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The result of the move request was move to Scharnhorst class battleship. There seems to be a strong consensus that this should be moved somewhere, and the proposed title has clearly more support than the alternative. The opposition seems to concentrate on the thought that the term "battleship" is an inaccurate one in this case, but please remember that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. The naming conventions advise to use the name that is most commonly used in English-language sources, and it looks like the proposed title meets this criterion. Jafeluv ( talk) 19:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Scharnhorst class warship (1936) → Scharnhorst class battleship — The German navy referred to these ships as battleships, while the British called them battlecruisers. The current compromise title is an example of wikiality and should be done away with. Parsecboy ( talk) 18:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Although I agreed to the current compromise name that was established over a year ago, I've come to view it as highly problematic. Our naming conventions instruct us to use titles that are common in English usage; no one would ever call Gneisenau a "Scharnhorst class warship." There has been a long-running dispute over whether these ships were battleships or battlecruisers, and I am well aware of the can of worms I've opened. I do think, however, that the article would be improved if a more "correct" title was chosen. I of course favor the battleship designation, though if consensus turns to calling them battlecruisers, I'd take that over the current title.
Let me start this discussion by reminding everyone that comes here that we should not be discussing the capabilities or characteristics of the ships, how they were employed, how they were designed, or anything that isn't towards establishing primary usage. All the rest of that is original research and is strictly forbidden. I ask that whatever admin who eventually closes this discussion take this into consideration when the time comes. Parsecboy ( talk) 19:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Big sigh. Can we not leave it as it is? We reached a compromise and though both parties might dislike the outcome, it's better than having repeated debates and page moves, which is what will continue to happen if either party gets its way.
I think we should keep it and save ourselves the wiki-stress. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 19:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
In short, I think that anything would be better than the current title, which is a cop-out and a disservice to readers of the article. While I supported calling the ships 'battlecruisers' based on what's in the (relatively small) number of books I own which discuss these ships, 'battleships' would also be fine; it doesn't really matter as long as one redirects to the other. Unfortunately there isn't a WP:COINTOSS which would allow the result of evenly-weighted discussions like this to be decided through random chance, but I'd be happy to do the honours with one of the coins on my computer desk. Nick-D ( talk) 11:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Support : the specifications are way below those of what would be called a battleship in 1939, they are closer to the British Repulse class battlecruisers, but do not even match their speed or armament. The results when it went one-on-one with Duke of York indicate it was not a fast battleship as intended or hoped. The article itself describes them as effectively enlarged Deutschland class. Rcbutcher ( talk) 08:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Best thing to do would be to use the direct translation of the German designation - They were after all German ships - looking at German wikipedia they are refered to as Schlachtschiffe Battleship rather than Schlachtkreuzer therefore this is what we should use Ala.foum ( talk) 21:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
There has been a complete rewrite of the description of the engagement with Renownon 9 April 1940.
Original, based on Barnett
'10 September Version
Key differences
To try to resolve these discrepancies I looked at Germany and the Second World War: Volume 2: Germany's Initial Conquests in Europe: Germany's Initial Conquests in Europe Vol 2 by Klaus A. Maier (Author), Horst Rohde (Author), Bernd Stegemann (Author), Hans Umbreit (Author), the Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Contributor), P. S. Falla (Editor), Dean S. McMurray (Translator), Ewald Osers (Translator), pub Clarendon Press, 4 July 1991, ISBN: 0198228856 page 208, which states:
Page 211 states that Hipper "left Trondheim on the evening of 10 April" and page 210 states that "the Hipper was able to reach the two battleships and enter the Jade with them on 13 April at 8 p.m.".
That the Renown received two hits in this engagement is confirmed by British Battleships , Warrior 1860 to Vanguard 1950 , A History of Design , Construction and Armament, by Dr Oscar Parkes OBE AINA, pub Seeley, 1957, republished US Naval Institute, 1990, ISBN 1-55750-075-4 page 617:
The following account comes from Destroyer Actions, September 1939 - June 1940, by Harry Plevy, pub Spellmount, 2006,
ISBN
1-86227-331-6, pages 115-6:
-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
...aren't necessary when the same information is present in the text of the article and are cited there. It's the same as with the introduction. Parsecboy ( talk) 14:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Some articles have one version in the infobox and another in the text, and knowing where information comes from is a problem. It is therefore better to have citations in both places.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Some aspects of coverage are weaker than the version at 1629 9 September.
The purpose of ship class articles is to look at the class as a whole - this particularly means design, and how well the design performed. I don't see this coming through in the accounts of these ships service lives given here. Actually if I wanted a service life for each ship I would look at the articles on each ship. The accounts here should be illuminating the description of the design - otherwise it is just repetition. I don't mind a little repetition from the individual ship articles to set the scene, or to make the article make sense, but if it does not illuminate the design, then why is it here?
This article has become over-reliant on one source. Yes I know you can look it up on Google books - but that is not a reason for ignoring everything else.
I have recategorised this as a start article, because coverage needs improving.-- 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 17:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
This article will probably meet Wikipedia:Good article criteria in a couple of month's time, but it does not meet them now.
Checklist:
1. Well written - yes
2.a. Factually accurate - maybe, there are differences between sources that need resolving
2.b. and verifiable - yes
3. Broad in its coverage - not yet, but it is getting there
4. Neutral - yes
5. Stable - no, it underwent huge changes last weekend
6. Illustrated - yes
-- Toddy1 ( talk) 06:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Renaming this page to "Scharnhorst class battleship" was not a good idea. Either battleship or battlecruiser is supported in the secondary English language sources, and those that justified the move on other arguments such as "This is what the Germans classed them as." should have been disregard. As the articles which mention the actions which the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are clearly going to use secondary sources based on British primary source, and the majority of those sources state that the they were battlecruiser, if the ship has to be under one designation or the other it would make sense to use battlecruiser. However as it can also be shown that many sources use battleship it makes more sense to keep the title as a descriptive one such as that at which is was until recently: Scharnhorst class warship (1936). -- PBS ( talk) 11:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The following sources name them as Battleships:
Garzke and Dullin, however, refer to them as battlecruisers, although acknowledging that the German designation was Battleship. Kurfürst ( talk) 12:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The number of google books results is irrelevant. Searching "Invincible class battleship" gives 4,900 results on Google books while searching "Invincible class battlecruiser" gives only 3,950. Are we also going to call the Invincible a battleship now? K. Bog 21:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I think there's far too much redundant detail about individuals ships in this article, such as the Battle of North Cape - this article should concentrate on what was common about the ship class - concepts, specifications, issues, problems. It should only make brief reference to the individual ships' operations. Otherwise we have the same stuff in three places - Battle of North Cape, here and the Scharnhorst article. I think the Battle article is the place for the authoritative detail relating to a specific battle, and the details of the ships' careers apart from battles should appear in one place, the ship's article. Rcbutcher ( talk) 17:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a nice article.
As predicted this didn't go away. We seem to have a three way edit war going on over the wording of the classification paragraph. I think there a few contentious bits (currently) at the start and end of the second paragraph (which is currently hidden).
The first bit suggests the RN "initially" classified them as battlecruisers and then changed its mind. Although I've added references, I don't think they really support the assertion that there was a change (they simply indicate that the British classified them as battlecruisers). It would be helpful if someone could reproduce the relevant section of the Staff History source to see if it really supports the assertion (Google books does not provide a full preview). If not then we should remove it.
The second bit... I don't actually see a problem in citing an entire book if the consistent usage throughout that book is the point of the argument; the assertion itself (i.e. that there is mixed usage) is not contentious surely?
The third bit (currently hidden) describing why different sources use different classifications seems to be useful. Am I right in thinking, Parsecboy, that you object to it because you believe that a single reference (of two) is not sufficient to support that block of text? Or that it was placed to support that block of text? Wiki-Ed ( talk) 21:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
In the section titled "Gneisenau's reconstruction", there is the following statement: "It was estimated that it would take two years to make the ship ready for service.[60] Since this was such a long period, it was determined that it would be more efficient if during the repair work, the ship was reconstructed to mount the six 38 cm (15 in) guns that had been originally intended." I have no problem with this information per se, as I had previously read it in Breyer. However, there is no mention earlier in the article that 38cm guns were originally intended for this class. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the section on the ships' development? Jonyungk ( talk) 22:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Most of the articles in which these ships are mentioned are ones involving battles with the Royal Navy or RAF. Under British terminology these were and are battlecruiser but because this the articles have links the names of the class and ships good intentioned editors change the names from battlecruiser to battleship for reasons of WP:ENGVAR it would cause less disruption/inaccuracies to the project if these articles were under battlecruiser rather than battleship. -- PBS ( talk) 11:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Maybe we should not be using American English sources. I think it might be more appropriate to use sources from countries that had to contend with these ships, rather than the second-hand opinions of authors from countries which did not. Also, since the meaning seems to differ, perhaps we could add the word "battlecruiser" to the list of English word variations like harbour/harbor, colour/color, and aluminium/aluminum. Warships in the US sphere of influence could use American definitions, warships in British spheres of influence could use British definitions. :) Wiki-Ed ( talk) 00:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
This discussion is actually an excellent example for misguided essentialism. There seems to be an urge to place everything in its little box, which often helps us to cope with the world. In the old discussion, one editor writes: "In short, I think that anything would be better than the current title, which is a cop-out and a disservice to readers of the article." - Why would it be a cop-out, if the Scharnhorsts obviously are neither clearly battleships nor clearly battlecruisers? I get that the title back then was awkward, but that feeling again is just a result of our urge for placing thing into labeled boxes. Would the disservice to the reader not much more severe if we place a label on a ship that does not deserve it?
In this case that urge clearly fails us: The Scharnhorsts very clearly do not fall under the categories of treaty battleships or battlecruisers, simply because Germany had no reason to build anything under treaty rules. Just as with the Pockets, they simply tried to build a ship that would (vastly) outgun anything that it couldn't outrun, and lo and behold, they came up with something somewhat between a battleship and a battlecruiser, but adding a few details from neither.-- 194.25.30.9 ( talk) 16:52, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Now I know this has gone on for ages and I'm not sure if this is of any relevance, but if one takes a look at how the Kriegsmarine utilised her capital ships, it is very difficult to classify them in the Anglo/US/Japanese sense. I mention these nations and their navies as they wer the Kriegsmarine's contemporaries.
-All German capital ships were built with the intended role of operating as commerce raiders. The Kriegsmarine could never have hoped to match the Royal Navy and so adopted the doctrine of focusing their attacks on commerce fleets. Thus, even the Bismarck-class battleships, while large and heavily armoured, were never intended to stand and fight British battleships. They were to use their speed to disengage in the face of heavy surface ships. Their guns and armour however, could see them drive light, heavy and battlecruisers off.
-The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau where smaller than the Bismarck's, carried lighter armament and were far lightly armoured. They were equipped to deal with light and heavy cruisers and fast enough to out-run battleships and battlecruisers. Thus, the classification as battleships do not fit these ships in anyway. They in no way could have stood and engaged the Royal Navy's battleships nor were they intended to do so.
-The Kriegsmarine's objective was to always attempt breakouts into the Atlantic shipping lanes and never to draw out and engage enemy ships.
-The classification is further complicated by the Deutschland-class warships. The Germans simply referred to them as Panzerschiffe, or 'armoured ships'. But, because they were considerably smaller than battleships and battlecruisers while carrying relatively heavy guns, the British labelled them as Pocket battleships. Once again, they followed the trend of packing guns to deal with smaller or equal sized ships and the speed to run away from heavier ships and once again, everything points to commerce raiding. The presence of battleship in their English title is a misnomer as it is highly doubtful that the Germans would've seen them as battleships if they were reluctant to use their larger ships as conventional battleships.
It seems one will never name German warships in a way that keeps everyone happy. I know their intended roles have little bearing on how they are named here, but the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are not really battleships when one looks at and compares them to contemporary battleships of the Royal Navy, United States Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy, and they were not designed to nor intended to engage heavy ships in battle. Enough punch to drive off cruisers, but not enough punch or armour to exchange fire with battleships.
thesmartstag (
thesmartstag)
09:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I think that it would be best if everyone provided sources for their comments here and focused on proposed edits to the article. Nick-D ( talk) 10:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I concur that I overlooked the armour figures of the Scharnhorst, it did in fact have equal or superior armour in most departments, but there is one crucial area that may dispell it's credentials as a true battleship; thickness of deck armour.
- King George V-class battleships - up to 149mm of deck armour
- French Dunkerque - 115-125mm of deck armour
- battleship Bismarck - 110-120mm of deck armour
- French Richelieu-class battleships - 40-150mm of deck armour
- battlecruiser HMS Hood - 19 - 76mm of deck armour
- Scharnhorst - a maximum of 50mm of deck armour
- Deutschland-class heavy cruisers/pocket battleships - 40mm of deck armour
The main batteries of capital warships fire plunging shot. By design, the guns of capital ships cannot depress far enough to fire flat. This makes thick deck armour neccessary if you are to stand and engage equal ships. The Scharnhorst does not even compare favourably with the much older HMS Hood in this area and is basically on par with the smaller Deutschland-class warships. In relation to the Scharnhorst's impressive belt armour, it's thin deck armour severely compromises the effectiveness of the ships citadel. 14 and 15-inch shells raining down on her would've posed a very dangerous situation. The Bismarck had up to twice the deck armour of her and the KGVs have nearly 3 times the thickness. When one looks at the KGVs armament and all round armour, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are ill-equipped to stand-off and engage them.
No, I don't think the Bismarck and Tirpitz are battlecruisers, I mentioned them because they where better equipped to deal with enemy battleships but the Kriegsmarine never made it their intention to use them to actively seek out and engage the British battle fleets. They were fast for their size and it was a key factor in the design process, they had to be able to disengage and run. Could they stand and fight? Yes. Could Germany afford to? No. Germany adopted a policy of attacking merchant shipping. Only once the proposed Plan Z had been completed, could the Kriegsmarine hope to engage the Royal Navy in pitched battle. All vessels planned for the completion of Plan Z would entail the construction of ships larger and more suited to pitched battles than those that were currently in service.
I apologise The Land. thesmartstag ( thesmartstag) 14:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
The American author AT Mahan had theories abut the right way to use sea-power, which he wrote in the late 1880s, at time when his nation did not have a single battleship in service. According to Mahan's theories, the right thing to do is to use fleets of battleships to gain command of the sea.
At the time he wrote these theories, Mahan will have been aware that two of the major European powers, Germany and Italy, had built ships that the Royal Navy regarded as battleships but which were intended for a different concept of operations. Germany and Italy in the 1870s and 1880s had to face a likely war scenario where they would be fighting against France, which had a more powerful navy than they had. At the time, the British and French envisaged squadrons of armoured battleships blockading enemy ports, assisted by other types of vessels. The German and Italian concept was for individual battleships and cruisers to sortie from ports; the breakout would be assisted by torpedo boats attacking the blockading squadron. German battleships were intended for operations in the Baltic and perhaps also the English Channel, and tended to be medium-size and of short range. Italian battleships were intended to roam the Western Mediterranean and were large, fast and by the standards of the day long range. These concepts of operation gradually went out of fashion in the 1890s, in part thanks to Mahan.
The German ideas of the 1920s-40s for the use of battleships are similar to the German and Italian ideas of the 1870s-80s.
(I realise that some editors will argue with the classification of 1870s-80s ships. All I will say was that in the late-1880s the British classified such ships as battleships.)-- Toddy1 ( talk) 13:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
The citadel of a ship is the converging/overlapping point of the thick belt armour, the deck armour, the barbettes, the turret and the conning tower. The citadel protects the main magazines, the boilers and the 'heart' of the ship (captains' bridge, fire control etc). The Scharnhorst's citadel is uncomparable to any other contemporary battleship in that it has a glaring weak point.
A quick look at the Scharnhorst's guns shows that at a range of 7,900m, the shell is hitting at an angle of 4.4 degrees. That angle of impact increases as the range increases. At it's maximum range of 27,000m, you are looking at an imapct angle of 30 degrees. And at this range, the Scharnhorst could penetrate 76mm of deck armour, more than enough to penetrate it's own deck and ample enough to test the deck of the battlecruiser HMS Hood. I can't imagine this trend being any different for other naval guns, with probability of larger guns actually being able to pierce more armour. During the Battle of the Denmark Strait, the Hood opened fire on the Bismarck at a range of 24,200m. Using the Scharnhorst as an example, this would indicate impact angles of 25-26 degrees. The Bismarck's fifth and final salvo fired at the Hood in the same battle was at a range of 16,650m, once again using the figures of the Scharnhorst, you're looking at an impact angle of 10-13 degress. Shallow, but not flat and a chance at a glancing blow on the deck. That angle could also see a shell deflecting off of thicker turret or conning tower armour and being redirected to the deck.
The Hood's armour layout exposed her relatively thin deck due to the angle of the belt. Immediately after the Battle of Jutland, up to an inch of deck armour in some places was added to decrease the vulnerability of the deck to plunging fire. Tests with 15-inch shells fired at a mockup of the Hood after the improvements indicated that the deck was still vulnerable to high-trajectory, plunging fire and this would remain a cause for concern within the Admiralty until her demise. Planned refits were afoot to further improve the deck's protection, but they were never carried out. Now, the Scharnhorst was likely not designed in the same way, but thinner deck armour would indicate she would be in no better position and would indicate weakness. Battleships would not stumble on each other at ranges of 5,000m. They would likely encounter each other at extreme ranges and attempt to maneuver in closer, opening fire once their guns were at their maximum range, placing emphasis on deck armour. Either way you look at it, deck armour is a vital component of a ships overall protection.
As Admiral Beatty exclaimed at Jutland, "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today.." And what I found is a common link, thin deck armour. 3 battlecrusiers went down at Jutland and the main area where weight is saved for speed on a battlecruiser is deck armour. Sir John Jellicoe himself focused on deck armour being of serious concern on his battlecrusiers after the battle, hence the reworking of the Hood's armour.
And regarding the H-class ships, they would get larger and larger;
Hitler was grandiose and whether these would have been possible is unknown, but the Japanese built ships with 18-inchers, the Yamato and Musashi, so Germany could've at the least built ships of comparable size and maybe slightly larger. thesmartstag ( talk) 08:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
I focus on deck armour as it is something in common between British battlecruiser designs prior to the proposed G3's and the Scharnhorst. The Japanese Kongo's were also less than impressive in this area.
I understand the areas the German ships were intended to operate in and I understand that ranges would be close, but the fact remains, British and German ships did encounter each other at extreme ranges and when they could, they opened fire, just like the Hood engaging the Bismarck at over 24,000m and at that range, tests proved that the Hood's deck put it in a dangerous position. They did maneuver to close in, but you are risking yourself when sending a battleship with relatively thin decks up against a full-fledged battleship, especially when closing the distance.
The Royal Navy added nearly 5,000 tons of weight and proposed a further upgrade and more weight that would essentially rob the Hood of one of her strongpoints, speed. The concept of the battlecruiser was to use speed to run, why erode that as a 'cover up'.
It's like building a bunker with concrete reinforced walls and floors and a solid steel door but putting a wooden roof on it. All battleships have a better ratio of deck armour to every other aspect of their armour but battlecruisers have a a much more inferior ratio. Post-Jutland battlecruiser designs, with the British G3's being a good example, were intended to have significantly heavier deck armour, almost approaching battleship territory, yet it was referred to as a battlecrusier. The proposed US Lexington-class battlecruisers were also extremely heavily armoured and both were 10,000 tons heavier and upwards.
I know if's and but's are worthless in an historical argument, but if the Lexington's and G3's were put to sea, there is no doubt in my mind that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would be battlecruisers.
I have enjoyed this debate, I really have, it will likely go in circles and I may upset people, I may already have, by once again opening this can, so I'll put it to rest on my side. thesmartstag ( talk) 08:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that a hatnote to distinguish the two classes (battleship and WW1 cruiser) would be very much a good thing. It may be that to an expert in this subject the distinction is obvious, but not everyone is (and that's probably why they come to read the article). Bagunceiro ( talk) 12:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Although it is widely cited, the preserved turrets at Stevnsfortet (Danish Cold War era fortress), are not from Gneisenau. They have a low height - they are so-called "short" turrets, produced fo any planned ships. The German coastal battery at Fanø island, where they had been installed (before transfer to Stevnsfortet), has been named "Gneisenau". That is probable source of that common mistake. The real Gneisenau "long" turret is preserved at Petsamo coastal battery (whole turret with the armour partially scrapped) and the lower part of the turret is preserved at the Netharlands, inside the bunker M219 of Zanddijk coastal battery. Ondřej Filip ( talk) 21:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Archives are Redlinked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.52.99 ( talk) 22:15, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Per this old revision, I think this article was written in American English. -- John ( talk) 13:31, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
I find it surprising that this article makes no mention of the repeated problems that Scharnhorst had with her superheater tubes - these caused problems on operations, e.g. the curtailment of operations in the Atlantic in March 1941. A substantial part of the time in Brest naval dockyards was occupied with fitting new tubes made of better quality material. This in turn made the ships a target for the RAF for a longer period of time, and the ongoing repairs prevented involvement with Bismarck's breakout.
Mention of Scharnhorst's boiler difficulties appears on page 143 of Garzle and Dulin, with mention of the repairs on page 144. There is also discussion of the usage of the French Naval Arsenal facilities in Brest to fix this problem in Hellwinkel, Lars. Hitler's Gateway to the Atlantic: German Naval Bases in France 1940-1945. Seaforth Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Is there any logic to this omission?
ThoughtIdRetired (
talk)
23:07, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
The text says:
There is no mention of the 95 mm thick horizontal plates, called on the drawing „Panzerdeck”. It seems to be the „main armor deck”. The „slopes” are attached to this, not to the 50 mm ones. -- Andreas ( talk) 18:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The debate over whether these ships were battleships or battlecruisers has been resolved by the article stating both classifications. This follows the sources cited by the article. Garzke and Dulin is, for instance, one respected source that uses "battlecruiser". User:Scharnhorst-Is-A-Battleship needs to realise that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that is based on the reliable sources ( WP:RS) that is uses. Where sources conflict, the article content is decided by consensus among the contributing editors. If this user wants to initiate a discussion on this talk page, first read the discussions shown above and then start a new section here on the issue. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 13:25, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
The belt armour of the Scharnhorst class battleship was the same 320mm plate as the following Bismarck class. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.19.12.76 ( talk) 10:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
"The Scharnhorst-class ships were equipped with Krupp armor. Their upper armored deck was 50 mm (2.0 in) thick, and backed by the main armor deck. This deck was 20 mm (0.79 in) thick aft, increased to 50 mm in the central portion of the ship that contained the ammunition magazines and machinery spaces, and decreased down to 20 mm in the bow. It was supported by 105 mm (4.1 in) thick slopes on either longitudinal side. The slopes connected to the lower edge of the main belt, an arrangement referred to as the "turtle deck." The slopes significantly increased armor protection in the critical areas of the ship. The ships' vitals were well armored against any caliber shell fired by battleships at the time at ranges where the shell would have to penetrate both the main belt and the sloping deck. At very long ranges, the deck armor could be easily penetrated by heavy-caliber shells. All of these sections were composed of Wotan Hart (Wotan Hard) steel. The armored belt was 350 mm (14 in) thick in the central portion of the ship, where the critical areas of the ship were located. Forward of the "A" turret the belt was reduced to 150 mm (5.9 in), which tapered down to zero at the bow of the ship. Aft of the rear gun turret the belt decreased to 200 mm (7.9 in), and eventually tapered down to nothing at the stern. The central portion of the belt was backed by 170 mm (6.7 in) thick shields. The belt armor was composed of Krupp Cemented steel (KC). The side protection system could not be penetrated by a 2,240 lb (1,020 kg) 16 in (406 mm) shell at any range over 11,000 m (12,000 yd)."
I read this as the main armor deck is the deck referred to as "this Deck" in sentence 2. the thickness if that is the case seems incorrect. I don't have access to Groner but the scheme's i have seen show the armour deck to be 105mm in the citadel outside of the inner 40mm bulkhead with 95mm for the magazine roofs and 80mm over machinery spaces. I also haven't seen the ends as tapers but as 70mm fore which ends at the bow and 90mm aft which terminates at the aft of steering compartment with a 150/200mm (different sources) transverse. I don't know what "The central portion of the belt was backed by 170 mm (6.7 in) thick shields" refers to but the lower portion of the main belt (lower 30% i believe) tapers to this thickness.
Calculation for penetration is D&Gs but Scharnhorst gunnery documents suggest the Germans thought threat from Nelson's 2048 lb penetrating the citadel started around 220hm for a 20 degree engagement off broadside, though they overestimated the MV of the weapon and 165hm for the 15"/42 probably not valid for inclusion in the article but posted as I found it interesting comparison.
"The forward conning tower had 350 mm-thick sides and a roof that was 200 mm-thick. The rear conning tower was less well armored, with sides and a roof that were only 100 mm (3.9 in) and 50 mm thick, respectively. The gun turrets for the main battery had 360 mm (14 in) thick faces, 200 mm thick sides, and 150 mm thick roofs. The barbettes that held the 28 cm gun turrets were also heavily armored; the sides were 350 mm thick and tapered down to 200 mm on the centerline, where they were shielded by the gun turrets above. The faces of the 15 cm turrets were 140 mm (5.5 in) thick, with 60 mm (2.4 in) thick sides and 50 mm thick roofs. The 10.5 cm gun mounts were equipped with 20 mm (0.79 in) gun shields. All of this armor was KC steel." I suspect that anything horizontal or less than 10cm would have to be Krupp non cemented or Woten Hart not KC n/A. 78.150.86.84 ( talk) 12:40, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
When checking the page history I noticed a comment tha Groner is a better source. I'm interested why this is so since Groner is a secondary source released in the 60s-70s My normal thought on the subject would be that primary sources closest to the relevant point in time are of highest value followed by the newest secondary sources. Also if we are to take Groner it should be read correctly it doesn't say the belt forward of A turret is 150mm it says the transverse bulkhead is 150mm likewise the aft transverse bulkhead is 200mm 92.10.214.190 ( talk) 17:46, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
2,800 tons of fuel is not the designed capacity, it's the quantity carried at design or construction displacement condition which is is given as 25-50% of bunkage depending on class this is noted in notes and abbreviations prolog groner ix. 92.10.214.190 ( talk) 11:29, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was move to Scharnhorst class battleship. There seems to be a strong consensus that this should be moved somewhere, and the proposed title has clearly more support than the alternative. The opposition seems to concentrate on the thought that the term "battleship" is an inaccurate one in this case, but please remember that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. The naming conventions advise to use the name that is most commonly used in English-language sources, and it looks like the proposed title meets this criterion. Jafeluv ( talk) 19:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Scharnhorst class warship (1936) → Scharnhorst class battleship — The German navy referred to these ships as battleships, while the British called them battlecruisers. The current compromise title is an example of wikiality and should be done away with. Parsecboy ( talk) 18:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Although I agreed to the current compromise name that was established over a year ago, I've come to view it as highly problematic. Our naming conventions instruct us to use titles that are common in English usage; no one would ever call Gneisenau a "Scharnhorst class warship." There has been a long-running dispute over whether these ships were battleships or battlecruisers, and I am well aware of the can of worms I've opened. I do think, however, that the article would be improved if a more "correct" title was chosen. I of course favor the battleship designation, though if consensus turns to calling them battlecruisers, I'd take that over the current title.
Let me start this discussion by reminding everyone that comes here that we should not be discussing the capabilities or characteristics of the ships, how they were employed, how they were designed, or anything that isn't towards establishing primary usage. All the rest of that is original research and is strictly forbidden. I ask that whatever admin who eventually closes this discussion take this into consideration when the time comes. Parsecboy ( talk) 19:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Big sigh. Can we not leave it as it is? We reached a compromise and though both parties might dislike the outcome, it's better than having repeated debates and page moves, which is what will continue to happen if either party gets its way.
I think we should keep it and save ourselves the wiki-stress. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 19:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
In short, I think that anything would be better than the current title, which is a cop-out and a disservice to readers of the article. While I supported calling the ships 'battlecruisers' based on what's in the (relatively small) number of books I own which discuss these ships, 'battleships' would also be fine; it doesn't really matter as long as one redirects to the other. Unfortunately there isn't a WP:COINTOSS which would allow the result of evenly-weighted discussions like this to be decided through random chance, but I'd be happy to do the honours with one of the coins on my computer desk. Nick-D ( talk) 11:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Support : the specifications are way below those of what would be called a battleship in 1939, they are closer to the British Repulse class battlecruisers, but do not even match their speed or armament. The results when it went one-on-one with Duke of York indicate it was not a fast battleship as intended or hoped. The article itself describes them as effectively enlarged Deutschland class. Rcbutcher ( talk) 08:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Best thing to do would be to use the direct translation of the German designation - They were after all German ships - looking at German wikipedia they are refered to as Schlachtschiffe Battleship rather than Schlachtkreuzer therefore this is what we should use Ala.foum ( talk) 21:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
There has been a complete rewrite of the description of the engagement with Renownon 9 April 1940.
Original, based on Barnett
'10 September Version
Key differences
To try to resolve these discrepancies I looked at Germany and the Second World War: Volume 2: Germany's Initial Conquests in Europe: Germany's Initial Conquests in Europe Vol 2 by Klaus A. Maier (Author), Horst Rohde (Author), Bernd Stegemann (Author), Hans Umbreit (Author), the Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Contributor), P. S. Falla (Editor), Dean S. McMurray (Translator), Ewald Osers (Translator), pub Clarendon Press, 4 July 1991, ISBN: 0198228856 page 208, which states:
Page 211 states that Hipper "left Trondheim on the evening of 10 April" and page 210 states that "the Hipper was able to reach the two battleships and enter the Jade with them on 13 April at 8 p.m.".
That the Renown received two hits in this engagement is confirmed by British Battleships , Warrior 1860 to Vanguard 1950 , A History of Design , Construction and Armament, by Dr Oscar Parkes OBE AINA, pub Seeley, 1957, republished US Naval Institute, 1990, ISBN 1-55750-075-4 page 617:
The following account comes from Destroyer Actions, September 1939 - June 1940, by Harry Plevy, pub Spellmount, 2006,
ISBN
1-86227-331-6, pages 115-6:
-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
...aren't necessary when the same information is present in the text of the article and are cited there. It's the same as with the introduction. Parsecboy ( talk) 14:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Some articles have one version in the infobox and another in the text, and knowing where information comes from is a problem. It is therefore better to have citations in both places.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Some aspects of coverage are weaker than the version at 1629 9 September.
The purpose of ship class articles is to look at the class as a whole - this particularly means design, and how well the design performed. I don't see this coming through in the accounts of these ships service lives given here. Actually if I wanted a service life for each ship I would look at the articles on each ship. The accounts here should be illuminating the description of the design - otherwise it is just repetition. I don't mind a little repetition from the individual ship articles to set the scene, or to make the article make sense, but if it does not illuminate the design, then why is it here?
This article has become over-reliant on one source. Yes I know you can look it up on Google books - but that is not a reason for ignoring everything else.
I have recategorised this as a start article, because coverage needs improving.-- 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 17:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
This article will probably meet Wikipedia:Good article criteria in a couple of month's time, but it does not meet them now.
Checklist:
1. Well written - yes
2.a. Factually accurate - maybe, there are differences between sources that need resolving
2.b. and verifiable - yes
3. Broad in its coverage - not yet, but it is getting there
4. Neutral - yes
5. Stable - no, it underwent huge changes last weekend
6. Illustrated - yes
-- Toddy1 ( talk) 06:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Renaming this page to "Scharnhorst class battleship" was not a good idea. Either battleship or battlecruiser is supported in the secondary English language sources, and those that justified the move on other arguments such as "This is what the Germans classed them as." should have been disregard. As the articles which mention the actions which the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are clearly going to use secondary sources based on British primary source, and the majority of those sources state that the they were battlecruiser, if the ship has to be under one designation or the other it would make sense to use battlecruiser. However as it can also be shown that many sources use battleship it makes more sense to keep the title as a descriptive one such as that at which is was until recently: Scharnhorst class warship (1936). -- PBS ( talk) 11:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The following sources name them as Battleships:
Garzke and Dullin, however, refer to them as battlecruisers, although acknowledging that the German designation was Battleship. Kurfürst ( talk) 12:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The number of google books results is irrelevant. Searching "Invincible class battleship" gives 4,900 results on Google books while searching "Invincible class battlecruiser" gives only 3,950. Are we also going to call the Invincible a battleship now? K. Bog 21:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I think there's far too much redundant detail about individuals ships in this article, such as the Battle of North Cape - this article should concentrate on what was common about the ship class - concepts, specifications, issues, problems. It should only make brief reference to the individual ships' operations. Otherwise we have the same stuff in three places - Battle of North Cape, here and the Scharnhorst article. I think the Battle article is the place for the authoritative detail relating to a specific battle, and the details of the ships' careers apart from battles should appear in one place, the ship's article. Rcbutcher ( talk) 17:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a nice article.
As predicted this didn't go away. We seem to have a three way edit war going on over the wording of the classification paragraph. I think there a few contentious bits (currently) at the start and end of the second paragraph (which is currently hidden).
The first bit suggests the RN "initially" classified them as battlecruisers and then changed its mind. Although I've added references, I don't think they really support the assertion that there was a change (they simply indicate that the British classified them as battlecruisers). It would be helpful if someone could reproduce the relevant section of the Staff History source to see if it really supports the assertion (Google books does not provide a full preview). If not then we should remove it.
The second bit... I don't actually see a problem in citing an entire book if the consistent usage throughout that book is the point of the argument; the assertion itself (i.e. that there is mixed usage) is not contentious surely?
The third bit (currently hidden) describing why different sources use different classifications seems to be useful. Am I right in thinking, Parsecboy, that you object to it because you believe that a single reference (of two) is not sufficient to support that block of text? Or that it was placed to support that block of text? Wiki-Ed ( talk) 21:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
In the section titled "Gneisenau's reconstruction", there is the following statement: "It was estimated that it would take two years to make the ship ready for service.[60] Since this was such a long period, it was determined that it would be more efficient if during the repair work, the ship was reconstructed to mount the six 38 cm (15 in) guns that had been originally intended." I have no problem with this information per se, as I had previously read it in Breyer. However, there is no mention earlier in the article that 38cm guns were originally intended for this class. Shouldn't this be mentioned in the section on the ships' development? Jonyungk ( talk) 22:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Most of the articles in which these ships are mentioned are ones involving battles with the Royal Navy or RAF. Under British terminology these were and are battlecruiser but because this the articles have links the names of the class and ships good intentioned editors change the names from battlecruiser to battleship for reasons of WP:ENGVAR it would cause less disruption/inaccuracies to the project if these articles were under battlecruiser rather than battleship. -- PBS ( talk) 11:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Maybe we should not be using American English sources. I think it might be more appropriate to use sources from countries that had to contend with these ships, rather than the second-hand opinions of authors from countries which did not. Also, since the meaning seems to differ, perhaps we could add the word "battlecruiser" to the list of English word variations like harbour/harbor, colour/color, and aluminium/aluminum. Warships in the US sphere of influence could use American definitions, warships in British spheres of influence could use British definitions. :) Wiki-Ed ( talk) 00:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
This discussion is actually an excellent example for misguided essentialism. There seems to be an urge to place everything in its little box, which often helps us to cope with the world. In the old discussion, one editor writes: "In short, I think that anything would be better than the current title, which is a cop-out and a disservice to readers of the article." - Why would it be a cop-out, if the Scharnhorsts obviously are neither clearly battleships nor clearly battlecruisers? I get that the title back then was awkward, but that feeling again is just a result of our urge for placing thing into labeled boxes. Would the disservice to the reader not much more severe if we place a label on a ship that does not deserve it?
In this case that urge clearly fails us: The Scharnhorsts very clearly do not fall under the categories of treaty battleships or battlecruisers, simply because Germany had no reason to build anything under treaty rules. Just as with the Pockets, they simply tried to build a ship that would (vastly) outgun anything that it couldn't outrun, and lo and behold, they came up with something somewhat between a battleship and a battlecruiser, but adding a few details from neither.-- 194.25.30.9 ( talk) 16:52, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Now I know this has gone on for ages and I'm not sure if this is of any relevance, but if one takes a look at how the Kriegsmarine utilised her capital ships, it is very difficult to classify them in the Anglo/US/Japanese sense. I mention these nations and their navies as they wer the Kriegsmarine's contemporaries.
-All German capital ships were built with the intended role of operating as commerce raiders. The Kriegsmarine could never have hoped to match the Royal Navy and so adopted the doctrine of focusing their attacks on commerce fleets. Thus, even the Bismarck-class battleships, while large and heavily armoured, were never intended to stand and fight British battleships. They were to use their speed to disengage in the face of heavy surface ships. Their guns and armour however, could see them drive light, heavy and battlecruisers off.
-The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau where smaller than the Bismarck's, carried lighter armament and were far lightly armoured. They were equipped to deal with light and heavy cruisers and fast enough to out-run battleships and battlecruisers. Thus, the classification as battleships do not fit these ships in anyway. They in no way could have stood and engaged the Royal Navy's battleships nor were they intended to do so.
-The Kriegsmarine's objective was to always attempt breakouts into the Atlantic shipping lanes and never to draw out and engage enemy ships.
-The classification is further complicated by the Deutschland-class warships. The Germans simply referred to them as Panzerschiffe, or 'armoured ships'. But, because they were considerably smaller than battleships and battlecruisers while carrying relatively heavy guns, the British labelled them as Pocket battleships. Once again, they followed the trend of packing guns to deal with smaller or equal sized ships and the speed to run away from heavier ships and once again, everything points to commerce raiding. The presence of battleship in their English title is a misnomer as it is highly doubtful that the Germans would've seen them as battleships if they were reluctant to use their larger ships as conventional battleships.
It seems one will never name German warships in a way that keeps everyone happy. I know their intended roles have little bearing on how they are named here, but the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are not really battleships when one looks at and compares them to contemporary battleships of the Royal Navy, United States Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy, and they were not designed to nor intended to engage heavy ships in battle. Enough punch to drive off cruisers, but not enough punch or armour to exchange fire with battleships.
thesmartstag (
thesmartstag)
09:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I think that it would be best if everyone provided sources for their comments here and focused on proposed edits to the article. Nick-D ( talk) 10:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I concur that I overlooked the armour figures of the Scharnhorst, it did in fact have equal or superior armour in most departments, but there is one crucial area that may dispell it's credentials as a true battleship; thickness of deck armour.
- King George V-class battleships - up to 149mm of deck armour
- French Dunkerque - 115-125mm of deck armour
- battleship Bismarck - 110-120mm of deck armour
- French Richelieu-class battleships - 40-150mm of deck armour
- battlecruiser HMS Hood - 19 - 76mm of deck armour
- Scharnhorst - a maximum of 50mm of deck armour
- Deutschland-class heavy cruisers/pocket battleships - 40mm of deck armour
The main batteries of capital warships fire plunging shot. By design, the guns of capital ships cannot depress far enough to fire flat. This makes thick deck armour neccessary if you are to stand and engage equal ships. The Scharnhorst does not even compare favourably with the much older HMS Hood in this area and is basically on par with the smaller Deutschland-class warships. In relation to the Scharnhorst's impressive belt armour, it's thin deck armour severely compromises the effectiveness of the ships citadel. 14 and 15-inch shells raining down on her would've posed a very dangerous situation. The Bismarck had up to twice the deck armour of her and the KGVs have nearly 3 times the thickness. When one looks at the KGVs armament and all round armour, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are ill-equipped to stand-off and engage them.
No, I don't think the Bismarck and Tirpitz are battlecruisers, I mentioned them because they where better equipped to deal with enemy battleships but the Kriegsmarine never made it their intention to use them to actively seek out and engage the British battle fleets. They were fast for their size and it was a key factor in the design process, they had to be able to disengage and run. Could they stand and fight? Yes. Could Germany afford to? No. Germany adopted a policy of attacking merchant shipping. Only once the proposed Plan Z had been completed, could the Kriegsmarine hope to engage the Royal Navy in pitched battle. All vessels planned for the completion of Plan Z would entail the construction of ships larger and more suited to pitched battles than those that were currently in service.
I apologise The Land. thesmartstag ( thesmartstag) 14:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
The American author AT Mahan had theories abut the right way to use sea-power, which he wrote in the late 1880s, at time when his nation did not have a single battleship in service. According to Mahan's theories, the right thing to do is to use fleets of battleships to gain command of the sea.
At the time he wrote these theories, Mahan will have been aware that two of the major European powers, Germany and Italy, had built ships that the Royal Navy regarded as battleships but which were intended for a different concept of operations. Germany and Italy in the 1870s and 1880s had to face a likely war scenario where they would be fighting against France, which had a more powerful navy than they had. At the time, the British and French envisaged squadrons of armoured battleships blockading enemy ports, assisted by other types of vessels. The German and Italian concept was for individual battleships and cruisers to sortie from ports; the breakout would be assisted by torpedo boats attacking the blockading squadron. German battleships were intended for operations in the Baltic and perhaps also the English Channel, and tended to be medium-size and of short range. Italian battleships were intended to roam the Western Mediterranean and were large, fast and by the standards of the day long range. These concepts of operation gradually went out of fashion in the 1890s, in part thanks to Mahan.
The German ideas of the 1920s-40s for the use of battleships are similar to the German and Italian ideas of the 1870s-80s.
(I realise that some editors will argue with the classification of 1870s-80s ships. All I will say was that in the late-1880s the British classified such ships as battleships.)-- Toddy1 ( talk) 13:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
The citadel of a ship is the converging/overlapping point of the thick belt armour, the deck armour, the barbettes, the turret and the conning tower. The citadel protects the main magazines, the boilers and the 'heart' of the ship (captains' bridge, fire control etc). The Scharnhorst's citadel is uncomparable to any other contemporary battleship in that it has a glaring weak point.
A quick look at the Scharnhorst's guns shows that at a range of 7,900m, the shell is hitting at an angle of 4.4 degrees. That angle of impact increases as the range increases. At it's maximum range of 27,000m, you are looking at an imapct angle of 30 degrees. And at this range, the Scharnhorst could penetrate 76mm of deck armour, more than enough to penetrate it's own deck and ample enough to test the deck of the battlecruiser HMS Hood. I can't imagine this trend being any different for other naval guns, with probability of larger guns actually being able to pierce more armour. During the Battle of the Denmark Strait, the Hood opened fire on the Bismarck at a range of 24,200m. Using the Scharnhorst as an example, this would indicate impact angles of 25-26 degrees. The Bismarck's fifth and final salvo fired at the Hood in the same battle was at a range of 16,650m, once again using the figures of the Scharnhorst, you're looking at an impact angle of 10-13 degress. Shallow, but not flat and a chance at a glancing blow on the deck. That angle could also see a shell deflecting off of thicker turret or conning tower armour and being redirected to the deck.
The Hood's armour layout exposed her relatively thin deck due to the angle of the belt. Immediately after the Battle of Jutland, up to an inch of deck armour in some places was added to decrease the vulnerability of the deck to plunging fire. Tests with 15-inch shells fired at a mockup of the Hood after the improvements indicated that the deck was still vulnerable to high-trajectory, plunging fire and this would remain a cause for concern within the Admiralty until her demise. Planned refits were afoot to further improve the deck's protection, but they were never carried out. Now, the Scharnhorst was likely not designed in the same way, but thinner deck armour would indicate she would be in no better position and would indicate weakness. Battleships would not stumble on each other at ranges of 5,000m. They would likely encounter each other at extreme ranges and attempt to maneuver in closer, opening fire once their guns were at their maximum range, placing emphasis on deck armour. Either way you look at it, deck armour is a vital component of a ships overall protection.
As Admiral Beatty exclaimed at Jutland, "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today.." And what I found is a common link, thin deck armour. 3 battlecrusiers went down at Jutland and the main area where weight is saved for speed on a battlecruiser is deck armour. Sir John Jellicoe himself focused on deck armour being of serious concern on his battlecrusiers after the battle, hence the reworking of the Hood's armour.
And regarding the H-class ships, they would get larger and larger;
Hitler was grandiose and whether these would have been possible is unknown, but the Japanese built ships with 18-inchers, the Yamato and Musashi, so Germany could've at the least built ships of comparable size and maybe slightly larger. thesmartstag ( talk) 08:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
I focus on deck armour as it is something in common between British battlecruiser designs prior to the proposed G3's and the Scharnhorst. The Japanese Kongo's were also less than impressive in this area.
I understand the areas the German ships were intended to operate in and I understand that ranges would be close, but the fact remains, British and German ships did encounter each other at extreme ranges and when they could, they opened fire, just like the Hood engaging the Bismarck at over 24,000m and at that range, tests proved that the Hood's deck put it in a dangerous position. They did maneuver to close in, but you are risking yourself when sending a battleship with relatively thin decks up against a full-fledged battleship, especially when closing the distance.
The Royal Navy added nearly 5,000 tons of weight and proposed a further upgrade and more weight that would essentially rob the Hood of one of her strongpoints, speed. The concept of the battlecruiser was to use speed to run, why erode that as a 'cover up'.
It's like building a bunker with concrete reinforced walls and floors and a solid steel door but putting a wooden roof on it. All battleships have a better ratio of deck armour to every other aspect of their armour but battlecruisers have a a much more inferior ratio. Post-Jutland battlecruiser designs, with the British G3's being a good example, were intended to have significantly heavier deck armour, almost approaching battleship territory, yet it was referred to as a battlecrusier. The proposed US Lexington-class battlecruisers were also extremely heavily armoured and both were 10,000 tons heavier and upwards.
I know if's and but's are worthless in an historical argument, but if the Lexington's and G3's were put to sea, there is no doubt in my mind that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would be battlecruisers.
I have enjoyed this debate, I really have, it will likely go in circles and I may upset people, I may already have, by once again opening this can, so I'll put it to rest on my side. thesmartstag ( talk) 08:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that a hatnote to distinguish the two classes (battleship and WW1 cruiser) would be very much a good thing. It may be that to an expert in this subject the distinction is obvious, but not everyone is (and that's probably why they come to read the article). Bagunceiro ( talk) 12:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Although it is widely cited, the preserved turrets at Stevnsfortet (Danish Cold War era fortress), are not from Gneisenau. They have a low height - they are so-called "short" turrets, produced fo any planned ships. The German coastal battery at Fanø island, where they had been installed (before transfer to Stevnsfortet), has been named "Gneisenau". That is probable source of that common mistake. The real Gneisenau "long" turret is preserved at Petsamo coastal battery (whole turret with the armour partially scrapped) and the lower part of the turret is preserved at the Netharlands, inside the bunker M219 of Zanddijk coastal battery. Ondřej Filip ( talk) 21:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Archives are Redlinked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.52.99 ( talk) 22:15, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Per this old revision, I think this article was written in American English. -- John ( talk) 13:31, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
I find it surprising that this article makes no mention of the repeated problems that Scharnhorst had with her superheater tubes - these caused problems on operations, e.g. the curtailment of operations in the Atlantic in March 1941. A substantial part of the time in Brest naval dockyards was occupied with fitting new tubes made of better quality material. This in turn made the ships a target for the RAF for a longer period of time, and the ongoing repairs prevented involvement with Bismarck's breakout.
Mention of Scharnhorst's boiler difficulties appears on page 143 of Garzle and Dulin, with mention of the repairs on page 144. There is also discussion of the usage of the French Naval Arsenal facilities in Brest to fix this problem in Hellwinkel, Lars. Hitler's Gateway to the Atlantic: German Naval Bases in France 1940-1945. Seaforth Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Is there any logic to this omission?
ThoughtIdRetired (
talk)
23:07, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
The text says:
There is no mention of the 95 mm thick horizontal plates, called on the drawing „Panzerdeck”. It seems to be the „main armor deck”. The „slopes” are attached to this, not to the 50 mm ones. -- Andreas ( talk) 18:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The debate over whether these ships were battleships or battlecruisers has been resolved by the article stating both classifications. This follows the sources cited by the article. Garzke and Dulin is, for instance, one respected source that uses "battlecruiser". User:Scharnhorst-Is-A-Battleship needs to realise that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that is based on the reliable sources ( WP:RS) that is uses. Where sources conflict, the article content is decided by consensus among the contributing editors. If this user wants to initiate a discussion on this talk page, first read the discussions shown above and then start a new section here on the issue. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 13:25, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
The belt armour of the Scharnhorst class battleship was the same 320mm plate as the following Bismarck class. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.19.12.76 ( talk) 10:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
"The Scharnhorst-class ships were equipped with Krupp armor. Their upper armored deck was 50 mm (2.0 in) thick, and backed by the main armor deck. This deck was 20 mm (0.79 in) thick aft, increased to 50 mm in the central portion of the ship that contained the ammunition magazines and machinery spaces, and decreased down to 20 mm in the bow. It was supported by 105 mm (4.1 in) thick slopes on either longitudinal side. The slopes connected to the lower edge of the main belt, an arrangement referred to as the "turtle deck." The slopes significantly increased armor protection in the critical areas of the ship. The ships' vitals were well armored against any caliber shell fired by battleships at the time at ranges where the shell would have to penetrate both the main belt and the sloping deck. At very long ranges, the deck armor could be easily penetrated by heavy-caliber shells. All of these sections were composed of Wotan Hart (Wotan Hard) steel. The armored belt was 350 mm (14 in) thick in the central portion of the ship, where the critical areas of the ship were located. Forward of the "A" turret the belt was reduced to 150 mm (5.9 in), which tapered down to zero at the bow of the ship. Aft of the rear gun turret the belt decreased to 200 mm (7.9 in), and eventually tapered down to nothing at the stern. The central portion of the belt was backed by 170 mm (6.7 in) thick shields. The belt armor was composed of Krupp Cemented steel (KC). The side protection system could not be penetrated by a 2,240 lb (1,020 kg) 16 in (406 mm) shell at any range over 11,000 m (12,000 yd)."
I read this as the main armor deck is the deck referred to as "this Deck" in sentence 2. the thickness if that is the case seems incorrect. I don't have access to Groner but the scheme's i have seen show the armour deck to be 105mm in the citadel outside of the inner 40mm bulkhead with 95mm for the magazine roofs and 80mm over machinery spaces. I also haven't seen the ends as tapers but as 70mm fore which ends at the bow and 90mm aft which terminates at the aft of steering compartment with a 150/200mm (different sources) transverse. I don't know what "The central portion of the belt was backed by 170 mm (6.7 in) thick shields" refers to but the lower portion of the main belt (lower 30% i believe) tapers to this thickness.
Calculation for penetration is D&Gs but Scharnhorst gunnery documents suggest the Germans thought threat from Nelson's 2048 lb penetrating the citadel started around 220hm for a 20 degree engagement off broadside, though they overestimated the MV of the weapon and 165hm for the 15"/42 probably not valid for inclusion in the article but posted as I found it interesting comparison.
"The forward conning tower had 350 mm-thick sides and a roof that was 200 mm-thick. The rear conning tower was less well armored, with sides and a roof that were only 100 mm (3.9 in) and 50 mm thick, respectively. The gun turrets for the main battery had 360 mm (14 in) thick faces, 200 mm thick sides, and 150 mm thick roofs. The barbettes that held the 28 cm gun turrets were also heavily armored; the sides were 350 mm thick and tapered down to 200 mm on the centerline, where they were shielded by the gun turrets above. The faces of the 15 cm turrets were 140 mm (5.5 in) thick, with 60 mm (2.4 in) thick sides and 50 mm thick roofs. The 10.5 cm gun mounts were equipped with 20 mm (0.79 in) gun shields. All of this armor was KC steel." I suspect that anything horizontal or less than 10cm would have to be Krupp non cemented or Woten Hart not KC n/A. 78.150.86.84 ( talk) 12:40, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
When checking the page history I noticed a comment tha Groner is a better source. I'm interested why this is so since Groner is a secondary source released in the 60s-70s My normal thought on the subject would be that primary sources closest to the relevant point in time are of highest value followed by the newest secondary sources. Also if we are to take Groner it should be read correctly it doesn't say the belt forward of A turret is 150mm it says the transverse bulkhead is 150mm likewise the aft transverse bulkhead is 200mm 92.10.214.190 ( talk) 17:46, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
2,800 tons of fuel is not the designed capacity, it's the quantity carried at design or construction displacement condition which is is given as 25-50% of bunkage depending on class this is noted in notes and abbreviations prolog groner ix. 92.10.214.190 ( talk) 11:29, 8 December 2023 (UTC)