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The main quote is so POV that I am going to replace it with a NPOV paraphrase. When I get up from my nap. :-) Dbabbitt 02:00, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
User Lord Kenneth has reverted the article to its extreme POV state. The topic certainly deserves an article, but as with any Wikipedia article, all significant points of view should be reflected. Ken states that "science is not democratic", which is true enough. But neither is science exclusively defined by the CSICOP gang, and having in the article only links to the CSICOP propaganda is not NPOV. There are many who hold the opinion that the CSICOP gang, contrary to their ostensible charter, are anything but open-minded and scientific in their investigations, assuming they make any real investigations at all of those subjects they fight against. In other words, there is a difference between scientific skepticism described as an objective ideal and putative "scientific skepticism" as embodied in the behavior of the CSICOP leadership and their ilk, and the article should reflect that. That means we should include links to materials that provide alternative views of skepticism. Give these different headings if you like, but let's get a little more NPOV here. Grizzly 07:49, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think the current version is POV. The article should state that the list of proven mistakes by skeptics is small when compared to the list of proven mistakes by people who don't follow Scientific skepticism. - Andries 20:20, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)
I don't care if people don't like science, or mistrust it. Science is our knowledge. Wikipedia is not an outlet for pseudoscientists, mystics, or other assorted loonies in peddling their crap. To critisize knowledge is to throw your brain out the window. Those who criticize scientific skeptics are credulous, unscientific wackos. If there is legitimate critisism about a PARTICULAR skeptic, please post it on that page. Reddi, you talk about "rhetorical fallacies" when that paragraph covers all skeptics! Ridiculous! Don't tell me your article was NPOV, putting "scientific" in italics is certainly commentary on your part. I know science and skeptics is a touchy subject, especially to the religious.... but too bad. - Lord Kenneth 03:42, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)
Of course, you're all for science until you find out it doesn't support your sacred cows. The statements added in are unverified, out of place, and obviously POV. I'm reverting it back. If you wish your changes to stay, request an admin to mediate this. - Lord Kenneth 00:42, Jan 21, 2004 (UTC)
Your type of "NPOV" reeks of Fox New's "fair and balanced". It's not. Just because the page doesn't talk about how people who think they have psychic powers dislike James Randi or whoever doesn't mean it's unbiased. If this page needs mention of "pseudo-skeptics" then we need "pseudo-historians", "pseudo-philosophers", etc. It's also interesting how you make the very fallacy you asserted skeptics make... - Lord Kenneth 18:18, Jan 24, 2004 (PST)
It's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't even understand the fallacies you are accusing me of making. Why don't you get an admin to weigh in before making these POV changes? Are you even sane? - Lord Kenneth 22:39, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)
The list of famous skeptics should include Basava Premanand. He was or still is a full time skeptic and the editor and publisher of the Indian Skeptic ( or at least a prominent contrinbutor). He appeared on Dutch TV to speak about his most famous and frequent target Sathya Sai Baba Recently (2004 or end of 2003) there was a radio documentary on the BBC about him. Personally I had never heard of James Randi and the other skeptics until 2 years ago but I knew Basava Premanand quite well. Andries
What's with these anti-skeptic trolls all of the sudden? Biased links and unsupported opinions in topics is not "NPOV". Fools. - Lord Kenneth 23:14, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation is you're interested. - Lord Kenneth 02:14, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)
Aggressive Ignorance is unacceptable here. I'm not sure how things are done where your from Kenneth, but critics will be heard. No one is looking to silence any valid information you present, but you WILL NEVER be allowed to present controvercial views without the voices of critics being heard. Logical discourse and freedom of speech are both areas which must be embraced by any skeptic with a love for science, or truth. It saddens me to sometimes think some love neither, and only seek to nihilistically reject anything new or difficult to understand which confronts them. Jack 02:15, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Two more things that should be added.
I removed the reference to CSICOP because this article's subject is skepticism in general; I think specific criticism of CSICOP in particular would be better placed on CSICOP's page. Bryan 00:48, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"not seen that -EVER- used in response to skeptics"? you need to get out more then ... it's can be seen @ several places on the net ... "there is no historical factuality behind [the] claims"? Sorry to inform you there is ... "The heliocentric theory, for example, was before scientific skepticism existed much"? The heliocentric theory challenged the existing scientific theory that the sun orbited the earth ... [remember time and place are all important] ... "It was the dogmas of the church, not science, which kept us from progress"? Science at the time was part of the church ... thankfully the skeptics of the heliocentric theory didn't win out ... [you learn this in history] "I also believe (I might be wrong on this one) that continental drift was mostly challenged by the religious who believed in a young earth, not scientific skeptics" Continental drift was first proposed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener who noticed the similarity in shape of the coasts of Africa and South America. His ideas were not taken seriously by geologists (ie. science skeptics) who pointed out that there was no mechanism for continental drift ... "And of course relativity was challenged -- it was a new idea at the time!" very good ... @least that is something we can agree about ... "Obviously relativity was accepted once enough evidence came to light to support it, so it doesn't seem like skeptics actively denied it"? Many did "actively" deny it ... until well after Einstein's death (when, IIRC, the special one could be proven (the general is still to be tested, again IIRC)); though it is still debated in some circles (ala. duality)) ... "which [I am] quick to paint as a broadly closed-minded group"? I don't "paint" them .. they "paint" themselves ... "In fact, I don't see any basis for the criticisms you have placed at all. As to meteors, there was no enough scientific evidence -- anecdote, if anything."? It would seem that there is alot of data on it ... but I am not knowledgeable on it [someone else put that in] ... Since [I] don't want to discuss the changes first? I have continually [against my better judgement] tried to discuss it with you and reach a compromise ... when you can't reach a compromise (with me or the groups of other editors), then you get what we got here [you adhering to your POV only]... I'm not the only one that is editiing the article toward a NPOV (an' of which you disreguard) ... "I'll just edit it, I'll revert your biased changes." Ditto ... JDR
I already read it (had a few edit conflicts; in the meantime mirv took it out) and I am offened ... I've come to the conclusion that you are a troll ... Calling names [see this page and it's history], refusing to extend any etiquette, and refusal to compromise ... all signs of trolling ... JDR
"The belief that the sun circled the earth was not a scientific one" .. you have that turned around ... mainstream science was part of the church ... skeptics did not believe the sun-centered theory ... "What's this phenomonon you believe in that you claim skeptics deny?" I am not proposing any theory ... just pointing out that skeptics deny penonomena that exist and which cannot be expalain by current science ... "When evidence was presented skeptics changed their minds, did they not?" I think that was noted in the article ... as a last note (I will not respond to you again), take a history class and a logic class, kenneth ... you need it ... JDR [PS. And as a clarification, I'll also add that skeptics have historically denied penonomena that existed and which could not be explained by the then current science. JDR].
What "phenomenon that exists" that "skeptics deny"? It's funny how you refuse to tell me. Also, because the church controlled "science" (not the scientific method) does not mean they were acting scientifically. I've compromised enough. Cease your edits for now, and request mediation on the link above. You are the one making the changes. It's your duty to seek mediation. - Lord Kenneth 16:23, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
OK, let us look at each claim to discuss it in detail and end this reversion war:
My responses:
I don't have time for more of the changes ATM, but we should work changes over one at a time instead of reverting each other. Feel free to add changes to the top section (but sign them, and do _not_ make them POV) -- snoyes 18:51, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
As a skeptic, I'm getting quite annoying at being told what I supposedly think. The links contain obvious lies, and I will not permit bull**** to stay on the page. - Lord Kenneth 19:29, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
Science is a self-correcnce I took the initiative on adding some of those points :), but evidently opinions differ. Bryan 19:16, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There is one universal scientific method.
This is completely true, and one physics textbook I've read even talks about it. However, what the article does not mention is that among scientists the scientific method refers more to how science works and not a step-by-step process. Again, this is another criticism of skepticism that is completely irrelevent and a non-issue.
Science is our best method of acquiring knowledge.
THIS is a myth? Ha, no, just no. Science is the only method that has produced anything of value (technology, medicine, etc...). If someone sees a ghost, the writer says, it is scientifically invalid but could be true. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Science already has determined the probable "causes" of ghosts. Hallucination and hysteria. Science is based on repeated observation and even observations on observations to find out if what we see is even true-- illusions, for example.
Scientist are more intelligent than average, and better than average problem solvers.
Again, whether this is true or not is irrelevent to what skepticism is.
People may not be perfect with reasoning, but training in the use of formal methods of reasoning, and particularly knowledge of science improves that reasoning.
Again, what does this have to do with skepticism?
I could go on and on about this page. It mentions the flawed and silly PEAR studies, for example, as evidence. Here's a fallacy this bozo makes: "So clearly, being an atheist does not make one a good skeptic, why should being a good skeptic make one an atheist?" Obviously the answer is common sense: because there are multiple ways to arrive at a conclusion, some ways are incorrect, others are not. I could say this: Being scaly does not make a good reptile, why should a "good reptile" be scaly? Being loud makes someone obnoxious, so shouldn't being obnoxious also make someone loud? It's silly.
As I said, I could critique that page all day - Lord Kenneth 20:10, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
These ongoing reverts are not helpful. Please try to find a consensus. -- JeLuF 20:16, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
I want to add the following to Analysis
Though general criticism of scientific skepticism is often employed by proponents of protosciences, and, more generally, by advocates of pseudoscience, scientific skepticism in practice can sometimes be abused.
You're right! Not accepting a theory unless there is sufficient evidence is VERY abusive!
Some skeptics reject theories which are legitimate on the basis of insufficient evidence, and although this is the very definition of skepticism it can in some cases be a fallacy (i.e. argument from ignorance).
You're right! Because we all know how science can decide a theory is valid if no evidence supports it. Yep, that's a huge flaw of scientific skeptics, rejecting theories that have no evidence. DAMN THAT EVIDENCE! DAMN IT STRAIGHT TO HELL! Oh, and argument from ignorance, yeppers! WE ALL know how skeptics insist something isn't true unless evidence appears that makes it true! Nope, skeptics certainly don't postulate the alternative "there is no reason to believe in something unless sufficient evidence supports it". Never, ever seen it.
Bruno Bauer has said that skeptics (and physicists in particular) tend to disbelieve, without investigation, the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of science.
Yep, that Bruno Bauer, always on the ball, as usual! Quite an authority on the subject, and worthy of mention, being a historian and theologian and all.
It can even be said that the positions of skeptics must be viewed skeptically, as they are often quick to reject, prior to thorough investigation. What is usually viewed as closed-mindedness, however, may just be skepticism toward new ideas which do not yet have solid evidence supporting them.
Yes, rejecting ideas in which there is no evidence for! OH, THE HUMANITY! OH, THE SHAME! I'm glad that the first statement in this section is so well-known and considered fact by many. I'm glad that wikipedia includes mention of it, because it's so well-supported and well-known!
Critics of scientific skeptics point out that some scientific skeptics are neither open-minded nor scientific in their investigations.
Ah, yes, critics of science, such wonderful, unbiased people with no interior motives and no reasons to criticize the data-gathering process. Yep, no POV here, with no real examples being provided.
Incidents discounted by skeptics where contemporary scientific beliefs were contradicted and, of which were later shown to be correct, include the theory of continental drift (first proposed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener) and quantum mechanics.
OH NO! SKEPTICISM to NEW IDEAS? UNHEARD OF! HOW TERRIBLE! Why, those skeptics should be skeptical and adopt new ideas the second they come out, like our friend Reddi here suggests.
This can also be seen dating back to the developement of the heliocentric (eg., Sun-centered) theory of the solar system overturning the skeptic's geocentric theory.
Yes, because we all know how advanced science and how widespread skepticism was back then! Opposition to such a theory CLEARLY must be due to scientific and not religious dogmas!
Perhaps the most infamous example of scientists resistance to genuine evidence was Pierre-Simon Laplace's statement that rocks do not fall from heaven; in the face of copious well documented instances to the contrary.
Yes, well-documented back then, indeed! "There's mountains of ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, why don't you believe?"
However, in the historical cases where this has happened, the evidence generally gains eventual acceptance (often when the technology and associated experimental advances are made so that the falsifiability of the theory is possible). It can be important to consider the legitimacy of criticism by skeptics on a case-by-case basis, just as the plausibility of a particular target of skepticism must be considered on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, because all skeptics are one closely-knit tied together group who believe the exact same thing! It's best to mistrust these sneaky l'il plotting devils!
It can be difficult (or simply impossible) to argue that skepticism of a particular claim is "excessive" until after the claim itself has been shown conclusively to be true or false (and, as science progresses, a reverification of that conclusion).
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/denial/lack of belief pending evidence can be excessive, else the above statement wouldn't make much sense.
I'm tired of being nice and wasting my time. If it takes biting sarcasm to drive my point across, then that's what I'll use.
Seriously, if skeptics and scientists were as closed-minded as you want people to believe then there wouldn't be any progress. The very fact that we have some level of progress today and know many things that are true (and what is false) is evidence of that. This whole criticism section is practically unwarrented and stupid.
And I haven't even gotten to the links yet. - Lord Kenneth 20:49, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
Pace. Enough. We can argue endlessly about which view is "correct", and it will achieve nothing but hurt feelings. I'm going to go read some Kuhn and Feyerabend (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and Against Method, for starters), then try to write up a critical section with minimal reference to pseudo- and proto-sciences. Agreeable? — No-One Jones (talk) 21:00, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/denial/lack of belief pending evidence can be excessive, else the above statement wouldn't make much sense.
I'm tired of being nice and wasting my time. If it takes biting sarcasm to drive my point across, then that's what I'll use.
Seriously, if skeptics and scientists were as closed-minded as you want people to believe then there wouldn't be any progress. The very fact that we have some level of progress today and know many things that are true (and what is false) is evidence of that. This whole criticism section is practically unwarrented and stupid.
particular claim is "excessive" until after the claim itself has been shown conclusively to be true or false (and, as science progresses, a reverification of that conclusion).
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/deniparticular claim is "excessive" until after the claim itself has been shown conclusively to be true or false (and, as science progresses, a reverification of that conclusion).
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/denirent in this article could build up to dangerous levels. Bryan 22:32, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I should also point out that, far from driving your point across, "biting sarcasm" probably does more to alienate people from you and therefore obscure your point. I skipped reading most of what you wrote above because it was fullJan 2004 (UTC)
To bring the discussion a bit more on track, there seems to be some confusion here between a discussion of science versus scientific skepticism. This article is supposed to be about the latter, not the former. (And no, the two are not the same topic, else we should not have a separate article.) My original point was about the bias of the article as it was, drawing as it did only on the opinions of the extreme hard-line faction of skeptical rhetoric. We might all agree on the usefulness and validity of science and still have different stances when it comes to our skeptical attitudes. For Ken to suggest that the community of skeptics is somehow monolithic and uniform in its orthodoxy is ludicrous. Let me give a few quotes from the skeptics (all current or one-time members of CSICOP) themselves to illustrate my point:
And then there were several prominent members of CSICOP who left over the Mars effect fiasco, reflecting disagreement on how skeptical debate should be carried out.
As I understand it, the skeptical community has some of its own neutral terminology for describing such attitudes. The "wet" skeptics (their term, not mine) hold the attitude that the subjects they attack are not worth addressing on their merits since they are obviously false to any right-thinking person, and so the wet skeptic is justified in using primarily (and often exclusively) ridicule and ad hominem in attacking these subjects. The "dry" skeptics (again, their term) believe that ridicule and being impolite will turn off too many otherwise receptive listeners, and they do their best to remain polite and to address these subjects in detail on a scientific basis, fearing that failure to do so will leave people with the false impression that the skeptical/scientific community has no counterargument. Indeed, some in the community believe that the failure to address quackery, pseudoscience, etc, on detailed scientific grounds is a real impediment to the acceptance and promotion of science in the general populace.
These are the types of differences in views that should be reflected in the article. Grizzly 10:41, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To bring the discussion a bit more on track, there seems to be some confusion here between a discussion of science versus scientific skepticism. This article is supposed to be about the latter, not the former. (And no, the two are not the same topic, else we should not have a separate article.) My original point was about the bias of the article as it was, drawing as it did only on the opinions of the extreme hard-line faction of skeptical rhetoric. We might all agree on the usefulness and validity of science and still have different stances when it comes to our skeptical attitudes. For Ken to suggest that the community of skeptics rs, and they do their best to remain polite and to address these subjects in detail on a scientific basis, fearing that failure to do so will leave people with the false impression that the skeptical/scientific community has no counterargument. Indeed, some in the community believe that the failure to address quackery, pseudoscience, etc, on detailed scientific grounds is a real impediment to the acceptance and promotion of science in the general populace.
These are the types of differences in views that should be reflected in the article. Grizzly 10:41, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I couldn't find anywhere above that they specifically referred to the individual issues. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I couldn't find anywhere above that they specifically referred to the individual issues. [[User:Lir|Lir Why don't you go make the Dynamic theory of gravity fan club and leave wikipedia alone? - Lord Kenneth 23:03, Jan 31, 2004 (UTC)
It's obvious that they are trying to make anyone who is closed-minded toward scientific progress a "scientific skeptic" (despite being against the very definition) and are trying to make them seem like a tight-knit group of people. JDR's "points" are completely and absolutely inaccurate. It's hard to understand him because of his childish writing. I propose that JDR find another web site to troll on, perhaps he can make his own where he can rant all day!
Wikipedia is not an outlet for those with an agenda, especially those against fact and science. NPOV is cherished here, not POV attempts to discredit a philosophy based the fact that your theory is not accepted by the scientific establishment. Since Reddi/JDR is unable to understand and does not want to, I propose he be ignored and his POV changes edited out.
Others have noted his erratic spelling, constant plugging in of errors, using test from other sources, and inability to come to a compromise because of his agendas. Reddi, how about this: You leave this page alone, and discuss any future changes you would like to make with a sysop.
As for Mirv, you are just plain anti-skeptic, and you know of your agenda. I don't think there's anything to discuss with you. - Lord Kenneth 01:00, Feb 1, 2004 (UTC)
I would like to note that Tim Starling's attempt to more thoroughly explain the conflict between skeptics and their detractors is an admirable job ... it draws a "clear" line to where skeptic's information (and thier warnings of the danger of pseudoscience) should be and where the detractor's information (and thier notes over the criticism of valid theories) should go. Though there could be more said on both sides (and I believe that there will be and that should be allowed), I'd like to extend a note of thanks to him, personally (not that that means a damn thing, but TIFWIW) ... Sincerely, JDR
Excised text:
I have no idea what that means, Gene. Can you explain it please? -- Tim Starling 08:06, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)
Evidence can only be interpreted using an appropriate hypothesis or model. Theory is an exceedingly important part of science, and cannot be ignored. To say that this case serves as a warning against ignoring evidence is arguable. -- Tim Starling 02:16, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
That there is such a thing as theory-driven resistence to what seem to be observed facts is a commonplace notion in the history & philosophy of science. If you think I am saying theory should be ignored (will you ever find a mathemaician who would say that? I doubt it) then you should read what I wrote more carefully. On a Quineinan view, knowledge is a kind of web, with the most important elements on the inside, where we store logic and the like. We want to disturb the web as little as possible when accomodating new data, and one way to do that is to resist the data. There is logic in this--just because someone says they've achieved cold fusion, one hardly needs to believe them on the spot. But that does not mean we should ignore the problem of theory-driven resistence, which you seem to be proposing. If we took that far enough, we wouldn't have a structure of scientific revolutions, because we wouldn't have any scientific revolutions. Gene Ward Smith 05:22, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
What I miss in the current version, is a discussion of the scope and limits of scientific skepticism. Phenomonena that are spontaneous and random such as meteorites are difficult to research empirically. This must have been the reason why it took so long before falling stones were accepted by skeptics. Likewise, many believers of the paranormal will claim that these paranormal phenomena are random and spontaneous. They will say that the failure of scientists to observe them is only because scientists rely too much on controlled obsveration and unjustly belittle the value of anecdotical evidence.
Andries 3 Feb 2004
I'm removing the previously removed reference to "discontinuance" of " Mathematical Games" for three reasons:
-- Jerzy 03:37, 2004 Feb 8 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The main quote is so POV that I am going to replace it with a NPOV paraphrase. When I get up from my nap. :-) Dbabbitt 02:00, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
User Lord Kenneth has reverted the article to its extreme POV state. The topic certainly deserves an article, but as with any Wikipedia article, all significant points of view should be reflected. Ken states that "science is not democratic", which is true enough. But neither is science exclusively defined by the CSICOP gang, and having in the article only links to the CSICOP propaganda is not NPOV. There are many who hold the opinion that the CSICOP gang, contrary to their ostensible charter, are anything but open-minded and scientific in their investigations, assuming they make any real investigations at all of those subjects they fight against. In other words, there is a difference between scientific skepticism described as an objective ideal and putative "scientific skepticism" as embodied in the behavior of the CSICOP leadership and their ilk, and the article should reflect that. That means we should include links to materials that provide alternative views of skepticism. Give these different headings if you like, but let's get a little more NPOV here. Grizzly 07:49, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think the current version is POV. The article should state that the list of proven mistakes by skeptics is small when compared to the list of proven mistakes by people who don't follow Scientific skepticism. - Andries 20:20, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)
I don't care if people don't like science, or mistrust it. Science is our knowledge. Wikipedia is not an outlet for pseudoscientists, mystics, or other assorted loonies in peddling their crap. To critisize knowledge is to throw your brain out the window. Those who criticize scientific skeptics are credulous, unscientific wackos. If there is legitimate critisism about a PARTICULAR skeptic, please post it on that page. Reddi, you talk about "rhetorical fallacies" when that paragraph covers all skeptics! Ridiculous! Don't tell me your article was NPOV, putting "scientific" in italics is certainly commentary on your part. I know science and skeptics is a touchy subject, especially to the religious.... but too bad. - Lord Kenneth 03:42, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)
Of course, you're all for science until you find out it doesn't support your sacred cows. The statements added in are unverified, out of place, and obviously POV. I'm reverting it back. If you wish your changes to stay, request an admin to mediate this. - Lord Kenneth 00:42, Jan 21, 2004 (UTC)
Your type of "NPOV" reeks of Fox New's "fair and balanced". It's not. Just because the page doesn't talk about how people who think they have psychic powers dislike James Randi or whoever doesn't mean it's unbiased. If this page needs mention of "pseudo-skeptics" then we need "pseudo-historians", "pseudo-philosophers", etc. It's also interesting how you make the very fallacy you asserted skeptics make... - Lord Kenneth 18:18, Jan 24, 2004 (PST)
It's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't even understand the fallacies you are accusing me of making. Why don't you get an admin to weigh in before making these POV changes? Are you even sane? - Lord Kenneth 22:39, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)
The list of famous skeptics should include Basava Premanand. He was or still is a full time skeptic and the editor and publisher of the Indian Skeptic ( or at least a prominent contrinbutor). He appeared on Dutch TV to speak about his most famous and frequent target Sathya Sai Baba Recently (2004 or end of 2003) there was a radio documentary on the BBC about him. Personally I had never heard of James Randi and the other skeptics until 2 years ago but I knew Basava Premanand quite well. Andries
What's with these anti-skeptic trolls all of the sudden? Biased links and unsupported opinions in topics is not "NPOV". Fools. - Lord Kenneth 23:14, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation is you're interested. - Lord Kenneth 02:14, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)
Aggressive Ignorance is unacceptable here. I'm not sure how things are done where your from Kenneth, but critics will be heard. No one is looking to silence any valid information you present, but you WILL NEVER be allowed to present controvercial views without the voices of critics being heard. Logical discourse and freedom of speech are both areas which must be embraced by any skeptic with a love for science, or truth. It saddens me to sometimes think some love neither, and only seek to nihilistically reject anything new or difficult to understand which confronts them. Jack 02:15, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Two more things that should be added.
I removed the reference to CSICOP because this article's subject is skepticism in general; I think specific criticism of CSICOP in particular would be better placed on CSICOP's page. Bryan 00:48, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"not seen that -EVER- used in response to skeptics"? you need to get out more then ... it's can be seen @ several places on the net ... "there is no historical factuality behind [the] claims"? Sorry to inform you there is ... "The heliocentric theory, for example, was before scientific skepticism existed much"? The heliocentric theory challenged the existing scientific theory that the sun orbited the earth ... [remember time and place are all important] ... "It was the dogmas of the church, not science, which kept us from progress"? Science at the time was part of the church ... thankfully the skeptics of the heliocentric theory didn't win out ... [you learn this in history] "I also believe (I might be wrong on this one) that continental drift was mostly challenged by the religious who believed in a young earth, not scientific skeptics" Continental drift was first proposed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener who noticed the similarity in shape of the coasts of Africa and South America. His ideas were not taken seriously by geologists (ie. science skeptics) who pointed out that there was no mechanism for continental drift ... "And of course relativity was challenged -- it was a new idea at the time!" very good ... @least that is something we can agree about ... "Obviously relativity was accepted once enough evidence came to light to support it, so it doesn't seem like skeptics actively denied it"? Many did "actively" deny it ... until well after Einstein's death (when, IIRC, the special one could be proven (the general is still to be tested, again IIRC)); though it is still debated in some circles (ala. duality)) ... "which [I am] quick to paint as a broadly closed-minded group"? I don't "paint" them .. they "paint" themselves ... "In fact, I don't see any basis for the criticisms you have placed at all. As to meteors, there was no enough scientific evidence -- anecdote, if anything."? It would seem that there is alot of data on it ... but I am not knowledgeable on it [someone else put that in] ... Since [I] don't want to discuss the changes first? I have continually [against my better judgement] tried to discuss it with you and reach a compromise ... when you can't reach a compromise (with me or the groups of other editors), then you get what we got here [you adhering to your POV only]... I'm not the only one that is editiing the article toward a NPOV (an' of which you disreguard) ... "I'll just edit it, I'll revert your biased changes." Ditto ... JDR
I already read it (had a few edit conflicts; in the meantime mirv took it out) and I am offened ... I've come to the conclusion that you are a troll ... Calling names [see this page and it's history], refusing to extend any etiquette, and refusal to compromise ... all signs of trolling ... JDR
"The belief that the sun circled the earth was not a scientific one" .. you have that turned around ... mainstream science was part of the church ... skeptics did not believe the sun-centered theory ... "What's this phenomonon you believe in that you claim skeptics deny?" I am not proposing any theory ... just pointing out that skeptics deny penonomena that exist and which cannot be expalain by current science ... "When evidence was presented skeptics changed their minds, did they not?" I think that was noted in the article ... as a last note (I will not respond to you again), take a history class and a logic class, kenneth ... you need it ... JDR [PS. And as a clarification, I'll also add that skeptics have historically denied penonomena that existed and which could not be explained by the then current science. JDR].
What "phenomenon that exists" that "skeptics deny"? It's funny how you refuse to tell me. Also, because the church controlled "science" (not the scientific method) does not mean they were acting scientifically. I've compromised enough. Cease your edits for now, and request mediation on the link above. You are the one making the changes. It's your duty to seek mediation. - Lord Kenneth 16:23, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
OK, let us look at each claim to discuss it in detail and end this reversion war:
My responses:
I don't have time for more of the changes ATM, but we should work changes over one at a time instead of reverting each other. Feel free to add changes to the top section (but sign them, and do _not_ make them POV) -- snoyes 18:51, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
As a skeptic, I'm getting quite annoying at being told what I supposedly think. The links contain obvious lies, and I will not permit bull**** to stay on the page. - Lord Kenneth 19:29, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
Science is a self-correcnce I took the initiative on adding some of those points :), but evidently opinions differ. Bryan 19:16, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There is one universal scientific method.
This is completely true, and one physics textbook I've read even talks about it. However, what the article does not mention is that among scientists the scientific method refers more to how science works and not a step-by-step process. Again, this is another criticism of skepticism that is completely irrelevent and a non-issue.
Science is our best method of acquiring knowledge.
THIS is a myth? Ha, no, just no. Science is the only method that has produced anything of value (technology, medicine, etc...). If someone sees a ghost, the writer says, it is scientifically invalid but could be true. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Science already has determined the probable "causes" of ghosts. Hallucination and hysteria. Science is based on repeated observation and even observations on observations to find out if what we see is even true-- illusions, for example.
Scientist are more intelligent than average, and better than average problem solvers.
Again, whether this is true or not is irrelevent to what skepticism is.
People may not be perfect with reasoning, but training in the use of formal methods of reasoning, and particularly knowledge of science improves that reasoning.
Again, what does this have to do with skepticism?
I could go on and on about this page. It mentions the flawed and silly PEAR studies, for example, as evidence. Here's a fallacy this bozo makes: "So clearly, being an atheist does not make one a good skeptic, why should being a good skeptic make one an atheist?" Obviously the answer is common sense: because there are multiple ways to arrive at a conclusion, some ways are incorrect, others are not. I could say this: Being scaly does not make a good reptile, why should a "good reptile" be scaly? Being loud makes someone obnoxious, so shouldn't being obnoxious also make someone loud? It's silly.
As I said, I could critique that page all day - Lord Kenneth 20:10, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
These ongoing reverts are not helpful. Please try to find a consensus. -- JeLuF 20:16, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
I want to add the following to Analysis
Though general criticism of scientific skepticism is often employed by proponents of protosciences, and, more generally, by advocates of pseudoscience, scientific skepticism in practice can sometimes be abused.
You're right! Not accepting a theory unless there is sufficient evidence is VERY abusive!
Some skeptics reject theories which are legitimate on the basis of insufficient evidence, and although this is the very definition of skepticism it can in some cases be a fallacy (i.e. argument from ignorance).
You're right! Because we all know how science can decide a theory is valid if no evidence supports it. Yep, that's a huge flaw of scientific skeptics, rejecting theories that have no evidence. DAMN THAT EVIDENCE! DAMN IT STRAIGHT TO HELL! Oh, and argument from ignorance, yeppers! WE ALL know how skeptics insist something isn't true unless evidence appears that makes it true! Nope, skeptics certainly don't postulate the alternative "there is no reason to believe in something unless sufficient evidence supports it". Never, ever seen it.
Bruno Bauer has said that skeptics (and physicists in particular) tend to disbelieve, without investigation, the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of science.
Yep, that Bruno Bauer, always on the ball, as usual! Quite an authority on the subject, and worthy of mention, being a historian and theologian and all.
It can even be said that the positions of skeptics must be viewed skeptically, as they are often quick to reject, prior to thorough investigation. What is usually viewed as closed-mindedness, however, may just be skepticism toward new ideas which do not yet have solid evidence supporting them.
Yes, rejecting ideas in which there is no evidence for! OH, THE HUMANITY! OH, THE SHAME! I'm glad that the first statement in this section is so well-known and considered fact by many. I'm glad that wikipedia includes mention of it, because it's so well-supported and well-known!
Critics of scientific skeptics point out that some scientific skeptics are neither open-minded nor scientific in their investigations.
Ah, yes, critics of science, such wonderful, unbiased people with no interior motives and no reasons to criticize the data-gathering process. Yep, no POV here, with no real examples being provided.
Incidents discounted by skeptics where contemporary scientific beliefs were contradicted and, of which were later shown to be correct, include the theory of continental drift (first proposed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener) and quantum mechanics.
OH NO! SKEPTICISM to NEW IDEAS? UNHEARD OF! HOW TERRIBLE! Why, those skeptics should be skeptical and adopt new ideas the second they come out, like our friend Reddi here suggests.
This can also be seen dating back to the developement of the heliocentric (eg., Sun-centered) theory of the solar system overturning the skeptic's geocentric theory.
Yes, because we all know how advanced science and how widespread skepticism was back then! Opposition to such a theory CLEARLY must be due to scientific and not religious dogmas!
Perhaps the most infamous example of scientists resistance to genuine evidence was Pierre-Simon Laplace's statement that rocks do not fall from heaven; in the face of copious well documented instances to the contrary.
Yes, well-documented back then, indeed! "There's mountains of ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, why don't you believe?"
However, in the historical cases where this has happened, the evidence generally gains eventual acceptance (often when the technology and associated experimental advances are made so that the falsifiability of the theory is possible). It can be important to consider the legitimacy of criticism by skeptics on a case-by-case basis, just as the plausibility of a particular target of skepticism must be considered on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, because all skeptics are one closely-knit tied together group who believe the exact same thing! It's best to mistrust these sneaky l'il plotting devils!
It can be difficult (or simply impossible) to argue that skepticism of a particular claim is "excessive" until after the claim itself has been shown conclusively to be true or false (and, as science progresses, a reverification of that conclusion).
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/denial/lack of belief pending evidence can be excessive, else the above statement wouldn't make much sense.
I'm tired of being nice and wasting my time. If it takes biting sarcasm to drive my point across, then that's what I'll use.
Seriously, if skeptics and scientists were as closed-minded as you want people to believe then there wouldn't be any progress. The very fact that we have some level of progress today and know many things that are true (and what is false) is evidence of that. This whole criticism section is practically unwarrented and stupid.
And I haven't even gotten to the links yet. - Lord Kenneth 20:49, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
Pace. Enough. We can argue endlessly about which view is "correct", and it will achieve nothing but hurt feelings. I'm going to go read some Kuhn and Feyerabend (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and Against Method, for starters), then try to write up a critical section with minimal reference to pseudo- and proto-sciences. Agreeable? — No-One Jones (talk) 21:00, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/denial/lack of belief pending evidence can be excessive, else the above statement wouldn't make much sense.
I'm tired of being nice and wasting my time. If it takes biting sarcasm to drive my point across, then that's what I'll use.
Seriously, if skeptics and scientists were as closed-minded as you want people to believe then there wouldn't be any progress. The very fact that we have some level of progress today and know many things that are true (and what is false) is evidence of that. This whole criticism section is practically unwarrented and stupid.
particular claim is "excessive" until after the claim itself has been shown conclusively to be true or false (and, as science progresses, a reverification of that conclusion).
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/deniparticular claim is "excessive" until after the claim itself has been shown conclusively to be true or false (and, as science progresses, a reverification of that conclusion).
Good thing that disbelief/unbelief/denirent in this article could build up to dangerous levels. Bryan 22:32, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I should also point out that, far from driving your point across, "biting sarcasm" probably does more to alienate people from you and therefore obscure your point. I skipped reading most of what you wrote above because it was fullJan 2004 (UTC)
To bring the discussion a bit more on track, there seems to be some confusion here between a discussion of science versus scientific skepticism. This article is supposed to be about the latter, not the former. (And no, the two are not the same topic, else we should not have a separate article.) My original point was about the bias of the article as it was, drawing as it did only on the opinions of the extreme hard-line faction of skeptical rhetoric. We might all agree on the usefulness and validity of science and still have different stances when it comes to our skeptical attitudes. For Ken to suggest that the community of skeptics is somehow monolithic and uniform in its orthodoxy is ludicrous. Let me give a few quotes from the skeptics (all current or one-time members of CSICOP) themselves to illustrate my point:
And then there were several prominent members of CSICOP who left over the Mars effect fiasco, reflecting disagreement on how skeptical debate should be carried out.
As I understand it, the skeptical community has some of its own neutral terminology for describing such attitudes. The "wet" skeptics (their term, not mine) hold the attitude that the subjects they attack are not worth addressing on their merits since they are obviously false to any right-thinking person, and so the wet skeptic is justified in using primarily (and often exclusively) ridicule and ad hominem in attacking these subjects. The "dry" skeptics (again, their term) believe that ridicule and being impolite will turn off too many otherwise receptive listeners, and they do their best to remain polite and to address these subjects in detail on a scientific basis, fearing that failure to do so will leave people with the false impression that the skeptical/scientific community has no counterargument. Indeed, some in the community believe that the failure to address quackery, pseudoscience, etc, on detailed scientific grounds is a real impediment to the acceptance and promotion of science in the general populace.
These are the types of differences in views that should be reflected in the article. Grizzly 10:41, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To bring the discussion a bit more on track, there seems to be some confusion here between a discussion of science versus scientific skepticism. This article is supposed to be about the latter, not the former. (And no, the two are not the same topic, else we should not have a separate article.) My original point was about the bias of the article as it was, drawing as it did only on the opinions of the extreme hard-line faction of skeptical rhetoric. We might all agree on the usefulness and validity of science and still have different stances when it comes to our skeptical attitudes. For Ken to suggest that the community of skeptics rs, and they do their best to remain polite and to address these subjects in detail on a scientific basis, fearing that failure to do so will leave people with the false impression that the skeptical/scientific community has no counterargument. Indeed, some in the community believe that the failure to address quackery, pseudoscience, etc, on detailed scientific grounds is a real impediment to the acceptance and promotion of science in the general populace.
These are the types of differences in views that should be reflected in the article. Grizzly 10:41, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I couldn't find anywhere above that they specifically referred to the individual issues. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I couldn't find anywhere above that they specifically referred to the individual issues. [[User:Lir|Lir Why don't you go make the Dynamic theory of gravity fan club and leave wikipedia alone? - Lord Kenneth 23:03, Jan 31, 2004 (UTC)
It's obvious that they are trying to make anyone who is closed-minded toward scientific progress a "scientific skeptic" (despite being against the very definition) and are trying to make them seem like a tight-knit group of people. JDR's "points" are completely and absolutely inaccurate. It's hard to understand him because of his childish writing. I propose that JDR find another web site to troll on, perhaps he can make his own where he can rant all day!
Wikipedia is not an outlet for those with an agenda, especially those against fact and science. NPOV is cherished here, not POV attempts to discredit a philosophy based the fact that your theory is not accepted by the scientific establishment. Since Reddi/JDR is unable to understand and does not want to, I propose he be ignored and his POV changes edited out.
Others have noted his erratic spelling, constant plugging in of errors, using test from other sources, and inability to come to a compromise because of his agendas. Reddi, how about this: You leave this page alone, and discuss any future changes you would like to make with a sysop.
As for Mirv, you are just plain anti-skeptic, and you know of your agenda. I don't think there's anything to discuss with you. - Lord Kenneth 01:00, Feb 1, 2004 (UTC)
I would like to note that Tim Starling's attempt to more thoroughly explain the conflict between skeptics and their detractors is an admirable job ... it draws a "clear" line to where skeptic's information (and thier warnings of the danger of pseudoscience) should be and where the detractor's information (and thier notes over the criticism of valid theories) should go. Though there could be more said on both sides (and I believe that there will be and that should be allowed), I'd like to extend a note of thanks to him, personally (not that that means a damn thing, but TIFWIW) ... Sincerely, JDR
Excised text:
I have no idea what that means, Gene. Can you explain it please? -- Tim Starling 08:06, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)
Evidence can only be interpreted using an appropriate hypothesis or model. Theory is an exceedingly important part of science, and cannot be ignored. To say that this case serves as a warning against ignoring evidence is arguable. -- Tim Starling 02:16, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
That there is such a thing as theory-driven resistence to what seem to be observed facts is a commonplace notion in the history & philosophy of science. If you think I am saying theory should be ignored (will you ever find a mathemaician who would say that? I doubt it) then you should read what I wrote more carefully. On a Quineinan view, knowledge is a kind of web, with the most important elements on the inside, where we store logic and the like. We want to disturb the web as little as possible when accomodating new data, and one way to do that is to resist the data. There is logic in this--just because someone says they've achieved cold fusion, one hardly needs to believe them on the spot. But that does not mean we should ignore the problem of theory-driven resistence, which you seem to be proposing. If we took that far enough, we wouldn't have a structure of scientific revolutions, because we wouldn't have any scientific revolutions. Gene Ward Smith 05:22, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
What I miss in the current version, is a discussion of the scope and limits of scientific skepticism. Phenomonena that are spontaneous and random such as meteorites are difficult to research empirically. This must have been the reason why it took so long before falling stones were accepted by skeptics. Likewise, many believers of the paranormal will claim that these paranormal phenomena are random and spontaneous. They will say that the failure of scientists to observe them is only because scientists rely too much on controlled obsveration and unjustly belittle the value of anecdotical evidence.
Andries 3 Feb 2004
I'm removing the previously removed reference to "discontinuance" of " Mathematical Games" for three reasons:
-- Jerzy 03:37, 2004 Feb 8 (UTC)