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Was semper fidelis restored as the motto of todays L'viv?
The motto of the Spanish Tercios was always "Semper Fidelis" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.240.3 ( talk) 21:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Who are the Devonshire regiment? All it says is that they're known as the 11th... 205.174.22.28 02:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Common on the arms of cities; see Hamburg, for instance ( http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/senat/service/wappen/start.html). Thus not coincidence, because the castle represents a city. Often the crest above civic arms is a mural crown (looks like wall with battlements).
Spanish-speaking countries are very fond of civic appellations as "Muy Noble y Muy Leal," generally given by a sovreign in appreciation of loyalty in times of civil strife. Alfonxo X praised Seville as loyal: "No me han dejado" ("they did not abandon me") and so the civic arms show skein of yarn (madeja; it looks like an elongated figure 8) between the words "No Do," making a rebus of the king's praise.
This page has been re-ordered several times, I suspect with enthusiasts for each of the owners of the motto wanting to put "their" organisation first. Could I plead that we adopt some consistent policy, and that it be ordering by date of acquisition, which is at least objective? However I can quite see that enthusiasts for the US Marines might not like their Corps being buried under historic cities, so I have put in some headings to force up a Table of Contents in the hope of keeping everyone reasonably happy.
seglea 20:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
How is "Semper Fi" pronounced? Should be "Fi" as in "Hi-Fi", right? Because I heard a lot of "Fi"s as in "Five".
The "Fi" in "Hi-Fi" sounds the same as "Fi" in "Five".
It's pronounced fi as in fish!
Every time I've heard it pronounced it has been the same as "Fi" in "Five". However for that matter I've never heard anyone prononuce "Fi" from "Hi-Fi" as in "Fish"! Understandably it's an abbrevation of Fidelity but I'm yet to come across anyone who doesn't pronounce the pair Hi and Fi to match! -- 77.102.144.218 ( talk) 03:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Semper Fidelis is a latin term meaning always(semper) faithful(fidelis), and the correct pronunciation is "Fi" like "Fee", but the marine corp and other military organizations say it "Fie" way due to habit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.171.31 ( talk) 21:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I doubt that one could say that there is a correct pronunciation of the Latin. Those of us who were taught classical Latin at school were told to pronounce words like "fidelis" with a short i, as in fish. But (a) we can't really say with much confidence how the Romans pronounced them and (b) once you abbreviate the word, it's almost impossible to pronounce "fi" like that anyway. As far as I know, from the end of the Roman empire, the pronunciation of Latin diverged in different countries - drastically in the vernacular, giving rise to Italian, Spanish etc - but to some extent even in Church and learned circles. "Semper fidelis" as a motto is medieval not classical Latin, and by the middle ages time people were probably pronouncing it however was easiest given their native languages. So if the Marines want to pronounce it "Semper Fie", I would say good luck to them: they are almost certainly following in the footsteps of the people who first used it as a motto. Just so long as they don't forget that we in Exeter were using it first! seglea ( talk) 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The semper fidelis(.mp3) link doesn't work.
The story that the motto was granted by Elizabeth I to Exeter, though widely reported (e.g. on the Exeter City Council web page) is proving hard to source. The letter reported in the story is not in the city archives, according to the Devon Record Office who hold them. Exeter's arms were granted in 1547 and the formal description of the grant doesn't include the motto; and John Hooker's map of Exeter of 1587 ( found here) clearly shows the arms without the motto. It would be good to document this one. seglea 01:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The following statement from the article seemed a bit POV:
I believe the statement would be better worded:
This wording conveys the same information but does not shed biased towards the USMC. I'm a huge fan of the Marines, but I think saying they "inherently" have dedication is a bit much. Saying most or all marines do might be okay if well worded, but Marines do not "inherently" have dedication. -- Matthew 00:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a slight bug: "...Per Terram" is the motto of the Royal Marines. Really. So
is actually not making a lot of sense. Are we saying the two Marines swapped mottoes? And do we mean the period 1805ish to 1843 was "...Tripoli" ? It's needlessly complicated at the minute. I can understand adopting the Tripoli one immediately after the Barbary War, but adopting it and then a decade later adopting the motto of an enemy victor (who themselves had only adopted it in the 1780's) seems flighty at best.
Since we've only got two dates and three mottoes, was there competition, unofficial adoption or what? The only other way to make sense of this seems to be to accept "Fortitudine" as some kind of homage to the RM motto. Which is confusing a whole other way. 172.143.144.156 22:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The phrase "Semper Fi" was also used (allbeit just once) by John Dalton in the video-game Unreal2
I though Semper Fi meant Forever Faithful, or is my Latin wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.71.152 ( talk) 03:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The correct translation is actually "Always faithful", since the latin for "forever" is not "semper" but, more likely, "in perpetuum". Tommaso Leso —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.37.202.244 ( talk) 23:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
The family histories are interesting, but only need briefly mentioned as this this an article on Semper fi, not those families. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
They also have semper fidelis as the motto. Mallerd ( talk) 21:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
It seems that, over a period of time, this article has become a bit of a random list of families, places, and organizations; most without citations. Semper fidelis seems to be a popular motto. Not every group that has it as its motto should be included in this article. I propose that there should be some basic criteria to decide whether an entry should be included.
Here are some ideas:
— ERcheck ( talk) 21:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Some time ago we removed all the sports clubs from this page on the grounds that they were clutter. Another one has just appeared, posted by an anon; I have removed it but paste it in here in case we want to reinstate that section. Note that the club is apparently notable as defined above as there is a link to a page, but so were the other clubs we booted out.
Semper Fidelis is the motto of BLUE PRIDE, a fanclub of the most beloved Bulgarian football club
seglea ( talk) 20:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else in favour of cutting out the entire - and growing - trivia section? seglea ( talk) 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Rocmc.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --13:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This link does not goto the USMC history of seals. Possibly needs to be cut. -- 173.88.157.204 ( talk) 17:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
An anon had added Ffrench to the list of families using Semper fidelis as a motto. I have removed it as it is not documented by Burke, who gives their motto as Malo mori quam foedari or Mors potius macula. If you wish to reinsert this please provide a source. seglea ( talk) 20:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that "Semper Fidelis" (the march by Sousa) should have its own entry apart from this one? I suspect it would stand on its own well enough; I'd be inclined to create it myself unless anyone strenuously disagrees. Blandoon ( talk) 18:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
An anon had removed the last few edits for no obvious reason. I have restored them, but in so doing may have removed some more recent valid edits - apologies if so. seglea ( talk) 23:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I looked up "Semper Fi" (for about the umpteenth time) when hearing or reading it (for about the umpteenth time) in Amercan films or books.
Not being from an Anglo_Saxon or _Latin_ culture, it keeps confusing me.
Being proud of my country and of the deeds of my elders, I find it impossible to understand or condone the "derogatory usage"?
Is anybody interested in explaining it to me? And to others keen on reading, watchin, and understanding? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.156.41.149 ( talk) 20:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
An anon had added Scanlon to the list of families using the motto. That may well be accurate, but that part of the articles starts out, "B. Burke (1884, p. 1180) lists the following..." and Scanlon is not in Burke's list. We could add a list of families not listed by Burke, but we would need evidence of their use. seglea ( talk) 13:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC).
Similarly Snowden seglea ( talk) 09:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
this is although used by the german army's medic corps, could add this anybody in proper english? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.211.56 ( talk) 02:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Could you please add the now disbanded Devon and Dorset Regiment of the British Army who also proudly have Semper Fidelis as their moto and on their cap badge.
Thanks
Mike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.231.55 ( talk) 10:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I would like to see some information on when this abbreviation became prevalent. I find it difficult to believe that this abbreviation was in common use in the 19th century, for instance. Thank you in advance! (Unregistered user, June 19, 2015) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.113.59 ( talk) 10:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Is "Semper paratus" a response to this? Saw this on NCIS. 31.16.167.91 ( talk) 19:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 17:45, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
There were series of edits on the article intro on 20 December 2015, which resulted in a compromise with the intro as:
"Semper fidelis is a Latin phrase that means "always faithful" or "always loyal". In the United States it is best known as the motto of the United States Marine Corps usually shortened to Semper Fi. Elsewhere, it is a common motto for towns, families, schools, and military units."
Notes to those edits are in the edit summaries. There were several modifications to the intro prior to that. The intro was changed again on 25 March 2017. I reverted that change until further discussion here if the intro is to be changed again. Semper Fi! FieldMarine ( talk) 12:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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This page has become very USMC centric. For example in the "lede" the reference to Semper Fidelis being the motto for the UK Devonshire regiment (and subsequently the Devon and Dorsets),has been removed. And for those organisations with more heritage/size than the USMC to be referred to as "other" is a bit dismissive. If the article said "It is the motto of the Devonshire regiment, in various forms since the 17th Century. It is also in use as a motto for towns, families, schools, and other military units" I would expect some members of the USMC to be upset.
In any event, the current phrasing of the lede suggests that the motto is reduced to Semper Fi. That's a USMC thing. I've tried to edit it accordingly, without removing the USMC from the headline (because I genuinely don't want to offend those faithful to their corps) - but have clearly stirred a hornet's nest. My suggestion was:
"It is the motto of numerous military units, towns, schools, and families, including Lviv and the United States Marine Corps, where it is usually shortened to Semper Fi."
I'm sorry for having made the change without realising the existence/mechanic of this talk board. So apologies for breaking protocol. But hopefully the suggestion is well received.
Nickmason1973 ( talk) 10:15, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
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Was semper fidelis restored as the motto of todays L'viv?
The motto of the Spanish Tercios was always "Semper Fidelis" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.240.3 ( talk) 21:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Who are the Devonshire regiment? All it says is that they're known as the 11th... 205.174.22.28 02:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Common on the arms of cities; see Hamburg, for instance ( http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/senat/service/wappen/start.html). Thus not coincidence, because the castle represents a city. Often the crest above civic arms is a mural crown (looks like wall with battlements).
Spanish-speaking countries are very fond of civic appellations as "Muy Noble y Muy Leal," generally given by a sovreign in appreciation of loyalty in times of civil strife. Alfonxo X praised Seville as loyal: "No me han dejado" ("they did not abandon me") and so the civic arms show skein of yarn (madeja; it looks like an elongated figure 8) between the words "No Do," making a rebus of the king's praise.
This page has been re-ordered several times, I suspect with enthusiasts for each of the owners of the motto wanting to put "their" organisation first. Could I plead that we adopt some consistent policy, and that it be ordering by date of acquisition, which is at least objective? However I can quite see that enthusiasts for the US Marines might not like their Corps being buried under historic cities, so I have put in some headings to force up a Table of Contents in the hope of keeping everyone reasonably happy.
seglea 20:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
How is "Semper Fi" pronounced? Should be "Fi" as in "Hi-Fi", right? Because I heard a lot of "Fi"s as in "Five".
The "Fi" in "Hi-Fi" sounds the same as "Fi" in "Five".
It's pronounced fi as in fish!
Every time I've heard it pronounced it has been the same as "Fi" in "Five". However for that matter I've never heard anyone prononuce "Fi" from "Hi-Fi" as in "Fish"! Understandably it's an abbrevation of Fidelity but I'm yet to come across anyone who doesn't pronounce the pair Hi and Fi to match! -- 77.102.144.218 ( talk) 03:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Semper Fidelis is a latin term meaning always(semper) faithful(fidelis), and the correct pronunciation is "Fi" like "Fee", but the marine corp and other military organizations say it "Fie" way due to habit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.171.31 ( talk) 21:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I doubt that one could say that there is a correct pronunciation of the Latin. Those of us who were taught classical Latin at school were told to pronounce words like "fidelis" with a short i, as in fish. But (a) we can't really say with much confidence how the Romans pronounced them and (b) once you abbreviate the word, it's almost impossible to pronounce "fi" like that anyway. As far as I know, from the end of the Roman empire, the pronunciation of Latin diverged in different countries - drastically in the vernacular, giving rise to Italian, Spanish etc - but to some extent even in Church and learned circles. "Semper fidelis" as a motto is medieval not classical Latin, and by the middle ages time people were probably pronouncing it however was easiest given their native languages. So if the Marines want to pronounce it "Semper Fie", I would say good luck to them: they are almost certainly following in the footsteps of the people who first used it as a motto. Just so long as they don't forget that we in Exeter were using it first! seglea ( talk) 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The semper fidelis(.mp3) link doesn't work.
The story that the motto was granted by Elizabeth I to Exeter, though widely reported (e.g. on the Exeter City Council web page) is proving hard to source. The letter reported in the story is not in the city archives, according to the Devon Record Office who hold them. Exeter's arms were granted in 1547 and the formal description of the grant doesn't include the motto; and John Hooker's map of Exeter of 1587 ( found here) clearly shows the arms without the motto. It would be good to document this one. seglea 01:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The following statement from the article seemed a bit POV:
I believe the statement would be better worded:
This wording conveys the same information but does not shed biased towards the USMC. I'm a huge fan of the Marines, but I think saying they "inherently" have dedication is a bit much. Saying most or all marines do might be okay if well worded, but Marines do not "inherently" have dedication. -- Matthew 00:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a slight bug: "...Per Terram" is the motto of the Royal Marines. Really. So
is actually not making a lot of sense. Are we saying the two Marines swapped mottoes? And do we mean the period 1805ish to 1843 was "...Tripoli" ? It's needlessly complicated at the minute. I can understand adopting the Tripoli one immediately after the Barbary War, but adopting it and then a decade later adopting the motto of an enemy victor (who themselves had only adopted it in the 1780's) seems flighty at best.
Since we've only got two dates and three mottoes, was there competition, unofficial adoption or what? The only other way to make sense of this seems to be to accept "Fortitudine" as some kind of homage to the RM motto. Which is confusing a whole other way. 172.143.144.156 22:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The phrase "Semper Fi" was also used (allbeit just once) by John Dalton in the video-game Unreal2
I though Semper Fi meant Forever Faithful, or is my Latin wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.71.152 ( talk) 03:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The correct translation is actually "Always faithful", since the latin for "forever" is not "semper" but, more likely, "in perpetuum". Tommaso Leso —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.37.202.244 ( talk) 23:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
The family histories are interesting, but only need briefly mentioned as this this an article on Semper fi, not those families. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
They also have semper fidelis as the motto. Mallerd ( talk) 21:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
It seems that, over a period of time, this article has become a bit of a random list of families, places, and organizations; most without citations. Semper fidelis seems to be a popular motto. Not every group that has it as its motto should be included in this article. I propose that there should be some basic criteria to decide whether an entry should be included.
Here are some ideas:
— ERcheck ( talk) 21:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Some time ago we removed all the sports clubs from this page on the grounds that they were clutter. Another one has just appeared, posted by an anon; I have removed it but paste it in here in case we want to reinstate that section. Note that the club is apparently notable as defined above as there is a link to a page, but so were the other clubs we booted out.
Semper Fidelis is the motto of BLUE PRIDE, a fanclub of the most beloved Bulgarian football club
seglea ( talk) 20:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else in favour of cutting out the entire - and growing - trivia section? seglea ( talk) 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Rocmc.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --13:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This link does not goto the USMC history of seals. Possibly needs to be cut. -- 173.88.157.204 ( talk) 17:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
An anon had added Ffrench to the list of families using Semper fidelis as a motto. I have removed it as it is not documented by Burke, who gives their motto as Malo mori quam foedari or Mors potius macula. If you wish to reinsert this please provide a source. seglea ( talk) 20:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that "Semper Fidelis" (the march by Sousa) should have its own entry apart from this one? I suspect it would stand on its own well enough; I'd be inclined to create it myself unless anyone strenuously disagrees. Blandoon ( talk) 18:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
An anon had removed the last few edits for no obvious reason. I have restored them, but in so doing may have removed some more recent valid edits - apologies if so. seglea ( talk) 23:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I looked up "Semper Fi" (for about the umpteenth time) when hearing or reading it (for about the umpteenth time) in Amercan films or books.
Not being from an Anglo_Saxon or _Latin_ culture, it keeps confusing me.
Being proud of my country and of the deeds of my elders, I find it impossible to understand or condone the "derogatory usage"?
Is anybody interested in explaining it to me? And to others keen on reading, watchin, and understanding? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.156.41.149 ( talk) 20:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
An anon had added Scanlon to the list of families using the motto. That may well be accurate, but that part of the articles starts out, "B. Burke (1884, p. 1180) lists the following..." and Scanlon is not in Burke's list. We could add a list of families not listed by Burke, but we would need evidence of their use. seglea ( talk) 13:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC).
Similarly Snowden seglea ( talk) 09:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
this is although used by the german army's medic corps, could add this anybody in proper english? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.211.56 ( talk) 02:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Could you please add the now disbanded Devon and Dorset Regiment of the British Army who also proudly have Semper Fidelis as their moto and on their cap badge.
Thanks
Mike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.231.55 ( talk) 10:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I would like to see some information on when this abbreviation became prevalent. I find it difficult to believe that this abbreviation was in common use in the 19th century, for instance. Thank you in advance! (Unregistered user, June 19, 2015) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.113.59 ( talk) 10:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Is "Semper paratus" a response to this? Saw this on NCIS. 31.16.167.91 ( talk) 19:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 17:45, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
There were series of edits on the article intro on 20 December 2015, which resulted in a compromise with the intro as:
"Semper fidelis is a Latin phrase that means "always faithful" or "always loyal". In the United States it is best known as the motto of the United States Marine Corps usually shortened to Semper Fi. Elsewhere, it is a common motto for towns, families, schools, and military units."
Notes to those edits are in the edit summaries. There were several modifications to the intro prior to that. The intro was changed again on 25 March 2017. I reverted that change until further discussion here if the intro is to be changed again. Semper Fi! FieldMarine ( talk) 12:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
This page has become very USMC centric. For example in the "lede" the reference to Semper Fidelis being the motto for the UK Devonshire regiment (and subsequently the Devon and Dorsets),has been removed. And for those organisations with more heritage/size than the USMC to be referred to as "other" is a bit dismissive. If the article said "It is the motto of the Devonshire regiment, in various forms since the 17th Century. It is also in use as a motto for towns, families, schools, and other military units" I would expect some members of the USMC to be upset.
In any event, the current phrasing of the lede suggests that the motto is reduced to Semper Fi. That's a USMC thing. I've tried to edit it accordingly, without removing the USMC from the headline (because I genuinely don't want to offend those faithful to their corps) - but have clearly stirred a hornet's nest. My suggestion was:
"It is the motto of numerous military units, towns, schools, and families, including Lviv and the United States Marine Corps, where it is usually shortened to Semper Fi."
I'm sorry for having made the change without realising the existence/mechanic of this talk board. So apologies for breaking protocol. But hopefully the suggestion is well received.
Nickmason1973 ( talk) 10:15, 7 April 2022 (UTC)