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I'm troubled that this article takes "self-hating Jew" to be something that accurately describes particular Jews. It's my experience that the phrase is used exclusively as a slur. It is not the Daniel Burros or the Bobby Fischers of the world who are called "self-hating Jews" so much as the Norman Finkelsteins and the Noam Chomskys. The former pair have serious mental or emotional illnesses, and it seems excessive to label these mountainous problems as being instances of a general and widespread condition. These two are clearly anti-semites, but I don't think that the vast majority of Jews who are called "self-hating" belong on the same page as these two, as far as anti-Jewish attitudes or behavior. It is something like giving the Columbine shootings of a few years ago as the main examples of misbehavior in high schools. If "self-hating Jew" is the profound but rare problem that affects Daniel Burros and Bobby Fischer, does it need an encyclopedia article? And if it is something else, then should these two profound extremes be used as the leading examples in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.244.64.84 ( talk • contribs) 05:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
It is a common epithet, and a common phenomenon as well. There are numerous examples in public discourse of Jews turning against their faith or publically denying its relevance. Hence, it needs an article.
I have no idea why you slapped a {{ POV}} tag on the article. This is normally only done if no agreement on the neutrality of the article can be reached on the talk page. Please discuss here first, and then consider adding a tag.
What exactly is your point? That more or less people should be labeled "self-hating Jews"? JFW | T@lk 22:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Listen pal, I'm not here to defend the content but to find out what you actually want. I think the term should be interpreted as "Jewish person attacking Jewish ideals or people out of presumed embarrasment for Jewish identity". I'm not sure if there is anything more to it. It is an epithet, and it has been used numerous times, also in relation to Chomsky and Shahak. Whether the phenomenon exists is a matter of opinon. JFW | T@lk 00:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
If you have to resort to personal attacks to get your point accross I'm not very inclined to hear you out. If you don't like the style of the article, then edit away! If other users are not happy with your version they may change it back. But don't start shouting like this. I respect your opinion but please remain civil. JFW | T@lk 01:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
You have not made any attempt to provide balance in the article. Again, just slapping tags onto it because you don't like it is a poor excuse for NPOV. I have edited the intro, and suggest you work on the remainder. By the way, by taking the tag off I am only following Wikipedia procedure and not "defending the content" in any way. JFW | T@lk 10:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
My personal experience is that I've been called a 'self-hating Jew' by Ashkenaz when I affirm my identity as a Jewish Arab. It happened when I studied Arabic, it happens in Shul when I say that non-European Jews in Israel face racism and it happens when I let people know I have Muslim friends. I find that the term isn't just used to silence dissent in the Jewish community it's also used to erase our histories and experiences.
This may have something to do with the Ashkenaz community associating the experiences of Jewish refugees from Arab countries with the those in Europe before and during World War 2, it's a lack of understanding, that could be fixed with something as simple as conversation and greater participation with the Arab Israeli community. But no matter what social problems exist here, at least we have a way to fix them.
Jayjg's belligerent blind revert (accompanied by a personal attack) left the second paragraph of the "Usage" section using an epithet as though it were a legitimate term. Marsden 04:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I reverted Apeloverage's edits because they're original research, an example of an editor advancing his own arguments to make a case. Instead of "it could be argued that ...," s/he needs to write: "X argues that ..." and link to a reputable source. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Who is Blake Eskin, and why is he an encyclopedic source, particularly on this topic? Is he a linguist or sociologist? Are his views well known and often quoted in this context? Or is he just someone found by googling "Self-loathing Jew" and "Uncle Tom" together? From what I can tell he is a theatre critic. Jayjg (talk) 19:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
There are two debates here. My comments on the first one are personal: I think "Self-hating Jew" is an epithet, because I have never heard anyone self-identify as a self-hating Jew except parodically. This does not mean that there are no Jews who hate their Jewishness — indeed, there are well-documented cases; moreover, ethnic self-hatred is common among people subject to racism ... the classic discussion of this phenomena is Stigma by the sociologist Erving Goffman. I would suggest an article on self-hatred or self-stigmatization that draws on Goffman's work (which I know) as well as other work by psychologists and sociologists (which I do not know, but am sure exists); it can include Jews, Blacks (in this regard Frantz Fanon's work is canonical), and others as examples, and reserve this article for the epithet. This is just my opinion.
The other argument concerns compliance with our NOR policy, and the use of verifiable and well-regarded sources. As far as I am concerned these policies are inviolate. I would defend the addition of any content, even if it conflicts with my own view stated above, if it is properly sourced; I would delete material, even if it represented my own views, if it is not and cannot be properly sourced. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Marsden, the fact that you ask, "would one need a source to note that Jenna Bush is blonde and her sister Barbara is brunette?" tells me that you are not familiar with our NOR policy. It is an official policy and the specifics are all spelled out; it is this policy to which SlimVirgin and I have referred. I urge you to read the policy carefully. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I think it is pretty clear that "the field" in the matter is not just Abu Nidal, but also psychology. We will have to disagree on this matter, but in my opinion the article suffers in quality under your interpretation. Marsden 04:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
This addition by Apeloverage seems a little strong to me -- to my understanding, it is often more a matter of just deciding not to accept/be proud of Jewish culture. Anti-semitism goes beyond this. What do other people think? Marsden 02:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Apeloverage, I have removed this clause and am placing it here on the talk page. In other words, although I have strong doubts that it belongs in the article, I do not simply want to delete it outright.
As you can see, Marsden and I both have qualms about this. I hope that two things will happen. First, I hope that other editors will discuss this and contribute more research on the topic. Second, I hope that if you have not already, you read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. These are two key policies at Wikipedia. Normally, when editors are writing about uncontroversial topics, few or no one questions whether editors are complying with or violating these policies. But when people are working on controversial topics, referring to these policies usually helps people resolve any disputes. For example, although you may think that it is obvious that a self-hating Jew displays evidence of anti-Semitism, you now know that this is not obvious to at least two editors. That being the case, we want to make sure that you are not just adding your own point of view to the article (and violating NPOV). However, if you can provide a verifiable source (I am referring to two other policies you should familiarize yourself with; both are relevant to our "no original research" policy) for this claim, then we can put it back in, and there won't be any questions about it violating any policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The initial sentence (not by me, and not deleted) says a 'self-hating Jew' is "a person of Jewish origin who appears to exhibit a strong shame or hatred of her or his Jewish identity, of other Jews, or of the Jewish religion". If I said "complete the following sentence: Bill appears to exhibit a strong hatred of Jewish identity, of Jews, or of the Jewish religion. In short, Bill is an...", I think most people would answer "anti-Semite". Thus, a 'self-hating Jew' as defined by the first sentence of this article, is a Jewish person who shows evidence of anti-Semitic attitudes. My addition was just a summary of that sentence. --
Apeloverage
22:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I can see an argument for removing my addition AND any elements of the article which make the same assumption about how the term is used. However, I can't see any argument for removing only my addition, on the grounds that it defines the use of the term wrongly, but keeping other elements of the article which make the same assumption. -- Apeloverage 13:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Please list any objections to this phrasing:
"Self-hating Jew is an epithet used for a person of Jewish origin who appears to exhibit a strong shame or hatred of her or his Jewish identity, of other Jews, or of the Jewish religion." [current wording, which no-one has objected to]
" - attitudes which, in a non-Jewish person, would generally be considered anti-Semitic". [my proposed addition, which I believe flows from this current wording] -- Apeloverage 13:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
So, are you saying that you think my addition is wrong, AND the original sentence is wrong?
If so, it could well be said that most of the article is wrong, in that it broadly assumes that there is an established psychological phenomenon of unique Jewish self-hatred, and that it is generally accepted that "Jews who suffer from this psychological condition of self-hatred" is fundamentally the same group as "Jews who are called self-hating Jews" - or at least that they are as close as eg "people who suffer from schitzophrenia" and "people who are diagnosed with schitzophrenia". In fact a lot of people, particularly those who are accused of being self-hating Jews, seem to assert that there is little or no overlap at all, and in fact that the term is mainly used to advance political ideas rather than draw attention to a condition - rather as if the page on insanity discussed Charles Manson and "the loony Left" as two examples of people who are generally accepted to be insane. -- Apeloverage 07:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to hear from people who use the term. If they are literally saying that there is a psychological condition which both Daniel Burros and Noam Chomsky suffer from, then it belongs in the one article (along with the point that Noam Chomsky doesn't think so). If they're using it in the same way that 'gun nut' or 'loony left' is used, then the psychological stuff doesn't belong with the stuff about the political use of the term, and having it on the same page is biased in the same way that having discussion of insanity in an article about socialism or militias would be biased. -- Apeloverage 09:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
My addition, which has been deleted, had two parts:
i) Defining 'Uncle Tom', in a way which no one has disputed.
ii) Saying that Jewish people who use the phrase 'self-hating Jew' also often use the term 'Uncle Tom' for the same thing, and providing two examples of this use.
My contribution did not say that "a self-hating Jew is like a Jewish Uncle Tom", which would be an opinion. It said "Jewish people who use the term 'self-hating Jew' sometimes use 'Uncle Tom' as if it meant the same thing", which is a fact shown by the two references - regardless of what you think of either term, they are in fact used in this way.-- Apeloverage 22:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The only valid arguments I can see against this section are
a) that's not what Uncle Tom means
b) the people you're talking about virtually never use the term in this way, and the two examples here are highly atypical of how the term is used.-- Apeloverage 13:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Apeloverage, I tried to give you useful advice that would help you in making effective edits that others would accept. I did so in good faith, and respectfully. It does not look like you have followed my advice. That is of course your choice, but it was well-intentioned and I really do think it would help you. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Which parts of this proposed section, if any, are you saying are factually inaccurate, or not supported by the references? And if none, what's your objection to the section?
My impression of the comments accompanying this section being removed, were that they misinterpreted what I was trying to do. They seemed to be saying "Your references don't show that Uncle Tom is the same as self-hating Jew, they just show that these people use them as if they were the same; also, the references weren't academics, they were just examples of colloquial use; for your assertion to have any weight, you need an academic reference, and it needs to show that the two things really are the same, not just be an example of people loosely using two phrases as if they meant the same thing".
In other words, they were treating it as if I'd made an assertion of objective fact: for example, if I'd said "Clint Eastwood is Jewish", and tried to justify it with a reference to someone on livejournal saying "I heard Clint Eastwood was Jewish".
But my assertion wasn't an assertion of fact, it was an assertion about how language is used colloquially: this particular set of people sometimes use this particular phrase as if it was more or less synonymous with this particular phrase.
If I edited the 'Communism' page to the effect that "people use 'communism' to mean the system that prevailed in the former Soviet Union", I'm sure that someone would object to it on the grounds that "that's not what communism means, and here's an encyclopedic definition of communism compared with a list of the features of the Soviet Union, proving that they're not the same". I think this would miss the point in much the same way. And indeed I suspect that it may miss the point for much the same reasons ie people think they have a certain 'ownership' of the concept. -- Apeloverage 06:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Apeloverage, which encyclopedic sources link "Self-hating Jew" with "Uncle Tom"? You are promoting the novel thesis that "Self-hating Jew" and "Uncle Tom" are synonyms - this is forbidden by the original research policy of Wikipedia. Please find some encyclopedic sources making this claim, or desist from adding it to the article. Jayjg (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not promoting the thesis that 'Uncle Tom' and 'self-hating Jew' are synonyms: in fact they're obviously not - for example because 'Uncle Tom' has implications of hiding your intelligence, and because 'Uncle Tom' implies pretending to be more different from white people than you really are, whereas 'self-hating Jew' implies pretending to be more similar to gentiles than you really are. I'm making the observation that some Jewish people (not all, not most, just 'some'; ie more than zero) use the word 'Uncle Tom', when applied to Jewish people, as if they were synonyms. In terms of the original meaning of the words, 'oreo' would be a better synonym, and if I was in fact advancing a thesis, that would be the thesis I would advance.
If I was to say, for example, "John Smith wrote on his website that Korn rocks", I don't think you would say that I was advancing the thesis that Korn rocks. I think that you would accept a link to John Smith's website as sufficient to verify this observation. On the same basis, since "some Jewish people" clearly means "a number of Jewish people which is more than one", more than one quote should be sufficient to show that 'some Jewish people' do indeed use the phrase in this way, regardless of whether it's a 'good' or 'correct' use or not.
If there were a number of Sylvia Plath fan-sites which asserted that "Sylvia Plath was the first punk", I'm betting it would be acceptable to use those sites as references for the statement that "many Sylvia Plath fans have described her as the first punk", but not to use them for the statement that "Sylvia Plath was the first punk"; the first is a description of what people have said, the second is an assertion about reality, and needs some kind of expert opinion to back it up. My point about 'Uncle Tom' is about use of the words, not about their 'real' meaning.
I requesting that you tell me what phrasing would be acceptable to you, to express the point that some Jewish people have used the phrase in this way. I'm assuming you're not going to deny that some Jewish people have in fact done so. If you either don't answer or don't believe that there is any acceptable way in which this observation can be made in this article, I am requesting mediation with you on this issue.
I am also requesting that you restore the section 'Synonymous Terms', and some form of the observation that 'self-loathing Jew' is used synonymously, which you have deleted without providing reasons. If you don't, I am also requesting mediation on this.-- Apeloverage 05:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm happy with your change which has added the reference to 'Uncle Tom'; although I don't 100% see the difference between my wording and yours, I don't think it's worth keeping a debate going. -- Apeloverage 02:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
In addition, if you're going to make claims like "it is frequently used in political debates relating to Israel" or "There is a large amount of controversy over to what extent, if any, cases such as Daniel Burros represent the same phenomenon as other Jewish people who are accused of being self-hating.", you'll really have to provide encyclopedic sources which back up these claims. Anything else is simply violating multiple Wikipedia policies. Jayjg (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I can't quite figure out what this sentence is asserting: As well as debates relating to the extent to which Jewish people should maintain distinctive cultural or relgious practices, it is used in political debates relating to Israel. Could someone parse this for me? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 05:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I have re-added this tag.
The debate around this phrase seems to revolve around whether there is a single phenomenon which includes obvious 'nutters' like Daniel Burros, and Jewish people who are seen as anti-Israel.
masada.org and the like assert that yes, there is a strong link; critics of Israel have Stockholm Syndrome, identify with their abusers, feel shame and self-loathing...in short, are acting out psychological problems and are not holding a rational position any more than Daniel Burros was. Liberals assert that no, there is no link, it's just used as a way of writing someone off, and 'self-hating Jew' is no more a real psychological diagnosis than 'gun nut' or 'loony leftie'.
If the phenomenon isn't real, then there is still a 'psychological basis' for the accusation; one which lies in the accusers rather than the accused.
Therefore, in my opinion, if this section was unbiased it would give space to the theory that the accusation reflects the needs of the people who make it - I'm sure there is some material out there on, for example, group identities and how people who base themselves strongly on this identity can be more threatened by dissent inside the group than outside.
Since it only gives space to the assertion that the phenomenon is real (and implicitly that the accusation is made because it's accurate), I think it can be seen as not neutral.
-- Apeloverage 07:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Good, but my comments on the section still stand. -- Apeloverage 12:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
-- OneTopJob6 03:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I have also changed the first sentence, so that it no longer says that the epithet describes someone who is ashamed of their Jewish identity etc, but carries the implication that they are. I think there's debate on a) whether it is an accurate description, and b) whether the people who use it mean it literally.
is there a request for comment on this article? if so i'd be willing to share my point of view.-- Urthogie 15:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Liftarn, we've been through this all before. Hatred means hatred, not criticism - the claim is that they hate the various things listed. Jayjg (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
If you think Jayjg is wrong, please cite a source that uses self hating jew in the context you suggest. Until then, please dont present such a POV on the page.-- Urthogie 22:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
We have been over this once already [4] and it's obvious that Jayjg wants it handed down on stone tablets by a deity of his choise. Nothing else will do. Sources have been given from newspapers ( The Boston Globe, "Zionism and the ‘self-hating Jew’" by Mick Finlay, New York Times, The Independent, The Jewish Chronicle awarded Gilad Atzmon the "self-hating Jew of the week" award for criticising Israel [5], The Guardian), books ( Pity the Nation, Worlds of Hurt, Chomsky: Ideas and Ideals and many more [6]) and several other sources [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] // Liftarn
Most of your links have the phrase, but not in the context youre suggesting. Please reply with a link that has it in your context...better yet, paste some text you think proves your argument(not all of us can read pdf on library computers)-- Urthogie 15:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately those are secondary sources, so they may be true, or may not be. Could you actually quote a notable right winger using it this way? (The ariel sharon quote would work if you could find it, from a primary source)-- Urthogie 21:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Allow me to clarify. I was saying that the source about ariel sharon is ABOUT ariel sharon, but is not a hard quote of him using self-hating jew in reference to those who are against aspects of israel or zionism. so you could you provide a primary source, of him saying that directly, like not an editorial about him, but actually a quote by him. thanks much, for being cooperative.-- Urthogie 18:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it undeniably says "Ariel Sharon" in the space for who wrote the op-piece. // Liftarn
There are two problems 1) it costs $3.95 per article to get the full text and 2) posting it on Wikipedia would be a copyvio. // Liftarn
Well then its not a usable one. What other primary sources do you posess of right-wingers?-- Urthogie 15:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
As the first hand source is not available, we would have to use the second hand source. Or simply use one of the many other sources stated above(for instance "Unwilling to be considered traitors and no longer sure that Jewishness is worth preserving if it means the Jewishness of [Ariel Sharon], we have joined together because we are not willing to allow our culture and religion to lose its prophetic message of generosity, compassion and open-heartedness. ("Thou shalt love the stranger.") No surprise that we have been greeted by some Jews with their favorite mantra: You are self-hating Jews.")
"But, I think Finlay's paper could be used as a primary source. Acadmic papers are usable, right? There are ofcourse many other sources, for instance in the book Sixties Radicals, Then and Now[19] Thomas Friedman was called a "self-hating Jew" on Israeli army radio."
"Or some primary source at http://www.zoa.org/oped/oped20050919a.htm where Jerome S. Kaufman (National Secretary of the Zionist Organization of America) calles Thomas Friedman (New York Times), Ms. Oz-Salzberger (Wall Street Journal) and Leon Wieseltier (The New Republic) "self-hating Jews" because they support the ide of "land for peace"."
"Also conductor Daniel Barenboim have been called "self-hating Jew" several times because he refused to be interviewed by an Israel Army Radio reporter in uniform.[21][22][23] On some cases it seem it's enough to promote peace and suggest a two-state sollution to be branded a "self-hating Jew"."
In the http://www.zoa.org/oped/oped20050919a.htm article they are clearly called "self-hating Jew" not because Thomas Friedman calls for the destuction of Israel, but because he think the Gaza whitdrawal was a good idea and Jerome S. Kaufman is well aware of this (he writes "Weiseltier is commenting upon the withdrawal from Gaza.").
The first article say "Even Pro Palestinian Jews Are Now Called 'Anti Semitic Jew Haters'". [24]. Ok, it doesn't exactly say "self-hating", but the idea is the same. The second source is indeed a blog, but since it's a primary source to the writer's own opinions it's usable.
For the http://www.israelnewsradio.net/barenboim.html link the content is in the audio. It may not be accessable on some computers (works on my Firefox under Win 2000). Anyway, I think there is a slight difference between conducting classical music and calling for the destruction of Israel, don't you?
And some more links. At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2004_01.html#000244 Bob Simon and the other reporters of 60 Minutes are called "Arch-typical self-hating Jews" by Andrea Levin is (Executive Director of CAMERA) because they did a piece of the wall the writer doesn't agree with.
At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2003_11.html#000210 Jerome S. Kaufman calles Daniel Kurtzer, Tony Lapid, Shimon Peres, Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk, Haim Ramon, Yossi Beilin, Aaron Miller, Michael Melchior "total Left wing self-hating apologetic writers and speakers" May I also remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". [25] and that even extremist groups may be used as primary sources about themselves. [26] // Liftarn
"In the http://www.zoa.org/oped/oped20050919a.htm article they are clearly called "self-hating Jew" not because Thomas Friedman calls for the destuction of Israel, but because he think the Gaza whitdrawal was a good idea and Jerome S. Kaufman is well aware of this (he writes "Weiseltier is commenting upon the withdrawal from Gaza.")."
The first article say "Even Pro Palestinian Jews Are Now Called 'Anti Semitic Jew Haters'". [27]. Ok, it doesn't exactly say "self-hating", but the idea is the same. The second source is indeed a blog, but since it's a primary source to the writer's own opinions it's usable.
And some more links. At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2004_01.html#000244 Bob Simon and the other reporters of 60 Minutes are called "Arch-typical self-hating Jews" by Andrea Levin is (Executive Director of CAMERA) because they did a piece of the wall the writer doesn't agree with.
At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2003_11.html#000210 Jerome S. Kaufman calles Daniel Kurtzer, Tony Lapid, Shimon Peres, Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk, Haim Ramon, Yossi Beilin, Aaron Miller, Michael Melchior "total Left wing self-hating apologetic writers and speakers" May I also remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".[25] and that even extremist groups may be used as primary sources about themselves.[26] // Liftarn
You are incorrectly labelling some sites as blogs (as if the type of site makes a difference), but please see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Evaluating_secondary_sources. // Liftarn
I disagree with that it is a "very controversial edit". There is plenty of evidence for it, both from primary and secondary sources. If it helps it may be phrased in another way, for instance "In the British Journal of Social Psychology paper Zionism and the ‘self-hating Jew’ by Mick Finlay writes "It should be no surprise, then, to find the notion of Jewish self-hatred frequently used in current debate over Israeli policy. /../ The logic of this argument is as follows: Zionism is a core value of Jewish identity. Criticism of Israel is, therefore, anti-Semitism. Jewish criticism of Israel must then be the result of the internalization of anti-Semitism."" Then it doesn't state it directly, but is a statement about a statement. Correction: I noticed the Finlay article have been published [28] so I've added it. I hope an academic paper published in a peer-reviewed journal is good enough. // Liftarn
OK, good idea lets work on wording. First off, its considered not very stylish to include sources mid sentance most the time. The following allows us to use your secondary sources, in effect, as primary sources:
Writers and political activists who have been critical of Israel report being called "self-hating jews" because of their political beliefs.
And we'd source it with footnotes. How's that?-- Urthogie 16:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
That would work too. Something like
Sounds good? // Liftarn
We'll go with that then. The problem with yours, liftarn, is that the motives are disputed, not the parts about being called self hating jews.-- Urthogie 19:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Your POV is "Self-hating Jew" is a correct analysis of somebody, my POV is "Self-hating Jew" merely a slur. (Nobody ever called himself of herself "Self-hating Jew".) But even if it is the correct analysis, we have no right to judge, if somebody is or is not a "Self-hating Jew". We can only report that somebody considers other person a "Self-hating Jew".
Masada2000 is not an encyclopedic source, I agree. But the fact is that they call Baruch Kimmerling a "Self-hating Jew". -- Vít Zvánovec 09:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but this is an article about "Self-hating Jews". In the article about red necks, there would be very useful to have Public Enemy's statement. Masada2000 represents small, but influent, part of Israeli public life. It is important to know who they consider a "Self-hating Jew". Otherwise Wikipedia hides the fact that Mr Kimmerling was offended and by whom. -- Vít Zvánovec 15:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
You are correct in your view that Wikipedia cannot reflect views of not important individuals. But Masada 2000 seems to me to be be a site of people connected with JDL and Kahane chai and similar groups. How do you know it is a work of one individual? -- Vít Zvánovec 09:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
22,200 Google hits is not enough? -- Vít Zvánovec 15:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Urthogie gets more than 10,000 [30]. Nice little comparison. By the way I'm a 16 year old kid with relatively new opinions. Perhaps we should quote my blog, on the basis that I have almost half that number of hits?-- Urthogie 15:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, you persuaded me. -- Vít Zvánovec 16:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
M. Savage's name was added to the list. Please see the previous section: unless a proof is provided, he's out. ← Humus sapiens ну? 03:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added Tony Kushner to the list, his statements about Israel and Judaism more than qualify him. 63.205.151.68 18:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I've deleted Sigmund Freud from the list of self hating jews, a reading of the source does not begin to put him in the class of those who actively speak against Jews and Israel
Self-hating is never without links to social pressure.Plus Jews themself are mixing ethnicity and political views in one term.Anti-judaism or anti-zionism are distinct from anti-semitism and each other. usually these who are critical(but not hating) of their own culture are much more progressive and open-minded,so criticism of "self-hating" apllies only to people who deeply hate themself based on their previcious allegiance to religion or political beliefs (such as zionism,and common perception of: Jew equals Zionist).Jewish anti-patriotism is really what they hint at(social pressure or conformism in cultural identity).
likes it's popularity. I thought we were beyond Jew Hating for sport as a people. I guess some people still get a kick out of it in spite of what happened at Auschwitz. This page shouldn't even exist, it is purely POV and has NO business in an Encyclopedia, but maybe there is room for it in the Tabloids. GNaw they wouldn't dare.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruce1333 ( talk • contribs) 17:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
If you can read script that is, but maybe it's just poor editing on your part.
Bruce1333 ( talk) 02:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It's still POV any way you wanna look at it, and has NO place in an encyclopedia.
Bruce1333 ( talk) 02:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be the equivelant of a subject on "Muslims and Ragheads" but I don't see that as useful information either, and an insult.
Bruce1333 ( talk) 03:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Cheers..
Bruce1333 ( talk) 05:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
"Even Theodor Herzl was described as being a self-hating Jew for an article he wrote entitled ‘Mauschel’ (Kike), which severely criticized a section of the Jewish community for, among other things, being ‘unspeakably mean and repellent’ (Herzl, 1897, cited in Elon, 1975, p251-2). His critic was Karl Kraus, who has himself been branded a self-hating Jew (Gilman, 1986; Le Rider, 1993; Robertson, 1985" [31] Homey 05:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The British Journal of Social Psychology is fringe? Homey 05:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
What about Professor Albert S. Lindemann of the University of California?
If you're going to say "see talk" in your edit note you should actually put a response, in talk, to Professor Lindemann's statement: Herzl himself came close to the position of blaming the victim; at least insofar as he considered the defects of Jews in Europe to be the most fundamental reason that they were hated by non-Jews. Herzl is not an easy man to pin down, but a number of scholars have arrived at the paradoxical conclusion that this founder of modern Zionism might be considered a "self-hating Jew." His admiration of the Gentile world -- his fondest dream was to be reborn as a Prussian Junker -- was remarkable, whereas his comments in his diary about many of the Jews he met and worked with were often caustic, even cruel and ugly. No less remarkable was Herzl's apparent lack of hatred for Gentiles, even the anti-Semites among them. The Jewish state he hoped to create was to be liberal-democratic, having few if any connections with Jewish tradition (about which, at any rate, he was not particularly well informed). Again, in a book so massively detailed and one in which Herzl might be described as the hero, Vital devotes curiously little attention to these glaring paradoxes and mostly ignores the recent secondary works that have brought them up. [33] Homey 05:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Source three: Preeminent Zionist Theodor Herzl was a self-hating Jew. As a correspondent in Paris he wrote, "I took a look at the Paris Jews and saw a family likeness in their faces: bold, misshapen noses; furtive and cunning eyes." He also wrote that anti-Semites were "fully within their rights."
Herzl believed that gentiles would realize a Jewish state was in their own interests; it would help them get rid of Jews. (Benjamin Harshav [34]) Homey 05:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
So, SV, will you do the intellectually honest thing and restore Herzl to the list of those accused of being "self-hating Jews"? If not, why not? Homey 05:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
If you're going to go to the trouble of moving a direct question from your talk page to this page you might as well also provide an answer. Given the credible citations given for Herzl will you now restore him to the list. If not, why not. It's completely unacceptable for your to continue reverting without justification. I'm quite disappointed by your behaviour. Homey 06:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think, humus sapiens, you fundamentally misunderstand the list. It is *not* a list of self-hating Jews, it's a list of people accused of being self-hating Jews and Herzl has been so accused, rightly or wrongly. A list of "self-hating Jews" would be completely subjective and inappropriate and if editors are under the misapprehension that this is the purpose of the list it may be better to remove it altogether. As for "fringe positions", again, we are not determining whether individuals are self-hating Jews but whether the accusation has been made. I am quite surprised the Professor Lindemann would be dismissed as "fringe" nevertheless, it doesn't matter whether he is or not. What matters is whether he has made the accusation and whether it's been disseminated in a mainstream source. I'm sure the people at the University of Oxford would be surprised to learn that one of their inistitutes is considered to be a "fringe" source by wikipedia. Homey 03:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I want to throw another wrench into the question of applying SHJ to particular individuals as a kind of objective diagnosis. As has been said above, the term is used almost exclusively as a political epithet, with the putative psychological issues off in the background. This is borne out by the examples. A google test for "Noam Chomsky" with "Self-Hating Jew" gets 10,100 hits. A test for "Bobby Fischer" gets only 81, and a test for "Dan Burros" gets only 4 hits, all of them mirrors of this article. In other words, without a source, this is WP:OR issue as well as a POV issue. This page cannot be the only place alleging that Burros was a self-hating Jew. Ethan Mitchell 19:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
How can someone be a 'former Jew'? Can he/she change his/her DNA? -- Vladko 05:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The epithet "self-hating Jew" is obviously disparaging. It appears that one of its uses is to brand and label certain views and attitudes as sick. So, if a Jew criticises some aspect of Jewish life and culture, an easy way to deflect the criticism is to accuse that person of being self-hating. That is, the epithet is being used to pressure individuals to conform to certain social, religious or political norms. Has this point been made by others? Michael Glass 12:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
In order for such talk to gain traction I think specifics are called for. You hypothesize about "a Jew criticizes some aspect of Jewish life and culture," without sufficient specificity. What criticism? About what aspect? Such generalizations can lead to wildly varying conclusions, I think. Bus stop 13:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Good point. Here's an example, taken from the article:
It seems that both parties disparaged each other, and 'self-hating Jew' was one of the epithets of choice in this struggle. Michael Glass 13:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
An editor has claimed that the phrase "Self-hating Jew" is "intended to insult Jews" and "used mainly by other Jews,", citing W. M. L. Finlay, "Pathologizing Dissent: Identity Politics, Zionism and the 'Self-Hating Jew'", British Journal of Social Psychology, Vol. 44 No. 2, June 2005, pp. 201-222. Online summary. Could you please quote the specific sentences in which Finlay states the term is "intended to insult Jews" and "used mainly by other Jews"? Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 04:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The term "self-hating Jew" was not originally intended as an insult, but rather as a diagnosis of a pathology. I suspect it is often still used in the same way. Adding "intended to insult Jews" to "epithet" is original research and, if it is actually true (which I doubt it is, at least not as a rule), redundant. Also, just because a source says "self-hate" is commonly used in the Jewish press, that's hardly a proof that it is "used mainly by other Jews". Please remove the original research from the article. Jayjg (talk) 00:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Is Bobby Fischer a self loathing Jew? I read that he used deflamatory language against the Jews in a radio interview in America, you see his mother was a Jew and I'm wondering if these two possiblities tie in, also are there ANY EXAMPLES OF SELF-HATING JEWS? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.13.122.220 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
I insist that this article be deleted or, at the very list be merged with the general self-hatred article.
There is absolutely no reason why so-called Jewish self-hatred be singuled out from all the other nationalities or races. This, in itself, strikes me as offensive (and that has nothing to do with the, admittedly subjective (and I would argue somewhat biased) nature of the article's content).
I could have just as well created an article on Belgian (picked completely at random) self-hatred and believe me I could ha ve come up with pages worth of factual support.
This BELONGS in the general self-hatred article both based on length and content and no reason why it should be singled out. This contributes nothing but actual hatred. Seriosly, this is making things too easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.153.200 ( talk • contribs) 23:27, May 31, 2007
CheskiChips ( talk) 11:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)I'm not sure of an article writing of a non-unified Israeli population is good for either our psyches. And it's surely not good fadder for enemies...but that's an emotionally driven comment.
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I'm troubled that this article takes "self-hating Jew" to be something that accurately describes particular Jews. It's my experience that the phrase is used exclusively as a slur. It is not the Daniel Burros or the Bobby Fischers of the world who are called "self-hating Jews" so much as the Norman Finkelsteins and the Noam Chomskys. The former pair have serious mental or emotional illnesses, and it seems excessive to label these mountainous problems as being instances of a general and widespread condition. These two are clearly anti-semites, but I don't think that the vast majority of Jews who are called "self-hating" belong on the same page as these two, as far as anti-Jewish attitudes or behavior. It is something like giving the Columbine shootings of a few years ago as the main examples of misbehavior in high schools. If "self-hating Jew" is the profound but rare problem that affects Daniel Burros and Bobby Fischer, does it need an encyclopedia article? And if it is something else, then should these two profound extremes be used as the leading examples in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.244.64.84 ( talk • contribs) 05:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
It is a common epithet, and a common phenomenon as well. There are numerous examples in public discourse of Jews turning against their faith or publically denying its relevance. Hence, it needs an article.
I have no idea why you slapped a {{ POV}} tag on the article. This is normally only done if no agreement on the neutrality of the article can be reached on the talk page. Please discuss here first, and then consider adding a tag.
What exactly is your point? That more or less people should be labeled "self-hating Jews"? JFW | T@lk 22:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Listen pal, I'm not here to defend the content but to find out what you actually want. I think the term should be interpreted as "Jewish person attacking Jewish ideals or people out of presumed embarrasment for Jewish identity". I'm not sure if there is anything more to it. It is an epithet, and it has been used numerous times, also in relation to Chomsky and Shahak. Whether the phenomenon exists is a matter of opinon. JFW | T@lk 00:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
If you have to resort to personal attacks to get your point accross I'm not very inclined to hear you out. If you don't like the style of the article, then edit away! If other users are not happy with your version they may change it back. But don't start shouting like this. I respect your opinion but please remain civil. JFW | T@lk 01:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
You have not made any attempt to provide balance in the article. Again, just slapping tags onto it because you don't like it is a poor excuse for NPOV. I have edited the intro, and suggest you work on the remainder. By the way, by taking the tag off I am only following Wikipedia procedure and not "defending the content" in any way. JFW | T@lk 10:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
My personal experience is that I've been called a 'self-hating Jew' by Ashkenaz when I affirm my identity as a Jewish Arab. It happened when I studied Arabic, it happens in Shul when I say that non-European Jews in Israel face racism and it happens when I let people know I have Muslim friends. I find that the term isn't just used to silence dissent in the Jewish community it's also used to erase our histories and experiences.
This may have something to do with the Ashkenaz community associating the experiences of Jewish refugees from Arab countries with the those in Europe before and during World War 2, it's a lack of understanding, that could be fixed with something as simple as conversation and greater participation with the Arab Israeli community. But no matter what social problems exist here, at least we have a way to fix them.
Jayjg's belligerent blind revert (accompanied by a personal attack) left the second paragraph of the "Usage" section using an epithet as though it were a legitimate term. Marsden 04:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I reverted Apeloverage's edits because they're original research, an example of an editor advancing his own arguments to make a case. Instead of "it could be argued that ...," s/he needs to write: "X argues that ..." and link to a reputable source. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Who is Blake Eskin, and why is he an encyclopedic source, particularly on this topic? Is he a linguist or sociologist? Are his views well known and often quoted in this context? Or is he just someone found by googling "Self-loathing Jew" and "Uncle Tom" together? From what I can tell he is a theatre critic. Jayjg (talk) 19:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
There are two debates here. My comments on the first one are personal: I think "Self-hating Jew" is an epithet, because I have never heard anyone self-identify as a self-hating Jew except parodically. This does not mean that there are no Jews who hate their Jewishness — indeed, there are well-documented cases; moreover, ethnic self-hatred is common among people subject to racism ... the classic discussion of this phenomena is Stigma by the sociologist Erving Goffman. I would suggest an article on self-hatred or self-stigmatization that draws on Goffman's work (which I know) as well as other work by psychologists and sociologists (which I do not know, but am sure exists); it can include Jews, Blacks (in this regard Frantz Fanon's work is canonical), and others as examples, and reserve this article for the epithet. This is just my opinion.
The other argument concerns compliance with our NOR policy, and the use of verifiable and well-regarded sources. As far as I am concerned these policies are inviolate. I would defend the addition of any content, even if it conflicts with my own view stated above, if it is properly sourced; I would delete material, even if it represented my own views, if it is not and cannot be properly sourced. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Marsden, the fact that you ask, "would one need a source to note that Jenna Bush is blonde and her sister Barbara is brunette?" tells me that you are not familiar with our NOR policy. It is an official policy and the specifics are all spelled out; it is this policy to which SlimVirgin and I have referred. I urge you to read the policy carefully. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I think it is pretty clear that "the field" in the matter is not just Abu Nidal, but also psychology. We will have to disagree on this matter, but in my opinion the article suffers in quality under your interpretation. Marsden 04:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
This addition by Apeloverage seems a little strong to me -- to my understanding, it is often more a matter of just deciding not to accept/be proud of Jewish culture. Anti-semitism goes beyond this. What do other people think? Marsden 02:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Apeloverage, I have removed this clause and am placing it here on the talk page. In other words, although I have strong doubts that it belongs in the article, I do not simply want to delete it outright.
As you can see, Marsden and I both have qualms about this. I hope that two things will happen. First, I hope that other editors will discuss this and contribute more research on the topic. Second, I hope that if you have not already, you read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. These are two key policies at Wikipedia. Normally, when editors are writing about uncontroversial topics, few or no one questions whether editors are complying with or violating these policies. But when people are working on controversial topics, referring to these policies usually helps people resolve any disputes. For example, although you may think that it is obvious that a self-hating Jew displays evidence of anti-Semitism, you now know that this is not obvious to at least two editors. That being the case, we want to make sure that you are not just adding your own point of view to the article (and violating NPOV). However, if you can provide a verifiable source (I am referring to two other policies you should familiarize yourself with; both are relevant to our "no original research" policy) for this claim, then we can put it back in, and there won't be any questions about it violating any policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The initial sentence (not by me, and not deleted) says a 'self-hating Jew' is "a person of Jewish origin who appears to exhibit a strong shame or hatred of her or his Jewish identity, of other Jews, or of the Jewish religion". If I said "complete the following sentence: Bill appears to exhibit a strong hatred of Jewish identity, of Jews, or of the Jewish religion. In short, Bill is an...", I think most people would answer "anti-Semite". Thus, a 'self-hating Jew' as defined by the first sentence of this article, is a Jewish person who shows evidence of anti-Semitic attitudes. My addition was just a summary of that sentence. --
Apeloverage
22:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I can see an argument for removing my addition AND any elements of the article which make the same assumption about how the term is used. However, I can't see any argument for removing only my addition, on the grounds that it defines the use of the term wrongly, but keeping other elements of the article which make the same assumption. -- Apeloverage 13:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Please list any objections to this phrasing:
"Self-hating Jew is an epithet used for a person of Jewish origin who appears to exhibit a strong shame or hatred of her or his Jewish identity, of other Jews, or of the Jewish religion." [current wording, which no-one has objected to]
" - attitudes which, in a non-Jewish person, would generally be considered anti-Semitic". [my proposed addition, which I believe flows from this current wording] -- Apeloverage 13:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
So, are you saying that you think my addition is wrong, AND the original sentence is wrong?
If so, it could well be said that most of the article is wrong, in that it broadly assumes that there is an established psychological phenomenon of unique Jewish self-hatred, and that it is generally accepted that "Jews who suffer from this psychological condition of self-hatred" is fundamentally the same group as "Jews who are called self-hating Jews" - or at least that they are as close as eg "people who suffer from schitzophrenia" and "people who are diagnosed with schitzophrenia". In fact a lot of people, particularly those who are accused of being self-hating Jews, seem to assert that there is little or no overlap at all, and in fact that the term is mainly used to advance political ideas rather than draw attention to a condition - rather as if the page on insanity discussed Charles Manson and "the loony Left" as two examples of people who are generally accepted to be insane. -- Apeloverage 07:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to hear from people who use the term. If they are literally saying that there is a psychological condition which both Daniel Burros and Noam Chomsky suffer from, then it belongs in the one article (along with the point that Noam Chomsky doesn't think so). If they're using it in the same way that 'gun nut' or 'loony left' is used, then the psychological stuff doesn't belong with the stuff about the political use of the term, and having it on the same page is biased in the same way that having discussion of insanity in an article about socialism or militias would be biased. -- Apeloverage 09:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
My addition, which has been deleted, had two parts:
i) Defining 'Uncle Tom', in a way which no one has disputed.
ii) Saying that Jewish people who use the phrase 'self-hating Jew' also often use the term 'Uncle Tom' for the same thing, and providing two examples of this use.
My contribution did not say that "a self-hating Jew is like a Jewish Uncle Tom", which would be an opinion. It said "Jewish people who use the term 'self-hating Jew' sometimes use 'Uncle Tom' as if it meant the same thing", which is a fact shown by the two references - regardless of what you think of either term, they are in fact used in this way.-- Apeloverage 22:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The only valid arguments I can see against this section are
a) that's not what Uncle Tom means
b) the people you're talking about virtually never use the term in this way, and the two examples here are highly atypical of how the term is used.-- Apeloverage 13:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Apeloverage, I tried to give you useful advice that would help you in making effective edits that others would accept. I did so in good faith, and respectfully. It does not look like you have followed my advice. That is of course your choice, but it was well-intentioned and I really do think it would help you. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Which parts of this proposed section, if any, are you saying are factually inaccurate, or not supported by the references? And if none, what's your objection to the section?
My impression of the comments accompanying this section being removed, were that they misinterpreted what I was trying to do. They seemed to be saying "Your references don't show that Uncle Tom is the same as self-hating Jew, they just show that these people use them as if they were the same; also, the references weren't academics, they were just examples of colloquial use; for your assertion to have any weight, you need an academic reference, and it needs to show that the two things really are the same, not just be an example of people loosely using two phrases as if they meant the same thing".
In other words, they were treating it as if I'd made an assertion of objective fact: for example, if I'd said "Clint Eastwood is Jewish", and tried to justify it with a reference to someone on livejournal saying "I heard Clint Eastwood was Jewish".
But my assertion wasn't an assertion of fact, it was an assertion about how language is used colloquially: this particular set of people sometimes use this particular phrase as if it was more or less synonymous with this particular phrase.
If I edited the 'Communism' page to the effect that "people use 'communism' to mean the system that prevailed in the former Soviet Union", I'm sure that someone would object to it on the grounds that "that's not what communism means, and here's an encyclopedic definition of communism compared with a list of the features of the Soviet Union, proving that they're not the same". I think this would miss the point in much the same way. And indeed I suspect that it may miss the point for much the same reasons ie people think they have a certain 'ownership' of the concept. -- Apeloverage 06:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Apeloverage, which encyclopedic sources link "Self-hating Jew" with "Uncle Tom"? You are promoting the novel thesis that "Self-hating Jew" and "Uncle Tom" are synonyms - this is forbidden by the original research policy of Wikipedia. Please find some encyclopedic sources making this claim, or desist from adding it to the article. Jayjg (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not promoting the thesis that 'Uncle Tom' and 'self-hating Jew' are synonyms: in fact they're obviously not - for example because 'Uncle Tom' has implications of hiding your intelligence, and because 'Uncle Tom' implies pretending to be more different from white people than you really are, whereas 'self-hating Jew' implies pretending to be more similar to gentiles than you really are. I'm making the observation that some Jewish people (not all, not most, just 'some'; ie more than zero) use the word 'Uncle Tom', when applied to Jewish people, as if they were synonyms. In terms of the original meaning of the words, 'oreo' would be a better synonym, and if I was in fact advancing a thesis, that would be the thesis I would advance.
If I was to say, for example, "John Smith wrote on his website that Korn rocks", I don't think you would say that I was advancing the thesis that Korn rocks. I think that you would accept a link to John Smith's website as sufficient to verify this observation. On the same basis, since "some Jewish people" clearly means "a number of Jewish people which is more than one", more than one quote should be sufficient to show that 'some Jewish people' do indeed use the phrase in this way, regardless of whether it's a 'good' or 'correct' use or not.
If there were a number of Sylvia Plath fan-sites which asserted that "Sylvia Plath was the first punk", I'm betting it would be acceptable to use those sites as references for the statement that "many Sylvia Plath fans have described her as the first punk", but not to use them for the statement that "Sylvia Plath was the first punk"; the first is a description of what people have said, the second is an assertion about reality, and needs some kind of expert opinion to back it up. My point about 'Uncle Tom' is about use of the words, not about their 'real' meaning.
I requesting that you tell me what phrasing would be acceptable to you, to express the point that some Jewish people have used the phrase in this way. I'm assuming you're not going to deny that some Jewish people have in fact done so. If you either don't answer or don't believe that there is any acceptable way in which this observation can be made in this article, I am requesting mediation with you on this issue.
I am also requesting that you restore the section 'Synonymous Terms', and some form of the observation that 'self-loathing Jew' is used synonymously, which you have deleted without providing reasons. If you don't, I am also requesting mediation on this.-- Apeloverage 05:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm happy with your change which has added the reference to 'Uncle Tom'; although I don't 100% see the difference between my wording and yours, I don't think it's worth keeping a debate going. -- Apeloverage 02:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
In addition, if you're going to make claims like "it is frequently used in political debates relating to Israel" or "There is a large amount of controversy over to what extent, if any, cases such as Daniel Burros represent the same phenomenon as other Jewish people who are accused of being self-hating.", you'll really have to provide encyclopedic sources which back up these claims. Anything else is simply violating multiple Wikipedia policies. Jayjg (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I can't quite figure out what this sentence is asserting: As well as debates relating to the extent to which Jewish people should maintain distinctive cultural or relgious practices, it is used in political debates relating to Israel. Could someone parse this for me? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 05:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I have re-added this tag.
The debate around this phrase seems to revolve around whether there is a single phenomenon which includes obvious 'nutters' like Daniel Burros, and Jewish people who are seen as anti-Israel.
masada.org and the like assert that yes, there is a strong link; critics of Israel have Stockholm Syndrome, identify with their abusers, feel shame and self-loathing...in short, are acting out psychological problems and are not holding a rational position any more than Daniel Burros was. Liberals assert that no, there is no link, it's just used as a way of writing someone off, and 'self-hating Jew' is no more a real psychological diagnosis than 'gun nut' or 'loony leftie'.
If the phenomenon isn't real, then there is still a 'psychological basis' for the accusation; one which lies in the accusers rather than the accused.
Therefore, in my opinion, if this section was unbiased it would give space to the theory that the accusation reflects the needs of the people who make it - I'm sure there is some material out there on, for example, group identities and how people who base themselves strongly on this identity can be more threatened by dissent inside the group than outside.
Since it only gives space to the assertion that the phenomenon is real (and implicitly that the accusation is made because it's accurate), I think it can be seen as not neutral.
-- Apeloverage 07:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Good, but my comments on the section still stand. -- Apeloverage 12:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
-- OneTopJob6 03:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I have also changed the first sentence, so that it no longer says that the epithet describes someone who is ashamed of their Jewish identity etc, but carries the implication that they are. I think there's debate on a) whether it is an accurate description, and b) whether the people who use it mean it literally.
is there a request for comment on this article? if so i'd be willing to share my point of view.-- Urthogie 15:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Liftarn, we've been through this all before. Hatred means hatred, not criticism - the claim is that they hate the various things listed. Jayjg (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
If you think Jayjg is wrong, please cite a source that uses self hating jew in the context you suggest. Until then, please dont present such a POV on the page.-- Urthogie 22:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
We have been over this once already [4] and it's obvious that Jayjg wants it handed down on stone tablets by a deity of his choise. Nothing else will do. Sources have been given from newspapers ( The Boston Globe, "Zionism and the ‘self-hating Jew’" by Mick Finlay, New York Times, The Independent, The Jewish Chronicle awarded Gilad Atzmon the "self-hating Jew of the week" award for criticising Israel [5], The Guardian), books ( Pity the Nation, Worlds of Hurt, Chomsky: Ideas and Ideals and many more [6]) and several other sources [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] // Liftarn
Most of your links have the phrase, but not in the context youre suggesting. Please reply with a link that has it in your context...better yet, paste some text you think proves your argument(not all of us can read pdf on library computers)-- Urthogie 15:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately those are secondary sources, so they may be true, or may not be. Could you actually quote a notable right winger using it this way? (The ariel sharon quote would work if you could find it, from a primary source)-- Urthogie 21:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Allow me to clarify. I was saying that the source about ariel sharon is ABOUT ariel sharon, but is not a hard quote of him using self-hating jew in reference to those who are against aspects of israel or zionism. so you could you provide a primary source, of him saying that directly, like not an editorial about him, but actually a quote by him. thanks much, for being cooperative.-- Urthogie 18:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it undeniably says "Ariel Sharon" in the space for who wrote the op-piece. // Liftarn
There are two problems 1) it costs $3.95 per article to get the full text and 2) posting it on Wikipedia would be a copyvio. // Liftarn
Well then its not a usable one. What other primary sources do you posess of right-wingers?-- Urthogie 15:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
As the first hand source is not available, we would have to use the second hand source. Or simply use one of the many other sources stated above(for instance "Unwilling to be considered traitors and no longer sure that Jewishness is worth preserving if it means the Jewishness of [Ariel Sharon], we have joined together because we are not willing to allow our culture and religion to lose its prophetic message of generosity, compassion and open-heartedness. ("Thou shalt love the stranger.") No surprise that we have been greeted by some Jews with their favorite mantra: You are self-hating Jews.")
"But, I think Finlay's paper could be used as a primary source. Acadmic papers are usable, right? There are ofcourse many other sources, for instance in the book Sixties Radicals, Then and Now[19] Thomas Friedman was called a "self-hating Jew" on Israeli army radio."
"Or some primary source at http://www.zoa.org/oped/oped20050919a.htm where Jerome S. Kaufman (National Secretary of the Zionist Organization of America) calles Thomas Friedman (New York Times), Ms. Oz-Salzberger (Wall Street Journal) and Leon Wieseltier (The New Republic) "self-hating Jews" because they support the ide of "land for peace"."
"Also conductor Daniel Barenboim have been called "self-hating Jew" several times because he refused to be interviewed by an Israel Army Radio reporter in uniform.[21][22][23] On some cases it seem it's enough to promote peace and suggest a two-state sollution to be branded a "self-hating Jew"."
In the http://www.zoa.org/oped/oped20050919a.htm article they are clearly called "self-hating Jew" not because Thomas Friedman calls for the destuction of Israel, but because he think the Gaza whitdrawal was a good idea and Jerome S. Kaufman is well aware of this (he writes "Weiseltier is commenting upon the withdrawal from Gaza.").
The first article say "Even Pro Palestinian Jews Are Now Called 'Anti Semitic Jew Haters'". [24]. Ok, it doesn't exactly say "self-hating", but the idea is the same. The second source is indeed a blog, but since it's a primary source to the writer's own opinions it's usable.
For the http://www.israelnewsradio.net/barenboim.html link the content is in the audio. It may not be accessable on some computers (works on my Firefox under Win 2000). Anyway, I think there is a slight difference between conducting classical music and calling for the destruction of Israel, don't you?
And some more links. At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2004_01.html#000244 Bob Simon and the other reporters of 60 Minutes are called "Arch-typical self-hating Jews" by Andrea Levin is (Executive Director of CAMERA) because they did a piece of the wall the writer doesn't agree with.
At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2003_11.html#000210 Jerome S. Kaufman calles Daniel Kurtzer, Tony Lapid, Shimon Peres, Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk, Haim Ramon, Yossi Beilin, Aaron Miller, Michael Melchior "total Left wing self-hating apologetic writers and speakers" May I also remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". [25] and that even extremist groups may be used as primary sources about themselves. [26] // Liftarn
"In the http://www.zoa.org/oped/oped20050919a.htm article they are clearly called "self-hating Jew" not because Thomas Friedman calls for the destuction of Israel, but because he think the Gaza whitdrawal was a good idea and Jerome S. Kaufman is well aware of this (he writes "Weiseltier is commenting upon the withdrawal from Gaza.")."
The first article say "Even Pro Palestinian Jews Are Now Called 'Anti Semitic Jew Haters'". [27]. Ok, it doesn't exactly say "self-hating", but the idea is the same. The second source is indeed a blog, but since it's a primary source to the writer's own opinions it's usable.
And some more links. At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2004_01.html#000244 Bob Simon and the other reporters of 60 Minutes are called "Arch-typical self-hating Jews" by Andrea Levin is (Executive Director of CAMERA) because they did a piece of the wall the writer doesn't agree with.
At http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/2003_11.html#000210 Jerome S. Kaufman calles Daniel Kurtzer, Tony Lapid, Shimon Peres, Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk, Haim Ramon, Yossi Beilin, Aaron Miller, Michael Melchior "total Left wing self-hating apologetic writers and speakers" May I also remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".[25] and that even extremist groups may be used as primary sources about themselves.[26] // Liftarn
You are incorrectly labelling some sites as blogs (as if the type of site makes a difference), but please see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Evaluating_secondary_sources. // Liftarn
I disagree with that it is a "very controversial edit". There is plenty of evidence for it, both from primary and secondary sources. If it helps it may be phrased in another way, for instance "In the British Journal of Social Psychology paper Zionism and the ‘self-hating Jew’ by Mick Finlay writes "It should be no surprise, then, to find the notion of Jewish self-hatred frequently used in current debate over Israeli policy. /../ The logic of this argument is as follows: Zionism is a core value of Jewish identity. Criticism of Israel is, therefore, anti-Semitism. Jewish criticism of Israel must then be the result of the internalization of anti-Semitism."" Then it doesn't state it directly, but is a statement about a statement. Correction: I noticed the Finlay article have been published [28] so I've added it. I hope an academic paper published in a peer-reviewed journal is good enough. // Liftarn
OK, good idea lets work on wording. First off, its considered not very stylish to include sources mid sentance most the time. The following allows us to use your secondary sources, in effect, as primary sources:
Writers and political activists who have been critical of Israel report being called "self-hating jews" because of their political beliefs.
And we'd source it with footnotes. How's that?-- Urthogie 16:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
That would work too. Something like
Sounds good? // Liftarn
We'll go with that then. The problem with yours, liftarn, is that the motives are disputed, not the parts about being called self hating jews.-- Urthogie 19:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Your POV is "Self-hating Jew" is a correct analysis of somebody, my POV is "Self-hating Jew" merely a slur. (Nobody ever called himself of herself "Self-hating Jew".) But even if it is the correct analysis, we have no right to judge, if somebody is or is not a "Self-hating Jew". We can only report that somebody considers other person a "Self-hating Jew".
Masada2000 is not an encyclopedic source, I agree. But the fact is that they call Baruch Kimmerling a "Self-hating Jew". -- Vít Zvánovec 09:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but this is an article about "Self-hating Jews". In the article about red necks, there would be very useful to have Public Enemy's statement. Masada2000 represents small, but influent, part of Israeli public life. It is important to know who they consider a "Self-hating Jew". Otherwise Wikipedia hides the fact that Mr Kimmerling was offended and by whom. -- Vít Zvánovec 15:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
You are correct in your view that Wikipedia cannot reflect views of not important individuals. But Masada 2000 seems to me to be be a site of people connected with JDL and Kahane chai and similar groups. How do you know it is a work of one individual? -- Vít Zvánovec 09:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
22,200 Google hits is not enough? -- Vít Zvánovec 15:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Urthogie gets more than 10,000 [30]. Nice little comparison. By the way I'm a 16 year old kid with relatively new opinions. Perhaps we should quote my blog, on the basis that I have almost half that number of hits?-- Urthogie 15:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, you persuaded me. -- Vít Zvánovec 16:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
M. Savage's name was added to the list. Please see the previous section: unless a proof is provided, he's out. ← Humus sapiens ну? 03:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added Tony Kushner to the list, his statements about Israel and Judaism more than qualify him. 63.205.151.68 18:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I've deleted Sigmund Freud from the list of self hating jews, a reading of the source does not begin to put him in the class of those who actively speak against Jews and Israel
Self-hating is never without links to social pressure.Plus Jews themself are mixing ethnicity and political views in one term.Anti-judaism or anti-zionism are distinct from anti-semitism and each other. usually these who are critical(but not hating) of their own culture are much more progressive and open-minded,so criticism of "self-hating" apllies only to people who deeply hate themself based on their previcious allegiance to religion or political beliefs (such as zionism,and common perception of: Jew equals Zionist).Jewish anti-patriotism is really what they hint at(social pressure or conformism in cultural identity).
likes it's popularity. I thought we were beyond Jew Hating for sport as a people. I guess some people still get a kick out of it in spite of what happened at Auschwitz. This page shouldn't even exist, it is purely POV and has NO business in an Encyclopedia, but maybe there is room for it in the Tabloids. GNaw they wouldn't dare.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruce1333 ( talk • contribs) 17:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
If you can read script that is, but maybe it's just poor editing on your part.
Bruce1333 ( talk) 02:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It's still POV any way you wanna look at it, and has NO place in an encyclopedia.
Bruce1333 ( talk) 02:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be the equivelant of a subject on "Muslims and Ragheads" but I don't see that as useful information either, and an insult.
Bruce1333 ( talk) 03:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Cheers..
Bruce1333 ( talk) 05:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
"Even Theodor Herzl was described as being a self-hating Jew for an article he wrote entitled ‘Mauschel’ (Kike), which severely criticized a section of the Jewish community for, among other things, being ‘unspeakably mean and repellent’ (Herzl, 1897, cited in Elon, 1975, p251-2). His critic was Karl Kraus, who has himself been branded a self-hating Jew (Gilman, 1986; Le Rider, 1993; Robertson, 1985" [31] Homey 05:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The British Journal of Social Psychology is fringe? Homey 05:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
What about Professor Albert S. Lindemann of the University of California?
If you're going to say "see talk" in your edit note you should actually put a response, in talk, to Professor Lindemann's statement: Herzl himself came close to the position of blaming the victim; at least insofar as he considered the defects of Jews in Europe to be the most fundamental reason that they were hated by non-Jews. Herzl is not an easy man to pin down, but a number of scholars have arrived at the paradoxical conclusion that this founder of modern Zionism might be considered a "self-hating Jew." His admiration of the Gentile world -- his fondest dream was to be reborn as a Prussian Junker -- was remarkable, whereas his comments in his diary about many of the Jews he met and worked with were often caustic, even cruel and ugly. No less remarkable was Herzl's apparent lack of hatred for Gentiles, even the anti-Semites among them. The Jewish state he hoped to create was to be liberal-democratic, having few if any connections with Jewish tradition (about which, at any rate, he was not particularly well informed). Again, in a book so massively detailed and one in which Herzl might be described as the hero, Vital devotes curiously little attention to these glaring paradoxes and mostly ignores the recent secondary works that have brought them up. [33] Homey 05:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Source three: Preeminent Zionist Theodor Herzl was a self-hating Jew. As a correspondent in Paris he wrote, "I took a look at the Paris Jews and saw a family likeness in their faces: bold, misshapen noses; furtive and cunning eyes." He also wrote that anti-Semites were "fully within their rights."
Herzl believed that gentiles would realize a Jewish state was in their own interests; it would help them get rid of Jews. (Benjamin Harshav [34]) Homey 05:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
So, SV, will you do the intellectually honest thing and restore Herzl to the list of those accused of being "self-hating Jews"? If not, why not? Homey 05:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
If you're going to go to the trouble of moving a direct question from your talk page to this page you might as well also provide an answer. Given the credible citations given for Herzl will you now restore him to the list. If not, why not. It's completely unacceptable for your to continue reverting without justification. I'm quite disappointed by your behaviour. Homey 06:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think, humus sapiens, you fundamentally misunderstand the list. It is *not* a list of self-hating Jews, it's a list of people accused of being self-hating Jews and Herzl has been so accused, rightly or wrongly. A list of "self-hating Jews" would be completely subjective and inappropriate and if editors are under the misapprehension that this is the purpose of the list it may be better to remove it altogether. As for "fringe positions", again, we are not determining whether individuals are self-hating Jews but whether the accusation has been made. I am quite surprised the Professor Lindemann would be dismissed as "fringe" nevertheless, it doesn't matter whether he is or not. What matters is whether he has made the accusation and whether it's been disseminated in a mainstream source. I'm sure the people at the University of Oxford would be surprised to learn that one of their inistitutes is considered to be a "fringe" source by wikipedia. Homey 03:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I want to throw another wrench into the question of applying SHJ to particular individuals as a kind of objective diagnosis. As has been said above, the term is used almost exclusively as a political epithet, with the putative psychological issues off in the background. This is borne out by the examples. A google test for "Noam Chomsky" with "Self-Hating Jew" gets 10,100 hits. A test for "Bobby Fischer" gets only 81, and a test for "Dan Burros" gets only 4 hits, all of them mirrors of this article. In other words, without a source, this is WP:OR issue as well as a POV issue. This page cannot be the only place alleging that Burros was a self-hating Jew. Ethan Mitchell 19:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
How can someone be a 'former Jew'? Can he/she change his/her DNA? -- Vladko 05:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The epithet "self-hating Jew" is obviously disparaging. It appears that one of its uses is to brand and label certain views and attitudes as sick. So, if a Jew criticises some aspect of Jewish life and culture, an easy way to deflect the criticism is to accuse that person of being self-hating. That is, the epithet is being used to pressure individuals to conform to certain social, religious or political norms. Has this point been made by others? Michael Glass 12:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
In order for such talk to gain traction I think specifics are called for. You hypothesize about "a Jew criticizes some aspect of Jewish life and culture," without sufficient specificity. What criticism? About what aspect? Such generalizations can lead to wildly varying conclusions, I think. Bus stop 13:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Good point. Here's an example, taken from the article:
It seems that both parties disparaged each other, and 'self-hating Jew' was one of the epithets of choice in this struggle. Michael Glass 13:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
An editor has claimed that the phrase "Self-hating Jew" is "intended to insult Jews" and "used mainly by other Jews,", citing W. M. L. Finlay, "Pathologizing Dissent: Identity Politics, Zionism and the 'Self-Hating Jew'", British Journal of Social Psychology, Vol. 44 No. 2, June 2005, pp. 201-222. Online summary. Could you please quote the specific sentences in which Finlay states the term is "intended to insult Jews" and "used mainly by other Jews"? Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 04:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The term "self-hating Jew" was not originally intended as an insult, but rather as a diagnosis of a pathology. I suspect it is often still used in the same way. Adding "intended to insult Jews" to "epithet" is original research and, if it is actually true (which I doubt it is, at least not as a rule), redundant. Also, just because a source says "self-hate" is commonly used in the Jewish press, that's hardly a proof that it is "used mainly by other Jews". Please remove the original research from the article. Jayjg (talk) 00:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Is Bobby Fischer a self loathing Jew? I read that he used deflamatory language against the Jews in a radio interview in America, you see his mother was a Jew and I'm wondering if these two possiblities tie in, also are there ANY EXAMPLES OF SELF-HATING JEWS? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.13.122.220 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
I insist that this article be deleted or, at the very list be merged with the general self-hatred article.
There is absolutely no reason why so-called Jewish self-hatred be singuled out from all the other nationalities or races. This, in itself, strikes me as offensive (and that has nothing to do with the, admittedly subjective (and I would argue somewhat biased) nature of the article's content).
I could have just as well created an article on Belgian (picked completely at random) self-hatred and believe me I could ha ve come up with pages worth of factual support.
This BELONGS in the general self-hatred article both based on length and content and no reason why it should be singled out. This contributes nothing but actual hatred. Seriosly, this is making things too easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.153.200 ( talk • contribs) 23:27, May 31, 2007
CheskiChips ( talk) 11:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)I'm not sure of an article writing of a non-unified Israeli population is good for either our psyches. And it's surely not good fadder for enemies...but that's an emotionally driven comment.