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www.wordiq.com is not a reliable source. It is an online encyclopaedia which is based on Wikipedia. WP:RS is clear that Wikipedia and its mirrors should not be used as sources in Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia:Common knowledge is also worth reading if you are trying to make a point e.g. "the fact that scooters are not popular in the USA is something we all know anyway". Bottom line - all facts on Wikipedia should be properly sourced from reliable (and ideally secondary) sources. -- Biker Biker ( talk) 17:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
To only cite the surge in scooter (and motorcycle and moped) sales in 2007, when gas prices were high and the recession hadn't begun, is misleading and also not a very interesting story. In fact, sales have been very sensitive to gas prices and the boom in 2007 was followed by steep declines, with scooters suffering the most because they had gained the most during the high gas prices. A number of new scooter brands, and new electric scooters and motorcycles, that poped up when it looked like the public cared about fuel prices went belly up when the things turned around. In the long history of two wheelers, it has proven easier to start a bike company than a car company, but been tough for most companies to survive in the long run. Here's some links on the declines in after 2007:
-- Dbratland ( talk) 18:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Unknown parameter |newspaoer=
ignored (
help)I think the section on 3-wheeled scooters needs to be removed, in my view a scooter is defined as having only 2-wheels (else it's a trike). Another thing which is intresting to mention are stirling engine scooters, some have probably already been built and Kamen (supposedly) is also working on one, see http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/ariel-schwartz/sustainability/dean-kamens-newest-invention-stirling-engine-equipped-hybrid-moto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.233.228 ( talk) 13:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
See WP:WPACT and WP:MC-MOS. There is little consensus for pop culture sections in Wikipedia but incorporating pop culture references, with citations, into appropriate sections of the article is welcome. The main criteria is citing a source showing the media references had some effect on scooter sales, popularity, design, etc. For example, it's not hard to find citations to show that Roman Holiday affected the popularity of scooters in the US. Mention of Mod (subculture) and Quadrophenia in the history section makes sense. But you need to find that citation first before you add it to the article. Please do not add a list of cruft at the end of the article. Lists of pop culture references attract material that is based more on some editor's opinion rather than a cited reliable source showing that the pop culture instance had any affect on scooters. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 17:01, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
And another thing: the deleted material is far too obsessed with the UK. Wikipedia needs to be globally balanced -- see Wikipedia:Systemic bias. One of the ways to avoid bias is to stick closely to what sources give you, and not just whatever you've found. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This article is about motorscooters and as such it should be titled "motorscooter" and not the stupidly awkward "Scooter (motorcycle)". The redirect should be the main page and this page should become the redirect. scooteristi ( talk) 06:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The first sentence in the "Description" section just doesn't work. It's an attempt to take dictionary definitions of the word "scooter" and use them to synthesize a description of the bikes. That's not the same thing. "A motorcycle similar to a kick scooter with a seat" might be true at the conceptual level, but it's not a helpful description of most scooters. It's like reading a description of an elephant compiled by the blind men in the parable: you can see where it came from, but it doesn't match the object in question. (The fact that several of the definitions being used are decades old doesn't help in describing current vehicles.) We need to stop trying in vain to define "scooter" here; this is not a dictionary. Instead I would suggest the following opening statement in that section:
The rest of the section - which actually describes the common features of scooters, rather than trying to impose an abstract definition on them - is more successful. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 18:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
If citations are missing, fix them. If there are fact that need to be added, add them. But if it more or less tells the reader what a scooter is, it's fine, so leave it alone, and let's work on something more important. We're never going to get everyone to agree on the perfect wording, and drawing editors into these arguments wastes valuable volunteer resources. See also WP:LAME.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
To be honest I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about. The article seems to make a pretty good distinction between a scooter and a motorcycle which I believe the average reader would be interested in knowing about. Otherwise, why would the scooter article need to exist at all? -- Biker Biker ( talk) 10:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Unless the other citations directly say they are similar, then it's unsourced. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 15:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the original suggestion was to delete some of the definition, on the grounds that it is poorly sourced and irrelevant. Since it is essentially a challenge of the given sources, there isn't a burden on JasonAQuest to cite other sources. Especially since it's unlikely that a source can be found to directly contradict the one old dictionary that says a motor scooter is like a kick scooter.
More broadly, this isn't Simple English Wikipedia, and this isn't the Voyager Golden Record. Readers can be presumed to be moderately educated Earthlings who have probably seen a motor scooter in their lives. Most humans, such as those in China, India, Africa and elsewhere, in fact have probably seen many times more scooters than cars or trucks. Therefore only a brief and not overly-technical definition of scooter is necessary here.
The more salient point that many readers might not know is that there are many contradictory definitions of scooter (and moped and motorcycle) depending on legal jurisdiction. We should basically tell readers: "Wikipedia can't settle your argument with your mates over the definition of a true scooter. Check with your local Department of Motor Vehicles instead, or look it up in a dictionary, which Wikipedia is not."
We should also peruse Wikipedia:Citation overkill. Many of the citations currently in the article were put there to resolve disputes between editors, not to serve the needs of the reader. The excessive citations belong on the talk page as a means to reach consensus. One, two or, at most, three footnotes per fact ought to be enough for the reader, once consensus is reached. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
This topic ABSOLUTELY needs a section on Safety Statistics, concerns etc. The wiki for 'mopeds' has one, why not scooters? There should also be a link between motorcycles, scooters and mopeds delineating why they differ and how for legal intents and purposes scooters are sub-categorized as motorcycles.
108.27.246.135 ( talk) 12:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)persephone
Motorbikes are seen as harder to ride and have bigger engines, are larger and are manual gear shift so you need motorbike licence that qualifies you to deal with that. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 05:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Re https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scooter_(motorcycle)&curid=23809410&diff=728662943&oldid=728597328 and the queried relevance, "What is this image telling us about scooters or scooters in popular culture?".
I think this stands up. Looking around in urban Europe, especially the warmer south, the ability to ride a scooter in street clothes without donning bike leathers is an important aspect of their use. These mitts are very common on scooters, rare on bikes outside the depths of Winter (and usually with gloves on too). Handlebar mitts on scooters are often an alternative to gloves altogether. Andy Dingley ( talk) 08:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Obviously they are useful on any kind of two wheeler handlebar, and no doubt scooterists appreciate them as much as motorcyclists. There are now many imitations of Vetter's original, including models made for bicycling. If you really wanted to, you could write a whole article on the subject, though I think it would be a permastub and it would be best to add a paragraph or two to the articles motorcycle accessories and/or Craig Vetter.
My objection on this article is that I don't think bar mitts, by any brand name, or improvised, are specifically associated with scooters. If you have a source that says that the mitts went from being a 1970s touring accessory in the US to an accessory particularly used on scooters in Europe, that would be interesting and I'd want to see it on this article. Otherwise, perhaps it should be moved to a section that describes how riders often get creative and enterprising with homemade accessories like File:Bali-style-scooter.xcf or File:Postal Supercub MD.jpg or File:Honda Super Cub fully loaded.jpg. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:22, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
1st category
2nd category
cargo scooter?? Lit Motors Kubo. 89.201.184.86 ( talk) 18:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The title of this page seems to follow the logic that "Scooter" is the common accepted name, and they use (Motorcycle) to differentiate scooter from push scooters. However, commonly Scooters aren't seen as Motorcycles. Motorcylcists certainly don't see scooters as motorcycles, and scooterists see scooters as a separate thing. Normally, in terms of classifications, they are always listed separately. Certainly in sales pages, like E bay or Gum tree, the two get separate listings, and are referred to as separate things. Though both being two wheeled transport, apart from that have a host of differences, and are very different. Following on from the arguments presented in the original discussion above, (concerning motor scooter as two words) and considering common names, I'd like to suggest: * Scooter (Motor Scooter) *. This uses the common name, and uses the more formal term "motor scooter" to indicate it isn't a push scooter. If anyone has any feedback or objections, please speak up... but I think this is a good compromise to the previous discussion Deathlibrarian ( talk) 12:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
What this all comes down to is the WP:COMMONNAME guideline. What you need to do here is present evidence that the mainstream practice is to say Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton) or to say aspirin (not: acetylsalicylic acid). This not an easy task, but it's what we went through the last time this article had a formal move discussion, and the time before that. So if you want to make that case, by all means, feel free. But the burden is on you to show independently verifiable of your assertions. Statements like, "well, all the motorcyclists I personally know think..." are of absolutely no relevance. I could claim all the motorcyclists I know think the opposite and then what? We have a shouting match? What you and I personally experience and people you and I personally know aren't what matters. Cite some facts and that is how you will win consensus. If consensus based on independent reliable sources favors a move, I can get with that.
Until then, I'm opposed. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Sure, and thank you for taking the time for the feedback there, Dennis Bratland that all makes sense. Here's some references to support the above as per your request - would be great if you now look at these and reconsider:
This poll on Facebook, when asked “Are scooters motorcyles?” 34 respondents answered no, that they are a different, separate vehicle. 8 said yes. [3]
“I’ve heard it said time and time again: "Scooters are not motorcycles." Or, in the words of Mr. Zito Burrito, “No! They wouldn't be called scooters if they were motorcycles.” [4]
References
Starting a cock-wagging contest of who is more of an expert is a time-wasting distraction that will not get you anywhere. What you can do with your years of experience and knowlege is use that expertise to locate reliable sources that meet the criteria at WP:COMMONNAME. If you have those facts to cite, perhaps it is convincing, regardless of who you may or may not be. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 22:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
If you pair scooter with other words, you can see how often it's used in the specific context we mean, and how uncommon motorscooter is. Take "Vespa scooter" for example: [24]. Or "50cc scooter" [25]. 650 news results [26]. "50cc motorscooter" 6 news results [27]. 17,000 overall google results: [28]. "50cc vespa" has 70k g hits [29]. "Vespa scooter" has 7 million [30]. "Vespa motorscooter" has 87,000 [31].
These are not definitive scientific results, but then again, it's not even close. Scooter, meaning the motorcycle, is vastly, overwhelmingly, more common than motorscooter.
Add to that the fact that across Europe and North America, you get the same license for a motorcycle as a scooter. Same insurance. Same parking regulations. The only exception is "mopeds", which are almost always defined by engine size or horsepower, and wheel size, with no regard for a scooter's defining characteristics of a step-through frame with overall enclosing bodywork. Scooters are motorcycles, and scooter is the common name. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 23:56, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
The title scooter (motorscooter) is a non-starter. Read WP:DAB. We don't say car (automobile) or plane (airplane) or Coke (Coca-cola). You put the common name first, and in parentheses goes the context, not a synonym. Hence Mercury (element), Mercury (planet) and Mercury (mythology). Not Mercury (Hermes) or Mercury (quicksilver). Not Jesus (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is a redirect to Jesus. Motorscooter is already a redirect to Scooter (motorcycle), so that's all good. You have to go back and come up with a title that meets the basic rules of WP:Article titles, WP:QUALIFIER, and WP:DAB.
But really I think you have to realize that Wikipedia does not right great wrongs. It sucks that scooter is ambiguous and English doesn't have a good word to use, but that's how it is. Some guys want to argue with their mates that "motorscooter" is the "formal name" but that's just an opinion, not a fact. Sources and evidence don't say it's the formal name. Put another way -- shameless self-promotion -- Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not here to settle bar bets. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:19, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Nobody needs to be a veteran scooter rider to read and understand WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. Personally I think my English degree is more relevant expertise than my hours riding scooters or tearing down scooter engines.
It might help to understand that even if you got a couple editors to go along with a name change that violates guidelines, it won't last. Sooner or later, any of the thousands of other Wikipedia editors who know and understand the guidelines will notice, and they will change it back, for the reasons explained at WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. A cock measuring contest over who has more experience with scooters isn't going to get you anywhere: even if you could get me to bow to your claims of superior expertise, none of those other editors care. Nobody wants to spend their limited volunteer time checking your resume to verify your credentials, even if we had any idea how we would go about that. This is literally the entire point of Wikipedia: it doesn't matter who you are. Read History of Wikipedia. Read Nupedia. There have always been encyclopedias written by an elect group of experts. Wikipedia is not that.
You either have verifiable evidence. or you don't. If you're a veteran scooter guy with who has all the experience, then surely all that knowledge can be put to use locating verifiable sources you can show us. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 16:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Motorscooter used in title:
•Vespa and Lambretta Motor Scooters by Stuart Owen, Bloomsbury Publishing 2019 ISBN 978-1784423179
•The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motor Scooters by Bev Brinson and Bryce Ludwig, Alpha Books 2007 ISBN 978-1592576395
• Motor Scooters by Michael Webster, Bloomsbury USA 2007 ISBN 978-0747806684
•How to Restore and Maintain Your Vespa Motorscooter by Bob Darnell and Bob Golfen, Motorbooks 1999 ISBN 978-0760306239
•The Complete Guide to Cushman Motor Scooters by Bill Somerville, Cushman Publications 1988 ISBN 978-9993165927
•Repair Instructions for Puch Motor Scooters SR/SRA 125/150 by Steyr-Daimler-Puch Aktiengesellschaft 1962 ISBN pre-ISBN
•Puch Motor Scooters RL125, RLA125, Completed for Models SR/SRA 125/150 Repair Instructions by Steyr-Daimler-Puch Aktiengesellschaft 1959 ISBN pre-ISBN
Motorscooter used in text:
•Eureka by Jim Lehrer, Random House 2009 ISBN 978-0812975529: "‘Motorscooter,’ Otis said, ‘I bought a Cushman scooter, not a motorcycle.’"
•The Scooter Bible from Cushman to Vespa, the Ultimate History and Buyer's Guide by Eric Dregni, Michael Dregni, Whitehorse Press 2005 ISBN 978-1884313523: "in 1902 the first motorscooter was created"
•Scooters by Pixel Pete, Eric Dregni, and Peter Martin, MotorBooks International 2005 ISBN 978-1610591751: "The Auto-Glide was an afterthought to Cushman. 'The idea of making a motorscooter was to build and sell more engines,' according to Robert Ammon."
•Scooter mania! by Eric Dregni, MBI Pub. 1998 ISBN 978-0760304464: "A history of the motorscooter from its beginnings in the early 1900s, through its popularity in the 1950s and 1960s, to its status today."
•James Bond: The Spy Who Loved Me by Ian Fleming, Viking 1962 ISBN 978-0670910472: "The prices of secondhand cars in America were too high, as were the running costs, and I suddenly fell in love with the idea of a motorscooter."
•Absolute Beginners by Colin MacInnes, Allison & Busby 1959 ISBN 978-0749011406: "And then we meet like travelers, and I tell him of the wonders of my section of the capital, real and fabled, and he tells me of his sports activities and his saving for a motorscooter, and of which side of the books a debit item goes in at the municipal, or a credit does."
•The Short Reign of Pippin IV by John Steinbeck, Penguin 1957 ISBN 978-1440628627: "It did not materialize, by in his explorations around Paris and its outskirts, Pippin putts around on a motorscooter."
I could go on and on, but I don't have time to add another hundred sources. So let's agree with Jim Lehrer's Otis, stop this decade-long pendant-off, change the name of this page to motorscooter, make Scooter (motorcycle) the redirect, and be done with it. scooteristi ( talk) 18:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
So all I have to do is cite more than 14 books and movies that say scooter instead of motorscooter and you'll be done here, is that right? How about double that, say 30? First off, three of your quotes use scooter, not motorscooter right there in the title: Scooters by Pixel Pete, Scooter mania!, and The Scooter Bible by Eric Dregni. The very authorities you cite don't feel the need to use motorscooter. Yet you count that as evidence because you can find one mention of the term inside the book? It appears the game you're playing is "heads I win, tails you lose". I think not. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:13, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
All we can do here is decide what to do within the framework of Wikipedia's article naming guidelines. If you think the guidelines themselves have to change, the place to talk about that is at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab). If you can briefly explain what is wrong and how you could make it better, you could get somewhere.
As far as I'm concerned, the word "scooter" in English is overloaded with meanings and that's just how the language is. Every time anyone sees a new kind of vehicle and they don't know what to call it, they default to "scooter". Honestly the first Vespa was a motorcycle and if we'd called it a motorcycle, everything would be fine. It doesn't matter that there is a distinguishable scooter culture; you could say sport bikes and Harley cruisers have different cultures too but not because the machines are fundamentally different. It's because people arbitrarily reify and fetishize.
Anyway, go to Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) and kick the idea around. Who knows? Or propose a new primary topic. Maybe the Scooter (band) fans won't make a fuss. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 17:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The redirect
Motorscooterxxx has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 21 § Motorscooterxxx until a consensus is reached.
Dsuke1998AEOS (
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17:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
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www.wordiq.com is not a reliable source. It is an online encyclopaedia which is based on Wikipedia. WP:RS is clear that Wikipedia and its mirrors should not be used as sources in Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia:Common knowledge is also worth reading if you are trying to make a point e.g. "the fact that scooters are not popular in the USA is something we all know anyway". Bottom line - all facts on Wikipedia should be properly sourced from reliable (and ideally secondary) sources. -- Biker Biker ( talk) 17:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
To only cite the surge in scooter (and motorcycle and moped) sales in 2007, when gas prices were high and the recession hadn't begun, is misleading and also not a very interesting story. In fact, sales have been very sensitive to gas prices and the boom in 2007 was followed by steep declines, with scooters suffering the most because they had gained the most during the high gas prices. A number of new scooter brands, and new electric scooters and motorcycles, that poped up when it looked like the public cared about fuel prices went belly up when the things turned around. In the long history of two wheelers, it has proven easier to start a bike company than a car company, but been tough for most companies to survive in the long run. Here's some links on the declines in after 2007:
-- Dbratland ( talk) 18:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Unknown parameter |newspaoer=
ignored (
help)I think the section on 3-wheeled scooters needs to be removed, in my view a scooter is defined as having only 2-wheels (else it's a trike). Another thing which is intresting to mention are stirling engine scooters, some have probably already been built and Kamen (supposedly) is also working on one, see http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/ariel-schwartz/sustainability/dean-kamens-newest-invention-stirling-engine-equipped-hybrid-moto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.233.228 ( talk) 13:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
See WP:WPACT and WP:MC-MOS. There is little consensus for pop culture sections in Wikipedia but incorporating pop culture references, with citations, into appropriate sections of the article is welcome. The main criteria is citing a source showing the media references had some effect on scooter sales, popularity, design, etc. For example, it's not hard to find citations to show that Roman Holiday affected the popularity of scooters in the US. Mention of Mod (subculture) and Quadrophenia in the history section makes sense. But you need to find that citation first before you add it to the article. Please do not add a list of cruft at the end of the article. Lists of pop culture references attract material that is based more on some editor's opinion rather than a cited reliable source showing that the pop culture instance had any affect on scooters. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 17:01, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
And another thing: the deleted material is far too obsessed with the UK. Wikipedia needs to be globally balanced -- see Wikipedia:Systemic bias. One of the ways to avoid bias is to stick closely to what sources give you, and not just whatever you've found. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This article is about motorscooters and as such it should be titled "motorscooter" and not the stupidly awkward "Scooter (motorcycle)". The redirect should be the main page and this page should become the redirect. scooteristi ( talk) 06:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The first sentence in the "Description" section just doesn't work. It's an attempt to take dictionary definitions of the word "scooter" and use them to synthesize a description of the bikes. That's not the same thing. "A motorcycle similar to a kick scooter with a seat" might be true at the conceptual level, but it's not a helpful description of most scooters. It's like reading a description of an elephant compiled by the blind men in the parable: you can see where it came from, but it doesn't match the object in question. (The fact that several of the definitions being used are decades old doesn't help in describing current vehicles.) We need to stop trying in vain to define "scooter" here; this is not a dictionary. Instead I would suggest the following opening statement in that section:
The rest of the section - which actually describes the common features of scooters, rather than trying to impose an abstract definition on them - is more successful. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 18:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
If citations are missing, fix them. If there are fact that need to be added, add them. But if it more or less tells the reader what a scooter is, it's fine, so leave it alone, and let's work on something more important. We're never going to get everyone to agree on the perfect wording, and drawing editors into these arguments wastes valuable volunteer resources. See also WP:LAME.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
To be honest I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about. The article seems to make a pretty good distinction between a scooter and a motorcycle which I believe the average reader would be interested in knowing about. Otherwise, why would the scooter article need to exist at all? -- Biker Biker ( talk) 10:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Unless the other citations directly say they are similar, then it's unsourced. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 15:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the original suggestion was to delete some of the definition, on the grounds that it is poorly sourced and irrelevant. Since it is essentially a challenge of the given sources, there isn't a burden on JasonAQuest to cite other sources. Especially since it's unlikely that a source can be found to directly contradict the one old dictionary that says a motor scooter is like a kick scooter.
More broadly, this isn't Simple English Wikipedia, and this isn't the Voyager Golden Record. Readers can be presumed to be moderately educated Earthlings who have probably seen a motor scooter in their lives. Most humans, such as those in China, India, Africa and elsewhere, in fact have probably seen many times more scooters than cars or trucks. Therefore only a brief and not overly-technical definition of scooter is necessary here.
The more salient point that many readers might not know is that there are many contradictory definitions of scooter (and moped and motorcycle) depending on legal jurisdiction. We should basically tell readers: "Wikipedia can't settle your argument with your mates over the definition of a true scooter. Check with your local Department of Motor Vehicles instead, or look it up in a dictionary, which Wikipedia is not."
We should also peruse Wikipedia:Citation overkill. Many of the citations currently in the article were put there to resolve disputes between editors, not to serve the needs of the reader. The excessive citations belong on the talk page as a means to reach consensus. One, two or, at most, three footnotes per fact ought to be enough for the reader, once consensus is reached. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
This topic ABSOLUTELY needs a section on Safety Statistics, concerns etc. The wiki for 'mopeds' has one, why not scooters? There should also be a link between motorcycles, scooters and mopeds delineating why they differ and how for legal intents and purposes scooters are sub-categorized as motorcycles.
108.27.246.135 ( talk) 12:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)persephone
Motorbikes are seen as harder to ride and have bigger engines, are larger and are manual gear shift so you need motorbike licence that qualifies you to deal with that. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 05:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Re https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scooter_(motorcycle)&curid=23809410&diff=728662943&oldid=728597328 and the queried relevance, "What is this image telling us about scooters or scooters in popular culture?".
I think this stands up. Looking around in urban Europe, especially the warmer south, the ability to ride a scooter in street clothes without donning bike leathers is an important aspect of their use. These mitts are very common on scooters, rare on bikes outside the depths of Winter (and usually with gloves on too). Handlebar mitts on scooters are often an alternative to gloves altogether. Andy Dingley ( talk) 08:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Obviously they are useful on any kind of two wheeler handlebar, and no doubt scooterists appreciate them as much as motorcyclists. There are now many imitations of Vetter's original, including models made for bicycling. If you really wanted to, you could write a whole article on the subject, though I think it would be a permastub and it would be best to add a paragraph or two to the articles motorcycle accessories and/or Craig Vetter.
My objection on this article is that I don't think bar mitts, by any brand name, or improvised, are specifically associated with scooters. If you have a source that says that the mitts went from being a 1970s touring accessory in the US to an accessory particularly used on scooters in Europe, that would be interesting and I'd want to see it on this article. Otherwise, perhaps it should be moved to a section that describes how riders often get creative and enterprising with homemade accessories like File:Bali-style-scooter.xcf or File:Postal Supercub MD.jpg or File:Honda Super Cub fully loaded.jpg. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:22, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
1st category
2nd category
cargo scooter?? Lit Motors Kubo. 89.201.184.86 ( talk) 18:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The title of this page seems to follow the logic that "Scooter" is the common accepted name, and they use (Motorcycle) to differentiate scooter from push scooters. However, commonly Scooters aren't seen as Motorcycles. Motorcylcists certainly don't see scooters as motorcycles, and scooterists see scooters as a separate thing. Normally, in terms of classifications, they are always listed separately. Certainly in sales pages, like E bay or Gum tree, the two get separate listings, and are referred to as separate things. Though both being two wheeled transport, apart from that have a host of differences, and are very different. Following on from the arguments presented in the original discussion above, (concerning motor scooter as two words) and considering common names, I'd like to suggest: * Scooter (Motor Scooter) *. This uses the common name, and uses the more formal term "motor scooter" to indicate it isn't a push scooter. If anyone has any feedback or objections, please speak up... but I think this is a good compromise to the previous discussion Deathlibrarian ( talk) 12:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
What this all comes down to is the WP:COMMONNAME guideline. What you need to do here is present evidence that the mainstream practice is to say Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton) or to say aspirin (not: acetylsalicylic acid). This not an easy task, but it's what we went through the last time this article had a formal move discussion, and the time before that. So if you want to make that case, by all means, feel free. But the burden is on you to show independently verifiable of your assertions. Statements like, "well, all the motorcyclists I personally know think..." are of absolutely no relevance. I could claim all the motorcyclists I know think the opposite and then what? We have a shouting match? What you and I personally experience and people you and I personally know aren't what matters. Cite some facts and that is how you will win consensus. If consensus based on independent reliable sources favors a move, I can get with that.
Until then, I'm opposed. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Sure, and thank you for taking the time for the feedback there, Dennis Bratland that all makes sense. Here's some references to support the above as per your request - would be great if you now look at these and reconsider:
This poll on Facebook, when asked “Are scooters motorcyles?” 34 respondents answered no, that they are a different, separate vehicle. 8 said yes. [3]
“I’ve heard it said time and time again: "Scooters are not motorcycles." Or, in the words of Mr. Zito Burrito, “No! They wouldn't be called scooters if they were motorcycles.” [4]
References
Starting a cock-wagging contest of who is more of an expert is a time-wasting distraction that will not get you anywhere. What you can do with your years of experience and knowlege is use that expertise to locate reliable sources that meet the criteria at WP:COMMONNAME. If you have those facts to cite, perhaps it is convincing, regardless of who you may or may not be. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 22:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
If you pair scooter with other words, you can see how often it's used in the specific context we mean, and how uncommon motorscooter is. Take "Vespa scooter" for example: [24]. Or "50cc scooter" [25]. 650 news results [26]. "50cc motorscooter" 6 news results [27]. 17,000 overall google results: [28]. "50cc vespa" has 70k g hits [29]. "Vespa scooter" has 7 million [30]. "Vespa motorscooter" has 87,000 [31].
These are not definitive scientific results, but then again, it's not even close. Scooter, meaning the motorcycle, is vastly, overwhelmingly, more common than motorscooter.
Add to that the fact that across Europe and North America, you get the same license for a motorcycle as a scooter. Same insurance. Same parking regulations. The only exception is "mopeds", which are almost always defined by engine size or horsepower, and wheel size, with no regard for a scooter's defining characteristics of a step-through frame with overall enclosing bodywork. Scooters are motorcycles, and scooter is the common name. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 23:56, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
The title scooter (motorscooter) is a non-starter. Read WP:DAB. We don't say car (automobile) or plane (airplane) or Coke (Coca-cola). You put the common name first, and in parentheses goes the context, not a synonym. Hence Mercury (element), Mercury (planet) and Mercury (mythology). Not Mercury (Hermes) or Mercury (quicksilver). Not Jesus (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is a redirect to Jesus. Motorscooter is already a redirect to Scooter (motorcycle), so that's all good. You have to go back and come up with a title that meets the basic rules of WP:Article titles, WP:QUALIFIER, and WP:DAB.
But really I think you have to realize that Wikipedia does not right great wrongs. It sucks that scooter is ambiguous and English doesn't have a good word to use, but that's how it is. Some guys want to argue with their mates that "motorscooter" is the "formal name" but that's just an opinion, not a fact. Sources and evidence don't say it's the formal name. Put another way -- shameless self-promotion -- Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not here to settle bar bets. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:19, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Nobody needs to be a veteran scooter rider to read and understand WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. Personally I think my English degree is more relevant expertise than my hours riding scooters or tearing down scooter engines.
It might help to understand that even if you got a couple editors to go along with a name change that violates guidelines, it won't last. Sooner or later, any of the thousands of other Wikipedia editors who know and understand the guidelines will notice, and they will change it back, for the reasons explained at WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. A cock measuring contest over who has more experience with scooters isn't going to get you anywhere: even if you could get me to bow to your claims of superior expertise, none of those other editors care. Nobody wants to spend their limited volunteer time checking your resume to verify your credentials, even if we had any idea how we would go about that. This is literally the entire point of Wikipedia: it doesn't matter who you are. Read History of Wikipedia. Read Nupedia. There have always been encyclopedias written by an elect group of experts. Wikipedia is not that.
You either have verifiable evidence. or you don't. If you're a veteran scooter guy with who has all the experience, then surely all that knowledge can be put to use locating verifiable sources you can show us. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 16:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Motorscooter used in title:
•Vespa and Lambretta Motor Scooters by Stuart Owen, Bloomsbury Publishing 2019 ISBN 978-1784423179
•The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motor Scooters by Bev Brinson and Bryce Ludwig, Alpha Books 2007 ISBN 978-1592576395
• Motor Scooters by Michael Webster, Bloomsbury USA 2007 ISBN 978-0747806684
•How to Restore and Maintain Your Vespa Motorscooter by Bob Darnell and Bob Golfen, Motorbooks 1999 ISBN 978-0760306239
•The Complete Guide to Cushman Motor Scooters by Bill Somerville, Cushman Publications 1988 ISBN 978-9993165927
•Repair Instructions for Puch Motor Scooters SR/SRA 125/150 by Steyr-Daimler-Puch Aktiengesellschaft 1962 ISBN pre-ISBN
•Puch Motor Scooters RL125, RLA125, Completed for Models SR/SRA 125/150 Repair Instructions by Steyr-Daimler-Puch Aktiengesellschaft 1959 ISBN pre-ISBN
Motorscooter used in text:
•Eureka by Jim Lehrer, Random House 2009 ISBN 978-0812975529: "‘Motorscooter,’ Otis said, ‘I bought a Cushman scooter, not a motorcycle.’"
•The Scooter Bible from Cushman to Vespa, the Ultimate History and Buyer's Guide by Eric Dregni, Michael Dregni, Whitehorse Press 2005 ISBN 978-1884313523: "in 1902 the first motorscooter was created"
•Scooters by Pixel Pete, Eric Dregni, and Peter Martin, MotorBooks International 2005 ISBN 978-1610591751: "The Auto-Glide was an afterthought to Cushman. 'The idea of making a motorscooter was to build and sell more engines,' according to Robert Ammon."
•Scooter mania! by Eric Dregni, MBI Pub. 1998 ISBN 978-0760304464: "A history of the motorscooter from its beginnings in the early 1900s, through its popularity in the 1950s and 1960s, to its status today."
•James Bond: The Spy Who Loved Me by Ian Fleming, Viking 1962 ISBN 978-0670910472: "The prices of secondhand cars in America were too high, as were the running costs, and I suddenly fell in love with the idea of a motorscooter."
•Absolute Beginners by Colin MacInnes, Allison & Busby 1959 ISBN 978-0749011406: "And then we meet like travelers, and I tell him of the wonders of my section of the capital, real and fabled, and he tells me of his sports activities and his saving for a motorscooter, and of which side of the books a debit item goes in at the municipal, or a credit does."
•The Short Reign of Pippin IV by John Steinbeck, Penguin 1957 ISBN 978-1440628627: "It did not materialize, by in his explorations around Paris and its outskirts, Pippin putts around on a motorscooter."
I could go on and on, but I don't have time to add another hundred sources. So let's agree with Jim Lehrer's Otis, stop this decade-long pendant-off, change the name of this page to motorscooter, make Scooter (motorcycle) the redirect, and be done with it. scooteristi ( talk) 18:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
So all I have to do is cite more than 14 books and movies that say scooter instead of motorscooter and you'll be done here, is that right? How about double that, say 30? First off, three of your quotes use scooter, not motorscooter right there in the title: Scooters by Pixel Pete, Scooter mania!, and The Scooter Bible by Eric Dregni. The very authorities you cite don't feel the need to use motorscooter. Yet you count that as evidence because you can find one mention of the term inside the book? It appears the game you're playing is "heads I win, tails you lose". I think not. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:13, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
All we can do here is decide what to do within the framework of Wikipedia's article naming guidelines. If you think the guidelines themselves have to change, the place to talk about that is at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab). If you can briefly explain what is wrong and how you could make it better, you could get somewhere.
As far as I'm concerned, the word "scooter" in English is overloaded with meanings and that's just how the language is. Every time anyone sees a new kind of vehicle and they don't know what to call it, they default to "scooter". Honestly the first Vespa was a motorcycle and if we'd called it a motorcycle, everything would be fine. It doesn't matter that there is a distinguishable scooter culture; you could say sport bikes and Harley cruisers have different cultures too but not because the machines are fundamentally different. It's because people arbitrarily reify and fetishize.
Anyway, go to Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) and kick the idea around. Who knows? Or propose a new primary topic. Maybe the Scooter (band) fans won't make a fuss. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 17:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The redirect
Motorscooterxxx has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 21 § Motorscooterxxx until a consensus is reached.
Dsuke1998AEOS (
talk)
17:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)