![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I am concerned about the ever lengthening list of pop groups in the Scotland#Music section, and that the article may be being improperly used by editors to advertise groups who do not merit listing. I propose that some of the groups listed should be transferred to more specialist Music of Scotland. Any comments? Viewfinder 19:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the unstructured list from the article. I was intending to transfer them to Music of Scotland#Revival but when I read this section I discovered many of them were already there, in a much more structured manner. So I decided not to paste the text that I cut. If a subsequent editor creates a list from a reliable source, then that is, of course, OK by me.
I note that the same trend is starting to happen with the list of authors: people seem to be adding their own favourites. I have no problem with a list of the acknowledged greats of Scottish literature (preferably including the great medieval writers), but I do start to wonder when "middle-ranking" and popular authors start to creep in. Snobbery? -- Mais oui! 14:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Nominations are just about to go live. If we want this article to be considered then is now the time to do a Wikipedia:Peer review? -- Mais oui! 09:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"a constituent country... The country..." is just bad style, an explanation of why I was reverted would be nice. Thanks. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 16:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the following addition:
The language just isn't right - far too conversational and without this addition the section stands fine... and who says? References? Thanks/ wangi 22:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. The following doesn't seem correct:
What the associated reference actually says is that for the purposes of English law, Scotland is regarded as a foreign legal jurisdiction. However the paragraph seems to imply that the UN and foreign countries regard it as a separate country - at least for legal matters which is a slightly bolder statement that needs to be sourced. The paragraph may only need a small alteration/ clarification but I don't think it's quite right as it is now. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 16:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is there such a preponderance of lists in this article. One such instance is the huge list of authors in the subsection of literature. Surely such a subsection should use summary style to state briefly what is in the subarticle Scottish literature instead of just trying to escape an inferiority complex? -- Bob 16:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I am aware that the military is the responsibility of the UK, but still, there is virtually no mention of the military in this article apart from the trident in the introduction (which is also misplaced and should not appear so prominently in the intro). -- Bob 16:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I've expanded the 'Military' section a bit. Also added the word 'only' to '25 miles west of Glasgow' in the 'Trident' section - perhaps a wee bit naughty but Westminster tends to regard all of Scotland as remote.-- RDT2 11:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Also added a bit on HMS Vulcan - but I'm not sure if it's still operational-- RDT2 11:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Minor point: 'military' specifically refers to land forces as distinct to naval or air. Perhaps the section should be headed 'Armed Services'.-- RDT2 11:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've shortened the sentence about the Vanguard submarines - the info is readily avilable in the links. RDT2 11:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This is really getting way, way beyond a joke. After last nights' extensive additions the article is now at a ridiculous 63kB. This is approximately double the recommended size of 32 kB. Something has to give. And I do not intend this as a criticism of the User who added all the material yesterday, because some of it is certainly better/more worthy of a place in the article than what was already there.
Can someone please respond to this, because every time I have raised this issue I have been very pointedly ignored. We need to act on this if we are ever to get anywhere near WP:FA. Suggestions please. -- Mais oui! 11:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've taken out a small section of the 'military' that's readily available on the British Armed Forces link. Not much, but every little...?-- 130.209.6.40 12:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that "silly details like the smoking ban could also be removed." Unless there is going to be an entire list of laws, or banned/illegal habits, this should be removed not just from here, but from all Wikipedia except relevant tobacco and smoking articles. -- Lorraine LeBeau 14:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks for this detailed contribution, yet again. -- Mais oui! 00:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, MoS says:
These are events that had international ramifications beyond the Scotland article, an article about what happened in 1005 is useful for contextual purposes. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 22:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been watching this going on for a while now and I haven't actually done anything. The thing is, although I disagree with 129's definition of nation, I don't quite understand why the word "nation" is used here. I'm not denying it's correct or anything, it just seems a little polemical - Scotland isn't normally called that. Other reference sources steer clear of the term:
Hutchinson: "The northernmost part of Great Britain"
1911 Britannica: "... that portion of Great Britain which lies north of the English border"
Oxford paperback dictionary: "The country forming the northern part of Great Britain"
Encarta (my favourite): "One of the four national units that make up the United Kingdom"
I haven't been through the above discussions yet but was there a reason that nation was chosen above country, region or part? My own preference would be for some sort of rewrite of the first paragraph - there's also a need to group the jumbled political/ geographical information. Something like: Scotland (Scottish Gaelic: Alba) is one of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom. It occupies the northern third of the island of Great Britain in northwest Europe and shares a land border to the south with England. It is bounded by the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the southwest. Apart from the mainland, Scotland consists of over 790 islands.
I think the terms "country", "nation" and "region of the United Kingdom" are all a little controversial as they are likely to annoy people with certain points of view, and although they're perfectly correct, the first two without being qualified might be assumed by non-British readers to mean "sovereign nation state". "Constituent country" and "northernmost part of Great Britain" are probably a little less controversial and so might be more suitable. Please tell me what you think. There may be good reasons why my version won't work but I'd like to find some sort of consensus that will satisfy everyone, including unregistered users, as well as being correct. Best-- Lo2u ( T • C) 18:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with what Doric Loon says, as far as Nations go (though I'd never consider the UK to be a nation). To me, a nation is usually made up of a people, sharing a common culture, identity, and usually land. Well, we've got heritage (albeit Gael, Teutonic, and Norse), culture, and a Scottish national identity, plus countless folks songs calling for "A nation once again," so why not use the word? Another thought here: How does a nation/country occupy part of a country? Will our nation simply move over to New Jersey one day? I'd prefer "makes up" there. With both of these in mind, how about this?:
Scotland (Scottish Gaelic: Alba) is a nation in northwest Europe, one of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom. It [occupies | makes up] the northern third of the island of Great Britain, and shares a land border to the south with England.
File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Nation and country are not only acceptable but would be correct. Scots and Scotland are/is a nation, because they/it form[s] a distinct cultural unit. It is a country because it is also a distinct legal unit, internally and externally. These are technical and legal definitions- albeit reduced by me. That is what Wikipedia should also strive to do. If the general public is unclear, we are here to make sure that they no longer are when they come here. Gary Joseph 21:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point and I would agree with you. It is interesting that the two articles referring to units of the UK, Scotland and Northern Ireland are the two that have nomenclature sensitivity issues. I think that " one of the four contituent countries of the United Kingdom" should be the opening line for this article, as well as the one for Wales, Northern Ireland, and England. Enough people think that they are seperate states, similar to the US, that the current opening line would reinforce or add to that confusion. Gary Joseph 22:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Globaltraveller. This really is my last post now. You're right I do object to the placement of Europe over UK. I think it's designed to reflect the Scottish nationalist belief that a closer relationship between nations and regions of the EU should eventually come to supercede the union between the constituent countries of the UK. It hasn't yet and the current order just seems forced. However I do also object to the word nation - it's vague and abstract, having more to do with what people like call themselves than what Scotland is officially called, and to most people it means independent country. That doesn't mean that I object to Scotland being repeatedly referred to as "the/a nation" in the text as long as its position is clarified in the opening lines. "Constituent country" is what Scotland is officially called, and I don't think anyone would assume with the word "constituent" that this means independent state. If you object to the word "country", do you also object to "constituent unit"? How about "One of the national units that make up the United Kingdom" - would you find that acceptable? Or is there something other than nation in Europe? I also think, as I've said, that the opening sentence of the paragraph about Edinburgh is a bit of a mouthful and I don't understand why it was changed. I've avoided being very clear in my arguments assuming I'd be labelled an English nationalist, which I'm not by the way. I'm Welsh by birth and have little English ancestry. I use the England user box because it was the only one I could find that didn't say "This user is proud to be...". -- Lo2u ( T • C) 11:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with "one of the nations of the United Kingdom" or "Scotland is a nation and constituent country of the United Kingdom" or something similar and the purging of the reference to Europe if it made some people happier, although I do think you are perhaps reading a bit too much into the nature of edits and the placing of words. I'm not particularly interested in what people see themselves as, what their political beliefs or motivations are as opposed to the wording of the article. Even though, as I said before, I see why the phrase "constituent country" has to be included as a definition I strongly dislike what is a fuzzy concept, which is far more confusing for the reader than the use of nation. It seems to be a wikipedia "invention" with little or no basis in accepted wisdom let alone conventional definition. Mali is a "constituent country" of Africa, but it is a sovereign independent state. Scotland is a constituent country of the United Kingdom but isn't a sovereign independent state. This then leads to more confusion and fuzziness when the bottom of the introductory section clarifies that Scotland is indeed not independent or sovereign - but it is a "constituent country"! Nation or national is far more widely utilised as a method of describing Scotland - the National Trust for Scotland, the Scottish national football team, the National Library of Scotland etc. I also agre with one of the above points, this is how a great many people in Scotland view where they live and the projection of that, and it should be at least respected as a definition (at the outset) of Scotland. And no that isn't a purely nationalist viewpoint. Thanks Globaltraveller 18:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
"Constituent country is quite clearly in the opening lines. It's in the first sentence. What is wrong with that? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 20:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I am concerned about the ever lengthening list of pop groups in the Scotland#Music section, and that the article may be being improperly used by editors to advertise groups who do not merit listing. I propose that some of the groups listed should be transferred to more specialist Music of Scotland. Any comments? Viewfinder 19:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the unstructured list from the article. I was intending to transfer them to Music of Scotland#Revival but when I read this section I discovered many of them were already there, in a much more structured manner. So I decided not to paste the text that I cut. If a subsequent editor creates a list from a reliable source, then that is, of course, OK by me.
I note that the same trend is starting to happen with the list of authors: people seem to be adding their own favourites. I have no problem with a list of the acknowledged greats of Scottish literature (preferably including the great medieval writers), but I do start to wonder when "middle-ranking" and popular authors start to creep in. Snobbery? -- Mais oui! 14:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Nominations are just about to go live. If we want this article to be considered then is now the time to do a Wikipedia:Peer review? -- Mais oui! 09:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"a constituent country... The country..." is just bad style, an explanation of why I was reverted would be nice. Thanks. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 16:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the following addition:
The language just isn't right - far too conversational and without this addition the section stands fine... and who says? References? Thanks/ wangi 22:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. The following doesn't seem correct:
What the associated reference actually says is that for the purposes of English law, Scotland is regarded as a foreign legal jurisdiction. However the paragraph seems to imply that the UN and foreign countries regard it as a separate country - at least for legal matters which is a slightly bolder statement that needs to be sourced. The paragraph may only need a small alteration/ clarification but I don't think it's quite right as it is now. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 16:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is there such a preponderance of lists in this article. One such instance is the huge list of authors in the subsection of literature. Surely such a subsection should use summary style to state briefly what is in the subarticle Scottish literature instead of just trying to escape an inferiority complex? -- Bob 16:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I am aware that the military is the responsibility of the UK, but still, there is virtually no mention of the military in this article apart from the trident in the introduction (which is also misplaced and should not appear so prominently in the intro). -- Bob 16:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I've expanded the 'Military' section a bit. Also added the word 'only' to '25 miles west of Glasgow' in the 'Trident' section - perhaps a wee bit naughty but Westminster tends to regard all of Scotland as remote.-- RDT2 11:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Also added a bit on HMS Vulcan - but I'm not sure if it's still operational-- RDT2 11:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Minor point: 'military' specifically refers to land forces as distinct to naval or air. Perhaps the section should be headed 'Armed Services'.-- RDT2 11:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've shortened the sentence about the Vanguard submarines - the info is readily avilable in the links. RDT2 11:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This is really getting way, way beyond a joke. After last nights' extensive additions the article is now at a ridiculous 63kB. This is approximately double the recommended size of 32 kB. Something has to give. And I do not intend this as a criticism of the User who added all the material yesterday, because some of it is certainly better/more worthy of a place in the article than what was already there.
Can someone please respond to this, because every time I have raised this issue I have been very pointedly ignored. We need to act on this if we are ever to get anywhere near WP:FA. Suggestions please. -- Mais oui! 11:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've taken out a small section of the 'military' that's readily available on the British Armed Forces link. Not much, but every little...?-- 130.209.6.40 12:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that "silly details like the smoking ban could also be removed." Unless there is going to be an entire list of laws, or banned/illegal habits, this should be removed not just from here, but from all Wikipedia except relevant tobacco and smoking articles. -- Lorraine LeBeau 14:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks for this detailed contribution, yet again. -- Mais oui! 00:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, MoS says:
These are events that had international ramifications beyond the Scotland article, an article about what happened in 1005 is useful for contextual purposes. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 22:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been watching this going on for a while now and I haven't actually done anything. The thing is, although I disagree with 129's definition of nation, I don't quite understand why the word "nation" is used here. I'm not denying it's correct or anything, it just seems a little polemical - Scotland isn't normally called that. Other reference sources steer clear of the term:
Hutchinson: "The northernmost part of Great Britain"
1911 Britannica: "... that portion of Great Britain which lies north of the English border"
Oxford paperback dictionary: "The country forming the northern part of Great Britain"
Encarta (my favourite): "One of the four national units that make up the United Kingdom"
I haven't been through the above discussions yet but was there a reason that nation was chosen above country, region or part? My own preference would be for some sort of rewrite of the first paragraph - there's also a need to group the jumbled political/ geographical information. Something like: Scotland (Scottish Gaelic: Alba) is one of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom. It occupies the northern third of the island of Great Britain in northwest Europe and shares a land border to the south with England. It is bounded by the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the southwest. Apart from the mainland, Scotland consists of over 790 islands.
I think the terms "country", "nation" and "region of the United Kingdom" are all a little controversial as they are likely to annoy people with certain points of view, and although they're perfectly correct, the first two without being qualified might be assumed by non-British readers to mean "sovereign nation state". "Constituent country" and "northernmost part of Great Britain" are probably a little less controversial and so might be more suitable. Please tell me what you think. There may be good reasons why my version won't work but I'd like to find some sort of consensus that will satisfy everyone, including unregistered users, as well as being correct. Best-- Lo2u ( T • C) 18:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with what Doric Loon says, as far as Nations go (though I'd never consider the UK to be a nation). To me, a nation is usually made up of a people, sharing a common culture, identity, and usually land. Well, we've got heritage (albeit Gael, Teutonic, and Norse), culture, and a Scottish national identity, plus countless folks songs calling for "A nation once again," so why not use the word? Another thought here: How does a nation/country occupy part of a country? Will our nation simply move over to New Jersey one day? I'd prefer "makes up" there. With both of these in mind, how about this?:
Scotland (Scottish Gaelic: Alba) is a nation in northwest Europe, one of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom. It [occupies | makes up] the northern third of the island of Great Britain, and shares a land border to the south with England.
File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Nation and country are not only acceptable but would be correct. Scots and Scotland are/is a nation, because they/it form[s] a distinct cultural unit. It is a country because it is also a distinct legal unit, internally and externally. These are technical and legal definitions- albeit reduced by me. That is what Wikipedia should also strive to do. If the general public is unclear, we are here to make sure that they no longer are when they come here. Gary Joseph 21:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point and I would agree with you. It is interesting that the two articles referring to units of the UK, Scotland and Northern Ireland are the two that have nomenclature sensitivity issues. I think that " one of the four contituent countries of the United Kingdom" should be the opening line for this article, as well as the one for Wales, Northern Ireland, and England. Enough people think that they are seperate states, similar to the US, that the current opening line would reinforce or add to that confusion. Gary Joseph 22:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Globaltraveller. This really is my last post now. You're right I do object to the placement of Europe over UK. I think it's designed to reflect the Scottish nationalist belief that a closer relationship between nations and regions of the EU should eventually come to supercede the union between the constituent countries of the UK. It hasn't yet and the current order just seems forced. However I do also object to the word nation - it's vague and abstract, having more to do with what people like call themselves than what Scotland is officially called, and to most people it means independent country. That doesn't mean that I object to Scotland being repeatedly referred to as "the/a nation" in the text as long as its position is clarified in the opening lines. "Constituent country" is what Scotland is officially called, and I don't think anyone would assume with the word "constituent" that this means independent state. If you object to the word "country", do you also object to "constituent unit"? How about "One of the national units that make up the United Kingdom" - would you find that acceptable? Or is there something other than nation in Europe? I also think, as I've said, that the opening sentence of the paragraph about Edinburgh is a bit of a mouthful and I don't understand why it was changed. I've avoided being very clear in my arguments assuming I'd be labelled an English nationalist, which I'm not by the way. I'm Welsh by birth and have little English ancestry. I use the England user box because it was the only one I could find that didn't say "This user is proud to be...". -- Lo2u ( T • C) 11:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with "one of the nations of the United Kingdom" or "Scotland is a nation and constituent country of the United Kingdom" or something similar and the purging of the reference to Europe if it made some people happier, although I do think you are perhaps reading a bit too much into the nature of edits and the placing of words. I'm not particularly interested in what people see themselves as, what their political beliefs or motivations are as opposed to the wording of the article. Even though, as I said before, I see why the phrase "constituent country" has to be included as a definition I strongly dislike what is a fuzzy concept, which is far more confusing for the reader than the use of nation. It seems to be a wikipedia "invention" with little or no basis in accepted wisdom let alone conventional definition. Mali is a "constituent country" of Africa, but it is a sovereign independent state. Scotland is a constituent country of the United Kingdom but isn't a sovereign independent state. This then leads to more confusion and fuzziness when the bottom of the introductory section clarifies that Scotland is indeed not independent or sovereign - but it is a "constituent country"! Nation or national is far more widely utilised as a method of describing Scotland - the National Trust for Scotland, the Scottish national football team, the National Library of Scotland etc. I also agre with one of the above points, this is how a great many people in Scotland view where they live and the projection of that, and it should be at least respected as a definition (at the outset) of Scotland. And no that isn't a purely nationalist viewpoint. Thanks Globaltraveller 18:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
"Constituent country is quite clearly in the opening lines. It's in the first sentence. What is wrong with that? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 20:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)