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![]() | On 8 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to First Chimurenga. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
"According to the Ndebele, the Zimbabwe government has tried to misappropriate this history after Zimbabwe's independence by trying to rename it the First Chimurenga. In fact, the word 'Chimurenga' is a word applied by the Zimbabwe government retrospectively to facts that do not bear it out either in name or numbering. The first anti-colonial war is the First Matebele War of 1893 to 1894, called in isiNdebele "Imfazwe", so even misappropriating Umvukela as a 'chimurenga' it would not be the first but the second. Both Imfazwe and Umvukela wars are known internationally as the two Matebele Wars; there is no reference to 'Chimurenga' in those historical accounts. And both wars pitted Ndebele warriors against BSAC forces and Shona people conscripted into the BSAC force."
I am sure the title of this article is as contentious as Second Chimurenga/ Rhodesian Bush War and the arguments for the current title and those for First Chimurenga are similar. However, an added problem of the title Second Matabele War is that it provides no scope for discussion of the events in Mashonaland, which were intimately linked, for example by the work of the medium Mukwati. So, as expected, I favour First Chimurenga. Babakathy ( talk) 16:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
For the Ndebele a staggering 50,000 are estimated. I would say this qualifies as "citation needed".-- 134.93.178.88 ( talk) 13:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
The image File:British South Africa Police.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 21:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
I believe that Mlimo is a title not an individuals name and that there were at least two during this war.
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Second Matabele War/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
The name "Mlimo" is incorrect, as Mlimo is the shona/ndebele word for Creator or GOD. The man assasinated by Burnham was called Mukwati, this is easily researched in ZIMBABWEAN history books (even thoughs written by Europeans, which seem to bare more importance on this site). It is misleading and offensive to quote old out-of-date text that refer to a "Phophet" as "GOD". If this was a "Allah v Mohammed" or a "Jehovah v St Paul" situation, wiki would have by now sorted the problem, however, whenever Zimbabwean Historians try and correct the wiki text, its quickly reverted to the incorrect European version. Can this be changed??? |
Last edited at 01:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 05:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Why did he supported the invasion of matebeleland 197.155.236.110 ( talk) 16:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 25 October 2023. The result of the move review was no consensus resulting in a relist. |
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 12:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
Second Matabele War → First Chimurenga – The discussion of renaming this page has not been touched in 15 years, but since the Second Chimurenga/ Rhodesian Bush War page is having a similar discussion, I believe now is the time to revisit it. Per WP:COMMONNAME, here is a Google Ngram for a few common names for the conflict.
While "Second Matabele War" is certainly the oldest common name for the war, it has clearly not been the common term in over 40 years. I suggest using the term Chimurenga as it appears to be the most common, and I suggest First Chimurenga as the article title as it is both common and unambiguous.
Chimurenga is also more accurate, referring to the conflicts fought by both the "Matabele" ( Northern Ndebele people) in the north and "Mashona" ( Shona people) in the south. While the article includes a section on both conflicts, the article title only refers to the former. Sophie ( talk) 21:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 06:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Second Matabele War article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 8 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to First Chimurenga. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
"According to the Ndebele, the Zimbabwe government has tried to misappropriate this history after Zimbabwe's independence by trying to rename it the First Chimurenga. In fact, the word 'Chimurenga' is a word applied by the Zimbabwe government retrospectively to facts that do not bear it out either in name or numbering. The first anti-colonial war is the First Matebele War of 1893 to 1894, called in isiNdebele "Imfazwe", so even misappropriating Umvukela as a 'chimurenga' it would not be the first but the second. Both Imfazwe and Umvukela wars are known internationally as the two Matebele Wars; there is no reference to 'Chimurenga' in those historical accounts. And both wars pitted Ndebele warriors against BSAC forces and Shona people conscripted into the BSAC force."
I am sure the title of this article is as contentious as Second Chimurenga/ Rhodesian Bush War and the arguments for the current title and those for First Chimurenga are similar. However, an added problem of the title Second Matabele War is that it provides no scope for discussion of the events in Mashonaland, which were intimately linked, for example by the work of the medium Mukwati. So, as expected, I favour First Chimurenga. Babakathy ( talk) 16:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
For the Ndebele a staggering 50,000 are estimated. I would say this qualifies as "citation needed".-- 134.93.178.88 ( talk) 13:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
The image File:British South Africa Police.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 21:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
I believe that Mlimo is a title not an individuals name and that there were at least two during this war.
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Second Matabele War/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
The name "Mlimo" is incorrect, as Mlimo is the shona/ndebele word for Creator or GOD. The man assasinated by Burnham was called Mukwati, this is easily researched in ZIMBABWEAN history books (even thoughs written by Europeans, which seem to bare more importance on this site). It is misleading and offensive to quote old out-of-date text that refer to a "Phophet" as "GOD". If this was a "Allah v Mohammed" or a "Jehovah v St Paul" situation, wiki would have by now sorted the problem, however, whenever Zimbabwean Historians try and correct the wiki text, its quickly reverted to the incorrect European version. Can this be changed??? |
Last edited at 01:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 05:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Why did he supported the invasion of matebeleland 197.155.236.110 ( talk) 16:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 25 October 2023. The result of the move review was no consensus resulting in a relist. |
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 12:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
Second Matabele War → First Chimurenga – The discussion of renaming this page has not been touched in 15 years, but since the Second Chimurenga/ Rhodesian Bush War page is having a similar discussion, I believe now is the time to revisit it. Per WP:COMMONNAME, here is a Google Ngram for a few common names for the conflict.
While "Second Matabele War" is certainly the oldest common name for the war, it has clearly not been the common term in over 40 years. I suggest using the term Chimurenga as it appears to be the most common, and I suggest First Chimurenga as the article title as it is both common and unambiguous.
Chimurenga is also more accurate, referring to the conflicts fought by both the "Matabele" ( Northern Ndebele people) in the north and "Mashona" ( Shona people) in the south. While the article includes a section on both conflicts, the article title only refers to the former. Sophie ( talk) 21:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 06:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)