This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Second anointing article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, apologetics, or polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, apologetics, or polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
"more sure word of prophecy" or having your "calling and election made sure" as well as a reference to Peter and JS to support the different phrases that refer to the Second Anointing. -- Dvhatwiki 19:59, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How can an ordinance in a temple as stated in the first paragraph possibly deliver on all that is mentioned scripturally and otherwise in the remainder of the article? Is this article implying that the President of the Church sends a letter to elderly Mr. and Mrs. Mfala Ndongo of Kenya and invites them to Salt Lake to receive the Second Anointing from him? Do we have references for this assertion? We certainly can't make this stuff up. Is it possible that this article should have a duality of presentation similar to the Kolob article, in which the Second Anointing alternately meanse a temple ordinance or a direct personal inward spiritual blessing. Tom Haws 20:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I have tried to improve access to sources. In doing so, I ran across the 1993 Deseret publication of Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith ( ISBN 0875796478). Since it is listed as 100 p. longer than the other editions, and lists Richard C. Galbraith as coauthor, I am uncertain as to whether it is the same book as Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Can anyone clarify this?-- Blainster 17:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Does the anonymous blog post really count as any kind of a source?--crawdad 6— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crawdad6 ( talk • contribs) 23:54, 17 November 2010
Article cites Mormon Doctrine, pg. 109-110, for reference to Second Anointing. In actuality, this falls under the heading of “Calling and Election Sure.” While it could be assumed that E. McConkie was covering the topic of “Second Anointing,” he in now way refers to it directly [or even indirectly for there is no heading in Mormon Doctrine for “Second Anointing,” to include a redirect to “Calling and Election” or any other topic). It is misleading to state: According to prominent 20th century Latter-day Saint Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, those who receive the Second Anointing "receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. . . . [T]heir exaltation is assured.” In the preface to the quote, it should state “Calling and Election made sure” instead of “Second Anointing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rojerts ( talk • contribs) 21:37, 10 July 2006
forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=6223
www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1200929251&newest=1200937409
www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm
Agape bright ( talk) 18:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
There is new primary source information available about this topic. Agape bright ( talk) 16:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
How does exmormon.org meet wp:RS for use in this article? How are unsupported POV statements characterizing Tom Phillips &/or mormonthink.com pertinent to this article? -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 21:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
It's not clear and I think it should be that Tom Philips claims to have actually witnessed, his own, second anointing. Currently it reads as if he just believes in it--it's a big difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.185.2.211 ( talk) 06:36, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I have removed the current sentences referring to John Dehlin and Tom Philips for the following reasons.
From a wp:Identifying reliable sources point of view:
From a confusing sentence point of view:
From a general What is not allowed on Wikipedia point of view:
I see absolutely no reliable sources backing Tom Philips claims, not even John Dehlin. Additionally Tom Philips blog is rumor and opinion pieces and rumors and opinion pieces have place on Wikipedia.--- ARTEST4ECHO( Talk) 18:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
It appears that this has been brought up in the past, but I'm not seeing a clear consensus above about this source in particular and there has been a renewed interest by one editor in using it as a source. IMO Dehlin's podcast fails the requirements in WP:SPS - the podcast is essentially a self-published blog in audio form, which is largely not a reliable source per that policy. The only exception for this, according to the policy, is if it is self-published by an expert in the field who has previously published on the subject in reliable, third-party sources. Mormon Stories podcast simply does not satisfy this criteria. I also don't see the use here as satisfying the conditions for use outlined in WP:SELFPUB. I would remind User:Deroque49 about the WP:V policy as well as WP:3RR, which they violated last night, and of WP:AGF, which this edit summary violates. Please explain how the source meets the WP:SPS policy in your view. Consensus needs to be reached here through the usual dispute resolution processes before reinserting the challenged text. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 12:42, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I understand that private may not be exactly synonymous with secret. Might I suggest "confidential" as a good substitute? My concern with secret is that secret is often used by church critics to deride things relating the Latter-day Saint temple worship. 2601:681:8800:E4D0:80AD:7B1:C258:7625 ( talk) 01:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Second anointing article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, apologetics, or polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, apologetics, or polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
"more sure word of prophecy" or having your "calling and election made sure" as well as a reference to Peter and JS to support the different phrases that refer to the Second Anointing. -- Dvhatwiki 19:59, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How can an ordinance in a temple as stated in the first paragraph possibly deliver on all that is mentioned scripturally and otherwise in the remainder of the article? Is this article implying that the President of the Church sends a letter to elderly Mr. and Mrs. Mfala Ndongo of Kenya and invites them to Salt Lake to receive the Second Anointing from him? Do we have references for this assertion? We certainly can't make this stuff up. Is it possible that this article should have a duality of presentation similar to the Kolob article, in which the Second Anointing alternately meanse a temple ordinance or a direct personal inward spiritual blessing. Tom Haws 20:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I have tried to improve access to sources. In doing so, I ran across the 1993 Deseret publication of Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith ( ISBN 0875796478). Since it is listed as 100 p. longer than the other editions, and lists Richard C. Galbraith as coauthor, I am uncertain as to whether it is the same book as Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Can anyone clarify this?-- Blainster 17:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Does the anonymous blog post really count as any kind of a source?--crawdad 6— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crawdad6 ( talk • contribs) 23:54, 17 November 2010
Article cites Mormon Doctrine, pg. 109-110, for reference to Second Anointing. In actuality, this falls under the heading of “Calling and Election Sure.” While it could be assumed that E. McConkie was covering the topic of “Second Anointing,” he in now way refers to it directly [or even indirectly for there is no heading in Mormon Doctrine for “Second Anointing,” to include a redirect to “Calling and Election” or any other topic). It is misleading to state: According to prominent 20th century Latter-day Saint Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, those who receive the Second Anointing "receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. . . . [T]heir exaltation is assured.” In the preface to the quote, it should state “Calling and Election made sure” instead of “Second Anointing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rojerts ( talk • contribs) 21:37, 10 July 2006
forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=6223
www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1200929251&newest=1200937409
www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm
Agape bright ( talk) 18:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
There is new primary source information available about this topic. Agape bright ( talk) 16:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
How does exmormon.org meet wp:RS for use in this article? How are unsupported POV statements characterizing Tom Phillips &/or mormonthink.com pertinent to this article? -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 21:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
It's not clear and I think it should be that Tom Philips claims to have actually witnessed, his own, second anointing. Currently it reads as if he just believes in it--it's a big difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.185.2.211 ( talk) 06:36, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I have removed the current sentences referring to John Dehlin and Tom Philips for the following reasons.
From a wp:Identifying reliable sources point of view:
From a confusing sentence point of view:
From a general What is not allowed on Wikipedia point of view:
I see absolutely no reliable sources backing Tom Philips claims, not even John Dehlin. Additionally Tom Philips blog is rumor and opinion pieces and rumors and opinion pieces have place on Wikipedia.--- ARTEST4ECHO( Talk) 18:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
It appears that this has been brought up in the past, but I'm not seeing a clear consensus above about this source in particular and there has been a renewed interest by one editor in using it as a source. IMO Dehlin's podcast fails the requirements in WP:SPS - the podcast is essentially a self-published blog in audio form, which is largely not a reliable source per that policy. The only exception for this, according to the policy, is if it is self-published by an expert in the field who has previously published on the subject in reliable, third-party sources. Mormon Stories podcast simply does not satisfy this criteria. I also don't see the use here as satisfying the conditions for use outlined in WP:SELFPUB. I would remind User:Deroque49 about the WP:V policy as well as WP:3RR, which they violated last night, and of WP:AGF, which this edit summary violates. Please explain how the source meets the WP:SPS policy in your view. Consensus needs to be reached here through the usual dispute resolution processes before reinserting the challenged text. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 12:42, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I understand that private may not be exactly synonymous with secret. Might I suggest "confidential" as a good substitute? My concern with secret is that secret is often used by church critics to deride things relating the Latter-day Saint temple worship. 2601:681:8800:E4D0:80AD:7B1:C258:7625 ( talk) 01:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)