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No, no, and no. If you owned a publishing company and had an entry about your publishing company in your encyclopedia that gave you, the publisher, glowing praise would that be ethical? No it would not. Is it kosher? No it is not. Would I write an article about myself? No I would not.
Who created this entry and why? If the group needs a web-page to announce to the world that they exist I suggest Yahoo/Geocities. Not here! Wjbean
How do you fix that tag? SkeenaR 04:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Got it.
I removed the merge tag because I reconsidered whether the proposal was the right thing to do and came to the conclusion that it is not. If anyone else has an opinion they would like to share please do so. We need to make this article over as well. SkeenaR 02:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
One needs to understand that this movement isn’t about promoting any conspiracy theory. They aren’t expounding any; all they are doing is questioning the science behind the official explanation. This needs to be made clear. H0riz0n 02:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
For the record, let me say that I am in favor of deleting this article. Should the AfD fail, I would like to recommend a massive rewrite of the entire article, a complete overhaul, beginning with the section that lists everyone involved with the project. Isopropyl 21:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I am questioning the addition of every work ever published by this group. Remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Consider parallels at SCO-Linux; there is no need to list every contribution of a particular group to a debate. Isopropyl 23:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree that posting links the news stories that mention st911, like Paul Craig Robert's story in Counterpunch (Feb 6th), doesn't really count as a work of the Scholars group. Bov 23:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding a list of content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia.
Source: WP:NOT
I added some, since people complained they did nothing. Now, people complain that I added to much... -- Striver 00:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not crazy about the quotes. Many of them are just quotes from newspaper op-ed articles about this group.. Striver, it would be much better if you wrote this stuff in your own words rather than copying quotes from other places. Also the "impact" section is not appropriate, all it does is say how many Google hits the group gets. Rhobite 22:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
For those of us who are now just discovering this topic and have been closed out from putting in our two cents...
Someone wrote in the critism:"...but no papers asserting the opposite are posted, that a Boeing 757 did indeed hit the building as described by dozens of witnesses at the scene." I am not aware that dosens of people either a) saw a 757 hit or b) could if shown two pictures distinguish a 757 from 747 or a 777 let alone a drone flying at 400 km/h. I think this sentence should be removed because in itself is neither supported or sourced. Any comments... H0riz0n 02:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I am sick of people claiming that Jones's, Griffin's, and Fetzer's papers are peer reviewed. Peer review means a paper has been submitted and approved for publication in a reputable scientific journal. It has been approved by anonymous referees who are experts in the field. Nobody has ever cited a source which says that these papers are peer reviewed. Jones's paper is published in no journal and it uses a ton of nonacademic references. It's going to be published in a non-peer reviewed book, whose editor is an economist, not a scientist. Fetzer claims that his paper is being published in a book -- which he edits himself! Obviously it doesn't count as peer review to publish your own paper in a book you edit.
Unless someone cites sources describing how these papers were peer reviewed, please do not make this claim. Rhobite 15:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The real disservice is that anyone would claim that they know controlled demolition happened or that there was a deliberate coverup or any of the rest of this zaniness. It is a real slap in the face to all those people that died on 9/11 and a total disservice to science in general to expect anyone to believe that these events happened as the conspiracy theorists would like you to think...not one shred of their opinions has any proof of anything that would give credence to this nonsense. Profiteering at the expense of the dead with this stuff is rather sickening.-- MONGO 08:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
>>>"or that there was a deliberate coverup"
Are you serious? Even the FBI admits they knew years in advance that these attacks were being planned, but Condi Rice covered that up by saying they had no idea -- can we say, 'cover-up?' There are many levels of deliberate cover-up in the story of 9/11. Whether or not they extend to 'zaniness' is unknown, but to claim there were no 'cover-ups' when the many little ones are already in mainstream press seems pretty zany itself. This is not some great Administration that goes around pure as the driven snow - these are the guys who, today, tell photographer Brian Steidle, a former Marine captain, to stop showing his photos to anyone. Does Brian Steidle do a disservice to the world by exposing what's going on? The Bush Admin thinks he does. 'Cover-up' is their middle name. The only ones profiteering off 9/11 are the defense, oil and insurance industries among other friends of the Bush Admin. Bov 19:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Mongo: Please do not understand my previous statement to be a threat. I am simply operating on my understanding of Wikipedia policy/procedure. My understanding is that when an editor refuses to comply with policies set forth by the community, and refuses to reform his or her behavior, other editors have the responsibility to request compliance, and, if such requests are met with disdain (and no improvement in the behavior), to then proceed to RfC. I explained earlier that your edit summary ("must be smoking crack") that seemingly denigrates other editors is a personal attack and a breach of civility. Additionally, your assertion that "only fools would believe that there was a deliberate government coverup, or even that the government was negligent in regards to 9/11" is uncivil, is a personal atack ( WP:NPA) against editors who are espousing the conspiracy view (their own advocacy activities here are in violation of WP:NPOV as well). Now, it may offend you that some would suggest that the government was less than upright in its handling of 9/11, but Wikipedia is not censored. No view, no matter how ridiculous you personally may find it, is rightfully subjected to ridicule. If the community decides that a topic is notable enough for inclusion in the encyclopedia, all editors should do their best to contribute in a constructive manner, allowing our readers to peruse the available notable, verifiable sources, and come to their own conclusion. Now, I am skeptical of the claims made by folks referred to in this article. To answer you question, no, I am not personally a "Scholar for 9/11 Truth." In fact, I personally think that most such folks are pretty crazy, or at least jumping to some unwarranted conclusions. Does that mean that it is okay to lambast them and editors who agree with them? No. The community has established parameters for including and excluding information in articles. Let's play by the rules. Dick Clark 19:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I rather have Dick Clark calling me crazy than MONGO calling me "a nice guy". Any day. -- Striver 00:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, i said "fuck you", but i dont rehash cheap shots ad inf.-- Striver 05:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am sick of people citing the non-peer-reviewed NIST, FEMA, and 9-11 commission reports as reliable sources. The 9-11 commission report, for example, claims that the core of each twin tower was "a hollow steel shaft". Resorting to such a huge lie on such a critical matter renders it highly questionable in general. The FEMA and NIST reports candidly admit that they didn't even study the collapse of the towers, only events leading up to the collapses.
At least the scholars of 9-11 truth are inviting all theories, and demanding all the evidence. That right there is more than the government can claim.
71.128.166.192 04:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This "Mongo" is an admin for Wikipedia? Wow, that proves my suspicions about the credibility of this service. Here we have a Wiki staff member pushing his subjective views on 9/11 and resorting to childish defensive behaviour just so he can defend the official government propaganda. All this "Mongo" can do is accuse everyone who questions the official story as being "unpatriotic" and a "bush-hater". If this is the kind of juvenile tendencies the Wikipedia staff members promote, then Wikipedia's credibility cannot be taken seriously. This "Mongo" is not even an expert in physics, mechanical engineering and such and here he has the nerve to attack the expert analysis of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth.
This "Mongo" has violated his admin privileges in the most blatant manner. He is nothing more than a typical pro-government story supporter and that is - he responds with the same immature rubbish of repetitive denials (seen throughout the web) in order to promote his own political viewpoints. The sad thing is, since he is a Wiki admin, any criticism that may be directed towards his childish behaviour is well within his power to edit and censor. I would not be surprised that he would abuse his administrative powers in order to censor anything that may identify the personal attacks and insults in his posts. "Mongo" is a direct slap in the face of the Wikipedia's reputation to maintain a public venue for neutral discussion and information.
To anyone who still blindly holds on to the official government propaganda, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH before accusing others of being "unpatriotic". And please don't ever dare to call any of us who question the official story as a group that spits on the face of the 9/11 victims and their families. The FACT is, is that even 9/11 families have already questioned the official story and have persistently called for a new and complete 9/11 investigation. Read the sources below before you pro-government story supporters resort to such cowardly name-calling:
Respected Leaders and Families Launch 9/11 Truth Statement Demanding Deeper Investigation into the Events of 9/11:
Real patriots question their own government and don't allow themselves to blindly follow a potentially tyrannical authority.
Archival McTannith 09:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
ST911 is a group of researchers -- if we link to every external site by or about each of these researchers we will be linking to hundreds of websites. We already have a page specifically for Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11, where researchers can each have links to their own page and information. This page is about the group, not each of the individuals within the group, which is what Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 is about. Steven E. Jones and Morgan Reynolds each have their own pages already. Bov 00:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I provided an expanded review of the society's positions that was neutral as a description of the society's positions. That, I thought, was part of the idea of Wikipedia. I have noticed persons who are acutely biased against Scholars exerting influence on this board. Now that I understand how Wikipedia operates, I will ask anyone who ever places confidence in any of your articles, "But how do you know they are true?" Because this case demonstrates in a vivid fashion that your entries can be warped and biased beyond recognition. I founded the society, yet you do not even accept my date for its founding or the number of its members! I conclude, based on this experience, that Wikipedia is a massive fraud and deception. Disgusting and unreal!
James H. Fetzer Founder and Co-chair Scholars for 9/11 Truth
No, you presented your argument. "X is true because of Y and Z" is different from "SF911T believes X is true", as the former purports that Y and Z are true when they are in fact your beliefs. You have your own webspace to lay out your complete argument, which is fine. It's not wikipedia's responsibility to repeat that information, especially as it's already mentioned on our 9/11 conspiracy theories page and is by far not unique to your group. What we're trying to do is represent your unique views. You are welcome to make factual corrections (as another editor has put back in), but this is not a place for you to air out your views. -- Mmx1 11:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
>> "I conclude, based on this experience, that Wikipedia is a massive fraud and deception. Disgusting and unreal!" This type of emotional and irrational response is typical of those asserting that commercial jets didn't hit buildings on 9/11, but that instead, something else did - missiles or military craft or something. The website of this group promotes this idea exclusively, even though a number of members do not support such claims. -
Concerned citizen and wikipedia user:Wow. Some of you guys are admins?! jeez. And you are saying things haven't been covered up?! The way you are automatically insulting the character of the messenger, without debating the evidence is appauling.
I have feeling that Wikipedia is a manipulated organization that covertly adheres to governmental authority in some way shape or form. The admins of this site are now showing their true colours. They are a bunch of self-righteous defensive individuals who can't face the scientific facts being constantly presented to the public. Wikipedia should not be trusted because it's starting to show all the characterstics of a pro-government story whitewashing tool. Read more about the origins of Wikipedia here:
Thank you for deleting all the new links in the media section, it again confirms the bias overhere. Apparently Wikipedia shills in control don't like testimony of NIST whistleblowers or the recently televised panel from C-Span. Shame on you!
To explain the revisions, wikipedia abides by a strict policy of Neutral Point of View. We are not here to air our your group's theories, only to describe your group. This is not the place to explain what lead to your views, only the views your groups hold. Also, keep in mind WP:AUTO. It is considered bad form to write about yourself or groups that you are personally involved in. Your factual corrections are appreciated (I presume the individual you removed is no longer with SF911T), but please refrain from inserting commentary written from your POV. The article is supposed to describe the group neutrally, not serve as a showcase for its arguments-- Mmx1 19:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
In that light Mmx1, perhaps you would delete the blatant advertising and POV in the "Criticism of Scholars For 9/11 Truth" Section? I did a fine job with npov and you put it back to those horrible sites and references? These are the things that this organization does not want a part of. Each of those links is to an advertising site that has little to do with the organization. Why not keep this as a wikified page instead of a propaganda page. I see you liked that I pulled the superfluous medals from the honorable. I think I missed a couple more. You going to pull them or me? Tell me how to comment the edits so it shows what I am doing on an edit page? 911 Eyewitness 20:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
First, I did not revert your page (you can see by clicking on "history" tab above), but I agree with it. That section describes mostly in-fighting between the conspiracy theorists; you'd do better to ask another conspriacty theorist about it. It is mostly NPOV by my judgement and looks to attribute beliefs to groups. As for edits, below the edit box there's a place to put edit summary. I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to medals. -- Mmx1 00:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
There are major problems in POV with this article in the section on criticism. There are also major problems that the "Scholars for 911 Truth" are going with anything other than controlled demolition in NYC. Study by members and others in areas outside that continue but it is not conclusive enough for their official endorsement. For you to have this absolute fabrication is merely advertising for the sites that they link to. I am going to delete that section if a rewrite is not done. 911 Eyewitness 19:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It is still too early to bring this article back to AfD, since any such effort will be clouded by editors who would see such an action (rightly) as disruptive and thus vote without reference to the merit, or lack of merit, of the article. However, the serious questions raised in both AfDs remain, and they are compounded by the important isues raised above. This is a strong candidate and deletion and I suggest that this be brought back to AfD in June or July. Eusebeus 10:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
As a reflective exercise, I recommend the disputants in this debate juxtapose the "Scholars for..." page with the "PNAC" page [6]. In doing so myself, I've noticed two communities that have the scent of diametric opposition to each other, even though they address what appear to be entirely different topical matters. Despite their obvious differences, making the content of the "Scholars ..." page isomorphic in structure and organization with the "PNAC" page may resolve the underlying disputes about bias on the "Scholars..." page. It has been my humble observation that absolute rules are often bent toward particular ends, meaning Wikipedia's NPOV policies which make for good theoretical guidelines appear to be falling short in bringing about actual consensus of opinion on this particular matter. Relative isomorphism, which in this case implicitly accepts the pervasive nature of biased reporting, would likely provide the most even-handed compromise.--Zegna 22:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I should note that the PNAC is a frequent target for people who think they pull the strings in the White House, and the article was probably started up by people attacking the group. This, on the other hand, has been written in order to sell SF911T. I think the current PNAC layout is pretty clean and NPOV and should be a model for this page. Uh, what's relative isomorphism? -- Mmx1 19:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Relative isomorphism is a phrase I coined to refer to the method of comparison I described above (I'm unaware of how it might be used in other contexts). I'm using it here to describe a means of representing two seemingly different systems of belief, the PNAC movement and the 9/11 Truth movement. While these movements have different causes, they both represent movements in the social and political domains, or at least so they have been cast as such in the debates surrounding their existence. When such debates arise, naturally advocates and critics will have relative viewpoints that skew the favor of "neutrality" to their side. Hence, guidelines for neutrality can slide into a gray area as different sides manipulate the language of neutrality to imply their right to their positions (a process which I personally feel is normal and necessary to these kinds of movements). By requiring all sides to adhere to a particular homologous structure which supercedes language, which I'm calling isomorphism, you enable their relative biases to be diametrically juxtaposed. Because PNAC's page has been apparently accepted by the Wikipedia community, despite whoever may have actually initiated this page, the 9/11 Truth page should probably be structured in a similar manner. Thus, any potential biases on the 9/11 Truth page can be symmetrically aligned with potential biases on the PNAC page (or any other comparable page that's widely accepted).--Zegna 22:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
It's about an event that this group has announced and is sponsoring, but we don't have enough information about it to require splitting from this article. It should be turned into a section in here. Night Gyr 18:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I merged it in TruthSeeker1234 15:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I am very curious about the charges of 'junk science' which MONGO and others have been leveled at Jones. I have never heard anyone specifically state how and where Jones has deviated from the scientific method, or where he has gone wrong. Has anyone done a formal critique of Jones' paper? Note that when skeptics accuse the government of 'junk science', they back it up with rigorous analysis, such as this - [7]
MONGO? Mmx? Anyone?
TruthSeeker1234 15:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
If you claim that such conspiracy theories are "junk science", you should explain in detail as to why that is the case and you must use legitimate scientific arguements and scientific sources to support your opinions. If you do not do this you would be proving nothing but your arrogance and ignorance on the subject matter at hand. Archival McTannith 09:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but why is it junk Morton devonshire? Something must have led you to this opinion. I find his paper persuasive, and very scientific, but if you can just point out where he is wrong, perhaps I'll start believing the official story again. That would be a relief. TruthSeeker1234 23:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
That's an answer to a different question, Morton. Jones does not claim to be a structural engineer. His paper is on the physics involved. Your assumption that only a structural engineer is qualifed to comment on the collapse of the WTC is wrong. What would a structural engineer know about explosives, or molten metal, or conservation of angular momentum, for instance? Getting to the full truth about these unprecedented events will require input from various specialties.
Now, the question I asked was NOT "Is Jones a reputable source for WP?". The questions are, "Where has Jones gone wrong in his physics?" and "How did Jones deviate from the scientific method" and "How do you come to the conclusion that his is junk science?" TruthSeeker1234 03:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Assume that the "conspiracy-theorists" are right with what they say. Now think about the potential consequences: You would effectively have a US-government guilty of mass-murder, high treason and probably a list of other offences as long as my arm. If this were to be proven, the said government would not just face impeachment, but in all certainty some far more serious consequences. In addition, i think you could safely say that no one in this world would touch the United States of America with a barge-pole: i leave the political implications of that to your imagination. Given those circumstances, you could pose the question "if it was like that- would people really want to know?", and more specifically you could ask "would the scientific and political establishment want to know?" That may not explain wether or not Prof. Jones' theories are junk-science. What it *does* mean is that the possibility that the opinions of some of his colleagues may be tainted is just as real as the possibility that his expertise is worthless. 86.41.210.214 16:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The section offers no reasonthis student was notable - though it clearly attempts to imply- but not say- he was killed for his membership (i clearly am deeply skeptical, why kill a lowly student instead of say a prof?). I think this section merits deletion unless someone can write a NPOV explanation of why this kid is notable. 216.207.246.230 20:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The placement of a {{prod}} is inappropriate. WP:PROD states {{prod}} should only be used for "uncontroversial deletion candidates." Since this article recently went through an AfD without consensus, it can't qualify as an "uncontroversial deletion candidate." I'm removing the tag. -- mtz206 ( talk) 00:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Most of what this article said was unverifiable by Wikipedia standards (See WP:RS), relying completely on the Scholars website for support. Morton devonshire 00:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
People that care about this article might be able to find something from news coverage worth adding: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=%22Scholars+for+9%2F11+Truth%22&btnG=Search+News Some comparison of the article in its current state to its longer version http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scholars_for_9/11_Truth&oldid=54197907 may be warranted as well. I'm not sure why the links to the WP pages for some of the groups' members were deleted, for example. Шизомби 03:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
This link, titled 'Wikipedia: What it Doesn't Say', was removed from the article, and rightly so, but it may be of some interest to editors. I'll leave it here so it doesn't go even though we're removing it from the article. Cheers, THE KING 19:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The following text currently appears in the intro (above the TOC) of the article:
I am of the opinion that these questions are worded in such a way as to cast discredit upon tradional scientific views about 9/11. For example, 'where is the science...' hardly belongs in an encyclopedia, and clearly suggests pov. If you can tell from the text which side of an argument one stands on, it could be argued that the text is pov. However this is so blatant that it needs rewording, and i suggest moving to another section in the article. Possibly something to the effect of 'disagreements with the scientific community' What are other editors thoughts? THE KING 19:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
What caused building #7 of the World Trade Center to collapse? How did all three WTC buildings collapsed close to the speed of gravity? What is the source of molten metal which was observed pooling in the rubble?
I'm not sure a fact tag is needed for Andreas von Bülow's membership. I think it's sufficient under the section of WP:V I quoted above in Talk:Scholars for 9/11 Truth#Unverifiable according to Wikipedia standards that the organization claims him as a member. Given the plausibility that he would be a member of such an organization in light of what we know about Bülow, and the absence of any denial that he is a member by anyone (except some wikipedians), I think WP:V has to have its way. Шизомби 20:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
"As of February 2006, the website was pointing readers to sources which some members of the 9/11 Truth movement say lack credibility and scientific merit, are packaged as entertainment and distort evidence in favor of their claims. citation needed A related concern has been that the website effectively ignores the websites and original work by some of the most respected long-term researchers of the 9/11 attacks citation needed, such as CooperativeResearch.org, FromTheWilderness.com, 911Truth.org, OilEmpire.us, 911Research.WTC7.net, Ratical.org/ratville/CAH/, and WTCEO.org. In contrast to the scholars group, most of these researchers believe that commercial jets with real passengers did hit the buildings on September 11 2001."
I can find any support for this statement on there website, so I have moved it to this talkpage: Where do they state that they belive there wasn't planes going in to the towers? Actually the whole critique section is based on the groups alleged belief that no planes hit the buildings, but I cant find support for that at all on there website. Please enligthen me or rewrite. EyesAllMine 06:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
No it was Bov who wrote the critique section first: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scholars_for_9%2F11_Truth&diff=42122495&oldid=41989835 And the whole critique seems to emerge from one mans article namely Green, why does it get so much space in the article? EyesAllMine 13:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I still fail to see where the website promotes debunked theories. Could you point me to it? EyesAllMine 14:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Much better. Still this part is a bit odd: "only one side of a serious and divisive debate within the 9/11 movement is presented for contemplation. Similarly, papers asserting that a plane did not hit the Pentagon are posted on the front page, but no papers asserting the opposite are posted, that a Boeing 757 did indeed hit the building as described by dozens of witnesses at the scene." as this is the official explanantion. They dont provide papers that fire made the two towers and building seven collaps, either. They are examining the accounts, and therefore the critique is misguided in my oppinion. And who has published this criticism anyway? is it just Bov? EyesAllMine 10:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a mighty long argument - and it rambles, frankly. The basic issue is, should this article (Scholars for Truth) be deleted. I believe it should not because nothing in the article (as opposed to statements the authors may have made elsewhere) is inaccurate: Scholars here are not maintaining anything but that the information so far made public is woefully insufficient for a matter of this gravity. They have banded together to demand a more thorough investigation than the public have to now been treated to; and they demand this for very good reasons that there are a dozen or more very very weak links in the official explanation of what happened. So the article should stand.
The vast, vast majority of their ideals have been debunked time and time again with logical reasoned thinking. This madness has to stop, there are immutable facts that are being distorted and twisted by this collection of philosphers and creative arts\drama "scholars", out of their entire "Member List" aprox 4 of the entire list of over 200 names have ANY relation to structural engineering. This should be deleted, as pure hokum. Macktheknifeau 22:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a notable group. If you think their work is "hokum", start a blog. SkeenaR 09:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
For one, the members often call themselves experts, eg "EXPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX", despite the fact many of them are no-where near "experts" on the field of structural engineering. Steven Jones - Only "published" work on the matter is in a Marxist Economic Journal. Out of the 76 "members", the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, Litrature\English and Psychology with 5 each, Theolgy 4, Humanitys 3. They have 5 physicists (although 1 is actually a lab technician). Engineers? 2. 1 of which is the Jupiter Bomb, Alien letter toting outcast Petit and the other's work has focused mainly on the stresses of dentistry.
These guys are really in the position to talk about how the various buildings collapsed. The entire group is comprised of psudeo-experts. Macktheknifeau 09:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
You are definitely entitled to your own opinion as long as you keep it on the discussion page. SkeenaR 17:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
For those interested, an RfC has been filed regarding User:Zer0faults at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults. Any comments would be appreciated. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
this is a joke. James Fetzer is the 9/11 truth movement. You deny him the right to update it. If you had a bio of me and it was wrong, and I could not update it then wikipedia has a real problem. The problem with wikipedia is it thinks it can make a difference throwing up the same disinformation that is distributed on a daily basis by main stream media or the us government.
James Fetzer Video explaining how wikipedia denied him access to update his 9/11 truth movment.
http://www.blogtext.org/andy/article/5867.html
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 166.61.194.2 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, July 17, 2006 (UTC)
Would one way of dealing with this dispute be to add the fact the Scholars for 9/11 truth is critical of wikipedia to the summary of the organisation? They feature this fairly prominently on their website ( http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesWikipedia.html) and it could be a neat way of making clear to readers the dispute about this page? - jon_m (Talk) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.127.18.193 ( talk • contribs) 19:18, July 17, 2006 (UTC)
The real joke is that anybody takes James Fetzer seriously. There is no "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" -- it's just Fetzer in his den with a computer and internet access.
Morton Devonshire
Yo
01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Well - i just put the critique back in then - there doesn't seem to be any valid argument to leave it out. EyesAllMine 07:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not webspace. The group's founder can write whatever he wants on his own webspace but his view is not appropriate for this article under WP:AUTO as it is not a neutral description. -- Mmx1 04:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying that all of his edits around 06:23, 07 August 2006 are necessarily bad. The last one was quite definitely properly reverted by Mmx1, but they're all related, so I reverted all of them. A criticism section is quite appropriate, if properly sourced, but individual criticism's must be properly sourced. (It should be noted that I don't believe any of them are scholars in an appropriate field, but I'm going to try not to let that get into my edits.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Things REALLY need to be properly cited with this section. rootology ( T) 06:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Some additional cleanup as of this version. The "300 people" is spin vs. this group--they can cite themselves to say who is included, and they state they have scholars, faculty, and students. "300 people, include..." is a fair way to do this. Also, they do question the government account per sourced WP:RS stuff in the Overview. Both of these need to stay to maintain balance. rootology ( T) 07:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to remove this "numerical breakdown" because it appears to be made up out of whole cloth by someone. A twenty second look at the Who Are We part of their site reveals at least 30+ engineers, not "two". rootology ( T) 16:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is much cleaner now and a lot closer at least to being NPOV. All it needs is proper citation for the Conclusion and Criticism sections. rootology ( T) 20:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I will be offline and have to go right now, but yeah, the POV chunks that mxmx1 deleted were accurate. Could someone readd the removed criticism section? Yes it's unsourced but I wasn't even planning on removing unsourced bits myself for several weeks (if at all) to give people time to collect citations. rootology ( T) 02:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that unfinished work should remain "ONLINE" until someone else does the work for you? That is complete B.S. I could put up Vandalism and say "Please someone take the time to find sources for each of the questionable items I posted but no one else edit them until some random nice person, at some random time does this good deed for me!"
What are you like 12 years old? You don't get to post incomplete work and beg others to leave it alone until you or someone can finish doing the grunt work. Francespeabody 02:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
You started it with your "bullshit. This is not Fetzer's webspace and verbatim reproduction of his POV will not be allowed" manifesto/response to why you keep reverting relevant information.
You are not Neutral and clearly your commitment to "United States Marine Corps" (Articles I've created) colors your opinion and exposes your motives for censorship but none of that is relevant to the idea that the article is about the group itself and not about "What others think" about the group. As a contributor, I have found the most adequate definition of the group and included it.
You are acting silly. It is like if you don't agree with a groups message you think it is ok to redefine the group for anyone looking for information about who the group is. I don't like the KKK but I am not editing the Wiki article to make it more "Black Friendly" or "Negative" about them. I would even cite their founder as a definitive source for who they are because that is the "OBJECTIVE" thing to do.
I know you drank the kool aid and are all to willing to blindly accept whatever anyone with a uniform tells you so listen closely... "Semper Fi yourself into some common sense." Francespeabody 02:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
First, you excuse your attack and are critical of my comments? "Bullshit vs. 12 year old" is unequal in that your remark suggests the entire thought process of another person is to be regarded as equal to that which a male cow excretes, where as the other remark suggests the thoughts as having come from someone much younger. Is that Harsh or something more?
Second, I cited the indiviual and suggested that you re-read the article for proof but since you are too lazy here is the opening sentense. "According to the founding member James H, Fetzer..." article overview here.
Third, that the KKK thinks blacks inferior is a fact of the group and is stated in the opening sentence of their Wiki. "Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is the name of a number of past and present fraternal organizations in the United States that have advocated white supremacy". White Supremacy implies blacks and any non-white has lesser intellect and are less human and I have not sought to change or soften that definition.
You seem to forget that this is what they are and what they beleive. It does not matter if I take offense or disagree because it is the truth. Likewise, the group "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" was founded by James H, Fetzer and I cited his definition of the organization in the overview. You have no legitimate basis for removing that regardless of your opinion. Are you rushing over to the Klan article right now to make it less offensive to blacks? OH, why not? Because you know full well that it represents the truth and your thoughts on the matter are not relevant? Ok, now you get it. If you revert this article again, I will first go to the KKK site and look for similar "cleansing" and if you have not done it, I will come back here and revert this back to the truth. BTW, I know you are not a Marine, I was being sarcastic. If you were a Marine, your sorry but would be off in Iraq defending James H, Fetzer's right to say what he wants... and bringing your flavor of democracy to a group of people who are clearly begging for it. In between the rapes, torture and murder I do think democracy is being shown to them by the few Marines who can keep the dicks in their pants. Francespeabody 03:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
This here is the version of the article I rv'd back to, my last edit from yesterday that had sat peacefully until this began tonight. rootology ( T) 04:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Just so everyone knows where people are coming from. I don't have the patience to involve myself in the minutiae of who said what, particularly in the face of wholesale edits such as that exhibited here - and I applaud Rootology's hard work in bringing this to NPOV. Moreover, I am not particularly interested in which way this article slants and am willing to let the interested parties debate it among themselves. However, as an encyclopedia writer, I am aware that there are strict boundaries on what is acceptable and will enforce those boundaries against POV-pushing by involved parties that stamps all over the compromised, NPOV content that many people have worked hard to tweak and implement. The policy of WP:NPOV expressly forbids presenting a single POV masquerading as content, and replacing the body of this article with 13 paragraphs as a "citation" is a lie. A footnote is a citation. A 13-paragraph essay is plagarism.-- Mmx1 04:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"Scholars for 9/11 Truth" should at best be merged with the primary 9/11 conspiracy theories. Too many liberties are being taken in the this article to render it verifiable.-- Scribner 18:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
As I've said before, the "External link" at Wikipedia: What it Doesn't Say by James H. Fetzer should be included ONLY in a section of the article, rather than as a self-reference. As a stand-alone external link, it is an inappropriate self reference. A possible draft sentence to be included in the body of the article.
The founder of Scholars objects to the content of this article in Wikipedia: What it Doesn't Say by James H. Fetzer.
— Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Uh, this would be amazingly bad, and I advise you to not do any such thing based on criticism sections being removed. I was one of the people that removed many of the links, as they simply, flat out, did not meet WP:EL or WP:RS. A mass reversion of that magnitude/age would be a tremendously bad idea and would be reverted immediately if it was an RV. You can bring back an old version of the Criticism section, as long as any sources meet WP:RS and WP:V. Unfortunately, if the criticisms section cannot be sourced, it cannot exist forever--when I removed a link there myself I left a {{fact}} tag, with the attention of removing unsourced after several weeks, to give people time to source them. Unfortunately, they weren't, and others began removing them from the criticisms section. This is all valid and per policy, for something to be included the burden of proof is on the inclusionists. NPOV doesn't play a role--NPOV doesn't mean there has to be a criticism section if it can't be sourced. rootology ( T) 16:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Thats cool, so you can deleted Problem-reaction-solution citing RS, even thogh it is not needed to primary quotes, but you can ignore RS when critisizing s9/11t? Yeah, just as i thought...-- Striver 18:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
It's... ugly. Maybe just stick with the easier to work with list? rootology ( T) 18:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I added the {{ disputed-section}} tag, because I don't think anything other than the first sentence is directly supported by the sources, and thus the section may consititute WP:OR. (I may fix the tag, later.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[12] -- Striver 17:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51761 Feds challenge 9/11 conspiracies] -- Striver 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted Mablespam's 'updating' of the theory section - this wasn't referenced, and the language wasn't NPOV imo. If the scholars have come out with new research, though, it would be great to include this - but in a more npov tone, and with references. I may look at their website to see what the latest is at some point, but lack the time at the moment.
I've also put an updated criticism section back in the article. So far as I can tell, this is now not out of date; if any info in this is outdated, it would be good if someone could specify what this is. At any rate, whether or not you agree with the scholars, they are a controversial group so I think the article needs a criticism section Jon m
I know this has been nominated for deletion several times before. However, the organisation has now collapsed - most of the article refers to the defunct s911t The organisation might just about have been notable when it was in existence - for what it potentially could achieve in the future - but it no longer exists. We have a fairly long article, with POV problems (the scholars broke up in part because of disagreement re. what 'their' theory was, for example), for an organisation that from what I can tell never really achieved much; the organisation also no longer exists. Any objections if I nominate this for deletion again? Jon m 00:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
No, no, and no. If you owned a publishing company and had an entry about your publishing company in your encyclopedia that gave you, the publisher, glowing praise would that be ethical? No it would not. Is it kosher? No it is not. Would I write an article about myself? No I would not.
Who created this entry and why? If the group needs a web-page to announce to the world that they exist I suggest Yahoo/Geocities. Not here! Wjbean
How do you fix that tag? SkeenaR 04:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Got it.
I removed the merge tag because I reconsidered whether the proposal was the right thing to do and came to the conclusion that it is not. If anyone else has an opinion they would like to share please do so. We need to make this article over as well. SkeenaR 02:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
One needs to understand that this movement isn’t about promoting any conspiracy theory. They aren’t expounding any; all they are doing is questioning the science behind the official explanation. This needs to be made clear. H0riz0n 02:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
For the record, let me say that I am in favor of deleting this article. Should the AfD fail, I would like to recommend a massive rewrite of the entire article, a complete overhaul, beginning with the section that lists everyone involved with the project. Isopropyl 21:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I am questioning the addition of every work ever published by this group. Remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Consider parallels at SCO-Linux; there is no need to list every contribution of a particular group to a debate. Isopropyl 23:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree that posting links the news stories that mention st911, like Paul Craig Robert's story in Counterpunch (Feb 6th), doesn't really count as a work of the Scholars group. Bov 23:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding a list of content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia.
Source: WP:NOT
I added some, since people complained they did nothing. Now, people complain that I added to much... -- Striver 00:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not crazy about the quotes. Many of them are just quotes from newspaper op-ed articles about this group.. Striver, it would be much better if you wrote this stuff in your own words rather than copying quotes from other places. Also the "impact" section is not appropriate, all it does is say how many Google hits the group gets. Rhobite 22:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
For those of us who are now just discovering this topic and have been closed out from putting in our two cents...
Someone wrote in the critism:"...but no papers asserting the opposite are posted, that a Boeing 757 did indeed hit the building as described by dozens of witnesses at the scene." I am not aware that dosens of people either a) saw a 757 hit or b) could if shown two pictures distinguish a 757 from 747 or a 777 let alone a drone flying at 400 km/h. I think this sentence should be removed because in itself is neither supported or sourced. Any comments... H0riz0n 02:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I am sick of people claiming that Jones's, Griffin's, and Fetzer's papers are peer reviewed. Peer review means a paper has been submitted and approved for publication in a reputable scientific journal. It has been approved by anonymous referees who are experts in the field. Nobody has ever cited a source which says that these papers are peer reviewed. Jones's paper is published in no journal and it uses a ton of nonacademic references. It's going to be published in a non-peer reviewed book, whose editor is an economist, not a scientist. Fetzer claims that his paper is being published in a book -- which he edits himself! Obviously it doesn't count as peer review to publish your own paper in a book you edit.
Unless someone cites sources describing how these papers were peer reviewed, please do not make this claim. Rhobite 15:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The real disservice is that anyone would claim that they know controlled demolition happened or that there was a deliberate coverup or any of the rest of this zaniness. It is a real slap in the face to all those people that died on 9/11 and a total disservice to science in general to expect anyone to believe that these events happened as the conspiracy theorists would like you to think...not one shred of their opinions has any proof of anything that would give credence to this nonsense. Profiteering at the expense of the dead with this stuff is rather sickening.-- MONGO 08:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
>>>"or that there was a deliberate coverup"
Are you serious? Even the FBI admits they knew years in advance that these attacks were being planned, but Condi Rice covered that up by saying they had no idea -- can we say, 'cover-up?' There are many levels of deliberate cover-up in the story of 9/11. Whether or not they extend to 'zaniness' is unknown, but to claim there were no 'cover-ups' when the many little ones are already in mainstream press seems pretty zany itself. This is not some great Administration that goes around pure as the driven snow - these are the guys who, today, tell photographer Brian Steidle, a former Marine captain, to stop showing his photos to anyone. Does Brian Steidle do a disservice to the world by exposing what's going on? The Bush Admin thinks he does. 'Cover-up' is their middle name. The only ones profiteering off 9/11 are the defense, oil and insurance industries among other friends of the Bush Admin. Bov 19:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Mongo: Please do not understand my previous statement to be a threat. I am simply operating on my understanding of Wikipedia policy/procedure. My understanding is that when an editor refuses to comply with policies set forth by the community, and refuses to reform his or her behavior, other editors have the responsibility to request compliance, and, if such requests are met with disdain (and no improvement in the behavior), to then proceed to RfC. I explained earlier that your edit summary ("must be smoking crack") that seemingly denigrates other editors is a personal attack and a breach of civility. Additionally, your assertion that "only fools would believe that there was a deliberate government coverup, or even that the government was negligent in regards to 9/11" is uncivil, is a personal atack ( WP:NPA) against editors who are espousing the conspiracy view (their own advocacy activities here are in violation of WP:NPOV as well). Now, it may offend you that some would suggest that the government was less than upright in its handling of 9/11, but Wikipedia is not censored. No view, no matter how ridiculous you personally may find it, is rightfully subjected to ridicule. If the community decides that a topic is notable enough for inclusion in the encyclopedia, all editors should do their best to contribute in a constructive manner, allowing our readers to peruse the available notable, verifiable sources, and come to their own conclusion. Now, I am skeptical of the claims made by folks referred to in this article. To answer you question, no, I am not personally a "Scholar for 9/11 Truth." In fact, I personally think that most such folks are pretty crazy, or at least jumping to some unwarranted conclusions. Does that mean that it is okay to lambast them and editors who agree with them? No. The community has established parameters for including and excluding information in articles. Let's play by the rules. Dick Clark 19:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I rather have Dick Clark calling me crazy than MONGO calling me "a nice guy". Any day. -- Striver 00:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, i said "fuck you", but i dont rehash cheap shots ad inf.-- Striver 05:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am sick of people citing the non-peer-reviewed NIST, FEMA, and 9-11 commission reports as reliable sources. The 9-11 commission report, for example, claims that the core of each twin tower was "a hollow steel shaft". Resorting to such a huge lie on such a critical matter renders it highly questionable in general. The FEMA and NIST reports candidly admit that they didn't even study the collapse of the towers, only events leading up to the collapses.
At least the scholars of 9-11 truth are inviting all theories, and demanding all the evidence. That right there is more than the government can claim.
71.128.166.192 04:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This "Mongo" is an admin for Wikipedia? Wow, that proves my suspicions about the credibility of this service. Here we have a Wiki staff member pushing his subjective views on 9/11 and resorting to childish defensive behaviour just so he can defend the official government propaganda. All this "Mongo" can do is accuse everyone who questions the official story as being "unpatriotic" and a "bush-hater". If this is the kind of juvenile tendencies the Wikipedia staff members promote, then Wikipedia's credibility cannot be taken seriously. This "Mongo" is not even an expert in physics, mechanical engineering and such and here he has the nerve to attack the expert analysis of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth.
This "Mongo" has violated his admin privileges in the most blatant manner. He is nothing more than a typical pro-government story supporter and that is - he responds with the same immature rubbish of repetitive denials (seen throughout the web) in order to promote his own political viewpoints. The sad thing is, since he is a Wiki admin, any criticism that may be directed towards his childish behaviour is well within his power to edit and censor. I would not be surprised that he would abuse his administrative powers in order to censor anything that may identify the personal attacks and insults in his posts. "Mongo" is a direct slap in the face of the Wikipedia's reputation to maintain a public venue for neutral discussion and information.
To anyone who still blindly holds on to the official government propaganda, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH before accusing others of being "unpatriotic". And please don't ever dare to call any of us who question the official story as a group that spits on the face of the 9/11 victims and their families. The FACT is, is that even 9/11 families have already questioned the official story and have persistently called for a new and complete 9/11 investigation. Read the sources below before you pro-government story supporters resort to such cowardly name-calling:
Respected Leaders and Families Launch 9/11 Truth Statement Demanding Deeper Investigation into the Events of 9/11:
Real patriots question their own government and don't allow themselves to blindly follow a potentially tyrannical authority.
Archival McTannith 09:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
ST911 is a group of researchers -- if we link to every external site by or about each of these researchers we will be linking to hundreds of websites. We already have a page specifically for Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11, where researchers can each have links to their own page and information. This page is about the group, not each of the individuals within the group, which is what Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 is about. Steven E. Jones and Morgan Reynolds each have their own pages already. Bov 00:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I provided an expanded review of the society's positions that was neutral as a description of the society's positions. That, I thought, was part of the idea of Wikipedia. I have noticed persons who are acutely biased against Scholars exerting influence on this board. Now that I understand how Wikipedia operates, I will ask anyone who ever places confidence in any of your articles, "But how do you know they are true?" Because this case demonstrates in a vivid fashion that your entries can be warped and biased beyond recognition. I founded the society, yet you do not even accept my date for its founding or the number of its members! I conclude, based on this experience, that Wikipedia is a massive fraud and deception. Disgusting and unreal!
James H. Fetzer Founder and Co-chair Scholars for 9/11 Truth
No, you presented your argument. "X is true because of Y and Z" is different from "SF911T believes X is true", as the former purports that Y and Z are true when they are in fact your beliefs. You have your own webspace to lay out your complete argument, which is fine. It's not wikipedia's responsibility to repeat that information, especially as it's already mentioned on our 9/11 conspiracy theories page and is by far not unique to your group. What we're trying to do is represent your unique views. You are welcome to make factual corrections (as another editor has put back in), but this is not a place for you to air out your views. -- Mmx1 11:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
>> "I conclude, based on this experience, that Wikipedia is a massive fraud and deception. Disgusting and unreal!" This type of emotional and irrational response is typical of those asserting that commercial jets didn't hit buildings on 9/11, but that instead, something else did - missiles or military craft or something. The website of this group promotes this idea exclusively, even though a number of members do not support such claims. -
Concerned citizen and wikipedia user:Wow. Some of you guys are admins?! jeez. And you are saying things haven't been covered up?! The way you are automatically insulting the character of the messenger, without debating the evidence is appauling.
I have feeling that Wikipedia is a manipulated organization that covertly adheres to governmental authority in some way shape or form. The admins of this site are now showing their true colours. They are a bunch of self-righteous defensive individuals who can't face the scientific facts being constantly presented to the public. Wikipedia should not be trusted because it's starting to show all the characterstics of a pro-government story whitewashing tool. Read more about the origins of Wikipedia here:
Thank you for deleting all the new links in the media section, it again confirms the bias overhere. Apparently Wikipedia shills in control don't like testimony of NIST whistleblowers or the recently televised panel from C-Span. Shame on you!
To explain the revisions, wikipedia abides by a strict policy of Neutral Point of View. We are not here to air our your group's theories, only to describe your group. This is not the place to explain what lead to your views, only the views your groups hold. Also, keep in mind WP:AUTO. It is considered bad form to write about yourself or groups that you are personally involved in. Your factual corrections are appreciated (I presume the individual you removed is no longer with SF911T), but please refrain from inserting commentary written from your POV. The article is supposed to describe the group neutrally, not serve as a showcase for its arguments-- Mmx1 19:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
In that light Mmx1, perhaps you would delete the blatant advertising and POV in the "Criticism of Scholars For 9/11 Truth" Section? I did a fine job with npov and you put it back to those horrible sites and references? These are the things that this organization does not want a part of. Each of those links is to an advertising site that has little to do with the organization. Why not keep this as a wikified page instead of a propaganda page. I see you liked that I pulled the superfluous medals from the honorable. I think I missed a couple more. You going to pull them or me? Tell me how to comment the edits so it shows what I am doing on an edit page? 911 Eyewitness 20:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
First, I did not revert your page (you can see by clicking on "history" tab above), but I agree with it. That section describes mostly in-fighting between the conspiracy theorists; you'd do better to ask another conspriacty theorist about it. It is mostly NPOV by my judgement and looks to attribute beliefs to groups. As for edits, below the edit box there's a place to put edit summary. I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to medals. -- Mmx1 00:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
There are major problems in POV with this article in the section on criticism. There are also major problems that the "Scholars for 911 Truth" are going with anything other than controlled demolition in NYC. Study by members and others in areas outside that continue but it is not conclusive enough for their official endorsement. For you to have this absolute fabrication is merely advertising for the sites that they link to. I am going to delete that section if a rewrite is not done. 911 Eyewitness 19:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It is still too early to bring this article back to AfD, since any such effort will be clouded by editors who would see such an action (rightly) as disruptive and thus vote without reference to the merit, or lack of merit, of the article. However, the serious questions raised in both AfDs remain, and they are compounded by the important isues raised above. This is a strong candidate and deletion and I suggest that this be brought back to AfD in June or July. Eusebeus 10:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
As a reflective exercise, I recommend the disputants in this debate juxtapose the "Scholars for..." page with the "PNAC" page [6]. In doing so myself, I've noticed two communities that have the scent of diametric opposition to each other, even though they address what appear to be entirely different topical matters. Despite their obvious differences, making the content of the "Scholars ..." page isomorphic in structure and organization with the "PNAC" page may resolve the underlying disputes about bias on the "Scholars..." page. It has been my humble observation that absolute rules are often bent toward particular ends, meaning Wikipedia's NPOV policies which make for good theoretical guidelines appear to be falling short in bringing about actual consensus of opinion on this particular matter. Relative isomorphism, which in this case implicitly accepts the pervasive nature of biased reporting, would likely provide the most even-handed compromise.--Zegna 22:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I should note that the PNAC is a frequent target for people who think they pull the strings in the White House, and the article was probably started up by people attacking the group. This, on the other hand, has been written in order to sell SF911T. I think the current PNAC layout is pretty clean and NPOV and should be a model for this page. Uh, what's relative isomorphism? -- Mmx1 19:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Relative isomorphism is a phrase I coined to refer to the method of comparison I described above (I'm unaware of how it might be used in other contexts). I'm using it here to describe a means of representing two seemingly different systems of belief, the PNAC movement and the 9/11 Truth movement. While these movements have different causes, they both represent movements in the social and political domains, or at least so they have been cast as such in the debates surrounding their existence. When such debates arise, naturally advocates and critics will have relative viewpoints that skew the favor of "neutrality" to their side. Hence, guidelines for neutrality can slide into a gray area as different sides manipulate the language of neutrality to imply their right to their positions (a process which I personally feel is normal and necessary to these kinds of movements). By requiring all sides to adhere to a particular homologous structure which supercedes language, which I'm calling isomorphism, you enable their relative biases to be diametrically juxtaposed. Because PNAC's page has been apparently accepted by the Wikipedia community, despite whoever may have actually initiated this page, the 9/11 Truth page should probably be structured in a similar manner. Thus, any potential biases on the 9/11 Truth page can be symmetrically aligned with potential biases on the PNAC page (or any other comparable page that's widely accepted).--Zegna 22:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
It's about an event that this group has announced and is sponsoring, but we don't have enough information about it to require splitting from this article. It should be turned into a section in here. Night Gyr 18:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I merged it in TruthSeeker1234 15:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I am very curious about the charges of 'junk science' which MONGO and others have been leveled at Jones. I have never heard anyone specifically state how and where Jones has deviated from the scientific method, or where he has gone wrong. Has anyone done a formal critique of Jones' paper? Note that when skeptics accuse the government of 'junk science', they back it up with rigorous analysis, such as this - [7]
MONGO? Mmx? Anyone?
TruthSeeker1234 15:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
If you claim that such conspiracy theories are "junk science", you should explain in detail as to why that is the case and you must use legitimate scientific arguements and scientific sources to support your opinions. If you do not do this you would be proving nothing but your arrogance and ignorance on the subject matter at hand. Archival McTannith 09:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but why is it junk Morton devonshire? Something must have led you to this opinion. I find his paper persuasive, and very scientific, but if you can just point out where he is wrong, perhaps I'll start believing the official story again. That would be a relief. TruthSeeker1234 23:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
That's an answer to a different question, Morton. Jones does not claim to be a structural engineer. His paper is on the physics involved. Your assumption that only a structural engineer is qualifed to comment on the collapse of the WTC is wrong. What would a structural engineer know about explosives, or molten metal, or conservation of angular momentum, for instance? Getting to the full truth about these unprecedented events will require input from various specialties.
Now, the question I asked was NOT "Is Jones a reputable source for WP?". The questions are, "Where has Jones gone wrong in his physics?" and "How did Jones deviate from the scientific method" and "How do you come to the conclusion that his is junk science?" TruthSeeker1234 03:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Assume that the "conspiracy-theorists" are right with what they say. Now think about the potential consequences: You would effectively have a US-government guilty of mass-murder, high treason and probably a list of other offences as long as my arm. If this were to be proven, the said government would not just face impeachment, but in all certainty some far more serious consequences. In addition, i think you could safely say that no one in this world would touch the United States of America with a barge-pole: i leave the political implications of that to your imagination. Given those circumstances, you could pose the question "if it was like that- would people really want to know?", and more specifically you could ask "would the scientific and political establishment want to know?" That may not explain wether or not Prof. Jones' theories are junk-science. What it *does* mean is that the possibility that the opinions of some of his colleagues may be tainted is just as real as the possibility that his expertise is worthless. 86.41.210.214 16:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The section offers no reasonthis student was notable - though it clearly attempts to imply- but not say- he was killed for his membership (i clearly am deeply skeptical, why kill a lowly student instead of say a prof?). I think this section merits deletion unless someone can write a NPOV explanation of why this kid is notable. 216.207.246.230 20:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The placement of a {{prod}} is inappropriate. WP:PROD states {{prod}} should only be used for "uncontroversial deletion candidates." Since this article recently went through an AfD without consensus, it can't qualify as an "uncontroversial deletion candidate." I'm removing the tag. -- mtz206 ( talk) 00:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Most of what this article said was unverifiable by Wikipedia standards (See WP:RS), relying completely on the Scholars website for support. Morton devonshire 00:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
People that care about this article might be able to find something from news coverage worth adding: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=%22Scholars+for+9%2F11+Truth%22&btnG=Search+News Some comparison of the article in its current state to its longer version http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scholars_for_9/11_Truth&oldid=54197907 may be warranted as well. I'm not sure why the links to the WP pages for some of the groups' members were deleted, for example. Шизомби 03:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
This link, titled 'Wikipedia: What it Doesn't Say', was removed from the article, and rightly so, but it may be of some interest to editors. I'll leave it here so it doesn't go even though we're removing it from the article. Cheers, THE KING 19:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The following text currently appears in the intro (above the TOC) of the article:
I am of the opinion that these questions are worded in such a way as to cast discredit upon tradional scientific views about 9/11. For example, 'where is the science...' hardly belongs in an encyclopedia, and clearly suggests pov. If you can tell from the text which side of an argument one stands on, it could be argued that the text is pov. However this is so blatant that it needs rewording, and i suggest moving to another section in the article. Possibly something to the effect of 'disagreements with the scientific community' What are other editors thoughts? THE KING 19:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
What caused building #7 of the World Trade Center to collapse? How did all three WTC buildings collapsed close to the speed of gravity? What is the source of molten metal which was observed pooling in the rubble?
I'm not sure a fact tag is needed for Andreas von Bülow's membership. I think it's sufficient under the section of WP:V I quoted above in Talk:Scholars for 9/11 Truth#Unverifiable according to Wikipedia standards that the organization claims him as a member. Given the plausibility that he would be a member of such an organization in light of what we know about Bülow, and the absence of any denial that he is a member by anyone (except some wikipedians), I think WP:V has to have its way. Шизомби 20:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
"As of February 2006, the website was pointing readers to sources which some members of the 9/11 Truth movement say lack credibility and scientific merit, are packaged as entertainment and distort evidence in favor of their claims. citation needed A related concern has been that the website effectively ignores the websites and original work by some of the most respected long-term researchers of the 9/11 attacks citation needed, such as CooperativeResearch.org, FromTheWilderness.com, 911Truth.org, OilEmpire.us, 911Research.WTC7.net, Ratical.org/ratville/CAH/, and WTCEO.org. In contrast to the scholars group, most of these researchers believe that commercial jets with real passengers did hit the buildings on September 11 2001."
I can find any support for this statement on there website, so I have moved it to this talkpage: Where do they state that they belive there wasn't planes going in to the towers? Actually the whole critique section is based on the groups alleged belief that no planes hit the buildings, but I cant find support for that at all on there website. Please enligthen me or rewrite. EyesAllMine 06:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
No it was Bov who wrote the critique section first: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scholars_for_9%2F11_Truth&diff=42122495&oldid=41989835 And the whole critique seems to emerge from one mans article namely Green, why does it get so much space in the article? EyesAllMine 13:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I still fail to see where the website promotes debunked theories. Could you point me to it? EyesAllMine 14:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Much better. Still this part is a bit odd: "only one side of a serious and divisive debate within the 9/11 movement is presented for contemplation. Similarly, papers asserting that a plane did not hit the Pentagon are posted on the front page, but no papers asserting the opposite are posted, that a Boeing 757 did indeed hit the building as described by dozens of witnesses at the scene." as this is the official explanantion. They dont provide papers that fire made the two towers and building seven collaps, either. They are examining the accounts, and therefore the critique is misguided in my oppinion. And who has published this criticism anyway? is it just Bov? EyesAllMine 10:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a mighty long argument - and it rambles, frankly. The basic issue is, should this article (Scholars for Truth) be deleted. I believe it should not because nothing in the article (as opposed to statements the authors may have made elsewhere) is inaccurate: Scholars here are not maintaining anything but that the information so far made public is woefully insufficient for a matter of this gravity. They have banded together to demand a more thorough investigation than the public have to now been treated to; and they demand this for very good reasons that there are a dozen or more very very weak links in the official explanation of what happened. So the article should stand.
The vast, vast majority of their ideals have been debunked time and time again with logical reasoned thinking. This madness has to stop, there are immutable facts that are being distorted and twisted by this collection of philosphers and creative arts\drama "scholars", out of their entire "Member List" aprox 4 of the entire list of over 200 names have ANY relation to structural engineering. This should be deleted, as pure hokum. Macktheknifeau 22:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a notable group. If you think their work is "hokum", start a blog. SkeenaR 09:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
For one, the members often call themselves experts, eg "EXPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX", despite the fact many of them are no-where near "experts" on the field of structural engineering. Steven Jones - Only "published" work on the matter is in a Marxist Economic Journal. Out of the 76 "members", the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, Litrature\English and Psychology with 5 each, Theolgy 4, Humanitys 3. They have 5 physicists (although 1 is actually a lab technician). Engineers? 2. 1 of which is the Jupiter Bomb, Alien letter toting outcast Petit and the other's work has focused mainly on the stresses of dentistry.
These guys are really in the position to talk about how the various buildings collapsed. The entire group is comprised of psudeo-experts. Macktheknifeau 09:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
You are definitely entitled to your own opinion as long as you keep it on the discussion page. SkeenaR 17:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
For those interested, an RfC has been filed regarding User:Zer0faults at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults. Any comments would be appreciated. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
this is a joke. James Fetzer is the 9/11 truth movement. You deny him the right to update it. If you had a bio of me and it was wrong, and I could not update it then wikipedia has a real problem. The problem with wikipedia is it thinks it can make a difference throwing up the same disinformation that is distributed on a daily basis by main stream media or the us government.
James Fetzer Video explaining how wikipedia denied him access to update his 9/11 truth movment.
http://www.blogtext.org/andy/article/5867.html
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 166.61.194.2 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, July 17, 2006 (UTC)
Would one way of dealing with this dispute be to add the fact the Scholars for 9/11 truth is critical of wikipedia to the summary of the organisation? They feature this fairly prominently on their website ( http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesWikipedia.html) and it could be a neat way of making clear to readers the dispute about this page? - jon_m (Talk) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.127.18.193 ( talk • contribs) 19:18, July 17, 2006 (UTC)
The real joke is that anybody takes James Fetzer seriously. There is no "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" -- it's just Fetzer in his den with a computer and internet access.
Morton Devonshire
Yo
01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Well - i just put the critique back in then - there doesn't seem to be any valid argument to leave it out. EyesAllMine 07:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not webspace. The group's founder can write whatever he wants on his own webspace but his view is not appropriate for this article under WP:AUTO as it is not a neutral description. -- Mmx1 04:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying that all of his edits around 06:23, 07 August 2006 are necessarily bad. The last one was quite definitely properly reverted by Mmx1, but they're all related, so I reverted all of them. A criticism section is quite appropriate, if properly sourced, but individual criticism's must be properly sourced. (It should be noted that I don't believe any of them are scholars in an appropriate field, but I'm going to try not to let that get into my edits.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Things REALLY need to be properly cited with this section. rootology ( T) 06:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Some additional cleanup as of this version. The "300 people" is spin vs. this group--they can cite themselves to say who is included, and they state they have scholars, faculty, and students. "300 people, include..." is a fair way to do this. Also, they do question the government account per sourced WP:RS stuff in the Overview. Both of these need to stay to maintain balance. rootology ( T) 07:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to remove this "numerical breakdown" because it appears to be made up out of whole cloth by someone. A twenty second look at the Who Are We part of their site reveals at least 30+ engineers, not "two". rootology ( T) 16:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is much cleaner now and a lot closer at least to being NPOV. All it needs is proper citation for the Conclusion and Criticism sections. rootology ( T) 20:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I will be offline and have to go right now, but yeah, the POV chunks that mxmx1 deleted were accurate. Could someone readd the removed criticism section? Yes it's unsourced but I wasn't even planning on removing unsourced bits myself for several weeks (if at all) to give people time to collect citations. rootology ( T) 02:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that unfinished work should remain "ONLINE" until someone else does the work for you? That is complete B.S. I could put up Vandalism and say "Please someone take the time to find sources for each of the questionable items I posted but no one else edit them until some random nice person, at some random time does this good deed for me!"
What are you like 12 years old? You don't get to post incomplete work and beg others to leave it alone until you or someone can finish doing the grunt work. Francespeabody 02:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
You started it with your "bullshit. This is not Fetzer's webspace and verbatim reproduction of his POV will not be allowed" manifesto/response to why you keep reverting relevant information.
You are not Neutral and clearly your commitment to "United States Marine Corps" (Articles I've created) colors your opinion and exposes your motives for censorship but none of that is relevant to the idea that the article is about the group itself and not about "What others think" about the group. As a contributor, I have found the most adequate definition of the group and included it.
You are acting silly. It is like if you don't agree with a groups message you think it is ok to redefine the group for anyone looking for information about who the group is. I don't like the KKK but I am not editing the Wiki article to make it more "Black Friendly" or "Negative" about them. I would even cite their founder as a definitive source for who they are because that is the "OBJECTIVE" thing to do.
I know you drank the kool aid and are all to willing to blindly accept whatever anyone with a uniform tells you so listen closely... "Semper Fi yourself into some common sense." Francespeabody 02:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
First, you excuse your attack and are critical of my comments? "Bullshit vs. 12 year old" is unequal in that your remark suggests the entire thought process of another person is to be regarded as equal to that which a male cow excretes, where as the other remark suggests the thoughts as having come from someone much younger. Is that Harsh or something more?
Second, I cited the indiviual and suggested that you re-read the article for proof but since you are too lazy here is the opening sentense. "According to the founding member James H, Fetzer..." article overview here.
Third, that the KKK thinks blacks inferior is a fact of the group and is stated in the opening sentence of their Wiki. "Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is the name of a number of past and present fraternal organizations in the United States that have advocated white supremacy". White Supremacy implies blacks and any non-white has lesser intellect and are less human and I have not sought to change or soften that definition.
You seem to forget that this is what they are and what they beleive. It does not matter if I take offense or disagree because it is the truth. Likewise, the group "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" was founded by James H, Fetzer and I cited his definition of the organization in the overview. You have no legitimate basis for removing that regardless of your opinion. Are you rushing over to the Klan article right now to make it less offensive to blacks? OH, why not? Because you know full well that it represents the truth and your thoughts on the matter are not relevant? Ok, now you get it. If you revert this article again, I will first go to the KKK site and look for similar "cleansing" and if you have not done it, I will come back here and revert this back to the truth. BTW, I know you are not a Marine, I was being sarcastic. If you were a Marine, your sorry but would be off in Iraq defending James H, Fetzer's right to say what he wants... and bringing your flavor of democracy to a group of people who are clearly begging for it. In between the rapes, torture and murder I do think democracy is being shown to them by the few Marines who can keep the dicks in their pants. Francespeabody 03:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
This here is the version of the article I rv'd back to, my last edit from yesterday that had sat peacefully until this began tonight. rootology ( T) 04:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Just so everyone knows where people are coming from. I don't have the patience to involve myself in the minutiae of who said what, particularly in the face of wholesale edits such as that exhibited here - and I applaud Rootology's hard work in bringing this to NPOV. Moreover, I am not particularly interested in which way this article slants and am willing to let the interested parties debate it among themselves. However, as an encyclopedia writer, I am aware that there are strict boundaries on what is acceptable and will enforce those boundaries against POV-pushing by involved parties that stamps all over the compromised, NPOV content that many people have worked hard to tweak and implement. The policy of WP:NPOV expressly forbids presenting a single POV masquerading as content, and replacing the body of this article with 13 paragraphs as a "citation" is a lie. A footnote is a citation. A 13-paragraph essay is plagarism.-- Mmx1 04:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"Scholars for 9/11 Truth" should at best be merged with the primary 9/11 conspiracy theories. Too many liberties are being taken in the this article to render it verifiable.-- Scribner 18:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
As I've said before, the "External link" at Wikipedia: What it Doesn't Say by James H. Fetzer should be included ONLY in a section of the article, rather than as a self-reference. As a stand-alone external link, it is an inappropriate self reference. A possible draft sentence to be included in the body of the article.
The founder of Scholars objects to the content of this article in Wikipedia: What it Doesn't Say by James H. Fetzer.
— Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Uh, this would be amazingly bad, and I advise you to not do any such thing based on criticism sections being removed. I was one of the people that removed many of the links, as they simply, flat out, did not meet WP:EL or WP:RS. A mass reversion of that magnitude/age would be a tremendously bad idea and would be reverted immediately if it was an RV. You can bring back an old version of the Criticism section, as long as any sources meet WP:RS and WP:V. Unfortunately, if the criticisms section cannot be sourced, it cannot exist forever--when I removed a link there myself I left a {{fact}} tag, with the attention of removing unsourced after several weeks, to give people time to source them. Unfortunately, they weren't, and others began removing them from the criticisms section. This is all valid and per policy, for something to be included the burden of proof is on the inclusionists. NPOV doesn't play a role--NPOV doesn't mean there has to be a criticism section if it can't be sourced. rootology ( T) 16:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Thats cool, so you can deleted Problem-reaction-solution citing RS, even thogh it is not needed to primary quotes, but you can ignore RS when critisizing s9/11t? Yeah, just as i thought...-- Striver 18:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
It's... ugly. Maybe just stick with the easier to work with list? rootology ( T) 18:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I added the {{ disputed-section}} tag, because I don't think anything other than the first sentence is directly supported by the sources, and thus the section may consititute WP:OR. (I may fix the tag, later.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[12] -- Striver 17:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51761 Feds challenge 9/11 conspiracies] -- Striver 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted Mablespam's 'updating' of the theory section - this wasn't referenced, and the language wasn't NPOV imo. If the scholars have come out with new research, though, it would be great to include this - but in a more npov tone, and with references. I may look at their website to see what the latest is at some point, but lack the time at the moment.
I've also put an updated criticism section back in the article. So far as I can tell, this is now not out of date; if any info in this is outdated, it would be good if someone could specify what this is. At any rate, whether or not you agree with the scholars, they are a controversial group so I think the article needs a criticism section Jon m
I know this has been nominated for deletion several times before. However, the organisation has now collapsed - most of the article refers to the defunct s911t The organisation might just about have been notable when it was in existence - for what it potentially could achieve in the future - but it no longer exists. We have a fairly long article, with POV problems (the scholars broke up in part because of disagreement re. what 'their' theory was, for example), for an organisation that from what I can tell never really achieved much; the organisation also no longer exists. Any objections if I nominate this for deletion again? Jon m 00:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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