This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Andries is requesting a citation stating: "Kreydick's statement cannot be retrieved from the clerk of court and hence breaks wikipedia policy verifiability." It is not my fault if Andries cannot obtain these public court records. I obtained them: View Them Here. As one can see, these are actual scans to actual public court records. Therefore, I suggest Andries take out his request for citation. SSS108 talk- email 00:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
No lawyer can give out court records that are not public. I obtained them the same way I obtained the self-dismissed court records. You do the homework yourself. I provided actual scans to these public court records and if you do not accept them, that is your problem. Not mine. Remove your demand for a citation or I will. SSS108 talk- email 03:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you get the opinion of other editors. I already provided scans to public court records that come from a certified shorthand reporter for the court. That's all I need to do to support this reference. You have the scans in front of your face and deny them because you couldn't obtain them. That is your problem. Not mine. Ask the court how to obtain them. I am not your secretary. SSS108 talk- email 03:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, do you have problems reading? The name of the court is clearly stated on the records. They have a website. Do the research yourself. 1+1=2 SSS108 talk- email 04:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Court records are easily accessible in the US, Andries. You just contact the court clerk. and ask You can do that online at: https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/OnlineServices/CivilImages/index.asp. Concerning your tone of voice, and given the ArbCom case, I friendly suggestion would be that you guys disengage until the ArbCom case makes its ruling. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, so you have not attempted to get the court records yourself, contact the court or make any other basic enquiries about the court records before accusing me of violating Wikipedia:verifiability policy?
The scanned copies clearly show: 1) The name of the court; 2) The court case number; 3) The date; 4) The place of the deposition; 5) The time of the deposition; 6) The name of witness; 7) The name and signature of the certified shorthand reporter; 8) The name of the plaintiff, 9) The name of the defendent and 10) The name of the court case. The reference on the SSB article clearly states: "Alaya Rahm vs. Sathya Sai Baba Society, filed in the Superior Court of California on January 6th 2005, County Of Orange - USA, Case No. 05cc01931". Despite all this easily verifiable information, Andries has the audacity to state: "If I used information from a book then I also have to give at least a book title and author name and preferrably ISBN nr". All the relevant information needed is provided on the scans and on the Wikipedia reference, contrary to Andries assertion.
Therefore, the citation is being removed pending an actual inquiry not based on speculation or un-named "others" questionable efforts. SSS108 talk- email 05:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, usually when someone blames another person for breaking Wikipedia policy, they cite factual data (including names). Care to tell me the name to these "other people" and how they allegedly tried to verify the court records? SSS108 talk- email 07:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I subscribed to
http://www.courtca.com/home.html - which website claims to be the No. 1 search facility for all US Court Records and I searched extensively for any depositions made in the Alaya Rahm case. My username there was dc98fd. No record of any deposition by Lewis Kreydick was found, not any reference whatever to the name of Lewis Kreydick. I contacted the support service of Court Records at detective@supporthelp.net for assistance, but they were also unable to find the materials I was seeking.
Further, the data is not available on any other website found where US Court Records are available, such as at
http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search.cfm?dist=0 when the correct case number is entered (i.e. 05CC01931). None of the Keydrick materials are formally available court documents, since - as is clear from the Court Record of self-dismissal by A. Rahm - they were not presented in court and the case was dropped. Therefore they are privy to the plaintiff and defendents and their lawyers, which means they are not official, independent sources. A signed statement from the Clerk of Court that these depositions can be regarded as official and public would otherwise be required. All these references should therefore be removed from the Sathya Sai Baba Wiki page.
ProEdits
20:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It appears, once again, that I have to do the footwork since Andries and Robert Priddy (aka ProEdits) do not know how to properly search for court records. Go to the Superior Court Of California Website → Click on Case Info → Click On "Case" → Enter the Case Number: 05cc01931 → All of the pertinent information about Alaya Rahm's self-dismissed court case are provided. No "subscription" needed. Using Priddy's faulty method, one cannot get any court records whatsoever. I would duplicate this information, but it is prohibited by the terms and conditions on the court case website. I hope this puts to rest Anti-Sai Activist's relentless attempts to remove this information even though actual scans to actual court records have been provided by me to back up this self-dismissed lawsuit. SSS108 talk- email 16:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
None of the court records are provided. You have to pay for them and request them to see them. I got the records and provided actual scans and you still say they are not verfiable. That is your problem, not mine. Robert Priddy made great efforts and ended up empty handed. I found the relevant information within a couple of minutes. SSS108 talk- email 16:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Based on ProEdits comments, he was unable to verify any court records. Not just Kreydicks (take a look at the link he provided). And as I said before, I have the actual court records. I scanned them and provided them here and you still say they are unverfiable. Of course, you are upset about this because it argues against your POV. SSS108 talk- email 16:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
ProEdits did not have extensive communication with the court clerks. He tried to obtain the court record information from court-record sites and apparently failed. As I have already shown, the court-record information exists and can be requested because they are now public record. I have already given you all the information you need to obtain the records. Next, you'll be asking me to purchase them for you. I have provided all details and even scans and you demand more. This is your problem, not mine. If you think you are right, time to get opinions from other editors and find a consensus. SSS108 talk- email 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Gerald ‘Joe’ Moreno (SSS108) makes links to highly slanderous pages against me. It is fair to point this out, because I basically agree with jossi’s comment under ‘Tone of this Conversation’. However, since I have been attacked heavily here and Wikipedia is chronically unable to remove such texts or block the slanderers once and for all, I feel I do at least have a moral right to refute arguments directed against me, not least also in defense of one who have suffered terribly at the hands of Sai Baba (Alaya Rahm). So here goes:- I gave a link to a Court web page, but never suggested that it contained the text of the court records – I gave the link PRECISELY to show that those records are NOT available on that website! See this once again: "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application.”
The reference provided for the last edit is from Rick Ross' website and does not have any information about the original source. The citation is referred to be from The Times, but The Times archive does not have such article. See: [ [2]. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I searched the Times archives for the year 2001 under Dominic Kennedy's name and it appears the Suicide, sex and the guru article was either misnamed or it was a subtitle as the articles I found for that date by Kennedy were as follows:
The Times MON 27 AUG 2001 Ed: 4M Pg: 3 Word Count: 872 'I sought peace and couldn't find it' Michael Pender, a student, hoped that Sai Baba would be able to cure him of HIV. Like thousands of devotees from around the world, Mr Pender went on a pilgrimage to Sai Baba's ashram in Puttaparthi, southern India, expecting to find magic and divinit...
The Times
MON 27 AUG 2001
Ed: 4M
Pg: 3
Word Count: 652 Three died after putting their faith in guru
Three British men have died mysteriously after becoming followers of an Indian mystic famed as a "god man" and miracle worker. Sai Baba's activities are being studied by the Foreign Office which is considering issuing an unprecedented warning against...
Very odd that there appear to be two articles listed on the exact same page for the exact same date, one article having 872 words and the other, 652.
Freelanceresearch 09:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
It's true. That article is not listed in The Times archive. Only two are: Click on "Free Search". Do a search for "suicide, sex and the guru" and nothing shows up. Therefore Andries, unless you can provide a verifiable reference, it is going to be removed as per Wikipedia:verifiability (which you should have no problem with considering your standards in upholding Wikipedia:verifiability: See Court Record Discussion. SSS108 talk- email 02:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Times provides summaries to archived articles. That article is not listed. The other two are. So it not in their archives and you cannot prove it exists. The links you cited do not provide a means to verify the article. SSS108 talk- email 06:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with SSS108. The two articles listed for that date do not match the title of the one claimed so we have no proof of the actual date of that article. The url date (2001295442) looks like it may have been the 29th of May, not 27th of August but since it is not in the archives it cannot be proven and why it is missing is a mystery, if in fact it existed. Contacting the author may be the only way to find out the true status of that article. Freelanceresearch 08:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the burden of proof is on you. Why aren't you attempting to get the hard copy? Once again (not sure how many times I have to say this) one cannot request the hard copy from The Times because it is not in their archives to request. Maybe we need a Dutch translator to make it clearer? SSS108 talk- email 19:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Just go to any decent University Library or major Public Library and you can verify the hard copy version. Or one can write to Dominic Kennedy, c/o The Times, and he will verify it himself. But perhaps Lisa and Joe think he is a blatant liar who pretends he has written this article and that it is only his 'original research' or that he is 'only' a journalist? --
84.208.99.96
15:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the statement that oiling genitals is a Hindu ritual. This has been discussed many times outside of Wikipedia and proponents are always unable to back up this statement with clear reputable sources. Andries 16:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed with Andries, this disgusting practice has no reputable authority in Hinduism and would horrify 99.99 percent of all Indians.-- Palwan 21:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey , what the hell happened to this section!!! Some vandal took it away. Don't worry folks it will be back and better than before. Count on it! --
Palwan
22:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I haven't seen any proof from credible sources that Sai Baba is "oiling" genitals. Credible sources I know say oil is put below the navel (emotional center) and that is all. Many healers use oil. I use it in healings all the time. Message therapists use it. It is well known that oil has conductive properties. Only people with dirty minds want to make something sexual of it.
Freelanceresearch
21:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Andries but unless a witness was "there" when it happened, it cannot be verified from a second-hand source. Just because a person makes a statement doesn't mean he was there when it happened or even knows what the actual truth is. Your standards of proof are VERY flimsy and would NOT hold up in a court of law. Not to mention you continually change your standards of proof to suit your anti-Sai agenda. Your documentation in this regard is VERY flimsy to say the least. Freelanceresearch 23:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Any reason that takes up half the article? Can the notes be summarized? Bakaman Bakatalk 18:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Starting with a reversal of SSS which introdudes a giant citation into the article and broke the references.
And archiving the talk page seems also needed.
Pjacobi 16:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
And for the record, I did not break the references as Pjocobi implied. It was done by Askolnick ref. SSS108 talk- email 19:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
See WP:BLP "Material that is related to their notability, such as court filings of someone notable in part for being involved in legal disputes, are allowable, as are public records such as graduation dates, dates of marriage licenses and the like, where they are publicly available and where that information has first been reported by a verifiable secondary source." Andries 16:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
They don't have to be. They are publicly available and verifiable. Court records are cited throughout Wikipedia without being referenced to a secondary source. You will have to seek a change of policy first. SSS108 talk- email 19:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I know what you are trying to do Andries. I think we need other editors to weigh in before you attempt to interpret Wikipedia policy to suit and push your POV. SSS108 talk- email 04:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
So, what's the specific issue in question here? -- Alecmconroy 10:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
See how sloppy Andries is with his facts? He and his group of Anti-Sai Activists have tried to change the facts and push their bias by saying "Sathya Sai Bookshop" instead of the actual name cited in court records "Sathya Sai Baba Society". The Society is more than just a bookstore and Andries is trying to push the very same bias on this site that he and his associates push on their Anti-Sai-Baba sites (proving once again that Andries cannot factually relate information without slanting it with his own POV). Alaya Rahm made very serious allegations against Sathya Sai Baba in the following references: Divine Downfall, Secret Swami, Seduced and India Today. It is relevant that a lawsuit Alaya Rahm filed and pursued for 16 months was self-dismissed by him with prejudice. Despite rampant claims by Anti-Sai-Baba sites (like the one run by Andries) to there being numerous victims, not even one single victim came forward to support or defend Alaya Rahm. His legal suit belly-flopped. Therefore, this information (taken from actual court records) is wholly relevant to the serious allegations made in the Sathya Sai Baba article and it should be included on the premise that these court records are reliable sources and verfiable. Andries and ProEdits (both Anti-Sai-Baba Activists) want this information removed because it severely compromises the agenda they wish to push on Wikipedia and on their Anti-Sai-Baba Sites (ProEdits has no less than 3 Anti-Sai Sites to his name and had 6 others deleted for defamatory content). SSS108 talk- email 12:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This from someone who's website was threatened with a lawsuit for defamatory content (admittedly: ref)! SSS108 talk- email 13:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
It has to do with your personal attack against me, i.e., "I consider you highly incompetent and irresponsible in interpretating information related to SSB". SSS108 talk- email 13:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If that is the standard that will be implemented, it will be implemented across the board. Including the removal of the reference to Priddy from the primary source Kevin Shepherd, which has never been referenced by reliable secondary sources. SSS108 talk- email 13:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Shepherd, author of 'Investigating the Sai Baba Movement' Dorchester, 2005.
ISBN
0 9525089 3 1 deals there with four main Sai Baba related figures: Shirdi Sai, Upasani Maharaj, Meher baba and Sathya Sai Baba. His publisher states among much else: "His Gurus Rediscovered (1968) was the first book to stress the Sufi background of Shirdi Sai Baba, and also the sequel of Upasani Maharaj. He has also written nine other various works..."
These monographs include:
Psychology in Science: Towards a Universal Science of Human Progress
A Sufi Matriarch: Hazrat Babajan
Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal (Cambridge 1988)
Gurus Rediscovered: Biographies of Sai Baba of Shirdi & Upasni Maharaj of Sakori
From Oppression to Freedom: A Study of the Kaivani Gnostics (Cambridge)
Meaning in Anthropos: Anthropography as an Interdisciplinary Science of Culture
The Ressurection of Philosophy (Cambridge)
Meaning in Anthropos: Anthropography as an Interdisciplinary Science of Culture (Cambridge)
Minds and Sociocultures Vol. One: (Zoroastrianism and the Indian Religions)
and Vol. Two: Zoroanstrianism, Ishraqi philosophy, Sufism, Ramakrishna, Tantric Buddhism, Vogelin, and other subjects.
Some Philosophical Critiques and Appraisals
Pointed Observations
(see also
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Shepherd,%20Kevin)
In short Kevin Shepherd has all the marks of being a real 'expert in comparative religion'! Of course, his book is a primary source on the Sathya Sai Baba article. The reason Moreno [SSS108] disputes this is simply because he desparately wants to remove my name as quoted by Shepherd from the article at all costs. Moreno is still pushing his agenda and POV!--
ProEdits
16:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see in the current version citations to the court records, nor have I found such in the history I've reviewed. We have instead citations to California statutes - those do not prove that the court case even happened. To cite anything based on the court cases, we need citations to the court case records. Per the guideline on relable sources, "We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher." [Emphasis in original.] Unless/until the court documents and records are published by a reliable publisher - which for legal records would be a publisher that publishes all cases for a given jurisdiction, we can't use material from the court documents. As there is no such citation at this time, the relevant clause of WP:BLP is "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion." I will therefore remove the material as not adequately sourced. Should citations to the court records, as published by a reliable publisher, become available, this evaluation will no longer be relevant. GRBerry 13:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
For crying out loud, Andries. I have told you numerous times. I am not going to repeat myself yet again. ProEdits did not even ask for the records from the proper court! He attempted to get it from secondary sources, i.e., online court-record sites. SSS108 talk- email 13:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries, do you have a mental block or something? There was NO "extensive communication with the court". ProEdits cited the sources for his alleged investigation and they are NOT from any "actual court". They are from online court-record websites. Get your facts right and stop trying to distort the facts with inaccurate statements. The court record number on Kreydick's deposition is exactly the same as the self-dismissed lawsuit from Alaya Rahm. It is part of the same record. If you don't understand English, I suggest you have someone translate this for you. I already provided the link to the court site in question and I will not spoon-feed you. SSS108 talk- email 14:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again: Reference. And if Priddy really had extensive communication with the court, you should be providing me with information that Priddy sent you to see if he really did. Apparently, neither of you know which court to talk to. That much is clear. SSS108 talk- email 15:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
SSS108, please do not let your frustration get the best of you. Please remain WP:CIVIL in addressing fellow editors. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Say what you like Andries. The fact remains that I could not have obtained these court records except through the court. I made the effort and got the records. You have not. Period. End of discussion. ProEdits never mentioned contacting the court directly. Now you are claiming he has although you cannot even tell me the name to the correct court (as evidenced by your ceaseless requests for contact information). SSS108 talk- email 15:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Several persons have contacted the Clerk of Court directly on our behalf at Orange County Court. A former devotee living in California visited the Orange County Court in August (2006) and obtained all the available public documents relating to the Alaya Rahm self-dismissal case. They are:-
-CASE ID 05CCO1931 REGISTER OF ACTIONS REPORT - PAGES 1 TO 5 [RUN DAT 21-JUN-2006 RUN TIME 11.26 AM
-PROOF OF SERVICE (c.c.p. SECTION 1013 (A),2015.5 (REQUEST FOR DISMISSAL)
-APRIL 20 2006 FILED =- SELF-DISMISSAL - COURT CONSENT
-SERVICE LIST
Not one of these documents includes any depositions by the Sathya Sai Society, OR ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH A DEPOSITION. Lewis Kreydick was not named in any of the documents. I have scans of all the documents, as paid for to the Clerk of Orange County Court. User:ProEdits 03-Sept.-06
Concerning Bill Aitken : I find no independent, recognised sources on comparative religion recognising Bill Aitken's work, not to mention acclaiming him as an expert. He is simply a writer with personal opinions. Since there is no such public evidence that Bill Aitken is recognised as an "expert on comparative religion", other than that he called himself this in an article written by himself, I am also removing this unwarranted claim from the main page. User:ProEdits 03-Sept.-06
ProEdits, your personal attacks comprised of defamatory and slanderous comments against me have been removed. If you persist in these defamatory attacks, I will file a complaint againt you on Wikipedia. I suggest you talk to Andries about reliable sources. It does not matter what your original research allegedly uncovered about Bill Aitken. The fact remains that a reliable source published information stating that Bill Aitken is a expert on comparative religion [4]. Therefore, it can be referenced as such. SSS108 talk- email 18:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Unlike your site, my site has never been threatened with legal action for defamatory content. SSS108 talk- email 18:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I restored the statement by user:ProEdits that user:SSS108 inappropriately removed under the pretext of removing a personal attack against him hereunder. Andries
You have had every opportunity to keep the discussion on course and you have instead chose the path of personal attacks. You have no one else to blame but yourself. SSS108 talk- email 19:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Moreno began his defamations and attacks on me long before I even responded to him, which I then did over 2 years later with a single paragraph. He continues his defamation here, with the link which he had to remove from my Robert Priddy Wiki page (see his slander-related link at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Robert_Priddy&oldid=58646403). where he also began his defamation specifically on Wikipedia against me many months ago. He avoids the issue, that he has NO PROOF that the Kreydick material is in the independent public domain. Therefore I shall continue to remove this material in accordance with Wiki policy on sources. -- ProEdits 19:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Bill Aitken's status is not that of an 'expert on comparative religion' - there is absolutely no proof. Moreno has no answer to this fact, so it has been removed again, and will continue to be removed until any reasonable proof may be forthcoming.-- 84.208.99.96 19:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Moreno persists in posting unverified materials about the Kreydick deposition. He thereby demonstrates his complete inability to prove that this deposition was obtained by him from Orange County Court and is available as an independent public documentation. Depositions are not handed out by the Clerk of Court or other Court officials for free, they have to be paid for, and a signed receipt alone can prove this occurred. Otherwise the only conclusion is that the materials wer supplied to Moreno by persons belonging to or acting on behalf of the Sathya Sai Society.
Therefore continued removal of this material.--
ProEdits
20:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This appears to me to be an attempt to remove information on a technicality, a technicality which actually warrants the inculsion of this material. It appears to have been cited by a secondary source. Anything not verified to the above mentioned sources should be pruned mercilessly, but attempts to remove the cited material are little more than vandalism. savidan (talk) (e@) 20:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that Priddy and Andries are "demanding" documentation concerning the court case (which has been provided and according to the Calumny article verified by Robert Baskin, a licensed attorney) when we have been asking them to provide documentation concerning the alleged affidavits they've been claiming to have and chiming about for years but can never come up with! Talk about duplicitous and hypocritical. Let's see you guys walk your talk for once instead of trying to have it all your way and playing your continuous mind games with regard to the rules. Freelanceresearch 02:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
More red herrings from Moreno: I have never tried to substitute anything for the removed subjective materials of Kreydick. I am not presenting any 'original research' on the article, where I have only inserted about 4 words in all!--
ProEdits
14:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not a journalist - though I do write for newspapers and journals and am on the board of a quarterly cultural magazine distributed nationally in Norway - but I am a professional academic researcher since decades. I do not need to prove that the view expressed in the source 'This Week' is other than a self-made claim by Bill Aitken himself about being "an expert in comparative religion" Go to the source article and you will notice that it is part of his article, hence attributed to him, not to the editors or to anyone else. Besides this source is merely an on-line journal and as such should be eliminated according to the arbitration recently received. It has to go.-- ProEdits 13:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I am also going to be contacting the court myself on Tuesday. Monday is a holiday here in the USA. I also want to point out how Andries has no problem when ProEdits (Robert Priddy) removes referenced material but raises a huge fuss when others do it with his sources. SSS108 talk- email 04:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Weren't you just arguing that you wanted to include an article about Sai Baba even though no one could verify its existence in online documents, Andries? Now you are arguing that you want to remove data because you cannot find the documents online? You continually want it both ways as long as it benefits you. I looked at the Superior Court page on Alaya Rahm's case and it CLEARLY shows that Alaya asked for a dismissal of his case. Now are you going to argue that? The court disclaimer says that some documents may be missing.
" Information Disclaimer The information provided on and obtained from this site does not constitute the official record of Orange County Superior Court. This information is provided as a service to the general public. Any user of this information is hereby advised that it is being provided "as is". The information provided may be subject to errors or omissions. Visitors to this site agree that the Court is not liable for errors or omissions or any of the information provided. Visitors further consent to access the record only as instructed by the Court and consent to the Court's monitoring of access to the records. Copyright and other proprietary rights may apply to information in a case file absent an express grant of additional rights by the holder of the copyright or other proprietary right. Use of such information is permissible only to the extent permitted by law or court order, and any use inconsistent with proprietary rights is prohibited."
Please let us know when you decide to be consistent with the rules Andries. Freelanceresearch 06:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As the above 'Information Disclaimer' points out "Visitors further consent to access the record only as instructed by the Court and consent to the Court's monitoring of access to the records." Where, therefore, has the Court instructed and given consent on the monitoring of access to the Kreydick deposition record? I am acting within the guidelines of Wikipedia in removing reference to this and will continue to do so until independent and controllable proof is provided that the Clerk of Court can provide such documents, in which unlikely case I shall require that exact information on how such documents were provided, so that I can also obtain them. I am interested in the result of Moreno's contacts with the Clerk of Court and expect him in the interests of truth to provide documentation of the response he gets, whether pro or contra his case.
The fact STILL remains, there is no independently sourced information about the Lewis Kreydick deposition.
Andries is evidently acting consistently with the rules now, whatever he may have argued in the past. SSS108 (Gerald 'Joe' Moreno) is an extremely active pro-Sai activist with four pro-Sai websites containing altogether many hundreds of pages pushing his POV wholly one-sidedly (as witnessed here on Wikipedia) as he also does on several blogs and numerous bulletin boards, most especially and in sexually-explicit language on Yahoo Groups sathyasaibaba2. He writes all those pages and entries himself, whereas Andries has written less than 5% of the materials on ExBaba.com. Apropos, for the record, ExBaba.com was indeed threatened with legal action by someone who was unable to proceed because the entire threat was an empty bluff. This speaks rather in favour of the website's integrity. --
ProEdits
07:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh give us a break Priddy. Are you going to nit-pick us to death with your avoidance tactics now? Since WHEN were most of your sleazy accusations EVER independently sourced, much less corroborated? All public records can be posted for public viewing. If you don't believe me go to the smokingun website and look at all the court documents and public records they have there. What's wrong, are you afraid people might find out you guys are all bluff and no buster? Better be careful, people are getting awfully tired of your "any sleaze goes" attitude and like David Icke, someday you may have to pay the piper. Freelanceresearch 10:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It is not our business - a SSS108 [Gerald Moreno] sophistically claims - to provide any attested statements from anyone from the court stating the documents do not exist. We do not deny their existence, but we assert they have not been released as public information BY THE COURT, hence as independent sources (i.e. not as Sai Baba propaganda on Sai-devoted web pages). Even so, the deposition of Kreydick is not even central to the case. and played no part whatever in the decision to drop the litigation - the fact is that it was discontinued voluntarily due to what can be termed legal technicalities. The real 'smoking gun' in the Alaya Rahm lawsuit is found at
http://www.saiguru.net/english/news/060730_Alaya_Rahm_lawsuit.htm where the real reasons for the self-dismissal are stated. So far I am still unconvinced due to lack of reliable evidence that the depositions made by the Sathya Sai Society are independently available as public documents. THAT is the entire issue... it is quite simple to understand if one is not blinded by bias and wilful obstructionism. IF they have been released by consent of the judge as is required according to the Court website, then they are public documents. They are NOT available on the Internet according to the statement "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application." [see
https://ocapps.occourts.org/CivilPub/DisplayCaseInformation.do?caseNbr=05CC01931&personNbr=21629&src=case_src_dt] A representative of the exposé visited the Court and obtained on payment of a fee what he understood was ALL the documents concerning Alaya Rahm available there (as already stated above). We are not the ones who need to be careful - empty threats are not the stock in trade of Sai critics - as we do not break the laws on slander as Freelanceresearch has done on Yahoo groups sathyasaibaba2 endlessly(as conscientiousobjector2000)... As usual, she makes big claims without anything that can be called supporting evidence - circumstantial or otherwise, as is seen above. I am stating fact, not slander without using derogatory terms like 'sleazy'. My web pages shows masses of independent sources - see
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/index.htm --
ProEdits
12:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I wish to correct my former statement that Lisa de Witt was banned from Wikipedia. I find I was misinformed by someone who commented thus, but - having checked thoroughly - I find no evidence of it. I am removing my unfortunate mistake. Interesting that Lisa de Witt admits that she and Moreno are co-responsible for the mean-spirited atmosphere here - this was also obvious long, long before I entered this page with some fairly restrained comments about them. However, Moreno was banned, n'est ce pas? Now Moreno and de Witt can rail on here and on Yahoo groups about how Priddy actually made a mistake and admitted it!-- 84.208.99.96 14:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I have NEVER been banned from using wikipedia! See what I mean Piacobe (or however your name is spelled). Joe and I are not the ones responsible for the mean-spirited atmosphere here. Wherever the anti-Sais travel their toxic behavior and agenda of hate and lies goes with them. When is wikipedia going to stop these hatemongers from trying to use wikipedia for their own personal soapbox?
Freelanceresearch
23:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Block Log For Freelanceresearch. Freelanceresearch has never been "banned from Wikipedia". Another shameless lie from ProEdits (Robert Priddy).
SSS108
talk-
email
03:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I gave a link to a Court web page, but never suggested that it contained the text of the court records – I gave the link PRECISELY to show that those records are NOT available on that website! See this once again: "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application.”
Why Moreno also repeats his argument about the existence of the Kreydick deposition is beyond me – I have to my knowledge never denied its existence. The question is whether it is available to the public as a document from the independent County Court. Let us see whether this – despite all our efforts to obtain it – nevertheless can be proved. Moreno has not – as requested – proved that he obtained the deposition from the County Court, such as in the form of a signed receipt for payment… rather than from the defendants or their representatives. This is a crucial fact as to sourcing this material. Who told him of the existence of this case and the materials so quickly – when only the lawyers, the judge and the plaintiffs and defendants knew about it? Nothing was printed about it or found with any obvious search terms using Google. Was he not informed of it and how to come by the court documents by the Sathya Sai Society or their proxies? It is fair to comment here too, that – as the Sathya Sai Society is well aware - Moreno has from the start gone to great lengths to attack and undermine Alaya Rahm’s allegations of being sexually abused by Sai Baba, also defending Dr. Goldstein and the Society. Yet Alaya Rahm’s allegations stand as ever, and the BBC has promulgated them worldwide without Sai Baba’s supporters being able to raise a case against them, though they tried legal threats to broadcasters in the US and Canada.
I am a member of the International JuST Group, and was not acting “under the guise of JuST” – there was a JuST working committee of 9 persons, conferring with the Rahm family and their lawyer, Brelsford. The date of the court case given was not provided by me. I can’t be bothered to check it even as it is of so little significance, except to Moreno and Co., of course. Moreno is trying to minimise the major import of the statement which shows that the Kreydick evidence was totally irrelevant in the decision to dismiss the case. Moreno and the Sai authorities are trying to make out that this was so – it is a clever ploy, no doubt. But is not truthful and certainly not proper material for an encyclopedia, in my view. What does jossi say to that? As to the exact date of the first approach by our team to the County Court, it was about two months ago, despite Moreno’s false conclusion from the fact it was not mentioned here earlier. This is no big deal. -- ProEdits 11:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
...Is way off:
If you are unable to abide by these policies, you would be better off not participating. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I basically agree with jossi’s comment here. However, since I have been attacked so heavily here and on other Wiki talk pages, [including the Robert Priddy Wiki page] - with repeated links to utterly slanderous pages made against me by Gerald ‘Joe’ Moreno (SSS108)- and since Wikipedia is so far chronically unable to remove such texts or block these attacks once and for all, I feel I do at least have a moral right to refute arguments directed against me, and not least also in defense of one who have suffered terribly at the hands of Sai Baba (Alaya Rahm) and will be further injured by a subjective account by a Sai follower, if it is not truly an independent public document. Is it not fair - under these circumstances - to point this out? --
ProEdits
11:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Yet again, despite jossi’s comments – Moreno goes on the rampage with more slander against me and Alaya Rahm.
I have already posted a withdrawal of my erroneous statement that de Witt had been banned, but he still maintains I was lying, when an e-mail sent me mixed up de Witt and Moreno (the latter having been banned). This shows his entire approach towards me and also towards any criticism of Sai Baba. Moreno calls every clerical error or minor mistake - and also almost any statement he does not like - a lie. ‘Blatant lie’ is a term he and de Witt favour a lot too in their baseless and/or trivial allegations. Nowhere have I called Moreno a follower of Sai Baba (though I originally thought he was two years back), but he is most obviously and blatantly a defender of Sai Baba and his Organisation – going to enormous lengths to blacken every ex-follower who criticises Sai Baba - calling out of hand all the brave young men who stood forth liars, stalking them and posting dirt about them. He also adds every adulatory source - invariably biased pro-Sai sources - that he can find to the SSB article. He has also praised Sai baba on his website for giving him 'wonderful experiences', including his account on his website of having his pants taken down and being oiled by Sai baba on his the 'lower stomach' during his private interview. What does all that make him, I wonder? Is it not just a question of definition!
Please take note carefully again that the above is entirely facts not slander, nor lies. He also distorts other facts. The Kreydick testimony in no way affects the truthfulness of Alaya Rahm’s claims of sexual abuse by Sai Baba, considering Alaya could not even tell his own parents for ages, so why would he tell a self-appointed ‘advisor’ when even Sai Baba had warned the family not to associate with him! Alaya was in a tremendous dilemma and suffered greatly, which he had to hide for the thousands of sycophants surrounding him, which he has explained adequately on the BBC film ‘The Secret Swami’.
As an excuse for his constant attacks on my person, note that Moreno again claims I have slandered Sai Baba! What kind of defence is that! I maintain I have not slandered Sai Baba, of course, because in every case I am most careful on my web pages to weight every statement with exactness, and I invariably have sound backing – either documentary, testimony or from personal observation or overwhelming circumstantial evidence. I am willing to stand for my writings in any court of law – where dozens of allegedly sexually abuse victims, including genuine Indian ex-students who have contacted me with their experiences - would be put forward under court. In view of realising this, no official in the Sai Organisation or any Sai Baba related institutions has ever accused me of slander against anyone. Another sound reason for their reticence in not making any kind of formal complaint against my writings, is that they can’t stand the revealing publicity that would ensue, such as world media attention (especially in the UK due to the apparent royal connections) and a close follow-up BBC World documentary!--
ProEdits
14:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I do hope that one or two searchers for truth will penetrate deep into this arcane repository of "knowledge" to read this exchange of paragraphs (and the whole entry on Sathya Sai Baba) to see the weaknesses in the Wiki system and its vulnerability. Ombudswiki, 24 September 2006.
This case is now closed and the result has been published at the link above.
For the Arbitration Committee. 03:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there anybody, who is just a Wikipedia editor, watching this page and interested in turning this article in an encyclopedic article, like something that a real encyclopedia would write? Then I would ask all apologetics and apostats to step aside and perform major surgery. But I'm not masochistic enough to proceed alone. -- Pjacobi 07:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand why you would not like to be in the firing line for the kind of slander I am subjected to, but rest assured you would receive no personal attacks from me if you were to try. But correction of provably wrong facts, yes. However, the question is how anyone can write an objective article on Sathya Sai Baba who has not studied his words fully and deeply, or had direct experience of his life and activities, which are a subject of the greatest controversy? My view is that the article is not too bad considering the situation (if it does not include the highly subjective and speculative Kreydick deposition materials) ... both sides of the controversy are represented and at least one is not fed a seemingly 'neutral' package of what would surely be largely superficial materials. --
ProEdits
11:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipiedia is not a place for advocating either pro or con viewpoints, to convert neophytes, to discourage followers, or to "alert the public". For that you have the pro sites and anti websites. To describe your "direct experience", publish a blog or a website. Wikipedia is not a place for
original research. Involved editors, unless they come to terms with this reality, will continue to suffer aggravation and stress that leads to poisoning of these discussions and to unavoidable personal attacks. The next steps should be to cleanup the article by applying the resolution of the arbitration committee as described above, and applying our content policies.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
14:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Pjacobi, thank you for your comments and clarifications. I find them honest and forthcoming. As I said before, I will step aside if experienced editors want to take over.
Nevertheless, I am deeply concerned about Andries selective reinterpretation of Wikipedia policy, saying that sources must be referenced by reliable secondary sources, yet he sees no problem with citing primary sources (as in the case of Kevin Shephard's reference to Robert Priddy). Until Andries steps aside, neither will I. SSS108 talk- email 19:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Robert Priddy is NOT a reliable source Andries. Very little of his information can be verified because it is SECOND-HAND (otherwise known as gossip). Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand the difference between gossip and a credible source whose statements can be verified. just because someone claims something doesn't mean they are telling the truth. Freelanceresearch 23:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Unlike Lisa de Witt (alias: Freelanceresearch), I have been a lifelong academic researcher and I understand a great deal about source materials (ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Priddy). There is a little secondhand information in my hundreds of web pages, but it is always presented exactly for what it is, if so, also often with by accompanying links or references. The vast majority of my writings are either sourced to other documents (not least in my critiques of Sathya Sai Baba's own discourses, which are referenced thoroughly)or my direct first-hand experiences through two decades when I was mostly the national leader of the Sai Organisation in Norway and was also frequent visitor to the ashrams, where I had numerous personal meetings with Sai Baba and some of his closest confidantes. So much for de Witt's with all her endless unsourced, third-hand gossip and totally unrestrained slander, sexual language and name calling! (on
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sathyasaibaba2/messages2 as conscientiousobjector2000.--
ProEdits
12:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
SSS108, can you not yourself "please stop whining and babbling on this Talk Page. Before you came along, the discussions were relatively on-topic." You have long been engaging in personal attacks all over the place, including on Wikipedia, and you continue in the above! I am not pushing my agenda here like your pusing of your pro-Sai agenda. You talk about fairness - that is a travesty of anything remotely like your attitude! The Aitken material is merely an on-line webpage - which is not a primary source- and the contents are subjective judgements made by Aitken about critics and many other matters - not encyclopaedic material by any count. Hence removal was entirely justified. It should be removed, and I ask jossi to state a sensible opinion on this - though I can see he is clearly biased towards you (viz. his absurd doubting of The Times as a reliable source!) and also Pjacobi and GRBerry, if you please.--
ProEdits
16:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Hard to believe that you are actually in your seventies and still act like this, Priddy. Why do you always play the victim when you are the bully who starts the mudslinging to begin with? For all the supposed experience you claim to have in doing research you have very little to show for it as well as your ethics. Maybe you should try researching just why you are so angry and feel you have to take it out on Sai Baba or anybody who disagrees with you and confronts you with your sloppy research and bullying attitude. Freelanceresearch 10:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Who requested the RFC? Where is it at? When was it made? And where on this talk page was the RFC made known? Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 21:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
ArbCom ruled:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba Therefore, all critical external links must be removed from "in the article" in accordance with this ruling. All these links contain original research and personal accounts. SSS108 talk- email 01:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Jossie, I informed FloNight about it. Hopefully, she can give a clarification. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 15:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The point is that Wikipedia is NOT to be used as a tabloid soapbox for personal opinions. Sai Baba has NEVER been PROVEN in a court of law to be a fraud OR a child molestor. Accusations and opinions are NOT proof of criminal behavior. Thank you Arbitration Committee for resolving what should have been a common sense issue to begin with. Freelanceresearch 20:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no problem sourcing that SSB is widely regarded as a fraud and a charlatan, it's just not entering the domain of crime and court decisions. -- Pjacobi 19:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Baloney Andries, rationalists aka athiests have a conflict of interest and are NOT "reliable" sources when they don't even believe in God to begin with! And then there are the evangelical Christians who perceive Baba as the anti-Christ. Get real Andries, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Please read your wikipedia rules for questionable sources (with conflict of interest) Andries. Of course, you should know this by now but you are more interested in pushing your agenda. There is VOLUMUS documentation both medically and by governmment officials in India regarding Baba's miracles and anyone who says this isn't so is a blatant liar. And for the record pjacobe, I am not against well-documented sources but the anti-Sais continually try to use questionable and unreliable sources like Robert Priddy who blatantly lie as you have seen on this board. Very little of their claims can be reliably documented. In other words they are accusations based on emotionalism and it's getting VERY old. Freelanceresearch 20:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
NO, I will NOT step aside. I have made it VERY clear I am here to make sure Andries follows Wikipedia guidelines and will not touch the article until I know he is contained and made to quit propagandizing and bullying me and others like you just attempted to do. Andries did this when I first came here and it didn't work. People can look at the record and see very clearly that Andries attempts to bully others into submission and monopolize the article by playing mind games with the rules. Andries of all people should know and be able to follow the rules by now but continues to willingly violate them in favor of your POV. Trust me piacobe , you won't win this one. I am not vandalizing the article and when I do edit I follow Wikipedia guidelines.
Freelanceresearch
22:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries once again re-inserted a link to his Anti-Sai Website before getting an answer or obtaining a consensus from FloNight. See Thread. Andries also attempted to justify his re-insertion of links to his Anti-Sai Website by citing the proposed decisions: Reference. For Andries information, that link is not ArbCom's final ruling. Andries needs to substantiate his actions by referring to The Final Decisions and not the one's that were formerly proposed. SSS108 talk- email 17:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The footnotes section is running at 46K, and an article recommended overall size is 50Kb. Quoting long portions from a published work, can be construed as a copyright violation. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
<<<outdentYou are painting the issue as if it is an option between having a "convenience link" that is contrary to the ArbCom ruling and having a long quote that violates copyright. What Pjacobi and I are arguing that there is another, more viable option, and that is to summarize the reliable source's viewpoint and provide the source. That works remarkably well for WP so far. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Pjacobi, a discussion was already had about Andries translations to Dutch articles. His translations were found to be accurate, albeit selective and wholly one-sided. Regarding media articles, I will wait for Andries to respond before I do. Most of the major media articles are already linked to in the refs. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 15:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Pjacobi, can you tell me why you are keeping the "Other Websites"? Not sure why this is being kept if media articles are not. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 18:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries, I fear you are totally misreading WP:V and WP:CITE. A citation is giving the properly formatted source in the references section, with WP:CITE discussing three possible citation styles. We are using Wikipedia:Footnotes. What does the footnore contain?
See? Not a small or large quote from the publication. What you want to use from the cited source goes into the main article prose, usually in your own words, in some delicate cases as as short (!) verbatim quote. -- Pjacobi 19:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Cum grano salis I've now removed all cites from the references and split all footnotes holding multiple references. I've begin collapsing multiple references to the same article using the name="xyz" method. There will arise a problem: I'd would be very happy to collapsing all references to Erlendurs book into one, but that would lose the page number information. Are there workarounds known for this situation. -- Pjacobi 18:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Andries is requesting a citation stating: "Kreydick's statement cannot be retrieved from the clerk of court and hence breaks wikipedia policy verifiability." It is not my fault if Andries cannot obtain these public court records. I obtained them: View Them Here. As one can see, these are actual scans to actual public court records. Therefore, I suggest Andries take out his request for citation. SSS108 talk- email 00:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
No lawyer can give out court records that are not public. I obtained them the same way I obtained the self-dismissed court records. You do the homework yourself. I provided actual scans to these public court records and if you do not accept them, that is your problem. Not mine. Remove your demand for a citation or I will. SSS108 talk- email 03:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you get the opinion of other editors. I already provided scans to public court records that come from a certified shorthand reporter for the court. That's all I need to do to support this reference. You have the scans in front of your face and deny them because you couldn't obtain them. That is your problem. Not mine. Ask the court how to obtain them. I am not your secretary. SSS108 talk- email 03:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, do you have problems reading? The name of the court is clearly stated on the records. They have a website. Do the research yourself. 1+1=2 SSS108 talk- email 04:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Court records are easily accessible in the US, Andries. You just contact the court clerk. and ask You can do that online at: https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/OnlineServices/CivilImages/index.asp. Concerning your tone of voice, and given the ArbCom case, I friendly suggestion would be that you guys disengage until the ArbCom case makes its ruling. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, so you have not attempted to get the court records yourself, contact the court or make any other basic enquiries about the court records before accusing me of violating Wikipedia:verifiability policy?
The scanned copies clearly show: 1) The name of the court; 2) The court case number; 3) The date; 4) The place of the deposition; 5) The time of the deposition; 6) The name of witness; 7) The name and signature of the certified shorthand reporter; 8) The name of the plaintiff, 9) The name of the defendent and 10) The name of the court case. The reference on the SSB article clearly states: "Alaya Rahm vs. Sathya Sai Baba Society, filed in the Superior Court of California on January 6th 2005, County Of Orange - USA, Case No. 05cc01931". Despite all this easily verifiable information, Andries has the audacity to state: "If I used information from a book then I also have to give at least a book title and author name and preferrably ISBN nr". All the relevant information needed is provided on the scans and on the Wikipedia reference, contrary to Andries assertion.
Therefore, the citation is being removed pending an actual inquiry not based on speculation or un-named "others" questionable efforts. SSS108 talk- email 05:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Andries, usually when someone blames another person for breaking Wikipedia policy, they cite factual data (including names). Care to tell me the name to these "other people" and how they allegedly tried to verify the court records? SSS108 talk- email 07:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I subscribed to
http://www.courtca.com/home.html - which website claims to be the No. 1 search facility for all US Court Records and I searched extensively for any depositions made in the Alaya Rahm case. My username there was dc98fd. No record of any deposition by Lewis Kreydick was found, not any reference whatever to the name of Lewis Kreydick. I contacted the support service of Court Records at detective@supporthelp.net for assistance, but they were also unable to find the materials I was seeking.
Further, the data is not available on any other website found where US Court Records are available, such as at
http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search.cfm?dist=0 when the correct case number is entered (i.e. 05CC01931). None of the Keydrick materials are formally available court documents, since - as is clear from the Court Record of self-dismissal by A. Rahm - they were not presented in court and the case was dropped. Therefore they are privy to the plaintiff and defendents and their lawyers, which means they are not official, independent sources. A signed statement from the Clerk of Court that these depositions can be regarded as official and public would otherwise be required. All these references should therefore be removed from the Sathya Sai Baba Wiki page.
ProEdits
20:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It appears, once again, that I have to do the footwork since Andries and Robert Priddy (aka ProEdits) do not know how to properly search for court records. Go to the Superior Court Of California Website → Click on Case Info → Click On "Case" → Enter the Case Number: 05cc01931 → All of the pertinent information about Alaya Rahm's self-dismissed court case are provided. No "subscription" needed. Using Priddy's faulty method, one cannot get any court records whatsoever. I would duplicate this information, but it is prohibited by the terms and conditions on the court case website. I hope this puts to rest Anti-Sai Activist's relentless attempts to remove this information even though actual scans to actual court records have been provided by me to back up this self-dismissed lawsuit. SSS108 talk- email 16:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
None of the court records are provided. You have to pay for them and request them to see them. I got the records and provided actual scans and you still say they are not verfiable. That is your problem, not mine. Robert Priddy made great efforts and ended up empty handed. I found the relevant information within a couple of minutes. SSS108 talk- email 16:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Based on ProEdits comments, he was unable to verify any court records. Not just Kreydicks (take a look at the link he provided). And as I said before, I have the actual court records. I scanned them and provided them here and you still say they are unverfiable. Of course, you are upset about this because it argues against your POV. SSS108 talk- email 16:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
ProEdits did not have extensive communication with the court clerks. He tried to obtain the court record information from court-record sites and apparently failed. As I have already shown, the court-record information exists and can be requested because they are now public record. I have already given you all the information you need to obtain the records. Next, you'll be asking me to purchase them for you. I have provided all details and even scans and you demand more. This is your problem, not mine. If you think you are right, time to get opinions from other editors and find a consensus. SSS108 talk- email 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Gerald ‘Joe’ Moreno (SSS108) makes links to highly slanderous pages against me. It is fair to point this out, because I basically agree with jossi’s comment under ‘Tone of this Conversation’. However, since I have been attacked heavily here and Wikipedia is chronically unable to remove such texts or block the slanderers once and for all, I feel I do at least have a moral right to refute arguments directed against me, not least also in defense of one who have suffered terribly at the hands of Sai Baba (Alaya Rahm). So here goes:- I gave a link to a Court web page, but never suggested that it contained the text of the court records – I gave the link PRECISELY to show that those records are NOT available on that website! See this once again: "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application.”
The reference provided for the last edit is from Rick Ross' website and does not have any information about the original source. The citation is referred to be from The Times, but The Times archive does not have such article. See: [ [2]. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I searched the Times archives for the year 2001 under Dominic Kennedy's name and it appears the Suicide, sex and the guru article was either misnamed or it was a subtitle as the articles I found for that date by Kennedy were as follows:
The Times MON 27 AUG 2001 Ed: 4M Pg: 3 Word Count: 872 'I sought peace and couldn't find it' Michael Pender, a student, hoped that Sai Baba would be able to cure him of HIV. Like thousands of devotees from around the world, Mr Pender went on a pilgrimage to Sai Baba's ashram in Puttaparthi, southern India, expecting to find magic and divinit...
The Times
MON 27 AUG 2001
Ed: 4M
Pg: 3
Word Count: 652 Three died after putting their faith in guru
Three British men have died mysteriously after becoming followers of an Indian mystic famed as a "god man" and miracle worker. Sai Baba's activities are being studied by the Foreign Office which is considering issuing an unprecedented warning against...
Very odd that there appear to be two articles listed on the exact same page for the exact same date, one article having 872 words and the other, 652.
Freelanceresearch 09:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
It's true. That article is not listed in The Times archive. Only two are: Click on "Free Search". Do a search for "suicide, sex and the guru" and nothing shows up. Therefore Andries, unless you can provide a verifiable reference, it is going to be removed as per Wikipedia:verifiability (which you should have no problem with considering your standards in upholding Wikipedia:verifiability: See Court Record Discussion. SSS108 talk- email 02:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Times provides summaries to archived articles. That article is not listed. The other two are. So it not in their archives and you cannot prove it exists. The links you cited do not provide a means to verify the article. SSS108 talk- email 06:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with SSS108. The two articles listed for that date do not match the title of the one claimed so we have no proof of the actual date of that article. The url date (2001295442) looks like it may have been the 29th of May, not 27th of August but since it is not in the archives it cannot be proven and why it is missing is a mystery, if in fact it existed. Contacting the author may be the only way to find out the true status of that article. Freelanceresearch 08:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the burden of proof is on you. Why aren't you attempting to get the hard copy? Once again (not sure how many times I have to say this) one cannot request the hard copy from The Times because it is not in their archives to request. Maybe we need a Dutch translator to make it clearer? SSS108 talk- email 19:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Just go to any decent University Library or major Public Library and you can verify the hard copy version. Or one can write to Dominic Kennedy, c/o The Times, and he will verify it himself. But perhaps Lisa and Joe think he is a blatant liar who pretends he has written this article and that it is only his 'original research' or that he is 'only' a journalist? --
84.208.99.96
15:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the statement that oiling genitals is a Hindu ritual. This has been discussed many times outside of Wikipedia and proponents are always unable to back up this statement with clear reputable sources. Andries 16:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed with Andries, this disgusting practice has no reputable authority in Hinduism and would horrify 99.99 percent of all Indians.-- Palwan 21:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey , what the hell happened to this section!!! Some vandal took it away. Don't worry folks it will be back and better than before. Count on it! --
Palwan
22:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I haven't seen any proof from credible sources that Sai Baba is "oiling" genitals. Credible sources I know say oil is put below the navel (emotional center) and that is all. Many healers use oil. I use it in healings all the time. Message therapists use it. It is well known that oil has conductive properties. Only people with dirty minds want to make something sexual of it.
Freelanceresearch
21:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Andries but unless a witness was "there" when it happened, it cannot be verified from a second-hand source. Just because a person makes a statement doesn't mean he was there when it happened or even knows what the actual truth is. Your standards of proof are VERY flimsy and would NOT hold up in a court of law. Not to mention you continually change your standards of proof to suit your anti-Sai agenda. Your documentation in this regard is VERY flimsy to say the least. Freelanceresearch 23:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Any reason that takes up half the article? Can the notes be summarized? Bakaman Bakatalk 18:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Starting with a reversal of SSS which introdudes a giant citation into the article and broke the references.
And archiving the talk page seems also needed.
Pjacobi 16:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
And for the record, I did not break the references as Pjocobi implied. It was done by Askolnick ref. SSS108 talk- email 19:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
See WP:BLP "Material that is related to their notability, such as court filings of someone notable in part for being involved in legal disputes, are allowable, as are public records such as graduation dates, dates of marriage licenses and the like, where they are publicly available and where that information has first been reported by a verifiable secondary source." Andries 16:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
They don't have to be. They are publicly available and verifiable. Court records are cited throughout Wikipedia without being referenced to a secondary source. You will have to seek a change of policy first. SSS108 talk- email 19:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I know what you are trying to do Andries. I think we need other editors to weigh in before you attempt to interpret Wikipedia policy to suit and push your POV. SSS108 talk- email 04:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
So, what's the specific issue in question here? -- Alecmconroy 10:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
See how sloppy Andries is with his facts? He and his group of Anti-Sai Activists have tried to change the facts and push their bias by saying "Sathya Sai Bookshop" instead of the actual name cited in court records "Sathya Sai Baba Society". The Society is more than just a bookstore and Andries is trying to push the very same bias on this site that he and his associates push on their Anti-Sai-Baba sites (proving once again that Andries cannot factually relate information without slanting it with his own POV). Alaya Rahm made very serious allegations against Sathya Sai Baba in the following references: Divine Downfall, Secret Swami, Seduced and India Today. It is relevant that a lawsuit Alaya Rahm filed and pursued for 16 months was self-dismissed by him with prejudice. Despite rampant claims by Anti-Sai-Baba sites (like the one run by Andries) to there being numerous victims, not even one single victim came forward to support or defend Alaya Rahm. His legal suit belly-flopped. Therefore, this information (taken from actual court records) is wholly relevant to the serious allegations made in the Sathya Sai Baba article and it should be included on the premise that these court records are reliable sources and verfiable. Andries and ProEdits (both Anti-Sai-Baba Activists) want this information removed because it severely compromises the agenda they wish to push on Wikipedia and on their Anti-Sai-Baba Sites (ProEdits has no less than 3 Anti-Sai Sites to his name and had 6 others deleted for defamatory content). SSS108 talk- email 12:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This from someone who's website was threatened with a lawsuit for defamatory content (admittedly: ref)! SSS108 talk- email 13:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
It has to do with your personal attack against me, i.e., "I consider you highly incompetent and irresponsible in interpretating information related to SSB". SSS108 talk- email 13:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If that is the standard that will be implemented, it will be implemented across the board. Including the removal of the reference to Priddy from the primary source Kevin Shepherd, which has never been referenced by reliable secondary sources. SSS108 talk- email 13:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Shepherd, author of 'Investigating the Sai Baba Movement' Dorchester, 2005.
ISBN
0 9525089 3 1 deals there with four main Sai Baba related figures: Shirdi Sai, Upasani Maharaj, Meher baba and Sathya Sai Baba. His publisher states among much else: "His Gurus Rediscovered (1968) was the first book to stress the Sufi background of Shirdi Sai Baba, and also the sequel of Upasani Maharaj. He has also written nine other various works..."
These monographs include:
Psychology in Science: Towards a Universal Science of Human Progress
A Sufi Matriarch: Hazrat Babajan
Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal (Cambridge 1988)
Gurus Rediscovered: Biographies of Sai Baba of Shirdi & Upasni Maharaj of Sakori
From Oppression to Freedom: A Study of the Kaivani Gnostics (Cambridge)
Meaning in Anthropos: Anthropography as an Interdisciplinary Science of Culture
The Ressurection of Philosophy (Cambridge)
Meaning in Anthropos: Anthropography as an Interdisciplinary Science of Culture (Cambridge)
Minds and Sociocultures Vol. One: (Zoroastrianism and the Indian Religions)
and Vol. Two: Zoroanstrianism, Ishraqi philosophy, Sufism, Ramakrishna, Tantric Buddhism, Vogelin, and other subjects.
Some Philosophical Critiques and Appraisals
Pointed Observations
(see also
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Shepherd,%20Kevin)
In short Kevin Shepherd has all the marks of being a real 'expert in comparative religion'! Of course, his book is a primary source on the Sathya Sai Baba article. The reason Moreno [SSS108] disputes this is simply because he desparately wants to remove my name as quoted by Shepherd from the article at all costs. Moreno is still pushing his agenda and POV!--
ProEdits
16:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see in the current version citations to the court records, nor have I found such in the history I've reviewed. We have instead citations to California statutes - those do not prove that the court case even happened. To cite anything based on the court cases, we need citations to the court case records. Per the guideline on relable sources, "We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher." [Emphasis in original.] Unless/until the court documents and records are published by a reliable publisher - which for legal records would be a publisher that publishes all cases for a given jurisdiction, we can't use material from the court documents. As there is no such citation at this time, the relevant clause of WP:BLP is "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion." I will therefore remove the material as not adequately sourced. Should citations to the court records, as published by a reliable publisher, become available, this evaluation will no longer be relevant. GRBerry 13:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
For crying out loud, Andries. I have told you numerous times. I am not going to repeat myself yet again. ProEdits did not even ask for the records from the proper court! He attempted to get it from secondary sources, i.e., online court-record sites. SSS108 talk- email 13:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries, do you have a mental block or something? There was NO "extensive communication with the court". ProEdits cited the sources for his alleged investigation and they are NOT from any "actual court". They are from online court-record websites. Get your facts right and stop trying to distort the facts with inaccurate statements. The court record number on Kreydick's deposition is exactly the same as the self-dismissed lawsuit from Alaya Rahm. It is part of the same record. If you don't understand English, I suggest you have someone translate this for you. I already provided the link to the court site in question and I will not spoon-feed you. SSS108 talk- email 14:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again: Reference. And if Priddy really had extensive communication with the court, you should be providing me with information that Priddy sent you to see if he really did. Apparently, neither of you know which court to talk to. That much is clear. SSS108 talk- email 15:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
SSS108, please do not let your frustration get the best of you. Please remain WP:CIVIL in addressing fellow editors. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Say what you like Andries. The fact remains that I could not have obtained these court records except through the court. I made the effort and got the records. You have not. Period. End of discussion. ProEdits never mentioned contacting the court directly. Now you are claiming he has although you cannot even tell me the name to the correct court (as evidenced by your ceaseless requests for contact information). SSS108 talk- email 15:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Several persons have contacted the Clerk of Court directly on our behalf at Orange County Court. A former devotee living in California visited the Orange County Court in August (2006) and obtained all the available public documents relating to the Alaya Rahm self-dismissal case. They are:-
-CASE ID 05CCO1931 REGISTER OF ACTIONS REPORT - PAGES 1 TO 5 [RUN DAT 21-JUN-2006 RUN TIME 11.26 AM
-PROOF OF SERVICE (c.c.p. SECTION 1013 (A),2015.5 (REQUEST FOR DISMISSAL)
-APRIL 20 2006 FILED =- SELF-DISMISSAL - COURT CONSENT
-SERVICE LIST
Not one of these documents includes any depositions by the Sathya Sai Society, OR ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH A DEPOSITION. Lewis Kreydick was not named in any of the documents. I have scans of all the documents, as paid for to the Clerk of Orange County Court. User:ProEdits 03-Sept.-06
Concerning Bill Aitken : I find no independent, recognised sources on comparative religion recognising Bill Aitken's work, not to mention acclaiming him as an expert. He is simply a writer with personal opinions. Since there is no such public evidence that Bill Aitken is recognised as an "expert on comparative religion", other than that he called himself this in an article written by himself, I am also removing this unwarranted claim from the main page. User:ProEdits 03-Sept.-06
ProEdits, your personal attacks comprised of defamatory and slanderous comments against me have been removed. If you persist in these defamatory attacks, I will file a complaint againt you on Wikipedia. I suggest you talk to Andries about reliable sources. It does not matter what your original research allegedly uncovered about Bill Aitken. The fact remains that a reliable source published information stating that Bill Aitken is a expert on comparative religion [4]. Therefore, it can be referenced as such. SSS108 talk- email 18:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Unlike your site, my site has never been threatened with legal action for defamatory content. SSS108 talk- email 18:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I restored the statement by user:ProEdits that user:SSS108 inappropriately removed under the pretext of removing a personal attack against him hereunder. Andries
You have had every opportunity to keep the discussion on course and you have instead chose the path of personal attacks. You have no one else to blame but yourself. SSS108 talk- email 19:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Moreno began his defamations and attacks on me long before I even responded to him, which I then did over 2 years later with a single paragraph. He continues his defamation here, with the link which he had to remove from my Robert Priddy Wiki page (see his slander-related link at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Robert_Priddy&oldid=58646403). where he also began his defamation specifically on Wikipedia against me many months ago. He avoids the issue, that he has NO PROOF that the Kreydick material is in the independent public domain. Therefore I shall continue to remove this material in accordance with Wiki policy on sources. -- ProEdits 19:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Bill Aitken's status is not that of an 'expert on comparative religion' - there is absolutely no proof. Moreno has no answer to this fact, so it has been removed again, and will continue to be removed until any reasonable proof may be forthcoming.-- 84.208.99.96 19:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Moreno persists in posting unverified materials about the Kreydick deposition. He thereby demonstrates his complete inability to prove that this deposition was obtained by him from Orange County Court and is available as an independent public documentation. Depositions are not handed out by the Clerk of Court or other Court officials for free, they have to be paid for, and a signed receipt alone can prove this occurred. Otherwise the only conclusion is that the materials wer supplied to Moreno by persons belonging to or acting on behalf of the Sathya Sai Society.
Therefore continued removal of this material.--
ProEdits
20:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This appears to me to be an attempt to remove information on a technicality, a technicality which actually warrants the inculsion of this material. It appears to have been cited by a secondary source. Anything not verified to the above mentioned sources should be pruned mercilessly, but attempts to remove the cited material are little more than vandalism. savidan (talk) (e@) 20:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that Priddy and Andries are "demanding" documentation concerning the court case (which has been provided and according to the Calumny article verified by Robert Baskin, a licensed attorney) when we have been asking them to provide documentation concerning the alleged affidavits they've been claiming to have and chiming about for years but can never come up with! Talk about duplicitous and hypocritical. Let's see you guys walk your talk for once instead of trying to have it all your way and playing your continuous mind games with regard to the rules. Freelanceresearch 02:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
More red herrings from Moreno: I have never tried to substitute anything for the removed subjective materials of Kreydick. I am not presenting any 'original research' on the article, where I have only inserted about 4 words in all!--
ProEdits
14:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not a journalist - though I do write for newspapers and journals and am on the board of a quarterly cultural magazine distributed nationally in Norway - but I am a professional academic researcher since decades. I do not need to prove that the view expressed in the source 'This Week' is other than a self-made claim by Bill Aitken himself about being "an expert in comparative religion" Go to the source article and you will notice that it is part of his article, hence attributed to him, not to the editors or to anyone else. Besides this source is merely an on-line journal and as such should be eliminated according to the arbitration recently received. It has to go.-- ProEdits 13:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I am also going to be contacting the court myself on Tuesday. Monday is a holiday here in the USA. I also want to point out how Andries has no problem when ProEdits (Robert Priddy) removes referenced material but raises a huge fuss when others do it with his sources. SSS108 talk- email 04:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Weren't you just arguing that you wanted to include an article about Sai Baba even though no one could verify its existence in online documents, Andries? Now you are arguing that you want to remove data because you cannot find the documents online? You continually want it both ways as long as it benefits you. I looked at the Superior Court page on Alaya Rahm's case and it CLEARLY shows that Alaya asked for a dismissal of his case. Now are you going to argue that? The court disclaimer says that some documents may be missing.
" Information Disclaimer The information provided on and obtained from this site does not constitute the official record of Orange County Superior Court. This information is provided as a service to the general public. Any user of this information is hereby advised that it is being provided "as is". The information provided may be subject to errors or omissions. Visitors to this site agree that the Court is not liable for errors or omissions or any of the information provided. Visitors further consent to access the record only as instructed by the Court and consent to the Court's monitoring of access to the records. Copyright and other proprietary rights may apply to information in a case file absent an express grant of additional rights by the holder of the copyright or other proprietary right. Use of such information is permissible only to the extent permitted by law or court order, and any use inconsistent with proprietary rights is prohibited."
Please let us know when you decide to be consistent with the rules Andries. Freelanceresearch 06:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As the above 'Information Disclaimer' points out "Visitors further consent to access the record only as instructed by the Court and consent to the Court's monitoring of access to the records." Where, therefore, has the Court instructed and given consent on the monitoring of access to the Kreydick deposition record? I am acting within the guidelines of Wikipedia in removing reference to this and will continue to do so until independent and controllable proof is provided that the Clerk of Court can provide such documents, in which unlikely case I shall require that exact information on how such documents were provided, so that I can also obtain them. I am interested in the result of Moreno's contacts with the Clerk of Court and expect him in the interests of truth to provide documentation of the response he gets, whether pro or contra his case.
The fact STILL remains, there is no independently sourced information about the Lewis Kreydick deposition.
Andries is evidently acting consistently with the rules now, whatever he may have argued in the past. SSS108 (Gerald 'Joe' Moreno) is an extremely active pro-Sai activist with four pro-Sai websites containing altogether many hundreds of pages pushing his POV wholly one-sidedly (as witnessed here on Wikipedia) as he also does on several blogs and numerous bulletin boards, most especially and in sexually-explicit language on Yahoo Groups sathyasaibaba2. He writes all those pages and entries himself, whereas Andries has written less than 5% of the materials on ExBaba.com. Apropos, for the record, ExBaba.com was indeed threatened with legal action by someone who was unable to proceed because the entire threat was an empty bluff. This speaks rather in favour of the website's integrity. --
ProEdits
07:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh give us a break Priddy. Are you going to nit-pick us to death with your avoidance tactics now? Since WHEN were most of your sleazy accusations EVER independently sourced, much less corroborated? All public records can be posted for public viewing. If you don't believe me go to the smokingun website and look at all the court documents and public records they have there. What's wrong, are you afraid people might find out you guys are all bluff and no buster? Better be careful, people are getting awfully tired of your "any sleaze goes" attitude and like David Icke, someday you may have to pay the piper. Freelanceresearch 10:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It is not our business - a SSS108 [Gerald Moreno] sophistically claims - to provide any attested statements from anyone from the court stating the documents do not exist. We do not deny their existence, but we assert they have not been released as public information BY THE COURT, hence as independent sources (i.e. not as Sai Baba propaganda on Sai-devoted web pages). Even so, the deposition of Kreydick is not even central to the case. and played no part whatever in the decision to drop the litigation - the fact is that it was discontinued voluntarily due to what can be termed legal technicalities. The real 'smoking gun' in the Alaya Rahm lawsuit is found at
http://www.saiguru.net/english/news/060730_Alaya_Rahm_lawsuit.htm where the real reasons for the self-dismissal are stated. So far I am still unconvinced due to lack of reliable evidence that the depositions made by the Sathya Sai Society are independently available as public documents. THAT is the entire issue... it is quite simple to understand if one is not blinded by bias and wilful obstructionism. IF they have been released by consent of the judge as is required according to the Court website, then they are public documents. They are NOT available on the Internet according to the statement "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application." [see
https://ocapps.occourts.org/CivilPub/DisplayCaseInformation.do?caseNbr=05CC01931&personNbr=21629&src=case_src_dt] A representative of the exposé visited the Court and obtained on payment of a fee what he understood was ALL the documents concerning Alaya Rahm available there (as already stated above). We are not the ones who need to be careful - empty threats are not the stock in trade of Sai critics - as we do not break the laws on slander as Freelanceresearch has done on Yahoo groups sathyasaibaba2 endlessly(as conscientiousobjector2000)... As usual, she makes big claims without anything that can be called supporting evidence - circumstantial or otherwise, as is seen above. I am stating fact, not slander without using derogatory terms like 'sleazy'. My web pages shows masses of independent sources - see
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/index.htm --
ProEdits
12:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I wish to correct my former statement that Lisa de Witt was banned from Wikipedia. I find I was misinformed by someone who commented thus, but - having checked thoroughly - I find no evidence of it. I am removing my unfortunate mistake. Interesting that Lisa de Witt admits that she and Moreno are co-responsible for the mean-spirited atmosphere here - this was also obvious long, long before I entered this page with some fairly restrained comments about them. However, Moreno was banned, n'est ce pas? Now Moreno and de Witt can rail on here and on Yahoo groups about how Priddy actually made a mistake and admitted it!-- 84.208.99.96 14:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I have NEVER been banned from using wikipedia! See what I mean Piacobe (or however your name is spelled). Joe and I are not the ones responsible for the mean-spirited atmosphere here. Wherever the anti-Sais travel their toxic behavior and agenda of hate and lies goes with them. When is wikipedia going to stop these hatemongers from trying to use wikipedia for their own personal soapbox?
Freelanceresearch
23:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Block Log For Freelanceresearch. Freelanceresearch has never been "banned from Wikipedia". Another shameless lie from ProEdits (Robert Priddy).
SSS108
talk-
email
03:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I gave a link to a Court web page, but never suggested that it contained the text of the court records – I gave the link PRECISELY to show that those records are NOT available on that website! See this once again: "At this time documents imaged or electronically filed are not available via this application.”
Why Moreno also repeats his argument about the existence of the Kreydick deposition is beyond me – I have to my knowledge never denied its existence. The question is whether it is available to the public as a document from the independent County Court. Let us see whether this – despite all our efforts to obtain it – nevertheless can be proved. Moreno has not – as requested – proved that he obtained the deposition from the County Court, such as in the form of a signed receipt for payment… rather than from the defendants or their representatives. This is a crucial fact as to sourcing this material. Who told him of the existence of this case and the materials so quickly – when only the lawyers, the judge and the plaintiffs and defendants knew about it? Nothing was printed about it or found with any obvious search terms using Google. Was he not informed of it and how to come by the court documents by the Sathya Sai Society or their proxies? It is fair to comment here too, that – as the Sathya Sai Society is well aware - Moreno has from the start gone to great lengths to attack and undermine Alaya Rahm’s allegations of being sexually abused by Sai Baba, also defending Dr. Goldstein and the Society. Yet Alaya Rahm’s allegations stand as ever, and the BBC has promulgated them worldwide without Sai Baba’s supporters being able to raise a case against them, though they tried legal threats to broadcasters in the US and Canada.
I am a member of the International JuST Group, and was not acting “under the guise of JuST” – there was a JuST working committee of 9 persons, conferring with the Rahm family and their lawyer, Brelsford. The date of the court case given was not provided by me. I can’t be bothered to check it even as it is of so little significance, except to Moreno and Co., of course. Moreno is trying to minimise the major import of the statement which shows that the Kreydick evidence was totally irrelevant in the decision to dismiss the case. Moreno and the Sai authorities are trying to make out that this was so – it is a clever ploy, no doubt. But is not truthful and certainly not proper material for an encyclopedia, in my view. What does jossi say to that? As to the exact date of the first approach by our team to the County Court, it was about two months ago, despite Moreno’s false conclusion from the fact it was not mentioned here earlier. This is no big deal. -- ProEdits 11:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
...Is way off:
If you are unable to abide by these policies, you would be better off not participating. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I basically agree with jossi’s comment here. However, since I have been attacked so heavily here and on other Wiki talk pages, [including the Robert Priddy Wiki page] - with repeated links to utterly slanderous pages made against me by Gerald ‘Joe’ Moreno (SSS108)- and since Wikipedia is so far chronically unable to remove such texts or block these attacks once and for all, I feel I do at least have a moral right to refute arguments directed against me, and not least also in defense of one who have suffered terribly at the hands of Sai Baba (Alaya Rahm) and will be further injured by a subjective account by a Sai follower, if it is not truly an independent public document. Is it not fair - under these circumstances - to point this out? --
ProEdits
11:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Yet again, despite jossi’s comments – Moreno goes on the rampage with more slander against me and Alaya Rahm.
I have already posted a withdrawal of my erroneous statement that de Witt had been banned, but he still maintains I was lying, when an e-mail sent me mixed up de Witt and Moreno (the latter having been banned). This shows his entire approach towards me and also towards any criticism of Sai Baba. Moreno calls every clerical error or minor mistake - and also almost any statement he does not like - a lie. ‘Blatant lie’ is a term he and de Witt favour a lot too in their baseless and/or trivial allegations. Nowhere have I called Moreno a follower of Sai Baba (though I originally thought he was two years back), but he is most obviously and blatantly a defender of Sai Baba and his Organisation – going to enormous lengths to blacken every ex-follower who criticises Sai Baba - calling out of hand all the brave young men who stood forth liars, stalking them and posting dirt about them. He also adds every adulatory source - invariably biased pro-Sai sources - that he can find to the SSB article. He has also praised Sai baba on his website for giving him 'wonderful experiences', including his account on his website of having his pants taken down and being oiled by Sai baba on his the 'lower stomach' during his private interview. What does all that make him, I wonder? Is it not just a question of definition!
Please take note carefully again that the above is entirely facts not slander, nor lies. He also distorts other facts. The Kreydick testimony in no way affects the truthfulness of Alaya Rahm’s claims of sexual abuse by Sai Baba, considering Alaya could not even tell his own parents for ages, so why would he tell a self-appointed ‘advisor’ when even Sai Baba had warned the family not to associate with him! Alaya was in a tremendous dilemma and suffered greatly, which he had to hide for the thousands of sycophants surrounding him, which he has explained adequately on the BBC film ‘The Secret Swami’.
As an excuse for his constant attacks on my person, note that Moreno again claims I have slandered Sai Baba! What kind of defence is that! I maintain I have not slandered Sai Baba, of course, because in every case I am most careful on my web pages to weight every statement with exactness, and I invariably have sound backing – either documentary, testimony or from personal observation or overwhelming circumstantial evidence. I am willing to stand for my writings in any court of law – where dozens of allegedly sexually abuse victims, including genuine Indian ex-students who have contacted me with their experiences - would be put forward under court. In view of realising this, no official in the Sai Organisation or any Sai Baba related institutions has ever accused me of slander against anyone. Another sound reason for their reticence in not making any kind of formal complaint against my writings, is that they can’t stand the revealing publicity that would ensue, such as world media attention (especially in the UK due to the apparent royal connections) and a close follow-up BBC World documentary!--
ProEdits
14:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I do hope that one or two searchers for truth will penetrate deep into this arcane repository of "knowledge" to read this exchange of paragraphs (and the whole entry on Sathya Sai Baba) to see the weaknesses in the Wiki system and its vulnerability. Ombudswiki, 24 September 2006.
This case is now closed and the result has been published at the link above.
For the Arbitration Committee. 03:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there anybody, who is just a Wikipedia editor, watching this page and interested in turning this article in an encyclopedic article, like something that a real encyclopedia would write? Then I would ask all apologetics and apostats to step aside and perform major surgery. But I'm not masochistic enough to proceed alone. -- Pjacobi 07:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand why you would not like to be in the firing line for the kind of slander I am subjected to, but rest assured you would receive no personal attacks from me if you were to try. But correction of provably wrong facts, yes. However, the question is how anyone can write an objective article on Sathya Sai Baba who has not studied his words fully and deeply, or had direct experience of his life and activities, which are a subject of the greatest controversy? My view is that the article is not too bad considering the situation (if it does not include the highly subjective and speculative Kreydick deposition materials) ... both sides of the controversy are represented and at least one is not fed a seemingly 'neutral' package of what would surely be largely superficial materials. --
ProEdits
11:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipiedia is not a place for advocating either pro or con viewpoints, to convert neophytes, to discourage followers, or to "alert the public". For that you have the pro sites and anti websites. To describe your "direct experience", publish a blog or a website. Wikipedia is not a place for
original research. Involved editors, unless they come to terms with this reality, will continue to suffer aggravation and stress that leads to poisoning of these discussions and to unavoidable personal attacks. The next steps should be to cleanup the article by applying the resolution of the arbitration committee as described above, and applying our content policies.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
14:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Pjacobi, thank you for your comments and clarifications. I find them honest and forthcoming. As I said before, I will step aside if experienced editors want to take over.
Nevertheless, I am deeply concerned about Andries selective reinterpretation of Wikipedia policy, saying that sources must be referenced by reliable secondary sources, yet he sees no problem with citing primary sources (as in the case of Kevin Shephard's reference to Robert Priddy). Until Andries steps aside, neither will I. SSS108 talk- email 19:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Robert Priddy is NOT a reliable source Andries. Very little of his information can be verified because it is SECOND-HAND (otherwise known as gossip). Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand the difference between gossip and a credible source whose statements can be verified. just because someone claims something doesn't mean they are telling the truth. Freelanceresearch 23:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Unlike Lisa de Witt (alias: Freelanceresearch), I have been a lifelong academic researcher and I understand a great deal about source materials (ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Priddy). There is a little secondhand information in my hundreds of web pages, but it is always presented exactly for what it is, if so, also often with by accompanying links or references. The vast majority of my writings are either sourced to other documents (not least in my critiques of Sathya Sai Baba's own discourses, which are referenced thoroughly)or my direct first-hand experiences through two decades when I was mostly the national leader of the Sai Organisation in Norway and was also frequent visitor to the ashrams, where I had numerous personal meetings with Sai Baba and some of his closest confidantes. So much for de Witt's with all her endless unsourced, third-hand gossip and totally unrestrained slander, sexual language and name calling! (on
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sathyasaibaba2/messages2 as conscientiousobjector2000.--
ProEdits
12:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
SSS108, can you not yourself "please stop whining and babbling on this Talk Page. Before you came along, the discussions were relatively on-topic." You have long been engaging in personal attacks all over the place, including on Wikipedia, and you continue in the above! I am not pushing my agenda here like your pusing of your pro-Sai agenda. You talk about fairness - that is a travesty of anything remotely like your attitude! The Aitken material is merely an on-line webpage - which is not a primary source- and the contents are subjective judgements made by Aitken about critics and many other matters - not encyclopaedic material by any count. Hence removal was entirely justified. It should be removed, and I ask jossi to state a sensible opinion on this - though I can see he is clearly biased towards you (viz. his absurd doubting of The Times as a reliable source!) and also Pjacobi and GRBerry, if you please.--
ProEdits
16:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Hard to believe that you are actually in your seventies and still act like this, Priddy. Why do you always play the victim when you are the bully who starts the mudslinging to begin with? For all the supposed experience you claim to have in doing research you have very little to show for it as well as your ethics. Maybe you should try researching just why you are so angry and feel you have to take it out on Sai Baba or anybody who disagrees with you and confronts you with your sloppy research and bullying attitude. Freelanceresearch 10:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Who requested the RFC? Where is it at? When was it made? And where on this talk page was the RFC made known? Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 21:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
ArbCom ruled:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba Therefore, all critical external links must be removed from "in the article" in accordance with this ruling. All these links contain original research and personal accounts. SSS108 talk- email 01:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Jossie, I informed FloNight about it. Hopefully, she can give a clarification. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 15:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The point is that Wikipedia is NOT to be used as a tabloid soapbox for personal opinions. Sai Baba has NEVER been PROVEN in a court of law to be a fraud OR a child molestor. Accusations and opinions are NOT proof of criminal behavior. Thank you Arbitration Committee for resolving what should have been a common sense issue to begin with. Freelanceresearch 20:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no problem sourcing that SSB is widely regarded as a fraud and a charlatan, it's just not entering the domain of crime and court decisions. -- Pjacobi 19:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Baloney Andries, rationalists aka athiests have a conflict of interest and are NOT "reliable" sources when they don't even believe in God to begin with! And then there are the evangelical Christians who perceive Baba as the anti-Christ. Get real Andries, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Please read your wikipedia rules for questionable sources (with conflict of interest) Andries. Of course, you should know this by now but you are more interested in pushing your agenda. There is VOLUMUS documentation both medically and by governmment officials in India regarding Baba's miracles and anyone who says this isn't so is a blatant liar. And for the record pjacobe, I am not against well-documented sources but the anti-Sais continually try to use questionable and unreliable sources like Robert Priddy who blatantly lie as you have seen on this board. Very little of their claims can be reliably documented. In other words they are accusations based on emotionalism and it's getting VERY old. Freelanceresearch 20:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
NO, I will NOT step aside. I have made it VERY clear I am here to make sure Andries follows Wikipedia guidelines and will not touch the article until I know he is contained and made to quit propagandizing and bullying me and others like you just attempted to do. Andries did this when I first came here and it didn't work. People can look at the record and see very clearly that Andries attempts to bully others into submission and monopolize the article by playing mind games with the rules. Andries of all people should know and be able to follow the rules by now but continues to willingly violate them in favor of your POV. Trust me piacobe , you won't win this one. I am not vandalizing the article and when I do edit I follow Wikipedia guidelines.
Freelanceresearch
22:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries once again re-inserted a link to his Anti-Sai Website before getting an answer or obtaining a consensus from FloNight. See Thread. Andries also attempted to justify his re-insertion of links to his Anti-Sai Website by citing the proposed decisions: Reference. For Andries information, that link is not ArbCom's final ruling. Andries needs to substantiate his actions by referring to The Final Decisions and not the one's that were formerly proposed. SSS108 talk- email 17:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The footnotes section is running at 46K, and an article recommended overall size is 50Kb. Quoting long portions from a published work, can be construed as a copyright violation. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
<<<outdentYou are painting the issue as if it is an option between having a "convenience link" that is contrary to the ArbCom ruling and having a long quote that violates copyright. What Pjacobi and I are arguing that there is another, more viable option, and that is to summarize the reliable source's viewpoint and provide the source. That works remarkably well for WP so far. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Pjacobi, a discussion was already had about Andries translations to Dutch articles. His translations were found to be accurate, albeit selective and wholly one-sided. Regarding media articles, I will wait for Andries to respond before I do. Most of the major media articles are already linked to in the refs. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 15:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Pjacobi, can you tell me why you are keeping the "Other Websites"? Not sure why this is being kept if media articles are not. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 18:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Andries, I fear you are totally misreading WP:V and WP:CITE. A citation is giving the properly formatted source in the references section, with WP:CITE discussing three possible citation styles. We are using Wikipedia:Footnotes. What does the footnore contain?
See? Not a small or large quote from the publication. What you want to use from the cited source goes into the main article prose, usually in your own words, in some delicate cases as as short (!) verbatim quote. -- Pjacobi 19:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Cum grano salis I've now removed all cites from the references and split all footnotes holding multiple references. I've begin collapsing multiple references to the same article using the name="xyz" method. There will arise a problem: I'd would be very happy to collapsing all references to Erlendurs book into one, but that would lose the page number information. Are there workarounds known for this situation. -- Pjacobi 18:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)