This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– As per
WP:COMMONNAME (with the issue of recognizability being the most important here),
WP:NATURAL and
WP:PRECISE, with the due required respect to
WP:NCCAPS and the
WP naming convention on government agencies which, while not of direct application (as these are not proper government departments or agencies), can serve as a general guideline for clarification.
Some context: For a long time, government/cabinet articles have been entirely absent of any specific naming conventions in Wikipedia, leading to a wide range of different choices for naming those that were typically left at the users' leisure. The main differences revolve on capitalization, numbering format and syntax, with the three most common formats currently at use throughout the wiki being reflected in
this discussion earlier this year attempting to seek a consensus on the issue (which ultimately went nowhere because of failing to gain attention, meaning this must be addressed in a case-by-case basis). At the time, I was more supportive of the [Head of government] [ordinal number] [government/cabinet/ministry] format (i.e. the one that is currently in use for the articles whose move is now requested), but it has several problems, of which two are the most concerning ones: 1. it is not natural spelling, so while it can be very useful as an actual proper name for use when brevity is required (tables, templates and infoboxes) it is unlikely to be the title that readers will look the most for those articles. And 2.(and the one ultimately leading me to change my view) is that of precision: using only surnames paves the way for a lot of confusion to unfold, both at the national level (i.e. the governments of
Felipe González and
Antonio González;
José María Aznar and
Juan Bautista Aznar-Cabañas;
Pedro Sánchez and
Vicente Sancho;
Bernardino Fernández de Velasco,
Fernando Fernández de Córdova and
Raimundo Fernández-Villaverde) and at the regional one (
Felipe González and
Ignacio González;
Patxi López and
Joaquín María López y López; the aforementioned Fernández ones and
Javier Fernández/
Guillermo Fernández Vara/
Alfonso Fernández Mañueco; etc.). This not counting other Spanish-speaking countries where surnames such as "García", "Sánchez", "Fernández", "González", etc. are also common and can lead to conflicts at an international scale. Even if the second surname was forced into the title for disambiguation, it could lead to further issues if the individual is not well-known under that second surname (i.e. Pedro Sánchez Pérez-Castejón, José María Aznar López) and if the overall title ends up looking cluttered by a random aggregation of ordinal numbers, surnames and overall syntax.
As a result, the proposal is to change the titles of the aforementioned Spanish national governments to the "[Ordinal number] government of [the prime minister's
common name" format and capitalized with respect to
WP:NCCAPS, in the way that has been requested. In the event that only one government was formed by any given person (such as
Leopoldo Calvo-Sotelo) then no ordinal would be required.
Impru20talk00:23, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
I consider it unnecessarily long. I would prefer a shorter title such us "First González government, Second..." and in the case of Calvo-Sotelo just "Calvo-Sotelo government".
TheRichic(
Messages here)
08:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
@
TheRichic: I know and I thought of it as an alternative choice, but then it comes the issue of the multiple surname system in Spanish-speaking countries and in many heads of government in the Spanish-speaking world using fairly-common surnames ("Fernández", "Sánchez", "González"). A system like that has been in practice (albeit unofficially) for some time for regional governments, and it's somewhat chaotic:
Second Susana Díaz government,
Díaz Ayuso government,
Third Fernández Vara Government and
Fernández Mañueco Government (note that I moved these ones last year ago from their original
Third Guillermo Fernández Government and
Alfonso Fernández Government titles, which were even harder to recognize),
González Government (Community of Madrid),
Javier Fernández government... disambiguation is required most of the time, but its application is unconsistent: sometimes the name is used, sometimes the second surname is added, sometimes the place is preferred... and that syntax only makes the overall picture look messy.
The proposal I made attempts to avoid such trauma for Spanish national governments by always using the (full) common name of the officeholder ("Pedro Sánchez", not "Sánchez" or "Pedro Sánchez Pérez-Castejón"), while reminding that this is still a government-related topic, meaning that
clarity and
naturalness should blend well with a feeling of institutionality and professionality. The major sacrifice comes on the length, true, but that's not a major issue for government-related topics as per
WP:NCGAL and, ultimately, advantages on disambiguation make this choice far superior. After all, we already have names such as
Cabinet of Donald Trump (not "Trump cabinet"),
Government of the 32nd Dáil (not "32nd Dáil Government"),
Second cabinet of Geir Haarde (not "Second Haarde cabinet"),
XXI Constitutional Government of Portugal (not "Portuguese XXI Constitutional Government") and so on. And still, it's shorter than other proposals that could be thrown (it should be noted that
Arias Navarro II Government was
originally named as
1st Government under the restored Monarchy of Spain, which is both similar in lenght or even longer and not precise enough as the proposal made, since there was another widely-known
Restoration of the Monarchy in Spain in 1874/1875 and a first government under it).
Impru20talk10:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Support as proposed. It's fair to say that the current titles are broken English. I concur with Impru20 that having full prime minister names makes it sufficiently unambiguous and precise without sacrificing much of conciseness.
No such user (
talk)
14:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment I have added some more articles of new creation on Spanish governments. As a matter of convenience, those have been created under the old format since I didn't feel it was right to name them using the newly-proposed scheme with this RM still ongoing. However, their fate should obviously be the same as that of the other articles, with the same arguments applying.
Impru20talk23:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– As per
WP:COMMONNAME (with the issue of recognizability being the most important here),
WP:NATURAL and
WP:PRECISE, with the due required respect to
WP:NCCAPS and the
WP naming convention on government agencies which, while not of direct application (as these are not proper government departments or agencies), can serve as a general guideline for clarification.
Some context: For a long time, government/cabinet articles have been entirely absent of any specific naming conventions in Wikipedia, leading to a wide range of different choices for naming those that were typically left at the users' leisure. The main differences revolve on capitalization, numbering format and syntax, with the three most common formats currently at use throughout the wiki being reflected in
this discussion earlier this year attempting to seek a consensus on the issue (which ultimately went nowhere because of failing to gain attention, meaning this must be addressed in a case-by-case basis). At the time, I was more supportive of the [Head of government] [ordinal number] [government/cabinet/ministry] format (i.e. the one that is currently in use for the articles whose move is now requested), but it has several problems, of which two are the most concerning ones: 1. it is not natural spelling, so while it can be very useful as an actual proper name for use when brevity is required (tables, templates and infoboxes) it is unlikely to be the title that readers will look the most for those articles. And 2.(and the one ultimately leading me to change my view) is that of precision: using only surnames paves the way for a lot of confusion to unfold, both at the national level (i.e. the governments of
Felipe González and
Antonio González;
José María Aznar and
Juan Bautista Aznar-Cabañas;
Pedro Sánchez and
Vicente Sancho;
Bernardino Fernández de Velasco,
Fernando Fernández de Córdova and
Raimundo Fernández-Villaverde) and at the regional one (
Felipe González and
Ignacio González;
Patxi López and
Joaquín María López y López; the aforementioned Fernández ones and
Javier Fernández/
Guillermo Fernández Vara/
Alfonso Fernández Mañueco; etc.). This not counting other Spanish-speaking countries where surnames such as "García", "Sánchez", "Fernández", "González", etc. are also common and can lead to conflicts at an international scale. Even if the second surname was forced into the title for disambiguation, it could lead to further issues if the individual is not well-known under that second surname (i.e. Pedro Sánchez Pérez-Castejón, José María Aznar López) and if the overall title ends up looking cluttered by a random aggregation of ordinal numbers, surnames and overall syntax.
As a result, the proposal is to change the titles of the aforementioned Spanish national governments to the "[Ordinal number] government of [the prime minister's
common name" format and capitalized with respect to
WP:NCCAPS, in the way that has been requested. In the event that only one government was formed by any given person (such as
Leopoldo Calvo-Sotelo) then no ordinal would be required.
Impru20talk00:23, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
I consider it unnecessarily long. I would prefer a shorter title such us "First González government, Second..." and in the case of Calvo-Sotelo just "Calvo-Sotelo government".
TheRichic(
Messages here)
08:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
@
TheRichic: I know and I thought of it as an alternative choice, but then it comes the issue of the multiple surname system in Spanish-speaking countries and in many heads of government in the Spanish-speaking world using fairly-common surnames ("Fernández", "Sánchez", "González"). A system like that has been in practice (albeit unofficially) for some time for regional governments, and it's somewhat chaotic:
Second Susana Díaz government,
Díaz Ayuso government,
Third Fernández Vara Government and
Fernández Mañueco Government (note that I moved these ones last year ago from their original
Third Guillermo Fernández Government and
Alfonso Fernández Government titles, which were even harder to recognize),
González Government (Community of Madrid),
Javier Fernández government... disambiguation is required most of the time, but its application is unconsistent: sometimes the name is used, sometimes the second surname is added, sometimes the place is preferred... and that syntax only makes the overall picture look messy.
The proposal I made attempts to avoid such trauma for Spanish national governments by always using the (full) common name of the officeholder ("Pedro Sánchez", not "Sánchez" or "Pedro Sánchez Pérez-Castejón"), while reminding that this is still a government-related topic, meaning that
clarity and
naturalness should blend well with a feeling of institutionality and professionality. The major sacrifice comes on the length, true, but that's not a major issue for government-related topics as per
WP:NCGAL and, ultimately, advantages on disambiguation make this choice far superior. After all, we already have names such as
Cabinet of Donald Trump (not "Trump cabinet"),
Government of the 32nd Dáil (not "32nd Dáil Government"),
Second cabinet of Geir Haarde (not "Second Haarde cabinet"),
XXI Constitutional Government of Portugal (not "Portuguese XXI Constitutional Government") and so on. And still, it's shorter than other proposals that could be thrown (it should be noted that
Arias Navarro II Government was
originally named as
1st Government under the restored Monarchy of Spain, which is both similar in lenght or even longer and not precise enough as the proposal made, since there was another widely-known
Restoration of the Monarchy in Spain in 1874/1875 and a first government under it).
Impru20talk10:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Support as proposed. It's fair to say that the current titles are broken English. I concur with Impru20 that having full prime minister names makes it sufficiently unambiguous and precise without sacrificing much of conciseness.
No such user (
talk)
14:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment I have added some more articles of new creation on Spanish governments. As a matter of convenience, those have been created under the old format since I didn't feel it was right to name them using the newly-proposed scheme with this RM still ongoing. However, their fate should obviously be the same as that of the other articles, with the same arguments applying.
Impru20talk23:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: