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Scotland article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Frequently asked questions Introduction Issues relating to the geography and politics of the United Kingdom and nearby territories can be surprisingly complex and controversial, and the subjects raised in this FAQ regarding the Scotland article are best understood in this context. We aim to be enyclopaedic and neutral. We also recognise that reconciling diverse views can be hard work as common phrases are sometimes interpreted in different ways in different cultures. We ask that editors new to this page read the following with an open mind. Where necessary, please research the facts rather than simply jumping to conclusions based on what you "know to be true".
A1: Numerous reliable sources support the view that Scotland is a country—see for example the article entitled Countries of the United Kingdom, and a table of references at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/refs. This view is shared with other reputable encyclopedias. There has been a long-standing consensus to describe Scotland in this way. This is one of the most frequent questions raised by visitors to this talk page. However, in the absence of a formal British constitution, and owing to a convoluted history of the formation of the United Kingdom, a variety of terms exist which are used to refer to Scotland [1], England, Northern Ireland, Wales and the UK itself. Reliable and official sources support use of the word "countries", and this term has broadly won preference amongst the editing community. Note however, that a country is not the same as a "sovereign state", and that " constituent country" is also used in other parts of Wikipedia. The community endeavours to achieve an atmosphere of neutrality, compromise, and camaraderie on this issue.
A2: Widespread confusion surrounds the use of the word "nation". In standard British English, and in academic language, a nation is defined as a social group and not a division of land. This is also the approach taken in the article entitled nation, across Wikipedia and in other major encyclopedias (for example, the Scottish people and the Québécois are described as "nations"). The term Home Nations is generally used only in sporting contexts. It is not used in major reputable sources outside of sport.
A3: There have been extremely complex discussion about these matters. The Royal Standard of Scotland (commonly referred to as the "Lion Rampant") was used by the King of Scots until 1603. Today, its correct use is restricted to official representatives of The Monarch. [2] The blue and white Saltire is the flag of Scotland and is widely used by national and local government offices and in numerous other less official capacities. As with other issues described here this outcome is to some extent a compromise solution that seems to suit all parties in that it identifies symbols of Scotland as an entity in its own right, whilst also emphasising the importance of the relationship with the United Kingdom.
A4: There is no official Scottish national anthem. Although there is no doubt that Flower of Scotland is currently amongst the most popular unofficial national anthems in Scotland, it is not the only one, nor even the longest established.
A5: Scots is spoken by 30% of the Scottish population (approximately 1.5 million individuals) according to the 1996 estimate of the General Register Office for Scotland. [3] It is recognised by the European Union's European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. [4] By contrast, Scottish English is a variation of standard British English. Whilst the distinction is by no means clear cut, Wikipedia policy permits the use of Scottish English words and phrases where appropriate. Scots, on the other hand, has its own site: see the Scots Wikipedia.
A6: Yes, but " Elizabeth II" is her legal title, as resolved in Scots law in the legal action entitled MacCormick v. Lord Advocate. Related issues
A7: See the article entitled " Terminology of the British Isles". Great Britain is the name of the largest island that the UK encompasses, and is not generally used in source material as the name of the sovereign state.
A8: This view is supported by some sources, but the current consensus amongst the editing community is aligned to a greater body of work which describes both Northern Ireland and Wales as countries. However, the terms are not all mutually exclusive: a country can also be a principality or a province, and these terms are mentioned throughout Wikipedia as alternative names in afternotes. References
|
This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Scotland was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Yeah, I'm really confused isn't the audio track in the header of this article, supposed to be a pronunciation guide for the word "Scotland"? But for some reason it says "Uhvupa". Am I missing something or do we need to re-record it? DSQ ( talk) 11:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi,
Much work has been done by myself and other users to improve this article, and I have nominated it for a geography and places good article as I believe the article to be unto the standard of a good article since the last review which delisted the article in 2019. At a review of the articles good status in January 2019, it was flagged about the lack of guidance in following the "well written" criteria of a good article, it was noted in the review ; A good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world"
Fails in the first sentence - "Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom." Apart from the ugly grammar it should be noted that other country articles do notbegin, eg:
It further explained: Note that the Scotland article comes under the auspices of WikiProject:Countries, which states explicitly that "The article should start with a good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like".
I therefore changed this in order to reflect the pending changes to bring the article back up to good article status, by re-wording the lead to read "Scotland is a country in northwest Europe which is part of the United Kingdom...." but see this has been reverted by another user. What is everyone's thoughts on this change? Goodreg3 ( talk) 20:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, mainly located on the northern part of the island of Great Britain, in north-western Europe.
Just to be clear, my last reversion to the lead paragraph is intended to return it to a stable state while discussion is ongoing rather than to impose my own preferences. I have no intention of getting into an edit war, as I hope my engagement with the discussion here demonstrates. A.D.Hope ( talk) 00:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The longstanding status quo for the lead? should remain, as it was the result of a hard-fought consensus (I was a part of those old discussions) both 'here' & at the intros to England, Wales & Scotland. Furthermore, the British prime minister should not be included in the infobox of this page 'or' the infoboxes at England, Wales & Northern Ireland. PS - For example: We don't include the US president in the infoboxes of US states. Nor do we include the Canadian prime minister in the infoboxes of Canadian provinces & territories. GoodDay ( talk) 22:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The side bar gives a list of four official languages and a source that links to a non existent page.
On the other hand, if you visit the Scottish government website, the only language that has a law proclaiming its officiality seems to be Gaelic:
https://www.gov.scot/policies/languages/
Can anyone find any source for the other three (Scots, English and BSL)?
-- 77.75.179.1 ( talk) 04:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Seeing as there are differing views and sources on the motto, would it not be best to list both 'nemo me impune lacessit' and 'in my defens God me defend'? I don't feel passionately about either motto—I'm just keen to ensure accuracy.
The Scotsman on 'nemo me impune lacessit': 'It is usually used in conjunction with the motto for the royal coat of arms ‘In my defens God me defend’.' https://www.scotsman.com/arts-and-culture/scottish-fact-of-the-day-nemo-me-impune-lacessit-1516025
A ceremonial sword made in 2023 uses both: https://www.historicenvironment.scot/archives-and-research/archives-and-collections/properties-in-care-collections/object/the-elizabeth-sword-mark-dennis-2023-21st-century-edinburgh-castle-52244
The Wiki article on ' In my defens God me defend' claims that this is the motto of Scotland as in Scottish heraldry, the motto is at the top, not the bottom as in English heraldry. Dgp4004 ( talk) 11:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
References
...and for his Majesties Royall mottos, in an escroll bove all In Defens and under in the table of the compartment Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I suggest adding a distinct section within the History of Scotland section that deals with Scotland's involvement in the British Empire. MiloThatch 98 ( talk) 23:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Scotland article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Frequently asked questions Introduction Issues relating to the geography and politics of the United Kingdom and nearby territories can be surprisingly complex and controversial, and the subjects raised in this FAQ regarding the Scotland article are best understood in this context. We aim to be enyclopaedic and neutral. We also recognise that reconciling diverse views can be hard work as common phrases are sometimes interpreted in different ways in different cultures. We ask that editors new to this page read the following with an open mind. Where necessary, please research the facts rather than simply jumping to conclusions based on what you "know to be true".
A1: Numerous reliable sources support the view that Scotland is a country—see for example the article entitled Countries of the United Kingdom, and a table of references at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/refs. This view is shared with other reputable encyclopedias. There has been a long-standing consensus to describe Scotland in this way. This is one of the most frequent questions raised by visitors to this talk page. However, in the absence of a formal British constitution, and owing to a convoluted history of the formation of the United Kingdom, a variety of terms exist which are used to refer to Scotland [1], England, Northern Ireland, Wales and the UK itself. Reliable and official sources support use of the word "countries", and this term has broadly won preference amongst the editing community. Note however, that a country is not the same as a "sovereign state", and that " constituent country" is also used in other parts of Wikipedia. The community endeavours to achieve an atmosphere of neutrality, compromise, and camaraderie on this issue.
A2: Widespread confusion surrounds the use of the word "nation". In standard British English, and in academic language, a nation is defined as a social group and not a division of land. This is also the approach taken in the article entitled nation, across Wikipedia and in other major encyclopedias (for example, the Scottish people and the Québécois are described as "nations"). The term Home Nations is generally used only in sporting contexts. It is not used in major reputable sources outside of sport.
A3: There have been extremely complex discussion about these matters. The Royal Standard of Scotland (commonly referred to as the "Lion Rampant") was used by the King of Scots until 1603. Today, its correct use is restricted to official representatives of The Monarch. [2] The blue and white Saltire is the flag of Scotland and is widely used by national and local government offices and in numerous other less official capacities. As with other issues described here this outcome is to some extent a compromise solution that seems to suit all parties in that it identifies symbols of Scotland as an entity in its own right, whilst also emphasising the importance of the relationship with the United Kingdom.
A4: There is no official Scottish national anthem. Although there is no doubt that Flower of Scotland is currently amongst the most popular unofficial national anthems in Scotland, it is not the only one, nor even the longest established.
A5: Scots is spoken by 30% of the Scottish population (approximately 1.5 million individuals) according to the 1996 estimate of the General Register Office for Scotland. [3] It is recognised by the European Union's European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. [4] By contrast, Scottish English is a variation of standard British English. Whilst the distinction is by no means clear cut, Wikipedia policy permits the use of Scottish English words and phrases where appropriate. Scots, on the other hand, has its own site: see the Scots Wikipedia.
A6: Yes, but " Elizabeth II" is her legal title, as resolved in Scots law in the legal action entitled MacCormick v. Lord Advocate. Related issues
A7: See the article entitled " Terminology of the British Isles". Great Britain is the name of the largest island that the UK encompasses, and is not generally used in source material as the name of the sovereign state.
A8: This view is supported by some sources, but the current consensus amongst the editing community is aligned to a greater body of work which describes both Northern Ireland and Wales as countries. However, the terms are not all mutually exclusive: a country can also be a principality or a province, and these terms are mentioned throughout Wikipedia as alternative names in afternotes. References
|
This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Scotland was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
To-do list for Scotland:
Priority 1 (top)
|
Other talk page banners | |||
|
Yeah, I'm really confused isn't the audio track in the header of this article, supposed to be a pronunciation guide for the word "Scotland"? But for some reason it says "Uhvupa". Am I missing something or do we need to re-record it? DSQ ( talk) 11:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi,
Much work has been done by myself and other users to improve this article, and I have nominated it for a geography and places good article as I believe the article to be unto the standard of a good article since the last review which delisted the article in 2019. At a review of the articles good status in January 2019, it was flagged about the lack of guidance in following the "well written" criteria of a good article, it was noted in the review ; A good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world"
Fails in the first sentence - "Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom." Apart from the ugly grammar it should be noted that other country articles do notbegin, eg:
It further explained: Note that the Scotland article comes under the auspices of WikiProject:Countries, which states explicitly that "The article should start with a good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like".
I therefore changed this in order to reflect the pending changes to bring the article back up to good article status, by re-wording the lead to read "Scotland is a country in northwest Europe which is part of the United Kingdom...." but see this has been reverted by another user. What is everyone's thoughts on this change? Goodreg3 ( talk) 20:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, mainly located on the northern part of the island of Great Britain, in north-western Europe.
Just to be clear, my last reversion to the lead paragraph is intended to return it to a stable state while discussion is ongoing rather than to impose my own preferences. I have no intention of getting into an edit war, as I hope my engagement with the discussion here demonstrates. A.D.Hope ( talk) 00:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The longstanding status quo for the lead? should remain, as it was the result of a hard-fought consensus (I was a part of those old discussions) both 'here' & at the intros to England, Wales & Scotland. Furthermore, the British prime minister should not be included in the infobox of this page 'or' the infoboxes at England, Wales & Northern Ireland. PS - For example: We don't include the US president in the infoboxes of US states. Nor do we include the Canadian prime minister in the infoboxes of Canadian provinces & territories. GoodDay ( talk) 22:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The side bar gives a list of four official languages and a source that links to a non existent page.
On the other hand, if you visit the Scottish government website, the only language that has a law proclaiming its officiality seems to be Gaelic:
https://www.gov.scot/policies/languages/
Can anyone find any source for the other three (Scots, English and BSL)?
-- 77.75.179.1 ( talk) 04:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Seeing as there are differing views and sources on the motto, would it not be best to list both 'nemo me impune lacessit' and 'in my defens God me defend'? I don't feel passionately about either motto—I'm just keen to ensure accuracy.
The Scotsman on 'nemo me impune lacessit': 'It is usually used in conjunction with the motto for the royal coat of arms ‘In my defens God me defend’.' https://www.scotsman.com/arts-and-culture/scottish-fact-of-the-day-nemo-me-impune-lacessit-1516025
A ceremonial sword made in 2023 uses both: https://www.historicenvironment.scot/archives-and-research/archives-and-collections/properties-in-care-collections/object/the-elizabeth-sword-mark-dennis-2023-21st-century-edinburgh-castle-52244
The Wiki article on ' In my defens God me defend' claims that this is the motto of Scotland as in Scottish heraldry, the motto is at the top, not the bottom as in English heraldry. Dgp4004 ( talk) 11:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
References
...and for his Majesties Royall mottos, in an escroll bove all In Defens and under in the table of the compartment Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I suggest adding a distinct section within the History of Scotland section that deals with Scotland's involvement in the British Empire. MiloThatch 98 ( talk) 23:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)