This article is within the scope of WikiProject Thailand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Thailand-related articles on Wikipedia. The WikiProject is also a part of the
Counteracting systematic bias group aiming to provide a wider and more detailed coverage on countries and areas of the encyclopedia which are notably less developed than the rest. If you would like to help improve this and other Thailand-related articles, please
join the project. All interested editors are welcome.ThailandWikipedia:WikiProject ThailandTemplate:WikiProject ThailandThailand articles
Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2019 and 4 December 2019. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Jiraz.
The division of colors by political party is only a political analysis. Because the numbers mentioned may be uncertain or inaccurate. And another thing is that senators must not be members of any political party.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I argue that the spirit of the Constitution requires that the Senate be independent of political parties. The analysis of academics should not be taken as the guiding point.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:12, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
They are not really "nonpartisan" and I believe it would be more beneficial to labelling de facto composition. --
Horus (
talk)
07:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You must also take the spirit of the Constitution into consideration. If you want to divide the colors, you have to divide them according to professional groups or it is best to use gray according to the spirit of the constitution.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The same goes for the 250 senators appointed by the military government. Although there are divisions Between
Prayut Chan-o-cha and
Prawit Wongsuwon, but it was changed to black to be consistent with the fact that all members were appointed and independent from political parties.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:31, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The split between Prayut or Pravit camps means little when come to the votes (as evident in many unanimous results). While the 2024 chamber already shown camps like factions or blocs. Although I concede that the blocs are not evidently defined now, I'm pretty certain the split will only grow larger. --
Horus (
talk)
07:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure why readers would be interested in "source" (separated by profession group or province or whatever) more than their likely voting intention (i.e. voting blocs). The EU parliament also have voting blocs and labelled as such. See
2024 European Parliament election --
Horus (
talk)
07:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's not the same at all. European elections clearly establish alliances In the various alliances there are also political parties in each country. This is different from the election of senators in Thailand which is chosen from a professional group. without forming an alliance
Preime TH (
talk)
10:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, but Canada officially establishes the group even though it is not registered. Like political groups that run in local elections in Thailand. It is not an academic's analysis.
Preime TH (
talk)
11:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
No, it's not an academic's analysis. The numbers came from the vote on the President. Three names were put forward (coincidence?). One have already named themselves. Another two were described by the media. It's basically an open secret so to say.
As for the need to create a diagram for 20 professions, go ahead. I think putting two diagrams together does not hurt.
Otherwise, we can put on a diagram with some 10-20 people labelled as "New Breed Senators" and the rest as independent. Since you conceded to the Canadian example. --
Horus (
talk)
14:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
nonsense The intent of the Thai Senate according to the constitution is to be independent from politics. You can't use context anywhere else.
Preime TH (
talk)
14:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's no surprise that I don't like editing the Thai Wikipedia. English Wikipedia is free to write or edit articles. (As long as it's authentic, encyclopedic, and reasonable.) But Thai Wikipedia isn't bad. But I feel like it's a bit strict. Especially system auditors who have quite a lot of issues. Then take your own thoughts into consideration.
Preime TH (
talk)
14:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
What context? Are you following Thai politics? The new chamber is not independent from politics like at all. See for yourself
[2]. I've never seen Wikipedia bend to the self-description of any authorities. One of the obvious example is
North Korea which had "democratic" in its name but is described as "a totalitarian hereditary dictatorship." --
Horus (
talk)
14:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
No, I'm Thai. I understand the Thai political context well. But I think the new generation of senators or blue I think that's just a partial opinion. It doesn't make any sense. Yes, I understand that there are now new and blue senators. But you also have to look at the spirit of the Constitution. Therefore, you must not have a big ego. I think I'm good at being alone.
Preime TH (
talk)
15:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
User:Panam2014 Hello, I would like some advice from you, namely according to the constitution. Thai senators must not be or belong to a political party. But some users argued that senators are not independent of political parties. As a Thai person, I accept that it is not free. But this is Wikipedia (the free encyclopedia). Writing or editing must be in accordance with the law or the constitution. The context in each country is different.
Preime TH (
talk)
15:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Panam2014 No. The Thai Constitution stipulates that senators must not be members of any political party on the day they run for election. If you have been a minister or mayor, you must take a gap of 5 years.
Preime TH (
talk)
22:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
If you accuse me of being egoistic, how about you are an ignorant? So if you have nothing against the two diagram compromise, I think I will go ahead with the inclusion. Just find a reasonable objection and point it out. I'm not starting another quarrel here. --
Horus (
talk) 15:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)--
Horus (
talk)
15:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The information box should contain only de jure information. See, for example, the Indonesian
Regional Representative Council. I think politics has also been dominated and divided into color groups. But in the information box, it is classified as only 1 group that is
non-partisan in order to be consistent with the constitution.
Preime TH (
talk)
22:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You cannot use Canada's case as an excuse. Because he announced that he would openly form a group. It's different from Thailand's which is not clearly disclosed.
Preime TH (
talk)
06:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Preime TH:@
Horus: Hi Preime TH, I believe you contacted me through my user page. While I'm not an expert in Thai constitution and laws (I'm more interested in Thai history), I believe that the dispute here is about whether or not the seat diagram should show the de facto political factions in the Senate. Preime wants to follow the Thai Constitution, which stated that all Senate members are nonpartisan. On the other hand, Horus wants to show the de facto political division in the Thai Senate.
Technically, I kinda prefer to show the de jure information. For example (as stated by Preime above), the Indonesian Senate (the
Regional Representative Council) is nonpartisan, and its members are thus diagrammed as nonpartisan in the infobox (even though some members of the Indonesian Senate may have ties to certain political parties). Then again, the Indonesian Senate is mostly powerless. I think, de facto political division (as preferred by Horus) could only be shown if those political divisions are backed by reliable sources.
RyanW1995 (
talk)
09:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
RyanW1995 I understand, but the numbers Horus quoted may be inaccurate and uncertain. In the era when Thailand had under a Senate appointed by the military government, there was a division between Prayut's side, Prawit's side, and those who did not favor any side. But for the same reason, the numbers may be inaccurate or uncertain. together with the intent of the constitution that wants the Senate to be independent from political parties and perform its duty as a check on politicians (if not counting the power to select independent organizations The Thai Senate is considered to have almost no political power at all, except for 250 senators who have just left office.)
Preime TH (
talk)
09:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Having also been asked to comment on this issue, I don't believe the voting blocs diagram should be shown, particularly as it appears to have been based on a single vote (for the president of the Senate). It would be appropriate to discuss any apparent blocs in the aftermath section of
2024 Thai Senate election, although only if sources were consistent (
this one used to source the diagram and
this one mentioned above don't seem to align). I also note the diagram does not match the source (putting 153 in the Blue senator group despite 159 voting for Surasat).
Also, a reminder about
WP:BRD and
WP:3RR, the former not being respected and the latter being broken by two of you. Any further edit warring on the article will result in blocks being handed out.
Number5715:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The diagram on voting of the President are the only significant vote so far, with sources grouping factions by the nominated candidates. This voting pattern may change in the future, but political diagrams already need update every time when people switch parties or allegiance, so I see no need to wait until they will not switch in the future. --
Horus (
talk)
16:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The actual vote (sourced by Thansettakij) is a more concrete evidence that analysis before the vote (sourced by Matichon), so the former is used to show factions. --
Horus (
talk)
16:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Horus No, the information you present is distorted. Yes, I accept that most of the senators are supported by the Bhumjaithai Party. But according to the constitution, they cannot be members of political parties. You were once a true administrator of Wikipedia. But you altered it in a distorted way. The numbers you present are only the votes of the Senate President. If you still confirm that your color division is correct. It may cause misunderstandings, especially by foreigners. And another thing is that it goes against the spirit of the 2017 Constitution, which requires the Senate to be independent from political parties.
Preime TH (
talk)
23:06, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The 250-person Senate is composed of 194 members selected by the ruling junta. Fifty senators represent ten professional and forty social groups: bureaucrats, teachers, judges, farmers, and private companies. A shortlist of 200 were proposed to the NCPO which made the final selection of fifty. The remaining six Senate positions are reserved for the supreme commander of the Armed Forces, the defence permanent secretary, the national police chief, and the heads of the army, navy, and air force, who are all senators ex officio. As of 2020, 104 out of the 250 senators are police or military officers.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Thailand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Thailand-related articles on Wikipedia. The WikiProject is also a part of the
Counteracting systematic bias group aiming to provide a wider and more detailed coverage on countries and areas of the encyclopedia which are notably less developed than the rest. If you would like to help improve this and other Thailand-related articles, please
join the project. All interested editors are welcome.ThailandWikipedia:WikiProject ThailandTemplate:WikiProject ThailandThailand articles
Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2019 and 4 December 2019. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Jiraz.
The division of colors by political party is only a political analysis. Because the numbers mentioned may be uncertain or inaccurate. And another thing is that senators must not be members of any political party.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I argue that the spirit of the Constitution requires that the Senate be independent of political parties. The analysis of academics should not be taken as the guiding point.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:12, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
They are not really "nonpartisan" and I believe it would be more beneficial to labelling de facto composition. --
Horus (
talk)
07:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You must also take the spirit of the Constitution into consideration. If you want to divide the colors, you have to divide them according to professional groups or it is best to use gray according to the spirit of the constitution.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The same goes for the 250 senators appointed by the military government. Although there are divisions Between
Prayut Chan-o-cha and
Prawit Wongsuwon, but it was changed to black to be consistent with the fact that all members were appointed and independent from political parties.
Preime TH (
talk)
07:31, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The split between Prayut or Pravit camps means little when come to the votes (as evident in many unanimous results). While the 2024 chamber already shown camps like factions or blocs. Although I concede that the blocs are not evidently defined now, I'm pretty certain the split will only grow larger. --
Horus (
talk)
07:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure why readers would be interested in "source" (separated by profession group or province or whatever) more than their likely voting intention (i.e. voting blocs). The EU parliament also have voting blocs and labelled as such. See
2024 European Parliament election --
Horus (
talk)
07:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's not the same at all. European elections clearly establish alliances In the various alliances there are also political parties in each country. This is different from the election of senators in Thailand which is chosen from a professional group. without forming an alliance
Preime TH (
talk)
10:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, but Canada officially establishes the group even though it is not registered. Like political groups that run in local elections in Thailand. It is not an academic's analysis.
Preime TH (
talk)
11:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
No, it's not an academic's analysis. The numbers came from the vote on the President. Three names were put forward (coincidence?). One have already named themselves. Another two were described by the media. It's basically an open secret so to say.
As for the need to create a diagram for 20 professions, go ahead. I think putting two diagrams together does not hurt.
Otherwise, we can put on a diagram with some 10-20 people labelled as "New Breed Senators" and the rest as independent. Since you conceded to the Canadian example. --
Horus (
talk)
14:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
nonsense The intent of the Thai Senate according to the constitution is to be independent from politics. You can't use context anywhere else.
Preime TH (
talk)
14:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's no surprise that I don't like editing the Thai Wikipedia. English Wikipedia is free to write or edit articles. (As long as it's authentic, encyclopedic, and reasonable.) But Thai Wikipedia isn't bad. But I feel like it's a bit strict. Especially system auditors who have quite a lot of issues. Then take your own thoughts into consideration.
Preime TH (
talk)
14:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
What context? Are you following Thai politics? The new chamber is not independent from politics like at all. See for yourself
[2]. I've never seen Wikipedia bend to the self-description of any authorities. One of the obvious example is
North Korea which had "democratic" in its name but is described as "a totalitarian hereditary dictatorship." --
Horus (
talk)
14:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
No, I'm Thai. I understand the Thai political context well. But I think the new generation of senators or blue I think that's just a partial opinion. It doesn't make any sense. Yes, I understand that there are now new and blue senators. But you also have to look at the spirit of the Constitution. Therefore, you must not have a big ego. I think I'm good at being alone.
Preime TH (
talk)
15:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
User:Panam2014 Hello, I would like some advice from you, namely according to the constitution. Thai senators must not be or belong to a political party. But some users argued that senators are not independent of political parties. As a Thai person, I accept that it is not free. But this is Wikipedia (the free encyclopedia). Writing or editing must be in accordance with the law or the constitution. The context in each country is different.
Preime TH (
talk)
15:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Panam2014 No. The Thai Constitution stipulates that senators must not be members of any political party on the day they run for election. If you have been a minister or mayor, you must take a gap of 5 years.
Preime TH (
talk)
22:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
If you accuse me of being egoistic, how about you are an ignorant? So if you have nothing against the two diagram compromise, I think I will go ahead with the inclusion. Just find a reasonable objection and point it out. I'm not starting another quarrel here. --
Horus (
talk) 15:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)--
Horus (
talk)
15:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The information box should contain only de jure information. See, for example, the Indonesian
Regional Representative Council. I think politics has also been dominated and divided into color groups. But in the information box, it is classified as only 1 group that is
non-partisan in order to be consistent with the constitution.
Preime TH (
talk)
22:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You cannot use Canada's case as an excuse. Because he announced that he would openly form a group. It's different from Thailand's which is not clearly disclosed.
Preime TH (
talk)
06:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Preime TH:@
Horus: Hi Preime TH, I believe you contacted me through my user page. While I'm not an expert in Thai constitution and laws (I'm more interested in Thai history), I believe that the dispute here is about whether or not the seat diagram should show the de facto political factions in the Senate. Preime wants to follow the Thai Constitution, which stated that all Senate members are nonpartisan. On the other hand, Horus wants to show the de facto political division in the Thai Senate.
Technically, I kinda prefer to show the de jure information. For example (as stated by Preime above), the Indonesian Senate (the
Regional Representative Council) is nonpartisan, and its members are thus diagrammed as nonpartisan in the infobox (even though some members of the Indonesian Senate may have ties to certain political parties). Then again, the Indonesian Senate is mostly powerless. I think, de facto political division (as preferred by Horus) could only be shown if those political divisions are backed by reliable sources.
RyanW1995 (
talk)
09:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
RyanW1995 I understand, but the numbers Horus quoted may be inaccurate and uncertain. In the era when Thailand had under a Senate appointed by the military government, there was a division between Prayut's side, Prawit's side, and those who did not favor any side. But for the same reason, the numbers may be inaccurate or uncertain. together with the intent of the constitution that wants the Senate to be independent from political parties and perform its duty as a check on politicians (if not counting the power to select independent organizations The Thai Senate is considered to have almost no political power at all, except for 250 senators who have just left office.)
Preime TH (
talk)
09:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Having also been asked to comment on this issue, I don't believe the voting blocs diagram should be shown, particularly as it appears to have been based on a single vote (for the president of the Senate). It would be appropriate to discuss any apparent blocs in the aftermath section of
2024 Thai Senate election, although only if sources were consistent (
this one used to source the diagram and
this one mentioned above don't seem to align). I also note the diagram does not match the source (putting 153 in the Blue senator group despite 159 voting for Surasat).
Also, a reminder about
WP:BRD and
WP:3RR, the former not being respected and the latter being broken by two of you. Any further edit warring on the article will result in blocks being handed out.
Number5715:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The diagram on voting of the President are the only significant vote so far, with sources grouping factions by the nominated candidates. This voting pattern may change in the future, but political diagrams already need update every time when people switch parties or allegiance, so I see no need to wait until they will not switch in the future. --
Horus (
talk)
16:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The actual vote (sourced by Thansettakij) is a more concrete evidence that analysis before the vote (sourced by Matichon), so the former is used to show factions. --
Horus (
talk)
16:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Horus No, the information you present is distorted. Yes, I accept that most of the senators are supported by the Bhumjaithai Party. But according to the constitution, they cannot be members of political parties. You were once a true administrator of Wikipedia. But you altered it in a distorted way. The numbers you present are only the votes of the Senate President. If you still confirm that your color division is correct. It may cause misunderstandings, especially by foreigners. And another thing is that it goes against the spirit of the 2017 Constitution, which requires the Senate to be independent from political parties.
Preime TH (
talk)
23:06, 24 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The 250-person Senate is composed of 194 members selected by the ruling junta. Fifty senators represent ten professional and forty social groups: bureaucrats, teachers, judges, farmers, and private companies. A shortlist of 200 were proposed to the NCPO which made the final selection of fifty. The remaining six Senate positions are reserved for the supreme commander of the Armed Forces, the defence permanent secretary, the national police chief, and the heads of the army, navy, and air force, who are all senators ex officio. As of 2020, 104 out of the 250 senators are police or military officers.