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Hackett et al (2008 Science. 320:1763-1767) places the Secretary bird in Acciptridae. They do not have Sagittariidae. This should be changed, unless my reading of Hackett et al's phylogeny is incorrect. Can an expert comment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.88.37 ( talk) 17:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Is the image of a tree relevant or vandalism?-- 203.45.119.219 23:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
What does the "Monday" refer to in the reference The Terror Birds of South America - Marshall, L.G., Scientific American, 82-89 (Mnday 1 March 2001)? Is it Monday? (I think the first of March in 2001 fell on a Thursday.) -- KathrynLybarger ( talk) 18:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Needs a separate distribution and status section. AshLin ( talk) 04:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Nominated 27th April 2009;
Support:
Comments:
These eggs are incubated primarily by the female for 45 days until they hatch. Any cites for this? According to HBW both birds incubate, with some variation between pairs. Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm pasting in here an edit by John Fairfield ( talk · contribs), who provided an alternative first record of this species, using the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica as his source. I wanted to be sure he had a chance to defend his edit. I note, however, that Miller is listed as the first describer of this taxon, as indicated by the entry in the infobox.
SECRETARY-BIRD, a very singular African bird, first accurately made known, from an example living in the menagerie of the prince of Orange, in 1769 by A. Vosmaer,' in a treatise published simultaneously in Dutch and French, and afterwards included in his collected works issued, under the title of Regnum Animale, in 1804. He was told that at the Cape of Good Hope this bird was known as the "Sagittarius" or Archer, from its striding gait being thought to resemble that of a bowman advancing to shoot, but that this name had been corrupted into that of "Secretarius."
Thank you very much for your quick response. I am not sure which of our sources are considered to be the most "authentic" but I believe that at least the Encyclopedia Britannica (quoted below) is pretty adamant on whom it considers to have provided the first "description" of the Secretary Bird as well the fact that it has been described by several others prior to Miller. You will, however, notice that the EB concedes at the end of the article that Miller is considered the first to have conferred a scientific name on the Secretary Bird (albeit erroneous = "Falco serpentarius"). In conclusion I would like to mention that I have an original copy of Vosmaers Treatise of the Secretary Bird (published in 1769) in my collection and that at least in my opinion this document and its illustration provide a far more accurate portrayal of the bird than Miller
Kind Regards,
John F.
Start Quote
SECRETARY-BIRD, a very singular African bird, first accurately made known, from an example living in the menagerie of the prince of Orange, in 1769 by A. Vosmaer,' in a treatise published simultaneously in Dutch and French, and afterwards included in his collected works issued, under the title of Regnum Animale, in 1804. He was told that at the Cape of Good Hope this bird was known as the "Sagittarius" or Archer, from its striding gait being thought to resemble that of a bowman advancing to shoot, but that this name had been corrupted into that of "Secretarius." In August 1770 G. Edwards saw an example Secretary-Bird (apparently alive, and the survivor of a pair which had been brought to England) in the possession of a Mr Raymond near Ilford in Essex; and, being unacquainted with Vosmaer's work, he figured and described it as "of a new genus" in the Philosophical Transactions for the following year (lxi. pp. 55, 56, pl. ii.). In 1776 P. Sonnerat (Voy. Nouv. Guinee, p. 87, pl. 50) again described and figured, but not at all correctly, the species, saying (but no doubt wrongly) that he found it in 1771 in the Philippine Islands. A better representation was given by D'Aubenton in 1 Le Valliant (Sec. Voy. Afrique, ii. p. 273) truly states that Kolben in 1719 (Caput Bonae Spei hodiernum, p. 182, French version, ii. p. 198) had mentioned this bird under its local name of "Snakeeater" (Slangenvreeter, Dutch translation, i. p. 214); but that author, who was a bad naturalist, thought it was a Pelican and also confounded it with the Spoonbill, which is figured to illustrate his account of it the Planches enluminees (721); in 1780 Buffon (Oiseaux, vii. p. 33 o) published some additional information derived from Querhoent, saying also that it was to be seen in some English menageries; and the following year J. Latham (Synopsis, i. p. 20, pl. 2) described and figured it from three examples which he had seen alive in England. None of these authors, however, gave the bird a scientific name, and the first conferred upon it seems to have been that of Falco serpentarius, inscribed on a plate bearing date 1779, by John Frederick Miller (Ill. Nat. History, xxviii.), which plate appears also in Shaw's Cimelia Physica (No. 28) and is a misleading caricature
End Quote
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:John_Fairfield" —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Fairfield ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The history of the taxonomy is a little involved and probably too technical to include in the article - but I'll mention it here. (I don't completely understand it)
I noticed that in 1891 Sharpe in Vol 1 of his Hand-list placed the secretarybird in the order Accipitriformes, the family Serpentariidae and the genus Serpentarius. see here - this differs from the present taxonomy.
Walter Bock in 1994 on p. 212 of his book History and Nomenclature of Avian Family-Group Names writes:
"(23) SAGITTARIIDAE Finsch and Hartlaub, 1870 (1825) (Sagittarius Hermann, 1783) conserved in preference to Gypogeranidae Vigors, 1825 (Gypogeranus Illiger, 1811 = Sagittarius) and Serpentariidae Selys-Longchamps, 1842 (Serpentarius Cuvier, 1798 = Sagittarius) [Art. 40(b)]."
The ICZN code: Article 40. Synonymy of the type genus (There are paras 40.1, 40.2 and 40.2.1 but no 40(b))
It appears that although Finsch and Hartlaub introduced Sagittariidae (actually as Sagittariinae) in 1870, well after Gypogeranidae Vigors, 1825 and Serpentariidae Selys-Longchamps, 1842, Sagittariidae has priority because the genus Sagittarius Hermann, 1783 has priority over both Gypogeranus Illiger, 1811 and Serpentarius Cuvier, 1798.
Art. 40.2.1. "A name maintained by virtue of this Article retains its own author but takes the priority of the replaced name, of which it is deemed to be the senior synonym."
So presumably this is why Bock puts (1825) in brackets after Sagittariidae as that is the date that Vigors introduced Gypogeranidae.
- Aa77zz ( talk) 15:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mzQI2gLbok
The link is to a video of a secretary bird making its deep growling noise. - Aa77zz ( talk) 15:07, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
So shall we decide which section each of use does? Also does anybody else have The Birds of Africa? If not I'll order it. LittleJerry ( talk) 22:23, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
Just looking at content, wondering whether there is more on vocalisations. Will have a look. Also taxonomic history - need a source that shows all tehse are synonyms. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 03:06, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay - have nominated at GAN. Will get some fresh eyes on it that way. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 02:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Casliber, Aa77zz whats the next step? LittleJerry ( talk) 22:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: The Rambling Man ( talk · contribs) 10:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Comments
That's all I have on a quick run through. Hopefully some of it's helpful. It's on hold. Cheers. The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
No problem everyone, I thoroughly enjoyed the article which is beyond GA quality. I hope to see it at FAC soon. I'm promoting, as the name issue is somewhat outside the scope of the GA criteria, but I would still be interested to see any justification, especially if this does go to FAC. Cheers. The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
So I was surprised to see this graph, which indicates the spaced form is more widely used, yet the IOC, HBW, Clements, IUCN redlist all have unspaced. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 11:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
San Diego Zoo uses spaced. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 11:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone see any other important sources using spaced? Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 11:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
With regard to the following: Glenn's statement would only make sense if there was evidence that the Dutch/Afrikaans name secretaris was not itself ultimately derived from Arabic, i.e. there is no reason why Dutch could not have acquired a mutated form of the Arabic name. (Possibly via French, another Romance language, or the Latin commonly used in scientific circles in the early modern era.)
"C. Hilary Fry of Aberdeen University suggested that "secretary" is from the French secrétaire, a corruption of the Arabic صقر الطير saqr et-tair meaning either "hawk of the semi-desert"... Glenn has dismissed this etymology on the grounds that there is no evidence that the name came through French, instead supporting Buffon's etymology; namely, that the word comes from the Dutch secretaris "secretary", used by settlers in South Africa."
I have to say that the hypotheses that the name relates somehow to the appearance/behaviour of the bird, reek of folk etymology. Fry's hypothesis is far more plausible in terms of linguistics and how loanwords mutate, in the transition from one language to another.
![]() | Secretarybird is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 30, 2023. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hackett et al (2008 Science. 320:1763-1767) places the Secretary bird in Acciptridae. They do not have Sagittariidae. This should be changed, unless my reading of Hackett et al's phylogeny is incorrect. Can an expert comment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.88.37 ( talk) 17:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Is the image of a tree relevant or vandalism?-- 203.45.119.219 23:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
What does the "Monday" refer to in the reference The Terror Birds of South America - Marshall, L.G., Scientific American, 82-89 (Mnday 1 March 2001)? Is it Monday? (I think the first of March in 2001 fell on a Thursday.) -- KathrynLybarger ( talk) 18:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Needs a separate distribution and status section. AshLin ( talk) 04:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Nominated 27th April 2009;
Support:
Comments:
These eggs are incubated primarily by the female for 45 days until they hatch. Any cites for this? According to HBW both birds incubate, with some variation between pairs. Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm pasting in here an edit by John Fairfield ( talk · contribs), who provided an alternative first record of this species, using the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica as his source. I wanted to be sure he had a chance to defend his edit. I note, however, that Miller is listed as the first describer of this taxon, as indicated by the entry in the infobox.
SECRETARY-BIRD, a very singular African bird, first accurately made known, from an example living in the menagerie of the prince of Orange, in 1769 by A. Vosmaer,' in a treatise published simultaneously in Dutch and French, and afterwards included in his collected works issued, under the title of Regnum Animale, in 1804. He was told that at the Cape of Good Hope this bird was known as the "Sagittarius" or Archer, from its striding gait being thought to resemble that of a bowman advancing to shoot, but that this name had been corrupted into that of "Secretarius."
Thank you very much for your quick response. I am not sure which of our sources are considered to be the most "authentic" but I believe that at least the Encyclopedia Britannica (quoted below) is pretty adamant on whom it considers to have provided the first "description" of the Secretary Bird as well the fact that it has been described by several others prior to Miller. You will, however, notice that the EB concedes at the end of the article that Miller is considered the first to have conferred a scientific name on the Secretary Bird (albeit erroneous = "Falco serpentarius"). In conclusion I would like to mention that I have an original copy of Vosmaers Treatise of the Secretary Bird (published in 1769) in my collection and that at least in my opinion this document and its illustration provide a far more accurate portrayal of the bird than Miller
Kind Regards,
John F.
Start Quote
SECRETARY-BIRD, a very singular African bird, first accurately made known, from an example living in the menagerie of the prince of Orange, in 1769 by A. Vosmaer,' in a treatise published simultaneously in Dutch and French, and afterwards included in his collected works issued, under the title of Regnum Animale, in 1804. He was told that at the Cape of Good Hope this bird was known as the "Sagittarius" or Archer, from its striding gait being thought to resemble that of a bowman advancing to shoot, but that this name had been corrupted into that of "Secretarius." In August 1770 G. Edwards saw an example Secretary-Bird (apparently alive, and the survivor of a pair which had been brought to England) in the possession of a Mr Raymond near Ilford in Essex; and, being unacquainted with Vosmaer's work, he figured and described it as "of a new genus" in the Philosophical Transactions for the following year (lxi. pp. 55, 56, pl. ii.). In 1776 P. Sonnerat (Voy. Nouv. Guinee, p. 87, pl. 50) again described and figured, but not at all correctly, the species, saying (but no doubt wrongly) that he found it in 1771 in the Philippine Islands. A better representation was given by D'Aubenton in 1 Le Valliant (Sec. Voy. Afrique, ii. p. 273) truly states that Kolben in 1719 (Caput Bonae Spei hodiernum, p. 182, French version, ii. p. 198) had mentioned this bird under its local name of "Snakeeater" (Slangenvreeter, Dutch translation, i. p. 214); but that author, who was a bad naturalist, thought it was a Pelican and also confounded it with the Spoonbill, which is figured to illustrate his account of it the Planches enluminees (721); in 1780 Buffon (Oiseaux, vii. p. 33 o) published some additional information derived from Querhoent, saying also that it was to be seen in some English menageries; and the following year J. Latham (Synopsis, i. p. 20, pl. 2) described and figured it from three examples which he had seen alive in England. None of these authors, however, gave the bird a scientific name, and the first conferred upon it seems to have been that of Falco serpentarius, inscribed on a plate bearing date 1779, by John Frederick Miller (Ill. Nat. History, xxviii.), which plate appears also in Shaw's Cimelia Physica (No. 28) and is a misleading caricature
End Quote
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:John_Fairfield" —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Fairfield ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The history of the taxonomy is a little involved and probably too technical to include in the article - but I'll mention it here. (I don't completely understand it)
I noticed that in 1891 Sharpe in Vol 1 of his Hand-list placed the secretarybird in the order Accipitriformes, the family Serpentariidae and the genus Serpentarius. see here - this differs from the present taxonomy.
Walter Bock in 1994 on p. 212 of his book History and Nomenclature of Avian Family-Group Names writes:
"(23) SAGITTARIIDAE Finsch and Hartlaub, 1870 (1825) (Sagittarius Hermann, 1783) conserved in preference to Gypogeranidae Vigors, 1825 (Gypogeranus Illiger, 1811 = Sagittarius) and Serpentariidae Selys-Longchamps, 1842 (Serpentarius Cuvier, 1798 = Sagittarius) [Art. 40(b)]."
The ICZN code: Article 40. Synonymy of the type genus (There are paras 40.1, 40.2 and 40.2.1 but no 40(b))
It appears that although Finsch and Hartlaub introduced Sagittariidae (actually as Sagittariinae) in 1870, well after Gypogeranidae Vigors, 1825 and Serpentariidae Selys-Longchamps, 1842, Sagittariidae has priority because the genus Sagittarius Hermann, 1783 has priority over both Gypogeranus Illiger, 1811 and Serpentarius Cuvier, 1798.
Art. 40.2.1. "A name maintained by virtue of this Article retains its own author but takes the priority of the replaced name, of which it is deemed to be the senior synonym."
So presumably this is why Bock puts (1825) in brackets after Sagittariidae as that is the date that Vigors introduced Gypogeranidae.
- Aa77zz ( talk) 15:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mzQI2gLbok
The link is to a video of a secretary bird making its deep growling noise. - Aa77zz ( talk) 15:07, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
So shall we decide which section each of use does? Also does anybody else have The Birds of Africa? If not I'll order it. LittleJerry ( talk) 22:23, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
Just looking at content, wondering whether there is more on vocalisations. Will have a look. Also taxonomic history - need a source that shows all tehse are synonyms. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 03:06, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay - have nominated at GAN. Will get some fresh eyes on it that way. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 02:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Casliber, Aa77zz whats the next step? LittleJerry ( talk) 22:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: The Rambling Man ( talk · contribs) 10:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Comments
That's all I have on a quick run through. Hopefully some of it's helpful. It's on hold. Cheers. The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
No problem everyone, I thoroughly enjoyed the article which is beyond GA quality. I hope to see it at FAC soon. I'm promoting, as the name issue is somewhat outside the scope of the GA criteria, but I would still be interested to see any justification, especially if this does go to FAC. Cheers. The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
So I was surprised to see this graph, which indicates the spaced form is more widely used, yet the IOC, HBW, Clements, IUCN redlist all have unspaced. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 11:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
San Diego Zoo uses spaced. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 11:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone see any other important sources using spaced? Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 11:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
With regard to the following: Glenn's statement would only make sense if there was evidence that the Dutch/Afrikaans name secretaris was not itself ultimately derived from Arabic, i.e. there is no reason why Dutch could not have acquired a mutated form of the Arabic name. (Possibly via French, another Romance language, or the Latin commonly used in scientific circles in the early modern era.)
"C. Hilary Fry of Aberdeen University suggested that "secretary" is from the French secrétaire, a corruption of the Arabic صقر الطير saqr et-tair meaning either "hawk of the semi-desert"... Glenn has dismissed this etymology on the grounds that there is no evidence that the name came through French, instead supporting Buffon's etymology; namely, that the word comes from the Dutch secretaris "secretary", used by settlers in South Africa."
I have to say that the hypotheses that the name relates somehow to the appearance/behaviour of the bird, reek of folk etymology. Fry's hypothesis is far more plausible in terms of linguistics and how loanwords mutate, in the transition from one language to another.