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This section needs some expansion and I would like to elaborate on this part, talking about the Kurds in Syria, the lead up to the civil war and their role and activities during the war (PYD/KNC etc.) Expanding on the topic of sectarianism in relation to the Kurds would also be needed in my opinion. What are your thoughts about this?
```` ( talk) 12:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Small article on Alawis into this one, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_forking FunkMonk ( talk) 19:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I disagree. By the way, with your forced merge attempt you added twice some of the information. -- FavorLaw ( talk) 23:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to invite everyone active on this page to participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Alawite Sentiment in the 2011-2012 Syrian Uprising. No need to have two pages, one with an outrageously POV title, repeating the same information. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 23:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I took the liberty of condensing some of the (unverifiable) individual anecdotes about anti-Alawite violence into more general statements about the danger Alawites reportedly face from pro-opposition Sunnis in Syria. I'm looking now over the "Sunnis" section and I'm finding the same WP:DUE concern I had vis a vis the Alawite accounts. While I don't doubt shabiha have killed Sunni civilians during the uprising, based on numerous independent reports out of the country, why is one of these incidents in particular mentioned, as if it was a unique occurrence? It seems to me that this page is necessary because this sectarian violence has become systemic in Syria.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how this can be rewritten? - Kudzu1 ( talk) 19:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
2500 characters with new suppressed by you because you do not like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diroc2 ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
This may qualify here, a Shia Imam in Belgium was killed by a Sunni over the conflict in Syria: http://tribune.com.pk/story/349701/brussels-mosque-arsonist-wanted-to-scare-shia-community-over-syria-violence/ FunkMonk ( talk) 15:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Sopher99 has removed parts referenced by Agenzia Fides claiming that it is a biased news agency. I don't think that anyone is allowed to make such a judgement with proper consultation. Anyway even if we agree that Fides is unreliable as a neutral source it's still illegible to be mentioned since it doesn't claim to be the source of the info but rather sites official local Christian authorities.-- Rafy talk 01:31, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I see three major problems with the section... overall though, I would say, it portrays Christians as pro-Assad when in reality a better description would be that they are divided or neutral.
1) Most problematically, the section paints a simplistic and often incorrect picture of Christians universally supporting Assad and that the opposition is hostile to them and their existence. While there are Christians that support Assad, and there are opposition members who are intolerant Sunnis, it is a huuuuge stretch to say that all of both groups can be described this way. Earlier in the uprising it was well-known that many Christians were active in the protests, and Christian quarters of towns helped the protestors by providing them with shelter, water, etc. Early in, it was widely claimed that a majority of Christians supported the uprising. Much of this support drained away in the summer and fall of 2011 because of the presence of a small but visible minority of radical Salafi Islamists among the opposition, who shouted sectarian (and ethnic) chants, and Christians originally in the protests deserted. But that doesn't mean there are many pro-Assad Christians (like there are very pro-Assad Alawites). Even most "pro-Assad" Christians' views are more along the lines of Assad being the lesser evil, and they wouldn't take up arms to fight for him the way Alawites would. Furthermore, there are still many Christians involved with or supporting the opposition- they are represented in the SNC and the local committees, they are in the FSA, and many support the opposition in practical ways. For example, according to a recent Economist article (see here: [ [3]]), one church-based group ferries medicine. According to the same article, Christians and Muslims even attend funerals together. Thankfully, there are a couple of sentences noting that some Christians support the opposition, but the section is hugely unbalanced, in favor of the "Christians are like Alawites and the opposition kills them" viewpoint, which is not necessarily mainstream. Christians are not like Alawites- a better analogy would be Kurds. -- Yalens ( talk) 19:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
2) There are some questionable sources in the section. It would be better to have political analyses and/or at least respected (and secular) media outlets like, say, the Economist or Reuters, rather than the Christian Post and catholicCulture.org. You could hardly call the latter neutral. -- Yalens ( talk) 19:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
3) The page, erroneously, treats Christians in Syria like they are a homogenous group (once again, like Alawites...). They are not. First of all, they aren't even all the same ethnicity: there are Armenians, Assyrians(mainly only in the Northeast) and then the "normal" Syrian Christians who have the same Arabic~Aramaic culture as their Muslim brethren. Then, these three ethnicities are divided between different Christian sects (and there are a small number of Assyrian Muslims). All these different Christian groups don't necessarily have the same stances. For example, Armenians are said to be much more likely to take a negative view of the opposition, because of the stance of their church and because of despised Turkey's association with the opposition. It might make sense to at least point out on the page that "Christians" are not a single group. -- Yalens ( talk) 19:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't think a Saudi news outlet qualifies as a reliable source. Almost all claims found in this article are false and easily refutable.
There is without any doubt high ranking church officials that are alienating themselves from the regime, though this doesn't necessary implies that they became pro-rebels. Here is an interview in German with the head of the Syriac Catholic Church where he is clearly against the "totalitäres Regime" of Syria but still wary of the "islamische religiöse Fanatiker". [7] Similar fears are expressed by the Syriac Orthodox Archbishop of Aleppo, the second highest ranking official in that Church. [8]-- Rafy talk 17:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
A recently produced image (a map of ethnic & religious areas in Syria) was added to the article, but there is no sourcing for the image. E.g., it was created by someone and uploaded, but we have no indications as to how or from where the data for the map came from. We are simply told it was the creation of the unknown editor. In this regard, the map is utterly without WP:RS or WP:V and cannot be used. -- S. Rich ( talk) 14:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Please continue editing starting from my current balanced version less based on one Saudi source. The Sunni population of Syria holds still a majority of government posts. The government posts in absolute numbers are Sunni Muslims, but the president and some other ministers are Alawi (Shi'ite offshoot), also recognized by Shia as fellow Muslims. A majority of Syria's Sunni Muslims are moderate, especially in the large cities and towns where Sunnis are used to co-existence with Shi'ites (Ismaili's 2 % of Syria), Alawis (12 %) and especially Christians (who always continued to live as a large minority in the larger towns of the Sunni parts of Syria). The tendencies which carry the Syrian uprising, as during the Islamic Uprising in Syria 1980-1982, are the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists and some of their minor Islamist groups. They organized different armed jihadist fronts, which were joined by foreign Wahabi and takfiri Salafist "Sunni" Muslims not representative of the general moderate (and sometimes Sufi) Sunni Muslim majority of Syria. The claim that the regime is based on Alawis and that Assad was burning churches is from Al Arabiya, the voice and puppet news channel of the dictator king of Saudi Arabia which is a directly involved party in this conflict. One cannot take over his sources, nor statements of the US Foreign Ministry. Cypriot, Chinese, Russian, African and especially Lebanese sources are more informed and more balanced. Even Israeli sources are more reliable, Haaretz indicating that the Alawis and the urban Sunni Muslim moderate and secular-minded majority carry the current laicist Ba'ath Party Syrian Arab Republic state. Some of the Saudi source even calls Alawi Muslims " Alevites", which form only 0.5 % of Syrians (mostly Kurds and Turkmen minority). Shia Muslims in Syria are either Ismaili (2 %) or Alawites (12 %). We should look for more reliable sources. The Syrian Civil War is not between civilian groups but rather an Uprising mainly supported by Islamists, although also some Communists, laicist banned opposition politicians, a few Christians and exiled Muslim Brotherhood "moderates" carry this armed struggle. Some of the Syrian National Council, even the Assyrian Democratic Organization of Assyrian separatist nationalist Christians, promote peaceful demonstrations and dialogue. Just like Vladimir Putin called for too, but which the foreign powers Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Hillary Clinton refuse to allow. Peaceful political negotiations are sabotaged. See you here again after the NATO aerial aggressive war about to start now. NiederlandeFW ( talk) 10:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
This page is named as if it were about religious groups only. However, some of the groups noted include Kurds and Turkmen, and their differentiating factor is not religion but ethnicity. Perhaps we could have Ethnoreligious dimension of the Syrian civil war or something like that as a new name?-- Yalens ( talk) 16:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
This article is very poor and needs some serious addition. Also the image needs updating to reflect smaller ethno-religious groups such as syria shias and Yezidis. There are many large predominantly shia towns in Syria such as Nubbul and Zahra near aleppo with 60,000 people each as well as Fou'aa and kafaria with around 100,000 people for both of them. Added to that the large NATIVE (NOT IRAQI OR LEBANESE) Shia population in sayyida Zainab, aljoura and Al Amin neighbourhoods in Old Damascus and rural damascus. there are also over 50 shia villages in and around Homs region so the native syria shia population can easily each over half a million....hope u update your article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.100.153.91 ( talk) 23:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
As fatwah'ed by a Salafi preacher who used to live in Syria: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/3/islamic-cleric-decrees-it-ok-syrian-rebels-rape-wo/#.UV7pISZhdsw.blogger No wonder the "rebels" swarm in from all over the world. FunkMonk ( talk) 10:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Kathovo argues that this edit (
[13]) should stay because the BBC is, in his/her opinion, more reliable than Al-Arabiya. However, the matter actually has nothing to do with the BBC- instead, it has to do with...:
A) The edit is useless as it repeats things already said elsewhere in the section.
B) It gives a one-sided, POV interpretation of events. In reality, various different articles paint different pictures. It isn't just Saudi-funded Al-Arabiya which notes taht there are many Christians who are quite hostile to Assad- so does, for example, The Economist among others. In order to respect
WP:NPOV policy, the page must paint both sides of hte picture. The wording of the paragraph, placed at the beginning of the section, does exactly the opposite. I might add that the original version did show both sides:
“ | The stance of Christians in the conflict has a full range from strongly supporting the opposition to neutrality to supporting the Assad government as a guarantor of stability | ” |
C) Kathovo's wording actually changes what the cited source says. For example, the sources saying that Christians had a "relatively high level of tolerance" (relatively meaning more than other Middle Eastern countries) is changed to a "high level of tolerance" (i.e. totally changing the meaning), that they held "some positions" in government was changed to "many positions" and so on. All of these changes, needless to say, are pretty questionable editing practice, in addition to being
WP:SYN problems.
I hope this sufficiently explained my reasons for reverting. --
Yalens (
talk) 22:40, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Article pushes really hard to the idea of poor, good sunnis vs. bad shias. It mentions up front of involvement of Hezbollah and Iran but fails to mention, even later on, about the Sunni Islamic jihadists who flood Syria since 2011. Sunnis are massively supported by the Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey not to even mention the US. It's nowhere to be found in the article. Don't make a bad guy of Assad as opposition has a lot of blood on their hands too, really dirty blood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 ( talk) 05:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
This is based on a 3 year old source [14] which is certainly out of date. Worse, I can only find figures for Arab-Sunni and Alawite, not the rest. I see Greeks was just added. Dougweller ( talk) 17:24, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The article is overly long, and it doesn't have to be. Sectarianism is its own subject, and so are minorities. FunkMonk ( talk) 14:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
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Article nowhere mentions the fact that the Sunni Arabs are a backbone of the Syrian secular government. Syrian Arab Army is composed mainly from Sunni Syrians, so was shabiha in the Aleppo governate. Sunnis hold governmental positions such as internal security, foreign affairs, and even the head of all armed forces are all Sunnis. Shias are not a significant minority in Syria to let government fight for 5 years, Sunnis make up 70%+ of all Syrians. More sources here: Sunni Shabiha, Why Assad's Sunni Army Has Not Defected, Assad's Sunni Foot Soldiers.
Section is biased and shows all Syrian Sunnis as those opposing the Syrian government which is a lie.
The article seems to be promoting ISIS ideas when stating what they are saying and even putting it in Arabic!! Most of sources here are really unreliable or bias. Could anyone suggest how this can be fixed? The article needs to be rewritten against in my opinion. SharabSalam ( talk) 20:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:06, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
There are a few issues that I noticed on this page that I would like to point out. They mainly show bias in the selection of stories/sources and ignoring the full picture. I also discuss some other issues. I don't necessarily know how to fix it or have the time to track down references, but I wanted to mention them so that someone else might graciously contribute. I will not cite a reference for every statement here (otherwise I would be editing the actual page), but the following should be easily verifiable.
1- Overall, reading the page gave me the impression that minorities suffered higher casualties than the Sunni majority in the Syrian civil war. However, this is verifiably false (see [ [15]] for example), even accounting for combatant deaths. It is true that the Alawite minority is probably overrepresented amongst all deaths, as is stated on this page; however, the Sunni (Arab) majority is disproportionately represented if we look at civilian casualties only, especially that the civilian victims of even the opposition and ISIL (which together, with the SDF's and US-led coalition's victims, represent something like 5-10% at most) have been mostly Sunnis. Of course, the sources above as the SOHR and UN sources repeatedly say, is probably an undercount especially in the government's victims, since there are tens of thousands of missing persons unaccounted for who disappeared in Syrian prisons (and the Syrian government hasn't lost control of its territories so no mass graves or burial sites could be found to give some estimate of the number killed, as happened when ISIS was defeated in Eastern Syria). It is also worth noting that foreign journalists, human rights activists, and media are rarely allowed in government-controlled areas, and when allowed usually monitored or given a controlled narrative (see 2 below), so that's probably another reason to expect that the number of people killed by the government is especially undercounted.
2- Some sources cite people living within Syria as denying the government committed certain crimes or accusing the rebels of committing others. However, it definitely should be noted that these reports can't be trusted even without the presence of government handlers. It is well-known that Syrians in the country are afraid of government retribution for any statements against them (which can be easily traced based on who talked with reporters and then what those reporters said in their reports). Even outside Syria, most Syrians can't talk freely against the government because they fear for their relatives there. I am sure it would be easy to find many sources of stories of reprisals against Syrian journalists and eyewitnesses inside Syria, or relatives of those outside Syria.
3- Something specific: there are citations from fides.org or the Vatican news network in the "Attacks on Christians and Churches" subsection that offer conflicting stories. It seems that the source updated its story based on new sources that denied that the Christians were expelled by Islamist rebels, but the original story is still mentioned with reference to the older article. It is worth mentioning that the older article cites an official church inside Syria, whose testimony suffers from the issues in (2) above, since they'd be an identifiable target for reprisals.
4- It seems like the page includes a lot of information on the history of some minorities in ways that are irrelevant to the civil war situation. For example, the "Arab Christians" subsection says nothing on their stance or suffering in the civil war. Similarly for the "Greeks" subsection. The section on the Kurds seems pretty balanced, which I was impressed by, but it includes a *lot* of history that seems unnecessary in a page on sectarianism and minorities in the civil war. This info would perhaps be better suited for a page on the development of Kurdish national identity (if such a page doesn't already exist).
5- The section on Sufis seems to imply that Sufis aren't Sunnis, which would be in opposition to the opinion of practically all of the Sufis themselves (who generally believe they are the "real" Sunnis, not the Salafis for example). Even amongst non-Sufis, save for some more radical Salafi elements, they are generally considered part of Sunni Islam.
6- At the end of the Twelver Shias subsection, a translation of a Quranic verse seems to be original research by the person who wrote it, based on a (deleted) tweet on Twitter. In any case, the translation is pretty inaccurate: the "die in rage" should be something like "die of [your] rage", if translated literally, but is probably better translated as something like "wallow in your sorrow/anger". However, I have found some translations online that do use "die *in*" (which I know is not correct as a native speaker), so maybe at least it should be mentioned that there are different translations, as it seems to me the meaning is lost in translation here (since no literal "death" is intended).
7- Finally, I am not sure the subsection on Chechens is suitable for this page, since the Chechens aren't a Syrian minority, although they have participated in the war (this also applied to Uzbeks and Uighurs). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lotan98 ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
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This section needs some expansion and I would like to elaborate on this part, talking about the Kurds in Syria, the lead up to the civil war and their role and activities during the war (PYD/KNC etc.) Expanding on the topic of sectarianism in relation to the Kurds would also be needed in my opinion. What are your thoughts about this?
```` ( talk) 12:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Small article on Alawis into this one, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_forking FunkMonk ( talk) 19:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I disagree. By the way, with your forced merge attempt you added twice some of the information. -- FavorLaw ( talk) 23:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to invite everyone active on this page to participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Alawite Sentiment in the 2011-2012 Syrian Uprising. No need to have two pages, one with an outrageously POV title, repeating the same information. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 23:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I took the liberty of condensing some of the (unverifiable) individual anecdotes about anti-Alawite violence into more general statements about the danger Alawites reportedly face from pro-opposition Sunnis in Syria. I'm looking now over the "Sunnis" section and I'm finding the same WP:DUE concern I had vis a vis the Alawite accounts. While I don't doubt shabiha have killed Sunni civilians during the uprising, based on numerous independent reports out of the country, why is one of these incidents in particular mentioned, as if it was a unique occurrence? It seems to me that this page is necessary because this sectarian violence has become systemic in Syria.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how this can be rewritten? - Kudzu1 ( talk) 19:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
2500 characters with new suppressed by you because you do not like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diroc2 ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
This may qualify here, a Shia Imam in Belgium was killed by a Sunni over the conflict in Syria: http://tribune.com.pk/story/349701/brussels-mosque-arsonist-wanted-to-scare-shia-community-over-syria-violence/ FunkMonk ( talk) 15:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Sopher99 has removed parts referenced by Agenzia Fides claiming that it is a biased news agency. I don't think that anyone is allowed to make such a judgement with proper consultation. Anyway even if we agree that Fides is unreliable as a neutral source it's still illegible to be mentioned since it doesn't claim to be the source of the info but rather sites official local Christian authorities.-- Rafy talk 01:31, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I see three major problems with the section... overall though, I would say, it portrays Christians as pro-Assad when in reality a better description would be that they are divided or neutral.
1) Most problematically, the section paints a simplistic and often incorrect picture of Christians universally supporting Assad and that the opposition is hostile to them and their existence. While there are Christians that support Assad, and there are opposition members who are intolerant Sunnis, it is a huuuuge stretch to say that all of both groups can be described this way. Earlier in the uprising it was well-known that many Christians were active in the protests, and Christian quarters of towns helped the protestors by providing them with shelter, water, etc. Early in, it was widely claimed that a majority of Christians supported the uprising. Much of this support drained away in the summer and fall of 2011 because of the presence of a small but visible minority of radical Salafi Islamists among the opposition, who shouted sectarian (and ethnic) chants, and Christians originally in the protests deserted. But that doesn't mean there are many pro-Assad Christians (like there are very pro-Assad Alawites). Even most "pro-Assad" Christians' views are more along the lines of Assad being the lesser evil, and they wouldn't take up arms to fight for him the way Alawites would. Furthermore, there are still many Christians involved with or supporting the opposition- they are represented in the SNC and the local committees, they are in the FSA, and many support the opposition in practical ways. For example, according to a recent Economist article (see here: [ [3]]), one church-based group ferries medicine. According to the same article, Christians and Muslims even attend funerals together. Thankfully, there are a couple of sentences noting that some Christians support the opposition, but the section is hugely unbalanced, in favor of the "Christians are like Alawites and the opposition kills them" viewpoint, which is not necessarily mainstream. Christians are not like Alawites- a better analogy would be Kurds. -- Yalens ( talk) 19:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
2) There are some questionable sources in the section. It would be better to have political analyses and/or at least respected (and secular) media outlets like, say, the Economist or Reuters, rather than the Christian Post and catholicCulture.org. You could hardly call the latter neutral. -- Yalens ( talk) 19:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
3) The page, erroneously, treats Christians in Syria like they are a homogenous group (once again, like Alawites...). They are not. First of all, they aren't even all the same ethnicity: there are Armenians, Assyrians(mainly only in the Northeast) and then the "normal" Syrian Christians who have the same Arabic~Aramaic culture as their Muslim brethren. Then, these three ethnicities are divided between different Christian sects (and there are a small number of Assyrian Muslims). All these different Christian groups don't necessarily have the same stances. For example, Armenians are said to be much more likely to take a negative view of the opposition, because of the stance of their church and because of despised Turkey's association with the opposition. It might make sense to at least point out on the page that "Christians" are not a single group. -- Yalens ( talk) 19:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't think a Saudi news outlet qualifies as a reliable source. Almost all claims found in this article are false and easily refutable.
There is without any doubt high ranking church officials that are alienating themselves from the regime, though this doesn't necessary implies that they became pro-rebels. Here is an interview in German with the head of the Syriac Catholic Church where he is clearly against the "totalitäres Regime" of Syria but still wary of the "islamische religiöse Fanatiker". [7] Similar fears are expressed by the Syriac Orthodox Archbishop of Aleppo, the second highest ranking official in that Church. [8]-- Rafy talk 17:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
A recently produced image (a map of ethnic & religious areas in Syria) was added to the article, but there is no sourcing for the image. E.g., it was created by someone and uploaded, but we have no indications as to how or from where the data for the map came from. We are simply told it was the creation of the unknown editor. In this regard, the map is utterly without WP:RS or WP:V and cannot be used. -- S. Rich ( talk) 14:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Please continue editing starting from my current balanced version less based on one Saudi source. The Sunni population of Syria holds still a majority of government posts. The government posts in absolute numbers are Sunni Muslims, but the president and some other ministers are Alawi (Shi'ite offshoot), also recognized by Shia as fellow Muslims. A majority of Syria's Sunni Muslims are moderate, especially in the large cities and towns where Sunnis are used to co-existence with Shi'ites (Ismaili's 2 % of Syria), Alawis (12 %) and especially Christians (who always continued to live as a large minority in the larger towns of the Sunni parts of Syria). The tendencies which carry the Syrian uprising, as during the Islamic Uprising in Syria 1980-1982, are the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists and some of their minor Islamist groups. They organized different armed jihadist fronts, which were joined by foreign Wahabi and takfiri Salafist "Sunni" Muslims not representative of the general moderate (and sometimes Sufi) Sunni Muslim majority of Syria. The claim that the regime is based on Alawis and that Assad was burning churches is from Al Arabiya, the voice and puppet news channel of the dictator king of Saudi Arabia which is a directly involved party in this conflict. One cannot take over his sources, nor statements of the US Foreign Ministry. Cypriot, Chinese, Russian, African and especially Lebanese sources are more informed and more balanced. Even Israeli sources are more reliable, Haaretz indicating that the Alawis and the urban Sunni Muslim moderate and secular-minded majority carry the current laicist Ba'ath Party Syrian Arab Republic state. Some of the Saudi source even calls Alawi Muslims " Alevites", which form only 0.5 % of Syrians (mostly Kurds and Turkmen minority). Shia Muslims in Syria are either Ismaili (2 %) or Alawites (12 %). We should look for more reliable sources. The Syrian Civil War is not between civilian groups but rather an Uprising mainly supported by Islamists, although also some Communists, laicist banned opposition politicians, a few Christians and exiled Muslim Brotherhood "moderates" carry this armed struggle. Some of the Syrian National Council, even the Assyrian Democratic Organization of Assyrian separatist nationalist Christians, promote peaceful demonstrations and dialogue. Just like Vladimir Putin called for too, but which the foreign powers Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Hillary Clinton refuse to allow. Peaceful political negotiations are sabotaged. See you here again after the NATO aerial aggressive war about to start now. NiederlandeFW ( talk) 10:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
This page is named as if it were about religious groups only. However, some of the groups noted include Kurds and Turkmen, and their differentiating factor is not religion but ethnicity. Perhaps we could have Ethnoreligious dimension of the Syrian civil war or something like that as a new name?-- Yalens ( talk) 16:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
This article is very poor and needs some serious addition. Also the image needs updating to reflect smaller ethno-religious groups such as syria shias and Yezidis. There are many large predominantly shia towns in Syria such as Nubbul and Zahra near aleppo with 60,000 people each as well as Fou'aa and kafaria with around 100,000 people for both of them. Added to that the large NATIVE (NOT IRAQI OR LEBANESE) Shia population in sayyida Zainab, aljoura and Al Amin neighbourhoods in Old Damascus and rural damascus. there are also over 50 shia villages in and around Homs region so the native syria shia population can easily each over half a million....hope u update your article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.100.153.91 ( talk) 23:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
As fatwah'ed by a Salafi preacher who used to live in Syria: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/3/islamic-cleric-decrees-it-ok-syrian-rebels-rape-wo/#.UV7pISZhdsw.blogger No wonder the "rebels" swarm in from all over the world. FunkMonk ( talk) 10:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Kathovo argues that this edit (
[13]) should stay because the BBC is, in his/her opinion, more reliable than Al-Arabiya. However, the matter actually has nothing to do with the BBC- instead, it has to do with...:
A) The edit is useless as it repeats things already said elsewhere in the section.
B) It gives a one-sided, POV interpretation of events. In reality, various different articles paint different pictures. It isn't just Saudi-funded Al-Arabiya which notes taht there are many Christians who are quite hostile to Assad- so does, for example, The Economist among others. In order to respect
WP:NPOV policy, the page must paint both sides of hte picture. The wording of the paragraph, placed at the beginning of the section, does exactly the opposite. I might add that the original version did show both sides:
“ | The stance of Christians in the conflict has a full range from strongly supporting the opposition to neutrality to supporting the Assad government as a guarantor of stability | ” |
C) Kathovo's wording actually changes what the cited source says. For example, the sources saying that Christians had a "relatively high level of tolerance" (relatively meaning more than other Middle Eastern countries) is changed to a "high level of tolerance" (i.e. totally changing the meaning), that they held "some positions" in government was changed to "many positions" and so on. All of these changes, needless to say, are pretty questionable editing practice, in addition to being
WP:SYN problems.
I hope this sufficiently explained my reasons for reverting. --
Yalens (
talk) 22:40, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Article pushes really hard to the idea of poor, good sunnis vs. bad shias. It mentions up front of involvement of Hezbollah and Iran but fails to mention, even later on, about the Sunni Islamic jihadists who flood Syria since 2011. Sunnis are massively supported by the Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey not to even mention the US. It's nowhere to be found in the article. Don't make a bad guy of Assad as opposition has a lot of blood on their hands too, really dirty blood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 ( talk) 05:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
This is based on a 3 year old source [14] which is certainly out of date. Worse, I can only find figures for Arab-Sunni and Alawite, not the rest. I see Greeks was just added. Dougweller ( talk) 17:24, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The article is overly long, and it doesn't have to be. Sectarianism is its own subject, and so are minorities. FunkMonk ( talk) 14:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
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Article nowhere mentions the fact that the Sunni Arabs are a backbone of the Syrian secular government. Syrian Arab Army is composed mainly from Sunni Syrians, so was shabiha in the Aleppo governate. Sunnis hold governmental positions such as internal security, foreign affairs, and even the head of all armed forces are all Sunnis. Shias are not a significant minority in Syria to let government fight for 5 years, Sunnis make up 70%+ of all Syrians. More sources here: Sunni Shabiha, Why Assad's Sunni Army Has Not Defected, Assad's Sunni Foot Soldiers.
Section is biased and shows all Syrian Sunnis as those opposing the Syrian government which is a lie.
The article seems to be promoting ISIS ideas when stating what they are saying and even putting it in Arabic!! Most of sources here are really unreliable or bias. Could anyone suggest how this can be fixed? The article needs to be rewritten against in my opinion. SharabSalam ( talk) 20:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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There are a few issues that I noticed on this page that I would like to point out. They mainly show bias in the selection of stories/sources and ignoring the full picture. I also discuss some other issues. I don't necessarily know how to fix it or have the time to track down references, but I wanted to mention them so that someone else might graciously contribute. I will not cite a reference for every statement here (otherwise I would be editing the actual page), but the following should be easily verifiable.
1- Overall, reading the page gave me the impression that minorities suffered higher casualties than the Sunni majority in the Syrian civil war. However, this is verifiably false (see [ [15]] for example), even accounting for combatant deaths. It is true that the Alawite minority is probably overrepresented amongst all deaths, as is stated on this page; however, the Sunni (Arab) majority is disproportionately represented if we look at civilian casualties only, especially that the civilian victims of even the opposition and ISIL (which together, with the SDF's and US-led coalition's victims, represent something like 5-10% at most) have been mostly Sunnis. Of course, the sources above as the SOHR and UN sources repeatedly say, is probably an undercount especially in the government's victims, since there are tens of thousands of missing persons unaccounted for who disappeared in Syrian prisons (and the Syrian government hasn't lost control of its territories so no mass graves or burial sites could be found to give some estimate of the number killed, as happened when ISIS was defeated in Eastern Syria). It is also worth noting that foreign journalists, human rights activists, and media are rarely allowed in government-controlled areas, and when allowed usually monitored or given a controlled narrative (see 2 below), so that's probably another reason to expect that the number of people killed by the government is especially undercounted.
2- Some sources cite people living within Syria as denying the government committed certain crimes or accusing the rebels of committing others. However, it definitely should be noted that these reports can't be trusted even without the presence of government handlers. It is well-known that Syrians in the country are afraid of government retribution for any statements against them (which can be easily traced based on who talked with reporters and then what those reporters said in their reports). Even outside Syria, most Syrians can't talk freely against the government because they fear for their relatives there. I am sure it would be easy to find many sources of stories of reprisals against Syrian journalists and eyewitnesses inside Syria, or relatives of those outside Syria.
3- Something specific: there are citations from fides.org or the Vatican news network in the "Attacks on Christians and Churches" subsection that offer conflicting stories. It seems that the source updated its story based on new sources that denied that the Christians were expelled by Islamist rebels, but the original story is still mentioned with reference to the older article. It is worth mentioning that the older article cites an official church inside Syria, whose testimony suffers from the issues in (2) above, since they'd be an identifiable target for reprisals.
4- It seems like the page includes a lot of information on the history of some minorities in ways that are irrelevant to the civil war situation. For example, the "Arab Christians" subsection says nothing on their stance or suffering in the civil war. Similarly for the "Greeks" subsection. The section on the Kurds seems pretty balanced, which I was impressed by, but it includes a *lot* of history that seems unnecessary in a page on sectarianism and minorities in the civil war. This info would perhaps be better suited for a page on the development of Kurdish national identity (if such a page doesn't already exist).
5- The section on Sufis seems to imply that Sufis aren't Sunnis, which would be in opposition to the opinion of practically all of the Sufis themselves (who generally believe they are the "real" Sunnis, not the Salafis for example). Even amongst non-Sufis, save for some more radical Salafi elements, they are generally considered part of Sunni Islam.
6- At the end of the Twelver Shias subsection, a translation of a Quranic verse seems to be original research by the person who wrote it, based on a (deleted) tweet on Twitter. In any case, the translation is pretty inaccurate: the "die in rage" should be something like "die of [your] rage", if translated literally, but is probably better translated as something like "wallow in your sorrow/anger". However, I have found some translations online that do use "die *in*" (which I know is not correct as a native speaker), so maybe at least it should be mentioned that there are different translations, as it seems to me the meaning is lost in translation here (since no literal "death" is intended).
7- Finally, I am not sure the subsection on Chechens is suitable for this page, since the Chechens aren't a Syrian minority, although they have participated in the war (this also applied to Uzbeks and Uighurs). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lotan98 ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 18 November 2021 (UTC)