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Archive 1 |
This article needs expansion and addition of Scouting controversies and conflicts. Discuss what the problems are in countries and regions around the world on this Talk page. Also, add to the discussions in progress on this Talk page. -- Jagz 22:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think so. It's just a fact. Further I don't understand how the three countries mentioned were chosen. Scouting/Guiding was or still is banned in - at least - fifty different countries for some time: Nearly all communist countries as well as most fascist countries banned Scouting - and there are some more totalitarian regimes who banned Scouting/Guiding including Afghanistan, Malawi and Iran. -- jergen 10:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following controversies/problems for inclusion in this article:
All this needs a lot of recherches, but these are really existing controversies who are of concern for all Scouts and Guides. -- jergen 10:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
copied from Talk:Scouting#Scouting Controversies and Concerns article needs expansion
The Scouting controversies and concerns article needs to be expanded by the addition of Scouting problems and controversies (both historical and contemporary) from countries and regions around the world. -- Jagz 21:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
So far the article has these countries or regions: Canada, Cuba, Eurasian Scout Region, Germany, Netherlands, Russia, and the United States. --
Jagz
02:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have a bit of a worry about this article. There are masses of arguments. Are they all to be included? From my knowledge (WP:OR) - UK Advanced Party Report (end of Rovers, uniform changes, etc,) that lead to B-P Scouts; Australia - uniform changes. I'm only starting to get into this. What is a notable controversy? -- Bduke 12:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, a "SCOUTING" controversy is something that affects the "MOVEMENT", such membership, religios basis, should an association be coed, etc. An article on "SCOUTING CONTROVIES" should not include things like what uniform to wear, what the requirements for a certain rank in a certain association should be, etc. Rlevse 12:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
end of copy -- jergen 13:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'm coming here from Talk:Scouting. One problem is illustrated by my recollection that B-P Scouts were finally triggered by uniform changes - specifically losing the big hat. People often get upset by small things that trigger deeper frustratiuons. We have not resolved what controversies are. -- Bduke 13:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This is in response largely to jergen above. It is all very well saying that the big hat was just a trigger and that modernisation is the issue. This article is about "controversy and conflict". To the Scouters who broke off to form troops that later became part of traditional scouting groups, the controversy and conflict was about the big hat and in fact a whole load of other detailed recommendations in the Advance Party Report, including the end of Rovers. To say it was really about modernisation is putting words in their mouth and it may very well be original research. The closest argument I ever heard that could be said to be about modernisation was some Scouters saying "B-P would not have liked this change" and others saying "Yes, he would. He constantly improved things".
On other issues, I tend to agree that material should largely be, in this case, in the UK article. There was a great deal of conflict in the first 20 years of Scouting in the UK with issues about politics (For example, should Scouts be loyal to their trade union or their boss?), emphasis on woodcraft, militarism and so on. If all of these conflicts are detailed for every country, this article will get very long. Another example is that we (from Oz) have not yet added anything on Australia and I am sure their are things to say. -- Bduke 00:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Is homosexuality a Scouting controversy anywhere except the United States? -- Jagz 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone posted the following sentences in the article today so I moved it here for discussion first. Should this be included in the article?
"Avowed homosexuals are not allowed to be scout leaders or members in the United States. The BSA argues that scouting reflects traditional family values. Homosexuals are allowed in Canada without any reservations."
--
Jagz
03:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Is democratic structure a Scouting controversy either within countries or at the World Organization of the Scout Movement level? For instance as stated in the Scouts Canada article:
Some members of Scouts Canada are upset with Scouts Canada's restructuring, including a loss of voting rights at the local level. In response,
SCOUT eh! was founded in 2004, an organization consisting of "registered Scouts Canada members from across Canada dedicated to transforming Scouts Canada into a democratic association"
Also, in the United States, religious organizations exert influence over the Boy Scouts of America at the national level. --
Jagz
21:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Is segregation a Scouting controversy? There was racial segregation in the Boy Scouts of America up until the 1940s; before then African Americans had to form separate troops. Is there social class segregation in Scouting in India, etc.? -- Jagz 21:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I came accross this while editing Girl Scouts of the Philippines:
I'm sure this is adequate material which can be used for this article. -- jergen 18:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The article currently only mentions Iraq. Jergen mentioned Poland and Yugoslavia being excluded from WAGGGS/WOSM for political reasons. What other countries should be mentioned? -- Jagz 22:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Are there additional Scouting controversies that should be in this article? -- Jagz 23:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Egel commented:
"At the start of Scouting in the Netherlands the Dutch were still very pro-
boer so B-P himself and England were controversial. Maybe there are still controversies in some countries about that Scouting came from England / the western world."
Are there other controversies in the world about Scouting originating in England or the Western World? --
Jagz
23:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Scouting had in its early days major problems with its acceptance in the Catholic Church since it was viewed as masonic. The most recent incident occured in Austria; for details see Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas. -- jergen 21:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The Boy Scouts of America and Scouts Canada have actively protected their trademarks to words like "Scout" and "Scouting" through legal means. The result has been the suppression of rival organizations. -- Jagz 10:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I put a cleanup template on the "Military aspects" section because it needs to be edited and written in proper English. -- Jagz 22:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I moved this section from the article until it is cleaned up. It was in the article for an extended period of time without substantial editing. -- Jagz ( talk) 17:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps this section does need urgent attention. Scouting was almost used for military purposes, with B-P's blessing. There was a a full military standards award, including sniper training, set up by B-P. See the Red Feather award. B-P also, remember, produced at least one recruiting poster for WW1 and only really turned against war after this event - which, iirc, was also the time that the BBS lost most of their leaders, not the stated 1912 (unless you have a source proving otherwise). I may attack this area some point soon. DiverScout ( talk) 23:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Comments from a 2001 book (Education and warfare in Europe) and specifically from its section headed "Militarism and youth movements: Scouts, Komsomol, Hitler Youth":
"The Boy Scout movement deserves particular attention in the context of its role in the preparation of young people for war."
And:
"[...] the Boy Scout movement [...] added [...] militaristic elements such as military style uniforms, ranks, salutes and a form of medal system in badges and other symbolic regalia. There was even drill with long sticks as weapon substitutes." Page 80 -- http://books.google.com/books?id=JbecAAAAMAAJ -- Jandalhandler ( talk) 09:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Egel mentioned a controversy with uniforms:
"The uniform is one of the few aspects of Scouting that has some controversies, problems, criticisms in the Netherlands and probably the rest of Europe because people easily associate uniforms with military and fascist youth movements. This is one of the reasons that the European Scouting uniforms are so colorful."
Are there any other Scouting controversies about militarism? --
Jagz
22:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
"The United Kingdom Scout Association requires adult leaders to acknowledge a higher power, but does not necessarily exclude atheists from roles in Scouting, as long as the local Commissioner is satisfied that the applicant leader will support the values of Scouting and the investigation of faith by the young people in the movement."
But, from a document from the Scout Association, under the heading Key Policies, section e) Religious Policy:
"The atheistic absence of religious belief is a bar to becoming a Member of the Movement."
It really couldn't be any clearer. In Britain today, you can be Moslem, Sikh, Jewish, or one any of the hundreds of varieties of Christianity, and Scouting welcomes you with open arms, but if you are an atheist, you are unfit to help young people become better members of society. I only found out today, as I was completing the necessary forms to help our local scouts, that this astounding policy still exists. Forty-eight years ago, when I was excluded from moving up from the Cubs to the Scouts because I was an atheist, it was very upsetting. In the 21st Century, to find that there has been no progress from those days, apart from allowing other religions to join, is more than upsetting.
This needs to be reflected in this article, but I am too angry at present to do it. The Real Walrus ( talk) 18:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed upsetting. I chose to leave the SA as a leader 38 years ago, because I was an atheist, but the powers that be were not forcing me out. On the contrary they suggested I should stay as "deep down I did believe"! However, we need a detailed reference to where this is stated. It is also not clear that it applies to all "members" or just to leaders. It should not be added anywhere until we can see the source. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
has sketchy references to the US civil rights movement and the Indian resistance movement but I could'nt find anything about that in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.158.77.150 ( talk) 00:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The only mention of excluding people is "Boy Scouts of America (BSA) takes a strong position, excluding atheists and agnostics,[5][6]" - which is hardly detailed. It's a claim based on two footnotes. I daresay few leaders will take the trouble to read the footnotes.
Could we please mention individuals by name (or if there's a privacy issue in some other way) who have been excluded for being agnostic, i.e., for expressing their uncertainty about the existence of God? Also, is it also atheist boys who are excluded, or only atheist troop leaders or BSA officials? Please give details - especially if the intro says "detailed below". -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 14:21, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Page 11 World Organization of the Scout Movement – Triennial Report 1996-1999 Page 10 AN OVERVIEW OF THE TRIENNIUM, continued Scouts battle leprosy with WHO and AHM Child Protections A Memorandum of Understanding to implement the strategy for the elimination of leprosy as a public health problem was signed at the World Scout Bureau in July 1997 by three parties: the World Health Organization(Action Programme for the Elimination of Leprosy); the Munich based AHM Leprosy Relief Organization, and the World Organization of the Scout Movement. Partner organizations in ten countries, where leprosy is still prevalent, have been provided with material to implement this agreement: Bangladesh, Brazil, The Democratic Republic of Congo, India, Indonesia,Madagascar, Nepal, Philippines, Sudan and Tanzania. Scouting’s Involvement in the Elimination of Leprosy: Resource Material for National Scout Organizations has been prepared and circulated to associations concerned. The document highlights the educational dimension of this activity both for the Scouts and the communities involved.s In a message sent to all national Scout associations, the World Scout Committee expressed its concern that the Scout Movement - in every country- must actively work to protect all Scouting members, especially young people, from physical, sexual and emotional harm. All Scout organizations are expected to have policies and procedures which are intended to protect members by means of the recruitment and training of suitable leaders, and provisions for the removal of leaders found to be unsuitable.Responses to the World Committee message show that several national Scout associations have well developed protection programmes, and some of these are being used as models for adoption by other organizations and agencies.Some Scout associations indicated that they are presently reviewing their policies and procedures; unfortunately some Scout associations have not responded at all. It has been noted that some widely publicized cases of child abuse related to “scouting” were in groups calling themselves “scouts” but which are not members of the recognized national Scout association in their country; and there are also cases involving “former Scout leaders” whose offences had nothing to do with Scouting and who had been removed from Scouting - often many years ago - precisely because protection programmes were effective. The feedback is being reviewed to consider if more can be done at the world level to help national Scout organizations have effective protection programmes.Using the theme Scouts can help cure,Scouts in India and other countries are helping teach people how to recognize and test for early stages of leprosy.
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This article needs expansion and addition of Scouting controversies and conflicts. Discuss what the problems are in countries and regions around the world on this Talk page. Also, add to the discussions in progress on this Talk page. -- Jagz 22:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think so. It's just a fact. Further I don't understand how the three countries mentioned were chosen. Scouting/Guiding was or still is banned in - at least - fifty different countries for some time: Nearly all communist countries as well as most fascist countries banned Scouting - and there are some more totalitarian regimes who banned Scouting/Guiding including Afghanistan, Malawi and Iran. -- jergen 10:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following controversies/problems for inclusion in this article:
All this needs a lot of recherches, but these are really existing controversies who are of concern for all Scouts and Guides. -- jergen 10:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
copied from Talk:Scouting#Scouting Controversies and Concerns article needs expansion
The Scouting controversies and concerns article needs to be expanded by the addition of Scouting problems and controversies (both historical and contemporary) from countries and regions around the world. -- Jagz 21:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
So far the article has these countries or regions: Canada, Cuba, Eurasian Scout Region, Germany, Netherlands, Russia, and the United States. --
Jagz
02:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have a bit of a worry about this article. There are masses of arguments. Are they all to be included? From my knowledge (WP:OR) - UK Advanced Party Report (end of Rovers, uniform changes, etc,) that lead to B-P Scouts; Australia - uniform changes. I'm only starting to get into this. What is a notable controversy? -- Bduke 12:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, a "SCOUTING" controversy is something that affects the "MOVEMENT", such membership, religios basis, should an association be coed, etc. An article on "SCOUTING CONTROVIES" should not include things like what uniform to wear, what the requirements for a certain rank in a certain association should be, etc. Rlevse 12:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
end of copy -- jergen 13:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'm coming here from Talk:Scouting. One problem is illustrated by my recollection that B-P Scouts were finally triggered by uniform changes - specifically losing the big hat. People often get upset by small things that trigger deeper frustratiuons. We have not resolved what controversies are. -- Bduke 13:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This is in response largely to jergen above. It is all very well saying that the big hat was just a trigger and that modernisation is the issue. This article is about "controversy and conflict". To the Scouters who broke off to form troops that later became part of traditional scouting groups, the controversy and conflict was about the big hat and in fact a whole load of other detailed recommendations in the Advance Party Report, including the end of Rovers. To say it was really about modernisation is putting words in their mouth and it may very well be original research. The closest argument I ever heard that could be said to be about modernisation was some Scouters saying "B-P would not have liked this change" and others saying "Yes, he would. He constantly improved things".
On other issues, I tend to agree that material should largely be, in this case, in the UK article. There was a great deal of conflict in the first 20 years of Scouting in the UK with issues about politics (For example, should Scouts be loyal to their trade union or their boss?), emphasis on woodcraft, militarism and so on. If all of these conflicts are detailed for every country, this article will get very long. Another example is that we (from Oz) have not yet added anything on Australia and I am sure their are things to say. -- Bduke 00:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Is homosexuality a Scouting controversy anywhere except the United States? -- Jagz 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone posted the following sentences in the article today so I moved it here for discussion first. Should this be included in the article?
"Avowed homosexuals are not allowed to be scout leaders or members in the United States. The BSA argues that scouting reflects traditional family values. Homosexuals are allowed in Canada without any reservations."
--
Jagz
03:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Is democratic structure a Scouting controversy either within countries or at the World Organization of the Scout Movement level? For instance as stated in the Scouts Canada article:
Some members of Scouts Canada are upset with Scouts Canada's restructuring, including a loss of voting rights at the local level. In response,
SCOUT eh! was founded in 2004, an organization consisting of "registered Scouts Canada members from across Canada dedicated to transforming Scouts Canada into a democratic association"
Also, in the United States, religious organizations exert influence over the Boy Scouts of America at the national level. --
Jagz
21:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Is segregation a Scouting controversy? There was racial segregation in the Boy Scouts of America up until the 1940s; before then African Americans had to form separate troops. Is there social class segregation in Scouting in India, etc.? -- Jagz 21:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I came accross this while editing Girl Scouts of the Philippines:
I'm sure this is adequate material which can be used for this article. -- jergen 18:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The article currently only mentions Iraq. Jergen mentioned Poland and Yugoslavia being excluded from WAGGGS/WOSM for political reasons. What other countries should be mentioned? -- Jagz 22:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Are there additional Scouting controversies that should be in this article? -- Jagz 23:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Egel commented:
"At the start of Scouting in the Netherlands the Dutch were still very pro-
boer so B-P himself and England were controversial. Maybe there are still controversies in some countries about that Scouting came from England / the western world."
Are there other controversies in the world about Scouting originating in England or the Western World? --
Jagz
23:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Scouting had in its early days major problems with its acceptance in the Catholic Church since it was viewed as masonic. The most recent incident occured in Austria; for details see Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas. -- jergen 21:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The Boy Scouts of America and Scouts Canada have actively protected their trademarks to words like "Scout" and "Scouting" through legal means. The result has been the suppression of rival organizations. -- Jagz 10:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I put a cleanup template on the "Military aspects" section because it needs to be edited and written in proper English. -- Jagz 22:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I moved this section from the article until it is cleaned up. It was in the article for an extended period of time without substantial editing. -- Jagz ( talk) 17:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps this section does need urgent attention. Scouting was almost used for military purposes, with B-P's blessing. There was a a full military standards award, including sniper training, set up by B-P. See the Red Feather award. B-P also, remember, produced at least one recruiting poster for WW1 and only really turned against war after this event - which, iirc, was also the time that the BBS lost most of their leaders, not the stated 1912 (unless you have a source proving otherwise). I may attack this area some point soon. DiverScout ( talk) 23:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Comments from a 2001 book (Education and warfare in Europe) and specifically from its section headed "Militarism and youth movements: Scouts, Komsomol, Hitler Youth":
"The Boy Scout movement deserves particular attention in the context of its role in the preparation of young people for war."
And:
"[...] the Boy Scout movement [...] added [...] militaristic elements such as military style uniforms, ranks, salutes and a form of medal system in badges and other symbolic regalia. There was even drill with long sticks as weapon substitutes." Page 80 -- http://books.google.com/books?id=JbecAAAAMAAJ -- Jandalhandler ( talk) 09:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Egel mentioned a controversy with uniforms:
"The uniform is one of the few aspects of Scouting that has some controversies, problems, criticisms in the Netherlands and probably the rest of Europe because people easily associate uniforms with military and fascist youth movements. This is one of the reasons that the European Scouting uniforms are so colorful."
Are there any other Scouting controversies about militarism? --
Jagz
22:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
"The United Kingdom Scout Association requires adult leaders to acknowledge a higher power, but does not necessarily exclude atheists from roles in Scouting, as long as the local Commissioner is satisfied that the applicant leader will support the values of Scouting and the investigation of faith by the young people in the movement."
But, from a document from the Scout Association, under the heading Key Policies, section e) Religious Policy:
"The atheistic absence of religious belief is a bar to becoming a Member of the Movement."
It really couldn't be any clearer. In Britain today, you can be Moslem, Sikh, Jewish, or one any of the hundreds of varieties of Christianity, and Scouting welcomes you with open arms, but if you are an atheist, you are unfit to help young people become better members of society. I only found out today, as I was completing the necessary forms to help our local scouts, that this astounding policy still exists. Forty-eight years ago, when I was excluded from moving up from the Cubs to the Scouts because I was an atheist, it was very upsetting. In the 21st Century, to find that there has been no progress from those days, apart from allowing other religions to join, is more than upsetting.
This needs to be reflected in this article, but I am too angry at present to do it. The Real Walrus ( talk) 18:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed upsetting. I chose to leave the SA as a leader 38 years ago, because I was an atheist, but the powers that be were not forcing me out. On the contrary they suggested I should stay as "deep down I did believe"! However, we need a detailed reference to where this is stated. It is also not clear that it applies to all "members" or just to leaders. It should not be added anywhere until we can see the source. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
has sketchy references to the US civil rights movement and the Indian resistance movement but I could'nt find anything about that in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.158.77.150 ( talk) 00:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The only mention of excluding people is "Boy Scouts of America (BSA) takes a strong position, excluding atheists and agnostics,[5][6]" - which is hardly detailed. It's a claim based on two footnotes. I daresay few leaders will take the trouble to read the footnotes.
Could we please mention individuals by name (or if there's a privacy issue in some other way) who have been excluded for being agnostic, i.e., for expressing their uncertainty about the existence of God? Also, is it also atheist boys who are excluded, or only atheist troop leaders or BSA officials? Please give details - especially if the intro says "detailed below". -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 14:21, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Page 11 World Organization of the Scout Movement – Triennial Report 1996-1999 Page 10 AN OVERVIEW OF THE TRIENNIUM, continued Scouts battle leprosy with WHO and AHM Child Protections A Memorandum of Understanding to implement the strategy for the elimination of leprosy as a public health problem was signed at the World Scout Bureau in July 1997 by three parties: the World Health Organization(Action Programme for the Elimination of Leprosy); the Munich based AHM Leprosy Relief Organization, and the World Organization of the Scout Movement. Partner organizations in ten countries, where leprosy is still prevalent, have been provided with material to implement this agreement: Bangladesh, Brazil, The Democratic Republic of Congo, India, Indonesia,Madagascar, Nepal, Philippines, Sudan and Tanzania. Scouting’s Involvement in the Elimination of Leprosy: Resource Material for National Scout Organizations has been prepared and circulated to associations concerned. The document highlights the educational dimension of this activity both for the Scouts and the communities involved.s In a message sent to all national Scout associations, the World Scout Committee expressed its concern that the Scout Movement - in every country- must actively work to protect all Scouting members, especially young people, from physical, sexual and emotional harm. All Scout organizations are expected to have policies and procedures which are intended to protect members by means of the recruitment and training of suitable leaders, and provisions for the removal of leaders found to be unsuitable.Responses to the World Committee message show that several national Scout associations have well developed protection programmes, and some of these are being used as models for adoption by other organizations and agencies.Some Scout associations indicated that they are presently reviewing their policies and procedures; unfortunately some Scout associations have not responded at all. It has been noted that some widely publicized cases of child abuse related to “scouting” were in groups calling themselves “scouts” but which are not members of the recognized national Scout association in their country; and there are also cases involving “former Scout leaders” whose offences had nothing to do with Scouting and who had been removed from Scouting - often many years ago - precisely because protection programmes were effective. The feedback is being reviewed to consider if more can be done at the world level to help national Scout organizations have effective protection programmes.Using the theme Scouts can help cure,Scouts in India and other countries are helping teach people how to recognize and test for early stages of leprosy.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)