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While the link that was so brashly edited into the page covers some very suspicious questions about scientology and tells an important message it obviously does not belong in wikipedia. Although... I won't be the one to remove it. Chris8535 22:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
This post is just for the record in case anyone here has had issues with the named editor or others editing similarly on this article. The following editors are as of June 5 2006, blocked indefinitely under any name:
It is not confirmed whether other editors are also in the same sockpuppet/meatpuppet group. They may be. It may also help to be alert in general, to new editors and repeat behavior. Reversion of heavy duty POV editing and forged cites added over many months (back to May 2005) has been needed in cleaning up that article.
Please see Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming for more, including summary of reasons and behaviors related to this.
Formal ban and block documentation at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans.
FT2 ( Talk) 14:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is Hubbard primarily shown as a "pulp fiction" writer? He is best known for his science fiction. That's like saying that Steven King is primarily a pulp fiction writer. It would be totally untrue. (And, yes I can cite that Steven King has written pulp fiction. Many writers have at some point.) The intro should list him as a science fiction writer since that was his most famous form of writing. (Possibly to include scientology, but hey, that's just my opinion...) - Tεx τ urε 17:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The citation to "Atack, Jon (1990). A Piece of Blue Sky. New York, NY: Carol Publishing Group. ISBN 081840499X." does not clarify why he is being reported as a pulp fiction author. From his bibliography he could be considered a fantasy/science fiction writer if you don't think science fiction is accurate enough. - Tεx τ urε 17:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
This is like calling Michael Jordan a baseball player or George Washington a bricklayer but I will accept that opposition to (potentially embarrassing) facts in this article may be politically motivated. The fact that "we actually had people trying to argue that he must not be described as such because it wasn't sourced" makes it clear that there is a war going on. Oh, and my apologies for my technical editing error. I will try to avoid that mistake in the future. - Tεx τ urε 14:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The article begins: Scientology is a system of beliefs and practices (It is a philosophy). created by American pulp fiction author L. Ron Hubbard (Hubbard did many things. "author" would be much better encyclopedic writing). created .... in 1952 (Hubbard introduced the idea in 1952. He created the philosophy until his death in 1986). as a self-help philosophy (While there is some self-help elements to it, it generally requires such a level of expertise that it is not considered self-help). By 1960 Hubbard had redefined it as a "religion by its basic tenets" (he defined it as entering the realm of religion the first time he mentioned it in 1952). The Church of Scientology, by far the largest organization promoting the belief system of Scientology, is sometimes referred to simply as "Scientology". (It is not a belief system) (By introducing that the Church is referred to as "Scientology" early in the article, it defeats the use of separate articles for Church of Scientology).
The controversial organization has attracted much criticism and distrust throughout the world because of its closed nature and strong-arm tactics in handling critics. If the article does state, "Controversial organization" then it should be attributed. Millions of Scientologists would disagree with "attracted much distrust". The first 3 paragraphs could be direct cut and paste out of alt.religion.scientology or from xenu.net, they are so badly written. They mis-present known, quoteable information and put the worst spin on information which is widely known. Terryeo 07:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In any event, there is plenty of opportunity to present the Church's statement. And other statements, estimations, surveys, etc. No need to deny anyone's considerations, is there? Terryeo 00:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys. I added Beyerstein's view on Scientology. I tried to make it fair by stating the other subjects he exposes. Beyerstein, B. L. (1990) Brainscams: Neuromythologies of the New Age. Intl. J. of Mental Health. Special issue on quackery 19(3):27-36. HongKongMasterofSci 07:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I added more information under the 'Scientology versus the Internet' section regarding YTMND. This information is verifiable and can be currently found on the main page where Max addresses the users. I would like someone to 'Wikify' my information. PunkCabana 15:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)PunkCabana
This is big. Scientology letters have sent a cease and cecease to ytmnd..
What is wicked is they claim that a wikipedia article is trademark infrigement. See the section that includes:
Mention of YTMND should probably be removed from this article, unless there's cited independent coverage of it. Even then, such specifics, probably go in Scientology versus the Internet, not here. -- Rob 08:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The article presents what it calls "Footnotes". But before it does, it presents what it calls "References". The citations should preceed the "References", I believe because they are a part of the article. But the 5 "References" are not part of the article and should, therefore, be placed after what are called "Footnotes". The title, "References" is slightly misleading too because the article is fairly well documented, with many citations. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call that section which is now labled "References" as "Additional References" or perhaps, "Additional Information" and place it last in the article? And as a matter of balance, perhaps it should include a Scientology publication too. Such as Introduction to Scientology Ethics, Hubbard, Bridge Publications Inc. 1968 ISBN 1573181323 Terryeo 00:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The title of the article is Scientology. The first paragraph presents information which a church would put forth. The second paragraph talks about the Church of Scientology. Later in the article is "In June 2006, Max Goldberg, owner of the website YTMND.com, was sent a cease and desist regarding the alleged infringment of trademarks and copyrighted Scientology material used in some sites. In response, Max put up a Scientology section on the front page and a slightly satirical disclaimer." Obviously that cease and desist was an action taken by the Church of Scientology because a subject (such as Biology or Physics or Buddhism can not send a cease and desist. The Max Goldberg information should go either in the Church of Scientology article or perhaps Scientology versus the Internet, as someone has suggested. Terryeo 00:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, you treat scientology as a legitimate religion, why? It's pretty much common knowledge that the whole thing is a moneymaking scam, it's just as out there as the church of the flying spaghetti monster. What I'm asking, and this is an honest question, not vandalism, why do you even entertain the possibility that Scientology is true?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.117.6 ( talk • contribs)
This talk page isn't the place for these sorts of discussions. Ashmoo 01:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Than what is? This whole religion is crap made up by a sci fi writer, that relates to the article. Basically, your article entertains the possibility that a moneymaking scam is a legitimate religion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.117.6 ( talk • contribs)
any moron can figure that this is a scam (of course) but this is highly inappropriate for a wikipedia talk page. Joeyramoney 06:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum but I can't find where so... where the !@#% is the Scientology symbol? If we capitulated to a threat made by them then a lot of the faith I had in this encyclopedia has been lost. Nrbelex ( talk) 21:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
It points to a webpage which is an HTML of (apparently) a court affidavit. There has been a fair discussion about that http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources&curid=1553589&diff=59057063&oldid=59054683#Affidavits here. It would improve the quality of Wikipedia if the affidavit were in PDF, or if it were cited to a previvously published book or other source. Appearing as it does on a personal website, with mispellings within it and without a date of creation and without a notary signature block and without even the person's name or initials who retyped it into an HTML presentable format (are the mispellings duplicated or created by the typist ?), it has less substance, it is of less repute than the original document. Terryeo 04:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Heh, Which one of the admins is into Scientology?
I'll probably get banned by them just for saying this.
-- Ringdo 03:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Footnote 11 refers to the US Census Bureau, but though they have republished the data on their website the link is to the original webpage at City Uni NY. Looks like an 'appeal to authority' to me!
Footnote 12 leads to Adherents.com, the best known database on the subject. The Scientology notes there are out of date, still using the 1990 City Uni data instead of the 2001 update and quoting data from me (ha!) that I've since revised. The webmaster hasn't responded to requests for updating. Unfortunately this is the most accessed website on religious demographics, so I'm reluctant to just delete the link.
Footnote 13 leads to Kristi Wachter's Statistics website, which while excellent is wrongly noted as having membership/adherent data.
I'd add a link to my own webpage www.daisy.freeserve.co.uk/stolgy_4.htm Millions of members? but that would be bad Wiki practise...
-- Hartley Patterson 12:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll accept Steve Dufour's removal of 'adherent'; this term is commonly used by religious demographers to mean what the text now says, but general readers may well not know this. -- Hartley Patterson 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
While the link that was so brashly edited into the page covers some very suspicious questions about scientology and tells an important message it obviously does not belong in wikipedia. Although... I won't be the one to remove it. Chris8535 22:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
This post is just for the record in case anyone here has had issues with the named editor or others editing similarly on this article. The following editors are as of June 5 2006, blocked indefinitely under any name:
It is not confirmed whether other editors are also in the same sockpuppet/meatpuppet group. They may be. It may also help to be alert in general, to new editors and repeat behavior. Reversion of heavy duty POV editing and forged cites added over many months (back to May 2005) has been needed in cleaning up that article.
Please see Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming for more, including summary of reasons and behaviors related to this.
Formal ban and block documentation at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans.
FT2 ( Talk) 14:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is Hubbard primarily shown as a "pulp fiction" writer? He is best known for his science fiction. That's like saying that Steven King is primarily a pulp fiction writer. It would be totally untrue. (And, yes I can cite that Steven King has written pulp fiction. Many writers have at some point.) The intro should list him as a science fiction writer since that was his most famous form of writing. (Possibly to include scientology, but hey, that's just my opinion...) - Tεx τ urε 17:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The citation to "Atack, Jon (1990). A Piece of Blue Sky. New York, NY: Carol Publishing Group. ISBN 081840499X." does not clarify why he is being reported as a pulp fiction author. From his bibliography he could be considered a fantasy/science fiction writer if you don't think science fiction is accurate enough. - Tεx τ urε 17:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
This is like calling Michael Jordan a baseball player or George Washington a bricklayer but I will accept that opposition to (potentially embarrassing) facts in this article may be politically motivated. The fact that "we actually had people trying to argue that he must not be described as such because it wasn't sourced" makes it clear that there is a war going on. Oh, and my apologies for my technical editing error. I will try to avoid that mistake in the future. - Tεx τ urε 14:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The article begins: Scientology is a system of beliefs and practices (It is a philosophy). created by American pulp fiction author L. Ron Hubbard (Hubbard did many things. "author" would be much better encyclopedic writing). created .... in 1952 (Hubbard introduced the idea in 1952. He created the philosophy until his death in 1986). as a self-help philosophy (While there is some self-help elements to it, it generally requires such a level of expertise that it is not considered self-help). By 1960 Hubbard had redefined it as a "religion by its basic tenets" (he defined it as entering the realm of religion the first time he mentioned it in 1952). The Church of Scientology, by far the largest organization promoting the belief system of Scientology, is sometimes referred to simply as "Scientology". (It is not a belief system) (By introducing that the Church is referred to as "Scientology" early in the article, it defeats the use of separate articles for Church of Scientology).
The controversial organization has attracted much criticism and distrust throughout the world because of its closed nature and strong-arm tactics in handling critics. If the article does state, "Controversial organization" then it should be attributed. Millions of Scientologists would disagree with "attracted much distrust". The first 3 paragraphs could be direct cut and paste out of alt.religion.scientology or from xenu.net, they are so badly written. They mis-present known, quoteable information and put the worst spin on information which is widely known. Terryeo 07:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In any event, there is plenty of opportunity to present the Church's statement. And other statements, estimations, surveys, etc. No need to deny anyone's considerations, is there? Terryeo 00:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys. I added Beyerstein's view on Scientology. I tried to make it fair by stating the other subjects he exposes. Beyerstein, B. L. (1990) Brainscams: Neuromythologies of the New Age. Intl. J. of Mental Health. Special issue on quackery 19(3):27-36. HongKongMasterofSci 07:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I added more information under the 'Scientology versus the Internet' section regarding YTMND. This information is verifiable and can be currently found on the main page where Max addresses the users. I would like someone to 'Wikify' my information. PunkCabana 15:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)PunkCabana
This is big. Scientology letters have sent a cease and cecease to ytmnd..
What is wicked is they claim that a wikipedia article is trademark infrigement. See the section that includes:
Mention of YTMND should probably be removed from this article, unless there's cited independent coverage of it. Even then, such specifics, probably go in Scientology versus the Internet, not here. -- Rob 08:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The article presents what it calls "Footnotes". But before it does, it presents what it calls "References". The citations should preceed the "References", I believe because they are a part of the article. But the 5 "References" are not part of the article and should, therefore, be placed after what are called "Footnotes". The title, "References" is slightly misleading too because the article is fairly well documented, with many citations. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call that section which is now labled "References" as "Additional References" or perhaps, "Additional Information" and place it last in the article? And as a matter of balance, perhaps it should include a Scientology publication too. Such as Introduction to Scientology Ethics, Hubbard, Bridge Publications Inc. 1968 ISBN 1573181323 Terryeo 00:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The title of the article is Scientology. The first paragraph presents information which a church would put forth. The second paragraph talks about the Church of Scientology. Later in the article is "In June 2006, Max Goldberg, owner of the website YTMND.com, was sent a cease and desist regarding the alleged infringment of trademarks and copyrighted Scientology material used in some sites. In response, Max put up a Scientology section on the front page and a slightly satirical disclaimer." Obviously that cease and desist was an action taken by the Church of Scientology because a subject (such as Biology or Physics or Buddhism can not send a cease and desist. The Max Goldberg information should go either in the Church of Scientology article or perhaps Scientology versus the Internet, as someone has suggested. Terryeo 00:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, you treat scientology as a legitimate religion, why? It's pretty much common knowledge that the whole thing is a moneymaking scam, it's just as out there as the church of the flying spaghetti monster. What I'm asking, and this is an honest question, not vandalism, why do you even entertain the possibility that Scientology is true?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.117.6 ( talk • contribs)
This talk page isn't the place for these sorts of discussions. Ashmoo 01:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Than what is? This whole religion is crap made up by a sci fi writer, that relates to the article. Basically, your article entertains the possibility that a moneymaking scam is a legitimate religion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.117.6 ( talk • contribs)
any moron can figure that this is a scam (of course) but this is highly inappropriate for a wikipedia talk page. Joeyramoney 06:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum but I can't find where so... where the !@#% is the Scientology symbol? If we capitulated to a threat made by them then a lot of the faith I had in this encyclopedia has been lost. Nrbelex ( talk) 21:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
It points to a webpage which is an HTML of (apparently) a court affidavit. There has been a fair discussion about that http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources&curid=1553589&diff=59057063&oldid=59054683#Affidavits here. It would improve the quality of Wikipedia if the affidavit were in PDF, or if it were cited to a previvously published book or other source. Appearing as it does on a personal website, with mispellings within it and without a date of creation and without a notary signature block and without even the person's name or initials who retyped it into an HTML presentable format (are the mispellings duplicated or created by the typist ?), it has less substance, it is of less repute than the original document. Terryeo 04:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Heh, Which one of the admins is into Scientology?
I'll probably get banned by them just for saying this.
-- Ringdo 03:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Footnote 11 refers to the US Census Bureau, but though they have republished the data on their website the link is to the original webpage at City Uni NY. Looks like an 'appeal to authority' to me!
Footnote 12 leads to Adherents.com, the best known database on the subject. The Scientology notes there are out of date, still using the 1990 City Uni data instead of the 2001 update and quoting data from me (ha!) that I've since revised. The webmaster hasn't responded to requests for updating. Unfortunately this is the most accessed website on religious demographics, so I'm reluctant to just delete the link.
Footnote 13 leads to Kristi Wachter's Statistics website, which while excellent is wrongly noted as having membership/adherent data.
I'd add a link to my own webpage www.daisy.freeserve.co.uk/stolgy_4.htm Millions of members? but that would be bad Wiki practise...
-- Hartley Patterson 12:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll accept Steve Dufour's removal of 'adherent'; this term is commonly used by religious demographers to mean what the text now says, but general readers may well not know this. -- Hartley Patterson 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)