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The Scotland, England and Wales articles all currently display the Coat of Arms of the respective countries: lion rampant, three lions and dragon shield. Someone is trying to apply the UK Coat of Arms to the Scotland page. Why? Surely the correct place for the UK Coat of Arms is the UK page, or the UK Coat of Arms page?-- Mais oui! 21:02, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The sv:Skottland article was vandalised today. The vandal started by removing the Arms of Scotland, but clearly decided to vent their wrath by further removing maps and other information from the page and removing all formatting. It strikes me as a tad coincidental that that should happen just as User:Astrotrain decided to remove the Scottish Arms from en: wiki. If any administrator is reading this, the vandal at sv: used IP 194.103.228.51 This page is about Scotland, not just about Scotland as a constituent country of the UK, but about the country from its unification in the 9th century, and before that. Before trying to censure out of existence the Arms of Scotland, I would like User:Astrotrain to visit the England page and try to remove their national coat of arms: the three lions. Please come back afterwards and tell us how you got on.-- Mais oui! 21:53, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Might I suggest that a solution might be to put the historic arms of Scotland, which have been disused since 1606 on the
History of Scotland page, and put the current 'Royal Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland' here, since they are in current use. --
Doc
(?) 22:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Note that "194.103.228.51" is an IP address registered to sv:Lerums kommun in Sweden. Perhaps the inhabitants have declared war on Scotland and this is their first salvo, <grin>. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I have initiated a section on the UK wikipedian's page for this issue, as its outcome affects the England page and the Wales page too: Wikipedia_talk:UK_Wikipedians'_notice_board#England_page.2C_Scotland_page.2C_Wales_page:_National_Arms_or_UK_Arms
To quote myself: it's just sensible that the infobox for x contain symbols of x, not of X. Doops | talk 21:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
This revert war is getting silly and Astrotrain is periously close to breaking the 3RR. Personally, I don't much care which arms go here (what about both?) but we need to broaden this discussion out. I'm going to list this debate for an RfC - I suggest all those involved sit back and wait to see if the wider community is in support. -- Doc (?) 22:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Any new voices please state your opinion under this:
Since we're dealing with coats of arms, we have to take a (or an, if you're British) heraldic point of view; and by it, Mais Oui is perfectly right. Every heraldic manual I've ever seen has referred to the arms Astrotrain keeps adding as something along the lines of "the royal arms for Scotland" or even "the royal arms as used in Scotland." It is perfectly clear that they are actually the exact same coat of arms as the ones to be found at Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom.
"How can that be?" you ask; "those arms are visibly different." The answer is that they are different versions of the same arms. Let me give you an example. Suppose that my father has a coat of arms and so does my mother (either she was granted it in her own right or she had no brothers to pop in before her). I then inherit both of their arms on their deaths. Now I can easily quarter their arms (in the same way that England, Scotland, and Ireland are quartered on the UK arms); but what do I do with the fact that they each had a crest sitting up on top? (Well, unless she was really modern, my mother didn't use hers; but her father did and I inherited it through her.) [Edit: I find, on consulting Fox-Davies, that, a century ago when he was writing, it was considerd impossible to inherit a crst through a woman, since she had no way of displaying it (Fox-Davies criticizes this reasoning). However, he writes that it was certainly possible in England before the Stuart era; and even thereafter often occurred de facto when the son of an heiress got a Royal License to adopt her surname and was accorded rights to her father's crest as part of the deal. Plus of course nowadays women may be granted crests. Certainly there are plenty of people entitled to more than one crest.
Doops |
talk 19:53, 15 September 2005 (UTC)] Some people entitled to multiple crests include them all when displaying their arms. Others think this looks silly and just choose one. Let's say that I like my mother's crest better and choose it. Then I die; and my son prefers my father's old crest. Is it available for him to use? Yes! Just because I didn't use it doesn't mean it stopped existing; it was still there, invisibly. Likewise with my parents' supporters (if they were so lucky as to have these rare honors). Say my dad's are an aardvark and a beaver while my mother's are a yak and a zebra. I'm free to choose any two I want; and if I use the aardvark and the yak, my son is free to choose the beaver & zebra instead if he prefers. The point of all this: a person's arms include all those symbols to which he/she is heraldically entitled; the visual display of them is entirely up to that person. The queen has one coat of arms, which she chooses to display differently in Scotland than she does elsewhere; in Scotland the Scottish elements have pride of place.
Until devolution, it's clear why the Scottish Office in Westminster used the queen's arms for Scotland: they are a ministry of her UK government. Now I admit that their use by the new Scottish parliament is a little confusing; if they're a national Scottish institution, what are they doing with English and Irish symbols on their arms? Well, first, it's not their arms — it's the queen's, which they're using by permission and as her delegates. And secondly, I'd guess that the possibility of using the plain lion rampant, if it even occurred to them at all, was rejected because it could be interpreted as a sign of Scottish independence.
Could it be so interpreted here? No, we're not an official government institution displaying it as our symbol; we're reporting in the third person on somebody else's symbol. Whose? Not the parliament's but the country's. A country is more than its government; and so while the lion rampant is obviously not used by the Scottish parliament, it is a national symbol of Scotland. And, in fact, to a herald, it is Scotland. It is absolutely & 100% analogous to the three lions in England — the old royal arms of the kingdom, now never used because the kingdom has acceeded to a United Kingdom. Doops | talk 18:47, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have created Kingdom of Scotland as a separate article (currently, just a stub). I think some of the information in the Scotland article would be better located there. -- JW1805 18:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have created a "National Symbols of Scotland" page that allows discussion of the symbols such as the Lion Rampant that are used to represent Scotland. This allows the distinct Scottish symbols to be discussed, while allowing the coat of arms as used in Scotland to be shown, in line with the other country pages. Hopefully this will be an accepted compromise Astrotrain 20:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
:"in line with the other country pages" is a total perversion of the truth: both the England page and Wales page show their own national symbols, not the symbols of the UK.-- Mais oui! 20:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Grcampbell has the true compromise: show the Scottish Standard in the infobox, but include the Arms of the United Kingdom under the Head of State section. I liked it, but Astrotrain didn't. He has deleted the arms of Scotland and inserted the arms of the United Kingdom for about the tenth time!-- Mais oui! 20:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
No, not that kind of bullet! I assure you, my intentions are entirely amicable. I just want to try to figure out where Astrotrain and I are misunderstanding each other; and I thought the best way would be to make a bulleted list of short, specific questions so I can get Astrotrain's short, specific answers to them. Thanks. Doops | talk 21:01, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to request that the parties involved refrain from their revert war on the Arms of Scotland issue until they reach a decision here. One of you has already violated the 3RR (by a few minutes) and the other has come within a few minutes of doing the same. The revert war makes you both look childish, even though the passionate discussions here seems to indicate that you are both mature and eloquent. Please focus on resolving the issue here (or through mediation) rather than fighting it out with reverts. Thanks in advance for your cooperation. -- GraemeL (talk) 11:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
On the whole, I think that the use of the lion rampant seems more reasonable. The Arms of Dominion as used in Scotland do not represent Scotland; they are only the arms of HM The Queen, the monarch of the United Kingdom. By analogy, I expect that we would use the three lions passant guardant for England, not the Arms of Dominion. -- Emsworth 00:04, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
At no point did I break the "3 revert rule". Since this dispute is getting really ugly, I will not be wasting my time on this article. Let the abusive arrogance of Mais Oui and the amateur heralidic authority of Doops decide what is the coat of arms. Astrotrain 23:11, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
The Scotland, England and Wales articles all currently display the Coat of Arms of the respective countries: lion rampant, three lions and dragon shield. Someone is trying to apply the UK Coat of Arms to the Scotland page. Why? Surely the correct place for the UK Coat of Arms is the UK page, or the UK Coat of Arms page?-- Mais oui! 21:02, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The sv:Skottland article was vandalised today. The vandal started by removing the Arms of Scotland, but clearly decided to vent their wrath by further removing maps and other information from the page and removing all formatting. It strikes me as a tad coincidental that that should happen just as User:Astrotrain decided to remove the Scottish Arms from en: wiki. If any administrator is reading this, the vandal at sv: used IP 194.103.228.51 This page is about Scotland, not just about Scotland as a constituent country of the UK, but about the country from its unification in the 9th century, and before that. Before trying to censure out of existence the Arms of Scotland, I would like User:Astrotrain to visit the England page and try to remove their national coat of arms: the three lions. Please come back afterwards and tell us how you got on.-- Mais oui! 21:53, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Might I suggest that a solution might be to put the historic arms of Scotland, which have been disused since 1606 on the
History of Scotland page, and put the current 'Royal Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland' here, since they are in current use. --
Doc
(?) 22:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Note that "194.103.228.51" is an IP address registered to sv:Lerums kommun in Sweden. Perhaps the inhabitants have declared war on Scotland and this is their first salvo, <grin>. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I have initiated a section on the UK wikipedian's page for this issue, as its outcome affects the England page and the Wales page too: Wikipedia_talk:UK_Wikipedians'_notice_board#England_page.2C_Scotland_page.2C_Wales_page:_National_Arms_or_UK_Arms
To quote myself: it's just sensible that the infobox for x contain symbols of x, not of X. Doops | talk 21:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
This revert war is getting silly and Astrotrain is periously close to breaking the 3RR. Personally, I don't much care which arms go here (what about both?) but we need to broaden this discussion out. I'm going to list this debate for an RfC - I suggest all those involved sit back and wait to see if the wider community is in support. -- Doc (?) 22:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Any new voices please state your opinion under this:
Since we're dealing with coats of arms, we have to take a (or an, if you're British) heraldic point of view; and by it, Mais Oui is perfectly right. Every heraldic manual I've ever seen has referred to the arms Astrotrain keeps adding as something along the lines of "the royal arms for Scotland" or even "the royal arms as used in Scotland." It is perfectly clear that they are actually the exact same coat of arms as the ones to be found at Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom.
"How can that be?" you ask; "those arms are visibly different." The answer is that they are different versions of the same arms. Let me give you an example. Suppose that my father has a coat of arms and so does my mother (either she was granted it in her own right or she had no brothers to pop in before her). I then inherit both of their arms on their deaths. Now I can easily quarter their arms (in the same way that England, Scotland, and Ireland are quartered on the UK arms); but what do I do with the fact that they each had a crest sitting up on top? (Well, unless she was really modern, my mother didn't use hers; but her father did and I inherited it through her.) [Edit: I find, on consulting Fox-Davies, that, a century ago when he was writing, it was considerd impossible to inherit a crst through a woman, since she had no way of displaying it (Fox-Davies criticizes this reasoning). However, he writes that it was certainly possible in England before the Stuart era; and even thereafter often occurred de facto when the son of an heiress got a Royal License to adopt her surname and was accorded rights to her father's crest as part of the deal. Plus of course nowadays women may be granted crests. Certainly there are plenty of people entitled to more than one crest.
Doops |
talk 19:53, 15 September 2005 (UTC)] Some people entitled to multiple crests include them all when displaying their arms. Others think this looks silly and just choose one. Let's say that I like my mother's crest better and choose it. Then I die; and my son prefers my father's old crest. Is it available for him to use? Yes! Just because I didn't use it doesn't mean it stopped existing; it was still there, invisibly. Likewise with my parents' supporters (if they were so lucky as to have these rare honors). Say my dad's are an aardvark and a beaver while my mother's are a yak and a zebra. I'm free to choose any two I want; and if I use the aardvark and the yak, my son is free to choose the beaver & zebra instead if he prefers. The point of all this: a person's arms include all those symbols to which he/she is heraldically entitled; the visual display of them is entirely up to that person. The queen has one coat of arms, which she chooses to display differently in Scotland than she does elsewhere; in Scotland the Scottish elements have pride of place.
Until devolution, it's clear why the Scottish Office in Westminster used the queen's arms for Scotland: they are a ministry of her UK government. Now I admit that their use by the new Scottish parliament is a little confusing; if they're a national Scottish institution, what are they doing with English and Irish symbols on their arms? Well, first, it's not their arms — it's the queen's, which they're using by permission and as her delegates. And secondly, I'd guess that the possibility of using the plain lion rampant, if it even occurred to them at all, was rejected because it could be interpreted as a sign of Scottish independence.
Could it be so interpreted here? No, we're not an official government institution displaying it as our symbol; we're reporting in the third person on somebody else's symbol. Whose? Not the parliament's but the country's. A country is more than its government; and so while the lion rampant is obviously not used by the Scottish parliament, it is a national symbol of Scotland. And, in fact, to a herald, it is Scotland. It is absolutely & 100% analogous to the three lions in England — the old royal arms of the kingdom, now never used because the kingdom has acceeded to a United Kingdom. Doops | talk 18:47, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have created Kingdom of Scotland as a separate article (currently, just a stub). I think some of the information in the Scotland article would be better located there. -- JW1805 18:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have created a "National Symbols of Scotland" page that allows discussion of the symbols such as the Lion Rampant that are used to represent Scotland. This allows the distinct Scottish symbols to be discussed, while allowing the coat of arms as used in Scotland to be shown, in line with the other country pages. Hopefully this will be an accepted compromise Astrotrain 20:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
:"in line with the other country pages" is a total perversion of the truth: both the England page and Wales page show their own national symbols, not the symbols of the UK.-- Mais oui! 20:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Grcampbell has the true compromise: show the Scottish Standard in the infobox, but include the Arms of the United Kingdom under the Head of State section. I liked it, but Astrotrain didn't. He has deleted the arms of Scotland and inserted the arms of the United Kingdom for about the tenth time!-- Mais oui! 20:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
No, not that kind of bullet! I assure you, my intentions are entirely amicable. I just want to try to figure out where Astrotrain and I are misunderstanding each other; and I thought the best way would be to make a bulleted list of short, specific questions so I can get Astrotrain's short, specific answers to them. Thanks. Doops | talk 21:01, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to request that the parties involved refrain from their revert war on the Arms of Scotland issue until they reach a decision here. One of you has already violated the 3RR (by a few minutes) and the other has come within a few minutes of doing the same. The revert war makes you both look childish, even though the passionate discussions here seems to indicate that you are both mature and eloquent. Please focus on resolving the issue here (or through mediation) rather than fighting it out with reverts. Thanks in advance for your cooperation. -- GraemeL (talk) 11:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
On the whole, I think that the use of the lion rampant seems more reasonable. The Arms of Dominion as used in Scotland do not represent Scotland; they are only the arms of HM The Queen, the monarch of the United Kingdom. By analogy, I expect that we would use the three lions passant guardant for England, not the Arms of Dominion. -- Emsworth 00:04, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
At no point did I break the "3 revert rule". Since this dispute is getting really ugly, I will not be wasting my time on this article. Let the abusive arrogance of Mais Oui and the amateur heralidic authority of Doops decide what is the coat of arms. Astrotrain 23:11, 17 September 2005 (UTC)