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Why the "High Middle Ages"? This seems to be about Scotland in the Middle Ages in general. Adam Bishop 17:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I notice a preceding article is hoped for, the red link being to Dark Age Scotland: links to the Dark Ages get quickly changed to {Early) Middle Ages, which would relate to a division between Early, High and Late.
Understandably, the article focusses on Alba with other areas appearing only as they're conquered: it would perhaps be clearer if the intro spelled out their status at the start of the period, and I'll think about rephrasing that bit of the intro.
There's mention of the introduction of primogeniture, but none I've found of the preceding system which Peter Beresford Ellis goes into great detail about as a complex system of
tanistry involving election of chieftains and low and high kings from hereditary elites: any reason for not referring to this system? Overall, very interesting. ...
dave souza
19:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello. Nice job. I have not read it all yet, but based on the sources it appears to be a great addition. -- Stbalbach 19:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how to classify art in Scotland during this period. Other articles cover for example Hiberno-Saxon art and Celtic art which preceded the HMA. Was there a notable art movement in Scotland after the 10th century, or was it overshadowed by what was happening further south and in Ireland? -- Stbalbach 19:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I know that I am not about to make myself very popular with Calgacus, but can I just raise my head tentatively above the parapet, and gently suggest that, although an excellent article, this subject would perhaps (and it is only a suggestion) benefit from being split into sub-articles. 110 kilobytes really is pushing the Wikipedia envelope.-- Mais oui! 22:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Where does the quote about the First Crusade come from? I mean, originally, from which chronicle or wherever...it looks interesting. And on a related note, do you know the book "Scotland and the Crusades", by Alan Macquarrie? (I've never had an opportunity to look at it myself, although I suspect my question would be answered there, haha) Adam Bishop 05:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I feel that this section gives unnecessary complex detail already in the linked article of the same name, and emphasises the idea that this is a history of Alba rather than the whole of what became Scotland. It would be better to have a brief outline of how immediately post-Roman the Caledonii? to the north of the Antonine wall became Alba - brief summary of Picts / Gaelic Scots as here and mention of Viking incursions, while the friendly buffer tribal areas became the Kingdom of the North, thence Kingdom of Strathclyde, Galloway and Northumbria. This should be much shorter than the current section, and main articles linked would be Scotland in the Early Middle Ages and Origins of the Kingdom of Alba. I'll try to draft this soon. ... dave souza: talk 19:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
(Comment: Calgacus says: "The original draft of this article had a section on origin mythology". I think that the first draft of this article was fantastic, if far too long. I know that Calgacus has saved what he can by creating spin-off articles, but I'm just wondering if there are not a few more bits and pieces that he, or we, ought to salvage as stub articles. For example, I myself wholesale nicked his first draft section on Burghs and added it as the "Origins" section to the Royal burgh article (which I am delighted to see that Calgacus has since further expanded). Are there other bits that we should salvage and cut and paste elsewhere, or create as stubs? This has nothing to do with your discussion, just a tangential thought.)-- Mais oui! 20:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've boldly tried to edit this section to be clearer to the uninitiated, but haven't yet sorted out reference links (those remaining could be removed here, and confined to the main article) or trimmed the viking reference in the next section. Will return to this in the morning. ... dave souza: talk 00:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I am finding the system of notes used in this article virtually unintelligible. Therefore I cite here: Lynch, Michael, Scotland: A New History, Pimlico 1992; page 62 re origin of burgh charters. Laurel Bush 10:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC).
Thanks for the concern. Ref 43 seems to direct to 44. Perhaps 44 is where I should include my citation, top of this talk section. Laurel Bush 10:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC).
This article is currently the Featured article at Portal:Scotland.-- Mais oui! 15:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Well done, Calgacus and co. This is indeed an excellent article. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
According to the text: the crowds are royal singers, though Dictonary.com translate the term to "An ancient Celtic stringed instrument that was bowed or plucked. Also called crwth." That sounds like some sort of a fiddle to me. Or? I am in the process of translating the article to Norwegian, and it is possible to leave a message at my userpage. -- Finn Bjo
There's a big translations of Scotland in the High Middle Ages going on in the French Wikipedia, and the main translators are stuck with a sentence "It was a government of gift-giving and bardic lawmen". So they called on me (as one of the few regulars there with English as my mother tongue) to have a look to see if I could gather any sense from the sentence. I've explained what all the words mean, and have read the whole article, but that "It was a government of gift-giving and bardic lawmen" seems to stick out like a sore thumb. It doesn't seem to fit in the article. Was the government at the time throwing presents around, and the lawyers and lawmakers were singing all the time? I don't get it! -- Won der fool 11:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I would like to be sure about the meaning of this sentence "The reigns of both Edgar and his successor Alexander are obscure in comparison with their successors" (end of 3.1). I thought this sentence meant that their reigns were not very well-known. But somebody thinks that their reigns might have been bad. I did not think about that but that's right the word "obscure" is not obvious to us. Who is right? --Thanks
I intend to begin this in the near future, commencing where this article leaves off and ending with the death of James IV. The period after the Wars of Independence in particular is a major blind spot at present: the treatment it receives in the History of Scotland is sketchy at best. I have one small concern. My chief interest-and area of expertise-lies in political history. I would not therfore choose to explore some of the cultural and linguistic issues touched on in this article, which will obviously mean a complete absence of intellectual continuity. Not, I suppose, that that is a major problem in a house of a thousand styles! Rcpaterson 04:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks! Rcpaterson 05:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I take it hosting in the second paragraph under headline Scotland in the High Middle Ages#Society refers to the gathering of a host (army). I'm sure it does not refer to any of the computer-related subjects you'll find by clicking hosting... Finnrind 20:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I note that there is no mention of sport in the article at present. Would hunting, falconry, archery etc have been popular?
Are there any sources for the origins of golf, or similar games, during this period? How about other ball games?
Any info appreciated. Ta. -- Mais oui! 08:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this is an excellent article, but I think more could be said about the borders. Not only did Scotland gain influence over the Hebrides in this period in the North, and Scottish earls rule Norwegian Orkney, but in the south, the border shifted between the Firth of Forth and the River Ribble at different points. Indeed I believe that David made his capital at Carlisle. However the maps don't reflect this. With the intermittent control of lands in modern day England, Scotland must have attained its largest area on the Mainland within this period. -- MacRusgail 04:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
It is a long time since this article gained WP:FA status. I am not sure it still deserves that status at the moment. Specifically, there are quite a few WP:MOS issues and some inconsistencies in citations, there are also now a lot of unsourced statements, but perhaps the biggest problem is that at times this reads rather like an essay. If anyone can help improve the article up to FA standards that would be extremely helpful.-- SabreBD ( talk) 16:41, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I've nominated the article at FAR Brad ( talk) 17:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The article currently has a combination of long and short forms of writing centuries (e. g. 13th century vs thirteenth century). I believe either is allowed by the MOS, but we should pick one. My general preference is for the long form, but I am happy to apply either. Any views?-- SabreBD ( talk) 16:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Now that the text is pretty stable (hopefully), I have made a few changes to the illustrations, filling in some of the gaps and trying to make things more appropriate to the text. I am rarely committed to individual pics, so if anyone has alternative suggestions, please go ahead and make them. There can be problems with illustrations and text on different displays and I will check this, but if anyone sees a problem please let me know. I also wonder if, as nice as it is to see the spectacular photo of Dunnottar Castle at the top of the page, does anyone object to it being moved so that the Scottish History infobox can be at the top, where it is on most of the articles in this series?-- SabreBD ( talk) 10:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
An issue which is not given much prominence here is the consequence of the Treaty of York. As a result The Kingdom of Scotland (or perhaps more truthfully just the King of the Scots) incorporated a huge chunk of northern England, and an equally huge number of its English Anglo-phone inhabitants - who had already lived there for 700 years, exactly as long as the invading Gaelic Irish 'Scots' had been established in their kingdom of Scotland, or Kingdom of the Scots. This is why Scotland's national language is English (99%)and not Gaelic (1%). Indeed it's why the Scottish capital is in Edinburgh and not Scone or elsewhere within the original 'Scotland proper'. It seems to me perfectly possible to argue that ever since then Scotland, despite its name, has actually been an Anglo-saxon country with a Celtic fringe: its common heritage and culture is almost indistinguishable from that of England because most of it (or rather most of the populous parts i.e. the lowlands) was once part of England. Steve — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.10.61 ( talk) 10:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmm.Hard to be certain exactly what the Treaty of York did do. But here's part of the Wikipedia page on it, which does suggest that the King of the Scots got given a significant amount of land in Northern England. Cassandra:
"The King of England grants the King of Scotland certain lands within Northumberland and Cumberland, to be held by him and his successor kings of Scotland in feudal tenure with certain rights exempting them from obligations common in feudal relationships, and with the Scottish Steward sitting in Justice regarding certain issues that may arise, and these, too, are hereditary to the King of Scotland's heirs, and regarding these the King of Scotland shall not be answerable to an English court of law in any suit". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.239.185 ( talk) 13:09, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The sentence "There also developed obligations that produced smaller numbers of feudal troops." has no stated source. It does not summarize the paragraph which it leads off. The sentence is passive, lacking an actor. The "obligations" referred to seem to be feudal obligations imposed by the Norman influence. Could someone supply the source so that the sentence's meaning could become clear? -- Bejnar ( talk) 22:27, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Scotland in the High Middle Ages article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Scotland in the High Middle Ages is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 11, 2006. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A summary of this article appears in Scotland. |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why the "High Middle Ages"? This seems to be about Scotland in the Middle Ages in general. Adam Bishop 17:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I notice a preceding article is hoped for, the red link being to Dark Age Scotland: links to the Dark Ages get quickly changed to {Early) Middle Ages, which would relate to a division between Early, High and Late.
Understandably, the article focusses on Alba with other areas appearing only as they're conquered: it would perhaps be clearer if the intro spelled out their status at the start of the period, and I'll think about rephrasing that bit of the intro.
There's mention of the introduction of primogeniture, but none I've found of the preceding system which Peter Beresford Ellis goes into great detail about as a complex system of
tanistry involving election of chieftains and low and high kings from hereditary elites: any reason for not referring to this system? Overall, very interesting. ...
dave souza
19:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello. Nice job. I have not read it all yet, but based on the sources it appears to be a great addition. -- Stbalbach 19:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how to classify art in Scotland during this period. Other articles cover for example Hiberno-Saxon art and Celtic art which preceded the HMA. Was there a notable art movement in Scotland after the 10th century, or was it overshadowed by what was happening further south and in Ireland? -- Stbalbach 19:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I know that I am not about to make myself very popular with Calgacus, but can I just raise my head tentatively above the parapet, and gently suggest that, although an excellent article, this subject would perhaps (and it is only a suggestion) benefit from being split into sub-articles. 110 kilobytes really is pushing the Wikipedia envelope.-- Mais oui! 22:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Where does the quote about the First Crusade come from? I mean, originally, from which chronicle or wherever...it looks interesting. And on a related note, do you know the book "Scotland and the Crusades", by Alan Macquarrie? (I've never had an opportunity to look at it myself, although I suspect my question would be answered there, haha) Adam Bishop 05:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I feel that this section gives unnecessary complex detail already in the linked article of the same name, and emphasises the idea that this is a history of Alba rather than the whole of what became Scotland. It would be better to have a brief outline of how immediately post-Roman the Caledonii? to the north of the Antonine wall became Alba - brief summary of Picts / Gaelic Scots as here and mention of Viking incursions, while the friendly buffer tribal areas became the Kingdom of the North, thence Kingdom of Strathclyde, Galloway and Northumbria. This should be much shorter than the current section, and main articles linked would be Scotland in the Early Middle Ages and Origins of the Kingdom of Alba. I'll try to draft this soon. ... dave souza: talk 19:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
(Comment: Calgacus says: "The original draft of this article had a section on origin mythology". I think that the first draft of this article was fantastic, if far too long. I know that Calgacus has saved what he can by creating spin-off articles, but I'm just wondering if there are not a few more bits and pieces that he, or we, ought to salvage as stub articles. For example, I myself wholesale nicked his first draft section on Burghs and added it as the "Origins" section to the Royal burgh article (which I am delighted to see that Calgacus has since further expanded). Are there other bits that we should salvage and cut and paste elsewhere, or create as stubs? This has nothing to do with your discussion, just a tangential thought.)-- Mais oui! 20:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've boldly tried to edit this section to be clearer to the uninitiated, but haven't yet sorted out reference links (those remaining could be removed here, and confined to the main article) or trimmed the viking reference in the next section. Will return to this in the morning. ... dave souza: talk 00:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I am finding the system of notes used in this article virtually unintelligible. Therefore I cite here: Lynch, Michael, Scotland: A New History, Pimlico 1992; page 62 re origin of burgh charters. Laurel Bush 10:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC).
Thanks for the concern. Ref 43 seems to direct to 44. Perhaps 44 is where I should include my citation, top of this talk section. Laurel Bush 10:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC).
This article is currently the Featured article at Portal:Scotland.-- Mais oui! 15:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Well done, Calgacus and co. This is indeed an excellent article. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
According to the text: the crowds are royal singers, though Dictonary.com translate the term to "An ancient Celtic stringed instrument that was bowed or plucked. Also called crwth." That sounds like some sort of a fiddle to me. Or? I am in the process of translating the article to Norwegian, and it is possible to leave a message at my userpage. -- Finn Bjo
There's a big translations of Scotland in the High Middle Ages going on in the French Wikipedia, and the main translators are stuck with a sentence "It was a government of gift-giving and bardic lawmen". So they called on me (as one of the few regulars there with English as my mother tongue) to have a look to see if I could gather any sense from the sentence. I've explained what all the words mean, and have read the whole article, but that "It was a government of gift-giving and bardic lawmen" seems to stick out like a sore thumb. It doesn't seem to fit in the article. Was the government at the time throwing presents around, and the lawyers and lawmakers were singing all the time? I don't get it! -- Won der fool 11:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I would like to be sure about the meaning of this sentence "The reigns of both Edgar and his successor Alexander are obscure in comparison with their successors" (end of 3.1). I thought this sentence meant that their reigns were not very well-known. But somebody thinks that their reigns might have been bad. I did not think about that but that's right the word "obscure" is not obvious to us. Who is right? --Thanks
I intend to begin this in the near future, commencing where this article leaves off and ending with the death of James IV. The period after the Wars of Independence in particular is a major blind spot at present: the treatment it receives in the History of Scotland is sketchy at best. I have one small concern. My chief interest-and area of expertise-lies in political history. I would not therfore choose to explore some of the cultural and linguistic issues touched on in this article, which will obviously mean a complete absence of intellectual continuity. Not, I suppose, that that is a major problem in a house of a thousand styles! Rcpaterson 04:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks! Rcpaterson 05:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I take it hosting in the second paragraph under headline Scotland in the High Middle Ages#Society refers to the gathering of a host (army). I'm sure it does not refer to any of the computer-related subjects you'll find by clicking hosting... Finnrind 20:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I note that there is no mention of sport in the article at present. Would hunting, falconry, archery etc have been popular?
Are there any sources for the origins of golf, or similar games, during this period? How about other ball games?
Any info appreciated. Ta. -- Mais oui! 08:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this is an excellent article, but I think more could be said about the borders. Not only did Scotland gain influence over the Hebrides in this period in the North, and Scottish earls rule Norwegian Orkney, but in the south, the border shifted between the Firth of Forth and the River Ribble at different points. Indeed I believe that David made his capital at Carlisle. However the maps don't reflect this. With the intermittent control of lands in modern day England, Scotland must have attained its largest area on the Mainland within this period. -- MacRusgail 04:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
It is a long time since this article gained WP:FA status. I am not sure it still deserves that status at the moment. Specifically, there are quite a few WP:MOS issues and some inconsistencies in citations, there are also now a lot of unsourced statements, but perhaps the biggest problem is that at times this reads rather like an essay. If anyone can help improve the article up to FA standards that would be extremely helpful.-- SabreBD ( talk) 16:41, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I've nominated the article at FAR Brad ( talk) 17:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The article currently has a combination of long and short forms of writing centuries (e. g. 13th century vs thirteenth century). I believe either is allowed by the MOS, but we should pick one. My general preference is for the long form, but I am happy to apply either. Any views?-- SabreBD ( talk) 16:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Now that the text is pretty stable (hopefully), I have made a few changes to the illustrations, filling in some of the gaps and trying to make things more appropriate to the text. I am rarely committed to individual pics, so if anyone has alternative suggestions, please go ahead and make them. There can be problems with illustrations and text on different displays and I will check this, but if anyone sees a problem please let me know. I also wonder if, as nice as it is to see the spectacular photo of Dunnottar Castle at the top of the page, does anyone object to it being moved so that the Scottish History infobox can be at the top, where it is on most of the articles in this series?-- SabreBD ( talk) 10:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
An issue which is not given much prominence here is the consequence of the Treaty of York. As a result The Kingdom of Scotland (or perhaps more truthfully just the King of the Scots) incorporated a huge chunk of northern England, and an equally huge number of its English Anglo-phone inhabitants - who had already lived there for 700 years, exactly as long as the invading Gaelic Irish 'Scots' had been established in their kingdom of Scotland, or Kingdom of the Scots. This is why Scotland's national language is English (99%)and not Gaelic (1%). Indeed it's why the Scottish capital is in Edinburgh and not Scone or elsewhere within the original 'Scotland proper'. It seems to me perfectly possible to argue that ever since then Scotland, despite its name, has actually been an Anglo-saxon country with a Celtic fringe: its common heritage and culture is almost indistinguishable from that of England because most of it (or rather most of the populous parts i.e. the lowlands) was once part of England. Steve — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.10.61 ( talk) 10:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmm.Hard to be certain exactly what the Treaty of York did do. But here's part of the Wikipedia page on it, which does suggest that the King of the Scots got given a significant amount of land in Northern England. Cassandra:
"The King of England grants the King of Scotland certain lands within Northumberland and Cumberland, to be held by him and his successor kings of Scotland in feudal tenure with certain rights exempting them from obligations common in feudal relationships, and with the Scottish Steward sitting in Justice regarding certain issues that may arise, and these, too, are hereditary to the King of Scotland's heirs, and regarding these the King of Scotland shall not be answerable to an English court of law in any suit". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.239.185 ( talk) 13:09, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The sentence "There also developed obligations that produced smaller numbers of feudal troops." has no stated source. It does not summarize the paragraph which it leads off. The sentence is passive, lacking an actor. The "obligations" referred to seem to be feudal obligations imposed by the Norman influence. Could someone supply the source so that the sentence's meaning could become clear? -- Bejnar ( talk) 22:27, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
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