This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Seem to be getting beat with the rv vandalism stick, but they are sourced and probably do make sense in the article - but not in the the introduction:
So where? / wangi 17:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
No worries, must be somewhere else info can go. Def should be included somewhere
Added crime/social problems under a separate heading further in the article. You are right, better off not in the intro! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinorthernireland ( talk • contribs)
I've moved the text in question into the Demographics section. Not sure if this is suitable, but better than having it in the Geography section! - calum 19:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I just think it should be included because its true. Scotland has an extremely high murder rate - fact. Wikipedia is not here to gloss over the negative parts of Scotland. Overall its a good place but i think a short paragragh on social problems is sensible —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinorthernireland ( talk • contribs)
Right ta for backing me up on this one Wangi. User SFC9394 u obv care about this more than i do - I mentioned that Scotland has the second highest murder rate in Western Europe (fact not POV or FUD or whatever you wanna call it). That is a valid comparison. No point comparing to murder rate in some random asian/african countries than the local countries in Europe. Anyhow guys change whatever you like, i'm not that bothered but i don't think it was POV!! if anyone wants to find a comparison for the drugs/drink fact feel free btw. Wikinorthernireland 22:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
yes the info should be kept mate! it's trimmed down fine btw, i couldn't be bothered arguing over it to be honest. That interesting about Edinburgh - maybe we'll have to get sorted on that page too (?!). Funny i had heard from people that Edinburgh is getting on the rough side too. Maybe i should stay away from Scottish articles as the Tartan wikipedians here seem to not like anything negative being said about the place. Didn't expect such a furious reponse to a paragraph on the crime in Scotland! Only kidding guys - it's nice you guys care about your country and what other people say about it! But nope i think it's best i still make contributions where i feel necessary and not feel censored. All the best guys. :-) Wikinorthernireland 22:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
True i agree Scotlands crime rate is prob not as high compared to North America. However there is no denying Scotland has a shockingly high crime rate compared to the 3 other constituent parts of the UK (England, Northern Ireland ans Wales) and in comparison to other Western European countries. True alot of the crime may be focused/centred on Glasgow and to a lesser extent Edinburgh but i def think some reference must be made to it. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and i think encyclopedias must include some reference to a high levels of criminal activity. As i have said before Scotland is a great country but there are alot of areas in central Scotland with very high crime rates, poor diet, low educational standards and poor life expectancy (compared to other parts of UK) Wikinorthernireland 16:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Just looking at some other country articles, and it is indeed true that none of them have such a section. Finland, for example came top in the WHO report, but strangely enough that isn't mentioned into the preamble to the article. New sources should be found that provide actual data, and there is a whole Demographics of Scotland article that could do with some expansion and a section on (considered) social problems would be welcome. Other than that I can only assume judging by this users' spamming of both the Glasgow and Edinburgh articles, these are nothing more than POV edits. Sorry. Globaltraveller 21:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
In respons to Globetravellers comment - i have not been spamming, not a very nice comment and maybe Finland should have a section on its horrendous crime rate. They aren't POV - how many times do i have to say!!! - no1 believes me!!! Good call Astrotrain on the parliament making everything illegal lol :-) Wikinorthernireland 22:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Whatever you want Mr Globetraveller "They've been removed" - i dunno how u alone can decide what can be removed. You obv don't like anyone portraying scotland in a bad light - i see you're a scottish wikipedian - quelle surprise!!!!! All you guys love to gang up on ppl that say anything negative. Really i wasn't that bothered about my additions until every1 started being so strange on this talk page. Anyhow what about at least mentioning more stuff about crime in Glasgow section ----it def isn't out of place there. Glasgow has terrible crime problems - must be mentioned. And for the 100000th time what i have written is not POV......if it was you'd know thats for sure Wikinorthernireland 22:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I agree with wikinorthernireland. i've re-added the work. I think it should be included and we should be nicer to each other on wikipedia esp. Globaltraveller!!!! Crime in scotland is pretty high and i think it is right and proper to be included - after all it is all sourced! Also you can't just say wikinorthernireland is 'spamming' just cos u don't like the content - face the truth, encyclopedias include the truth and hard facts whether we like them or not 143.117.143.33 07:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Also the user Globaltraveller should not be just a bully on this. it is wikipedia not Globaltraveller-pedia lol or Scotland-R-Us-pedia! 143.117.143.33 07:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC) The data on crime merits inclusion - simple as. After all it is only a few lines in an article that is overall is gleaming about scotland and positive positive positive. A consideration of some of the negatives in a country with the second highest murder rate in Europe is suitable. I think this one will run and run. 143.117.143.33 07:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello just to add some more support for Wikinorthernireland and 143.117.143.33 . Yet again there has been vandalism and somebody has removed the section on social problems. This is not on. At least discuss how to make the section better but it must be included> 143.117.143.41 09:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Good to know other people agree about the Scottish stuff - Can't believe this is still an issue!!! lol Wikinorthernireland 09:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I can assure you I have nowt to do with the wikinorthernireland user - completely independent. The fact that possibly some edits to wikipedia articles may have come from this IP addy is cos its a shared computer at a university campus therefore there are 100s of comps with the same address :-) Now no more accusations people and keep in clean ! 143.117.143.41 10:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok get a life mate and stop trying to be poirot - ur not doing that good a job !! This actually is a hoot. i said at the start of this whole talk thing that i didn't care that much to be honest. I only cared more when ppl started been nasty on this! taje a chill pill. but no matter what Scotland does have 2nd highest mueder rate in W.Europe. You guys can try and conceal it as much as you like but i think its encyclopedia-worthy. Wikinorthernireland 10:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I await the next nasty comment soon btw - but please be nice otherwise you guys will actually have me in stiches - its not that impt really in the scheme of things its only an internet encyclopedia! Wikinorthernireland 10:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
A compromise might be an idea. Originally facts were posted about Scotlands murder rate in the intro and a compromise of a separate section in the article was accepted. How about working like adults and either producing a whole article on Scotlands problems or accept a few lines in the main article. Oh i'm independent of the wikinorthernireland btw before any more assumptions!!!! 143.117.143.41 10:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thats fine. I don't think i'll be bothering with anymore of this anyhow. Good luck to all
Wikinorthernireland 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This edit to the Glasgow article, by an IP address, looks very much like the work of User:Wikinorthernireland. Thanks. -- Mais oui! 12:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and made my suggested edit, visible in the template, and tried my hand at writing the article linked in the box, Multiple unofficial anthems. I know it probably needs work, and if it's unacceptable then I apologise for overstepping my authority or allowance, but thought it was worth a go to see if it was a possible option.
-- Thanks.
Kaenei 07:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Article has been changed to
National Anthem of Scotland and some nice Wikipedians have done some editing -- I think it looks really good, and better than "Nothing", in the infobox. :)
Kaenei 00:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I've just seen that the Infobox has been edited and "God Save the Queen (UK de-facto) has been removed with the justification in the history file "GSTQ is ont the Scottish national anthem," explaining it. I was just wondering if there's a point in trying to contribute to new ideas if the reasons aren't listed here, in a section debating such, so other people can contribute.
It's fairly obvious to most people GSTQ us not the national anthem of Scotland, which is why the edit I had made included the words afterwards. Whilst I'm new here, I don't really see the point of a discussion page if people make changes to other people's edits without debating or listing their points for discussion. Seems people might as well just change what they -think- is right? Of course that isn't a solution, but nobody seems to be taking me on.
Kaenei 08:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Etymology The word Scot was borrowed from Latin and its use, to refer to Scotland, dates from at least the first half of the 10th century, when it first appeared in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as a reference to the Land of the Gaels, analogous to the Latin Scotia"
Despite that this paragraph is called 'Etymology' I don't find any here. It is explained that this word has been used to refer to Scotland. Yes, that I knew all the time, since I knew the word. I had expected to find an explanation here or somewhere else, from where the word comes from and what it means. Ok, it derives from Latin 'Scotia'. Now the problem has just been moved. Has the word just popped up in Latin, or did the Romans take it from somewhere else, or is it actually a latin word with a specific meaning? Considering how much has been written about Scotland I wonder the more that still nobody has paid attention to the origin of the name. Could somebody please elaborate on this? The only clue I have is a mythological one about Scota the egyptian wife of Mil and a speculation about connections to the Scythians. Both seem a little too far stretched to me. Truchses 09:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Although no longer used for the purposes of local government, the traditional counties of Scotland are still used as geographical areas; as are the regions and districts of Scotland."
There are articles on older subdivisions still in use in Scotland which a user has deleted with the comments- "rv- POV", but without any real explanation of why it is POV to link to these pages. Astrotrain 20:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a "traditional county" in Scotland (and highly controversial in England or Wales too). This is entirely an invention of the dickhead vandals at the " Association of British Counties" (sic) and County Watch. Argyll existed many, many, many, many, many centuries before it became a "county" in 1889. Same for Orkney, Ayrshire, Moray, Midlothian, Fife, etc, etc, etc. -- Mais oui! 20:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
It is perhaps a bit harsh to totally remove this bit: "pronounced IPA: [ˈaɫapə], approximately "ALA-puh"". Can we put is as a footnote or something. I tried to do it but it looked silly. Is there a std Wikipedia method of putting footnotes?
(While I am here: this article, esp the history section, is still far too long. Can one of you history buffs please, please take some sensible secateurs to that section... please!!! We have absolutely tons of history articles for readers to (hopefully easily) find. We do not need everything at this main gateway article.) -- Mais oui! 08:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
When the article discusses the current devolution system, could it state that the it was endorsed in a Scottish referendum in 1997? It's interesting to point out that the Scottish people chose this system in preference to the then status quo, or outright independance. (New member, never edited a page before! Want to run this past you all first)
What about this wording (i've checked, the Welsh devolution referendum was in the same year). You are correct on the independance question, by the way:
Constitutionally the United Kingdom is a unitary state with one sovereign parliament and government. Under a system of devolution (or home rule), adopted after Scottish and Welsh referendums on devolution proposals in 1997, the constitutent countries within the United Kingdom were given limited self-government. This was still subject to the ability of the British Parliament in Westminster at will to amend, change, broaden or abolish the devolved governmental systems.
As I understand it, Scottish defense is the responsibility of Westminster, but the article makes no mention of the word Defense, even. Most other national articles I've read through ( Germany) make a mention of their Defense forces. I figure it should be mentioned here, somewhere. HellaNorCal 00:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Would it not be appropriate to mention the, very significant, resources of the Armed forces of the United Kingdom which are located in Scotland? For example, the fact that Scotland hosts the UK's entire nuclear arsenal, only a few miles outside the largest city, Glasgow, seems to be a very, very important fact, which certainly deserves a mention in an encyclopaedia article. Eg, see:
or, internally:
Thanks. -- Mais oui! 09:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Seem to be getting beat with the rv vandalism stick, but they are sourced and probably do make sense in the article - but not in the the introduction:
So where? / wangi 17:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
No worries, must be somewhere else info can go. Def should be included somewhere
Added crime/social problems under a separate heading further in the article. You are right, better off not in the intro! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinorthernireland ( talk • contribs)
I've moved the text in question into the Demographics section. Not sure if this is suitable, but better than having it in the Geography section! - calum 19:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I just think it should be included because its true. Scotland has an extremely high murder rate - fact. Wikipedia is not here to gloss over the negative parts of Scotland. Overall its a good place but i think a short paragragh on social problems is sensible —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinorthernireland ( talk • contribs)
Right ta for backing me up on this one Wangi. User SFC9394 u obv care about this more than i do - I mentioned that Scotland has the second highest murder rate in Western Europe (fact not POV or FUD or whatever you wanna call it). That is a valid comparison. No point comparing to murder rate in some random asian/african countries than the local countries in Europe. Anyhow guys change whatever you like, i'm not that bothered but i don't think it was POV!! if anyone wants to find a comparison for the drugs/drink fact feel free btw. Wikinorthernireland 22:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
yes the info should be kept mate! it's trimmed down fine btw, i couldn't be bothered arguing over it to be honest. That interesting about Edinburgh - maybe we'll have to get sorted on that page too (?!). Funny i had heard from people that Edinburgh is getting on the rough side too. Maybe i should stay away from Scottish articles as the Tartan wikipedians here seem to not like anything negative being said about the place. Didn't expect such a furious reponse to a paragraph on the crime in Scotland! Only kidding guys - it's nice you guys care about your country and what other people say about it! But nope i think it's best i still make contributions where i feel necessary and not feel censored. All the best guys. :-) Wikinorthernireland 22:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
True i agree Scotlands crime rate is prob not as high compared to North America. However there is no denying Scotland has a shockingly high crime rate compared to the 3 other constituent parts of the UK (England, Northern Ireland ans Wales) and in comparison to other Western European countries. True alot of the crime may be focused/centred on Glasgow and to a lesser extent Edinburgh but i def think some reference must be made to it. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and i think encyclopedias must include some reference to a high levels of criminal activity. As i have said before Scotland is a great country but there are alot of areas in central Scotland with very high crime rates, poor diet, low educational standards and poor life expectancy (compared to other parts of UK) Wikinorthernireland 16:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Just looking at some other country articles, and it is indeed true that none of them have such a section. Finland, for example came top in the WHO report, but strangely enough that isn't mentioned into the preamble to the article. New sources should be found that provide actual data, and there is a whole Demographics of Scotland article that could do with some expansion and a section on (considered) social problems would be welcome. Other than that I can only assume judging by this users' spamming of both the Glasgow and Edinburgh articles, these are nothing more than POV edits. Sorry. Globaltraveller 21:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
In respons to Globetravellers comment - i have not been spamming, not a very nice comment and maybe Finland should have a section on its horrendous crime rate. They aren't POV - how many times do i have to say!!! - no1 believes me!!! Good call Astrotrain on the parliament making everything illegal lol :-) Wikinorthernireland 22:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Whatever you want Mr Globetraveller "They've been removed" - i dunno how u alone can decide what can be removed. You obv don't like anyone portraying scotland in a bad light - i see you're a scottish wikipedian - quelle surprise!!!!! All you guys love to gang up on ppl that say anything negative. Really i wasn't that bothered about my additions until every1 started being so strange on this talk page. Anyhow what about at least mentioning more stuff about crime in Glasgow section ----it def isn't out of place there. Glasgow has terrible crime problems - must be mentioned. And for the 100000th time what i have written is not POV......if it was you'd know thats for sure Wikinorthernireland 22:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I agree with wikinorthernireland. i've re-added the work. I think it should be included and we should be nicer to each other on wikipedia esp. Globaltraveller!!!! Crime in scotland is pretty high and i think it is right and proper to be included - after all it is all sourced! Also you can't just say wikinorthernireland is 'spamming' just cos u don't like the content - face the truth, encyclopedias include the truth and hard facts whether we like them or not 143.117.143.33 07:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Also the user Globaltraveller should not be just a bully on this. it is wikipedia not Globaltraveller-pedia lol or Scotland-R-Us-pedia! 143.117.143.33 07:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC) The data on crime merits inclusion - simple as. After all it is only a few lines in an article that is overall is gleaming about scotland and positive positive positive. A consideration of some of the negatives in a country with the second highest murder rate in Europe is suitable. I think this one will run and run. 143.117.143.33 07:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello just to add some more support for Wikinorthernireland and 143.117.143.33 . Yet again there has been vandalism and somebody has removed the section on social problems. This is not on. At least discuss how to make the section better but it must be included> 143.117.143.41 09:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Good to know other people agree about the Scottish stuff - Can't believe this is still an issue!!! lol Wikinorthernireland 09:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I can assure you I have nowt to do with the wikinorthernireland user - completely independent. The fact that possibly some edits to wikipedia articles may have come from this IP addy is cos its a shared computer at a university campus therefore there are 100s of comps with the same address :-) Now no more accusations people and keep in clean ! 143.117.143.41 10:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok get a life mate and stop trying to be poirot - ur not doing that good a job !! This actually is a hoot. i said at the start of this whole talk thing that i didn't care that much to be honest. I only cared more when ppl started been nasty on this! taje a chill pill. but no matter what Scotland does have 2nd highest mueder rate in W.Europe. You guys can try and conceal it as much as you like but i think its encyclopedia-worthy. Wikinorthernireland 10:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I await the next nasty comment soon btw - but please be nice otherwise you guys will actually have me in stiches - its not that impt really in the scheme of things its only an internet encyclopedia! Wikinorthernireland 10:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
A compromise might be an idea. Originally facts were posted about Scotlands murder rate in the intro and a compromise of a separate section in the article was accepted. How about working like adults and either producing a whole article on Scotlands problems or accept a few lines in the main article. Oh i'm independent of the wikinorthernireland btw before any more assumptions!!!! 143.117.143.41 10:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thats fine. I don't think i'll be bothering with anymore of this anyhow. Good luck to all
Wikinorthernireland 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This edit to the Glasgow article, by an IP address, looks very much like the work of User:Wikinorthernireland. Thanks. -- Mais oui! 12:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and made my suggested edit, visible in the template, and tried my hand at writing the article linked in the box, Multiple unofficial anthems. I know it probably needs work, and if it's unacceptable then I apologise for overstepping my authority or allowance, but thought it was worth a go to see if it was a possible option.
-- Thanks.
Kaenei 07:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Article has been changed to
National Anthem of Scotland and some nice Wikipedians have done some editing -- I think it looks really good, and better than "Nothing", in the infobox. :)
Kaenei 00:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I've just seen that the Infobox has been edited and "God Save the Queen (UK de-facto) has been removed with the justification in the history file "GSTQ is ont the Scottish national anthem," explaining it. I was just wondering if there's a point in trying to contribute to new ideas if the reasons aren't listed here, in a section debating such, so other people can contribute.
It's fairly obvious to most people GSTQ us not the national anthem of Scotland, which is why the edit I had made included the words afterwards. Whilst I'm new here, I don't really see the point of a discussion page if people make changes to other people's edits without debating or listing their points for discussion. Seems people might as well just change what they -think- is right? Of course that isn't a solution, but nobody seems to be taking me on.
Kaenei 08:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Etymology The word Scot was borrowed from Latin and its use, to refer to Scotland, dates from at least the first half of the 10th century, when it first appeared in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as a reference to the Land of the Gaels, analogous to the Latin Scotia"
Despite that this paragraph is called 'Etymology' I don't find any here. It is explained that this word has been used to refer to Scotland. Yes, that I knew all the time, since I knew the word. I had expected to find an explanation here or somewhere else, from where the word comes from and what it means. Ok, it derives from Latin 'Scotia'. Now the problem has just been moved. Has the word just popped up in Latin, or did the Romans take it from somewhere else, or is it actually a latin word with a specific meaning? Considering how much has been written about Scotland I wonder the more that still nobody has paid attention to the origin of the name. Could somebody please elaborate on this? The only clue I have is a mythological one about Scota the egyptian wife of Mil and a speculation about connections to the Scythians. Both seem a little too far stretched to me. Truchses 09:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Although no longer used for the purposes of local government, the traditional counties of Scotland are still used as geographical areas; as are the regions and districts of Scotland."
There are articles on older subdivisions still in use in Scotland which a user has deleted with the comments- "rv- POV", but without any real explanation of why it is POV to link to these pages. Astrotrain 20:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a "traditional county" in Scotland (and highly controversial in England or Wales too). This is entirely an invention of the dickhead vandals at the " Association of British Counties" (sic) and County Watch. Argyll existed many, many, many, many, many centuries before it became a "county" in 1889. Same for Orkney, Ayrshire, Moray, Midlothian, Fife, etc, etc, etc. -- Mais oui! 20:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
It is perhaps a bit harsh to totally remove this bit: "pronounced IPA: [ˈaɫapə], approximately "ALA-puh"". Can we put is as a footnote or something. I tried to do it but it looked silly. Is there a std Wikipedia method of putting footnotes?
(While I am here: this article, esp the history section, is still far too long. Can one of you history buffs please, please take some sensible secateurs to that section... please!!! We have absolutely tons of history articles for readers to (hopefully easily) find. We do not need everything at this main gateway article.) -- Mais oui! 08:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
When the article discusses the current devolution system, could it state that the it was endorsed in a Scottish referendum in 1997? It's interesting to point out that the Scottish people chose this system in preference to the then status quo, or outright independance. (New member, never edited a page before! Want to run this past you all first)
What about this wording (i've checked, the Welsh devolution referendum was in the same year). You are correct on the independance question, by the way:
Constitutionally the United Kingdom is a unitary state with one sovereign parliament and government. Under a system of devolution (or home rule), adopted after Scottish and Welsh referendums on devolution proposals in 1997, the constitutent countries within the United Kingdom were given limited self-government. This was still subject to the ability of the British Parliament in Westminster at will to amend, change, broaden or abolish the devolved governmental systems.
As I understand it, Scottish defense is the responsibility of Westminster, but the article makes no mention of the word Defense, even. Most other national articles I've read through ( Germany) make a mention of their Defense forces. I figure it should be mentioned here, somewhere. HellaNorCal 00:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Would it not be appropriate to mention the, very significant, resources of the Armed forces of the United Kingdom which are located in Scotland? For example, the fact that Scotland hosts the UK's entire nuclear arsenal, only a few miles outside the largest city, Glasgow, seems to be a very, very important fact, which certainly deserves a mention in an encyclopaedia article. Eg, see:
or, internally:
Thanks. -- Mais oui! 09:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)