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I have to admit that I still really do wonder if the seal brown versus sooty thing is a distinction without a difference. The photos below are so open to interpretation, and absent DNA testing, I hate to deviate from standard interpretation unless the photo uploader clearly identified certain animals as tested.
Countercanter ( talk) 14:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Seal brown is a hair coat color of horses characterized by a near-black body color, black mane, tail and legs...// As opposed to liver chestnut?
Would you like me to include this distinction in the intro?
Is it common practice to put the quotation in the hidden comments?
this should not be confused with traditional buckskins
Agreed.
How does this differ from a bay? Also may need to mention that we start with a black base coat (E) here, do we not?
Yes, the MC1R/Extension gene is discussed in the beginning paragraph, and mentioned in the first part of the sentence. You mean I should try to tie the MC1R genotype to the black-pointed phenotype more clearly?
awkward style to keep citing these guys by name in the text, better just to footnote
Ok.
Some of this may be nice to put in the Sooty article?
Ok!
Countercanter ( talk) 12:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Also worth discussing -- the nature of the Agouti gene, and other genes, for that matter. Let's use human ASIP as an example, and we'll pretend it's horse ASIP. The horse ASIP is out there and I found it but I'm feeling like I'd rather not spend my Sunday morning on NCBI. And for argument's sake let's say that bay and wild bay are no different at agouti. I have no idea if they really are or are not, but we will treat both as "wildtype." It is 584 base pairs long:
And conceivably encodes the following amino acids:
A horse with this Agouti gene will be wildtype (bay/wild bay). Okay, more pretend. Let's pretend that in the 301 line, 11 base pairs are deleted. This is the a allele; an 11 bp deletion that breaks the Agouti gene.
Let's then pretend that on the 361 line, we change that first c into a t, and let's pretend that this is our At allele. The gene, and resultant protein, are altered but not completely broken.
I can feel that you are thinking that seal brown is bay+something, which I do not think is the best way to think of it. Buckskin is bay+something. Once again I've failed to really round out my thoughts on this, but maybe this is helpful.
[1] Here is the link to the equine ASIP gene. Not so beautifully fleshed out as the murine or human one but, there ya go. Countercanter ( talk) 13:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I have been informed that the category Brown horses is for users that don't know the difference between chestnut and bay. The category Bay horses currently holds every shade of bay, including dark bay i.e. "brown". I am confused as how are readers supposed to learn the difference when there are not any brown horse images displayed. AFIK all common breeds list brown as a colour. What are other equine editors thoughts? Cgoodwin ( talk) 03:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
"Liver chestnut // Not, has black in the mane and the hock; legs are light but it's a winter coat and probably mighty sunfaded, looking at that horse it looks like it's been out the whole time :) ( Pitke ( talk))"
I'd like to point out that the horse has black mane. Whatever his legs might look like, he can't be chestnut AND have black hair since the genetics of E and A genes. The horse obviously has a long winter coat and might also be a wildtype bay as far as we could know. My bottom line is, we can't be sure of the horses colour, and if we can't decide on this, I suggest we select another clearly, agreeably liver chestnut that looks dark enough to fill the part of this picture. As a matter of fact I suggest it in any case as this particular animal is so confusing. I aknowledge that the mane MIGHT be just a REALLY dark chocolate brown (though it looks black to me every time), but without DNA test results, we cannot ever be sure. Pitke ( talk) 12:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
In more than 40 years of training, exhibiting and breeding, I have noted that in true seal brown horses, and also in many duns/buckskins, and grullas, generally only minimal white markings are seen. I have often wondered about whether a genetic suppression of the (latent) white markings may be at work.
For example, when one looks at all the pictures of true seal browns, and reviews all the true seal browns one has known, when any white markings are present, they are generally a small star, perhaps a small snip, and one or two coronets. I do not recall any significant blazes, socks, or stockings.
Buckskins, grullas and duns also tend to show this suppression of white markings.
By the way, this seems to hold across breeds: for example, we see many seal browns in Thoroughbreds; and the white markings are few. The duns/buckskins and grullas, of course, are grounded in the Quarter Horse (with origins in the Spanish horse (and the Mustang) and further back into the primitive breeds, especially Przewalski's and the Tarpan. But here as well, we see few white markings.
I'm hoping that folks out there, with a genetics/horse breeding background, can add some good science/DNA research to all these years of observations. I will look forward to your input! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pihamilton ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
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I have to admit that I still really do wonder if the seal brown versus sooty thing is a distinction without a difference. The photos below are so open to interpretation, and absent DNA testing, I hate to deviate from standard interpretation unless the photo uploader clearly identified certain animals as tested.
Countercanter ( talk) 14:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Seal brown is a hair coat color of horses characterized by a near-black body color, black mane, tail and legs...// As opposed to liver chestnut?
Would you like me to include this distinction in the intro?
Is it common practice to put the quotation in the hidden comments?
this should not be confused with traditional buckskins
Agreed.
How does this differ from a bay? Also may need to mention that we start with a black base coat (E) here, do we not?
Yes, the MC1R/Extension gene is discussed in the beginning paragraph, and mentioned in the first part of the sentence. You mean I should try to tie the MC1R genotype to the black-pointed phenotype more clearly?
awkward style to keep citing these guys by name in the text, better just to footnote
Ok.
Some of this may be nice to put in the Sooty article?
Ok!
Countercanter ( talk) 12:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Also worth discussing -- the nature of the Agouti gene, and other genes, for that matter. Let's use human ASIP as an example, and we'll pretend it's horse ASIP. The horse ASIP is out there and I found it but I'm feeling like I'd rather not spend my Sunday morning on NCBI. And for argument's sake let's say that bay and wild bay are no different at agouti. I have no idea if they really are or are not, but we will treat both as "wildtype." It is 584 base pairs long:
And conceivably encodes the following amino acids:
A horse with this Agouti gene will be wildtype (bay/wild bay). Okay, more pretend. Let's pretend that in the 301 line, 11 base pairs are deleted. This is the a allele; an 11 bp deletion that breaks the Agouti gene.
Let's then pretend that on the 361 line, we change that first c into a t, and let's pretend that this is our At allele. The gene, and resultant protein, are altered but not completely broken.
I can feel that you are thinking that seal brown is bay+something, which I do not think is the best way to think of it. Buckskin is bay+something. Once again I've failed to really round out my thoughts on this, but maybe this is helpful.
[1] Here is the link to the equine ASIP gene. Not so beautifully fleshed out as the murine or human one but, there ya go. Countercanter ( talk) 13:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I have been informed that the category Brown horses is for users that don't know the difference between chestnut and bay. The category Bay horses currently holds every shade of bay, including dark bay i.e. "brown". I am confused as how are readers supposed to learn the difference when there are not any brown horse images displayed. AFIK all common breeds list brown as a colour. What are other equine editors thoughts? Cgoodwin ( talk) 03:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
"Liver chestnut // Not, has black in the mane and the hock; legs are light but it's a winter coat and probably mighty sunfaded, looking at that horse it looks like it's been out the whole time :) ( Pitke ( talk))"
I'd like to point out that the horse has black mane. Whatever his legs might look like, he can't be chestnut AND have black hair since the genetics of E and A genes. The horse obviously has a long winter coat and might also be a wildtype bay as far as we could know. My bottom line is, we can't be sure of the horses colour, and if we can't decide on this, I suggest we select another clearly, agreeably liver chestnut that looks dark enough to fill the part of this picture. As a matter of fact I suggest it in any case as this particular animal is so confusing. I aknowledge that the mane MIGHT be just a REALLY dark chocolate brown (though it looks black to me every time), but without DNA test results, we cannot ever be sure. Pitke ( talk) 12:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
In more than 40 years of training, exhibiting and breeding, I have noted that in true seal brown horses, and also in many duns/buckskins, and grullas, generally only minimal white markings are seen. I have often wondered about whether a genetic suppression of the (latent) white markings may be at work.
For example, when one looks at all the pictures of true seal browns, and reviews all the true seal browns one has known, when any white markings are present, they are generally a small star, perhaps a small snip, and one or two coronets. I do not recall any significant blazes, socks, or stockings.
Buckskins, grullas and duns also tend to show this suppression of white markings.
By the way, this seems to hold across breeds: for example, we see many seal browns in Thoroughbreds; and the white markings are few. The duns/buckskins and grullas, of course, are grounded in the Quarter Horse (with origins in the Spanish horse (and the Mustang) and further back into the primitive breeds, especially Przewalski's and the Tarpan. But here as well, we see few white markings.
I'm hoping that folks out there, with a genetics/horse breeding background, can add some good science/DNA research to all these years of observations. I will look forward to your input! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pihamilton ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
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Seal brown (horse). Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)