This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
High fives all around! Now, what needs to be done to really make this article sparkle? I've added a couple of relevant quotations at the top of the page. Nightsky 20:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editor 67.170.224.208 has changed the spellings in the article from "shanty" and "shantyman" to "chanty" and "chantyman" twice now. The information that I have is that "shanty" and especially "shantyman" are the preferred spellings. See. eg:
Doerflinger, Shantymen and Shantyboys,
Hugill, Shanties from the Seven Seas,
Hugill, Shanties and Sailors' Songs, etc.
Similarly, an unscientific Google search gives about 500 hits for "chantyman" vs about 200,000 for "shantyman." The S spelling is the more common spelling. Therefore, I am reverting this back to the "S" spellings. If 67.170.224.208 has other information, he/she should post it here before changing this page again and perhaps we all can some to some kind of agreement first.
Crypticfirefly
17:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. All the sources I have prefer "shanty", and "chantey" is listed as an alternate spelling in the first line of the article, so there can't be much confusion. Let's keep the spelling as it is. Nightsky 23:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
"Blow the Man Down" is listed as an example under "long-haul" and "short-drag." It can't be both, can it? Foxmulder 15:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the first Dana example as it references sailors "singing out" at their lines. Though the wording here does not make it quite clear, to sing out on shipboard is to call out on land. E.g., "sing out when that halyard's fast". Czrisher 02:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi
I have recently developed an interest in sea shanties and I am wondering you could help me answer a question. Does anyone know the connection between a noted sea shanty singer and sailing captain and the title of an episode of 'The Simpsons'?
Thanks very much, Ghfj007 19:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know it? I haven't been able to find recordings of the song anywhere. I've just been singing it to the tune of South Australia. Wobblies 18:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
As children we sang - well scuse me, but in jig time and in C
G F# G A G E C
G - A - F
F E D C B D G
G - G - E
Just though I should mention it incase any of you wanted to know..
Luredreier 23:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
In a Renaissance Faire a cappella context, I came across the notion that the call & response "Plymouth Town" (there dwelt a maid) is the oldest recorded shanty, at least in English. As time allows, I'll see if I can chase down some cites, or someone else could get there first... Just plain Bill 13:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
"Men may leave all gramys That seylen for St Jamys"?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.91.37 ( talk) 02:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi all, I am in the process of making some significant revisions and additions to this article. Hopefully we can get it so those "warnings" at the top of the page go away. Also, I am trying to give it a more historical tone, rather than the tone of "this is how 21st century lay people connect with the idea of shanties" which I think has been dominant previously. Will supply historical references that are older and/or more primary than the edited collections by song enthusiasts. Would also like to link examples that give more representation to people working within the tradition being described. I welcome help in getting the references all in the right places and the formatting and linking done right, as I am new to Wiki editing. DrBaldhead ( talk) 23:04, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Considering recombining some subtopics to be more concise. "Further Reading" is going to basically be a duplicate of the "References" (?), so considering eliminating that section. The only sources it lists that are not/will not be in the references are some very relatively recent books that don't, IMO, add anything new (they are derivative of older sources). The "Samples" (video/audio) section would be less confusing/redundant and more eloquent if those samples were combined into the "Categories"/"Types" section, i.e. as illustration of the types. Is there any benefit in having the "Roll the Old Chariot" as OGG rather than as a link to the Library of Congress mp3? The latter would make things look more consistent. The "Literary reference" section will appear redundant after all the literature quoted to convey the "history and development." Is there any particular type of "literature" that merits its own section? Is it fiction? (most references are in non-fiction). If so, what time period is in mind? Perhaps I'll try covering the non-fiction as part of the history, and the later fiction (eg Stevenson) under "Popular Culture." DrBaldhead ( talk) 10:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
How do whaling songs fit into this schema, more info required. - FrancisTyers · 09:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"Whaling songs" usually refers to off-duty (non-shanty) songs, but which happen to be about whaling. So far as can be determined, sailors on whaling ships used the same shanties for work as did merchant sailors. There are a few special tasks on whaling ships, but it has not been documented that any specific shanties were assigned to them. There are a couple big collections of whaling songs (Huntington, Frank), and between the 2 of them, hardly a shanty is mentioned. DrBaldhead ( talk) 10:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
The subject is an important one, but there are fundamental problems with it. To name just a few:
Strawberryjampot ( talk) 22:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
My opinion of the list of performers, while there is definitely room for flexibility, is that they should be performers of shanties and sea songs as their primary focus. Lots of sailor songs have been popularized as "folk songs" and here and there sung by folk music performers and (usually derivative of the folk singers) and pop performers. But that would mean an enormous number of people who have no primary identity as "Performers of Sea Music" -- and the list we could make of performers who do have that identity would be huge enough. Peter Bellamy is an example. He did make up some sea-related songs and recorded a few shanties. But he was performing "English folk music" as his genre, and most of the English/Irish folk musicians had adopted a few shanties and sang them in their folk clubs. The Clancy Brothers probably sang more, for instance. A.L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl were also broadly "folk" performers, though what they performed in the way of shanties was much more substantial than someone like Bellamy or Cyril Tawny (who had some navy songs he wrote). General folk music performers like The Almanac Singers, Burl Ives, and Paul Clayton recorded entire albums of sea music; why don't we associate them with the genre? Seems like a bias thing -- maybe undue weight on people who are making up new maritime music and adapting material, and not enough of people doing stuff that is squarely located in the "center" of the subject.
If necessary to include these people, maybe distinguish a separate category of "folk and pop music performers who have included several chanties in their repertoire," or something. Another possible way to do it is to divide by country, though I wouldn't prefer that.
There is a bias towards North American performers right now. I don't think any of the many UK groups are represented (I will work on that, instead of just complaining!). Even for North America, needs more folks who do the stuff that the article is mainly talking about. Would be good to have more European "choirs", too. But now how does that fit into "notability"? If they don't have a Wiki page, can we call them notable? Yes, I think we can, by providing a reference/link even if they don't have the commercial success/clout to get their own article :-)
I guess why I'm posting this is because: 1) After more performers have been added to balance the bias, there will be quite a lot of names, and some of the more "marginally" relevant ones will go. I understand that's somewhat subjective; we can discuss. 2) People will periodically continue to add their "pet" favorites. Having a clearer sense of the criteria of relevance will help it from looking too "random". — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrBaldhead ( talk • contribs) 09:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk · contribs) 00:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: three found and and fixed. [1] Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:38, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I've added additional details on the image page, and I've added some more sentences in the article to make clear why an image of Stan Hugill (for which there are no free ones) is important to have. If one imagines the "tight shirted" folklorists of the early 20th century and then sees Hugill, one quickly understands how his book --though it was less scholarly than some others-- shot to prominence as the so-called shanty "Bible." Check it out, and see if the rationale is adequate, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrBaldhead ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
High fives all around! Now, what needs to be done to really make this article sparkle? I've added a couple of relevant quotations at the top of the page. Nightsky 20:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editor 67.170.224.208 has changed the spellings in the article from "shanty" and "shantyman" to "chanty" and "chantyman" twice now. The information that I have is that "shanty" and especially "shantyman" are the preferred spellings. See. eg:
Doerflinger, Shantymen and Shantyboys,
Hugill, Shanties from the Seven Seas,
Hugill, Shanties and Sailors' Songs, etc.
Similarly, an unscientific Google search gives about 500 hits for "chantyman" vs about 200,000 for "shantyman." The S spelling is the more common spelling. Therefore, I am reverting this back to the "S" spellings. If 67.170.224.208 has other information, he/she should post it here before changing this page again and perhaps we all can some to some kind of agreement first.
Crypticfirefly
17:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. All the sources I have prefer "shanty", and "chantey" is listed as an alternate spelling in the first line of the article, so there can't be much confusion. Let's keep the spelling as it is. Nightsky 23:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
"Blow the Man Down" is listed as an example under "long-haul" and "short-drag." It can't be both, can it? Foxmulder 15:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the first Dana example as it references sailors "singing out" at their lines. Though the wording here does not make it quite clear, to sing out on shipboard is to call out on land. E.g., "sing out when that halyard's fast". Czrisher 02:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi
I have recently developed an interest in sea shanties and I am wondering you could help me answer a question. Does anyone know the connection between a noted sea shanty singer and sailing captain and the title of an episode of 'The Simpsons'?
Thanks very much, Ghfj007 19:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know it? I haven't been able to find recordings of the song anywhere. I've just been singing it to the tune of South Australia. Wobblies 18:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
As children we sang - well scuse me, but in jig time and in C
G F# G A G E C
G - A - F
F E D C B D G
G - G - E
Just though I should mention it incase any of you wanted to know..
Luredreier 23:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
In a Renaissance Faire a cappella context, I came across the notion that the call & response "Plymouth Town" (there dwelt a maid) is the oldest recorded shanty, at least in English. As time allows, I'll see if I can chase down some cites, or someone else could get there first... Just plain Bill 13:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
"Men may leave all gramys That seylen for St Jamys"?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.91.37 ( talk) 02:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi all, I am in the process of making some significant revisions and additions to this article. Hopefully we can get it so those "warnings" at the top of the page go away. Also, I am trying to give it a more historical tone, rather than the tone of "this is how 21st century lay people connect with the idea of shanties" which I think has been dominant previously. Will supply historical references that are older and/or more primary than the edited collections by song enthusiasts. Would also like to link examples that give more representation to people working within the tradition being described. I welcome help in getting the references all in the right places and the formatting and linking done right, as I am new to Wiki editing. DrBaldhead ( talk) 23:04, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Considering recombining some subtopics to be more concise. "Further Reading" is going to basically be a duplicate of the "References" (?), so considering eliminating that section. The only sources it lists that are not/will not be in the references are some very relatively recent books that don't, IMO, add anything new (they are derivative of older sources). The "Samples" (video/audio) section would be less confusing/redundant and more eloquent if those samples were combined into the "Categories"/"Types" section, i.e. as illustration of the types. Is there any benefit in having the "Roll the Old Chariot" as OGG rather than as a link to the Library of Congress mp3? The latter would make things look more consistent. The "Literary reference" section will appear redundant after all the literature quoted to convey the "history and development." Is there any particular type of "literature" that merits its own section? Is it fiction? (most references are in non-fiction). If so, what time period is in mind? Perhaps I'll try covering the non-fiction as part of the history, and the later fiction (eg Stevenson) under "Popular Culture." DrBaldhead ( talk) 10:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
How do whaling songs fit into this schema, more info required. - FrancisTyers · 09:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"Whaling songs" usually refers to off-duty (non-shanty) songs, but which happen to be about whaling. So far as can be determined, sailors on whaling ships used the same shanties for work as did merchant sailors. There are a few special tasks on whaling ships, but it has not been documented that any specific shanties were assigned to them. There are a couple big collections of whaling songs (Huntington, Frank), and between the 2 of them, hardly a shanty is mentioned. DrBaldhead ( talk) 10:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
The subject is an important one, but there are fundamental problems with it. To name just a few:
Strawberryjampot ( talk) 22:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
My opinion of the list of performers, while there is definitely room for flexibility, is that they should be performers of shanties and sea songs as their primary focus. Lots of sailor songs have been popularized as "folk songs" and here and there sung by folk music performers and (usually derivative of the folk singers) and pop performers. But that would mean an enormous number of people who have no primary identity as "Performers of Sea Music" -- and the list we could make of performers who do have that identity would be huge enough. Peter Bellamy is an example. He did make up some sea-related songs and recorded a few shanties. But he was performing "English folk music" as his genre, and most of the English/Irish folk musicians had adopted a few shanties and sang them in their folk clubs. The Clancy Brothers probably sang more, for instance. A.L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl were also broadly "folk" performers, though what they performed in the way of shanties was much more substantial than someone like Bellamy or Cyril Tawny (who had some navy songs he wrote). General folk music performers like The Almanac Singers, Burl Ives, and Paul Clayton recorded entire albums of sea music; why don't we associate them with the genre? Seems like a bias thing -- maybe undue weight on people who are making up new maritime music and adapting material, and not enough of people doing stuff that is squarely located in the "center" of the subject.
If necessary to include these people, maybe distinguish a separate category of "folk and pop music performers who have included several chanties in their repertoire," or something. Another possible way to do it is to divide by country, though I wouldn't prefer that.
There is a bias towards North American performers right now. I don't think any of the many UK groups are represented (I will work on that, instead of just complaining!). Even for North America, needs more folks who do the stuff that the article is mainly talking about. Would be good to have more European "choirs", too. But now how does that fit into "notability"? If they don't have a Wiki page, can we call them notable? Yes, I think we can, by providing a reference/link even if they don't have the commercial success/clout to get their own article :-)
I guess why I'm posting this is because: 1) After more performers have been added to balance the bias, there will be quite a lot of names, and some of the more "marginally" relevant ones will go. I understand that's somewhat subjective; we can discuss. 2) People will periodically continue to add their "pet" favorites. Having a clearer sense of the criteria of relevance will help it from looking too "random". — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrBaldhead ( talk • contribs) 09:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk · contribs) 00:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: three found and and fixed. [1] Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:38, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I've added additional details on the image page, and I've added some more sentences in the article to make clear why an image of Stan Hugill (for which there are no free ones) is important to have. If one imagines the "tight shirted" folklorists of the early 20th century and then sees Hugill, one quickly understands how his book --though it was less scholarly than some others-- shot to prominence as the so-called shanty "Bible." Check it out, and see if the rationale is adequate, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrBaldhead ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)