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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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Please help me. I am currently improving the article ocean. I see a lot of overlap between ocean and sea. I see two options: either we merge the two, or we reduce the overlap (I am for merging but I might be in the minority; I might put up a merger proposal later). Let's assume we are not merging. Then let's understand which content should be in "sea" and which in "ocean" so that we don't have unnecessary duplication and extra work. These are the sections that are overlapping, for example: Currents, waves and swell, biology / life at sea, acidification. What is not overlapping is "human uses" (which is only at sea). So I could put a link across from ocean to sea under a section called human uses. Sea doesn't yet have a section on environmental issues and doesn't mention climate change yet (or only once). Do we perhaps want to set up the two articles so that sea is more about history and human uses whereas ocean is more about geography and current challenges with regards to pollution and climate change? What do you all think? This is a featured article so I hope there are lots of people watching this page. (does it actually still meat featured article criteria? Does it need a review?), FYI User:ASRASR EMsmile ( talk) 03:39, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
I think Velella and EMsmile have described a similar distinction of Sea (general) and Ocean (oceanographic). I think that sounds like a start.
PS: even though I think that there is still confusion of what the difference between the articles of Ocean and World Ocean is, at the moment it sounds like Ocean is refocused from an article about any ocean to what World Ocean tries to do. As stated elsewhere I am for keeping all three articles with one as the main and two as sub; or merging all three. But lets see where this duplication reduction takes us. Nsae Comp ( talk) 07:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
In March this year I had started a discussion called "How to reduce overlap with ocean?" (please scroll up). I'd like to revisit this today and provide an update. Last month, I spent a lot of time together with an external expert to rework the ocean article. I think it's a lot better now, more comprehensive and quite up to date regarding the topic of oceans and climate. During the process we did copy (and adapt) some content from the "Sea" article and this is all documented in the edit summaries (I normally prefer moving content from one Wikipedia article to another, not copying; in this case, the copying was the more prudent approach; it wasn't very much anyhow). I've also set up a discussion about the overlapping content of the two articles and possible options to reduce overlap; this is available in user space here. EMsmile ( talk) 13:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I have just changed the hatnote of the article as per my proposal above on 3 August. It now reads
The purpose of this is, like I said above, to guide future editors to know what the difference is between the ocean and sea article, and therefore to avoid that people think they need to add the same content in both places, e.g. content about how climate change and oceans, or how marine pollution affects the ocean (this should in future go primarily into the ocean article, not the sea article). EMsmile ( talk) 03:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of edits since the beginning of the year that had to be reverted. Should we apply to increase the protection level for this article? Just wondering. EMsmile ( talk) 11:36, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Should this article be merged with ocean? See also prior discussion: § How to reduce overlap with ocean? CactiStaccingCrane ( talk) 08:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
it would help to try to define the logical scope of each of these articles before attempting any major changes. I think it's impossible to determine if they should be merged without first outlining this. As they stand now, the articles appear to contain significant duplication. The English language further complicates things, as sea and ocean are frequently used interchangeably in conversation. BeReasonabl ( talk) 23:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Don't merge. (invited by the bot) Per rationales described by CactiStaccingCrane the are not synonyms. North8000 ( talk) 14:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
I have a problem with the section on environmental issues. It currently has two sub-headings: ocean acidification and marine pollution. This seems arbitrary to me as it should either have a comprehensive list of sub-headings or none at all and rather link across to Ocean where all this is covered in detail in the section on "threats from human activities". If we agree that "Ocean should have emphasis on science, with only some history and culture. Sea should focus on history and culture, with only some science" (wording by LightProof1995 above on 8 March 23), then I think this section on environmental issues needs to be condensed and the reader referred to Ocean for more details very clearly.
In addition, the content about ocean acidification is now quite outdated here, using refs from around 2011 until 2019. I recently did some work on updating the ocean acidification article. I am not motivated though to update the same content here as well as I think it's inefficient to have content about ocean acidification in all sorts of articles and having to update it everywhere. For that reason I tend to use excerpts when it comes to fast changing topics such as ocean acidification, ocean temperature, ocean heat content and so forth. (I know that not everyone likes excerpts.) So my suggestion is to condense the section on environmental issues here and ensure readers know that there are plenty of issues but that the details can be found at Ocean; rather than building up this section here. EMsmile ( talk) 09:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
First paragraph of the lede has
Particular seas are either marginal seas, second-order sections of the oceanic sea (e.g. the Mediterranean Sea), or certain large, nearly or completely landlocked (e.g. the Caspian Sea).
I believe that the Caspian Sea is generally, or at least sometimes considered a lake. Our article Caspian Sea opens with
The Caspian Sea is the world's largest inland body of water, often described as the world's largest lake or a full-fledged sea.
and refs are given.
I personally consider the Caspian Sea a sea, but so what, it's the sources that matter. One reason it's considered a sea is that it has "sea" in its name, but so do Salton Sea, Sea of Galilee, etc, but they are not seas. Whither or no, it's contested at least, so we shouldn't flat-out state that it is a sea, anywhere but particularly in the lede. Thus I have removed that passage.
Oh and also we address the subject lower down where we do indeed note that it's debatable.
In fact, are there any "nearly landlocked" bodies of water that are considered to be seas? Lake Maracaibo is nearly landlocked, but our article describes it as a lake -- possibly because of the name, but that's not my call -- but, it is debated also. Since Lake Maracaibo is not incontrovertibly a sea, are there any nearly landlocked bodies of water that are so considered? If not (I haven't checked) we should also remove "nearly...landlocked from the lede also. Herostratus ( talk) 18:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi User:CactiStaccingCrane I see you have made some big bold changes to this article but you have not said anything on the talk page. Can you please explain here your reasoning for making these changes? I am not disagreeing with them (I have long tried to reduce overlap between the sea and the ocean article, see talk page above). But I know there is a bunch of others who were favouring keeping the article as it is (it's a featured article after all) so I expect some pushback. Therefore, it would be good to know if we have a broad consensus for these big changes. The new article size is 32 kB, down from 68 kB on 3 December. A change this big ought to be accompanied with a talk page entry. EMsmile ( talk) 09:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sea article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
Sea is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 2, 2013. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-2 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
|
Please help me. I am currently improving the article ocean. I see a lot of overlap between ocean and sea. I see two options: either we merge the two, or we reduce the overlap (I am for merging but I might be in the minority; I might put up a merger proposal later). Let's assume we are not merging. Then let's understand which content should be in "sea" and which in "ocean" so that we don't have unnecessary duplication and extra work. These are the sections that are overlapping, for example: Currents, waves and swell, biology / life at sea, acidification. What is not overlapping is "human uses" (which is only at sea). So I could put a link across from ocean to sea under a section called human uses. Sea doesn't yet have a section on environmental issues and doesn't mention climate change yet (or only once). Do we perhaps want to set up the two articles so that sea is more about history and human uses whereas ocean is more about geography and current challenges with regards to pollution and climate change? What do you all think? This is a featured article so I hope there are lots of people watching this page. (does it actually still meat featured article criteria? Does it need a review?), FYI User:ASRASR EMsmile ( talk) 03:39, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
I think Velella and EMsmile have described a similar distinction of Sea (general) and Ocean (oceanographic). I think that sounds like a start.
PS: even though I think that there is still confusion of what the difference between the articles of Ocean and World Ocean is, at the moment it sounds like Ocean is refocused from an article about any ocean to what World Ocean tries to do. As stated elsewhere I am for keeping all three articles with one as the main and two as sub; or merging all three. But lets see where this duplication reduction takes us. Nsae Comp ( talk) 07:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
In March this year I had started a discussion called "How to reduce overlap with ocean?" (please scroll up). I'd like to revisit this today and provide an update. Last month, I spent a lot of time together with an external expert to rework the ocean article. I think it's a lot better now, more comprehensive and quite up to date regarding the topic of oceans and climate. During the process we did copy (and adapt) some content from the "Sea" article and this is all documented in the edit summaries (I normally prefer moving content from one Wikipedia article to another, not copying; in this case, the copying was the more prudent approach; it wasn't very much anyhow). I've also set up a discussion about the overlapping content of the two articles and possible options to reduce overlap; this is available in user space here. EMsmile ( talk) 13:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I have just changed the hatnote of the article as per my proposal above on 3 August. It now reads
The purpose of this is, like I said above, to guide future editors to know what the difference is between the ocean and sea article, and therefore to avoid that people think they need to add the same content in both places, e.g. content about how climate change and oceans, or how marine pollution affects the ocean (this should in future go primarily into the ocean article, not the sea article). EMsmile ( talk) 03:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of edits since the beginning of the year that had to be reverted. Should we apply to increase the protection level for this article? Just wondering. EMsmile ( talk) 11:36, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Should this article be merged with ocean? See also prior discussion: § How to reduce overlap with ocean? CactiStaccingCrane ( talk) 08:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
it would help to try to define the logical scope of each of these articles before attempting any major changes. I think it's impossible to determine if they should be merged without first outlining this. As they stand now, the articles appear to contain significant duplication. The English language further complicates things, as sea and ocean are frequently used interchangeably in conversation. BeReasonabl ( talk) 23:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Don't merge. (invited by the bot) Per rationales described by CactiStaccingCrane the are not synonyms. North8000 ( talk) 14:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
I have a problem with the section on environmental issues. It currently has two sub-headings: ocean acidification and marine pollution. This seems arbitrary to me as it should either have a comprehensive list of sub-headings or none at all and rather link across to Ocean where all this is covered in detail in the section on "threats from human activities". If we agree that "Ocean should have emphasis on science, with only some history and culture. Sea should focus on history and culture, with only some science" (wording by LightProof1995 above on 8 March 23), then I think this section on environmental issues needs to be condensed and the reader referred to Ocean for more details very clearly.
In addition, the content about ocean acidification is now quite outdated here, using refs from around 2011 until 2019. I recently did some work on updating the ocean acidification article. I am not motivated though to update the same content here as well as I think it's inefficient to have content about ocean acidification in all sorts of articles and having to update it everywhere. For that reason I tend to use excerpts when it comes to fast changing topics such as ocean acidification, ocean temperature, ocean heat content and so forth. (I know that not everyone likes excerpts.) So my suggestion is to condense the section on environmental issues here and ensure readers know that there are plenty of issues but that the details can be found at Ocean; rather than building up this section here. EMsmile ( talk) 09:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
First paragraph of the lede has
Particular seas are either marginal seas, second-order sections of the oceanic sea (e.g. the Mediterranean Sea), or certain large, nearly or completely landlocked (e.g. the Caspian Sea).
I believe that the Caspian Sea is generally, or at least sometimes considered a lake. Our article Caspian Sea opens with
The Caspian Sea is the world's largest inland body of water, often described as the world's largest lake or a full-fledged sea.
and refs are given.
I personally consider the Caspian Sea a sea, but so what, it's the sources that matter. One reason it's considered a sea is that it has "sea" in its name, but so do Salton Sea, Sea of Galilee, etc, but they are not seas. Whither or no, it's contested at least, so we shouldn't flat-out state that it is a sea, anywhere but particularly in the lede. Thus I have removed that passage.
Oh and also we address the subject lower down where we do indeed note that it's debatable.
In fact, are there any "nearly landlocked" bodies of water that are considered to be seas? Lake Maracaibo is nearly landlocked, but our article describes it as a lake -- possibly because of the name, but that's not my call -- but, it is debated also. Since Lake Maracaibo is not incontrovertibly a sea, are there any nearly landlocked bodies of water that are so considered? If not (I haven't checked) we should also remove "nearly...landlocked from the lede also. Herostratus ( talk) 18:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi User:CactiStaccingCrane I see you have made some big bold changes to this article but you have not said anything on the talk page. Can you please explain here your reasoning for making these changes? I am not disagreeing with them (I have long tried to reduce overlap between the sea and the ocean article, see talk page above). But I know there is a bunch of others who were favouring keeping the article as it is (it's a featured article after all) so I expect some pushback. Therefore, it would be good to know if we have a broad consensus for these big changes. The new article size is 32 kB, down from 68 kB on 3 December. A change this big ought to be accompanied with a talk page entry. EMsmile ( talk) 09:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)