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I don't think enough weight has been given to the fact that suttee was very rarely practiced and judging by even european numbers, the numbers are probably far less than just regular murders or suicides. Furthermore, the practice was limited to the upperclass, who by all accounts, are a minority in India. the practice was also largely non-existant in the south. India is a big country, and many regions are far more diverse, culturally, linguistically, and religiously than among most European countries. To say that sati was widespread all over india would be to say that in the 20th century, Jews were persecuted by all Europeans, rather than just in Germany and Eastern Europe.
There is also the theory that the practice of suttee actually intensified during the muslim invasions and occupations because Widows were frequently targetted for abuse and remarriage by muslims, atleast the early arab conquerors. I am not sure of the veracity of this claim, anyone else with any other valid information?
I have not changed anything yet, but I plan to and would like to discuss it first. sganjam 21:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled about the parallel made to Scandinavia. I've heard of a single account from Viking Scandinavia which describes the death of a slave girl on her master's funeral pyre. However, the ritual seems to have been rather different since it involved her having intercourse with her master's kin / friends and her throat was slit before the fire was started, so she wasn't burned alive. The cases are related but I'm not sure the parallel is completely accurate. Thoughts anyone? Valentinian (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It is probably better to call it human sacrifice then comparing it to sati.
2007-03-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
The Yallajeeyam written by Yallabhatt(18 c AD?)contains the detailed manual /practical guide to performing Sati ritual. Here are some passages from 'Yallajeeyam' ('Dharmasastra concerning BrahmaMedha'(Death and Afterwards) Codified by Yalla Bhatta)(The book was a 1992 reprint in Telugu from Machilipatnam) :
1.In order to enable the departed soul of the father reach its intended destination(s), his son and others should bathe and worship the Brahmins before making the 'dasa-daana'( ten gifts /presents): 1.Heaven(Swargaloka)by donating Cow+Land +Gold 2.Apsarasa-loka > Maid-servants(daasi-daanam) 3.Reduction in Sins> Sesame seeds 4.Pleasures of Indra-loka&
Swarga -loka> Bed/Mattress
5 Heaven (Swarga-phalam)> Ghee/Clarified Butter 6.Moon (Chandraloka)> Cloth 7.Heaven(Swargaloka nimittam)> Grains 8.Indraloka Pleasures> Bedstead with Mattress
2 When a devout wife commits (sati)saha-gamana following her husband's death, she gains 30050000 (30.05 million)years of heaven-time for herself as well as her husband.
One who commits sati saves her husband from the vilest of sins he might have commited. Only the Pativrata can commit sati.exceptions are: The pregnant woman, the suckling mother, woman of loose morals. A Pativrata Woman of any varna can commit sati. She should take a bath and clean herself.Separate 'mantras' need not not be recited.The samskara ' being performed for the husband is sufficient for her. The procedure for Brahmamedha is the same as that laid out for Pitr-medha. However, after performing the homa with the 'pareyuvaagamsa'-mantra,complete the ten homas beginning with 'brahmana-eka hota' , say "bhartaasarbhriyamaanah",consult with the dead(pretaanu-mantranam),
say 'iyam-naari'(here is your woman), say 'sayaneendrasya'(here she lies down -beside you). The widow should be laid next to her dead husband(she is called the 'preta-patni') say 'suvarnaam gharmam devasyatvaa'and place the vessel made of gold on her two hands, say 'suvarnamgharmam' and place it on her face, say 'brahmendramagnim' -on her eyes, say 'satamniyutah' -the ears, 'suvarnamkosham'- the right nostril, 'indroraajah'- the left nostril, say the sentences beginning 'agniryajurrbhih'and place all the gold vessels on all parts of her body.All other remain vessels of gold should be placed on the pyre... say "mainamagne jyotishateebhih" and set the pyre on fire. conclude with 'sooryamtechakshuh','ajobhagah asahota' pour clarified butter 'Yaetasya 'prayasaayaswaahaa' pour more oil, follow the mantras:'praketunaa harigim harantam','asmanwateeh'-'apyaayasya' jump the pits,'dwayam tamasaspari taranirviswa' for the sun to settle, bathe after saying-'dhaatutustwa'.The rest of the procedure is as per 'pitr-medha'-rituals .
Dear IMC, I give below the complete details of the book: 'Yallajeeyam:-Sa-prayoga Dharma Sastram' Translated from Sanskrit by Late Chall LaxmiNrusimha (Narasimha)Sastri, edited by Vempati Kutumbayya Sastri.Published by Challa Nageswara Sastri for Sri Aryananda Mudraksharasala, Bandaru-Bachupeta(Present day Machilipatnam in the Krishna District of Andhra Pradesh)PIN 521 001.Year 1992 The chapter that was posted is actually called: 'Brahmamedhasangrahakaarikah'. Yalla-ji(Yallajee?) codified the Manual in Sanskrit in 18CAD(?) for the use of the followers of Apasthambha school towards performing 'prayaschitta'(penance) (in the event of death). The book in telugu contains the Sanskrit transliteration of the original text with commentary/translation in telugu.The book runs into 393 pages. If you have read 'The Perfect Wife'(Trayambakayajvan's code of conduct for women in 18th CAD ( in Tanjore),then 'Yalljeeyam' is one such text. The text throws several curious facts extant in those days. One chapter is on the rituals to be followed when a pregnant woman dies. Where the woman died with a nine month old fetus in her belly, then the text calls upon the husband and her relatives to cut open the belly, rescue the baby , wash it first and feed it and put it in the care of another woman who is herself a lactating mother . 61.1.252.136 18:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)harappa
The Sanskrit word satī in Devanagari is सती. Anyone who wants to add it, just cut & paste. Khirad 01:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"common understanding that many widows"
Though this probably seems stupid compared to all of the other arguments, a Simple English would come in handy. Just kinda throwin it out there
Just so that everyone knows, if anything in this article happens to have a chance to be cited from www.hindunet.org/wwwboard/mandir_manthan/messages/381.html Then please remove material from that site. The cite is made from someone who probably isnt Hindu, and is also probably insecure. Nearly all of the information from that cite is opinion. If there isnt any connection between the two definitions, then just dicount this comment. Hornet101 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was No move. Duja ► 10:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Sati (practice) → Suttee — Proper title per WP:UE. Suttee is unambiguous and is used major dictionaries and encyclopedias in Commonwealth and American English including Britannica [2], Columbia [3], Encarta [4], and others [5] [6] (and even Wiktionary [7]).
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Reasons for keeping the spelling 'sati' - Modern Indian usage is largely based on the phonetic (and therefore better) spelling, sati, not suttee. See for instance, the spelling in
With regard to the references to Encarta, Brittanica, et.c. to support the name suttee; note that for all these (necessarily) it is a minor topic, and the spelling is likely to be conserved in this situation. For Brittanica in particular, the usage has survived since at least the 1911 version [12]. This 1911 encyclopaedia was used to seed a fair bit of Wikipedia's content, but the usage and spelling of many of the names and terms in it has been modernised wherever necessary. It should take place here as well.
Imc 18:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I don't think enough weight has been given to the fact that suttee was very rarely practiced and judging by even european numbers, the numbers are probably far less than just regular murders or suicides. Furthermore, the practice was limited to the upperclass, who by all accounts, are a minority in India. the practice was also largely non-existant in the south. India is a big country, and many regions are far more diverse, culturally, linguistically, and religiously than among most European countries. To say that sati was widespread all over india would be to say that in the 20th century, Jews were persecuted by all Europeans, rather than just in Germany and Eastern Europe.
There is also the theory that the practice of suttee actually intensified during the muslim invasions and occupations because Widows were frequently targetted for abuse and remarriage by muslims, atleast the early arab conquerors. I am not sure of the veracity of this claim, anyone else with any other valid information?
I have not changed anything yet, but I plan to and would like to discuss it first. sganjam 21:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled about the parallel made to Scandinavia. I've heard of a single account from Viking Scandinavia which describes the death of a slave girl on her master's funeral pyre. However, the ritual seems to have been rather different since it involved her having intercourse with her master's kin / friends and her throat was slit before the fire was started, so she wasn't burned alive. The cases are related but I'm not sure the parallel is completely accurate. Thoughts anyone? Valentinian (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It is probably better to call it human sacrifice then comparing it to sati.
2007-03-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
The Yallajeeyam written by Yallabhatt(18 c AD?)contains the detailed manual /practical guide to performing Sati ritual. Here are some passages from 'Yallajeeyam' ('Dharmasastra concerning BrahmaMedha'(Death and Afterwards) Codified by Yalla Bhatta)(The book was a 1992 reprint in Telugu from Machilipatnam) :
1.In order to enable the departed soul of the father reach its intended destination(s), his son and others should bathe and worship the Brahmins before making the 'dasa-daana'( ten gifts /presents): 1.Heaven(Swargaloka)by donating Cow+Land +Gold 2.Apsarasa-loka > Maid-servants(daasi-daanam) 3.Reduction in Sins> Sesame seeds 4.Pleasures of Indra-loka&
Swarga -loka> Bed/Mattress
5 Heaven (Swarga-phalam)> Ghee/Clarified Butter 6.Moon (Chandraloka)> Cloth 7.Heaven(Swargaloka nimittam)> Grains 8.Indraloka Pleasures> Bedstead with Mattress
2 When a devout wife commits (sati)saha-gamana following her husband's death, she gains 30050000 (30.05 million)years of heaven-time for herself as well as her husband.
One who commits sati saves her husband from the vilest of sins he might have commited. Only the Pativrata can commit sati.exceptions are: The pregnant woman, the suckling mother, woman of loose morals. A Pativrata Woman of any varna can commit sati. She should take a bath and clean herself.Separate 'mantras' need not not be recited.The samskara ' being performed for the husband is sufficient for her. The procedure for Brahmamedha is the same as that laid out for Pitr-medha. However, after performing the homa with the 'pareyuvaagamsa'-mantra,complete the ten homas beginning with 'brahmana-eka hota' , say "bhartaasarbhriyamaanah",consult with the dead(pretaanu-mantranam),
say 'iyam-naari'(here is your woman), say 'sayaneendrasya'(here she lies down -beside you). The widow should be laid next to her dead husband(she is called the 'preta-patni') say 'suvarnaam gharmam devasyatvaa'and place the vessel made of gold on her two hands, say 'suvarnamgharmam' and place it on her face, say 'brahmendramagnim' -on her eyes, say 'satamniyutah' -the ears, 'suvarnamkosham'- the right nostril, 'indroraajah'- the left nostril, say the sentences beginning 'agniryajurrbhih'and place all the gold vessels on all parts of her body.All other remain vessels of gold should be placed on the pyre... say "mainamagne jyotishateebhih" and set the pyre on fire. conclude with 'sooryamtechakshuh','ajobhagah asahota' pour clarified butter 'Yaetasya 'prayasaayaswaahaa' pour more oil, follow the mantras:'praketunaa harigim harantam','asmanwateeh'-'apyaayasya' jump the pits,'dwayam tamasaspari taranirviswa' for the sun to settle, bathe after saying-'dhaatutustwa'.The rest of the procedure is as per 'pitr-medha'-rituals .
Dear IMC, I give below the complete details of the book: 'Yallajeeyam:-Sa-prayoga Dharma Sastram' Translated from Sanskrit by Late Chall LaxmiNrusimha (Narasimha)Sastri, edited by Vempati Kutumbayya Sastri.Published by Challa Nageswara Sastri for Sri Aryananda Mudraksharasala, Bandaru-Bachupeta(Present day Machilipatnam in the Krishna District of Andhra Pradesh)PIN 521 001.Year 1992 The chapter that was posted is actually called: 'Brahmamedhasangrahakaarikah'. Yalla-ji(Yallajee?) codified the Manual in Sanskrit in 18CAD(?) for the use of the followers of Apasthambha school towards performing 'prayaschitta'(penance) (in the event of death). The book in telugu contains the Sanskrit transliteration of the original text with commentary/translation in telugu.The book runs into 393 pages. If you have read 'The Perfect Wife'(Trayambakayajvan's code of conduct for women in 18th CAD ( in Tanjore),then 'Yalljeeyam' is one such text. The text throws several curious facts extant in those days. One chapter is on the rituals to be followed when a pregnant woman dies. Where the woman died with a nine month old fetus in her belly, then the text calls upon the husband and her relatives to cut open the belly, rescue the baby , wash it first and feed it and put it in the care of another woman who is herself a lactating mother . 61.1.252.136 18:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)harappa
The Sanskrit word satī in Devanagari is सती. Anyone who wants to add it, just cut & paste. Khirad 01:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"common understanding that many widows"
Though this probably seems stupid compared to all of the other arguments, a Simple English would come in handy. Just kinda throwin it out there
Just so that everyone knows, if anything in this article happens to have a chance to be cited from www.hindunet.org/wwwboard/mandir_manthan/messages/381.html Then please remove material from that site. The cite is made from someone who probably isnt Hindu, and is also probably insecure. Nearly all of the information from that cite is opinion. If there isnt any connection between the two definitions, then just dicount this comment. Hornet101 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was No move. Duja ► 10:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Sati (practice) → Suttee — Proper title per WP:UE. Suttee is unambiguous and is used major dictionaries and encyclopedias in Commonwealth and American English including Britannica [2], Columbia [3], Encarta [4], and others [5] [6] (and even Wiktionary [7]).
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Reasons for keeping the spelling 'sati' - Modern Indian usage is largely based on the phonetic (and therefore better) spelling, sati, not suttee. See for instance, the spelling in
With regard to the references to Encarta, Brittanica, et.c. to support the name suttee; note that for all these (necessarily) it is a minor topic, and the spelling is likely to be conserved in this situation. For Brittanica in particular, the usage has survived since at least the 1911 version [12]. This 1911 encyclopaedia was used to seed a fair bit of Wikipedia's content, but the usage and spelling of many of the names and terms in it has been modernised wherever necessary. It should take place here as well.
Imc 18:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)