Scarborough, Ontario was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the
good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
cities,
towns and various other
settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles
Requested move 11 December 2022
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support. I've seen no evidence that either of the 2015 page moves actually took into account the real rule — which is that city neighbourhoods which are still recognized as distinct mailing addresses in their own right stay at the province level rather than being moved to the city level. For a person who lives in Scarberia, even to this day their mailing address is still Scarborough, ON rather than Toronto, ON.
Bearcat (
talk)
14:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The rule is that they CAN stay with the Ontario disambiguator. Not that they must. Should every possible postal community be X, Province? No obviously.
Alaney2k (
talk)
00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Don't support - While the rule says that articles CAN stay at the province level, I don't see a rationale FOR the move. Just because it is possible, is not a reason. There are literally dozens of former municipalities in Toronto. Carlton, Weston, Toronto Junction, Parkdale, Mimico, New Toronto, North York, East York, Islington, Rexdale, Downsview, Humber Bay, Etobicoke, York, and there were even villages within Scarborough. Just because you can address a letter to Scarborough, ON, doesn't mean it makes ANY sense to change the article title. People will think that Scarborough is separate from Toronto and it HAS NOT BEEN SEPARATE for over 20 ! years. The first line of the article will still say that Scarborough is a district of Toronto.
Alaney2k (
talk)
17:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Don't support - Editors of articles about neighborhoods in the 905 cities need to read this: They're full of neighborhoods that use the"Neighbourhood, Ontario" format because nearly everyone has a poor sense of municipal identity and still thinks of these places as towns or villages without question and don't even think of opening discussions like this.
Transportfan70 (
talk)
19:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
They're still thought of and talked about like distinct towns. I honestly didn't even thing about those places being fully urbanized until you mentioned it—
blindlynx19:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
York and Toronto's suburbs are different from Toronto. There are municipalities within York. And these former municipalities are spread apart. Not so in Toronto. Scarborough is nothing more than a division on a map now. A somewhat distinct district maybe. But drive up Vic Park Ave. Both sides look the same. All of the services are Toronto. From the perspective of a reader outside Toronto, and anywhere in the world, Scarborough is part of Toronto.
Alaney2k (
talk)
23:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
By that metric most of the GTA can be thought of as part of Toronto from the perspective of certain outsiders, the Canada Post test is a decent metric for where to drawn the line especially given that people in southern Ontario—including Torontonians—still think in terms of preamalgamation municipalities—
blindlynx23:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That is a bit silly. Of course, if you mention Mississauga or Woodbridge to someone outside Ontario, etc. you would still want to give them something to reference that is known internationally. We've gone over this several times. There is not benefit to renaming it. Simply because you can and some (an undefined number) think of it differently is not a rationale to rename the article. The common name is Scarborough. Adding the Toronto is for disambiguation, and is the closest upper level of governance. It is informative in that way. What benefit does changing it to Scarborough, Ontario bring? A sense of nostalgia fulfilled? I've occasionally thought that Scarborough, Ontario could be an article about the place that was. But then what would the new article be? And why divide it? People think of it as Scarborough, so don't split it, keep it an article about the current Scarborough. That is what Wikipedia is about after all, being current. If there is interest, then make a history of Scarborough, Ontario article. It dates back to just before 1800 after all.
Alaney2k (
talk)
07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Of course it's silly that's why we have the Canada Post test in
WP:CANPLACE! Scarborough, Ontario is a more intuitive and natural way of thinking about it even now. There's no nostalgia in it, people still think in terms of these divisions—
blindlynx20:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Woodbridge,
Unionville, and
Buttonville aren't municipalities anymore (in fact, they ceased to be long before Scarborough did), and Buttonville never was, nor did Buttonville ever have an identifiable "village" save for a few houses. And they're no longer spread apart. They're suburban districts that extend far from their original sites, just like their Toronto counterparts.
Transportfan70 (
talk)
03:56, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose -
Scarborough, Ontario already redirects here. Scarborough hasn't been it's own city since late last century, and is now a major subdivision of the
City of Toronto, with some limited self-government under the auspices of
Toronto City Council, as documented in
Scarborough, Toronto#Governance. Reverting to archaic Canada Post postal codes (?!?) doesn't reflect common usage - good grief, doesn't Canada Post still recognize
Willowdale, Ontario, which never existed. Perhaps this system works for Ghosttown, Ontario ... but not for distinct Toronto neighbourhoods; there are many many similar articles, such as
Swansea, Toronto.
Nfitz (
talk)
02:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This argument about using Canada Post offices is wrong. Canada Post delivers by postal code anyway. You could probably leave off the city on any piece of mail, and as long as you put the code on, it would get delivered. If you receive mail, as I do, you notice that they sort by postal code by marks on the envelope. And the city already renamed streets in all municpalities to disambiguate them. It has been recognized this is one big city.
Alaney2k (
talk)
07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Is it though? MOS says "may" not "must". And in the case of a former city, where the name is no longer used in many contexts, that may be appropriate. But given that Scarborough not only remains a prominent neighbourhood, it's also a subpolitical unit of the City of Toronto.
Nfitz (
talk)
03:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - as someone who was born and raised in Scarborough, I really don't care about which disambiguator is used. Scarborough, Ontario is still very much common vernacular (nobody will say "Scarborough, Toronto", though they will acknowledge it is part of Toronto). What I do think may matter here is the fact that Scarborough isn't a neighbourhood. Cedarbrae, Malvern, Agincourt... Those are neighbourhoods. Scarborough is nothing now but a memory and a reference. It's a former place in Ontario, not a current place in Toronto... at least that's how I see it. I wouldn't agree to "East Whitby, Oshawa", and I feel the same idea applies here. - Floydianτ¢17:39, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No-one describes Scarborough as a neighbourhood, and several neighbourhoods as you describe were former postal villages too. It's best to leave out personal feelings and be objective.
Alaney2k (
talk)
00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak support using the least precise geographical entity is probably best though Toronto may well be better known than Ontario.
Fulwood, Lancashire (a former district, now in
Preston district) is similarly disambiguated by "state" rather than district/city and
Pinewood, Suffolk is also a municipality in
Babergh district but in the town of
Ipswich but is disambiguated by "state" rather than town. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
19:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As the article itself states, Scarborough is a DISTRICT of Toronto. Hence, the name Scarborough, Ontario is misleading and counter-productive as it indicates that Scarborough is its own municipality, which it is not. Postal codes
under the letter M all count as Toronto, which includes all postal codes in Scarborough. Similarly, the Mayor of Toronto
rules over Scarborough as well. The City of Toronto, Toronto Public Libraries, and Toronto Transit commission all operate in Scarborough, which means Toronto funding goes towards Scarborough. Not to mention, it is
Toronto's largest district by land. Overall, Scarborough is not it's own city, and does not need to be considered so under this Wikipedia title, especially considering its role towards the Toronto economy, culture, and people.
Canadiancorrections (
talk)
16:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Support: I agree with the points raised and believe the name of the article should be reverted to "Scarborough, Toronto." The current title, "Scarborough, Ontario", is misleading as was discussed because it implies that Scarborough is an independent municipality within Ontario. However, this is not the case and hasn't been so since the
amalgamation of Scarborough into Toronto in 1998. Furthermore, Scarborough residents are represented by Toronto City Councillors and Members of Provincial Parliament (MPPs) who serve the Scarborough area within the larger Toronto electoral district. We can even consider the category of
federal electoral districts of Toronto for this conversation. Take the areas of:
Each district listed lie under Toronto for the census division and subdivision. We can see a similar pattern when it comes to the
electoral districts of Ontario.
Even beyond electoral districts, just looking at the breakdown of what the
Greater Toronto Area is, Scarborough is not listed anywhere in the Municipalities in Greater Toronto Area and related CMAs table. Since Scarborough has been "Scarborough, Toronto" since the amalgamation, we don't see it designated as its own municipality in that table. It does not have its own "standing" when thinking about the GTA because it is part of Toronto.
Ashenafee (
talk)
17:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The ", Ontario" suffix is not just for municipalities, it can be for any valid mailing address. For example, there are lots of communities that aren't in any municipality, as they're in unorganized areas. Also, due to amalgamations, you have lots of large municipalities in the province that have several distinct communities within them. I think it would be ridiculous to have the article on
Lindsay, Ontario be moved to
Lindsay, Kawartha Lakes just because it's not a municipality anymore. And I think the same applies to Scarborough. --
Earl Andrew -
talk17:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
SUPPORT Thank you for bringing up mailing addresses! Those in Scarborough often receive mail that says "Toronto, ON." Both Scarborough and Toronto are valid to write for postal codes ending in M. As for Lindsay, small towns operate a bit differently than large metropolitan cities (in terms of public transport, community centres, etc.) , hence why the amalgamation of Toronto plays a crucial role in this title.
Canadiancorrections (
talk)
01:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Scarborough, Ontario was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the
good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
cities,
towns and various other
settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles
Requested move 11 December 2022
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support. I've seen no evidence that either of the 2015 page moves actually took into account the real rule — which is that city neighbourhoods which are still recognized as distinct mailing addresses in their own right stay at the province level rather than being moved to the city level. For a person who lives in Scarberia, even to this day their mailing address is still Scarborough, ON rather than Toronto, ON.
Bearcat (
talk)
14:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The rule is that they CAN stay with the Ontario disambiguator. Not that they must. Should every possible postal community be X, Province? No obviously.
Alaney2k (
talk)
00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Don't support - While the rule says that articles CAN stay at the province level, I don't see a rationale FOR the move. Just because it is possible, is not a reason. There are literally dozens of former municipalities in Toronto. Carlton, Weston, Toronto Junction, Parkdale, Mimico, New Toronto, North York, East York, Islington, Rexdale, Downsview, Humber Bay, Etobicoke, York, and there were even villages within Scarborough. Just because you can address a letter to Scarborough, ON, doesn't mean it makes ANY sense to change the article title. People will think that Scarborough is separate from Toronto and it HAS NOT BEEN SEPARATE for over 20 ! years. The first line of the article will still say that Scarborough is a district of Toronto.
Alaney2k (
talk)
17:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Don't support - Editors of articles about neighborhoods in the 905 cities need to read this: They're full of neighborhoods that use the"Neighbourhood, Ontario" format because nearly everyone has a poor sense of municipal identity and still thinks of these places as towns or villages without question and don't even think of opening discussions like this.
Transportfan70 (
talk)
19:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
They're still thought of and talked about like distinct towns. I honestly didn't even thing about those places being fully urbanized until you mentioned it—
blindlynx19:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
York and Toronto's suburbs are different from Toronto. There are municipalities within York. And these former municipalities are spread apart. Not so in Toronto. Scarborough is nothing more than a division on a map now. A somewhat distinct district maybe. But drive up Vic Park Ave. Both sides look the same. All of the services are Toronto. From the perspective of a reader outside Toronto, and anywhere in the world, Scarborough is part of Toronto.
Alaney2k (
talk)
23:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
By that metric most of the GTA can be thought of as part of Toronto from the perspective of certain outsiders, the Canada Post test is a decent metric for where to drawn the line especially given that people in southern Ontario—including Torontonians—still think in terms of preamalgamation municipalities—
blindlynx23:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That is a bit silly. Of course, if you mention Mississauga or Woodbridge to someone outside Ontario, etc. you would still want to give them something to reference that is known internationally. We've gone over this several times. There is not benefit to renaming it. Simply because you can and some (an undefined number) think of it differently is not a rationale to rename the article. The common name is Scarborough. Adding the Toronto is for disambiguation, and is the closest upper level of governance. It is informative in that way. What benefit does changing it to Scarborough, Ontario bring? A sense of nostalgia fulfilled? I've occasionally thought that Scarborough, Ontario could be an article about the place that was. But then what would the new article be? And why divide it? People think of it as Scarborough, so don't split it, keep it an article about the current Scarborough. That is what Wikipedia is about after all, being current. If there is interest, then make a history of Scarborough, Ontario article. It dates back to just before 1800 after all.
Alaney2k (
talk)
07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Of course it's silly that's why we have the Canada Post test in
WP:CANPLACE! Scarborough, Ontario is a more intuitive and natural way of thinking about it even now. There's no nostalgia in it, people still think in terms of these divisions—
blindlynx20:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Woodbridge,
Unionville, and
Buttonville aren't municipalities anymore (in fact, they ceased to be long before Scarborough did), and Buttonville never was, nor did Buttonville ever have an identifiable "village" save for a few houses. And they're no longer spread apart. They're suburban districts that extend far from their original sites, just like their Toronto counterparts.
Transportfan70 (
talk)
03:56, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose -
Scarborough, Ontario already redirects here. Scarborough hasn't been it's own city since late last century, and is now a major subdivision of the
City of Toronto, with some limited self-government under the auspices of
Toronto City Council, as documented in
Scarborough, Toronto#Governance. Reverting to archaic Canada Post postal codes (?!?) doesn't reflect common usage - good grief, doesn't Canada Post still recognize
Willowdale, Ontario, which never existed. Perhaps this system works for Ghosttown, Ontario ... but not for distinct Toronto neighbourhoods; there are many many similar articles, such as
Swansea, Toronto.
Nfitz (
talk)
02:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This argument about using Canada Post offices is wrong. Canada Post delivers by postal code anyway. You could probably leave off the city on any piece of mail, and as long as you put the code on, it would get delivered. If you receive mail, as I do, you notice that they sort by postal code by marks on the envelope. And the city already renamed streets in all municpalities to disambiguate them. It has been recognized this is one big city.
Alaney2k (
talk)
07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Is it though? MOS says "may" not "must". And in the case of a former city, where the name is no longer used in many contexts, that may be appropriate. But given that Scarborough not only remains a prominent neighbourhood, it's also a subpolitical unit of the City of Toronto.
Nfitz (
talk)
03:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - as someone who was born and raised in Scarborough, I really don't care about which disambiguator is used. Scarborough, Ontario is still very much common vernacular (nobody will say "Scarborough, Toronto", though they will acknowledge it is part of Toronto). What I do think may matter here is the fact that Scarborough isn't a neighbourhood. Cedarbrae, Malvern, Agincourt... Those are neighbourhoods. Scarborough is nothing now but a memory and a reference. It's a former place in Ontario, not a current place in Toronto... at least that's how I see it. I wouldn't agree to "East Whitby, Oshawa", and I feel the same idea applies here. - Floydianτ¢17:39, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No-one describes Scarborough as a neighbourhood, and several neighbourhoods as you describe were former postal villages too. It's best to leave out personal feelings and be objective.
Alaney2k (
talk)
00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak support using the least precise geographical entity is probably best though Toronto may well be better known than Ontario.
Fulwood, Lancashire (a former district, now in
Preston district) is similarly disambiguated by "state" rather than district/city and
Pinewood, Suffolk is also a municipality in
Babergh district but in the town of
Ipswich but is disambiguated by "state" rather than town. Crouch, Swale (
talk)
19:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As the article itself states, Scarborough is a DISTRICT of Toronto. Hence, the name Scarborough, Ontario is misleading and counter-productive as it indicates that Scarborough is its own municipality, which it is not. Postal codes
under the letter M all count as Toronto, which includes all postal codes in Scarborough. Similarly, the Mayor of Toronto
rules over Scarborough as well. The City of Toronto, Toronto Public Libraries, and Toronto Transit commission all operate in Scarborough, which means Toronto funding goes towards Scarborough. Not to mention, it is
Toronto's largest district by land. Overall, Scarborough is not it's own city, and does not need to be considered so under this Wikipedia title, especially considering its role towards the Toronto economy, culture, and people.
Canadiancorrections (
talk)
16:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Support: I agree with the points raised and believe the name of the article should be reverted to "Scarborough, Toronto." The current title, "Scarborough, Ontario", is misleading as was discussed because it implies that Scarborough is an independent municipality within Ontario. However, this is not the case and hasn't been so since the
amalgamation of Scarborough into Toronto in 1998. Furthermore, Scarborough residents are represented by Toronto City Councillors and Members of Provincial Parliament (MPPs) who serve the Scarborough area within the larger Toronto electoral district. We can even consider the category of
federal electoral districts of Toronto for this conversation. Take the areas of:
Each district listed lie under Toronto for the census division and subdivision. We can see a similar pattern when it comes to the
electoral districts of Ontario.
Even beyond electoral districts, just looking at the breakdown of what the
Greater Toronto Area is, Scarborough is not listed anywhere in the Municipalities in Greater Toronto Area and related CMAs table. Since Scarborough has been "Scarborough, Toronto" since the amalgamation, we don't see it designated as its own municipality in that table. It does not have its own "standing" when thinking about the GTA because it is part of Toronto.
Ashenafee (
talk)
17:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The ", Ontario" suffix is not just for municipalities, it can be for any valid mailing address. For example, there are lots of communities that aren't in any municipality, as they're in unorganized areas. Also, due to amalgamations, you have lots of large municipalities in the province that have several distinct communities within them. I think it would be ridiculous to have the article on
Lindsay, Ontario be moved to
Lindsay, Kawartha Lakes just because it's not a municipality anymore. And I think the same applies to Scarborough. --
Earl Andrew -
talk17:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
SUPPORT Thank you for bringing up mailing addresses! Those in Scarborough often receive mail that says "Toronto, ON." Both Scarborough and Toronto are valid to write for postal codes ending in M. As for Lindsay, small towns operate a bit differently than large metropolitan cities (in terms of public transport, community centres, etc.) , hence why the amalgamation of Toronto plays a crucial role in this title.
Canadiancorrections (
talk)
01:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.