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Including a Gaelic translation of Selkirk is simply misleading to readers, because it suggests a cultural connection where absolutely none exists. It makes no more sense to include a Gaelic translation in this info box than it would to include a Cornish translation on the Newcastle upon Tyne page, or a Basque translation on the Madrid page. Indeed, if all Scottish articles automatically include a Gaelic section in the info box then the Scottish info box should itself be changed, because, again, it suggests that the language was far more universal than was ever the case (something I am sure the Gaelic culture lobby are happy to promote, but that doesn't make it true).
I lived in Selkirk for over 30 years and in all that time I do not recall even hearing Gaelic mentioned, let alone used, such is its irrelevance in Lowland Scotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Koolbreez ( talk • contribs)
Firstly, is there any need for such aggression?
Secondly, can someone who feels so unnecessarily slighted by respectful disagreement really claim to be looking at the question altogether impartially?
"Ilk" indeed.
Koolbreez 15:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ahhh. I see now that I have stumbled into a fight that has been going on since long before I arrived. That explains, even if it does not excuse, sairach's obnoxious defensiveness.
I'll straight back bow out and let you children play then, since it certainly seems to matter a whole lot more to some of you than it matters to me.
Another victory for zealotry over agnosticism then. Ho hum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.93.16 ( talk • contribs)
Hmm, not sure if this article is NPOV Jamandell (d69) 00:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
no one in the south speaks gaelic keep it off this page!
can we provide a source(s) for the Gaelic name(s) here on the Talk page, in accordance with WP:CITE? -- Mais oui! 21:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
dear all, the point i am trying to put across is that throughout history the Gaelic language has never been spoken in the vast majority of the Borders. Though a user has said there is a Gaelic name for Selkirk, the point I have attempted to make that as this is not a native tongue of the town it surly should not be included on the wikipedia article. I will draw your attention to other local towns that have no Gaelic names. Perhaps in Gaelic there is a name for these settlements, but the manner in which they are being included I strongly feel is not justified. Do the users in question wish to place the Gaelic name on the articles about all cities? I’m sure there must be a Gaelic name for London, Paris or even Rome, but it is inappropriate to add Gaelic names to these places as Gaelic has never been spoken there just like it has never been spoken in the Borders and with reference to this article Selkirk.
As references to my argument I quote the books, Border Fury: England and Scotland at War, 1296-1568, Sadler, John. Publisher: Longman
The Thistle and the Rose: Six Centuries of Love and Hate Between the Scots and the English, Massie, Allan Publisher: John Murray User:retro_junkies 01:07, 29 March 2006
In Search of Scotland H. V. Morton
Thanks for taking the time to actully read the discussion Fagstein, there was a token debate about the infobox and if it should contain gaelic, but when i placed the latin name (either rightly or wrongly) into the box the page was bombarded by users demanding the gaelic name was there. i have also tried to point out that while they may have a gaelic word for this town, there still exsits no names for towns such as Hawick, Galashiels or Kelso and all other Border towns (with the exception of one) User:retro_junkies 23:07, 29 March 2006
First of all this issue was decided by open vote and debate and this childish crusade of yours and refusal to accept the consensus of the Scottish wikipedians community is really very silly and the discussion irrelevant and simply an example of your refusal to accept any opinion beyond your own. Secondly, your argument "Do the users in question wish to place the Gaelic name on the articles about all cities? " Is so irredeemably stupid that i really shouldnt even bother acknowledging it but what the hell i will. Not all cities are part of Scotland - Hence no, not all cities will necessarily have a Scottish/Gaelic name but to assume/accuse others of intending to provide Gaelic names for completely non-Scottish cities/areas is of course an absolutely logical assumption/conclusion ;). Incidently Hawick and Kelso are Hamhaig/Cealsach respectively in Gaelic(as youd have discovered if youd conducted...oh about 30 seconds of research rather than assuming what you would like to be the case is) while Galashiels is to my knowledge a rare exception in Scotland in not having a pre-English name but i would not be at all surprised if i were proved wrong on that. An Siarach
you are absoulty making these up ive never heard such tosh in my life, where are your sources?
oh its a website that looks like it was made by a college student, well thats trustworthy!
im glad the users who keep adding gaelic were mature enough to listen to the moderator that i requested have a look at this page and "meditate" i will be taking this to the highest possible level in order to have gaelic kept off these pages
User:retro_junkies
hello, i really have no idea what is going on here, but to me it seems there are two sides two this arguement, first User:retro_junkies who seems very anti-Gaelic, infact he seems to have a thing about being anti-Gaelic. am i right in saying that this user wants the Gaelic part of the infobox because he belives Gaelic has no place in these pages because it is not historically important to this area? and then we have a whole group of people, the pro-Gaelic crew, Calgacus and Mais oui! to name a few, and would i be correct in saying that they wish the Gaelic on the page because names for these towns exsist in Gaelic? Byerswerks 30 March 00:18 (UTC)
It seems to me though that User:retro_junkies has a point, very few people if any speak or understand Gaelic in these areas, so it seems quite misleading to have the Gaelic names on there town names, giving the impression that this is considered the norm. Byerswerks 03 April 16:34 (UTC)
Really, shouldn't the translated name of a place, where it is not spoken in that town/city/country, only appear on a different language Wikipedia? For example, Munich does not appear anywhere on the German Wikipedia, it appears as München, because quite rightly, people in Munich don't converse with fellow Munichers in English, they use German. Just because they may know English doesn't make it relevat... see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muenchen . If we follow the same priciples, Gaelic names should only exist in towns where Gaelic is a primary language. It is not a primary language in the South of Scotland, for example, BBC Radio nan Gaidheal does not broadcast South of Central and Highland Scotland. Therefore, in Selkirk's case, along with other lowland towns, Gaelic place names should be confined to the Gaelic-language version of Wikipedia (at http://gd.wikipedia.org).
My main problem is with the undue prominence given to Gaelic in the infobox, Scots is more widely spoken in the lowlands. If you were to visit Selkirk adn use the Gaelic word, no one would have a clue what you were on about. I feel that it should be clearer that this is not a term used in common language to identify Selkirk.
...pointlessly forever regarding the Gaelic name can i suggest people have a read of the article itself. It is of a pretty poor standard! Thanks/ wangi 20:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Is the Selkirk Grace linked to Selkirk the town or the Selkirk Arms hotel in Kircudbright, where it was written?
It is so called becasue it was delivered by Burns at a banquet given by the Earl of selkirk Lurker talk 14:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid Siarach is misinformed. There are Gaelic placenames in South-east Scotland, but very few (see Nicolaisen). Little Gaelic would have been spoken here, because before the Angles arrived - and for a long time after - the language spoken here was Cumbric, the northern dialect of old Welsh. the evidence for this is in place names, Abbey records, and much else besides. For a brief time in the centuries before written records begin, it appears from the place names that a few Gaelic-speakers seem to have been moving in from the west, perhaps as overlords, but by the twelfth century that seems to have been over. Brian Holton (formerly of Halliwell's House Museum, Selkirk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:CTbah ( talk • contribs)
Auchencrow is a small village in the Scottish Borders by the Lammermuir range of hills. Its name comes from the Scottish Gaelic Achadh na Craoibhe meaning "Field of the Treis". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auchencrow
"During the short activity of the Irish Church from Iona in Northumberland (635-664), the monastery of Melrose was founded by Aedan of Lindisfarne, and the mixed monastery of Coldingham in the time of his successor Fínán. The superiors of these monasteries were Angles, and whatever Irish character they may have had disappeared after 664. Nevertheless, to the influence of Iona must be due the commemorations of Baithene, Columba's successor, in St. Bathans or St. Bothans, the old name of the parish of Yester, 'ecelesia collegiata de Bothanis,' 1448 (RMS), etc., and in Abbey St. Bathans, 'ecelesia sancti Boythani,' 1250. Patrick MacGylboythin of Dumfries signed the Ragman Roll in 1296; his father's name means 'servant, or lad of St. Baithene.' Kilbucho in Peebles is Kilbevhoc, c. 1200 (Chart. MeIr.) Kylbeuhoc, c. 1200 (Reg. Glas.); Kelbechoc, 1214/49, ib. Kylbocho in Boiamund; Kilbochok, 1376 (Chart. Mort.) Kilbouchow, 1475 (Chart. Hol.). The saint commemorated here is Begha, probably the nun called Begu by Bede, who lived in the time of Aedan of Lindisfarne and of Hilda. She is not mentioned by Irish writers so far as I know, but the termination -oc in her name is the affectionate diminutive common in names of Irish saints ; her connection was with the Church of Northumberland. Gillebechistoun or Killebeccocestun, c. 1200 (Chart. MeIr.) in Eddleston parish, Peebles, means ' the toun of St. Begha's servant '; 'toun' is doubtless for an earlier baile. 'St. Bais wall' (well) at Dunbar, on record in 1603 (RMS) may commemorate 'the very mythical Irish saint Bega, whose name is preserved in St. Bees.'" Plummer's Bede, vol. fi. p. 248; i. p. 431. http://www.spns.org.uk/watsloth.html
Gaelic was spoken by at least one of the Northumbrian Kings under the influence of Iona on the development of Lindesfarne. English history does not cancel out any Gaelic influence on a region in other words.
Under Righ (Medieval Gaelic: Alaxandair mac Alaxandair (Alexander III, born in nearby Rosbrog/Roxburgh) Scottis/Gaelic would still have been an important language in Bearaig/Abaraig, and along with Inglis/English/Early Scots and possibly French and Low German (the language of the Hanse traders throughout the North Sea and East Coast of Britain), spoken and understood by the local inhabitants. Berwick: Auchencraw is Aldenecraw, 1333 (Bain's Cal.), apparently Gaelic but rather doubtful as to meaning. Aldcambus, in Cockburnspath, now Old Cambus on the Ordnance Survey Map, is Aldcambus, c.,1100 (Lawrie); Aldecambus, 1126, ib.; Aldcambhouse, 1298 (Ragman Roll); Auld Cammos, 1601 (RMS); Old Cammes (Macfarlane). 'Cambus' is doubtless G. camas, old G. cambas, a bend in a river, a bay; Aldcambus is an old parish name, and the ruins of St. Helen's Church there are close to a small bay. The traditional explanation of 'ald' as 'old' is probably right, as in Oldhamstocks, Aldehamstoe, 1127 (Lawrie), the name [139] of the parish adjacent to Cockburnspath on the north. Blanerne is probably bail an fhearna, 'alder stead.' Bogangreen may be for bog an g(h)riain 'gravel bog,' i.e. resting on gravel or near gravel. Bondriech is 'foot of hill face' (drech, dreach). Boon seems to be simply bun, 'bottom, foot.' Cowdenknowes is Coldenknollis, 1559 (Lib. Melr.); Coldunknowes and Coldin- in Blaeu ; here 'Cowden' stands for colltuinn, calltuinn, hazel, as it usually does in Scots; the name is a hybrid, meaning 'hazel knolls.' Dron Hill is dronn, a hump ; compare Dron, a hill in Longforgan parish, Perth; also the name Dumfries. Knock, for cnoc, small hill, occurs in Duns and in Gordon. The Long Latch in Coldingham is 'the long boggy rivulet.' Longformacus, Langeford Makhous, c. 1340 (Johnston), is 'Maccus' longphort,' i.e. encampment or hut, dwelling. Longskelly Rocks, off the coast, contains sgeilig, a reef, as in Sgeilig Mhícheil, 'Michael's reef,' off the coast of Kerry; long may be English or it may be G. long, ship. Poldrait was the name of a croft at Lauder 'between the Kirkmyre and the land called Gibsonisland,' 1501 (RMS); compare 'the land in Hadingtoun called Sanct Androisland in Poildraught' (Ret.); the first part is poll, a pool. or hollow; the second part is probably drochaid, a bridge, causeway, as in Frendraught, Ferendracht in Reg. Arbr., 'bridge land,' Aberdeenshire. Powskein, on a tributary of Cor Water, Tweedhead, is for poll sgine, 'knife pool' ; compare Inber Scéne, 'estuary of the knife,' the old name of the mouth of the Kenmarc River in Ireland, from its resemblance to a knife slash; also Loch Skene, Dunskine. Ross Point, Ayton, is ros, a cape, promontory. http://www.spns.org.uk/watsloth.html#Berwick
In other words, Gaelic was spoken at least by some of the population in Siorrachd Bhearag/Berwickshire (of which Bearaig a Deas/Berwick upon Tweed, was the county town.)
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/p.l.younger/documents/TheGaelicFoundationsoftheGoldenAgeofNorthumbria.pdf
92.235.167.172 ( talk) 11:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Scots should predominate in the naming of the article for all the reasons given by Mr Holton. However the recent little edit war over which box to use is a bit silly. The one which has no reference to linguistic differences, is dangerously close to being politically biased in its reference to Sovereignty. Last time I'd heard sovereignty rested wwith the will of the people of Scotland to be enacted by the Monarch and his/her government rather than the political entity formed after the act of Union 1707. In accordance with the naming of the Kings of Scots from Alexander III backwards I'd suggest having the common English name followed by the Scots followed by the Gaelic in areas where English and Scots names predominate, and vice versa where they do not. Seems easy enough? Brendandh 23:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
just like to have the opportunity to state that deleting Scottish Gaelic names from articles on Scottish towns is the real act of vandalism and claiming the opposite is pretty desperate.
92.235.167.172 (
talk)
15:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm glad you judge books by its cover and ignore the fact that the Stòr-dàta is a lexicographical resource compiled by Scotland's main Gaelic HEI on the basis of its rather simplistic design.
Just where do you take the knowledge/justification from to claim any place in the borders never had a Gaelic name? And that aside, what does it matter if the root is Goidelic or English? Thousands of place names across Scotland are clearly Goidelic in origin, yet we mysteriously have English forms. Are you the one to decide that Gaelic may never develop its own form of a place name based on an English root?? And, since you're such a place names expert, may I remind you that a lack of recorded place names does not mean a language never existed. East Anglia isn't exactly packed with Brythonic place names, yet we know from the historical record that Brythonic languages were dominant there for centuries. So the fact that many place names in the borders are English on the face of ot may simply be down to the fact that underlying Celtic names never were recorded. It may come as a surprise to you, but English did not originate in Britain.
And yes, the numbers of Gaelic speakers are small. So? I was simply pointing out the fact you're making sweeping statement with NO factual evidence to back up your claims at any level. I have yet to see you quote a SINGLE source. Akerbeltz ( talk) 09:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Fortunately there can be wider consensus on such questions that go beyond individual pages. And besides, you're just pushing your own agenda, you have not sought to seek consensus anywhere. Akerbeltz ( talk) 22:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Agree with above, but with exception to "Saxon". The kingdom of Northumbria, of which Selkirk was part, was Anglian. Saxons were the ancestors of the west country and the home counties of England, Mercia and Northumbria and East Anglia were settled by families from Angeln not Sachsen. Brendandh ( talk) 23:56, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Dvd, can you for once back up something you say with evidence? According to you, no Gaelic speaker knows it or uses it. Unfortunately "DvdScott sez so" is not a reliable source. According to you, Gaelic has no relevance on anything Borders related. Unfortunately "DvdScott sez so" is not a reliable source. According to you, Salcraig was made up by "some Gaelic translator" and has "no historical evidence" behing it. Unfortunately "DvdScott sez so" is not a reliable source. The Stòr-dàta, however you may hate its design thus far beats anything you claim so why exactly should Maunus, I or anyone spend time arguing this point? For all we know this could just be a windup to see how long you can keep us going with a pointless discussion. Akerbeltz ( talk) 02:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The Stòr-dàta, incidentally, DOES cite its sources if. Just select the Faic tùsan options. It shows the source of Salcraig to be Mac an Tàilleir. It does not cite any specific document by him for Salcraig but then Mac an Tàilleir does provide unpublished material to certain institutions on request AFAIK. Beyond that, I'm with Maunus. Stop wasting our time. Akerbeltz ( talk) 10:27, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading this page has got my blood boiling, in this educated and changing time for scotland we still have to listen to the anti-gaighlig pro-english brigade!
As a teri and a borderer myself i appreciate the differences between the borders region and the rest of the country and also its interesting to note that the same sort of debate has occurred in other areas of the country and there is only one eventual outcome. People are becoming more educated than before and are not willing to listen to the usual pro-english drivel that is spouted on here. Incidentally most names in the borders are of of p -celtic origin but the imbicile who suggested it was a SAXON region needs to check again, a scant 200 year period of definite northumbrian rule does not make that so, also most linguistic studies suggest a norse place name rather than an anglo-saxon one in a large number of placenames in the borders.
As a great deal of scots are not too far removed from gaelic speaking ancestry, i have family who are native speakers, i can only hope people like the ones commenting against it here are in the minority, actually i know that to be the case. Suas leis a ghaidlig! —Preceding
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If "The town's name means "church in the forest"" how can this derive "from the Old English sele ("hall" or "manor") and cirice ("church")". Mutt Lunker ( talk) 13:22, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Exactly. This is fatuous. Ptolemy recorded the people here as Selgovae 500 years before anyone "English" speaking got a look in. I plan to excise the relevant part of the enty. Freuchie ( talk) 16:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Elsewhere on wikipedia its says Ruth Davidson grew up in Selkirk. Perhaps add her to list of notable people. [ [3]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.155.194.182 ( talk) 18:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
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Including a Gaelic translation of Selkirk is simply misleading to readers, because it suggests a cultural connection where absolutely none exists. It makes no more sense to include a Gaelic translation in this info box than it would to include a Cornish translation on the Newcastle upon Tyne page, or a Basque translation on the Madrid page. Indeed, if all Scottish articles automatically include a Gaelic section in the info box then the Scottish info box should itself be changed, because, again, it suggests that the language was far more universal than was ever the case (something I am sure the Gaelic culture lobby are happy to promote, but that doesn't make it true).
I lived in Selkirk for over 30 years and in all that time I do not recall even hearing Gaelic mentioned, let alone used, such is its irrelevance in Lowland Scotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Koolbreez ( talk • contribs)
Firstly, is there any need for such aggression?
Secondly, can someone who feels so unnecessarily slighted by respectful disagreement really claim to be looking at the question altogether impartially?
"Ilk" indeed.
Koolbreez 15:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ahhh. I see now that I have stumbled into a fight that has been going on since long before I arrived. That explains, even if it does not excuse, sairach's obnoxious defensiveness.
I'll straight back bow out and let you children play then, since it certainly seems to matter a whole lot more to some of you than it matters to me.
Another victory for zealotry over agnosticism then. Ho hum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.93.16 ( talk • contribs)
Hmm, not sure if this article is NPOV Jamandell (d69) 00:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
no one in the south speaks gaelic keep it off this page!
can we provide a source(s) for the Gaelic name(s) here on the Talk page, in accordance with WP:CITE? -- Mais oui! 21:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
dear all, the point i am trying to put across is that throughout history the Gaelic language has never been spoken in the vast majority of the Borders. Though a user has said there is a Gaelic name for Selkirk, the point I have attempted to make that as this is not a native tongue of the town it surly should not be included on the wikipedia article. I will draw your attention to other local towns that have no Gaelic names. Perhaps in Gaelic there is a name for these settlements, but the manner in which they are being included I strongly feel is not justified. Do the users in question wish to place the Gaelic name on the articles about all cities? I’m sure there must be a Gaelic name for London, Paris or even Rome, but it is inappropriate to add Gaelic names to these places as Gaelic has never been spoken there just like it has never been spoken in the Borders and with reference to this article Selkirk.
As references to my argument I quote the books, Border Fury: England and Scotland at War, 1296-1568, Sadler, John. Publisher: Longman
The Thistle and the Rose: Six Centuries of Love and Hate Between the Scots and the English, Massie, Allan Publisher: John Murray User:retro_junkies 01:07, 29 March 2006
In Search of Scotland H. V. Morton
Thanks for taking the time to actully read the discussion Fagstein, there was a token debate about the infobox and if it should contain gaelic, but when i placed the latin name (either rightly or wrongly) into the box the page was bombarded by users demanding the gaelic name was there. i have also tried to point out that while they may have a gaelic word for this town, there still exsits no names for towns such as Hawick, Galashiels or Kelso and all other Border towns (with the exception of one) User:retro_junkies 23:07, 29 March 2006
First of all this issue was decided by open vote and debate and this childish crusade of yours and refusal to accept the consensus of the Scottish wikipedians community is really very silly and the discussion irrelevant and simply an example of your refusal to accept any opinion beyond your own. Secondly, your argument "Do the users in question wish to place the Gaelic name on the articles about all cities? " Is so irredeemably stupid that i really shouldnt even bother acknowledging it but what the hell i will. Not all cities are part of Scotland - Hence no, not all cities will necessarily have a Scottish/Gaelic name but to assume/accuse others of intending to provide Gaelic names for completely non-Scottish cities/areas is of course an absolutely logical assumption/conclusion ;). Incidently Hawick and Kelso are Hamhaig/Cealsach respectively in Gaelic(as youd have discovered if youd conducted...oh about 30 seconds of research rather than assuming what you would like to be the case is) while Galashiels is to my knowledge a rare exception in Scotland in not having a pre-English name but i would not be at all surprised if i were proved wrong on that. An Siarach
you are absoulty making these up ive never heard such tosh in my life, where are your sources?
oh its a website that looks like it was made by a college student, well thats trustworthy!
im glad the users who keep adding gaelic were mature enough to listen to the moderator that i requested have a look at this page and "meditate" i will be taking this to the highest possible level in order to have gaelic kept off these pages
User:retro_junkies
hello, i really have no idea what is going on here, but to me it seems there are two sides two this arguement, first User:retro_junkies who seems very anti-Gaelic, infact he seems to have a thing about being anti-Gaelic. am i right in saying that this user wants the Gaelic part of the infobox because he belives Gaelic has no place in these pages because it is not historically important to this area? and then we have a whole group of people, the pro-Gaelic crew, Calgacus and Mais oui! to name a few, and would i be correct in saying that they wish the Gaelic on the page because names for these towns exsist in Gaelic? Byerswerks 30 March 00:18 (UTC)
It seems to me though that User:retro_junkies has a point, very few people if any speak or understand Gaelic in these areas, so it seems quite misleading to have the Gaelic names on there town names, giving the impression that this is considered the norm. Byerswerks 03 April 16:34 (UTC)
Really, shouldn't the translated name of a place, where it is not spoken in that town/city/country, only appear on a different language Wikipedia? For example, Munich does not appear anywhere on the German Wikipedia, it appears as München, because quite rightly, people in Munich don't converse with fellow Munichers in English, they use German. Just because they may know English doesn't make it relevat... see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muenchen . If we follow the same priciples, Gaelic names should only exist in towns where Gaelic is a primary language. It is not a primary language in the South of Scotland, for example, BBC Radio nan Gaidheal does not broadcast South of Central and Highland Scotland. Therefore, in Selkirk's case, along with other lowland towns, Gaelic place names should be confined to the Gaelic-language version of Wikipedia (at http://gd.wikipedia.org).
My main problem is with the undue prominence given to Gaelic in the infobox, Scots is more widely spoken in the lowlands. If you were to visit Selkirk adn use the Gaelic word, no one would have a clue what you were on about. I feel that it should be clearer that this is not a term used in common language to identify Selkirk.
...pointlessly forever regarding the Gaelic name can i suggest people have a read of the article itself. It is of a pretty poor standard! Thanks/ wangi 20:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Is the Selkirk Grace linked to Selkirk the town or the Selkirk Arms hotel in Kircudbright, where it was written?
It is so called becasue it was delivered by Burns at a banquet given by the Earl of selkirk Lurker talk 14:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid Siarach is misinformed. There are Gaelic placenames in South-east Scotland, but very few (see Nicolaisen). Little Gaelic would have been spoken here, because before the Angles arrived - and for a long time after - the language spoken here was Cumbric, the northern dialect of old Welsh. the evidence for this is in place names, Abbey records, and much else besides. For a brief time in the centuries before written records begin, it appears from the place names that a few Gaelic-speakers seem to have been moving in from the west, perhaps as overlords, but by the twelfth century that seems to have been over. Brian Holton (formerly of Halliwell's House Museum, Selkirk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:CTbah ( talk • contribs)
Auchencrow is a small village in the Scottish Borders by the Lammermuir range of hills. Its name comes from the Scottish Gaelic Achadh na Craoibhe meaning "Field of the Treis". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auchencrow
"During the short activity of the Irish Church from Iona in Northumberland (635-664), the monastery of Melrose was founded by Aedan of Lindisfarne, and the mixed monastery of Coldingham in the time of his successor Fínán. The superiors of these monasteries were Angles, and whatever Irish character they may have had disappeared after 664. Nevertheless, to the influence of Iona must be due the commemorations of Baithene, Columba's successor, in St. Bathans or St. Bothans, the old name of the parish of Yester, 'ecelesia collegiata de Bothanis,' 1448 (RMS), etc., and in Abbey St. Bathans, 'ecelesia sancti Boythani,' 1250. Patrick MacGylboythin of Dumfries signed the Ragman Roll in 1296; his father's name means 'servant, or lad of St. Baithene.' Kilbucho in Peebles is Kilbevhoc, c. 1200 (Chart. MeIr.) Kylbeuhoc, c. 1200 (Reg. Glas.); Kelbechoc, 1214/49, ib. Kylbocho in Boiamund; Kilbochok, 1376 (Chart. Mort.) Kilbouchow, 1475 (Chart. Hol.). The saint commemorated here is Begha, probably the nun called Begu by Bede, who lived in the time of Aedan of Lindisfarne and of Hilda. She is not mentioned by Irish writers so far as I know, but the termination -oc in her name is the affectionate diminutive common in names of Irish saints ; her connection was with the Church of Northumberland. Gillebechistoun or Killebeccocestun, c. 1200 (Chart. MeIr.) in Eddleston parish, Peebles, means ' the toun of St. Begha's servant '; 'toun' is doubtless for an earlier baile. 'St. Bais wall' (well) at Dunbar, on record in 1603 (RMS) may commemorate 'the very mythical Irish saint Bega, whose name is preserved in St. Bees.'" Plummer's Bede, vol. fi. p. 248; i. p. 431. http://www.spns.org.uk/watsloth.html
Gaelic was spoken by at least one of the Northumbrian Kings under the influence of Iona on the development of Lindesfarne. English history does not cancel out any Gaelic influence on a region in other words.
Under Righ (Medieval Gaelic: Alaxandair mac Alaxandair (Alexander III, born in nearby Rosbrog/Roxburgh) Scottis/Gaelic would still have been an important language in Bearaig/Abaraig, and along with Inglis/English/Early Scots and possibly French and Low German (the language of the Hanse traders throughout the North Sea and East Coast of Britain), spoken and understood by the local inhabitants. Berwick: Auchencraw is Aldenecraw, 1333 (Bain's Cal.), apparently Gaelic but rather doubtful as to meaning. Aldcambus, in Cockburnspath, now Old Cambus on the Ordnance Survey Map, is Aldcambus, c.,1100 (Lawrie); Aldecambus, 1126, ib.; Aldcambhouse, 1298 (Ragman Roll); Auld Cammos, 1601 (RMS); Old Cammes (Macfarlane). 'Cambus' is doubtless G. camas, old G. cambas, a bend in a river, a bay; Aldcambus is an old parish name, and the ruins of St. Helen's Church there are close to a small bay. The traditional explanation of 'ald' as 'old' is probably right, as in Oldhamstocks, Aldehamstoe, 1127 (Lawrie), the name [139] of the parish adjacent to Cockburnspath on the north. Blanerne is probably bail an fhearna, 'alder stead.' Bogangreen may be for bog an g(h)riain 'gravel bog,' i.e. resting on gravel or near gravel. Bondriech is 'foot of hill face' (drech, dreach). Boon seems to be simply bun, 'bottom, foot.' Cowdenknowes is Coldenknollis, 1559 (Lib. Melr.); Coldunknowes and Coldin- in Blaeu ; here 'Cowden' stands for colltuinn, calltuinn, hazel, as it usually does in Scots; the name is a hybrid, meaning 'hazel knolls.' Dron Hill is dronn, a hump ; compare Dron, a hill in Longforgan parish, Perth; also the name Dumfries. Knock, for cnoc, small hill, occurs in Duns and in Gordon. The Long Latch in Coldingham is 'the long boggy rivulet.' Longformacus, Langeford Makhous, c. 1340 (Johnston), is 'Maccus' longphort,' i.e. encampment or hut, dwelling. Longskelly Rocks, off the coast, contains sgeilig, a reef, as in Sgeilig Mhícheil, 'Michael's reef,' off the coast of Kerry; long may be English or it may be G. long, ship. Poldrait was the name of a croft at Lauder 'between the Kirkmyre and the land called Gibsonisland,' 1501 (RMS); compare 'the land in Hadingtoun called Sanct Androisland in Poildraught' (Ret.); the first part is poll, a pool. or hollow; the second part is probably drochaid, a bridge, causeway, as in Frendraught, Ferendracht in Reg. Arbr., 'bridge land,' Aberdeenshire. Powskein, on a tributary of Cor Water, Tweedhead, is for poll sgine, 'knife pool' ; compare Inber Scéne, 'estuary of the knife,' the old name of the mouth of the Kenmarc River in Ireland, from its resemblance to a knife slash; also Loch Skene, Dunskine. Ross Point, Ayton, is ros, a cape, promontory. http://www.spns.org.uk/watsloth.html#Berwick
In other words, Gaelic was spoken at least by some of the population in Siorrachd Bhearag/Berwickshire (of which Bearaig a Deas/Berwick upon Tweed, was the county town.)
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/p.l.younger/documents/TheGaelicFoundationsoftheGoldenAgeofNorthumbria.pdf
92.235.167.172 ( talk) 11:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Scots should predominate in the naming of the article for all the reasons given by Mr Holton. However the recent little edit war over which box to use is a bit silly. The one which has no reference to linguistic differences, is dangerously close to being politically biased in its reference to Sovereignty. Last time I'd heard sovereignty rested wwith the will of the people of Scotland to be enacted by the Monarch and his/her government rather than the political entity formed after the act of Union 1707. In accordance with the naming of the Kings of Scots from Alexander III backwards I'd suggest having the common English name followed by the Scots followed by the Gaelic in areas where English and Scots names predominate, and vice versa where they do not. Seems easy enough? Brendandh 23:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
just like to have the opportunity to state that deleting Scottish Gaelic names from articles on Scottish towns is the real act of vandalism and claiming the opposite is pretty desperate.
92.235.167.172 (
talk)
15:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm glad you judge books by its cover and ignore the fact that the Stòr-dàta is a lexicographical resource compiled by Scotland's main Gaelic HEI on the basis of its rather simplistic design.
Just where do you take the knowledge/justification from to claim any place in the borders never had a Gaelic name? And that aside, what does it matter if the root is Goidelic or English? Thousands of place names across Scotland are clearly Goidelic in origin, yet we mysteriously have English forms. Are you the one to decide that Gaelic may never develop its own form of a place name based on an English root?? And, since you're such a place names expert, may I remind you that a lack of recorded place names does not mean a language never existed. East Anglia isn't exactly packed with Brythonic place names, yet we know from the historical record that Brythonic languages were dominant there for centuries. So the fact that many place names in the borders are English on the face of ot may simply be down to the fact that underlying Celtic names never were recorded. It may come as a surprise to you, but English did not originate in Britain.
And yes, the numbers of Gaelic speakers are small. So? I was simply pointing out the fact you're making sweeping statement with NO factual evidence to back up your claims at any level. I have yet to see you quote a SINGLE source. Akerbeltz ( talk) 09:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Fortunately there can be wider consensus on such questions that go beyond individual pages. And besides, you're just pushing your own agenda, you have not sought to seek consensus anywhere. Akerbeltz ( talk) 22:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Agree with above, but with exception to "Saxon". The kingdom of Northumbria, of which Selkirk was part, was Anglian. Saxons were the ancestors of the west country and the home counties of England, Mercia and Northumbria and East Anglia were settled by families from Angeln not Sachsen. Brendandh ( talk) 23:56, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Dvd, can you for once back up something you say with evidence? According to you, no Gaelic speaker knows it or uses it. Unfortunately "DvdScott sez so" is not a reliable source. According to you, Gaelic has no relevance on anything Borders related. Unfortunately "DvdScott sez so" is not a reliable source. According to you, Salcraig was made up by "some Gaelic translator" and has "no historical evidence" behing it. Unfortunately "DvdScott sez so" is not a reliable source. The Stòr-dàta, however you may hate its design thus far beats anything you claim so why exactly should Maunus, I or anyone spend time arguing this point? For all we know this could just be a windup to see how long you can keep us going with a pointless discussion. Akerbeltz ( talk) 02:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The Stòr-dàta, incidentally, DOES cite its sources if. Just select the Faic tùsan options. It shows the source of Salcraig to be Mac an Tàilleir. It does not cite any specific document by him for Salcraig but then Mac an Tàilleir does provide unpublished material to certain institutions on request AFAIK. Beyond that, I'm with Maunus. Stop wasting our time. Akerbeltz ( talk) 10:27, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading this page has got my blood boiling, in this educated and changing time for scotland we still have to listen to the anti-gaighlig pro-english brigade!
As a teri and a borderer myself i appreciate the differences between the borders region and the rest of the country and also its interesting to note that the same sort of debate has occurred in other areas of the country and there is only one eventual outcome. People are becoming more educated than before and are not willing to listen to the usual pro-english drivel that is spouted on here. Incidentally most names in the borders are of of p -celtic origin but the imbicile who suggested it was a SAXON region needs to check again, a scant 200 year period of definite northumbrian rule does not make that so, also most linguistic studies suggest a norse place name rather than an anglo-saxon one in a large number of placenames in the borders.
As a great deal of scots are not too far removed from gaelic speaking ancestry, i have family who are native speakers, i can only hope people like the ones commenting against it here are in the minority, actually i know that to be the case. Suas leis a ghaidlig! —Preceding
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If "The town's name means "church in the forest"" how can this derive "from the Old English sele ("hall" or "manor") and cirice ("church")". Mutt Lunker ( talk) 13:22, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Exactly. This is fatuous. Ptolemy recorded the people here as Selgovae 500 years before anyone "English" speaking got a look in. I plan to excise the relevant part of the enty. Freuchie ( talk) 16:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Elsewhere on wikipedia its says Ruth Davidson grew up in Selkirk. Perhaps add her to list of notable people. [ [3]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.155.194.182 ( talk) 18:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)