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Reviewer: Tim riley ( talk · contribs) 13:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Starting first read-through. More soonest. Tim riley ( talk) 13:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I am sorry to say that this article needs a lot of work before it satisfies the GA criteria. It is well written, and very interesting, but it is poorly referenced. There are whole paragraphs without a single citation in:
In the remaining paragraphs there are many individual sentences that also lack citations.
The Wikipedia:Good article criteria require that material is verifiable. I have no doubt that the opinions and technical points in the article are faithful reflections of material in your listed sources, but you need to say inline which source each comes from.
There are other objections, such as whether the article is supposed to be in American or English spelling, but they can wait until the key matter of the referencing is addressed. I am putting the article on hold for a week to give time for this to be done. – Tim riley ( talk) 16:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Tim, and Hucbald: There are more problems than that. Some of those citations are not proper citations at all. For example: "The analyst is expected to develop a "distance hearing" (Fernhören),[6] a "structural hearing".[7]" FN7 merely mentions Salzer's book in toto. Having read it three times, I do not believe that Salzer ever says that Schenker required the analyst is expected to develop "a" structural hearing. It's the other way round: Salzer uses Schenker's concepts to help students develop structural hearing; he doesn't use structural hearing to help his pupils do Schenkerian analysis.
The article in its present form is overloaded with editorializing. For examples:
As for the Legacy and responses section, I don't think you need to fear to improve it, Hucbald. It has been tagged for expansion for over 5 years, is improperly cited, and contains stuff like "the fierce philosophical opposition between Oswald Jonas and Felix Salzer set the stage for a conservative–liberal split among Schenkerians that persists to this day". I would say go ahead and make something better. The article would hardly be complete without adequate coverage of the legacy.
There is still loads of original research. For example: "Linking the (major) triad to the harmonic series, Schenker merely pays lip service to an idea common in the early 20th century.[10]" FN10 reads "The same link is made, for instance, in Schoenberg’s Harmonielehre, Wien, Universal, 1911, 7/1966, p. 16." That is not justification for saying "... merely pays lip service ..."
Citations are inconsistent as whether they are given in full in the footnotes or refer to the references. Those in the footnotes are presented inadequately: no ISBNs even for books that have them. No authorlinks or journal links. No doi's or links to abstracts ...
Sometimes the tone lapses from encyclopedic into lecturing. For example: "Schenker's project may be compared with that of Gestalt theory, contemporary to his theories, and, more genreally [sic], which the development of phenomenology and structuralism.[8]" You can say that in a lecture if you want, but in an encyclopedia (tertiary source, remember) you can only say "... has been compared ...", and only if your sources really make those comparisons. But perhaps, unless you're going to elaborate on what the comparisons tell, it's not quite nice to raise the subject in the first place, since many readers will be left behind by a sentence like that. -- Stfg ( talk) 18:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I am most grateful for your comments. I think -- and I say so without animosity nor regret -- that my nomination for this article as a GA should be removed. Not that it won't reach the standards, but because I don't want it to. I am perfectly aware that the article is full of personal opinions (let's call them "original research" if you want, although I trust that they are for the most part documented in Schenker's own writings). I am fully satisfyed with what you wrote, that "this excellent article has helped [you] considerably". I would hate to edulcorate it, removing precisely all that helped you, merely because of Wikipedia's policy.
I don't think that the article (or what I wrote in it) ever advances "a position not advanced by the sources", at least not by the primary sources, i.e. Schenker's own writings; it does advance ideas that may not be found in (American) secundary sources, though. But I can't share Wikipedia's conception of an Encyclopedia as "tertiary": happily for us all, this was not Diderot & d'Alembert's conception! I don't think it possible to convey "a comprehensive understanding of S.A.", something that nobody ever achieved (even not Schenker himself); I trust that "vulgarizing" means "making accessible by the people" (latin vulgus) and that is what the article achieved, at least in your case. I am content with that, more happy, as a matter of fact, than by any recognition or the article as a "GA" by Wikipedia's standards.
I began rewriting this article following a suggestion made by the American Society for Music Theory that "specialists" should see to the quality of the Wikipedia articles. I don't know now whether it was a reasonable suggestion, but I am glad to have helped produce the article as it is. I have been teaching Schenkerian analysis for many years (but not in the United States and, therefore, not subjected to some American misconceptions), and the article is an indirect result of that teaching. I'll leave it now to live its own life on Wikipedia, until anyone feels it necessary to improve or merely to correct it. In the meanwhile, it may still help people unterstand S.A. (And, for my part, I have enough possibilities to make it available on Internet otherwise.)
One again, this all said without any animosity nor any regret. I enjoyed the whole affair enormously, up to our present discussion. I leave it now to others (possibly to SMT members) to go on.
-- Hucbald.SaintAmand ( talk) 20:57, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Tim riley ( talk · contribs) 13:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Starting first read-through. More soonest. Tim riley ( talk) 13:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I am sorry to say that this article needs a lot of work before it satisfies the GA criteria. It is well written, and very interesting, but it is poorly referenced. There are whole paragraphs without a single citation in:
In the remaining paragraphs there are many individual sentences that also lack citations.
The Wikipedia:Good article criteria require that material is verifiable. I have no doubt that the opinions and technical points in the article are faithful reflections of material in your listed sources, but you need to say inline which source each comes from.
There are other objections, such as whether the article is supposed to be in American or English spelling, but they can wait until the key matter of the referencing is addressed. I am putting the article on hold for a week to give time for this to be done. – Tim riley ( talk) 16:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Tim, and Hucbald: There are more problems than that. Some of those citations are not proper citations at all. For example: "The analyst is expected to develop a "distance hearing" (Fernhören),[6] a "structural hearing".[7]" FN7 merely mentions Salzer's book in toto. Having read it three times, I do not believe that Salzer ever says that Schenker required the analyst is expected to develop "a" structural hearing. It's the other way round: Salzer uses Schenker's concepts to help students develop structural hearing; he doesn't use structural hearing to help his pupils do Schenkerian analysis.
The article in its present form is overloaded with editorializing. For examples:
As for the Legacy and responses section, I don't think you need to fear to improve it, Hucbald. It has been tagged for expansion for over 5 years, is improperly cited, and contains stuff like "the fierce philosophical opposition between Oswald Jonas and Felix Salzer set the stage for a conservative–liberal split among Schenkerians that persists to this day". I would say go ahead and make something better. The article would hardly be complete without adequate coverage of the legacy.
There is still loads of original research. For example: "Linking the (major) triad to the harmonic series, Schenker merely pays lip service to an idea common in the early 20th century.[10]" FN10 reads "The same link is made, for instance, in Schoenberg’s Harmonielehre, Wien, Universal, 1911, 7/1966, p. 16." That is not justification for saying "... merely pays lip service ..."
Citations are inconsistent as whether they are given in full in the footnotes or refer to the references. Those in the footnotes are presented inadequately: no ISBNs even for books that have them. No authorlinks or journal links. No doi's or links to abstracts ...
Sometimes the tone lapses from encyclopedic into lecturing. For example: "Schenker's project may be compared with that of Gestalt theory, contemporary to his theories, and, more genreally [sic], which the development of phenomenology and structuralism.[8]" You can say that in a lecture if you want, but in an encyclopedia (tertiary source, remember) you can only say "... has been compared ...", and only if your sources really make those comparisons. But perhaps, unless you're going to elaborate on what the comparisons tell, it's not quite nice to raise the subject in the first place, since many readers will be left behind by a sentence like that. -- Stfg ( talk) 18:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I am most grateful for your comments. I think -- and I say so without animosity nor regret -- that my nomination for this article as a GA should be removed. Not that it won't reach the standards, but because I don't want it to. I am perfectly aware that the article is full of personal opinions (let's call them "original research" if you want, although I trust that they are for the most part documented in Schenker's own writings). I am fully satisfyed with what you wrote, that "this excellent article has helped [you] considerably". I would hate to edulcorate it, removing precisely all that helped you, merely because of Wikipedia's policy.
I don't think that the article (or what I wrote in it) ever advances "a position not advanced by the sources", at least not by the primary sources, i.e. Schenker's own writings; it does advance ideas that may not be found in (American) secundary sources, though. But I can't share Wikipedia's conception of an Encyclopedia as "tertiary": happily for us all, this was not Diderot & d'Alembert's conception! I don't think it possible to convey "a comprehensive understanding of S.A.", something that nobody ever achieved (even not Schenker himself); I trust that "vulgarizing" means "making accessible by the people" (latin vulgus) and that is what the article achieved, at least in your case. I am content with that, more happy, as a matter of fact, than by any recognition or the article as a "GA" by Wikipedia's standards.
I began rewriting this article following a suggestion made by the American Society for Music Theory that "specialists" should see to the quality of the Wikipedia articles. I don't know now whether it was a reasonable suggestion, but I am glad to have helped produce the article as it is. I have been teaching Schenkerian analysis for many years (but not in the United States and, therefore, not subjected to some American misconceptions), and the article is an indirect result of that teaching. I'll leave it now to live its own life on Wikipedia, until anyone feels it necessary to improve or merely to correct it. In the meanwhile, it may still help people unterstand S.A. (And, for my part, I have enough possibilities to make it available on Internet otherwise.)
One again, this all said without any animosity nor any regret. I enjoyed the whole affair enormously, up to our present discussion. I leave it now to others (possibly to SMT members) to go on.
-- Hucbald.SaintAmand ( talk) 20:57, 11 November 2013 (UTC)