![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Merge, other article too short and not likely to grow, merge and turn it into a redirect. Rlevse 23:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
merge, agree. Chris 23:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
13th Dublin is a substantial article in its own right and charts its development as a Scout Group rather than the development of Scouting in general. The same cannot be said for 14th Dublin. I suggest that 14th Dublin be merged into 13th Dublin-- Stevecull 14:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The 14th and 13th units are two complete separate units. They are both based in Rathfarnham and the 14th was established by leaders of the 13th but since then they have very different histories. There are 4 more units in Rathfarnham so an article about Scouting in Rathfarnham should not include the history of the 13th and the 14th but should be a more general artical. Merging 14th Dublin and 13th Dublin would insinuate they are thesame unit, which they clearly are not. I'm an active leader in the 13th Dublin unit and therefore do not know anything of the history of the 14th Dublin since it was established. I also can't tell you more about the other 3 units, but I've requested info from them as to write an article about Scouting in Rathfarnham. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the articles 13th Dublin, 14th Dublin and Scouting in Rathfarnham in a way that (I hope) all of us can live with. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the page about Scouting in Rathfarnham a bit since the history of the 13th Dublin is not the sole history of Scouting in that area. I'm looking for more info on the other troops. By my knowledge there were/are 6 troops: 13th Dublin, 14th Dublin, 31st Dublin, 68th Dublin, Rathfarnham Girl Guides and a troop in Ballyboden that no longer exists. I've contacted the leaders I know of all troops in the area ( Mountpellier Scout County and Three Rock Scout County) to enlighten me with any info they might posses. I beg all of you to leave the 13th Dublin and 14th Dublin articles intact.I will receive more info about the 14th soon so I'll be able to continuee their history from the moment they became a separate unit.I also started articles on the Scout Provinces in Ireland. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Jorgenpfhartogs
I've rewritten the articles 13th Dublin, 14th Dublin and Scouting in Rathfarnham in a way that (I hope) all of us can live with. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd rate this a weak B-class right now. What it needs to be a solid B-class is a beefed up "Sections and RAP" section; with a summary of each program with a link (now there's only one to Cubs) to a main article. Rlevse 17:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering if the names of the Sections: Scouting Ireland Beaver Scouts, Scouting Ireland Scouts, Scouting Ireland Venture Scouts should be renamed. The whole Scouting Ireland at the start of it takes from the actual name of the article. Maybe Beaver Scouts (Ireland), Scouts (Ireland) and Venture Scouts (Ireland) would be better? What do ya think? -- Ablaze ( talk) 16:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In respect to the other associations for Scouting in Ireland, although they will never have the number of members Scouting Ireland has, I think we should maintain [Scouting Ireland Beaver Scouts]], etc. Maybe a member of the Scouting Association Northern Ireland, the Baden Powell scouts, the Catholic Girl Guides or any other association can write something about their sections? I'll try to contact them to gather more info. Jorgenpfhartogs 16:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the inclusion of "The RAP process is causing a lot of trouble in Scouting Ireland. It's basically destroying the Patrol System and watering down Scouting.". I have no idea what the RAP process is. If someone can expand the initials, maybe it has a place in the article. Until then, it does not. -- Bduke 21:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland was neutral in WWII, so I find this very confusing. Perhaps it refers to scouting in the North?-- Malcohol 10:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The reference is correct. CBSI First Aid Section in Dublin formed the Headquarters Division of the new Irish Red Cross. Local Troops aided the Air Raid Precautions in their areas and all were involved in salvage, particularly of paper. 977mountains 15:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a section about the Centenary year with Museum Exhibition, Jamboree, People of the Year award etc etc..? Bogger ( talk) 23:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
The lede currently reads "Scouting Ireland is the national scouting association of Ireland, which is ambiguous as it is not clear, without clicking, whether it is the national scouting association of the Republic, or of Ireland as a whole. There is no reason - other than the irrational desire to avoid using the term - that this sentence should not be upfront and just say it is the national scouting association of the Republic of Ireland. This is one example where the ambiguity cannot be disputed, given the overlap in the organisation's roles - a national association for the Republic, but has branches across all of Ireland. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I'll compromise, but just out of good faith to the process that is being done to sort out the Ireland naming issue. I still think its fine with its current wording but I'll let you have what you want so we can move on from this.
MITH
00:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
May I step in and suggest:
"Scouting Ireland is the World Organization of the Scout Movement recognised Scouting association in the Republic of Ireland."
This is in line with similar articles, and obliquely acknowledges that there are other Scouting associations, notably the BPSA. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 01:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
As a total lay person to this subject (sorry! followed this from the Ireland Naming thingy) -- I don't quite follow the nature of the partnership between Scouting Ireland and the Scout Association in Northern Ireland as described in the lede. When the lede says this partnership "enable[s] the association to cover the entire island of Ireland" does that mean that members of Scouting Ireland in Northern Ireland are actually members of the NI Scout Association and they are simply connected to Scouting Ireland through the partnership of these two associations, or are some people in NI directly members of Scouting Ireland? Later, the article does give a number of members for Scouting Ireland which includes NI, so I get the impression it's more the later (ie, direct membership in NI of SI?), but is that accurate? I follow the issues of one organization recognized by the world org. per independent country, but I don't quite get what that means in practical terms about the existence of Scouting Ireland in NI: The "enable" part of the lede--does that mean SI needed the Scout Association in NI's permission to have members from NI? Or??... Nuclare ( talk) 01:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Back to the ROI issue in the lead. I have no problem with it being there as long as other editors also involved with this page also agree. If some editors aren't happy with it then I think the stable text has to remain. MITH 11:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
(UTC)
Now that Mooretwin's disruptive behaviour has been reverted we can go back to discussing the issue. Can editors who have given notes so far please return to this talk page so that consensus can be reached? So far there is none and we could really do with discussing if this is to move forward. MITH 21:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The history of this article is interesting. It originally wrongly stated that Scouting Ireland was the national scouting movemement for all Ireland, and explicitly stated "both Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland". So even at that stage there no problem had arisen with the term Republic of Ireland. I corrected this in January 2009 and other editors reverted, under the wrong assumption that it was, in fact the scouting association for all Ireland. This edit war was resolved with the intervention of editors with reliable sources. Unfortunately this edit by an anon on 24 February went against consensus, and so I reverted when it came to my attention on 20 March. Unfortunately, User:MusicintheHouse reverted the consensus text immediately, and this is the origin of the current edit war. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I've restored the article to the last version by User:Gadget850. My rationale for doing so is because he/she appears to be the last person to have edited the who has an actual interest in the article itself (and is not just hung up on what to call the Irish state).
Can MusicInTheHouse, Tfz and Mooretwin please take their discussion either to this talk page (if it is this article that they are concerned about) - or keep it on
WP:IECOLL (if it is only the name of the Irish state that is your concern).
Either way, please stop edit warring. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (
coṁrá)
13:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Adds: acutally I've just noticed the above and that you have. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 13:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The edit war on this article has to stop. I have fully protected the article and removed all reference to WOSM until such a time that the affiliation with WOSM is fully clarified by reference to reliable sources. Since WOSM recognises national associations, the bottom line has to be that Scouting Ireland is the WOSM approved association in the Republic and the Scout Association is the WOSM approved association in the UK, including Northern Ireland. If this is incorrect, we need a source and with that reference the article can be edited to add back reference to WOSM and then be unprotected. Please find such a source. -- Bduke (Discussion) 21:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I should say that I think the WOSM reference should be restored, but clarified that it relates only to the Republic. Mooretwin ( talk) 08:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I have now unprotected the article. It is clear from the above what has to be done. I have edited the lead to add reference to WOSM. Feel free to edit that as long as it is in the spirit of the discussion above. -- Bduke (Discussion) 02:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Does Scout Ireland have a website describing their organization? That should be the preferred reference point for any article. -- HighKing ( talk) 22:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
(ui)Glad you proved my point that the text back then was completely different to anything we have now. Use of Ireland was stable for two months (March to now)so no text you were involved in is "the consensus text". MITH 00:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Two of you have asked me on my talk page to comment on this issue. Let me start by reminding you of two things:-
I think the present wording:-
does that. "Ireland" links to the article on the state. The source does use the term "Ireland" and not "Republic of Ireland". I strongly urge you to keep the first sentence as is, and stop this edit war. Let us leave it until the broader discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration is resolved. Unless real arguments are presented here for changing the wording, then I will revert any changes and protect the article until a consensus for change is reached. The present wording is the best compromise for now. -- Bduke (Discussion) 01:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
BTW, In terms of how my 'intervention' was described above: when I said TFZ's version made it sound like the island of Ireland and Northern Ireland were two different places, I was talking about one specific wording that lasted for probably just a few hours. It started with something like "SI is a scouting assoc. on the island of Ireland. Its membership also extends to Northern Ireland...." That may not be the exact wording (and I don't want to search the edit warring to find it), but THAT was what I was referring to. I wasn't actually taking a stand on the ROI/Ireland issue, since I can sort of see it both ways.
I'm not suggesting any changes, but, out of curiousity, MITH, what language at the SI website acknowledges that SA "has control over NI"? I see the site saying they work in partnership with the UK SA in NI; is that SI acknowledging SA "has control over NI"? Nuclare ( talk) 05:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Just to clarify - I think there is much confusion between "Scouting Ireland" and membership of WOSM. The constitution of WOSM makes no references to "politicial boundaries" and appears to merely state that it will only recognize one organization per country. So if (as can frequently happen) more than one scouting organization exists in a country, only one of those can join WOSM in order to represent the country as the National Association. In the case of Scouting Ireland, this organization has members across all of the island of Ireland, and is the National Association representing the Irish state. Here is the list of countries from the international scouts website, and here is the section on Scouts Ireland website. -- HighKing ( talk) 08:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
References
Lets try this:
Scouting Ireland ( Irish: Gasóga na hÉireann) is the World Organization of the Scout Movement-recognised Scouting association of the country of Ireland, with a significant presence in Northern Ireland [1] Scouting Ireland is a voluntary, non-formal educational movement for young people. It is independent, non-political, open to all without distinction of origin, race, creed or gender, in accordance with the purpose, principles and method conceived by Robert Baden-Powell and as stated by WOSM.
---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 00:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The governing guideline here is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles). While "country of Ireland" is not one variations listed, I chose it because of its close inclusion with Northern Ireland in the sentence. While many national Scouting organizations (NSO) have units outside their recognized country, Scouting Ireland is unusual in the number of units in Northern Ireland. Scouting Ireland is recognized by WOSM as the NSO of the country of Ireland; since Northern Ireland is a political region of the UK, the WOSM recognized NSO is The Scout Association. That particular distinction can be made in the body of the the article, after we resolve this issue.
I have no issues with User:Gadget850's draft. It is an improvement. I do however, wonder whether it might be best to avoid the WOSM affiliation in the lede and deal with it later. Maybe the lede should just say that "Scouting Ireland ( Irish: Gasóga na hÉireann) is the largest Scouting organisation in Ireland with Scout Groups both in the Republic of Ireland and, along side the Scout Association, in Northern Ireland." I can however see that might raise other problems. I use the term "Republic of Ireland" merely because it is currently the name of the article about the State. I am concerned that we keep political POVs out of this and just describe what the situation is keeping within the Scouting spirit. I would also comment that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) is not very useful at present, as it is precisely that guideline that is being questioned, with an attempt to resolve it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. -- Bduke (Discussion) 23:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems now that Mooretwin's gone that this discussion has died down a bit. Just to finish it off, which version has the most consensus? Gadget's or Rannpháirtí anaithnid's? MITH
I don't actually like rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's version all that much. It goes back to the issue that I first raised here, which is that it confuses what the nature of SI membership is in Northern Ireland. RA's version makes it sound like the partnership with the UK's SA might be all that defines SI's presence in NI, which isn't true (as best as I now can tell). I think there might be value in Bduke's suggestion that the WOSM mention be delayed--or at the very least it doesn't need to be the very first thing said about this organization. Nuclare ( talk) 03:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
References
Two recent edits by an IP here and here show why we need clarity in this article. The IP clearly thinks SI is the national scouting association for Ireland (as a whole) and not the Republic of Ireland, just as Tfz and others have already demonstrated. Why should the POV of a certain committed group of editors, who for some reason have a visceral opposition to the commonly-used term "Republic of Ireland", prevent us from clearly stating in the lede that SI is the national scouting organisation for the Republic of Ireland? Mooretwin ( talk) 18:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Scouting Ireland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Merge, other article too short and not likely to grow, merge and turn it into a redirect. Rlevse 23:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
merge, agree. Chris 23:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
13th Dublin is a substantial article in its own right and charts its development as a Scout Group rather than the development of Scouting in general. The same cannot be said for 14th Dublin. I suggest that 14th Dublin be merged into 13th Dublin-- Stevecull 14:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The 14th and 13th units are two complete separate units. They are both based in Rathfarnham and the 14th was established by leaders of the 13th but since then they have very different histories. There are 4 more units in Rathfarnham so an article about Scouting in Rathfarnham should not include the history of the 13th and the 14th but should be a more general artical. Merging 14th Dublin and 13th Dublin would insinuate they are thesame unit, which they clearly are not. I'm an active leader in the 13th Dublin unit and therefore do not know anything of the history of the 14th Dublin since it was established. I also can't tell you more about the other 3 units, but I've requested info from them as to write an article about Scouting in Rathfarnham. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the articles 13th Dublin, 14th Dublin and Scouting in Rathfarnham in a way that (I hope) all of us can live with. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the page about Scouting in Rathfarnham a bit since the history of the 13th Dublin is not the sole history of Scouting in that area. I'm looking for more info on the other troops. By my knowledge there were/are 6 troops: 13th Dublin, 14th Dublin, 31st Dublin, 68th Dublin, Rathfarnham Girl Guides and a troop in Ballyboden that no longer exists. I've contacted the leaders I know of all troops in the area ( Mountpellier Scout County and Three Rock Scout County) to enlighten me with any info they might posses. I beg all of you to leave the 13th Dublin and 14th Dublin articles intact.I will receive more info about the 14th soon so I'll be able to continuee their history from the moment they became a separate unit.I also started articles on the Scout Provinces in Ireland. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Jorgenpfhartogs
I've rewritten the articles 13th Dublin, 14th Dublin and Scouting in Rathfarnham in a way that (I hope) all of us can live with. Jorgenpfhartogs 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd rate this a weak B-class right now. What it needs to be a solid B-class is a beefed up "Sections and RAP" section; with a summary of each program with a link (now there's only one to Cubs) to a main article. Rlevse 17:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering if the names of the Sections: Scouting Ireland Beaver Scouts, Scouting Ireland Scouts, Scouting Ireland Venture Scouts should be renamed. The whole Scouting Ireland at the start of it takes from the actual name of the article. Maybe Beaver Scouts (Ireland), Scouts (Ireland) and Venture Scouts (Ireland) would be better? What do ya think? -- Ablaze ( talk) 16:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In respect to the other associations for Scouting in Ireland, although they will never have the number of members Scouting Ireland has, I think we should maintain [Scouting Ireland Beaver Scouts]], etc. Maybe a member of the Scouting Association Northern Ireland, the Baden Powell scouts, the Catholic Girl Guides or any other association can write something about their sections? I'll try to contact them to gather more info. Jorgenpfhartogs 16:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the inclusion of "The RAP process is causing a lot of trouble in Scouting Ireland. It's basically destroying the Patrol System and watering down Scouting.". I have no idea what the RAP process is. If someone can expand the initials, maybe it has a place in the article. Until then, it does not. -- Bduke 21:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland was neutral in WWII, so I find this very confusing. Perhaps it refers to scouting in the North?-- Malcohol 10:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The reference is correct. CBSI First Aid Section in Dublin formed the Headquarters Division of the new Irish Red Cross. Local Troops aided the Air Raid Precautions in their areas and all were involved in salvage, particularly of paper. 977mountains 15:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a section about the Centenary year with Museum Exhibition, Jamboree, People of the Year award etc etc..? Bogger ( talk) 23:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
The lede currently reads "Scouting Ireland is the national scouting association of Ireland, which is ambiguous as it is not clear, without clicking, whether it is the national scouting association of the Republic, or of Ireland as a whole. There is no reason - other than the irrational desire to avoid using the term - that this sentence should not be upfront and just say it is the national scouting association of the Republic of Ireland. This is one example where the ambiguity cannot be disputed, given the overlap in the organisation's roles - a national association for the Republic, but has branches across all of Ireland. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I'll compromise, but just out of good faith to the process that is being done to sort out the Ireland naming issue. I still think its fine with its current wording but I'll let you have what you want so we can move on from this.
MITH
00:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
May I step in and suggest:
"Scouting Ireland is the World Organization of the Scout Movement recognised Scouting association in the Republic of Ireland."
This is in line with similar articles, and obliquely acknowledges that there are other Scouting associations, notably the BPSA. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 01:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
As a total lay person to this subject (sorry! followed this from the Ireland Naming thingy) -- I don't quite follow the nature of the partnership between Scouting Ireland and the Scout Association in Northern Ireland as described in the lede. When the lede says this partnership "enable[s] the association to cover the entire island of Ireland" does that mean that members of Scouting Ireland in Northern Ireland are actually members of the NI Scout Association and they are simply connected to Scouting Ireland through the partnership of these two associations, or are some people in NI directly members of Scouting Ireland? Later, the article does give a number of members for Scouting Ireland which includes NI, so I get the impression it's more the later (ie, direct membership in NI of SI?), but is that accurate? I follow the issues of one organization recognized by the world org. per independent country, but I don't quite get what that means in practical terms about the existence of Scouting Ireland in NI: The "enable" part of the lede--does that mean SI needed the Scout Association in NI's permission to have members from NI? Or??... Nuclare ( talk) 01:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Back to the ROI issue in the lead. I have no problem with it being there as long as other editors also involved with this page also agree. If some editors aren't happy with it then I think the stable text has to remain. MITH 11:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
(UTC)
Now that Mooretwin's disruptive behaviour has been reverted we can go back to discussing the issue. Can editors who have given notes so far please return to this talk page so that consensus can be reached? So far there is none and we could really do with discussing if this is to move forward. MITH 21:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The history of this article is interesting. It originally wrongly stated that Scouting Ireland was the national scouting movemement for all Ireland, and explicitly stated "both Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland". So even at that stage there no problem had arisen with the term Republic of Ireland. I corrected this in January 2009 and other editors reverted, under the wrong assumption that it was, in fact the scouting association for all Ireland. This edit war was resolved with the intervention of editors with reliable sources. Unfortunately this edit by an anon on 24 February went against consensus, and so I reverted when it came to my attention on 20 March. Unfortunately, User:MusicintheHouse reverted the consensus text immediately, and this is the origin of the current edit war. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I've restored the article to the last version by User:Gadget850. My rationale for doing so is because he/she appears to be the last person to have edited the who has an actual interest in the article itself (and is not just hung up on what to call the Irish state).
Can MusicInTheHouse, Tfz and Mooretwin please take their discussion either to this talk page (if it is this article that they are concerned about) - or keep it on
WP:IECOLL (if it is only the name of the Irish state that is your concern).
Either way, please stop edit warring. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (
coṁrá)
13:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Adds: acutally I've just noticed the above and that you have. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 13:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The edit war on this article has to stop. I have fully protected the article and removed all reference to WOSM until such a time that the affiliation with WOSM is fully clarified by reference to reliable sources. Since WOSM recognises national associations, the bottom line has to be that Scouting Ireland is the WOSM approved association in the Republic and the Scout Association is the WOSM approved association in the UK, including Northern Ireland. If this is incorrect, we need a source and with that reference the article can be edited to add back reference to WOSM and then be unprotected. Please find such a source. -- Bduke (Discussion) 21:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I should say that I think the WOSM reference should be restored, but clarified that it relates only to the Republic. Mooretwin ( talk) 08:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I have now unprotected the article. It is clear from the above what has to be done. I have edited the lead to add reference to WOSM. Feel free to edit that as long as it is in the spirit of the discussion above. -- Bduke (Discussion) 02:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Does Scout Ireland have a website describing their organization? That should be the preferred reference point for any article. -- HighKing ( talk) 22:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
(ui)Glad you proved my point that the text back then was completely different to anything we have now. Use of Ireland was stable for two months (March to now)so no text you were involved in is "the consensus text". MITH 00:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Two of you have asked me on my talk page to comment on this issue. Let me start by reminding you of two things:-
I think the present wording:-
does that. "Ireland" links to the article on the state. The source does use the term "Ireland" and not "Republic of Ireland". I strongly urge you to keep the first sentence as is, and stop this edit war. Let us leave it until the broader discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration is resolved. Unless real arguments are presented here for changing the wording, then I will revert any changes and protect the article until a consensus for change is reached. The present wording is the best compromise for now. -- Bduke (Discussion) 01:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
BTW, In terms of how my 'intervention' was described above: when I said TFZ's version made it sound like the island of Ireland and Northern Ireland were two different places, I was talking about one specific wording that lasted for probably just a few hours. It started with something like "SI is a scouting assoc. on the island of Ireland. Its membership also extends to Northern Ireland...." That may not be the exact wording (and I don't want to search the edit warring to find it), but THAT was what I was referring to. I wasn't actually taking a stand on the ROI/Ireland issue, since I can sort of see it both ways.
I'm not suggesting any changes, but, out of curiousity, MITH, what language at the SI website acknowledges that SA "has control over NI"? I see the site saying they work in partnership with the UK SA in NI; is that SI acknowledging SA "has control over NI"? Nuclare ( talk) 05:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Just to clarify - I think there is much confusion between "Scouting Ireland" and membership of WOSM. The constitution of WOSM makes no references to "politicial boundaries" and appears to merely state that it will only recognize one organization per country. So if (as can frequently happen) more than one scouting organization exists in a country, only one of those can join WOSM in order to represent the country as the National Association. In the case of Scouting Ireland, this organization has members across all of the island of Ireland, and is the National Association representing the Irish state. Here is the list of countries from the international scouts website, and here is the section on Scouts Ireland website. -- HighKing ( talk) 08:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
References
Lets try this:
Scouting Ireland ( Irish: Gasóga na hÉireann) is the World Organization of the Scout Movement-recognised Scouting association of the country of Ireland, with a significant presence in Northern Ireland [1] Scouting Ireland is a voluntary, non-formal educational movement for young people. It is independent, non-political, open to all without distinction of origin, race, creed or gender, in accordance with the purpose, principles and method conceived by Robert Baden-Powell and as stated by WOSM.
---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 00:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The governing guideline here is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles). While "country of Ireland" is not one variations listed, I chose it because of its close inclusion with Northern Ireland in the sentence. While many national Scouting organizations (NSO) have units outside their recognized country, Scouting Ireland is unusual in the number of units in Northern Ireland. Scouting Ireland is recognized by WOSM as the NSO of the country of Ireland; since Northern Ireland is a political region of the UK, the WOSM recognized NSO is The Scout Association. That particular distinction can be made in the body of the the article, after we resolve this issue.
I have no issues with User:Gadget850's draft. It is an improvement. I do however, wonder whether it might be best to avoid the WOSM affiliation in the lede and deal with it later. Maybe the lede should just say that "Scouting Ireland ( Irish: Gasóga na hÉireann) is the largest Scouting organisation in Ireland with Scout Groups both in the Republic of Ireland and, along side the Scout Association, in Northern Ireland." I can however see that might raise other problems. I use the term "Republic of Ireland" merely because it is currently the name of the article about the State. I am concerned that we keep political POVs out of this and just describe what the situation is keeping within the Scouting spirit. I would also comment that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) is not very useful at present, as it is precisely that guideline that is being questioned, with an attempt to resolve it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. -- Bduke (Discussion) 23:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems now that Mooretwin's gone that this discussion has died down a bit. Just to finish it off, which version has the most consensus? Gadget's or Rannpháirtí anaithnid's? MITH
I don't actually like rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's version all that much. It goes back to the issue that I first raised here, which is that it confuses what the nature of SI membership is in Northern Ireland. RA's version makes it sound like the partnership with the UK's SA might be all that defines SI's presence in NI, which isn't true (as best as I now can tell). I think there might be value in Bduke's suggestion that the WOSM mention be delayed--or at the very least it doesn't need to be the very first thing said about this organization. Nuclare ( talk) 03:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
References
Two recent edits by an IP here and here show why we need clarity in this article. The IP clearly thinks SI is the national scouting association for Ireland (as a whole) and not the Republic of Ireland, just as Tfz and others have already demonstrated. Why should the POV of a certain committed group of editors, who for some reason have a visceral opposition to the commonly-used term "Republic of Ireland", prevent us from clearly stating in the lede that SI is the national scouting organisation for the Republic of Ireland? Mooretwin ( talk) 18:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Scouting Ireland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)