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"The French made a very gallant resistance, and the fine quality of their ships enabled them to counteract to some extent the superior numbers of the British."
When that is said it implies that the quality of British crews and ships was inferior. That was quite simply not the case.
I think it's quite reasonable to challenge some of these assumptions of what makes an engagement 'Decisive', as Moagim ( talk · contribs) has been doing a lot. But this piecemeal approach to just the infobox result doesn't really help anyone. It still states in the text that it was a 'decisive victory'. Given that the sources are the best way to go to avoid OR, we should look at what they say. We would be equally guilty of OR if we assumed based on our own opinion that the result wasn't decisive when the sources say that it was.
The current source used, Black's Military History of Britain, makes a number of claims to justify the 'Decisive' tag. '...won the most brilliant action of the war...', 'Six of the French ships were forced to surrender and the French also lost 4,000 sailors, a crucial limitation of their maritime strength.' '"All difficulties that could be apprehended in Parliament will by this be removed, the pride of France a little humbled, and I hope our allies so far encouraged, that your Royal Highness will find them willing and able to exert themselves for our own safety and support". The Duke was also confident that victory would also disappoint Jacobite hopes of a possible invasion. The French fleet could no longer escort major convoys bound for French colonies, and this destroyed the logic of the French imperial system.' and 'Victory transformed the invasion threats of 1744-5 and the danger of the loss of Cape Breton in 1746 into a completely political, strategic and diplomatic situation.' It all reads as a pretty significant outcome, though it perhaps lacks the ideal pairing of 'decisive' and 'victory' for User:Moagim if summaries like 'nothing on the source stat such a thing' is anything to go by.
Sources which do state that Finisterre was a "decisive victory":
And many other sources which state the importance in the same vein as Black, in that essentially it lifted the threat of invasion and isolated France from its colonies, while ensuring British control of the seas. So if you want it explicitly stated, there it is. Benea ( talk) 15:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
B class. Nice work. Please note that the Willis 2009 citation does not point to any reference. Since the material was already cited by another reference, I removed the Willis ref. I looked up Sam Willis books on Amazon.com and did not see any published in 2009 or any with 761 pages. If you can find the correct Willis ref, feel free to add it back in. Djmaschek ( talk) 05:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Nick-D ( talk · contribs) 05:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
I have to confess to being totally ignorant of this war, though I am a nerd for Napoleonic-era naval warfare thanks to the Aubrey–Maturin series of novels. I'd like to offer the following comments:
Nick-D ( talk) 11:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC) Nick-D ( talk) 05:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
@ Gog the Mild: I think Hawke had more out of line ships than the one I've managed to cite. Clowes mentions "and some frigates" in his list, but does not name them (Clowes vol. 3, p. 127), but I believe that Richmond (The Navy in the War of 1739-48 vol. 3) lists more vessels, including Weazel, Vulcan, and Dolphin. I can't find any way of accessing that source, however. Perhaps you'll be able to do better than me..! Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 20:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Second Battle of Cape Finisterre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Second Battle of Cape Finisterre is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 25, 2022. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"The French made a very gallant resistance, and the fine quality of their ships enabled them to counteract to some extent the superior numbers of the British."
When that is said it implies that the quality of British crews and ships was inferior. That was quite simply not the case.
I think it's quite reasonable to challenge some of these assumptions of what makes an engagement 'Decisive', as Moagim ( talk · contribs) has been doing a lot. But this piecemeal approach to just the infobox result doesn't really help anyone. It still states in the text that it was a 'decisive victory'. Given that the sources are the best way to go to avoid OR, we should look at what they say. We would be equally guilty of OR if we assumed based on our own opinion that the result wasn't decisive when the sources say that it was.
The current source used, Black's Military History of Britain, makes a number of claims to justify the 'Decisive' tag. '...won the most brilliant action of the war...', 'Six of the French ships were forced to surrender and the French also lost 4,000 sailors, a crucial limitation of their maritime strength.' '"All difficulties that could be apprehended in Parliament will by this be removed, the pride of France a little humbled, and I hope our allies so far encouraged, that your Royal Highness will find them willing and able to exert themselves for our own safety and support". The Duke was also confident that victory would also disappoint Jacobite hopes of a possible invasion. The French fleet could no longer escort major convoys bound for French colonies, and this destroyed the logic of the French imperial system.' and 'Victory transformed the invasion threats of 1744-5 and the danger of the loss of Cape Breton in 1746 into a completely political, strategic and diplomatic situation.' It all reads as a pretty significant outcome, though it perhaps lacks the ideal pairing of 'decisive' and 'victory' for User:Moagim if summaries like 'nothing on the source stat such a thing' is anything to go by.
Sources which do state that Finisterre was a "decisive victory":
And many other sources which state the importance in the same vein as Black, in that essentially it lifted the threat of invasion and isolated France from its colonies, while ensuring British control of the seas. So if you want it explicitly stated, there it is. Benea ( talk) 15:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
B class. Nice work. Please note that the Willis 2009 citation does not point to any reference. Since the material was already cited by another reference, I removed the Willis ref. I looked up Sam Willis books on Amazon.com and did not see any published in 2009 or any with 761 pages. If you can find the correct Willis ref, feel free to add it back in. Djmaschek ( talk) 05:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Nick-D ( talk · contribs) 05:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
I have to confess to being totally ignorant of this war, though I am a nerd for Napoleonic-era naval warfare thanks to the Aubrey–Maturin series of novels. I'd like to offer the following comments:
Nick-D ( talk) 11:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC) Nick-D ( talk) 05:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
@ Gog the Mild: I think Hawke had more out of line ships than the one I've managed to cite. Clowes mentions "and some frigates" in his list, but does not name them (Clowes vol. 3, p. 127), but I believe that Richmond (The Navy in the War of 1739-48 vol. 3) lists more vessels, including Weazel, Vulcan, and Dolphin. I can't find any way of accessing that source, however. Perhaps you'll be able to do better than me..! Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 20:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)