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In keeping with the persistent misinformation on blond hair and the evolution of ancient people, I find myself starting yet another talk page discussion to describe numerous unverifiable WP:OR statements in the article.
The breakdown of the "physical appearance" section:
"Genomic data has shown that SHGs displayed higher levels of light pigmentation variants compared to their two source populations,
WHGs and
EHGs."
No reference in the wiki article says this, specifically.
"SHGs had high levels of derived allele frequencies for three pigmentation-associated SNPs ( SLC24A5, SLC45A2, which are associated with skin depigmentation, and OCA2/HERC2, which is associated with eye pigmentation and may contribute to a light or blonde hair colour). [1]"
The suggestion that OCA2/HERC2 is related to blond hair isn't in thd reference, which doesn't contain the word "blond".
"A study by Günther et al, 2018, attributed this depigmentation to adaptations to cold and low light conditions.The earliest recorded individual with a combination of a blonde hair colour and a blue eye colour is a SHG from Motala. [2] [3]"
See above. I see nothing to indicate here that the earliest blue eyed/blond individual known is an SHG. I also see nothing of Günther's proposal.
"These traits have also been found in individuals from later SHG populations like the
Pitted Ware culture.
[4]"
More nonsense. The study does not mention these traits. Hunan201p ( talk) 22:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
These are direct quotes from Torsten Günther et al (2018) and can be found in the author summary and in figure 4
"We demonstrate that Mesolithic Scandinavians had higher levels of light pigmentation variants compared to the respective source populations of the migrations, suggesting adaptation to low light levels and a surprising signal of genetic continuity in TMEM131, a gene that may be involved in long-term adaptation to the cold"
"All of the depigmentation variants at these three genes are in high frequency in SHGs in contrast to both WHGs and EHGs (Fig 4B). We conduct neutral simulations of the allele frequencies in an admixed SHG population to estimate p-values for observing these allele frequencies without selection (S9 Text). The p-values for all three SNPs are lower than 0.2; the combined p-value [54] for all three pigmentation SNPs is 0.028. Therefore, the unique configuration of the SHGs is not fully explained by the fact that SHGs are a mixture of EHGs and WHGs, but could rather be explained by a continued increase of the allele frequencies after the admixture event, likely caused by adaptation to high-latitude environments [50,52]."
I can't see any good reason to exclude this from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScoobyTrips ( talk • contribs) 14:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia: "Most of the Motala SHGs were found to have the depigmentation alleles SLC45A2 and SLC24A5.[7]"
No.
The reference given for this statement [7] is Mathieson 2015, which is "Mathieson, Iain (November 23, 2015). "Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians".
This is what the article actually says:
"The second strongest signal in our analysis is at the derived allele of rs16891982 in SLC45A2, which contributes to light skin pigmentation and is almost fixed in present-day Europeans but occurred at much lower frequency in ancient populations. In contrast, the derived allele of SLC24A5 that is the other major determinant of light skin pigmentation in modern Europe appears fixed in the Anatolian Neolithic, suggesting that its rapid increase in frequency to around 0.9 in Early Neolithic Europe was mostly due to migration (Extended Data Fig. 4)."
In other words, the 90% prevalence among the population of 2 derived alleles or homozygosity on gene SLC24A5 only came in with the expansion of the Early European Farmers of the Neolithic around 6,000 BC. It wasn't there in the Paleolithic or Mesolithic. Also, today's homozygosity for derived alleles knocking out skin pigmentation for gene SLC45A2 didn't come in until the migration of the Yamna pastoralists from the Pontic Steppes of Russia at the start of the Bronze Age. Today's 100% homozygosity for derived alleles on both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 didn't occur until some time after the start of the Bronze Age, around 2,000 BC.
Light skin pigmentation among modern Europeans is the result of near 100% presence of homozygosity for derived alleles on both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. That clearly didn't exist among the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, as there are higher levels of SLC45A2 although not as high as the Yamna, and absence of SLC24A5, which 100% prevalence is connected to the expansion of the Early European Farmers of the Neolithic. Prof. dr. Johannes Krause and colleagues (Reich, Paabo, etc.) reasonably presume that this modern combination happened some time after the rise of the Yamna of the Bronze Age (about 4,000 years BP). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTY9K1Q_Sbg&t=1165s 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:F518:65ED:580D:1E2 ( talk) 02:51, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Also here:
Wikipedia: "In a genetic study published in Nature Communications in January 2018, the remains of an SHG female at Motala, Sweden between 5750 BC and 5650 BC was analyzed. She was found to be carrying U5a2d and "substantial ANE ancestry". The study found that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the eastern Baltic also carried high frequencies of the HERC2, SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 alleles."
The reference given is "9. Mittnik 2018.", Mittnik, Alisa (January 30, 2018). "The genetic prehistory of the Baltic Sea region". Nature Communications. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789860/#MOESM1, with Supplementary Table 6 found here. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789860/bin/41467_2018_2825_MOESM1_ESM.pdf
This is what it shows: EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherers) and even Baltic Mesolithic show either 0% presence or 0 coverage. Most samples are from the Neolithic and Bronze Age. There is no evidence from this data that there was anything like today's homozygosity - or even heterozygosity - for SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 among Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, before the Neolithic. 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:A5FE:DBDF:E0E4:6FEF ( talk) 17:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
A second surprise is that, unlike closely related WHGs, the Motala samples have predominantly derived pigmentation alleles at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5. Sounds like a reasonable paraphrase, but could perhaps use some clarifications. Tewdar 19:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Similar to other European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, our Baltic foragers carry a high frequency of the derived HERC2 allele which codes for light iris colour, and like SHG and EHG they already possess an increased frequency of the derived alleles for SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, coding for lighter skin colour. Perhaps this could also be reworded slightly, but original interpretation of supplementary table data is probably not the best way to proceed here... Tewdar 20:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Increased frequency does not equate to today's 90% prevalence of 2 derived alleles (homozygosity) on SLC24A45 that came in with the Neolithic Early European Farmers- nobody suggested that or added that to the article, did they? Tewdar 09:31, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
The problem is that 1) the average reader doesn't know or appreciate the differenceOh. Well, perhaps you should have led with that. 😁 Maybe we could add more details from the supplementary data to clarify? I don't think the current text misrepresents the cited articles, but I suspect that Mittnik et al. are not only talking about the 'Baltic Mesolithic' individuals when they say 'Baltic foragers'. Tewdar 12:48, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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In keeping with the persistent misinformation on blond hair and the evolution of ancient people, I find myself starting yet another talk page discussion to describe numerous unverifiable WP:OR statements in the article.
The breakdown of the "physical appearance" section:
"Genomic data has shown that SHGs displayed higher levels of light pigmentation variants compared to their two source populations,
WHGs and
EHGs."
No reference in the wiki article says this, specifically.
"SHGs had high levels of derived allele frequencies for three pigmentation-associated SNPs ( SLC24A5, SLC45A2, which are associated with skin depigmentation, and OCA2/HERC2, which is associated with eye pigmentation and may contribute to a light or blonde hair colour). [1]"
The suggestion that OCA2/HERC2 is related to blond hair isn't in thd reference, which doesn't contain the word "blond".
"A study by Günther et al, 2018, attributed this depigmentation to adaptations to cold and low light conditions.The earliest recorded individual with a combination of a blonde hair colour and a blue eye colour is a SHG from Motala. [2] [3]"
See above. I see nothing to indicate here that the earliest blue eyed/blond individual known is an SHG. I also see nothing of Günther's proposal.
"These traits have also been found in individuals from later SHG populations like the
Pitted Ware culture.
[4]"
More nonsense. The study does not mention these traits. Hunan201p ( talk) 22:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
These are direct quotes from Torsten Günther et al (2018) and can be found in the author summary and in figure 4
"We demonstrate that Mesolithic Scandinavians had higher levels of light pigmentation variants compared to the respective source populations of the migrations, suggesting adaptation to low light levels and a surprising signal of genetic continuity in TMEM131, a gene that may be involved in long-term adaptation to the cold"
"All of the depigmentation variants at these three genes are in high frequency in SHGs in contrast to both WHGs and EHGs (Fig 4B). We conduct neutral simulations of the allele frequencies in an admixed SHG population to estimate p-values for observing these allele frequencies without selection (S9 Text). The p-values for all three SNPs are lower than 0.2; the combined p-value [54] for all three pigmentation SNPs is 0.028. Therefore, the unique configuration of the SHGs is not fully explained by the fact that SHGs are a mixture of EHGs and WHGs, but could rather be explained by a continued increase of the allele frequencies after the admixture event, likely caused by adaptation to high-latitude environments [50,52]."
I can't see any good reason to exclude this from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScoobyTrips ( talk • contribs) 14:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia: "Most of the Motala SHGs were found to have the depigmentation alleles SLC45A2 and SLC24A5.[7]"
No.
The reference given for this statement [7] is Mathieson 2015, which is "Mathieson, Iain (November 23, 2015). "Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians".
This is what the article actually says:
"The second strongest signal in our analysis is at the derived allele of rs16891982 in SLC45A2, which contributes to light skin pigmentation and is almost fixed in present-day Europeans but occurred at much lower frequency in ancient populations. In contrast, the derived allele of SLC24A5 that is the other major determinant of light skin pigmentation in modern Europe appears fixed in the Anatolian Neolithic, suggesting that its rapid increase in frequency to around 0.9 in Early Neolithic Europe was mostly due to migration (Extended Data Fig. 4)."
In other words, the 90% prevalence among the population of 2 derived alleles or homozygosity on gene SLC24A5 only came in with the expansion of the Early European Farmers of the Neolithic around 6,000 BC. It wasn't there in the Paleolithic or Mesolithic. Also, today's homozygosity for derived alleles knocking out skin pigmentation for gene SLC45A2 didn't come in until the migration of the Yamna pastoralists from the Pontic Steppes of Russia at the start of the Bronze Age. Today's 100% homozygosity for derived alleles on both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 didn't occur until some time after the start of the Bronze Age, around 2,000 BC.
Light skin pigmentation among modern Europeans is the result of near 100% presence of homozygosity for derived alleles on both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. That clearly didn't exist among the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, as there are higher levels of SLC45A2 although not as high as the Yamna, and absence of SLC24A5, which 100% prevalence is connected to the expansion of the Early European Farmers of the Neolithic. Prof. dr. Johannes Krause and colleagues (Reich, Paabo, etc.) reasonably presume that this modern combination happened some time after the rise of the Yamna of the Bronze Age (about 4,000 years BP). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTY9K1Q_Sbg&t=1165s 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:F518:65ED:580D:1E2 ( talk) 02:51, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Also here:
Wikipedia: "In a genetic study published in Nature Communications in January 2018, the remains of an SHG female at Motala, Sweden between 5750 BC and 5650 BC was analyzed. She was found to be carrying U5a2d and "substantial ANE ancestry". The study found that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the eastern Baltic also carried high frequencies of the HERC2, SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 alleles."
The reference given is "9. Mittnik 2018.", Mittnik, Alisa (January 30, 2018). "The genetic prehistory of the Baltic Sea region". Nature Communications. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789860/#MOESM1, with Supplementary Table 6 found here. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789860/bin/41467_2018_2825_MOESM1_ESM.pdf
This is what it shows: EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherers) and even Baltic Mesolithic show either 0% presence or 0 coverage. Most samples are from the Neolithic and Bronze Age. There is no evidence from this data that there was anything like today's homozygosity - or even heterozygosity - for SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 among Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, before the Neolithic. 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:A5FE:DBDF:E0E4:6FEF ( talk) 17:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
A second surprise is that, unlike closely related WHGs, the Motala samples have predominantly derived pigmentation alleles at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5. Sounds like a reasonable paraphrase, but could perhaps use some clarifications. Tewdar 19:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Similar to other European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, our Baltic foragers carry a high frequency of the derived HERC2 allele which codes for light iris colour, and like SHG and EHG they already possess an increased frequency of the derived alleles for SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, coding for lighter skin colour. Perhaps this could also be reworded slightly, but original interpretation of supplementary table data is probably not the best way to proceed here... Tewdar 20:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Increased frequency does not equate to today's 90% prevalence of 2 derived alleles (homozygosity) on SLC24A45 that came in with the Neolithic Early European Farmers- nobody suggested that or added that to the article, did they? Tewdar 09:31, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
The problem is that 1) the average reader doesn't know or appreciate the differenceOh. Well, perhaps you should have led with that. 😁 Maybe we could add more details from the supplementary data to clarify? I don't think the current text misrepresents the cited articles, but I suspect that Mittnik et al. are not only talking about the 'Baltic Mesolithic' individuals when they say 'Baltic foragers'. Tewdar 12:48, 12 February 2023 (UTC)