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This sounds more like a bedtime story than an encyclopedic article. I think it needs a thorough rewrite with proper sources. 84.56.146.148 22:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"Bomber crews claimed to have shot down 138 German planes" Soemone put "(False)" after this. Do they mean no such claim was made, or that it was wrong, which is in hte article? Rich Farmbrough 14:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
The summary line, to say the least, is a spectacular understatement.--Buckboard 10:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I just read in Pierre Clostermann's book (Le Grand Cirque) that several squadrons of Spitfires with drop tanks escorted the bombers on the first and last legs of the raid. So the article is wrong claiming that RAF did not cooperate. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.8.118.46 (
talk)
20:50, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
The damage to the bombers is attributed in part as being caused "(more by AA-guns than the Luftwaffe)". It's important to note that the AA defenses in Germany at that point in the war manned by Luftwaffe ground units. It is more correct to say the damage was done "more by AA-guns than by fighter aircraft". I will make that change.
Sailboatd2 13:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
There exists differences between Allied air crew claims and German records in that Allied crews claimed all planes shot down but Germans only claimed it as being shot down if it crashed and killed the aircrew. If the pilot survived, it was not considered a loss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.182.171 ( talk) 15:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Marienburg is far from Schweinfurt and at the beginning of the article there is nothing said about another force that went at this day in this direction, why mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.205.140 ( talk) 22:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The exact same picture is used for the first raid.Could someone look into it? -- Sam 02:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
This section of the article seems to be concerned with an entirely different operation, a raid on Gdansk, Gdynia and Marienburg, not with the Second Schweinfurt raid! It should be reviewed.
-- 84.226.146.251 ( talk) 12:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
It is being claimed that the effects of this raid in 1943 caused the US Air Force to lose "air supremacy" over Germany for several months. I would dispute the assertion that the US Air Force had achieved "air supremacy" over Germany prior to this raid. Have a look at the definition of air supremacy. For one side to have achieved "air supremacy", the other side must be suppressed to the point of being ineffectual. In 1943, that was not the case. Tallewang ( talk) 07:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
It was not. We couldn't lose it because at no point up to then did we have it to lose. Putting in this article is misleading. The author of the book this quote comes from repeatedly talks about air superiority, and about how the AAF gained it, in the Med, in Africa, in Sicily, and in Italy. Nowhere does he mention or argue that at any time before the end of 43, where the book ends, that we established air superiority over Germany. And if you don't have it, you can't loose it in the fashion implied by the use of the quote here. It's obvious from what happened in the Schweinfurt–Regensburg missions that we could not have possessed any thing resembling it. Yet it is a quote from the book, but there is a huge difference in being a reader reading a line on page 705 of a huge work full of contexts, than reading it in an encyclopedic work. It would be easy for a reader here to get the completely false notion that the Allies had air superiority over Germany at any point prior to Oct 43, then lost it. Jackhammer111 ( talk) 03:02, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
According to Pierre Clostermann's own account of the operations this day (The Big Show, ISBN 978-1-4072-2200-4), RAF Spitfires flew escort missions alongside the Americans into Germany. Would someone with the required skills please add this information to the page and include the British/RAF to the table showing the belligerents. 94.196.110.244 ( talk) 23:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
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There's an information box on the right of the article titled "Casualties and Losses"
For the Americans is notes that 1 P-47 3 P-47 fighters
were lost
Why is one P-47 differentiated from the other three ?
Montalban ( talk) 13:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
It currently says “ ~590 KIA, 43 WIA, 65 POWs.”
There is simply no way this is correct. It seems to presume that airmen whose status was unconfirmed following the mission were confirmed KIA. While the number of KIA is not small, hundreds of those were actually POWs.
B-17 crash sites for this mission and the fate of their respective crews can be viewed at the link below. While this link is not an academic source, it references each crew member and their specific fate, and references each Missing Air Crew Report for each aircraft.
https://b17flyingfortress.de/en/datenbank/b-17-verluste-bei-schweinfurt-mission-am-14-10-1943/ 2600:1700:290:91B0:50A6:62DE:20F:BBAC ( talk) 14:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
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This sounds more like a bedtime story than an encyclopedic article. I think it needs a thorough rewrite with proper sources. 84.56.146.148 22:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"Bomber crews claimed to have shot down 138 German planes" Soemone put "(False)" after this. Do they mean no such claim was made, or that it was wrong, which is in hte article? Rich Farmbrough 14:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
The summary line, to say the least, is a spectacular understatement.--Buckboard 10:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I just read in Pierre Clostermann's book (Le Grand Cirque) that several squadrons of Spitfires with drop tanks escorted the bombers on the first and last legs of the raid. So the article is wrong claiming that RAF did not cooperate. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.8.118.46 (
talk)
20:50, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
The damage to the bombers is attributed in part as being caused "(more by AA-guns than the Luftwaffe)". It's important to note that the AA defenses in Germany at that point in the war manned by Luftwaffe ground units. It is more correct to say the damage was done "more by AA-guns than by fighter aircraft". I will make that change.
Sailboatd2 13:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
There exists differences between Allied air crew claims and German records in that Allied crews claimed all planes shot down but Germans only claimed it as being shot down if it crashed and killed the aircrew. If the pilot survived, it was not considered a loss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.182.171 ( talk) 15:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Marienburg is far from Schweinfurt and at the beginning of the article there is nothing said about another force that went at this day in this direction, why mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.205.140 ( talk) 22:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The exact same picture is used for the first raid.Could someone look into it? -- Sam 02:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
This section of the article seems to be concerned with an entirely different operation, a raid on Gdansk, Gdynia and Marienburg, not with the Second Schweinfurt raid! It should be reviewed.
-- 84.226.146.251 ( talk) 12:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
It is being claimed that the effects of this raid in 1943 caused the US Air Force to lose "air supremacy" over Germany for several months. I would dispute the assertion that the US Air Force had achieved "air supremacy" over Germany prior to this raid. Have a look at the definition of air supremacy. For one side to have achieved "air supremacy", the other side must be suppressed to the point of being ineffectual. In 1943, that was not the case. Tallewang ( talk) 07:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
It was not. We couldn't lose it because at no point up to then did we have it to lose. Putting in this article is misleading. The author of the book this quote comes from repeatedly talks about air superiority, and about how the AAF gained it, in the Med, in Africa, in Sicily, and in Italy. Nowhere does he mention or argue that at any time before the end of 43, where the book ends, that we established air superiority over Germany. And if you don't have it, you can't loose it in the fashion implied by the use of the quote here. It's obvious from what happened in the Schweinfurt–Regensburg missions that we could not have possessed any thing resembling it. Yet it is a quote from the book, but there is a huge difference in being a reader reading a line on page 705 of a huge work full of contexts, than reading it in an encyclopedic work. It would be easy for a reader here to get the completely false notion that the Allies had air superiority over Germany at any point prior to Oct 43, then lost it. Jackhammer111 ( talk) 03:02, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
According to Pierre Clostermann's own account of the operations this day (The Big Show, ISBN 978-1-4072-2200-4), RAF Spitfires flew escort missions alongside the Americans into Germany. Would someone with the required skills please add this information to the page and include the British/RAF to the table showing the belligerents. 94.196.110.244 ( talk) 23:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Second Raid on Schweinfurt. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
There's an information box on the right of the article titled "Casualties and Losses"
For the Americans is notes that 1 P-47 3 P-47 fighters
were lost
Why is one P-47 differentiated from the other three ?
Montalban ( talk) 13:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
It currently says “ ~590 KIA, 43 WIA, 65 POWs.”
There is simply no way this is correct. It seems to presume that airmen whose status was unconfirmed following the mission were confirmed KIA. While the number of KIA is not small, hundreds of those were actually POWs.
B-17 crash sites for this mission and the fate of their respective crews can be viewed at the link below. While this link is not an academic source, it references each crew member and their specific fate, and references each Missing Air Crew Report for each aircraft.
https://b17flyingfortress.de/en/datenbank/b-17-verluste-bei-schweinfurt-mission-am-14-10-1943/ 2600:1700:290:91B0:50A6:62DE:20F:BBAC ( talk) 14:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)