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The article contains the question, in the list of points of question/"modern interpretations" regarding the text of the amendment, "What does 'shall not be infringed' mean?"
Wait, what?
This seems about on par with questioning wether or not 2 plus 2 does in fact equal 4.
I mean, yeah, NPoV and whatever, but the question, quite honestly, seems very stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeroofTime55 ( talk • contribs) 17:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The entire argument, legal or otherwise is pointless. The Second Amendment, like the first, is very very clear. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Any court case interpreting the second amendment to mean anything other than a right of the citizenry to own weapons for their personal use is irrelevant, as nowhere in the Constitution is the SCOTUS empowered to rule on the Constitution, and certainly neither are the federal courts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.243.37.23 ( talk) 17:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The amendment only states that the people shall not have its right infringed, not the individual. Furthermore, the vast majority of legal precedent has interpreted the militia clause to be a qualifying clause, so that the second amendment is only applicable under such conditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.118.1 ( talk) 21:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
NPOV of the lead was broken in an earlier edit which inserted "Congress from". This implies that non-incorporation is a settled matter, which is non-neutral with regards to opinion of the 2A. If someone has a citation that establishes non-incorporation is the only valid view, please reference it. - Hoplon 03:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Speaker; that the scope and meaning of the limitations imposed by the first section, fourteenth amendment of the Constitution may be more fully understood, permit me to say that the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, as contra distinguished from citizens of a State, are chiefly defined in the first eight amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
See also: "Reconstruction: Americas's Unfinished Revolution by Eric Foner". Arthur 05:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
First, please avoid the ad hominem arguments. Second, please stop ignoring and evading my requests for citations from reliable secondary sources, short direct quotations would be helpful, or even page numbers (I am willing to read books in the library if needed).
Also, could we focus and agree on what is being discussed here. I added the POV tag. The long standing April, 2007 consensus lede has recently reverted [1] by Hoplon without discussion. The issue that lead to the April 2007 consensus, was that the present state of implementation of the 2A only limits the Federal Congress. That core issue remains the same.
For instance, among the hundreds (if not thousands) of relevant state and local laws, there is not one non Federal law that has been struck down by the SCOTUS on 2A constitutional grounds. To suggest otherwise is a 'flat earth argument' that does not carry weight in a NPOV balance calculation.
In essence the argument presented by Arthurrh (and others) above is that there is scholarly attention to theories where the 2A can be brought to limit state and local laws, at some time in the future. Sorry, speculating on the future is inappropriate in the lede sentence. (Though I accept that those theories deserve coverage in the body of the article.) SaltyBoatr 16:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose this text as a neutral worded lede paragraph:
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits federal government from infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
Comments? SaltyBoatr 16:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
"Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." is a much more neutrally-worded lede paragraph, for it avoids the POV that the 2A only prohibits infringement by the Federal Government. After all, the Parker case is wholly predicated on the view that the 2A even prohibits cities from infringement of the 2A. It would be best not to push either POV in the lede, but to have the wording simply state that the 2A prohibits infringement, with details contained in the body of the article. Yaf 06:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
No, the issue is how to determine the neutral balance point per WP:WEIGHT. You evade my requests that you show a reliable secondary source for your POV that the 2A limits the States. (Indeed, it does not, except in wishful thinking of those pushing a non-RS fringe POV.) Without a published reliable source, per WP policy, your POV cannot be weighed in the balance calculation. SaltyBoatr 19:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you have evaded my request to specifically cite your sourcing. Pointing to entire books is not good enough to allow me to verify your cite. SaltyBoatr 21:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
For convenience a new section. Feel free to add sources. Arthur 20:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
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help)Thanks for the start. This will take a bit of time to verify. 1, 2, 3, 4 & 6 are to vague to be satisfactory without page numbers. Please cite page numbers. Also, your link to the 1982 Senate report points only to an abridged copy, could you help find a full copy? #3 appears to be a primary source, not allowed per WP:V. SaltyBoatr 20:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I doubt you have read the entire #1, as the version in your link is abridged. And, please cite specifics. SaltyBoatr 21:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding #5 at page 1218 does not claim your POV to be true. All it describes is one line of reasoning about how the SCOTUS might analyze the 14A at some point in the future, and this is irrelevant because Wikipedia is not about predicting the future. Also, your "SAF" link appear it may have been abridged. Is it a true copy? SaltyBoatr 21:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, please provide the missing page numbers. Thanks. SaltyBoatr 21:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you please identify the publisher for #8? It appears to be a website document without reliable publication process. Also, which specific passage are you citing? I see (at slightly past halfway) in #8 the statement: "The Second Amendment...declares that it shall not be infringed by Congress" which strongly supports my POV and undercuts your POV. What? SaltyBoatr 21:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #9 (memorandum, in case the numbers change): "The Second Amendment secures a right of individuals generally, not a right of States or a right restricted to persons serving in militias." (introduction) and "This history indicates that it was widely recognized that the right to keep and bear arms was to be protected by the Civil Rights Act and the Fourteenth Amendment, and that that right was understood to belong to individuals." (p. 100) Arthur 23:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #10 (Snyder): "the right . . . to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings concerning personal liberty, personal security, . . . including the constitutional right to bear arms, shall be enjoyed by all the citizens of such State or district without respect to race or color or previous conditions of slavery." Later, in introducing the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Jacob Howard explained that its purpose was to protect "personal rights," including "the right to keep and bear arms" from state infringement." (in section "Relevance of the Constitution") Arthur 00:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #11 (Adamson): Hugh Black wrote in dissent "I would follow what I believe was the original purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment- to extend to all of the people of the nation the complete protection of the Bill of Rights." Arthur 00:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #2 (curtis): "The strongest of these positions is of course that of full association (or "incorporation" as it is called). from the Foreword p. vix, and "A reasonable reader might conclude that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to change things so that states could no longer violate rights in the federal Bill of Rights. The reader might think this was what was intended by the language, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." I believe that reader would be right". p2 and "Among scholars who have studied the historical sources in detail, opinion is more divided. Most of this group seem to agree that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to apply the Bill of Rights--or at least most of them--to the states." p. 2,3 (italics from original) and "In Adamson Justice Black argued that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to overrule earlier Supreme Court decisions and to make the first eight amendments to the Constitution a limitation on the states." p. 5 and "Although scholars often accept most of Fairman's negative conclusions, many refuse to accept his argument that a selective incorporation was intended." p.6 and "Republicans accepted the following tenets of antislavery constitutional thought. First, after the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment abolishing slavery, blacks were citizens of the United States. Republicans held this view even though the Dred Scott decision was to the contrary. Second, the guaranties of the Bill of Rights applied to the states even prior to the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment." p.7 and "Statements made about the equivalence of the bill and the amendment are consistent with application of the Bill of Rights to the states." p8 and "Crosskey insisted that the amendment should be understood in light of "old Republican" constitutional ideas. These included a reading of the privileges and immunities clause of article IV, section 2 to mean that the citizens of each state would be entitled to all rights of citizens of the United States in every state"..."finally, a belief that the guaranties of the Bill of Rights were limits on the states even prior to the framing of the Fourteenth Amendment." p.8 (emphasis added) and "When they passed the Freedman's Bureau bill, they provided that blacks should have, among other things, "full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and estate, including the constitutional right of bearing arms."" p.72 (italics in original) and from Senator Howard who "presented the amendment on behalf of the committee" ... "Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of in the section section of the fourth article of the Constitution. To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be--for the are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature--to these should be added the personal rights guarantied and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution" p.88 and "The weight of the evidence from the Thirty-ninth Congress supports the conclusion that the Fourteenth Amendment was designed to require the states to respect all the guaranties of the Bill of Rights." p.129 and "Most Republicans believed that the states were already required to obey the Bill of Rights. They did not accept the 'positivist' notion that the Constitution was merely what the Supreme Court of the moment said it was." p.130 and by Senator Yates, a close ally of Lincoln "All persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States where they reside. And then it goes on to provide that their rights shall not be abridged by any State." p.226 and "In Adamson Black argued taht the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to overrule earlier Supreme Court decisions and to make the first eight amendments to the Constitution a limitation on the states." p.201 Arthur 00:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From a source in the 2a article: "Rather than search for a single meaning for the right to bear arms it makes more sense to recognize that this right could be interpreted in radically different ways by spokesmen for different groups within American society." Cornell, Saul (2001).
"Constitutional History After the New Cultural History: A New Paradigm for the Second Amendment". {{
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Arthur
20:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, I'm not proposing that we interpret it in a particular way, I'm merely supporting the assertion that there is a legitimate difference of opinion, which you seem to have disputed above. Cornell's statement seems reasonable to me, I think that the intro needs to be broad enough to incorporate the basic POV's as plausibly correct. Arthur 22:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
My personal POV is not relevant to the discussion. My POV is that there are several different interpretations of the 2A and the 14A. My POV is that the article should discuss these interpretations in a NPOV way, which means that the intro should not pre-suppose the accuracy/validity/truth of any particular POV. Arthur 23:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Considering that some editors feel it important to address the issue of incorporation, or lack of incorporation in the lede, I suggest this wording for comments. SaltyBoatr 17:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits federal government from infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." The Fourteenth Amendment has not been interpreted by the Court to cause the Second Amendment to bear on prohibiting the individual States from infringement, but some scholars argue that the Court should do so.
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." There is currently a difference of opinion over who is prohibited from infringement, whether it's Congress or Congress and the States. In addition there is controversy whether the right is an individual or a collective right. There are various interpretations of the meaning of the militia clause, and there is ambiguity over what is infringement and whether any regulation constitutes infringement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurrh ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the
United States Constitution’s
Bill of Rights declares a well-regulated militia as "being necessary to the security
of a free State" and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and
bear arms." One key controversy revolves around who is prohibited from infringing upon
this right: the dominant view is that the Second Amendment is limited to federal
jurisdiction, but some contend that it extends to state jurisdiction.
Another major point of contention is whether it is an individual or collective right: the prevailing view and court precedence favor the "collective" interpretation, but the "individual" interpretation is supported by recent court cases such as United States v. Emerson and Parker v. District of Columbia.
Other points of disagreement include the meaning of the militia clause and the meaning of infringement (does any regulation at all constitute infringement, or is reasonable regulation allowable).
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For those unfamiliar with the relevant constitutional text, the Second Amendment says, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”233 On their face, these twenty-seven words are less than crystal clear. What is the “Militia” and how is it to be “well regulated”? Who are the beneficiaries of this provision—the states, that need a level of security to remain free, or the people, whoever they may be? What exactly is meant by the term “keep and bear arms”? And what would constitute a full-fledged infringement on this right rather than, for instance, a reasonable limitation?
Again, this Erik Luna essay contains thoughts of what the 2A should be and downplays what the 2A objectively is, today. It is fair to summarize the range of 2A POVs as falling broadly into two camps, 'anti gun regulation' and 'pro gun regulation'. These two major POVs must be balanced per policy of WP:NPOV. Downplaying the reality that the 2A presently imposes no restrictions on gun regulations by the States, and just a degree of restriction on the federal, does not strike the proper POV balance. The mixing of what 'should be' with the reality of what 'is' has the effect of improperly skewing the POV balance towards 'anti gun regulation'. SaltyBoatr 21:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest this simplest form:
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits Congress from infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
This says it well, and neutrally. It accommodates the POV that the 2A prohibits only the Congress, while falling short of exactly saying the 2A only prohibits the Congress. Yet, it does not say that the States are not also prohibited, therefore it walks the middle line between the two POV's. SaltyBoatr 15:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Granted. Still, the issue is the weight calculation of the various POV's to establish neutrality. You are not convinced that a significant opposing POV should be included in the lede, yet WP:NPOV requires that significant POV's must be included. What you want appears at odds with WP:NPOV SaltyBoatr 19:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I want both these POVs included: The lede section should mention 1) That reasonable militia and firearm regulation is allowed, at both the state and the federal levels. And 2) That the entire Bill of Rights up until the Reconstruction affected only the federal. After Reconstruction, and the 14A, the Bill of Rights was gradually incorporated to pertain to the States, but that the 2A has never been incorporated. I accept that the contrary POV's should be included too. SaltyBoatr 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no possible way to deconstruct the second amendment as written without introducing somebody's POV.
The 'unusual' construction of the one sentence Second Amendment reflects the debate as it existed among the Framers in the day.
From what I have read, the framers created this ambiguity on purpose. They were not grammatically incompetent -- this sentence was written the way it was knowing that it would be left to We The People to figure out what this means.
Breaking it into two separate ideas right up front reflects the POV of those who believe this amendment was unambiguously intended to confer unrestricted rights on individuals.
So...I'd like to propose that the article begin not with the "two sentence interpretation", but with the actual text as written.
riverguy42 19:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
The article contains the question, in the list of points of question/"modern interpretations" regarding the text of the amendment, "What does 'shall not be infringed' mean?"
Wait, what?
This seems about on par with questioning wether or not 2 plus 2 does in fact equal 4.
I mean, yeah, NPoV and whatever, but the question, quite honestly, seems very stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeroofTime55 ( talk • contribs) 17:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The entire argument, legal or otherwise is pointless. The Second Amendment, like the first, is very very clear. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Any court case interpreting the second amendment to mean anything other than a right of the citizenry to own weapons for their personal use is irrelevant, as nowhere in the Constitution is the SCOTUS empowered to rule on the Constitution, and certainly neither are the federal courts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.243.37.23 ( talk) 17:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The amendment only states that the people shall not have its right infringed, not the individual. Furthermore, the vast majority of legal precedent has interpreted the militia clause to be a qualifying clause, so that the second amendment is only applicable under such conditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.118.1 ( talk) 21:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
NPOV of the lead was broken in an earlier edit which inserted "Congress from". This implies that non-incorporation is a settled matter, which is non-neutral with regards to opinion of the 2A. If someone has a citation that establishes non-incorporation is the only valid view, please reference it. - Hoplon 03:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Speaker; that the scope and meaning of the limitations imposed by the first section, fourteenth amendment of the Constitution may be more fully understood, permit me to say that the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, as contra distinguished from citizens of a State, are chiefly defined in the first eight amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
See also: "Reconstruction: Americas's Unfinished Revolution by Eric Foner". Arthur 05:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
First, please avoid the ad hominem arguments. Second, please stop ignoring and evading my requests for citations from reliable secondary sources, short direct quotations would be helpful, or even page numbers (I am willing to read books in the library if needed).
Also, could we focus and agree on what is being discussed here. I added the POV tag. The long standing April, 2007 consensus lede has recently reverted [1] by Hoplon without discussion. The issue that lead to the April 2007 consensus, was that the present state of implementation of the 2A only limits the Federal Congress. That core issue remains the same.
For instance, among the hundreds (if not thousands) of relevant state and local laws, there is not one non Federal law that has been struck down by the SCOTUS on 2A constitutional grounds. To suggest otherwise is a 'flat earth argument' that does not carry weight in a NPOV balance calculation.
In essence the argument presented by Arthurrh (and others) above is that there is scholarly attention to theories where the 2A can be brought to limit state and local laws, at some time in the future. Sorry, speculating on the future is inappropriate in the lede sentence. (Though I accept that those theories deserve coverage in the body of the article.) SaltyBoatr 16:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose this text as a neutral worded lede paragraph:
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits federal government from infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
Comments? SaltyBoatr 16:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
"Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." is a much more neutrally-worded lede paragraph, for it avoids the POV that the 2A only prohibits infringement by the Federal Government. After all, the Parker case is wholly predicated on the view that the 2A even prohibits cities from infringement of the 2A. It would be best not to push either POV in the lede, but to have the wording simply state that the 2A prohibits infringement, with details contained in the body of the article. Yaf 06:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
No, the issue is how to determine the neutral balance point per WP:WEIGHT. You evade my requests that you show a reliable secondary source for your POV that the 2A limits the States. (Indeed, it does not, except in wishful thinking of those pushing a non-RS fringe POV.) Without a published reliable source, per WP policy, your POV cannot be weighed in the balance calculation. SaltyBoatr 19:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you have evaded my request to specifically cite your sourcing. Pointing to entire books is not good enough to allow me to verify your cite. SaltyBoatr 21:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
For convenience a new section. Feel free to add sources. Arthur 20:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
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(
help)Thanks for the start. This will take a bit of time to verify. 1, 2, 3, 4 & 6 are to vague to be satisfactory without page numbers. Please cite page numbers. Also, your link to the 1982 Senate report points only to an abridged copy, could you help find a full copy? #3 appears to be a primary source, not allowed per WP:V. SaltyBoatr 20:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I doubt you have read the entire #1, as the version in your link is abridged. And, please cite specifics. SaltyBoatr 21:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding #5 at page 1218 does not claim your POV to be true. All it describes is one line of reasoning about how the SCOTUS might analyze the 14A at some point in the future, and this is irrelevant because Wikipedia is not about predicting the future. Also, your "SAF" link appear it may have been abridged. Is it a true copy? SaltyBoatr 21:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, please provide the missing page numbers. Thanks. SaltyBoatr 21:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you please identify the publisher for #8? It appears to be a website document without reliable publication process. Also, which specific passage are you citing? I see (at slightly past halfway) in #8 the statement: "The Second Amendment...declares that it shall not be infringed by Congress" which strongly supports my POV and undercuts your POV. What? SaltyBoatr 21:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #9 (memorandum, in case the numbers change): "The Second Amendment secures a right of individuals generally, not a right of States or a right restricted to persons serving in militias." (introduction) and "This history indicates that it was widely recognized that the right to keep and bear arms was to be protected by the Civil Rights Act and the Fourteenth Amendment, and that that right was understood to belong to individuals." (p. 100) Arthur 23:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #10 (Snyder): "the right . . . to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings concerning personal liberty, personal security, . . . including the constitutional right to bear arms, shall be enjoyed by all the citizens of such State or district without respect to race or color or previous conditions of slavery." Later, in introducing the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Jacob Howard explained that its purpose was to protect "personal rights," including "the right to keep and bear arms" from state infringement." (in section "Relevance of the Constitution") Arthur 00:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #11 (Adamson): Hugh Black wrote in dissent "I would follow what I believe was the original purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment- to extend to all of the people of the nation the complete protection of the Bill of Rights." Arthur 00:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From source #2 (curtis): "The strongest of these positions is of course that of full association (or "incorporation" as it is called). from the Foreword p. vix, and "A reasonable reader might conclude that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to change things so that states could no longer violate rights in the federal Bill of Rights. The reader might think this was what was intended by the language, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." I believe that reader would be right". p2 and "Among scholars who have studied the historical sources in detail, opinion is more divided. Most of this group seem to agree that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to apply the Bill of Rights--or at least most of them--to the states." p. 2,3 (italics from original) and "In Adamson Justice Black argued that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to overrule earlier Supreme Court decisions and to make the first eight amendments to the Constitution a limitation on the states." p. 5 and "Although scholars often accept most of Fairman's negative conclusions, many refuse to accept his argument that a selective incorporation was intended." p.6 and "Republicans accepted the following tenets of antislavery constitutional thought. First, after the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment abolishing slavery, blacks were citizens of the United States. Republicans held this view even though the Dred Scott decision was to the contrary. Second, the guaranties of the Bill of Rights applied to the states even prior to the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment." p.7 and "Statements made about the equivalence of the bill and the amendment are consistent with application of the Bill of Rights to the states." p8 and "Crosskey insisted that the amendment should be understood in light of "old Republican" constitutional ideas. These included a reading of the privileges and immunities clause of article IV, section 2 to mean that the citizens of each state would be entitled to all rights of citizens of the United States in every state"..."finally, a belief that the guaranties of the Bill of Rights were limits on the states even prior to the framing of the Fourteenth Amendment." p.8 (emphasis added) and "When they passed the Freedman's Bureau bill, they provided that blacks should have, among other things, "full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and estate, including the constitutional right of bearing arms."" p.72 (italics in original) and from Senator Howard who "presented the amendment on behalf of the committee" ... "Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of in the section section of the fourth article of the Constitution. To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be--for the are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature--to these should be added the personal rights guarantied and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution" p.88 and "The weight of the evidence from the Thirty-ninth Congress supports the conclusion that the Fourteenth Amendment was designed to require the states to respect all the guaranties of the Bill of Rights." p.129 and "Most Republicans believed that the states were already required to obey the Bill of Rights. They did not accept the 'positivist' notion that the Constitution was merely what the Supreme Court of the moment said it was." p.130 and by Senator Yates, a close ally of Lincoln "All persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States where they reside. And then it goes on to provide that their rights shall not be abridged by any State." p.226 and "In Adamson Black argued taht the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to overrule earlier Supreme Court decisions and to make the first eight amendments to the Constitution a limitation on the states." p.201 Arthur 00:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From a source in the 2a article: "Rather than search for a single meaning for the right to bear arms it makes more sense to recognize that this right could be interpreted in radically different ways by spokesmen for different groups within American society." Cornell, Saul (2001).
"Constitutional History After the New Cultural History: A New Paradigm for the Second Amendment". {{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)
Arthur
20:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, I'm not proposing that we interpret it in a particular way, I'm merely supporting the assertion that there is a legitimate difference of opinion, which you seem to have disputed above. Cornell's statement seems reasonable to me, I think that the intro needs to be broad enough to incorporate the basic POV's as plausibly correct. Arthur 22:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
My personal POV is not relevant to the discussion. My POV is that there are several different interpretations of the 2A and the 14A. My POV is that the article should discuss these interpretations in a NPOV way, which means that the intro should not pre-suppose the accuracy/validity/truth of any particular POV. Arthur 23:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Considering that some editors feel it important to address the issue of incorporation, or lack of incorporation in the lede, I suggest this wording for comments. SaltyBoatr 17:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits federal government from infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." The Fourteenth Amendment has not been interpreted by the Court to cause the Second Amendment to bear on prohibiting the individual States from infringement, but some scholars argue that the Court should do so.
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." There is currently a difference of opinion over who is prohibited from infringement, whether it's Congress or Congress and the States. In addition there is controversy whether the right is an individual or a collective right. There are various interpretations of the meaning of the militia clause, and there is ambiguity over what is infringement and whether any regulation constitutes infringement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurrh ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the
United States Constitution’s
Bill of Rights declares a well-regulated militia as "being necessary to the security
of a free State" and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and
bear arms." One key controversy revolves around who is prohibited from infringing upon
this right: the dominant view is that the Second Amendment is limited to federal
jurisdiction, but some contend that it extends to state jurisdiction.
Another major point of contention is whether it is an individual or collective right: the prevailing view and court precedence favor the "collective" interpretation, but the "individual" interpretation is supported by recent court cases such as United States v. Emerson and Parker v. District of Columbia.
Other points of disagreement include the meaning of the militia clause and the meaning of infringement (does any regulation at all constitute infringement, or is reasonable regulation allowable).
{{
cite journal}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help){{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
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For those unfamiliar with the relevant constitutional text, the Second Amendment says, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”233 On their face, these twenty-seven words are less than crystal clear. What is the “Militia” and how is it to be “well regulated”? Who are the beneficiaries of this provision—the states, that need a level of security to remain free, or the people, whoever they may be? What exactly is meant by the term “keep and bear arms”? And what would constitute a full-fledged infringement on this right rather than, for instance, a reasonable limitation?
Again, this Erik Luna essay contains thoughts of what the 2A should be and downplays what the 2A objectively is, today. It is fair to summarize the range of 2A POVs as falling broadly into two camps, 'anti gun regulation' and 'pro gun regulation'. These two major POVs must be balanced per policy of WP:NPOV. Downplaying the reality that the 2A presently imposes no restrictions on gun regulations by the States, and just a degree of restriction on the federal, does not strike the proper POV balance. The mixing of what 'should be' with the reality of what 'is' has the effect of improperly skewing the POV balance towards 'anti gun regulation'. SaltyBoatr 21:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest this simplest form:
Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares a well regulated militia as "being necessary to the security of a free State", and prohibits Congress from infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
This says it well, and neutrally. It accommodates the POV that the 2A prohibits only the Congress, while falling short of exactly saying the 2A only prohibits the Congress. Yet, it does not say that the States are not also prohibited, therefore it walks the middle line between the two POV's. SaltyBoatr 15:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Granted. Still, the issue is the weight calculation of the various POV's to establish neutrality. You are not convinced that a significant opposing POV should be included in the lede, yet WP:NPOV requires that significant POV's must be included. What you want appears at odds with WP:NPOV SaltyBoatr 19:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I want both these POVs included: The lede section should mention 1) That reasonable militia and firearm regulation is allowed, at both the state and the federal levels. And 2) That the entire Bill of Rights up until the Reconstruction affected only the federal. After Reconstruction, and the 14A, the Bill of Rights was gradually incorporated to pertain to the States, but that the 2A has never been incorporated. I accept that the contrary POV's should be included too. SaltyBoatr 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no possible way to deconstruct the second amendment as written without introducing somebody's POV.
The 'unusual' construction of the one sentence Second Amendment reflects the debate as it existed among the Framers in the day.
From what I have read, the framers created this ambiguity on purpose. They were not grammatically incompetent -- this sentence was written the way it was knowing that it would be left to We The People to figure out what this means.
Breaking it into two separate ideas right up front reflects the POV of those who believe this amendment was unambiguously intended to confer unrestricted rights on individuals.
So...I'd like to propose that the article begin not with the "two sentence interpretation", but with the actual text as written.
riverguy42 19:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)