![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Since the Church of Scientology is currently quite controversial, in the eyes of the public, and many people have refered to them as a cult, I have added factual logical reasons of why this is near the top of the article, with references. "Church's scriptures are not broadly released but are only made available to parishioners who have completed prior steps of religious study and counseling." www.scientology.org/copyright/ Sysrpl 12:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I reworded the topic sentence of the cult status reasoning paragraph to describe in brevity the common facts influencing these claims. If you think the wording is off and want to rephrase that opening sentence, please feel free. Sysrpl 09:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I would be happy to go over the paragraph in question again, but before I do so, some questions. 1) Is the word "indoctrinates" something you feel really strongly about including? Because it's something that any edit I made of the material would reword, and I don't want to step on any toes, nor am I all that eager to begin editing content or point of view in earnest. If this is something you feel contributes to the meaning of the paragraph and isnt just a way of saying "Teaches its doctrine" that I see as inflammatory, let me know before I edit it out. 2) Is the intent of "especially as evidenced by the Sea Org." to say that the ranked structure of Scientology is especially evident in, or evidenced By the Sea Org? In other words, is this another example of a rank that is emblematic of the system, or within the Sea Org is rank more closely adhered to and more in evidence? I suppose these aren't mutually exclusive either but I was unsure of what exactly was being said and didn't want to edit the words in one direction or the other. Thanks in advance for the help. AndoSEKleton 14:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
To learn more about Scientology, be sure to visit:
Okay, since some of you don't understand, I will explain this clearly. Please read the following carefully:
The source you seek is me. I am the owner of the website codebot.org. I did not post either the orginal link above to this talk page or the paragraph in the article, someone else did. The article I wrote title "Scientology is not Science" was submitted to the social news website digg.com digg.com/links/Amazingly_Scary_In-depth_Look_at_Scientology_ and quickly became the highest rated story of the week, promting its rapid propagation over the Internet. By Monday afternoon the article had over 100,000 views. That evening I received notice that Verio was temporarily suspending my account in violation of their terms and conditions. I have been advised that I can say nothing more about this matter until the issue is resolved. Sysrpl 19:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, after searching for a while, I couldn't find any independent source for the ytmnd cease and desist event (although I'm inclined to believe it really happened). Anybody else questioning the mention of ytmnd in this article because of lack of independant source? Raymond Hill 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about removing this without prior discussion, however, why has this YTMND entry been allowed to remain here? Are we going to include every site that has been sent a cease and desist letter for trademark violations? Someone is using Wikipedia to push his or her agenda. I note the recent vandalism of links in this article (both positive and negative) by someone who replaced them all with YTMND links (thanks to the editor who reverted them). We should have nothing to do with this site – it is being used to destroy the good work of Wikipedia editors. -- Nuview 11:08, 12 July 2006 (PST)
Remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scientology/Archive_3#External_links_needs_a_severe_cull this discussion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scientology/Archive_3#External_links This one? And http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Scientology&oldid=30851022#External_Links this one? Wikipedia is not an agent to promote web sites. Only the external links that provide meaningful information for further readings should be listed. Raymond Hill 16:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I did some cleaning, but I feel more should be done, especially in the "Other sites" section, as many of the links there looks like they could be used as references instead — they are URL to specific articles rather than sites. Adding URL to specific articles seems a subjective exercice, we all have a favorites which we think is a must-see. Raymond Hill 17:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Since, there is not a consensus that Scientology is a "cult," it's POV to put it definitively in the Category of "Cult" with the Category tag (Category:Cult). To be NPOV, it should be placed in the (Category:Alleged cults). RJII 23:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
It could be argued that by definition, Scientology is most definitely a cult. According to dictionary.com, a cult is "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." I think that the vast majority of people would agree that Scientology would fit in this category. Kyle 10:27, 17 July 2006 (EST)
Could someone create a CoS hierarchical structure and ranking systems article? Perhaps it might include a graph or outline of the all the church's organizations? Also, a list of the preclear states, Sea Org ranks, ect. in the same article would be helpful.
David Miscavige + Church of Scientology International + Sea Org | - Rehabilitation Project Force + Commodore's Messenger Organization | - Religious Technology Center + Association for Better Living and Education | - Applied Scholastics | - Criminon | - ...
Sysrpl 21:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Scientology is an applied religious philosophy.www.whatisscientology.org/html/foreword/index.html 1/2 down the page. The aticle as it stands presents otherwise, is states that "Scientology is a system of practices" and "A system of beliefs". The article so confuses Scientology with the Church of Scientology that no one need write this article at all, this article could simply be deleted and the 40 million words which make up the applied philisophy, Scientology www.whatisscientology.org/index.html 40 millions words, well, the information of those words, as an article of Wikipedia, well, it could just be deleted. The article doesn't introduce Scientology, the article introduces The Church of Scientology in the very first paragraph without a word about those 40 million words. Terryeo 00:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I felt it's consistant with other cases, and the most useful target for readers. I'm mentioning it here, in case anyone disagrees. -- Rob 02:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears the morons at ytmnd.com have decided to spam links to their website across a range of Scientology-related articles. I've semi-protected this one and blocked a couple of vandals/spammers; could people please keep an eye on the other articles in the Scientology series? -- ChrisO 23:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey, normally I would correct this myself, but it appears that anonymous users can't edit this page. Anyway, in the last line of the "Silent Birth" section, the word "Noise" is clearly meant to be a link, but just shows up with square braces around it. Minor point, but like I say, I can't edit it.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Since the Church of Scientology is currently quite controversial, in the eyes of the public, and many people have refered to them as a cult, I have added factual logical reasons of why this is near the top of the article, with references. "Church's scriptures are not broadly released but are only made available to parishioners who have completed prior steps of religious study and counseling." www.scientology.org/copyright/ Sysrpl 12:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I reworded the topic sentence of the cult status reasoning paragraph to describe in brevity the common facts influencing these claims. If you think the wording is off and want to rephrase that opening sentence, please feel free. Sysrpl 09:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I would be happy to go over the paragraph in question again, but before I do so, some questions. 1) Is the word "indoctrinates" something you feel really strongly about including? Because it's something that any edit I made of the material would reword, and I don't want to step on any toes, nor am I all that eager to begin editing content or point of view in earnest. If this is something you feel contributes to the meaning of the paragraph and isnt just a way of saying "Teaches its doctrine" that I see as inflammatory, let me know before I edit it out. 2) Is the intent of "especially as evidenced by the Sea Org." to say that the ranked structure of Scientology is especially evident in, or evidenced By the Sea Org? In other words, is this another example of a rank that is emblematic of the system, or within the Sea Org is rank more closely adhered to and more in evidence? I suppose these aren't mutually exclusive either but I was unsure of what exactly was being said and didn't want to edit the words in one direction or the other. Thanks in advance for the help. AndoSEKleton 14:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
To learn more about Scientology, be sure to visit:
Okay, since some of you don't understand, I will explain this clearly. Please read the following carefully:
The source you seek is me. I am the owner of the website codebot.org. I did not post either the orginal link above to this talk page or the paragraph in the article, someone else did. The article I wrote title "Scientology is not Science" was submitted to the social news website digg.com digg.com/links/Amazingly_Scary_In-depth_Look_at_Scientology_ and quickly became the highest rated story of the week, promting its rapid propagation over the Internet. By Monday afternoon the article had over 100,000 views. That evening I received notice that Verio was temporarily suspending my account in violation of their terms and conditions. I have been advised that I can say nothing more about this matter until the issue is resolved. Sysrpl 19:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, after searching for a while, I couldn't find any independent source for the ytmnd cease and desist event (although I'm inclined to believe it really happened). Anybody else questioning the mention of ytmnd in this article because of lack of independant source? Raymond Hill 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about removing this without prior discussion, however, why has this YTMND entry been allowed to remain here? Are we going to include every site that has been sent a cease and desist letter for trademark violations? Someone is using Wikipedia to push his or her agenda. I note the recent vandalism of links in this article (both positive and negative) by someone who replaced them all with YTMND links (thanks to the editor who reverted them). We should have nothing to do with this site – it is being used to destroy the good work of Wikipedia editors. -- Nuview 11:08, 12 July 2006 (PST)
Remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scientology/Archive_3#External_links_needs_a_severe_cull this discussion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scientology/Archive_3#External_links This one? And http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Scientology&oldid=30851022#External_Links this one? Wikipedia is not an agent to promote web sites. Only the external links that provide meaningful information for further readings should be listed. Raymond Hill 16:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I did some cleaning, but I feel more should be done, especially in the "Other sites" section, as many of the links there looks like they could be used as references instead — they are URL to specific articles rather than sites. Adding URL to specific articles seems a subjective exercice, we all have a favorites which we think is a must-see. Raymond Hill 17:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Since, there is not a consensus that Scientology is a "cult," it's POV to put it definitively in the Category of "Cult" with the Category tag (Category:Cult). To be NPOV, it should be placed in the (Category:Alleged cults). RJII 23:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
It could be argued that by definition, Scientology is most definitely a cult. According to dictionary.com, a cult is "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." I think that the vast majority of people would agree that Scientology would fit in this category. Kyle 10:27, 17 July 2006 (EST)
Could someone create a CoS hierarchical structure and ranking systems article? Perhaps it might include a graph or outline of the all the church's organizations? Also, a list of the preclear states, Sea Org ranks, ect. in the same article would be helpful.
David Miscavige + Church of Scientology International + Sea Org | - Rehabilitation Project Force + Commodore's Messenger Organization | - Religious Technology Center + Association for Better Living and Education | - Applied Scholastics | - Criminon | - ...
Sysrpl 21:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Scientology is an applied religious philosophy.www.whatisscientology.org/html/foreword/index.html 1/2 down the page. The aticle as it stands presents otherwise, is states that "Scientology is a system of practices" and "A system of beliefs". The article so confuses Scientology with the Church of Scientology that no one need write this article at all, this article could simply be deleted and the 40 million words which make up the applied philisophy, Scientology www.whatisscientology.org/index.html 40 millions words, well, the information of those words, as an article of Wikipedia, well, it could just be deleted. The article doesn't introduce Scientology, the article introduces The Church of Scientology in the very first paragraph without a word about those 40 million words. Terryeo 00:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I felt it's consistant with other cases, and the most useful target for readers. I'm mentioning it here, in case anyone disagrees. -- Rob 02:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears the morons at ytmnd.com have decided to spam links to their website across a range of Scientology-related articles. I've semi-protected this one and blocked a couple of vandals/spammers; could people please keep an eye on the other articles in the Scientology series? -- ChrisO 23:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey, normally I would correct this myself, but it appears that anonymous users can't edit this page. Anyway, in the last line of the "Silent Birth" section, the word "Noise" is clearly meant to be a link, but just shows up with square braces around it. Minor point, but like I say, I can't edit it.