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Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | → | Archive 32 |
Why is shown where Scotland is in Europe? This creates the erroneous impression that Scotland is independant. GoodDay ( talk) 15:39, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
This is just ridiculous. The map is fine as it is - Scotland acts and reacts on the European/International stage at a level that is decoupled from its sovereign status (e.g. sporting activities). Honestly, if this is the most pressing thing people can find time to argue about then wikipedia is finished. SFC9394 ( talk) 19:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
When are the Admins going to get a grip on the increasingly tedious GoodDay campaigns? We understand that he doesn't want Quebec to be independent, but this must be one of the daftest WP:POINT campaigns ever conducted on Wikipedia. He has shown, repeatedly, that he knows absolutely zilch about the United Kingdom and its constitution, and yet he has plagued countless UK-related articles. I consider his to be a test case: Wikipedia must deal with this rogue account. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 07:08, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
It's been 'bout 8 days & there's no consensus for my proposed deletion of the inserted World Map. The proposal is withdrawn. GoodDay ( talk) 02:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Curious as to why in the infobox under 'Patron Saint we have three listed, only one of which has a ref. I vaguely recall an earlier discussion but should we not stick to that saint which, according to legend, King Angus appointed following his victory over Athelstane? Whilst the others are significant, they're not the only saints associated with the country: St Blane, St Mungo, St Serf, St Ninian, St Ernan, etc. Endrick Shellycoat 15:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to be a pedant, but the ref for Margaret doesn't actually state she is a "patron Saint of Scotland". A contributor to the page even states "Indeed, quite an interesting saint. The article was somewhat lacking in that it did not reveal what she was patron of, but other than that minor ommitance, quite nicely written and informative. " An alternative reference might be:
"A panegyric on saint Margaret, queen and patroness of Scotland. By James Augustine Stothert, Margaret (st, consort of Malcolm iii, king of Scotland)" At Google Books.
That book states on pg 15 "A walk of a few minutes would bring us to the spot, where she murmered her last prayer on earth; whence she passed to her new office of patroness and friend of her adopted country, in heaven". But an additonal official source would be beneficial. Endrick Shellycoat 19:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I think that's a sensible proposal. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 23:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
There is certainly some ambiguity about Columba's status. He has certainly been regarded by some as having been a patron saint of Scotland at a particular moment in history (see for example even the title of this: Smith, John (1798), The life of St. Columba: the apostle and patron saint of the ancient Scots and Picts, Edinburgh: Mundell & Sons), but appears to have been venerated particularly by the Dalriadan Gaels and Fortriuan Picts, with the southern Picts taking on Andrew as Patron, under the influence of the Northumbrian Church. If anyone has access to it, I would imagine the following would give as good an answer as anything: Clancy, Thomas Owen (1997), "Columba, Adomnán and the cult of saints in Scotland", Innes Review, 48: 1–26
The picture in the Romans sections has been moved to the left by an established editor. It is now the only picture that does not follow the pattern of alternation. Is there some reason for this that I cannot see on my display?-- SabreBD ( talk) 22:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I propose to put File:Scotland population cartogram.png in the Scotland#Demography because my cartogram illustrates very well first paragraphs about where how many people live. Allegedly there is no room for a additional graphics so I propose to exchange Edinburgh picture, which one illustrates only that Edinburgh is a city, for my cartogram. Pawcio ( talk) 18:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Just putting this here to see what it would look like in the article, should consensus be to put it there. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 07:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I have to say I really like this cartogram and I think its a useful tool for explaining Scotland's demographics. Personally I would be happy for it to repalce the clan map. Even if not used on this page however it almost certainly should be included on both Demography_of_Scotland and Central_Belt Andrewdpcotton ( talk) 14:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC) Agreed. I do however think that here at least that the legend needs to be more brief. "Aberdeen City1- Aberdeenshire, 2-" etc could be relegated to a note easily enough. Ben Mac Dui 19:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I not the appearance of this long new section, almost entirely devoted to popular music. As ever, the trick is to know what to leave out rather than including anything and everything that springs to mind. It could be replaced with a line or two in the existing intro to the Culture section, but perhaps a sub-section at about a quarter the length of the current version would do. There are various other problems due to expansion of the literature section that also need addressing. I'll have a go in due course - comments and suggestions welcome of course. Ben Mac Dui 10:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC) PS No mention of " Donald Where's Your Troosers?"!
I'm currently having a discussion with the user Muleattack on the Scottish inventions and discoveries page over the validity of Adam Smiths the Wealth of Nations. The work was groundbreaking and a publishing first on economics and influenced intellectuals throught the world with his theories. Not only that, books like "On The wealth of Nations books that changed the world" by P. J. O'Rourke Grove Press 2007 states; recognized as the fundamental work of economics, as important to the development of this field as Darwin's The Origin of Species would be for natural history eighty years later. Considering Darwin in included in English inventions and discoveries I think Smiths theories and works should be included in the Scottish inventions and discoveries. Other works like Short Course in International Economics: Understanding the Dynamics of the Global Marketplace by Jeffrey E. Curry p4 world trade press states; Smith was the "founder of classical economics and that the wealth of nations remains a standard text for economics students world wide". The invention of classical economics is attributed to Smith, surly this should be added to the inventions and discoveries page? Uthican ( talk) 15:54, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I intended to place the Scottish parliament as legislator above the Prime Minister of the UK in the infobox as I'm damned sure that the Scottish parliament takes rather more precedent than the UK PM when it is an article on Scotland. Sadly, no matter how much I tried I found it impossible to do so. I'm going to presume that everyone can see that it is commonsense to do so and would ask if anyone knows how to do this. Carson101 ( talk) 17:32, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
A sequence of adding-removing-adding images is again developing. See most recently Talk:Scotland/Archive_27#Images_yet_again. Personally, I'm with the view that "You should always be watchful not to overwhelm an article with images by adding more just because you can." ( WP:PERTINENCE) and that squeezing any text between two photos is unhelpful. AllyD ( talk) 16:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
There's been a lot of attempts to remove one referenced chunk of the article text today, mainly coming from one university's IP addresses, and with a pattern of providing no edit summary. Perhaps they can bring their rationale to the Talk page? AllyD ( talk) 21:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
If the ongoing attempt to circumvent WP:BRD by User:Vsc12 and associated ip address ( User talk:84.10.140.247) does not desist, we will seek semi-protection of the article. I have requested that the new User come to Talk to discuss their highly prominent addition to the opening sentence, but they have thus far failed to show up.-- Mais oui! ( talk) 06:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Should we add a satellite image of Scotland somewhere in the article ? There's one on the geography of Scotland page. Think it should have a place in here as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.199.115 ( talk) 04:41, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Spotting that there is a broken link to Scotlands GDP in the information box I thought I'd search for the info and replace it. As I appear unable to edit I thought that I would give the link to the information anyway. This Scottish Government link gives the GDP as 142 Billion. [6]. If someone would be kind enough to include this data I would appreciate it. Thanks. Clay More47 ( talk) 20:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
According to the text there are 15 Universities in Scotland, yet I have found this] website which states that there are 19. Funnily enough, it's the same website, though different page, that is used as a reference for the 15. I'd rather not go charging in to change this without others opinions. The text I refer to is under the heading Education. Clay More47 ( talk) 16:57, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I have for a long time now supported the introduction saying Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, something that is also said on the England article and Wales article, all despite initially being against use of the term country altogether. the justification being that sources say there were 4 countries of the UK and all four UK nation articles would say a similar thing. However the Northern Ireland article seems to now dispute the fact that Northern Ireland is a country of the UK, with the term being removed from the introduction.
Either England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are all countries, or none of them are surely? So should this article be altered to reflect the fact there seems to be a dispute over if the UK is made up of countries? BritishWatcher ( talk) 19:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
"Six Counties"? I wouldn't even entertain the opinion of someone who can't even call the political entity its actual name as it shows they are of a highly polarised and partisan viewpoint. Mabuska (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Objections have been made to the inclusion of the following sentence in the lead: "Scotland is one of twelve official regions of the United Kingdom at the first level of NUTS for statistical purposes.". I think that is is accurate, verifiable, notable and consistent with every other level 1 region of the Uk, all of which have the sentence in their respective leads. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 19:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
As this same discussion is occurring in parallel on three different pages, I shall respond in just one place, Talk:Wales#NUTS in the lead. -- Dr Greg talk 20:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone else think their is too many sub-headings and the article needs a minor clean? 90.216.108.71 ( talk) 22:08, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
There appears to be an overly long gap between the heading Roman Influence and the start of the text. Is this normal? I haven't noticed this at any other articles. I thought of fiddling about with it to try and correct it but wouldn't want a slap on the wrist for any botch up I may have made. I hope I don't sound picky but it did catch my eye. Clay More47 ( talk) 15:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not overly bothered, but as a passing visitor, the lead section of 399 words strikes me as a bit long. Technically it is within the Manual of Style recommendation of "no more than four paragraphs", but does it really need two paragraphs on the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK? ( Chorleypie ( talk) 10:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC))
Edit made yesterday introduced Secretary of State (SoS) for Scotland into infobox, beneath the PM. No real preference as to which, but I'd suggest either or is sufficent, but both is unnecessary. If one forced to make a choice, I'd say the PM was more appropriate as they are the head of (UK) Govt., as opposed to the SoS who is the head of a (UK) Govt. Dept. 81.135.131.138 ( talk) 15:12, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Are we certain that GDP figure is NOMINAL and not PPP ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.88 ( talk) 16:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
In what senses is/isn't Scotland a "Country"? The Wikipedia article on Country indicates that the common use of "Country" refers to a sovereign nation. If this is correct, the top of the article shouldn't refer to Scotland as a Country.-- Nogburt ( talk) 20:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Scotland maybe defined as a "Constituent country" (along with England) and as stated in the wikipedia page "Constituent country is a phrase sometimes used in contexts in which a country makes up a part of a larger entity". It has no political meaning - it simply means a "country" which is part of (or a constituent of) something else. There for Scotland is defined as a country (but not in political terms). The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northren Ireland however is a sovereign state which is what we would BELIEVE a country is. However a country is simply a geographical region which maybe occupied by a sovereign state or may infact be a soveriegn state. "Countries" may also be defined as a non-soveriegn political division (Scotland). Therefore Scotland is a country (as it is a political division) however the United Kingdom is also a country (as it is a soveriegn state). However, in the each state in the United States of America is in their own right a country!
Scotland - is basically like a state. The United Kingdom - is defined as a soveriegn state (like Spain)
To put this simply - The United Kingdom is a country (a soveriegn state) as said on the wikipedia page; "A sovereign state is classically defined as a state with a defined territory on which it exercises internal and external sovereignty, a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states." Which is most people's Idea of what a country is. Scotland is defined as a country as it is a political division of the United Kingdom. However each state (ie Maine) in the United States of America would also be defined as countries.
-- Italay90 ( talk) 23:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't wikipedia offer a more truthful option to pure lazyness. What is the United Kingdom then? The united kingdom is recognised as a country by the UN, EU and other countries...? Why isn't New York (state) called a "country" then, if Scotland is described as one for the same reason it is described as a state... 81.154.106.193 ( talk) 19:44, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I split the baby. You can have your non-sovereign and you can have your country. Khimaris ( talk) 18:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Previous authors do not need to be consulted before making changes. Nobody owns articles. If you see a problem that you can fix, do so.
Interesting debate everyone, but with regards to the Act of the Union - why isn't Scotland considered a "Kingdom"? I realise that in practice, there is no Kingdom - which is causing me great confusion. If Scotland is a country, (Which I'm not trying to disagree with or undermine anyone here) - then what is the UK? As pointed out this issue can be highly opinionated and personal to some people, but doesn't this make Scotland really just a "semi self governing entity" or something? I know it sounds clinical and such, but labelling Scotland the same way you label any other "country" is confusing and arguably not correct. Anyone reading the article is given the impression that Scotland is totally sovereign and that the UK is something like the EU or NATO, where as we are in fact UK Nationals. To further add to the confusion (for some) people from across the UK are British Citizens, and not labelled according to their individual regions! I think in practice Scotland is basically similar to a State in the USA, but it doesn't have that kind of official title. Therefore I find labelling it as a "country" is misleading, because Scotland is to the United Kingdom what Texas is to the United States, in practice. Anyway any input would be great from anyone, I'm not trying to make any kind of political statement, I'm just worried the article is a bit misleading and doesn't make the distinction from country and "region" clear enough. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.3.126.19 ( talk) 15:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for entitling us to be confused, because as an outsider here, I came here to figure out if it's a country or not and I'm still confused as hell. You can't have a country inside a country, unless it's separate like Vatican City. If Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom, common sense says it's not it's own country. I'm not saying I know all about this stuff, but I do know what the common definition of country is, which tells me that Scotland is not one. I don't think this discussion should be closed until it's more clear. What about saying something like, "It's a country in the historical sense, but does not have its own sovereignty and therefore many consider it not a country." This at least shows that it is a debate instead of acting like it's not. Go on any page on the internet and people argue back and forth because it really does seem to be a matter of opinion on your definition of "country". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cookeky ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Is there any reason Scotland shouldn't be referred to as a state? In normal use the term "country" denotes a sovereign state. Scotland does not have its own sovereignty (nor does England, Northern Ireland or Wales). So: take away "sovereign" from "sovereign state" and you're left with "state", which is surely a neutral and accurate term. I find "country" to be a political rather than a descriptive term when talking about the parts of the UK. Generally, when "country" is used to describe Scotland it is used with nationalist bias, or it is used to appease nationalist sentiments (at least as far as I can tell - I am a Scot, for the record). With regard to the list of treaties etc. I'm sure if you consider the historical and political context of each you would at least see a hint of what I am getting at. Nonetheless, words change with time and I don't think historical documents are conclusive evidence of anything in a debate over semantics. Mnealon ( talk) 21:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
I believe that Scotland should be described as a "State", "Province" or even "Kingdom" as these terms to not imply that Scotland is a soveriegn state, "country" is rather misleading as it implies that Scotland and England are soveriegn states which they are not. The meaning of country varies widely, but, it is generally used to define soveriegn states, ie France/Spain/Germany etc. are countries. Ofcourse the meaning maybe applied to Scotland, but it maybe applied to virtually anywhere to some degree, ie Florida (United States), Quebec (Canada) however, in the united states article for example, the United States is defined as a country. Even counties maybe defined as countries, ie "Midlothian" maybe defined as a country - like Scotland it is "an area distinguished by its poeple, culture, lanuage or government" so virtually anywhere maybe described as a country!?!?!?! The only reason this term is used for the Scotland article is because many Nationalists believe Scotland is a country; but so is CALIFORNIA for example!!!! -- Italay90 ( talk) 00:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
What would be the language(s) primarily used in Scotland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.251.28 ( talk) 19:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
English is the primary language used in Scotland - though some enthusiasts like to call it 'Scots', especially when spoken or written in a strongly accented or dialect form. English in its historic forms has in fact probably been the primary language of most of what is now lowland Scotland for some 1,500 years ever since Anglo-saxon settlers/invaders first established their kingdom of Bernicia there, round about the same time that the Gaelic speaking Scots settlers/invaders from Ireland first established their own small kingdom in the north west of what was then 'Caledonia' or more simply 'northern Britain'. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
92.5.3.113 (
talk) 13:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
No offence intended, but SSE and English-in-England are surely so close that for all practical purposes they are in truth almost exactly the same - certainly in their written form only an expert could tell them apart, and probably not always then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.4.99 ( talk) 18:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The recently changed sentence “Discounting the effects of oil and gas reserves, in the year 2008-09, Scotland received a net subsidy of £10.5bn from the UK Treasury.” (in the section "Economy and infrastructure") is problematic. The effects of oil and gas reserves have not been discounted. They have been removed from Scotland's figures and added to the UK's. Also, the source does not use the word subsidy, which could be considered contentious, it uses the word deficit, presumably in the context of a balance of payments between Scotland the (rest of the?) UK. Any suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daicaregos ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 6 November 2012
Rather than simply presenting the argument given, both sides need to be presented for the sake neutrality. There are plenty of credible sources (perhaps even more credible than the one given) that would paint an entirely different picture than that which is given by this article.
May I suggest that this article is used as reference instead " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990".
This would mean substainial alteration to this portion of text, however.
"The Scottish Government's most recent figures (for 2009/10) show that when taking into account a geographical share of revenues from UK oil and gas reserves, Scotland contributed 9.4% of UK taxes, but received 9.3% of public expenditure.[150] Discounting the effects of oil and gas reserves, in the year 2008-09, Scotland received a net subsidy of £10.5bn from the UK Treasury.[151]
to "Scotland accounts for 9.2% of total UK public spending, but 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues. When a geographical share of UK Oil and Gas reserves is included, Scotland accounts for 9.4% of UK tax-revenues."
Comments?
Why is the GDP given in Pound Sterling? Even the UK article has it's GDP given in US Dollars. I recommend changing it to US Dollars as is the case for most country related articles on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.32 ( talk) 00:45, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Sorry I tried to update the population figure but I mucked it up. Here's the new figure and the reference. 5,295,000 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20754750 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.207.71 ( talk) 18:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I propose changing the ethnicity section simply to 89% Scottish, 11% Other. The vast majority of people in Scotland do not refer to themselves as British, even if they do most don't consider it an ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.215.249 ( talk) 09:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
There's still a "other white British" ethnicity given. Personally an English, Welsh or Northern Irish person is as foreign to me as a Spaniard or a German. And to try and group the English, Welsh and Northern Irish ethnicities together like this is slightly inaccurate in my view and the views of many others. 88.09% Scottish, 11.91% Other is what it should read.
Yeah exactly, it's like saying we're all just Europeans due to all the mass and minor migrations that have taken place in Europe throughout the ages. There IS no such thing as a homogenous (in your sense of the word) ethnicity. A German is still German despite the fact that he COULD trace his ancestry to many surrounding European countries and all the way back to Southeastern Africa. Same with Scottish and all other people. My point is few people in the UK really consider British an ethnicity, at least not in this day and age anyway. It's become more of a supranational term really denoting a citizen of the UK the UK being viewed more and more as an EU style union by people within it (as uneducated as that opinion might be). The ethnicities are Scottish, English and Welsh. Northern Ireland is a slightly different situation of course. Your comments strike me as being politically and personally motivated Mabuska not to mention inaccurate. But I understand a source is needed for any changes. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.104.205.88 (
talk) 13:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I'd also point out the "white" Scottish ethnicity given. As far as I'm aware Scottish ethnicity (at least the modern notion of Scottish ethnicity) is more akin to that of Danish, wherein ethnicity is more to do with an allegiance to Denmark than actual ethnic origins. Basically if you're born in Scotland and consider the country your own you're Scottish regardless of where your parents, grandparents etc. came from (which is the most logical ideology as well given we all come from somewhere else originally). It also greatly benefits in the assimilation of immigrants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.88 ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
You'll definitely need sources for all that. Mabuska (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
This "88.09% White Scottish, 11.91% Other". — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.104.205.88 (
talk) 12:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't be opposed to simply a White ethnicity figure followed by an Other figure either although I still prefer the White Scottish, Other. I'd ideally just prefer 88.09% Scottish as I don't necessarily think Scottish ethnicity is limited to skin colour (already explained my reasons for this earlier in the conversation) but I understand that isn't what the source states it clearly says White Scottish.
I'm looking at various other surrounding countries articles; Norway, Ireland, Iceland and they generally have "88% Norwegian/Irish/Icelandic, 12% Other. Norway has obviously added in the Sami group and Iceland has added in Polish numbers.
Well looks like everyone that was planning on answering has. Can we have it changed now ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.215.249 ( talk) 13:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
[tired sigh].. Another very poor decision on Scotland related articles on Wikipedia. I do have to chuckle at Mabuska implying my proposed changes are politically motivated however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.195.110 ( talk) 04:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
As opposed to your statements ?
"Scotland is British for now and as such "Other White British" should be listed separately."
For the record Scotland is also part of the EU at the moment. White European should then be listed seperately should it not... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.195.110 ( talk) 18:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
This sounds an awful lot like "ethnicity" is being confused with "national identity" by some people. Why "White Scottish"? As was said above, the Scots aren't a different race from the English or other whites. Why not simply say "white"? 78.86.61.94 ( talk) 15:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | → | Archive 32 |
Why is shown where Scotland is in Europe? This creates the erroneous impression that Scotland is independant. GoodDay ( talk) 15:39, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
This is just ridiculous. The map is fine as it is - Scotland acts and reacts on the European/International stage at a level that is decoupled from its sovereign status (e.g. sporting activities). Honestly, if this is the most pressing thing people can find time to argue about then wikipedia is finished. SFC9394 ( talk) 19:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
When are the Admins going to get a grip on the increasingly tedious GoodDay campaigns? We understand that he doesn't want Quebec to be independent, but this must be one of the daftest WP:POINT campaigns ever conducted on Wikipedia. He has shown, repeatedly, that he knows absolutely zilch about the United Kingdom and its constitution, and yet he has plagued countless UK-related articles. I consider his to be a test case: Wikipedia must deal with this rogue account. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 07:08, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
It's been 'bout 8 days & there's no consensus for my proposed deletion of the inserted World Map. The proposal is withdrawn. GoodDay ( talk) 02:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Curious as to why in the infobox under 'Patron Saint we have three listed, only one of which has a ref. I vaguely recall an earlier discussion but should we not stick to that saint which, according to legend, King Angus appointed following his victory over Athelstane? Whilst the others are significant, they're not the only saints associated with the country: St Blane, St Mungo, St Serf, St Ninian, St Ernan, etc. Endrick Shellycoat 15:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to be a pedant, but the ref for Margaret doesn't actually state she is a "patron Saint of Scotland". A contributor to the page even states "Indeed, quite an interesting saint. The article was somewhat lacking in that it did not reveal what she was patron of, but other than that minor ommitance, quite nicely written and informative. " An alternative reference might be:
"A panegyric on saint Margaret, queen and patroness of Scotland. By James Augustine Stothert, Margaret (st, consort of Malcolm iii, king of Scotland)" At Google Books.
That book states on pg 15 "A walk of a few minutes would bring us to the spot, where she murmered her last prayer on earth; whence she passed to her new office of patroness and friend of her adopted country, in heaven". But an additonal official source would be beneficial. Endrick Shellycoat 19:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I think that's a sensible proposal. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 23:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
There is certainly some ambiguity about Columba's status. He has certainly been regarded by some as having been a patron saint of Scotland at a particular moment in history (see for example even the title of this: Smith, John (1798), The life of St. Columba: the apostle and patron saint of the ancient Scots and Picts, Edinburgh: Mundell & Sons), but appears to have been venerated particularly by the Dalriadan Gaels and Fortriuan Picts, with the southern Picts taking on Andrew as Patron, under the influence of the Northumbrian Church. If anyone has access to it, I would imagine the following would give as good an answer as anything: Clancy, Thomas Owen (1997), "Columba, Adomnán and the cult of saints in Scotland", Innes Review, 48: 1–26
The picture in the Romans sections has been moved to the left by an established editor. It is now the only picture that does not follow the pattern of alternation. Is there some reason for this that I cannot see on my display?-- SabreBD ( talk) 22:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I propose to put File:Scotland population cartogram.png in the Scotland#Demography because my cartogram illustrates very well first paragraphs about where how many people live. Allegedly there is no room for a additional graphics so I propose to exchange Edinburgh picture, which one illustrates only that Edinburgh is a city, for my cartogram. Pawcio ( talk) 18:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Just putting this here to see what it would look like in the article, should consensus be to put it there. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 07:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I have to say I really like this cartogram and I think its a useful tool for explaining Scotland's demographics. Personally I would be happy for it to repalce the clan map. Even if not used on this page however it almost certainly should be included on both Demography_of_Scotland and Central_Belt Andrewdpcotton ( talk) 14:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC) Agreed. I do however think that here at least that the legend needs to be more brief. "Aberdeen City1- Aberdeenshire, 2-" etc could be relegated to a note easily enough. Ben Mac Dui 19:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I not the appearance of this long new section, almost entirely devoted to popular music. As ever, the trick is to know what to leave out rather than including anything and everything that springs to mind. It could be replaced with a line or two in the existing intro to the Culture section, but perhaps a sub-section at about a quarter the length of the current version would do. There are various other problems due to expansion of the literature section that also need addressing. I'll have a go in due course - comments and suggestions welcome of course. Ben Mac Dui 10:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC) PS No mention of " Donald Where's Your Troosers?"!
I'm currently having a discussion with the user Muleattack on the Scottish inventions and discoveries page over the validity of Adam Smiths the Wealth of Nations. The work was groundbreaking and a publishing first on economics and influenced intellectuals throught the world with his theories. Not only that, books like "On The wealth of Nations books that changed the world" by P. J. O'Rourke Grove Press 2007 states; recognized as the fundamental work of economics, as important to the development of this field as Darwin's The Origin of Species would be for natural history eighty years later. Considering Darwin in included in English inventions and discoveries I think Smiths theories and works should be included in the Scottish inventions and discoveries. Other works like Short Course in International Economics: Understanding the Dynamics of the Global Marketplace by Jeffrey E. Curry p4 world trade press states; Smith was the "founder of classical economics and that the wealth of nations remains a standard text for economics students world wide". The invention of classical economics is attributed to Smith, surly this should be added to the inventions and discoveries page? Uthican ( talk) 15:54, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I intended to place the Scottish parliament as legislator above the Prime Minister of the UK in the infobox as I'm damned sure that the Scottish parliament takes rather more precedent than the UK PM when it is an article on Scotland. Sadly, no matter how much I tried I found it impossible to do so. I'm going to presume that everyone can see that it is commonsense to do so and would ask if anyone knows how to do this. Carson101 ( talk) 17:32, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
A sequence of adding-removing-adding images is again developing. See most recently Talk:Scotland/Archive_27#Images_yet_again. Personally, I'm with the view that "You should always be watchful not to overwhelm an article with images by adding more just because you can." ( WP:PERTINENCE) and that squeezing any text between two photos is unhelpful. AllyD ( talk) 16:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
There's been a lot of attempts to remove one referenced chunk of the article text today, mainly coming from one university's IP addresses, and with a pattern of providing no edit summary. Perhaps they can bring their rationale to the Talk page? AllyD ( talk) 21:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
If the ongoing attempt to circumvent WP:BRD by User:Vsc12 and associated ip address ( User talk:84.10.140.247) does not desist, we will seek semi-protection of the article. I have requested that the new User come to Talk to discuss their highly prominent addition to the opening sentence, but they have thus far failed to show up.-- Mais oui! ( talk) 06:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Should we add a satellite image of Scotland somewhere in the article ? There's one on the geography of Scotland page. Think it should have a place in here as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.199.115 ( talk) 04:41, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Spotting that there is a broken link to Scotlands GDP in the information box I thought I'd search for the info and replace it. As I appear unable to edit I thought that I would give the link to the information anyway. This Scottish Government link gives the GDP as 142 Billion. [6]. If someone would be kind enough to include this data I would appreciate it. Thanks. Clay More47 ( talk) 20:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
According to the text there are 15 Universities in Scotland, yet I have found this] website which states that there are 19. Funnily enough, it's the same website, though different page, that is used as a reference for the 15. I'd rather not go charging in to change this without others opinions. The text I refer to is under the heading Education. Clay More47 ( talk) 16:57, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I have for a long time now supported the introduction saying Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, something that is also said on the England article and Wales article, all despite initially being against use of the term country altogether. the justification being that sources say there were 4 countries of the UK and all four UK nation articles would say a similar thing. However the Northern Ireland article seems to now dispute the fact that Northern Ireland is a country of the UK, with the term being removed from the introduction.
Either England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are all countries, or none of them are surely? So should this article be altered to reflect the fact there seems to be a dispute over if the UK is made up of countries? BritishWatcher ( talk) 19:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
"Six Counties"? I wouldn't even entertain the opinion of someone who can't even call the political entity its actual name as it shows they are of a highly polarised and partisan viewpoint. Mabuska (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Objections have been made to the inclusion of the following sentence in the lead: "Scotland is one of twelve official regions of the United Kingdom at the first level of NUTS for statistical purposes.". I think that is is accurate, verifiable, notable and consistent with every other level 1 region of the Uk, all of which have the sentence in their respective leads. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 19:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
As this same discussion is occurring in parallel on three different pages, I shall respond in just one place, Talk:Wales#NUTS in the lead. -- Dr Greg talk 20:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone else think their is too many sub-headings and the article needs a minor clean? 90.216.108.71 ( talk) 22:08, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
There appears to be an overly long gap between the heading Roman Influence and the start of the text. Is this normal? I haven't noticed this at any other articles. I thought of fiddling about with it to try and correct it but wouldn't want a slap on the wrist for any botch up I may have made. I hope I don't sound picky but it did catch my eye. Clay More47 ( talk) 15:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not overly bothered, but as a passing visitor, the lead section of 399 words strikes me as a bit long. Technically it is within the Manual of Style recommendation of "no more than four paragraphs", but does it really need two paragraphs on the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK? ( Chorleypie ( talk) 10:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC))
Edit made yesterday introduced Secretary of State (SoS) for Scotland into infobox, beneath the PM. No real preference as to which, but I'd suggest either or is sufficent, but both is unnecessary. If one forced to make a choice, I'd say the PM was more appropriate as they are the head of (UK) Govt., as opposed to the SoS who is the head of a (UK) Govt. Dept. 81.135.131.138 ( talk) 15:12, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Are we certain that GDP figure is NOMINAL and not PPP ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.88 ( talk) 16:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
In what senses is/isn't Scotland a "Country"? The Wikipedia article on Country indicates that the common use of "Country" refers to a sovereign nation. If this is correct, the top of the article shouldn't refer to Scotland as a Country.-- Nogburt ( talk) 20:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Scotland maybe defined as a "Constituent country" (along with England) and as stated in the wikipedia page "Constituent country is a phrase sometimes used in contexts in which a country makes up a part of a larger entity". It has no political meaning - it simply means a "country" which is part of (or a constituent of) something else. There for Scotland is defined as a country (but not in political terms). The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northren Ireland however is a sovereign state which is what we would BELIEVE a country is. However a country is simply a geographical region which maybe occupied by a sovereign state or may infact be a soveriegn state. "Countries" may also be defined as a non-soveriegn political division (Scotland). Therefore Scotland is a country (as it is a political division) however the United Kingdom is also a country (as it is a soveriegn state). However, in the each state in the United States of America is in their own right a country!
Scotland - is basically like a state. The United Kingdom - is defined as a soveriegn state (like Spain)
To put this simply - The United Kingdom is a country (a soveriegn state) as said on the wikipedia page; "A sovereign state is classically defined as a state with a defined territory on which it exercises internal and external sovereignty, a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states." Which is most people's Idea of what a country is. Scotland is defined as a country as it is a political division of the United Kingdom. However each state (ie Maine) in the United States of America would also be defined as countries.
-- Italay90 ( talk) 23:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't wikipedia offer a more truthful option to pure lazyness. What is the United Kingdom then? The united kingdom is recognised as a country by the UN, EU and other countries...? Why isn't New York (state) called a "country" then, if Scotland is described as one for the same reason it is described as a state... 81.154.106.193 ( talk) 19:44, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I split the baby. You can have your non-sovereign and you can have your country. Khimaris ( talk) 18:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Previous authors do not need to be consulted before making changes. Nobody owns articles. If you see a problem that you can fix, do so.
Interesting debate everyone, but with regards to the Act of the Union - why isn't Scotland considered a "Kingdom"? I realise that in practice, there is no Kingdom - which is causing me great confusion. If Scotland is a country, (Which I'm not trying to disagree with or undermine anyone here) - then what is the UK? As pointed out this issue can be highly opinionated and personal to some people, but doesn't this make Scotland really just a "semi self governing entity" or something? I know it sounds clinical and such, but labelling Scotland the same way you label any other "country" is confusing and arguably not correct. Anyone reading the article is given the impression that Scotland is totally sovereign and that the UK is something like the EU or NATO, where as we are in fact UK Nationals. To further add to the confusion (for some) people from across the UK are British Citizens, and not labelled according to their individual regions! I think in practice Scotland is basically similar to a State in the USA, but it doesn't have that kind of official title. Therefore I find labelling it as a "country" is misleading, because Scotland is to the United Kingdom what Texas is to the United States, in practice. Anyway any input would be great from anyone, I'm not trying to make any kind of political statement, I'm just worried the article is a bit misleading and doesn't make the distinction from country and "region" clear enough. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.3.126.19 ( talk) 15:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
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Thank you for entitling us to be confused, because as an outsider here, I came here to figure out if it's a country or not and I'm still confused as hell. You can't have a country inside a country, unless it's separate like Vatican City. If Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom, common sense says it's not it's own country. I'm not saying I know all about this stuff, but I do know what the common definition of country is, which tells me that Scotland is not one. I don't think this discussion should be closed until it's more clear. What about saying something like, "It's a country in the historical sense, but does not have its own sovereignty and therefore many consider it not a country." This at least shows that it is a debate instead of acting like it's not. Go on any page on the internet and people argue back and forth because it really does seem to be a matter of opinion on your definition of "country". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cookeky ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Is there any reason Scotland shouldn't be referred to as a state? In normal use the term "country" denotes a sovereign state. Scotland does not have its own sovereignty (nor does England, Northern Ireland or Wales). So: take away "sovereign" from "sovereign state" and you're left with "state", which is surely a neutral and accurate term. I find "country" to be a political rather than a descriptive term when talking about the parts of the UK. Generally, when "country" is used to describe Scotland it is used with nationalist bias, or it is used to appease nationalist sentiments (at least as far as I can tell - I am a Scot, for the record). With regard to the list of treaties etc. I'm sure if you consider the historical and political context of each you would at least see a hint of what I am getting at. Nonetheless, words change with time and I don't think historical documents are conclusive evidence of anything in a debate over semantics. Mnealon ( talk) 21:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
I believe that Scotland should be described as a "State", "Province" or even "Kingdom" as these terms to not imply that Scotland is a soveriegn state, "country" is rather misleading as it implies that Scotland and England are soveriegn states which they are not. The meaning of country varies widely, but, it is generally used to define soveriegn states, ie France/Spain/Germany etc. are countries. Ofcourse the meaning maybe applied to Scotland, but it maybe applied to virtually anywhere to some degree, ie Florida (United States), Quebec (Canada) however, in the united states article for example, the United States is defined as a country. Even counties maybe defined as countries, ie "Midlothian" maybe defined as a country - like Scotland it is "an area distinguished by its poeple, culture, lanuage or government" so virtually anywhere maybe described as a country!?!?!?! The only reason this term is used for the Scotland article is because many Nationalists believe Scotland is a country; but so is CALIFORNIA for example!!!! -- Italay90 ( talk) 00:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
What would be the language(s) primarily used in Scotland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.251.28 ( talk) 19:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
English is the primary language used in Scotland - though some enthusiasts like to call it 'Scots', especially when spoken or written in a strongly accented or dialect form. English in its historic forms has in fact probably been the primary language of most of what is now lowland Scotland for some 1,500 years ever since Anglo-saxon settlers/invaders first established their kingdom of Bernicia there, round about the same time that the Gaelic speaking Scots settlers/invaders from Ireland first established their own small kingdom in the north west of what was then 'Caledonia' or more simply 'northern Britain'. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
92.5.3.113 (
talk) 13:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
No offence intended, but SSE and English-in-England are surely so close that for all practical purposes they are in truth almost exactly the same - certainly in their written form only an expert could tell them apart, and probably not always then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.4.99 ( talk) 18:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The recently changed sentence “Discounting the effects of oil and gas reserves, in the year 2008-09, Scotland received a net subsidy of £10.5bn from the UK Treasury.” (in the section "Economy and infrastructure") is problematic. The effects of oil and gas reserves have not been discounted. They have been removed from Scotland's figures and added to the UK's. Also, the source does not use the word subsidy, which could be considered contentious, it uses the word deficit, presumably in the context of a balance of payments between Scotland the (rest of the?) UK. Any suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daicaregos ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 6 November 2012
Rather than simply presenting the argument given, both sides need to be presented for the sake neutrality. There are plenty of credible sources (perhaps even more credible than the one given) that would paint an entirely different picture than that which is given by this article.
May I suggest that this article is used as reference instead " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990".
This would mean substainial alteration to this portion of text, however.
"The Scottish Government's most recent figures (for 2009/10) show that when taking into account a geographical share of revenues from UK oil and gas reserves, Scotland contributed 9.4% of UK taxes, but received 9.3% of public expenditure.[150] Discounting the effects of oil and gas reserves, in the year 2008-09, Scotland received a net subsidy of £10.5bn from the UK Treasury.[151]
to "Scotland accounts for 9.2% of total UK public spending, but 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues. When a geographical share of UK Oil and Gas reserves is included, Scotland accounts for 9.4% of UK tax-revenues."
Comments?
Why is the GDP given in Pound Sterling? Even the UK article has it's GDP given in US Dollars. I recommend changing it to US Dollars as is the case for most country related articles on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.32 ( talk) 00:45, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Sorry I tried to update the population figure but I mucked it up. Here's the new figure and the reference. 5,295,000 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20754750 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.207.71 ( talk) 18:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I propose changing the ethnicity section simply to 89% Scottish, 11% Other. The vast majority of people in Scotland do not refer to themselves as British, even if they do most don't consider it an ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.215.249 ( talk) 09:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
There's still a "other white British" ethnicity given. Personally an English, Welsh or Northern Irish person is as foreign to me as a Spaniard or a German. And to try and group the English, Welsh and Northern Irish ethnicities together like this is slightly inaccurate in my view and the views of many others. 88.09% Scottish, 11.91% Other is what it should read.
Yeah exactly, it's like saying we're all just Europeans due to all the mass and minor migrations that have taken place in Europe throughout the ages. There IS no such thing as a homogenous (in your sense of the word) ethnicity. A German is still German despite the fact that he COULD trace his ancestry to many surrounding European countries and all the way back to Southeastern Africa. Same with Scottish and all other people. My point is few people in the UK really consider British an ethnicity, at least not in this day and age anyway. It's become more of a supranational term really denoting a citizen of the UK the UK being viewed more and more as an EU style union by people within it (as uneducated as that opinion might be). The ethnicities are Scottish, English and Welsh. Northern Ireland is a slightly different situation of course. Your comments strike me as being politically and personally motivated Mabuska not to mention inaccurate. But I understand a source is needed for any changes. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.104.205.88 (
talk) 13:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I'd also point out the "white" Scottish ethnicity given. As far as I'm aware Scottish ethnicity (at least the modern notion of Scottish ethnicity) is more akin to that of Danish, wherein ethnicity is more to do with an allegiance to Denmark than actual ethnic origins. Basically if you're born in Scotland and consider the country your own you're Scottish regardless of where your parents, grandparents etc. came from (which is the most logical ideology as well given we all come from somewhere else originally). It also greatly benefits in the assimilation of immigrants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.88 ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
You'll definitely need sources for all that. Mabuska (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
This "88.09% White Scottish, 11.91% Other". — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.104.205.88 (
talk) 12:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't be opposed to simply a White ethnicity figure followed by an Other figure either although I still prefer the White Scottish, Other. I'd ideally just prefer 88.09% Scottish as I don't necessarily think Scottish ethnicity is limited to skin colour (already explained my reasons for this earlier in the conversation) but I understand that isn't what the source states it clearly says White Scottish.
I'm looking at various other surrounding countries articles; Norway, Ireland, Iceland and they generally have "88% Norwegian/Irish/Icelandic, 12% Other. Norway has obviously added in the Sami group and Iceland has added in Polish numbers.
Well looks like everyone that was planning on answering has. Can we have it changed now ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.215.249 ( talk) 13:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
[tired sigh].. Another very poor decision on Scotland related articles on Wikipedia. I do have to chuckle at Mabuska implying my proposed changes are politically motivated however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.195.110 ( talk) 04:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
As opposed to your statements ?
"Scotland is British for now and as such "Other White British" should be listed separately."
For the record Scotland is also part of the EU at the moment. White European should then be listed seperately should it not... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.195.110 ( talk) 18:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
This sounds an awful lot like "ethnicity" is being confused with "national identity" by some people. Why "White Scottish"? As was said above, the Scots aren't a different race from the English or other whites. Why not simply say "white"? 78.86.61.94 ( talk) 15:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)