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Aren't there numerous metal songs with the same name, but completely different lyrics (if any lyrics)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLxmPOWmlJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIngvpxwWy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDkRPN1qKhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyzmrRKFdis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVydh48h3yY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPmnykQXYHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snDaTXNOlYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJuHcYRho5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSeGXkvVrZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmLXxxx4e0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laBjQrF4GQY
Conner Fields 2600:8804:7500:15C0:3D3C:395B:F5B6:2B39 ( talk) 23:04, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Adding a new header comment under this discussion as I believe the previous comment chain devolved into a not so pretty tangent and I just wanted to provide a more attractive introduction, and perhaps, a fresh start, to this discussion. See discussion below between me and another editor regarding the previous state of this article.
As it stands, after the discussion with an editor below, the article has since been updated and includes the addition of a subsection under Covers for the Lana Del Rey cover. This is a change from before where there was no covers section in the article whatsoever, and instead, just a single, very verbose, Lana Del Rey section, and a change from my original edit which included no Del Rey subsection, but instead just had a Covers section for the article which included information about Del Rey's cover of the song.
I believe that in its current state, the section of the article appears to be unproblematic and all excess text regarding the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, has been removed. As I stated below, I think it is beyond clear that this cover meets the guidelines to be mentioned as a cover in this article about Season of the Witch, a song by the artist Donovan, but the sections previous representation in the article, seems very heavy and putting undue weight on this single cover in an article about the original Donovan song. ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 17:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Hey, I recently stumbled upon this article and made a revision where I removed a substantial chunk of text describing various details of a Lana Del Ray cover of the song. I did so after reading the style guide for songs and deciding that this cover did not seem notable enough to warrant such a degree of detail. If anyone has any serious thoughts regarding this edit and feels as though the Lana Del Ray section should exist in the article as it did before my edit, I would be very happy to hear them ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 01:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
So, another editor recently restored the entire Lana Del Rey section without joining the discussion here. I would implore anyone who has any feeling about this, to please, express them here. This section in particular has already been an issue of a content dispute between editors and it has been advised by admins to, 'Please use the talk page to decide what to do. See WP:DR if you can't reach agreement there. ' (Initial report from content dispute - contains quote from admin) ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 07:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
(outdent) I came across this article because the song cover was an orphaned fair use image. Since it is a notable cover version with reliable sources, it should have its own section. Per WP:BRD, I reverted back to the previous stable version. It was reverted based on this conversation, which is incorrect because this is an ongoing conversation with no consensus for the change. As such, I am reverting back to the last version before the BOLD edit per WP:BRD and it should stay that way until there is a consensus on the issue. Aspects ( talk) 23:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Just sharing some additional thoughts from my side of the room. The Lana Del Rey section seems problematic because it is giving undue weight to a single cover of a song in an article about the song, Season of the Witch, by Donovan. In addition, much of the sources cited and information detailed in the section, is related to the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, and not sources simply discussing the song itself. It seems like that perhaps a lot of this information regarding Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark that is being proposed to be included about in an article about the song, Season of the Witch, by Donovan, might fit better in the article for the film. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film) under a soundtrack section. ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 01:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Hiya! Huge Donavan fan here. By no means is this cover especially notable in the grand scheme of things compared to the original or other covers. I would consider having a conversation about her having her own section if, in the future, her song is mentioned and maintains notability outside of the release of the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.
But does an entire section for covers of her cover seems totally appropriate to me? No. I think a short craze due to a recent movie release (Scary Stories To Tell In The Dark) that may have caused some exposure to her song doesn't dictate that her cover should have such a large representation in the article for the original song. To steal attention from Donavan seems to me, to be a shame. I completely disagree with the previous version of her section in the article, and find that a sub section under the covers section like it is now, is appropriate. If anything Donavan needs some more content for this song, one of his greatest works of music. Mataytay ( talk) 01:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
So far there's been plenty of explanation about why the article shouldn't include the Lana stuff, and none of the replies have been focused on the real subject at hand or supplied reasoning to include the section. It's been a lot of talk about protocol and citing/cherry-picking guidelines like laws.
The Donovan song is widely known and very popular (it's been in hundreds of things), and Lana's cover by no means rivals that. This article misrepresents that fact, as the section about Lana's cover constituted a disproportionately large part of this article. This made no sense, because by being so long this section made the article more about Lana's cover, and not Donovan's song.
Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, the information given in the Lana section was entirely about its context in the film 'Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark' (2019). This section about Lana's cover is much better suited to reside in a Soundtrack section on the
Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film) film page. --
Kelseytron (
talk)
05:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
To anyone who's interested, I am working on a draft now for an inclusion of a Music section for Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film) which includes details about Del Rey's cover and the score. It is not done yet, and I will continue working on it, and once finished, I will bring it up on the talk page for Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film). I understand that my work on this draft has no bearing on the outcome of this discussion regarding content in this article, and I am just posting it here just in case any other editors have any thoughts about it or suggestions for improvements as the subject seems related. Best. Draft for Music Section for Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 23:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
References
See dissension above. There is a disagreement between editors, myself included, about a previously included Lana Del Rey section in the article and to what degree the information should be included in this article. Thoughts from other editors are appreciated.
Include
Don't Include
Include Revised Version
ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 07:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Include Revised Version - The current version, which includes a subsection within the Cover Version section and a mall table of its chart performance seemed to me a good compromise between dedicating a large chunk of an article about a Donovan song to a cover version that is much less known than the original version and only mentioning it in passing, without the context of its movie soundtrack origin and charts. PraiseVivec ( talk) 13:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Include Revised Version - I feel that the proposed addition of the Lana Del Rey section seen above puts undue weight on Lana Del Rey's cover and this is problematic for reason related to WP:RECENT and WP:PROPORTION. In addition, the proposed section addition contains factual errors and much of the cited material and text is related to the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. The current state of the article with the Del Rey cover having its own sub section under a Cover Versions section, seems like a good representation. ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 21:00, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The article currently states that the song was recorded AND released in September 1966. Yet the US album on which it appears was released August 26, 1966, according to the Sunshine_Superman_(album) article. So one or the other is wrong (if not both).
And it was extremely rare, in any event, for a song to be released in the month it was recorded in the 1960's, due to production schedules. Can this be made more accurate?
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 16:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I changed the date to August 26 based on the other Wikipedia article and many sources outside Wikipedia. A little update -- the album appeared on the Billboard top 200 album charts for only 2 weeks, starting in Mid-September (surprisingly low on the chart given that it included a #1 song). This is not proof of when the album was actually released, especially given its low peak. I would love to know the sources of the August 26 claims, which are prevalent on the internet. Although I am inclined to believe them, misstatements of facts have a way of getting repeated endlessly, and sometimes they can bounce between Wikipedia and sloppy reviewers, who are then used as reinforcement by Wikipedia editors. https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200/1966-09-24.
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 16:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Further update: This article dates the album release to August 26, 1966:
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/donovan-sunshine-superman-album/
but what are their sources?
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 17:00, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Hey, joining this discussion regarding the release date as someone appeared to have edited it back to being a September date. The article has a source in it pointing to an August release date, and as the member above mentioned, the article for this album presents the same release date. This of course doesn't mean August is right, both articles could be wrong. Still, as it stands, it looks like we have one citation citing an August release date, and zero citations citing a September release date, is that correct?
173.88.250.97 (
talk)
15:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
"Season of the Witch" should be the title of this article, not "Season of the Witch (song)", and other uses listed under "Season of the Witch (disambiguation)". Other uses are subsequent to Donovan's song, and most refer to it directly. Doug butler ( talk) 22:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Season of the Witch (song) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
Index
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Aren't there numerous metal songs with the same name, but completely different lyrics (if any lyrics)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLxmPOWmlJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIngvpxwWy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDkRPN1qKhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyzmrRKFdis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVydh48h3yY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPmnykQXYHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snDaTXNOlYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJuHcYRho5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSeGXkvVrZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmLXxxx4e0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laBjQrF4GQY
Conner Fields 2600:8804:7500:15C0:3D3C:395B:F5B6:2B39 ( talk) 23:04, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Adding a new header comment under this discussion as I believe the previous comment chain devolved into a not so pretty tangent and I just wanted to provide a more attractive introduction, and perhaps, a fresh start, to this discussion. See discussion below between me and another editor regarding the previous state of this article.
As it stands, after the discussion with an editor below, the article has since been updated and includes the addition of a subsection under Covers for the Lana Del Rey cover. This is a change from before where there was no covers section in the article whatsoever, and instead, just a single, very verbose, Lana Del Rey section, and a change from my original edit which included no Del Rey subsection, but instead just had a Covers section for the article which included information about Del Rey's cover of the song.
I believe that in its current state, the section of the article appears to be unproblematic and all excess text regarding the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, has been removed. As I stated below, I think it is beyond clear that this cover meets the guidelines to be mentioned as a cover in this article about Season of the Witch, a song by the artist Donovan, but the sections previous representation in the article, seems very heavy and putting undue weight on this single cover in an article about the original Donovan song. ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 17:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Hey, I recently stumbled upon this article and made a revision where I removed a substantial chunk of text describing various details of a Lana Del Ray cover of the song. I did so after reading the style guide for songs and deciding that this cover did not seem notable enough to warrant such a degree of detail. If anyone has any serious thoughts regarding this edit and feels as though the Lana Del Ray section should exist in the article as it did before my edit, I would be very happy to hear them ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 01:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
So, another editor recently restored the entire Lana Del Rey section without joining the discussion here. I would implore anyone who has any feeling about this, to please, express them here. This section in particular has already been an issue of a content dispute between editors and it has been advised by admins to, 'Please use the talk page to decide what to do. See WP:DR if you can't reach agreement there. ' (Initial report from content dispute - contains quote from admin) ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 07:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
(outdent) I came across this article because the song cover was an orphaned fair use image. Since it is a notable cover version with reliable sources, it should have its own section. Per WP:BRD, I reverted back to the previous stable version. It was reverted based on this conversation, which is incorrect because this is an ongoing conversation with no consensus for the change. As such, I am reverting back to the last version before the BOLD edit per WP:BRD and it should stay that way until there is a consensus on the issue. Aspects ( talk) 23:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Just sharing some additional thoughts from my side of the room. The Lana Del Rey section seems problematic because it is giving undue weight to a single cover of a song in an article about the song, Season of the Witch, by Donovan. In addition, much of the sources cited and information detailed in the section, is related to the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, and not sources simply discussing the song itself. It seems like that perhaps a lot of this information regarding Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark that is being proposed to be included about in an article about the song, Season of the Witch, by Donovan, might fit better in the article for the film. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film) under a soundtrack section. ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 01:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Hiya! Huge Donavan fan here. By no means is this cover especially notable in the grand scheme of things compared to the original or other covers. I would consider having a conversation about her having her own section if, in the future, her song is mentioned and maintains notability outside of the release of the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark.
But does an entire section for covers of her cover seems totally appropriate to me? No. I think a short craze due to a recent movie release (Scary Stories To Tell In The Dark) that may have caused some exposure to her song doesn't dictate that her cover should have such a large representation in the article for the original song. To steal attention from Donavan seems to me, to be a shame. I completely disagree with the previous version of her section in the article, and find that a sub section under the covers section like it is now, is appropriate. If anything Donavan needs some more content for this song, one of his greatest works of music. Mataytay ( talk) 01:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
So far there's been plenty of explanation about why the article shouldn't include the Lana stuff, and none of the replies have been focused on the real subject at hand or supplied reasoning to include the section. It's been a lot of talk about protocol and citing/cherry-picking guidelines like laws.
The Donovan song is widely known and very popular (it's been in hundreds of things), and Lana's cover by no means rivals that. This article misrepresents that fact, as the section about Lana's cover constituted a disproportionately large part of this article. This made no sense, because by being so long this section made the article more about Lana's cover, and not Donovan's song.
Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, the information given in the Lana section was entirely about its context in the film 'Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark' (2019). This section about Lana's cover is much better suited to reside in a Soundtrack section on the
Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film) film page. --
Kelseytron (
talk)
05:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
To anyone who's interested, I am working on a draft now for an inclusion of a Music section for Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film) which includes details about Del Rey's cover and the score. It is not done yet, and I will continue working on it, and once finished, I will bring it up on the talk page for Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark (film). I understand that my work on this draft has no bearing on the outcome of this discussion regarding content in this article, and I am just posting it here just in case any other editors have any thoughts about it or suggestions for improvements as the subject seems related. Best. Draft for Music Section for Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 23:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
References
See dissension above. There is a disagreement between editors, myself included, about a previously included Lana Del Rey section in the article and to what degree the information should be included in this article. Thoughts from other editors are appreciated.
Include
Don't Include
Include Revised Version
ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 07:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Include Revised Version - The current version, which includes a subsection within the Cover Version section and a mall table of its chart performance seemed to me a good compromise between dedicating a large chunk of an article about a Donovan song to a cover version that is much less known than the original version and only mentioning it in passing, without the context of its movie soundtrack origin and charts. PraiseVivec ( talk) 13:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Include Revised Version - I feel that the proposed addition of the Lana Del Rey section seen above puts undue weight on Lana Del Rey's cover and this is problematic for reason related to WP:RECENT and WP:PROPORTION. In addition, the proposed section addition contains factual errors and much of the cited material and text is related to the film, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. The current state of the article with the Del Rey cover having its own sub section under a Cover Versions section, seems like a good representation. ThereWillBeTime ( talk) 21:00, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The article currently states that the song was recorded AND released in September 1966. Yet the US album on which it appears was released August 26, 1966, according to the Sunshine_Superman_(album) article. So one or the other is wrong (if not both).
And it was extremely rare, in any event, for a song to be released in the month it was recorded in the 1960's, due to production schedules. Can this be made more accurate?
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 16:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I changed the date to August 26 based on the other Wikipedia article and many sources outside Wikipedia. A little update -- the album appeared on the Billboard top 200 album charts for only 2 weeks, starting in Mid-September (surprisingly low on the chart given that it included a #1 song). This is not proof of when the album was actually released, especially given its low peak. I would love to know the sources of the August 26 claims, which are prevalent on the internet. Although I am inclined to believe them, misstatements of facts have a way of getting repeated endlessly, and sometimes they can bounce between Wikipedia and sloppy reviewers, who are then used as reinforcement by Wikipedia editors. https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200/1966-09-24.
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 16:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Further update: This article dates the album release to August 26, 1966:
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/donovan-sunshine-superman-album/
but what are their sources?
Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 17:00, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Hey, joining this discussion regarding the release date as someone appeared to have edited it back to being a September date. The article has a source in it pointing to an August release date, and as the member above mentioned, the article for this album presents the same release date. This of course doesn't mean August is right, both articles could be wrong. Still, as it stands, it looks like we have one citation citing an August release date, and zero citations citing a September release date, is that correct?
173.88.250.97 (
talk)
15:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
"Season of the Witch" should be the title of this article, not "Season of the Witch (song)", and other uses listed under "Season of the Witch (disambiguation)". Other uses are subsequent to Donovan's song, and most refer to it directly. Doug butler ( talk) 22:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)