in the collapse of a high-rise building. For example, let's take one of the issues raised in Loose Change you mentioned above (the bolded numbering is mine):
(1)The buildings simply could not have collapsed from a plane impact or burning fuel: The melting point of normal steel is far exceeding the burn temperature of aircraft fuel, and this steel was not normal. (2)And even if they did melt, resulting in collapse; the building could not then have fallen at freefall velocities, as its own resistance would have slowed it considerably.
(1) was addressed a while ago in an article published in Scientific American.
For example, according to www.911research.wtc7.net, steel melts at a temperature of 2,777 degrees Fahrenheit, but jet fuel burns at only 1,517 degrees F. No melted steel, no collapsed towers. "The planes did not bring those towers down; bombs did," says www.abovetopsecret.com. Wrong. In an article in the Journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society and in subsequent interviews, Thomas Eagar, an engineering professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, explains why: steel loses 50 percent of its strength at 1,200 degrees F; 90,000 liters of jet fuel ignited other combustible materials such as rugs, curtains, furniture and paper, which continued burning after the jet fuel was exhausted, raising temperatures above 1,400 degrees F and spreading the inferno throughout each building. Temperature differentials of hundreds of degrees across single steel horizontal trusses caused them to sag--straining and then breaking the angle clips that held the beams to the vertical columns. Once one truss failed, others followed. When one floor collapsed onto the next floor below, that floor subsequently gave way, creating a pancaking effect that triggered each 500,000-ton structure to crumble.
As for (2), it is explained in detail in the Journal of Engineering by a couple of faculty from Northwestern University's engineering department. [6] I can't paste the relevant section here because the mathemtics are getting mangled in the process, but you can find it for yourself at the bottom right of page 7. It is titled Didn’t Plastic Deformations "Cushion" the Vertical Impact? -- rehpotsirhc █♣█ ▪ Talk 20:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone pasted this link Loose Change 911 - What really happened on 911. which was removed for not being mentionned on the Talk page - it is a must ad since it is by far the most well done and patriotic video ever to be released about 911. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.82.42 ( talk • contribs)
Loose Change should be dismissed because it is deliberately flawed, and because it is inescapably promoted by counter intelligence professionals for that very reason - including good PR courtesy of FOX News. Let me repeat that: good PR courtesy of FOX. But
this raw and continuous footage -(app.10Mb)- shows
a glowing stream of molten metal gushing, in a most spectacular fashion, from a corner of the South tower, approximately 1 minute prior to its collapse.
Can anyone think of a reason for not including a link to this footage in the main article?
Confabulous
11:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Digiterata (Normal Nick):This is supposed to be a stub to summarize the arguments in the conspiracy article, not to present evidence they cite. This has been established as consensus repeatedly. Stop adding material to the article to support your POV. -- Mmx1
I dunno, how about this? [7] [8]. Sure seemed like you were pointing your sig to his talk page.
My god, we've been over this countless times. Your conspiracy views are not significant. They are a minority and refuted viewpoint based on pseudoscience and we are under no obligation to include them. Not all views are equal -- Mmx1 19:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
As a fresh voice in the crowd I'm hoping my viewpoint can be helpful in some way to the discussion rather than simply fuelling the fire. Wikipedia is an Encylcopaedia, and as such, attempts to present facts. Facts are confirmed and conclusively proven explanations to model real life events or systems. Something cannot be considered a hard fact if there are errors, holes or reasonable arguments against the explanation backing it up.
Here I am going to present facts, as an example of what this article actually has to build upon: This is not an argument for either side, this is a sample list. If it is incomplete, then I'm sorry, but that's not the point. Please read with a mind to reviewing the number of concrete and provable facts in the article, remembering that neither of the accused's testimony can count as "Proof" when they are themselves under suspicion
I am here going to present as many Facts as I can about the events, including those from both sides of the argument. Regardless of my views on the topic, please be conscious that I am trying to present as fully as I can the whole picture as it is known. Where they appear, I have not presented burning/melting/vapourising temperatures here, as they are readily available to those seeking them, and I feel they may serve to make this list appear biased, regardless of their factual content.
With respect to the Two Towers of the World Trade Centre, NY:
With regard to the Pentagon and damage done thereunto:
I will not attempt to present facts for the events surrounding the alleged fourth plane, as there are no definitive facts surrounding that dispute.
On the Behaviour of both Alleged conspirators, the US Government and Osama Bin Laden:
Note here that I have excluded video evidence about Osama bin Laden for the same reason as with the "Fourth Plane": there is nothing conclusive that can be said about either viewpoint as the veracity of the videos cannot be confirmed, regardless of their source. For more information on the tapes themselves one need only look them up on google, or see Videos of bin Laden.
If this seems POV, I tried to avoid it. Perhaps that says something. I am not going to offer an explanation or an opinion. I am simply making a point that I would like both sides of this argument to consider, remembering that this is not the place to make assertions about which viewpoint is correct: This is Wikipedia. And here, we present what facts are known. Unfortunately for Wikipedia, the facts available on this event are ambiguous at best and little can be said for certain about the event overall. Wikipedia must present the facts in total and represent both sides of the argument. It must then leave it to the reader to come to an informed, reasoned decision either way.
My suggestion regarding this article is simplistic and neutral: According to the NPOV policy, this article should represent both sides of the debate. Either make a new article which represents both sides of the argument, or make a parent page that represents neither view, but links to sister pages for the two explanations. In a perfect world these sister pages would cross link to one another to present an overall, point-for-point breakdown of everything significant that can be known about the event. Furthurmore, I agree with the view that using "Conspiracy Theory" to describe the alternate viewpoint(s) is a frame, and that it intentionally or unintentionally leads the viewer to view the alternate view more critically than is fair. Given that both viewpoints allege conspiracy, albiet by different groups, one could argue that both be placed under this heading (As one comically bitter essayist has done [10].
It should have a neutral nomenclature in a topic as serious as this one, such as:
Or something with a similar lack of colour.
As mentioned above, the crux of this message, aside from the suggestions given just previously, is to demonstrate how little is known. There's also a large problem looming over this debate re:the article: Much of the informations represented in the article is based upon information written/released/put forward by one of the possible attackers of the USA; the government itself.
Can Wikipedia accept and use information put forward by one of the parties in question? As a hypothetical exercise, imagine how you'd like to see all of the information in this article be instead based upon official statements from Osama Bin Laden? Would the testimony of one of the possible attackers be acceptable as evidence?
I realise there's no easy solution to this problem, as the common perception of the "event" is what the government has detailed about it, and as I've tried to demonstrate, neither viewpoint can be conclusively demonstrated with the information available to Wikipedia. Only by presenting both views critically and in tandem can a truly neutral article be written.
Silencing one side of the argument will achieve nothing but giving it more allure. Shouting down the other side of the argument will achieve nothing more than elevating the dispute.
I am going to add another heading. Anyone hoping to contribute should try to keep their opinions neutral and avoid flaming and trolling. Any statements made should not be conjecture: While commonly known facts are no issue, if you want to make a valid point, please cite reference. And please, please remember: This is a talk page about the article, not the event itself. Discuss what Wikipedia should show and what wikipedia shouldn't, after reading and considering the NPOV guidelines presented by the good people of Wikipedia itself.
This has been an exhaustive and overly verbose message from Cathal 17:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Disputed Tag: The (Disputed) tag was added in response to issue of specific facts being intentionally omitted from the article primarily because these facts do not correspond to the official story. That issue hasn't changed. Therefore I have added back the Tag. For specific examples see above comments by Cathal under Facts and Nothing But or see my [User:Digiterata|Talk]] page.
If you haven't done so, please read the latter part of the above article. Cathal 17:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC) Consider this my vote to include either:
And to eliminate usage of the word "Conspiracy", leaving two "Theories", for neutrality's sake. Cathal 17:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
When the attacks occured, I remember clearly that the first group of people claming responsibilty for this senseless attack was the Kashmir militants. It was on the Singapore television on Channel NewsAsia. It seems that the whole world ignored this confession soon after. Does anyone remember anything about this or am I just dreaming? Or is their confession proven to be a hoax? Should this be included in the article? This has been bugging me for nearly 5 years now and the attention has shifted fully on Osama bin Laden's involvement. Any comments would be deeply appreciated. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 20:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I am grateful that you apologized for the defamatory slur, Mongo, and for providing proof for your theory of collapse instead of just supporting evidence. Your reference describes a phone call placed before Atta boarded the plane, not during the flight as you had asserted. Thanks for correcting your mistake and providing a source.
I hope you have read Alen Cleveland's testimony, and I hope that you will consider including sections on
The addition of these documented facts would be a courtesy to all readers who expect more than the disputed and very controversial government POV that has been presented, in a rather faith-based kind of way, here at wikipedia . Thanks in anticipation.
58.106.64.57
10:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
p.s. I created an acccount and will sign in henceforth.
Confabulous
11:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems like we are starting to repeat the discussion that miraculously went away during the mediation cabal scrutiny. Let's review some highlights:
This might be a better choice for some content: Blogger: Create your Blog Now -- FREE. I'm just sayin'. Tom Harrison Talk 22:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is everything. -- Cocopuffberman 00:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do there seem to be a new pair of nutties every other week? -- Mmx1 14:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
This page is for discussing changes to the article. It is not a general-purpose web board where any of us can say what he thinks about terrorism, 9/11, conspiracy theories, or each other; especially not each other. Tom Harrison Talk 21:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
"The attacks were widely referred [to] as terrorism by most of the western media." Were they called anything else by anyone else? If some newspaper said they were the acts of noble self-sacrifice by gallant freedom fighters, let's note that, and quote them at length. But whatever else we add, they were terrorist attacks, and we just misinform our readers if we don't say so clearly and distinctly. Tom Harrison Talk 19:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The September 11th attacks have made United States homeland security
concerns much more prominent than they were in the previous decade.
I thought it might be valuable to have a mention of the controversy surrounding the new 9/11 films, which will be first shown at the Tribeca Film Festival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aandrei ( talk • contribs)
I have trimmed the external links section including:
There are a few other "photos" sites that are more personal in nature, that I think should go.
Because Wikipedia is not a link directory, we can't include all personal photo sites, and not sure if/why these two should be. Others agree/disagree with removing these two links? or disagree with any of the other changes above? - Aude ( talk | contribs) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Good day,
Please include on the main page:
To question the validity of these outstanding claims, an increasing number of individuals are asking for further investigation. See 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joetkeck ( talk • contribs) .
I'm not trying to push any one side, since personally I find both the US gov side and the other theories somewhat fishy. But I have to say that there are big holes in both sides, things that can't be explained, and things that are just not physically possible in what the Gov says or what various critics say. What I find disturbing however, is that for a clearly controversial and widely criticized topic, the article spends dozens of pages talking about the official account, and 1 paragraph on the alternate accounts, under the heading "conspiracy" and with a link to the other article. This article should either 1- keep to the facts everyone agree on (planes crashed in the buildings, the buildings collapsed, etc) and keep everything else out, or 2- present all view points with equal footing. I personally prefer the first option, since it's always best for an encyclopedia to stick to the widely accepted facts, and I suggest it be rewritten to be much smaller and much more focus on actual facts rather than the analysis of what, how and why. Elfguy 17:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
You make is sound like these theories were hidden from view. Instead an entire article is given to them. Rather than repeat that article here they are only discussed in brief. - Tεx τ urε 19:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone added the following paragraph, which I have moved here to the talk page, pending further discussion:
Michael Moore implicates the Bush administration in allowing relatives of Osama bin Laden to leave the United States without being thoroughly interviewed by the FBI. In his narration in the movie, Fahrenheit_9/11 Moore states that "At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the Bin Ladens out of the US after September 13th." While private flights were still generally banned at this time, the movie does not mention that the ban on commercial flights was lifted on September 13. Moore has based this on a book by Craig Unger called House of Bush, House of Saud. Passenger lists can be found here. For more info go to Michael Moore Fahrenheit_9/11 Fahrenheit 9/11 controversy Fahrenheit 9/11½ Sequel to Fahrenheit 9/11 September 11, 2001 attacks 9/11 conspiracy theories
Since there is truth [15] to this, it might be worth including a sentence (not a whole paragraph and without the quotes) in this main article. I'm undecided as to where it could fit. Possibly at the in the "International reaction" section, with the following sentence:
This might fit, if we also added some mention of the Saudi government reaction to the attacks. On it's own, it really doesn't fit and perhaps should just be in one of the subarticles. - Aude ( talk | contribs) 21:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know Wikipedia policy is to avoid using this word here:
"The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11 [1] or September 11th) were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks upon the United States of America"
I think we should drop this word. If you look at the name of the article ("September 11, 2001 attacks" not "September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks") and on the page (excluding this sentence) you will see that this sentence conisdered POV by Wikipeida policy. -- Haham hanuka 12:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Compare the intro of this article to: Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, Hezbollah, Revolutionary Organization 17 November, ETA, Irish Republican Army and etc. - those articles represent de facto "terror" policy on Wikipedia. -- Haham hanuka 11:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, new to the forum. I know that you are disputing the word terrorist and whether it should be included. The September 11th attacks were another in the long line of Islamic Fundamenalist attacks, such as the Achille Lauro, Munich 1972, the Dar es Salaam and Nairobi US Embassy bombings, and the USS Cole. These were terrorist acts, and September 11th is one more in the pile. Time to end the debate, we all these were terrorists, planning with a sophisticated network of communications to attack and cause havoc to this nation. They succeeded. The fact that we want to pull the wool over our own eyes, and forget 5 years after the event of what has happened is sickening. ~Tak178
I removed the POV flag because it represents a tiny minority viewpoint that favors a variety of conspiracy theories (even if the proponents do not consider themselves to do so) and because many discussions over many months has repeatedly reached a consensus that a small paragraph and links to the conspiracy pages are the appropriate solution.-- Cberlet 15:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals [25]
Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11? Yes 89% 9447 votes, No 11% 1201 votes [26]
Elfguy 16:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Canada's waging its own War on Terrorism, Operation Apollo in Afghanistan. Should my country be added under the "Primary participants" or "Other important figures"?
User:Raccoon Fox - Talk 21:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The debate over the neutrality of this article and specifically the ommission of facts that do not correspond to the official account of events has been ongoing for sometime. As a compromise, I would like to propose that a short section be added that includes reference to the specific hard facts that are the basis of the criticism. This section should be separate from Conspiracy Theories, and should focus on specific facts that have been previously excluded (see The Facts and Nothing But). The section should only include indisputable facts, not conjecture or analysis of the implications. I'm open to the specific wording of this section, maintaining a high standard for verifiability and accuracy, and discussions about the relevance of specific facts. However, completely excluding this evidence is a blatant NPOV violation.
Examples:
I put forward these examples, for the purpose of discussion. If I am mistaken in calling them facts, please feel free to comment. Digiterata 23:03, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree the issue needs to be presented -- briefly. Some are not quite "facts" yet though
Facts out of context, even correct ones, would probably violate WP:NPOV, especially engineering details that lay people would easily misinterpret. Some of the facts and the questionable conclusions made from them are covered in 9/11 conspiracy theories, but perhaps a better idea might be to have an article dedicated to these sorts of points and providing the explanations or counter-arguments. And who knows, there may well be some valid objective criticism out there. Peter Grey 00:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding telephone calls, here are a couple of references with which you may want to familiarize yourself: satellite phone and How to Use a Phone on an Airplane. (What, no article on airphone? ...rolls up sleeves...) Weregerbil 11:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
What would any "discrepancy" about the phone calls demonstrate? That the entire event was staged or faked? ... or, that sometimes reports are erroneous? Which is more reasonable? -- JimWae 21:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
On the point of short-selling and put option activity suggesting insider-trading on American Airlines, United, and Boeing prior to the attacks, does anyone have an issue with adding a line or two to the article? -- Digiterata 13:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
It is silly to state assumptions and theories as fact simply because the source of the assumptions and theories is credible. When the source is the government which was attacked it is even sillier to do so. I will try to address the most obvious infractions. Neutralizer 03:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Below is an edited version of the intro recently added by Marielleh I've posted it here on Talk because I thought it was quite good for its concise style and NPOV perspective. The article is getting quite verbose and I thought this was quite an improvement. It was recently reverted by another user and I wanted others to see it and comment before it was lost in the revision history. If anyone finds value in this version of the intro, please feel free to move it back to the article.
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11 [1] or September 11th) were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks upon the United States of America carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. The attacks killed approximately 3000 people and destroyed or damaged a number of buildings.
The attacks were carried out by 19 hijackers, who hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners, crashing three into buildings. Two planes were crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan, New York City, and within two hours both towers collapsed. A third hijacked plane crashed into the Pentagon, in Arlington County, Virginia. The fourth plane crashed into a rural field in Somerset County, Pennsylvania. The jet fuel in the planes ignited immediately and burned long enough to cause the contents of the buildings to combust. [39]
Soon after the attacks, the United States accused al-Queda, a fundamentalist islamist organization, for the event. The president George W. Bush launched " War on Terrorism" in response to the attacks, including invasion of Afghanistan and invasion of Iraq. Domestically, the United States goverment created Department of Homeland Security, PATRIOT Act and generally adopted terrorism as the central theme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digiterata ( talk • contribs)
It sucks. Ask for consensus before making edits to the intro. E.g. what's the point of this? "The jet fuel in the planes ignited immediately and burned long enough to cause the contents of the buildings to combust. " So the highlights of the day - 4 hijackings, 3000 deaths, two major building collapses, and oh yea, a bunch of papers burned. Weasel wording the affiliations of the hijackers and removing the casualties seems rather odd to me, too. -- Mmx1 15:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to either agree that people hold different viewpoints, as seems pretty obvious by the many talk pages over the years, and present all viewpoints in the article, or at least keep the article solely about the FACTS and not the opinions of one side. Facts are things like planes crashed into towers, towers collapsed, x number of people are dead, etc. Opinions are things like the hijackers were with Al-Qaeda, the buildings collapsed solely because of a few fires, the Pentagon had a passenger plane crash into it (also an opinion unless you hold the super secret video proving it), and so on. Until we've reached such a consensus, the disputed tag should remain. Elfguy 16:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Factual Accuracy Disputed I have added a (Disputed) tag to this article for the following reason. It has become abundantly clear that the only facts permitted to enter this article are those that support the official viewpoint. This is not objective or balanced. Any reference to controversy or credible claims that would reflect negatively on official accounts are quickly and decisively deleted and contributors disparaged as lunatic fringe conspiracy theorists. (See [41] for the most recent example.) For additional examples see above under: Facts and Nothing But, Reasoned Debate...,Wikipedia isn't everything, Conspiracy Theories, Phone Calls, Stock Market, NPOV, Disputed and of course Newbie Welcome Message
This has gone on long enough. Before removing my (Disputed) tag, please explain how my reasoning is flawed. How I missed the point, that this is actually a really fair and balanced article that doesn't ommit facts from credible sources, just because they might not support the official accounting of events. Tell me that all of my contributions haven't justified as single line being added to this article, because not one word was good enough to add value to the article. (For specific examples of the horrible words I wish to add, see Phones and Stock Market text in bold.
I want to believe in the good faith of my fellow contributors on this page, really I do. I don't want this to be my last contribution, but I don't know what else to do. Throw me a bone, somebody... -- Digiterata 01:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
"Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct. 28, 2004 states credible whitnesses claiming that black boxes were found [42]"
Credible source, relevant issue, quickly and decisively deleted and marginalized as conspiracy theory for only one reason: it doesn't support the governments claims. It's the most recent example I could find taken from here [43] Deleted with instructions to take it to save it for the Conspiracy Theories page.
But New York City Firefighter Nicholas DeMasi has written in a book self-published by Ground Zero workers that he took federal agents on an all-terrain vehicle in October 2001 and located three of the four. His account is backed by a well-known Ground Zero volunteer.
From Stock Market: "In the days leading up to the attacks, a number of suspicious trades were placed against United and American Airlines as well as Boeing. These trades resulted in a significant increase in short-selling and put option activity (bets that the price would fall) Media reports initially indicated that these trades indicated possible foreknowledge of the attacks. However, on further investigation no connection was found."
Tell me honestly, if the US Government had discovered that Al Quaeda was behind those trades, what are the chances it would be excluded? It was relevant then and it is relevant now. To censor this item just because it doesn't support the official story is blatant POV bias.
I'll stop here because my arguments fall on deaf ears, but each item I listed in my prior post is an example of such censorship. You people are bullies and your ends justify the means mindset is destroying Wikipedia. If I thought there was a chance of gaining consensus through reason and fact, I would continue to contribute, but you people are bullies and there is simply no way to reason with you. Please continue to tell yourselves that 22.1 million citations in Google for '9/11 critics' is a tiny minority of kooky conspiracy theorists. The fact that this article contains Zero criticism other than a few lines about conspiracy theorists stands as my evidence that this article is riddled with propaganda and censorship, but I'm just another tin-foil hat-wearing lunatic right? -- Digiterata 04:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I have never heard an argument for the notion that the 9-11 attacks targeted global capitalism. Never have I read anywhere of Bin Laden or Al Quaeda voicing an opinion contrary to capitalism. Indeed, Bin Laden himself, the son of a wealthy family, is a benefit of capitalism and has used much of his inheritance to fund Al Quaeda operations. Until someone can demonstrate that 9-11 was an attack on global capitalism, I am removing those words from the first paragraph of the article. Griot 19:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
"Injustice had affected the people of the industry and agriculture. It affected the people of the rural and urban areas. And almost everybody complained about something. The situation at the land of the two Holy places became like a huge volcano at the verge of eruption that would destroy the Kufr and the corruption and its sources. The explosion at Riyadh and al-Khobar is a warning of this volcanic eruption emerging as a result of the severe oppression, suffering, excessive iniquity, humiliation and poverty.People are fully concerned about their everyday living; everybody talks about the deterioration of the economy, inflation, ever-increasing debts, and jails full of prisoners. Government employees with limited income talk about debts of ten of thousands and hundred of thousands of Saudi riyals. They complain that the value of the riyal is greatly and continuously deteriorating among most of the main currencies. Great merchants and contractors speak about hundreds and thousands of millions of riyals owed to them by the government. More than three hundred forty billion riyals is owed by the government to the people in addition to the daily accumulated interest, let alone the foreign debt. People wonder, are we the largest oil exporting country? They even believe that this situation is a curse put on them by Allah for not objecting to the oppressive and illegitimate behaviour and measures of the ruling regime: Ignoring the divine Shari'ah law; depriving people of their legitimate rights; allowing the American to occupy the land of the two Holy Places; imprisonment, unjustly, of the sincere scholars. The honourable Ulema and scholars as well as merchants, economists and eminent people of the country were all alerted by this disastrous situation. Quick efforts were made by each group to contain and to correct the situation. All agreed that the country is heading toward a great catastrophe, the depth of which is not known except by Allah. One big merchant commented: "The king is leading the state into `sixty-six' fold disaster". We bemoan this and can only say: "No strength and no power acquired except through Allah". Numerous princes share with the people their feelings, privately expressing their concerns and objecting to the corruption, repression and the intimidation taking place in the country. But the competition between influential princes for personal gain and interest has destroyed the country." .. "It is incredible that our country is the world's largest buyer of arms from the U.S.A. and the area's biggest commercial partner with the Americans, who are assisting their Zionist brothers in occupying Palestine and in evicting and killing the Muslims there, by providing arms, men, and financial support. To deny these occupiers the enormous revenues of trading with our country is a very important aid to our Jihad against them. To express our anger and hate to them is a very important moral gesture. By doing so we would have taken part in (the process of) cleansing our sanctuaries from the Crusaders and the Zionists and forcing them, by the Permission of Allah, to leave disappointed and defeated."
Osama bin Laden's Declaration of War --
max rspct
leave a message
20:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
"The strike against the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, was a violent blow against the United States and a symbolic attack on capitalism and commerce. " - Russell Sage Foundation -- max rspct leave a message 20:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
On the morning, nineteen hijackers, affiliated with al-Qaeda, [2] [3] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Two planes were crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, a symbol of global capitalism and commerce. [4] Within two hours, both towers collapsed.
Yes go on water it down so much! It was not just symbolic.. Why don't we put 'according to tom harrison' believes that... ? Against capitalism, US imperialism. These are major aspects of the attack. Tucking it away is not encyclopedic. I have provided sources. The WTC is an set of international institutions (the cia office) and corporations. I might have expected as much. I wonder how many are the regular editors are NSA/CIA. Be ashamed. User:Kmf164, I have not revert thrice, and u refuse to answer me. Oh and who is 'we'. Trying to scare me off? -- max rspct leave a message 21:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Did anyone actually click on global capitalism as see where it led?
Financial capital, which is what most of the 'employees'/businesspeople were involved in.
max rspct
leave a message
21:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The companies that operated from it were global capitalist companies/institutions.. even if HQs in U.S. New York is a world financial centre.. Hmmm wounder why it was called WTC HUH?The aim was obviously a blow against US-led capitalism. Why should we editorialise on behalf of USTV/media/government/us citizens only/bereaved relatives?? I am beginning to agree with the sentiment that "wikipedia is postmodernism on crack" -- max rspct leave a message 21:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The citations are above. What do you think a declaration of war iz????? More than enough evidence. Don't insult my personal beliefs in order to dissuade me. -- max rspct leave a message 21:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Socialism.. who mentioned anything about that? Maybe you're inherently anti-socialist and thats why u keep reverting. Anti-capitalism does not mean 'socialism'. I have spend over 10years studying in academic institutions.. But that don't matter at all when the article is being controlled by NSA and north americans in general. max rspct leave a message 22:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The "war" is a relious war, not a economic war...The WTC and pentagon were just targets of opportunity for maximum exposure and maximum death and destruction...key elements of terroristic enterprise. Osama has made it clear numerous times that he would like to see a united Islam under one flag, one leader (him in all liklihood) and fundamentalist Islam in theology. The attack on WTC, etc, were not designed to do anything other than to show that he can strike anywhere at anytime...in this endeavour, he succeeded. Osama is smart enough to know that the best way to cripple the U.S. economy is Oil...so had his desires been to truly hurt the U.S. economically, all he has to do is go after the oilfields and supply lines...which would be an easier thing to do anyway.-- MONGO 01:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whatever symbolic value the World Trade Center had within the United States, for global capitalism it was just another office building. The name itself, World Trade Center, makes it a symbol of money and American arrogance. Rightly or wrongly, many people outside the US, including bin Laden's target audience, see those as the sources of American foreign policy. Peter Grey 13:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
jUST another building? That is blatantly untrue. -- max rspct leave a message 14:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
What is "Global capitalism" anyway? Peter Grey 18:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Warning:The following message should be considered Trolling Please skip this message if you would rather not hear the truth (IMHO) The contents of this message may raise your blood pressure.
I want to welcome all newcomers to the September 11 attacks article with a few words of warning.
For those of you who wish to make edits to this page, if you feel that this article is missing relevant facts, please consider the following. Before contributing, ask yourself whether or not your contribution supports the official account of events of 9/11. If it does not, your edits are not welcome here. Only facts that support the official account of events are acceptable. Any facts which do not are considered Conspiracy Theories and should be added to the appropriate article [46].
This guiding principle applies for any and all edits which might be construed as critical of the official accounts. Wikipedia NPOV policy WP:NPOVdoes not apply to this article.
If you are concerned that this article does not appear to be fair and balanced as it does not include any reference to criticism of an obviously contentious topic, please again, take it to Conspiracy Theories. Your contributions are not welcome here.
If you somehow believe that this message doesn't apply to your criticism and that adding your voice to the debate will make a difference. Please don't waste your time trying to resolve your issues on Talk [47]. Take it to the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories site [48]. Your contributions are not welcome here.
Those who provide credible references to relevant facts that dispute the mainstream viewpoint will be shot on sight.
Again, only facts that support the mainstream view of accounts are welcome on this page. All other contributions, regardless of their relevance, credibility of sources, or factual nature are unwelcome. If you hold such views, or simply think that a fair and balanced article, particularly on an issue as controversial as this, should have some mention of the controversy, please take it to the Conspiracy Theories page - you tinfoil hat-wearing nutter! Your contributions are not welcome here.
(The previous slightly tongue-in-cheek, extremely sarcastic, comment was posted by a very frustrated former contributor who has probably said too much already) -- Digiterata 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a place to discuss changes to the article, not to critique US foreign policy, pontificate about the struggle of class against class, or vent about the shortcomings of other users. While occasional off-topic rants are usually tolerated, at a certain point they begin to disrupt our actual work here, which is after all writing an encyclopedia. I think we have passed pased that point. This needs to stop, or we may have to start removing off-topic commentary, and maybe ultimately blocking disruptive users. Tom Harrison Talk 18:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the blocking policy, disruption may include (but is not limited to) changing other users' signed comments, making deliberately misleading edits, harassment, excessive personal attacks, and inserting material that may be defamatory. Tom Harrison Talk 19:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Please do not reduce the font size. The guideline is that article content not include specific font changes, and the Wiki's html generator ( Cascading Style Sheets) owns formatting. It hinders readability by people with some vision impairment to reduce the font size. See WP Manual of Style:Formatting Issues for the details. patsw 01:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Amazing. The September 11 Wiki isn't even linked or listed here? Is this how disconnected the whole Wikipedia and it's sub-sites are? Seeing as I can't seem to find an article on or about the September 11 Wiki; I decided to ask a question I have about it here: what are the reviews saying about the documentary film 9/11 Eyewitness? It's probably b.s., but I was interested in finding out the reactions. Also, why is there a wiki for 9/11 (including the online Memoriam); but nothing like that for other things like, I don't know, Hurricane Katrina victims; or other "disasters" from anywhere outside of the U.S.? Wikipedia isn't an American encyclopia, is it? Another question I have (this is sort of off-topic) is whether or not the articles on Wikipedia in other foreign languages are: 1.) translated via a translator(s), 2.) translated via a program/bot/script, or 3.) completely rewritten in the new language? If it's 3, I feel it's really a waste of time and energy just to rewrite an article from the bottom up all over again per each language. THis same question applies to the Wikipedia project (yet another project/sub-site I stumbled upon) Simple English Wikipedia; shouldn't they attempt to simplify existing articles, instead of completely rewriting them in simple English? (sorry, but speaking of sub-sites and Wikipedia projects; has there been an effort to sort of gather and organize everything that has sprouted from Wikipedia [not article-wise]? I mean, it seems like everyday, I stumble upon a new project/subsite/group/etc., and it was because of luck that I found it [or else, it would never have happened]. For example, I found the 911 wikipedia, the simple english wikipedia, a group within Wikipedia that seeks to address problems; a similar group that is less "official", a " Counter-Vandalism Unit", and so on. There really needs to be an effort to group everything together, into an umbrella-article -- there are so many great "wikiprojects" out there which may never see the light of day, or can not be "advertised" or shown to the public.)
The article had nothing about the failure to find the black boxes of both planes at the World Tade Center. I added a sentence about the failure to find them (and witnesses who reported finding them), but StuffOfInterest deleted it with the terse comment that it belongs on the Conspiracy Theory page. I disagree. I think some discussion of the black boxes is quite relevant, and the article has it for the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. More generally, editors who delete contributions fully cited to accepted sources should have to explain what they think they're doing. -- JustFacts 15:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you guys know, the United States article is on featured article candidates list, so you can cast your vote there- or not.-- Ryz05 19:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello - I don't have the power to make this edit, so I'm offering the suggestion to someone who does. Under "The "War on Terrorism" subsection of "Government Response," I think it would be useful to add a short additional sentance after the last paragraph: "As of March 2006, thirty-five New York City residents have died fight in the war in Iraq. Thousands more have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan and returned. Another 8,000 New Yorkers remain on active military duty." (Source: Gotham Gazette) 206.15.138.244 00:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be an overwhelming number of pictures regarding New York, but only one each of the pennslyvania and pentagon tragedies, which were as much a part of 9/11 as New York. There needs to be a balance between them. Thoughts?-- Gephart 00:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I've trimmed the intro, removing the short paragraph on the "aftermath" - War on Terrorism, ... I really don't think it's needed in the intro, but if someone feels otherwise then go ahead and readd it. - Aude ( talk | contribs) 03:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know that the WTC was lined with copper! Thanks for clearing that up, MONGO! Notwithstanding that the totality of copper-cabling on several floors couldn't account for the volume of molten metal seen cascading from a corner on one floor of the South Tower in the minute prior to collapse, the following relevant quotes about maximum fire temperatures in buildings, from one of the official papers, refutes your folk-theory - because copper melts at 1084C:
"The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1,000°C—hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1,500°C. But it is VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH THIS maximum temperature with a diffuse flame. This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500°C to 650°C range." ( Egan and Musso, 2001). Confabulous 07:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Are you familiar with any other tall building fires that caused a spectacular stream of glowing molten metal, indentical in appearance to the result of a thermite reaction, to cascade from the burning building, MONGO? What kind of metal glows bright-yellow in broad daylight when melted at building fire temperatures? Why do defenders of the official dogma have to pretend that the spectacular stream of glowing molten metal cascading from the tower prior to its collapse didn't happen, or was too mundane to require any kind of rational explanation? Why are defenders of the official dogma so hostile to the facts that contradict it? Recall that Galileo was actually permitted to present his evidence challenging the official dogma, so long as he adopted a NPOV when comparing the "Two Chief World Systems." He was subsequently imprisoned and forced to recant on the basis that his dialogue was biased in favor of the Copernican POV. But the real reason for the persecution of Galileo was that his Copernican explanation - his abstract scientific model - did a much better job of explaining observations in the real world than did the official one. I suspect, MONGO, that you wouldn't have permitted Galileo to publish his book in the first place. Confabulous 09:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC) (typo corrected, clarity and precision modified) Confabulous 10:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Every tall building fire, MONGO, has resulted in "something burning coming off them." We call them "flames" in technical parlance. If what you flippantly and incorrectly described as "something burning" refers to the stream of brightly glowing molten metal cascading from the South tower (the molten metal that isn't actually "burning" (see oxidation)), then there is certainly no precedent. When fire raged for 3.5 hours in the 62 story First Interstate Bank Building in LA, gutting four and a half floors, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. When fire raged for 18 hours at 1 Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia, gutting eight floors, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. When fire raged for 17 hours in a 56 story steel-framed tower in Caracas, Venezuala, gutting twenty-six floors and causing two of them to collapse, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. When fire raged through the Windsor Building in Madrid causing non-symmetrical and gradual collapse of several floors over a timespan of around 3 hours, no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. And when fire spread through six floors of the World Trade Center, North Tower, in 1975 (3 hours), no stream of molten metal of any kind was photographed, filmed, or reported. If you can find any example of this or a similar molten phenomena occuring in conjunction with any building fire on earth, please supply it. As for my understanding of proof, I suspect it's a tad more sophisticated than yours, and I find the question insulting coming from the kind of person who could cheerfuly assign the word " speculation" to a list of documented and referenced facts. You already tried to encourage another contributor to take only what they can "prove" to the washingtonpost instead of wasting time with that nasty stuff called evidence here at "the people's encyclopedia." When I mentioned that the washington post was certainly responsible for censoring Pentagon witness reportage (C-130), you demanded proof. But when given the proof you simply ignored it - it didn't happen! When I pointed out that seizure and suppression of Pentagon attack footage is, by definition, a coverup, you ignored that proof too - it didn't happen either! - not part of the official Arab-framing dogma! - move along! Five Israeli men -- Judeofascists perhaps, MONGO? -- were certainly arrested and detained as "suspected conspirators" on the afternoon of the attacks with, quote, "maps linking them to the bombing plot" [Bergen Record, Forward, Haaretz] and again, there is nothing to see here in the main article concerning these remarkable events that transpired on that remarkably evil day - so keep on moving. Video footage, and photos too, show a cascade of bright yellow molten metal preceding collapse -- but we can't document even that here, because the exact composition of the metal in the cascade can't be determined with 100% certainty, and because it might be one of those torrents of molten filing-cabinets that you often see pouring from office fires with such contempt for sufficient temperature! (in the way cars melt in a forest fire!) Confabulous 14:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC) (typofixmaticized) Confabulous 14:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Exactly...it amazes me that these controlled demolition advocates seem to miss the basic point that none of the other buildings they cite as being comparable were hit by wide body jets flying at over 500mph and vitually full of aviation fuel. There are also key elements of Confabulous' comments that also miss the point. a)...hundreds of video cameras and media captured all or some of the collapse sequence from various aspects. Naturally, many things were observed at the WTC that were not observed at these other fires...which were also not fueled by aviation fuel. b)...no one knows what that is that is "pouring" out of the building and the controlled demolition advocates continue to state that it is iron due to it's color...maybe it is...but this doesn't mean that a thermite reaction is taking place as they wish some to think. c)...my knowledge of fire is pretty high. I have been to an engine academy, and was a stike team leader on wildland forest fires. On a fire I was involved in back in 1994, a car thief took the vehicle he stole into Croatan National Forest on the North Carolina coast and set fire to it to cover his tracks...this started a 25,000 acre fire and I did witness that this same stolen vehicle had portions of it's body reduced to slag...it had melted and pooled. Those five Israeli men were released...and the point there is what? I see...yes, the zionists did this so the U.S. would wage war in the middle east and the U.S. let them do it. Well, okay, that's simply retarded. Document facts eh...where...I see not one that is proof of controlled demolition. Confabulous has no idea what proof is and it would be amusing to say the least to see him submit his "proof" to any reputable news media, trade journal on civil engineering or elsewhere...I imagine their pain threshold for nonsense is significantly lower than ours is.-- MONGO 02:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Good day to all,
I have recently become aware of the 9/11 Truth Movement. While I find the movement's allegations to be disturbing and hopefully untrue, as a trained social scientist I must consider the claims from an objective point of view. I have recently attempted to add Wikipedia links to 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth from the main 9/11 Wikipedia page. Within minutes of doing so, they have been removed. While I understand the controversial nature of this information, Wikipedia is a general information service. To delete or censor information because it is contestable is a disservice to the Wikipedia community. To seek objective truth is the primary role of Wikipedia. I ask that the individual or individuals who are deleting references to the 9/11 Truth Movement refrain from their censorship. To hide information that is controversial interferes with those of us seeking to better understand the cause and effects of the tragedy of September 11th. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joetkeck ( talk • contribs) .
Joetkeck 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC) In response,have you reviewed these sources? I believe it to be credible and truthful to state that "an increasing number of individuals are asking for further investigation" as part of the 9/11 Truth Movement.
Joetkeck 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Good day. I have only yesterday become involved in contributing to Wikipedia and have not reviewed the extensive discussion archives on this page. Nevertheless,I consider verifiability to be synonomous with truth and, thus, to refer people to the real Wikipedia pages 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth is a positive and objective contribution for people to extend their knowledge.
Joetkeck 23:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC) Good day, while I may be misunderstanding your comment, I would hope that we work to create an objective entry that does not create bias. To mention the Truth Movement is both objective and verifiable, the exact methodology for a good encyclopedia.
Joetkeck
68.254.110.51
18:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC) I claimed that I have not yet read this wikipedia discussion regarding the controversy surrounding the
9/11 Truth Movement. I too hope that it is proven to be biased non-sense, but until the adamant within the movement are given ample opportunity to present their evidence then, as a trained social scientist, I can not dismiss their claims simply because I do not want them to be true. I encourage those who object to allowing reference to
Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, for example, refrain from their censorship. Allow others to judge for themselves whether these claims are worthy of consideration.
Joetkeck
68.254.110.51
18:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Good day to all of you who are following this discussion. This is what I have just read regarding those who monitor and remove objective information from this entry:
I want to welcome all newcomers to the September 11 attacks article with a few words of warning.
For those of you who wish to make edits to this page, if you feel that this article is missing relevant facts, please consider the following. Before contributing, ask yourself whether or not your contribution supports the official account of events of 9/11. If it does not, your edits are not welcome here. Only facts that support the official account of events are acceptable. Any facts which do not are considered Conspiracy Theories and should be added to the appropriate article [49].
Joetkeck
68.254.110.51
18:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Please note, while I am not yet one among them, many individuals do not subscribe to the notion of discussing potential evidence of wrongdoing as conspiratorial. To refer people to the
9/11 Truth Movement should not be restricted on the main 9/11 page. i hope those of you who are censoring soon come to agree. Thank you.
Joetkeck How quickly my contribution is removed! You, or each of you, must moniter this page w/o sleep. My contribution is fair and accurate:
To question the validity of these outstanding claims, an increasing number of individuals are asking for further investigation. See 9/11 Truth Movement, Researchers Questioning the Official Account of 9/11, and Scholars for 9/11 Truth.
Please allow fairness at Wikipedia. To not do so implies bias and, thus, censorship
Joetkeck 2:33 pm Central Let's see if my contribution as already been stripped --
Joetkeck 2:36 pm No, not yet.
I note on the IRA section you ask not to use the word 'terrorist' or 'terrorists'. Yet on this article it is used. This is against your own rules! Or is it when IRA killed British people that was allowed, whereas when Islamists killed Americans this is not allowed, therefore they are 'Islamist terrorists'. Please explain Bettybutt ( talk) 05:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I have copied the following from discussion page 'Wikipedia has a policy of not calling people or groups "terrorist". This is not an indication of condoning "terrorist" activities, but of neutrality, and avoidance of passing judgment, affirming or denying. Please debate the merit of this policy at WT:Words to avoid, not here.'
It is POLICY to NOT use the term Terrorist, nowhere does it say it's fine if the UN uses the word. The British, Irish and American Governments used the word about IRA, so that ought to be just as acceptable. Bettybutt ( talk) 04:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The Chambers dictionary defines 'terrorism' as thus:- terrorism noun the systematic and organized use of violence and intimidation to force a government or community, etc to act in a certain way or accept certain demands. terrorist noun, adj. ETYMOLOGY: 18c.
It can be successfully argued that the primary objective of the September 11 attacks was not terrorism as it is defined above. Given that the two principle targets were one major military target (Pentagon) and one major economic/financial target (World Trade Center) the attacks can be considered nothing short of a conventional (albeit 'home-made'/improvised) military attack against a country's infrastructure with a view to decimating said infrastructure. This is completely different from terrorism where the primary objective is to terrorise. An example of proper terrorism would be low-flying Israeli F-16s routinely breaking the sound barrier over the civilian population of Gaza. This isn't POV either; it's just that there cannot be any objective to breaking the sound barrier over a civilian population other than to create fear / terror. While it is true that the people of New York and those directly affected by the attacks of September 11 may well have been terrified it is not neccessarily true that the primary objective of the attacks was to create terror, but instead to destroy a central part of America's infrastructure. The opening days of the 2003 Iraq war, saw the so-called 'Shock and Awe' - a military attack against the Baathist infrastructure. There is no doubt that the civilian population of Baghdad would naturally have been terrified during such attack - but that does not mean that Shock and Awe was an act of terrorism carried out by terrorists. The September 11 attacks are no different. 81.141.105.11 ( talk) 16:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I submit part of a transcript from an interview between Osama Bin Laden and Al-Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alounim, dated October 2001. The full-length interview is quite lengthy and I have posted a link to it below. This particular segment supports the notion that al-Qaeda was intending to destroy the central-nerve system of America, as opposed to terrorise:-
BIN LADEN: However, this prohibition of the killing of children and innocents is not absolute. It is not absolute. There are other texts that restrict it. I agree that the Prophet Mohammed forbade the killing of babies and women. That is true, but this is not absolute. There is a saying, "If the infidels killed women and children on purpose, we shouldn't shy way from treating them in the same way to stop them from doing it again." The men that God helped [attack, on September 11] did not intend to kill babies; they intended to destroy the strongest military power in the world, to attack the Pentagon that houses more than 64,000 employees, a military center that houses the strength and the military intelligence.
Q: How about the twin towers?
BIN LADEN: The towers are an economic power and not a children's school. Those that were there are men that supported the biggest economic power in the world. They have to review their books. We will do as they do. If they kill our women and our innocent people, we will kill their women and their innocent people until they stop.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/05/binladen.transcript/index.html 81.141.105.11 ( talk) 03:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Even so, I think there is a successful case for disagreement and debate on this issue. The past nine years has seen the use of language manipulated for propaganda purposes by forces whose objectives have subsequently been rendered questionable by popular culture. In such times, the dictionary should be the bible in determining truth, and not the polymorphic rudiments of a particular era's Government, or Government's propaganda campaign. Until such time as the question mark surrounding the intent of the attackers is cleared up, I suggest 'Islamic terrorists' should be replaced with 'Islamic militants' - a far more semantically stable definition, of which I'm sure everyone can agree on. 81.141.110.96 ( talk) 08:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Al-qaeda was responsible for the September 11 attacks. In the wikipedia entry for Al-qaeda, the opening paragraph describes Al-qaeda as a 'Sunni Islamist Extremist movement' as it's principal definition. 81.141.110.96 ( talk) 18:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
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