A fact from Seán Mac Diarmada appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 1 April 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
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The stamp says he was born in 1883, the article says 1884. Is 1883 correct? I would think the Irish government would probably know. Rick K 06:56, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I would've thought "Sean MacDiarmada" would be a far better known name, because that's what he signed the Declaration of Indepedence as. EamonnPKeane 17:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I would have thought likewise, especially in light of the many GAA clubs and grounds named MacDiarmada. El Gringo 00:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I just read this morning's Leitrim Observer and there was a front page article there about 'Seán Mac Diarmada'. That is the name they are still calling him by in Leitrim. I think it definitely should be changed here.
On 'This Week' on RTÉ radio 1 today at 1pm two historians were talking about him, and the other leaders. Each time they referred to Seán Mac Diarmada, and not the version here. The interview in question was in English and was between Eunan O Halpin of TCD [1] and Éamon Phoenix of Stranmillis University [2]. You can hear it here: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thisweek/ El Gringo 16:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record it was Seán Mac Diarmada and not the name on this article who signed the Proclamation. In other words not only is he known as Seán Mac Diarmada today but he signed his name as such in 1916: http://www.irelandposters.com/dublin/1916_proclamation.html and http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm El Gringo 16:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia naming conventions for Irish-related articles: 'Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.' and 'If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not Martin Kyne; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tom Fee, etc.' That is Wikipedia's take on it. In Ireland, as shown above, Mac Diarmada is commonly referred to in English by his Irish name, and it is in that name that he signed the Proclamation that made him famous. On both counts, then, the Wikipedia Manual of Style on Irish naming conventions supports this article being under Seán Mac Diarmada. El Gringo 01:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Sean MacDermott page should be renamed as "Seán Mac Diarmada", You may not agree so I thought I wouldnt highlight it here first to initiate a discussion or possibly put it to a vote. regards Vintagekits 11:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this page was not on my Watchlist when the move was made last year. I believe the move was a mistake. The following books, most of which are listed in the bibliography of the Easter Rising article, all give his name as “Seán MacDermott”, not “Seán Mac Diarmada”:
The last three are especially important as they are the words of the people who actually knew and worked with this man. Kathleen Clarke was a close friend of MacDermott. Contast this with “on 'This Week' on RTÉ radio 1 today at 1pm two historians were talking about him” above. The only time, apparently, that he used the name “Mac Diarmada” was when he signed the Proclamation. Strangely, Patrick Pearse, who also signed his name in Irish, has never been referred to in English as “Pádraig Mac Piarais,” although he was referred to for many years as “Pádraig Pearse.”
R. fiend made these very points above, but his views were not taken into consideration when moving the article.
For these reasons, and because I am involved in an effort to improve the Easter Rising article, I propose to move this back to the original name.
Scolaire
14:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I would tend to support the move to the original title, though as long as redirects work I don't think the issue is a major one. I am curious as to what evidence there is that he "is most commonly known as Seán Mac Diarmada", as Vintagekits states. I tend to agree with the point made by Scolaire (which is hardly surprising as it's the same point I made before). I can add a few other authors who list him as MacDermott in their indices:
Thr book Last Words by Piaras F. Mac Lochlainn does list him as Sean MacDiarmada, but, curiously it quotes a dispatch written by the man himself: "Dear Mr. Callender, Please deliver the enclosed to Major John MacBride at once. Most urgent. Yours faithfully, Sean MacDermott". So he used that name himself. I'm curious to see evidence that supports MacDiarmada as the more common use. - R. fiend 23:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Vintagekits and Domer48, between you you have hit the nail on the head — you consider Mac Diarmada the most common name because it was in the Leaving Cert school books, and it was put in the school books because it was the name he used when signing the proclamation, not because the writers knew anything about the man. The designers of the school curriculum were the same faceless bureaucrats who named the bust in the Oireachteas. Anybody that knows anything at all about him knows that he called himself "Seán MacDermott" as witness all the books quoted above. RTÉ called their programme "Seán Mac Diarmada" because "On Behalf of The Provisional Government" is a direct quote from the Proclamation, so that was reasonable, but why is the findagrave article called "Seán MacDermott" if he was "better known as Sean MacDiarmada"? Scolaire 19:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
In reply to your later arguments, which you made while I was still typing my original reply: that he signed the Proclamation "Mac Diarmada" is certain, but it is the only documented use of that name in his lifetime. All other sources spring from that signature. Why he did it, God knows! Most likely the emotion of the moment. But Desmond FitzGerald, quoted above, spoke with him inside the GPO, and he uses the name MacDermott, and after his arrest, according to MacLochlainn, quoted above, he himself wrote a note and signed it "MacDermott." So, while of course I respect his decision to use the Irish name in the Proclamation, I don't believe he intended it as a statement that that was the name he wished to be remembered by. Scolaire 19:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a tricky case; although only one document from the man's lifetime attests to one spelling, that is the usage which has come to predominate in other works. The case can be argued either way, and has been. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 06:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The Dictionary of Irish Biography says that MacDermott "was born January 1883 (baptised 29 January)". The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says it was "probably on 26 January 1884 [ sic] (his birth was officially registered as 29 March, but his baptism is recorded as having taken place on 29 January)". The "1884" is a typo because his dates at the top of the article are 1883–1916. The only reference to a February DOB I can find on Google Books is this, which was taken straight from this article (I presume it was attributed per Creative Commons licence, I just can't see where). Taking all this into consideration, I see no reason to question this edit, which says that Seán MacDiarmada: 16Lives gives a date of 27 January 1883. That therefore becomes our most reliable source for his date of birth. Scolaire ( talk) 09:32, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
At present the sentences regarding his engagement are a mess. It was originally added in this edit (note the source referred to is inaccurately named, the book is called "Last Words" not "Loss Words"). Since then is has become quite garbled, as the sentence "Mac Diarmada had been in regular correspondence with Nell Ryan" is followed by "In his final letter he wrote: "Miss Ryan, she who in all probability, had I lived, would have been my wife"." and ""Min" Josephine Ryan and her sister, Phyllis, had been couriers to the GPO". So there are three references to women called "Ryan", and the article does not make it clear he was referring to "Min" Josephine Ryan. I propose removing the sentence about Nell Ryan as I don't understand the need to include that two people merely exchanged letters, and replace it with a sentence detailing his relationship with Min. FDW777 ( talk) 17:07, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
A fact from Seán Mac Diarmada appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 1 April 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The stamp says he was born in 1883, the article says 1884. Is 1883 correct? I would think the Irish government would probably know. Rick K 06:56, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I would've thought "Sean MacDiarmada" would be a far better known name, because that's what he signed the Declaration of Indepedence as. EamonnPKeane 17:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I would have thought likewise, especially in light of the many GAA clubs and grounds named MacDiarmada. El Gringo 00:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I just read this morning's Leitrim Observer and there was a front page article there about 'Seán Mac Diarmada'. That is the name they are still calling him by in Leitrim. I think it definitely should be changed here.
On 'This Week' on RTÉ radio 1 today at 1pm two historians were talking about him, and the other leaders. Each time they referred to Seán Mac Diarmada, and not the version here. The interview in question was in English and was between Eunan O Halpin of TCD [1] and Éamon Phoenix of Stranmillis University [2]. You can hear it here: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thisweek/ El Gringo 16:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record it was Seán Mac Diarmada and not the name on this article who signed the Proclamation. In other words not only is he known as Seán Mac Diarmada today but he signed his name as such in 1916: http://www.irelandposters.com/dublin/1916_proclamation.html and http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm El Gringo 16:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia naming conventions for Irish-related articles: 'Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.' and 'If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not Martin Kyne; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tom Fee, etc.' That is Wikipedia's take on it. In Ireland, as shown above, Mac Diarmada is commonly referred to in English by his Irish name, and it is in that name that he signed the Proclamation that made him famous. On both counts, then, the Wikipedia Manual of Style on Irish naming conventions supports this article being under Seán Mac Diarmada. El Gringo 01:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Sean MacDermott page should be renamed as "Seán Mac Diarmada", You may not agree so I thought I wouldnt highlight it here first to initiate a discussion or possibly put it to a vote. regards Vintagekits 11:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this page was not on my Watchlist when the move was made last year. I believe the move was a mistake. The following books, most of which are listed in the bibliography of the Easter Rising article, all give his name as “Seán MacDermott”, not “Seán Mac Diarmada”:
The last three are especially important as they are the words of the people who actually knew and worked with this man. Kathleen Clarke was a close friend of MacDermott. Contast this with “on 'This Week' on RTÉ radio 1 today at 1pm two historians were talking about him” above. The only time, apparently, that he used the name “Mac Diarmada” was when he signed the Proclamation. Strangely, Patrick Pearse, who also signed his name in Irish, has never been referred to in English as “Pádraig Mac Piarais,” although he was referred to for many years as “Pádraig Pearse.”
R. fiend made these very points above, but his views were not taken into consideration when moving the article.
For these reasons, and because I am involved in an effort to improve the Easter Rising article, I propose to move this back to the original name.
Scolaire
14:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I would tend to support the move to the original title, though as long as redirects work I don't think the issue is a major one. I am curious as to what evidence there is that he "is most commonly known as Seán Mac Diarmada", as Vintagekits states. I tend to agree with the point made by Scolaire (which is hardly surprising as it's the same point I made before). I can add a few other authors who list him as MacDermott in their indices:
Thr book Last Words by Piaras F. Mac Lochlainn does list him as Sean MacDiarmada, but, curiously it quotes a dispatch written by the man himself: "Dear Mr. Callender, Please deliver the enclosed to Major John MacBride at once. Most urgent. Yours faithfully, Sean MacDermott". So he used that name himself. I'm curious to see evidence that supports MacDiarmada as the more common use. - R. fiend 23:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Vintagekits and Domer48, between you you have hit the nail on the head — you consider Mac Diarmada the most common name because it was in the Leaving Cert school books, and it was put in the school books because it was the name he used when signing the proclamation, not because the writers knew anything about the man. The designers of the school curriculum were the same faceless bureaucrats who named the bust in the Oireachteas. Anybody that knows anything at all about him knows that he called himself "Seán MacDermott" as witness all the books quoted above. RTÉ called their programme "Seán Mac Diarmada" because "On Behalf of The Provisional Government" is a direct quote from the Proclamation, so that was reasonable, but why is the findagrave article called "Seán MacDermott" if he was "better known as Sean MacDiarmada"? Scolaire 19:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
In reply to your later arguments, which you made while I was still typing my original reply: that he signed the Proclamation "Mac Diarmada" is certain, but it is the only documented use of that name in his lifetime. All other sources spring from that signature. Why he did it, God knows! Most likely the emotion of the moment. But Desmond FitzGerald, quoted above, spoke with him inside the GPO, and he uses the name MacDermott, and after his arrest, according to MacLochlainn, quoted above, he himself wrote a note and signed it "MacDermott." So, while of course I respect his decision to use the Irish name in the Proclamation, I don't believe he intended it as a statement that that was the name he wished to be remembered by. Scolaire 19:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a tricky case; although only one document from the man's lifetime attests to one spelling, that is the usage which has come to predominate in other works. The case can be argued either way, and has been. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 06:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The Dictionary of Irish Biography says that MacDermott "was born January 1883 (baptised 29 January)". The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says it was "probably on 26 January 1884 [ sic] (his birth was officially registered as 29 March, but his baptism is recorded as having taken place on 29 January)". The "1884" is a typo because his dates at the top of the article are 1883–1916. The only reference to a February DOB I can find on Google Books is this, which was taken straight from this article (I presume it was attributed per Creative Commons licence, I just can't see where). Taking all this into consideration, I see no reason to question this edit, which says that Seán MacDiarmada: 16Lives gives a date of 27 January 1883. That therefore becomes our most reliable source for his date of birth. Scolaire ( talk) 09:32, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
At present the sentences regarding his engagement are a mess. It was originally added in this edit (note the source referred to is inaccurately named, the book is called "Last Words" not "Loss Words"). Since then is has become quite garbled, as the sentence "Mac Diarmada had been in regular correspondence with Nell Ryan" is followed by "In his final letter he wrote: "Miss Ryan, she who in all probability, had I lived, would have been my wife"." and ""Min" Josephine Ryan and her sister, Phyllis, had been couriers to the GPO". So there are three references to women called "Ryan", and the article does not make it clear he was referring to "Min" Josephine Ryan. I propose removing the sentence about Nell Ryan as I don't understand the need to include that two people merely exchanged letters, and replace it with a sentence detailing his relationship with Min. FDW777 ( talk) 17:07, 3 October 2019 (UTC)