![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
The word "church", refering to the Church of Scientology, is sometimes written with a capital C and sometimes with a small C in the article. I don't know which one is correct but it looks a little odd to have it both ways.
See the Chicago Manual of Style (7.57). When speaking of the Department of History at the University of Chiacgo one would use capital letters. When speaking of the history department at that university one would use lowercase letters. In certain cases for the purposes of internal publications or press releases it is acceptable to use capitals in both cases. However, as an encyclopedic entry, the proper use would be to capitalize the Church of Scientology and to leave lowercase the church. On the other hand, if the church were to be replaced with Scientology, which in certain cases might lessen confusion between the organization and its buildings, it would of course be capitalized. -- Bantab 00:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Although its fairly minor, I question the need for the following quotes:
"In May 2001, the Russian Orthodox Church criticized Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unificationists and Mormons as being dangerous "totalitarian sects".[37]" Not that bad, but it's just saying that the Russian Orthodox Church criticizes scientology and it makes the other religions listed seem as similar to scientology.
"The Lutheran Church[38] in Germany has at times criticized Scientology's activities and doctrines, along with those of several other religions. According to the U.S. State Department's 2004 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, "The Lutheran Church also characterizes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Christ, Christian Scientists, the New Apostolic Church, and the Johannish Church as 'sects,' but in less negative terms than it does Scientology."" The first sentence is the only necessary part of this paragraph, the rest is just junk. I would change it myself but on a controversial topic like this I'd like to get someone's opinion first.
-- Boccobrock 06:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is obviously a recognized religious, I mean the IRS even calls it a religious, then there should not be any reason to post criticism all over the articles. I don't see the same criticism on other religious articles. And there should not be on any of them. I understand that some people may disagree with the views of one religion or another but it goes not give any one a right to post your opinions or criticism on the articles. Besides I thought only neutral points of view were allowed on this website any ways? I think its time this whole system of articles on this subject gets a fine tooth comb over and boot out all the opinions, critics, and leave the facts. I am sure we all agree that we want this website to display the correct information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Truthisgreater ( talk • contribs) .
There are long and short answers. The short answer is that Scientology isn't a religion even thought its recognized as such under US law. The long answer is that even it were a religion not all religions are equal. Some, like Christianity and Islam have had massive cultural and spiritual impact over large swaths of the globe and had served as the basis of civilizations. Others, like Judaism and Zoroastrianism, despite their small number of adherents, have an ancient and complex history as well as an enormous, even decisive influence on larger and more widespread religion. Scientology qualifies for none of these. It has had no recognizable cultural/civilizational influence upon the world and is barely fifty years old.-- ben-ze'ev 20:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:External links#Occasionally acceptable links states:
I just http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scientology&diff=61152680&oldid=61114751 removed a link to a probably copyright violation. A web site that has an *entire* copy of an article, is going way beyond fair use. Even though we don't host it here, it is the wrong thing to do. Also, its patently absurd to have a convience link, when there's a link to the story at the official source, at washingtonpost.com. Even if an article isn't available for free, a "convience" link is not ok, if you make it convenient to steal something. -- Rob 06:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Added: a prior discussion of the issue of linking to copyvios was hashed out at Talk:Preying from the Pulpit, where (after much bitter debate) the links have remained removed. If there's any reason to think xenu.net is permitted to copy the article, then by all means re-add the link. -- Rob 08:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of this article it talks about how Church spokespeople claim that Hubbards teachings have saved them from addiction, arthritis, depression, learning disabilities, mental illness, cancer and homosexuality. I feel that homosexuality should be taken out of that statement. There us currently no medical proof that homosexuality is a disease or a disorder, so if it isn't a disease or a disorder how can someone be "cured". ~Tony (14:05, June 29, 2006 by 12.2.142.7 ( talk · contribs))
In the section on Scientology and other religions it says:
This seems to be leaving the other shoe ready to drop. Are those many Catholics right? Is it really a form of gnosticism? I'd like to learn more about this myself. Steve Dufour 07:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
www.ereader.com/author/detail/1552 L. Ron Hubbard at eReader.com This "reference" from an e-bookstore is just quoting Bridge/ASI/Galaxy Press PR materials which contain a number of dubious claims. (I don't think anyone has ever been able to track down a statement directly from the rather nebulous "American Book Readers Association" about that poll, and the "publication of over 250 works of fiction" isn't supported by the Hubbard bibliography written by William J. Widder of Bridge Publications.) This is second or third hand at best and there's no indication that ereader does any fact-checking of PR material from publishers.
I can find much better references that Hubbard was a sci-fi writer, but the issue has always been: should he be listed for what he is known for, or for what he published most of (by number, not by volume)? Personally, I'd go with the former, but pulp writer (which includes his SF publications) was the compromise. AndroidCat 16:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
A minor point, but the article claims that belief in past lives is incompatible with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I don't know about the latter, but Judaism does believe in the transmigration of souls. Its a major part of the Kabbalah.-- ben-ze'ev 13:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
i've heard of connections between scientology & freemasonry.. can someone elaborate? o.. and add speculation on 'Trementina base' while you're at it.. i'm really curious what anyone would say those 1.8million steel plates are —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.80.8.2 ( talk • contribs)
The WP:EL style guide has been significantly changed over the last few months, and I think it would be a good idea to discuss it before doing any major scrapes of links from Scientology-related articles to conform to the current version of the style guide. AndroidCat 15:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is getting vandalized very often. Perhaps scientology should be nominated for protection against anon users? -- Bmk 05:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Antaeus Feldspar (Talk | contribs | block) (The cited reference IS the verifiable source. JWSchmidt seems to think we should be substituting our own judgement about whether that source's summation is *true* for whether it is *verifiable*.)
It is the job of Wikipedia editors to provide citations to sources that allow Wikipedia readers to verify statements that are made by Wikipedia. At best the Goodin article allows the reader to see Goodin's opinion. The Goodin article does not allow the Wikipedia reader to verify this statement: "The controversial organization has attracted much criticism and distrust throughout the world because of its closed nature and strong-arm tactics in handling critics." What Goodin said was that, "Critics have charged that the Church of Scientology employs strong-arm tactics to silence those who publicly disagree with its policies." The Goodin article could probably be cited as a source in Scientology controversy where there would be room to provide a full discussion of how the Church of Scientology's "strong-arm" compares to that of other religious groups. The introductory section of the Wikipedia article about Scientology should not be a platform for the critics of Scientology. Scientology is not criticism of Scientology and the main Wikipedia article about Scientology should first explain the beliefs and practices Scientology. The introduction to this article might reasonably state that there are critics of the Church of Scientology and direct Wikipedia readers to the article Church of Scientology.
Most of Wikipedia's current introduction to the topic of Scientology (text above the table of contents in the Scientology article) is given over to a description of the point of view of critics of the Church of Scientology. Rather than present a description of what Scientology is, Wikipedia editors have substituted their own judgment that the point of view of the critics of the Church of Scientology is more important than telling the reader what Scientology is. In my view, this is a violation of Wikipedia policy. " Readers are left to form their own opinions" How can a reader form their own opinion about Scientology when Wikipedia editors are more concerned about giving voice to the position of critics of the Church of Scientology than they are to explaining what Scientology is? In making the editorial decision to turn Wikipedia's introduction to Scientology into a platform for the critics of the Church of Scientology, some Wikipedia editors have taken on the task of covering their editorial actions with the claim that since the supporters of Scientology are a small group, Wikipedia has no obligation to write a neutral encyclopedia article that explains what Scientology is. This editorial choice does not serve the reader who comes to Wikipedia to learn what Scientology is, and that has to be the first priority for Wikipedia. The critics of Scientology who hover over this article should stand back from this article and allow people who know what Scientology is to provide a description of it, a neutral description that is not choked by the personal biases of critics of the Church of Scientology. -- JWSchmidt 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, it's really too bad that you chose an approach to your "main point" that involved accusing other editors of bad faith. I mean, if I were to write "The article currently seems to accept the Scientology POV too uncritically", then people could believe without difficulty that my "main point" is the article content. If, on the other hand, I write "The article currently seems to accept the Scientology POV too uncritically. Wikipedia editors have substituted their own judgment that the point of view of the Church of Scientology is more important than telling the reader where that viewpoint might be challenged. In my view, this is a violation of Wikipedia policy. " Readers are left to form their own opinions" How can a reader form their own opinion about Scientology when Wikipedia editors are more concerned about giving voice to the position of the Church of Scientology than they are to exploring anything outside press releases? In making the editorial decision to turn Wikipedia's introduction to Scientology into a platform for the Church of Scientology, some Wikipedia editors have taken on the task of covering their editorial actions with the claim that since the critics of Scientology are a small group, Wikipedia has no obligation to write a neutral encyclopedia article that explains what Scientology is from any other perspective except that of believers" -- how, exactly, should I expect readers to believe that my "main point" is about the article content, and not about the "Wikipedia editors" whom I am referring to constantly and in whose mouth I am placing quite amazing statements? If I then shake my head sadly at those who respond to my quite serious allegations against others and say "you're not addressing my main point" -- well, perhaps next time I shouldn't make serious and unsupported accusations of policy violation at the same time as I make my "main point", hmmmm?
Now if you think the introduction could use some repair, that's a point which could certainly be discussed. Repair of the introduction is something that does tend to need addressing on a regular basis. In fact, I'm pretty sure that a good way to start that repair is to look at the procedure we employed the last time we made a concerted effort at such a cleanup. I'm very sure that a bad way to start is to say 'the introduction needs some repair. Here's who I blame for the fact that it needs repair. Here's what they are trying to do, instead of following Wikipedia policy. Here's what I will tell you is their claim about how this article should be edited (even though I am not prepared to tell you when and where any of them actually claimed this).' But, please tell us -- if you think allegations of blame are the best way to go about the process of cooperative editing, please explain how you came to that conclusion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
The word "church", refering to the Church of Scientology, is sometimes written with a capital C and sometimes with a small C in the article. I don't know which one is correct but it looks a little odd to have it both ways.
See the Chicago Manual of Style (7.57). When speaking of the Department of History at the University of Chiacgo one would use capital letters. When speaking of the history department at that university one would use lowercase letters. In certain cases for the purposes of internal publications or press releases it is acceptable to use capitals in both cases. However, as an encyclopedic entry, the proper use would be to capitalize the Church of Scientology and to leave lowercase the church. On the other hand, if the church were to be replaced with Scientology, which in certain cases might lessen confusion between the organization and its buildings, it would of course be capitalized. -- Bantab 00:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Although its fairly minor, I question the need for the following quotes:
"In May 2001, the Russian Orthodox Church criticized Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unificationists and Mormons as being dangerous "totalitarian sects".[37]" Not that bad, but it's just saying that the Russian Orthodox Church criticizes scientology and it makes the other religions listed seem as similar to scientology.
"The Lutheran Church[38] in Germany has at times criticized Scientology's activities and doctrines, along with those of several other religions. According to the U.S. State Department's 2004 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, "The Lutheran Church also characterizes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Christ, Christian Scientists, the New Apostolic Church, and the Johannish Church as 'sects,' but in less negative terms than it does Scientology."" The first sentence is the only necessary part of this paragraph, the rest is just junk. I would change it myself but on a controversial topic like this I'd like to get someone's opinion first.
-- Boccobrock 06:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is obviously a recognized religious, I mean the IRS even calls it a religious, then there should not be any reason to post criticism all over the articles. I don't see the same criticism on other religious articles. And there should not be on any of them. I understand that some people may disagree with the views of one religion or another but it goes not give any one a right to post your opinions or criticism on the articles. Besides I thought only neutral points of view were allowed on this website any ways? I think its time this whole system of articles on this subject gets a fine tooth comb over and boot out all the opinions, critics, and leave the facts. I am sure we all agree that we want this website to display the correct information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Truthisgreater ( talk • contribs) .
There are long and short answers. The short answer is that Scientology isn't a religion even thought its recognized as such under US law. The long answer is that even it were a religion not all religions are equal. Some, like Christianity and Islam have had massive cultural and spiritual impact over large swaths of the globe and had served as the basis of civilizations. Others, like Judaism and Zoroastrianism, despite their small number of adherents, have an ancient and complex history as well as an enormous, even decisive influence on larger and more widespread religion. Scientology qualifies for none of these. It has had no recognizable cultural/civilizational influence upon the world and is barely fifty years old.-- ben-ze'ev 20:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:External links#Occasionally acceptable links states:
I just http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scientology&diff=61152680&oldid=61114751 removed a link to a probably copyright violation. A web site that has an *entire* copy of an article, is going way beyond fair use. Even though we don't host it here, it is the wrong thing to do. Also, its patently absurd to have a convience link, when there's a link to the story at the official source, at washingtonpost.com. Even if an article isn't available for free, a "convience" link is not ok, if you make it convenient to steal something. -- Rob 06:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Added: a prior discussion of the issue of linking to copyvios was hashed out at Talk:Preying from the Pulpit, where (after much bitter debate) the links have remained removed. If there's any reason to think xenu.net is permitted to copy the article, then by all means re-add the link. -- Rob 08:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of this article it talks about how Church spokespeople claim that Hubbards teachings have saved them from addiction, arthritis, depression, learning disabilities, mental illness, cancer and homosexuality. I feel that homosexuality should be taken out of that statement. There us currently no medical proof that homosexuality is a disease or a disorder, so if it isn't a disease or a disorder how can someone be "cured". ~Tony (14:05, June 29, 2006 by 12.2.142.7 ( talk · contribs))
In the section on Scientology and other religions it says:
This seems to be leaving the other shoe ready to drop. Are those many Catholics right? Is it really a form of gnosticism? I'd like to learn more about this myself. Steve Dufour 07:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
www.ereader.com/author/detail/1552 L. Ron Hubbard at eReader.com This "reference" from an e-bookstore is just quoting Bridge/ASI/Galaxy Press PR materials which contain a number of dubious claims. (I don't think anyone has ever been able to track down a statement directly from the rather nebulous "American Book Readers Association" about that poll, and the "publication of over 250 works of fiction" isn't supported by the Hubbard bibliography written by William J. Widder of Bridge Publications.) This is second or third hand at best and there's no indication that ereader does any fact-checking of PR material from publishers.
I can find much better references that Hubbard was a sci-fi writer, but the issue has always been: should he be listed for what he is known for, or for what he published most of (by number, not by volume)? Personally, I'd go with the former, but pulp writer (which includes his SF publications) was the compromise. AndroidCat 16:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
A minor point, but the article claims that belief in past lives is incompatible with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I don't know about the latter, but Judaism does believe in the transmigration of souls. Its a major part of the Kabbalah.-- ben-ze'ev 13:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
i've heard of connections between scientology & freemasonry.. can someone elaborate? o.. and add speculation on 'Trementina base' while you're at it.. i'm really curious what anyone would say those 1.8million steel plates are —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.80.8.2 ( talk • contribs)
The WP:EL style guide has been significantly changed over the last few months, and I think it would be a good idea to discuss it before doing any major scrapes of links from Scientology-related articles to conform to the current version of the style guide. AndroidCat 15:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is getting vandalized very often. Perhaps scientology should be nominated for protection against anon users? -- Bmk 05:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Antaeus Feldspar (Talk | contribs | block) (The cited reference IS the verifiable source. JWSchmidt seems to think we should be substituting our own judgement about whether that source's summation is *true* for whether it is *verifiable*.)
It is the job of Wikipedia editors to provide citations to sources that allow Wikipedia readers to verify statements that are made by Wikipedia. At best the Goodin article allows the reader to see Goodin's opinion. The Goodin article does not allow the Wikipedia reader to verify this statement: "The controversial organization has attracted much criticism and distrust throughout the world because of its closed nature and strong-arm tactics in handling critics." What Goodin said was that, "Critics have charged that the Church of Scientology employs strong-arm tactics to silence those who publicly disagree with its policies." The Goodin article could probably be cited as a source in Scientology controversy where there would be room to provide a full discussion of how the Church of Scientology's "strong-arm" compares to that of other religious groups. The introductory section of the Wikipedia article about Scientology should not be a platform for the critics of Scientology. Scientology is not criticism of Scientology and the main Wikipedia article about Scientology should first explain the beliefs and practices Scientology. The introduction to this article might reasonably state that there are critics of the Church of Scientology and direct Wikipedia readers to the article Church of Scientology.
Most of Wikipedia's current introduction to the topic of Scientology (text above the table of contents in the Scientology article) is given over to a description of the point of view of critics of the Church of Scientology. Rather than present a description of what Scientology is, Wikipedia editors have substituted their own judgment that the point of view of the critics of the Church of Scientology is more important than telling the reader what Scientology is. In my view, this is a violation of Wikipedia policy. " Readers are left to form their own opinions" How can a reader form their own opinion about Scientology when Wikipedia editors are more concerned about giving voice to the position of critics of the Church of Scientology than they are to explaining what Scientology is? In making the editorial decision to turn Wikipedia's introduction to Scientology into a platform for the critics of the Church of Scientology, some Wikipedia editors have taken on the task of covering their editorial actions with the claim that since the supporters of Scientology are a small group, Wikipedia has no obligation to write a neutral encyclopedia article that explains what Scientology is. This editorial choice does not serve the reader who comes to Wikipedia to learn what Scientology is, and that has to be the first priority for Wikipedia. The critics of Scientology who hover over this article should stand back from this article and allow people who know what Scientology is to provide a description of it, a neutral description that is not choked by the personal biases of critics of the Church of Scientology. -- JWSchmidt 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, it's really too bad that you chose an approach to your "main point" that involved accusing other editors of bad faith. I mean, if I were to write "The article currently seems to accept the Scientology POV too uncritically", then people could believe without difficulty that my "main point" is the article content. If, on the other hand, I write "The article currently seems to accept the Scientology POV too uncritically. Wikipedia editors have substituted their own judgment that the point of view of the Church of Scientology is more important than telling the reader where that viewpoint might be challenged. In my view, this is a violation of Wikipedia policy. " Readers are left to form their own opinions" How can a reader form their own opinion about Scientology when Wikipedia editors are more concerned about giving voice to the position of the Church of Scientology than they are to exploring anything outside press releases? In making the editorial decision to turn Wikipedia's introduction to Scientology into a platform for the Church of Scientology, some Wikipedia editors have taken on the task of covering their editorial actions with the claim that since the critics of Scientology are a small group, Wikipedia has no obligation to write a neutral encyclopedia article that explains what Scientology is from any other perspective except that of believers" -- how, exactly, should I expect readers to believe that my "main point" is about the article content, and not about the "Wikipedia editors" whom I am referring to constantly and in whose mouth I am placing quite amazing statements? If I then shake my head sadly at those who respond to my quite serious allegations against others and say "you're not addressing my main point" -- well, perhaps next time I shouldn't make serious and unsupported accusations of policy violation at the same time as I make my "main point", hmmmm?
Now if you think the introduction could use some repair, that's a point which could certainly be discussed. Repair of the introduction is something that does tend to need addressing on a regular basis. In fact, I'm pretty sure that a good way to start that repair is to look at the procedure we employed the last time we made a concerted effort at such a cleanup. I'm very sure that a bad way to start is to say 'the introduction needs some repair. Here's who I blame for the fact that it needs repair. Here's what they are trying to do, instead of following Wikipedia policy. Here's what I will tell you is their claim about how this article should be edited (even though I am not prepared to tell you when and where any of them actually claimed this).' But, please tell us -- if you think allegations of blame are the best way to go about the process of cooperative editing, please explain how you came to that conclusion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)