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Archive 1 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Anonymous users keep reverting the 0845 number and 0870 number pages and removing the link to SAYNOTO0870.COM. I feel that this link is legitimate as it is a informative site containing both alternatives to these numbers (which are usually geographic and therefore cheaper), as well as information and debate about the use of these numbers.
Instead of reverting this page and removing the link, please can you post here and inform me (as well as others) why you think this link should not be on the page. Also, post for the keeping of this link would be most appreciated.
If there is enough valid reason for removing the link, I will remove it. -- [Jam] [talk] 12:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
Thanks for your comments so far. Following Blowdart's comments, I've removed the actual paragraph from both pages and added a "See also" link. Hopefully the "anonymous" user will stop removing the link now, but we'll find out soon enough. -- [Jam] [talk] 21:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
0845 number and 0870 number have now been fully protected until the content dispute has been resolved. The sayno content is not currently on the page, but my notice about content being disputed is on the page. Hopefully that will direct people to this page for their input on it. ~~ [Jam] [talk] 22:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Unles the saynoto0870 link is put back the anonymous contributor has won without any justification. Most people just look at the main article, they don't go further. Logic says it goes back unless the anonymous contributor provides an argument. Otherwise pages can just be vandalised without consequences. From my point of view it is clearly not a commercial site but a campaigning site and completely relevant to the topic. I have no objection to counter arguments or links being shown. signed KJH —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.177.127.228 (
talk)
09:06, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
This would seem a very one-sided arguement, has anyone voiced an objection to the link in this talk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.25.130 ( talk) 17:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I, like many others believe that non-neutral and anti 08xx sites should not be included in the article which is supposed to be informative. Addition of any impartial and informative link is welcome. JXX. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.40.137 ( talk) 20:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Hold on, what about "neutral point of view" - I have an idea. Why not also add that "Some people believe that because of sites like saynoto0870 we are all paying more for calls as many companies have switched from 0870 to a more expensive 0871." Actually I think this should be included in main sayno article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesJJR ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
i am not sure why is this even being discussed? I think advertising links should be excluded as they have nothing to do with the informative and encyclopedic nature of the article, so i voted delete. ian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.111.155 ( talk) 16:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Neutral point of view does not require that organisations which take a stance on an issue cannot be referred to, it just requires that all major points of view be represented within the articles. As a notable player in the debate on 0870 numbers which is regularly mentioned in media articles on the subject, [1] it is appropriate that the SAYNOTO0870 website should be mentioned in the discussion of the controversies. If there are voices opposed to it (statements from BT, or companies which use these numbers), then they should be mentioned too. I won't be adding my name to the "vote" below though because Wikipedia doesn't work by voting (not least because there's nothing to stop the same person voting several times under different names or IP addresses), but by consensus. Iain99 Balderdash and piffle 16:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment Wikipedia is not a consumer advocate. Having said that, negative facts should not be whitewashed, but must be presented in a neutral manner. My personal opinion is that saynoto0870 is a good thing, it's an information resource that I've used personally. I don't believe that the inclusion of sites intended to provide consumer information is inherently bad, but some such sites contain excessive rhetoric and can be seen as attack sites, and those should not be linked to. If saynoto0870 were simply a list of alternative numbers, I would have no issues with including it, however it does also attempt to campaign against the use of non geographic numbers, and I don't believe WP is the place for soapboxes, even by linking to them. So when I remove my personal bias from the equation, I end up as a soft delete the links. DMcMPO11AAUK/ Talk/ Contribs 04:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Below is a table for casting your vote on whether or not the links to sayno and MoneySavingExpert should be kept on the pages. Please copy the last row and fill it in with your user name, view, and comment.
Edit 13:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC) - I should point out that this is a vote for the inclusion of links on the 0845 number and 0870 number pages, NOT the SAYNOTO0870.COM article.
Username | Keep, Delete, Neutral | Reason |
---|---|---|
JGXenite | Keep | I feel the link is justified. For the article to have a neutral point of view, we should be allowed to have links that (in general) express and oppose the use of 0845 and 0870 numbers. ~~ [Jam] [talk] 09:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC) |
JohnCD | Keep | Links are justified - they provide useful information. The only people who would want to suppress them are the call centres who make their money by keeping callers hanging endlessly on expensive lines. JohnCD 21:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC) |
Jake | Delete | Because such sites are not neutral and do not give the reader a balanced view. The only people who would want to have the link included are site admin and his moderators in order to promote their Adsense business venture. I have noting against MSE being included although I don't see it being relevant to the topic. |
Guinness2702 | Very weak keep | The site is only indirectly related to the subject (except perhaps for the controversy section), but still, I think having this link just barely improves Wikipedia so on balance (just), it should stay (at least until the controversy section has it's own article, at which point, it should probably move there). |
JamesJJR | Delete | The link presents Blatant Advertising (WP:CSD - gen crit 11) and as such it should be removed. The link belongs under it's own article. |
ian | Delete | i agree. the link is pure advertising venture and one sided view unrelated to the topic - so it should be removed. |
Blowdart | Weak Delete | Yea, the article is smacking more and more of spam more than anything else. Perhaps a formal AFD is in order for the sayno article itself |
Neon White | Delete | Seems like promotion, commercial site with adverising. If a more balanced link is needed. find a more encyclopedic link. |
Nathan | Delete | I suggest: If you need to advertise the web site please use Google AdWords. |
Martin | Keep | This website is relevant to the topic being discussed - it presents one side of the argument only, but that's the nature of the website. Websites representing the other side of the argument should/could just as easily be linked to. |
Repton3 | Keep | The saynoto0870 website is directly related to the topic of 0870 numbers, and actively and fairly deals with their impact, and their COST upon society. Although the name saynoto0870 suggest a one-sided negative bias, the active forums do contain some pro-0870 content. If a pro-0870 wiki-page or website were to exist, then I would also not have a problem with a link to that also appearing on the pages. |
Steve | Delete | Hi all. The web site is a disguised commercial venture giving unjustified non-encyclopedic one-sided view. Strong delete from me. |
Tom_Yates | Keep | SayNoTo0870 is a useful site from an informational standpoint. Yes, it has a bias, but I think Martin's right, above - if anyone can come forwards with a website putting the other viewpoint, we should link to that, too. Giving no information because it's too difficult to find a balancing counter-voice seems unhelpful. |
Beano | Keep | SayNoTo0870 is a useful site and extremely relevant to the topic. It's clear from the contributions in the forums there that many people object to 08xx numbers. There is no evidence that it is because of this site that greedy companies move to more profitable 0871s from 0870s. Yes it's unfortunate it has to rely on advertising but it is not an "objectionable amount". beano 14:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC) |
Spider77 | Delete | Can we please keep Wiki free of junk and spam. Let's work together and remove all advertising material and leave Wiki encyclopedic and accurate as it was intended to be. |
User:DMcMPO11AAUK | soft delete | The site isn't inherently bad, and is useful, but is also a soapbox |
Nev | Delete | There should be a reference (in the 'see also' sections of the 0870 and 0845 pages at least) to the saynoto0870 Wikipedia page as the content there is related, but I don't think a direct external link is necessary here. This can remain on the saynoto0870 page itself. Nev 08:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC) |
Snip1954 | Shift Delete | I partly agree with Nev, but I still would actually prefer to keep Wiki free of spam. |
User:Willadoog | Delete | This site is commercial. It makes the owner Daniel loads of money using click through adverts etc. It is also irresponsible and dangerous. The 0870 cost is partly used to pay for diverting the call to the correct geographic number (home and/or emergency). This means that by giving out homeworkers home numbers e.g. for the RSPCA and other charities calls are not diverted to the right place. This can threaten lives. |
Johnny Matell | Delete | If my vote still counts, the site is non-encyclopedic, advertising, commercial and irresponsible. This indeed can threaten lives. I am not sure why it's even suggested that it is included in Wikipedia. |
Flashman2008 | Keep | I have tried twice to add a note of warning to this article and it has twice been deleted. I simply feel that anyonme using alternative numbers which mostly are not verified needs to be careful. Imagine if a bad person were to input an alt number for your bank. The next time you give your password out could be to that person. No one seems to be thinking about this so I wanted the comment added. |
0845 number has now been unprotected. I've done a major overhaul of the page, mainly updating content and references. The only link to SAYNOTO0870.COM is in the form of a reference relating to alternative number searching (along with a reference to Martin's MoneySavingExpert.com). Unfortunately, an anonymous user has started reverting the (whole!) page again with the same excuse ("commercial links"). I know that a consensus has not been completely reached, but I felt that a reference was applicable. One or two people have mentioned a "see also" section with a link to the SAYNOTO0870.COM page - we've had that before and the page is still reverted by anonymous users. Any suggestions? ~~ [Jam] [talk] 09:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Saynoscreenshot.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Anonymous users keep reverting the 0845 number and 0870 number pages and removing the link to SAYNOTO0870.COM. I feel that this link is legitimate as it is a informative site containing both alternatives to these numbers (which are usually geographic and therefore cheaper), as well as information and debate about the use of these numbers.
Instead of reverting this page and removing the link, please can you post here and inform me (as well as others) why you think this link should not be on the page. Also, post for the keeping of this link would be most appreciated.
If there is enough valid reason for removing the link, I will remove it. -- [Jam] [talk] 12:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
Thanks for your comments so far. Following Blowdart's comments, I've removed the actual paragraph from both pages and added a "See also" link. Hopefully the "anonymous" user will stop removing the link now, but we'll find out soon enough. -- [Jam] [talk] 21:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
0845 number and 0870 number have now been fully protected until the content dispute has been resolved. The sayno content is not currently on the page, but my notice about content being disputed is on the page. Hopefully that will direct people to this page for their input on it. ~~ [Jam] [talk] 22:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Unles the saynoto0870 link is put back the anonymous contributor has won without any justification. Most people just look at the main article, they don't go further. Logic says it goes back unless the anonymous contributor provides an argument. Otherwise pages can just be vandalised without consequences. From my point of view it is clearly not a commercial site but a campaigning site and completely relevant to the topic. I have no objection to counter arguments or links being shown. signed KJH —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.177.127.228 (
talk)
09:06, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
This would seem a very one-sided arguement, has anyone voiced an objection to the link in this talk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.25.130 ( talk) 17:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I, like many others believe that non-neutral and anti 08xx sites should not be included in the article which is supposed to be informative. Addition of any impartial and informative link is welcome. JXX. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.40.137 ( talk) 20:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Hold on, what about "neutral point of view" - I have an idea. Why not also add that "Some people believe that because of sites like saynoto0870 we are all paying more for calls as many companies have switched from 0870 to a more expensive 0871." Actually I think this should be included in main sayno article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesJJR ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
i am not sure why is this even being discussed? I think advertising links should be excluded as they have nothing to do with the informative and encyclopedic nature of the article, so i voted delete. ian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.111.155 ( talk) 16:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Neutral point of view does not require that organisations which take a stance on an issue cannot be referred to, it just requires that all major points of view be represented within the articles. As a notable player in the debate on 0870 numbers which is regularly mentioned in media articles on the subject, [1] it is appropriate that the SAYNOTO0870 website should be mentioned in the discussion of the controversies. If there are voices opposed to it (statements from BT, or companies which use these numbers), then they should be mentioned too. I won't be adding my name to the "vote" below though because Wikipedia doesn't work by voting (not least because there's nothing to stop the same person voting several times under different names or IP addresses), but by consensus. Iain99 Balderdash and piffle 16:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment Wikipedia is not a consumer advocate. Having said that, negative facts should not be whitewashed, but must be presented in a neutral manner. My personal opinion is that saynoto0870 is a good thing, it's an information resource that I've used personally. I don't believe that the inclusion of sites intended to provide consumer information is inherently bad, but some such sites contain excessive rhetoric and can be seen as attack sites, and those should not be linked to. If saynoto0870 were simply a list of alternative numbers, I would have no issues with including it, however it does also attempt to campaign against the use of non geographic numbers, and I don't believe WP is the place for soapboxes, even by linking to them. So when I remove my personal bias from the equation, I end up as a soft delete the links. DMcMPO11AAUK/ Talk/ Contribs 04:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Below is a table for casting your vote on whether or not the links to sayno and MoneySavingExpert should be kept on the pages. Please copy the last row and fill it in with your user name, view, and comment.
Edit 13:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC) - I should point out that this is a vote for the inclusion of links on the 0845 number and 0870 number pages, NOT the SAYNOTO0870.COM article.
Username | Keep, Delete, Neutral | Reason |
---|---|---|
JGXenite | Keep | I feel the link is justified. For the article to have a neutral point of view, we should be allowed to have links that (in general) express and oppose the use of 0845 and 0870 numbers. ~~ [Jam] [talk] 09:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC) |
JohnCD | Keep | Links are justified - they provide useful information. The only people who would want to suppress them are the call centres who make their money by keeping callers hanging endlessly on expensive lines. JohnCD 21:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC) |
Jake | Delete | Because such sites are not neutral and do not give the reader a balanced view. The only people who would want to have the link included are site admin and his moderators in order to promote their Adsense business venture. I have noting against MSE being included although I don't see it being relevant to the topic. |
Guinness2702 | Very weak keep | The site is only indirectly related to the subject (except perhaps for the controversy section), but still, I think having this link just barely improves Wikipedia so on balance (just), it should stay (at least until the controversy section has it's own article, at which point, it should probably move there). |
JamesJJR | Delete | The link presents Blatant Advertising (WP:CSD - gen crit 11) and as such it should be removed. The link belongs under it's own article. |
ian | Delete | i agree. the link is pure advertising venture and one sided view unrelated to the topic - so it should be removed. |
Blowdart | Weak Delete | Yea, the article is smacking more and more of spam more than anything else. Perhaps a formal AFD is in order for the sayno article itself |
Neon White | Delete | Seems like promotion, commercial site with adverising. If a more balanced link is needed. find a more encyclopedic link. |
Nathan | Delete | I suggest: If you need to advertise the web site please use Google AdWords. |
Martin | Keep | This website is relevant to the topic being discussed - it presents one side of the argument only, but that's the nature of the website. Websites representing the other side of the argument should/could just as easily be linked to. |
Repton3 | Keep | The saynoto0870 website is directly related to the topic of 0870 numbers, and actively and fairly deals with their impact, and their COST upon society. Although the name saynoto0870 suggest a one-sided negative bias, the active forums do contain some pro-0870 content. If a pro-0870 wiki-page or website were to exist, then I would also not have a problem with a link to that also appearing on the pages. |
Steve | Delete | Hi all. The web site is a disguised commercial venture giving unjustified non-encyclopedic one-sided view. Strong delete from me. |
Tom_Yates | Keep | SayNoTo0870 is a useful site from an informational standpoint. Yes, it has a bias, but I think Martin's right, above - if anyone can come forwards with a website putting the other viewpoint, we should link to that, too. Giving no information because it's too difficult to find a balancing counter-voice seems unhelpful. |
Beano | Keep | SayNoTo0870 is a useful site and extremely relevant to the topic. It's clear from the contributions in the forums there that many people object to 08xx numbers. There is no evidence that it is because of this site that greedy companies move to more profitable 0871s from 0870s. Yes it's unfortunate it has to rely on advertising but it is not an "objectionable amount". beano 14:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC) |
Spider77 | Delete | Can we please keep Wiki free of junk and spam. Let's work together and remove all advertising material and leave Wiki encyclopedic and accurate as it was intended to be. |
User:DMcMPO11AAUK | soft delete | The site isn't inherently bad, and is useful, but is also a soapbox |
Nev | Delete | There should be a reference (in the 'see also' sections of the 0870 and 0845 pages at least) to the saynoto0870 Wikipedia page as the content there is related, but I don't think a direct external link is necessary here. This can remain on the saynoto0870 page itself. Nev 08:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC) |
Snip1954 | Shift Delete | I partly agree with Nev, but I still would actually prefer to keep Wiki free of spam. |
User:Willadoog | Delete | This site is commercial. It makes the owner Daniel loads of money using click through adverts etc. It is also irresponsible and dangerous. The 0870 cost is partly used to pay for diverting the call to the correct geographic number (home and/or emergency). This means that by giving out homeworkers home numbers e.g. for the RSPCA and other charities calls are not diverted to the right place. This can threaten lives. |
Johnny Matell | Delete | If my vote still counts, the site is non-encyclopedic, advertising, commercial and irresponsible. This indeed can threaten lives. I am not sure why it's even suggested that it is included in Wikipedia. |
Flashman2008 | Keep | I have tried twice to add a note of warning to this article and it has twice been deleted. I simply feel that anyonme using alternative numbers which mostly are not verified needs to be careful. Imagine if a bad person were to input an alt number for your bank. The next time you give your password out could be to that person. No one seems to be thinking about this so I wanted the comment added. |
0845 number has now been unprotected. I've done a major overhaul of the page, mainly updating content and references. The only link to SAYNOTO0870.COM is in the form of a reference relating to alternative number searching (along with a reference to Martin's MoneySavingExpert.com). Unfortunately, an anonymous user has started reverting the (whole!) page again with the same excuse ("commercial links"). I know that a consensus has not been completely reached, but I felt that a reference was applicable. One or two people have mentioned a "see also" section with a link to the SAYNOTO0870.COM page - we've had that before and the page is still reverted by anonymous users. Any suggestions? ~~ [Jam] [talk] 09:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Saynoscreenshot.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |