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"Santeria" is also the name used by Puerto Ricans for their religion. I have no reason to believe that they learned santeria from Cubans. E A ( talk) 12:42, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
To be more precise, "santería" is a general term. It is also used in the Colombia/Venezuela region. However, in addition to this it also can be applied specifically to regla de Ocha/Lucumí. Thus, there is ambiguity. Cruxador ( talk) 21:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Karaeng Matoaya ( talk · contribs) 10:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
This is a truly impressive piece of writing on a fascinating topic, so first of all I'd like to thank you for the surpassing work that has clearly gone into the article. I will be reviewing the article for the next few hours.-- Karaeng Matoaya ( talk) 10:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
An initiatory tradition, Santería's members usually meet in the homes of santeros or santeras to venerate specific oricha at altars set up for that purpose.This sentence is a little unclear. What is the initiatory tradition being mentioned here?
Santería uses the Lucumí language, which is derived from Yoruba, for ritual purposes.I think this sentence could work better at the end of the second paragraph, because it intervenes between two sentences that both explicitly discuss the oricha and which might flow better if directly connected. Alternately, the transition between the previous sentence and this one could be improved by e.g. "The Lucumi language, which is derived from Yoruba, is used in these communications and other ritual purposes."
After the Cuban War of Independence resulted in a newly independent Cuban state, the constitution enshrined freedom of religion.This would be better contextualized if the fact that the Spaniards enforced a state religion was mentioned explicitly in the preceding sentence.
Santería has drawn elements from Spiritism since the late nineteenth century;[20] the tradition is flexible and eclectic,[21] and lacks any strict orthodoxy.What's the purpose of the semicolon here and not a period? In fact, I'd personally prefer combining the first part of this sentence with the preceding one: "or practising the religion alongside Hinduism,[18] or Spiritism, which Santería has drawn elements from since the late nineteenth century."
An alternative term for an initiate is a babalocha or babaloricha if male and an iyalocha or iyaloricha if femaleAre the meanings of these terms known?
Santería is an Afro-Cuban religionand the one beginning
Although Santería is the best known of the Afro-Cuban religionswere directly connected. As it stands, my impression is that
A flexible and eclectic tradition,[17] Santería lacks any strict orthodoxy.[18] Many of its practitioners also consider themselves to be Roman Catholics,[19] and some adherents have practiced it alongside Hinduism,[20] Spiritism,[21] or have characterised themselves as Jewish.[22]is a bit intrusive to the flow of the text. As its flexibility is something quite important to the nature of Santeria, I'd like the passage to be either further up (as the second paragraph) or further down (at the end), to better highlight it in the section.
Oricha are identified as each having their own caminos ("roads"),[59] a concept that several scholars of religion have equated with that of the Hindu concept of avatars.I'm still not completely sure what a camino is—this should probably be defined directly in the article.
Some of the oricha are regarded as being antagonistic to one another; Chango and Ogun are for instance described as being enemiesVery interesting that iron and fire are enemies, but also makes quite a lot of sense. Not related to the GA review, just something I found interesting.
the Holy Infant of Atocha, who is viewed as Christ as a childIsn't the Holy Infant a literal Catholic depiction of the child Jesus? In that case "which depicts" may be preferable to "who is viewed as".
Practitioners refer to this oricha as being that which "rules the head" of an individualWhy not "something that" instead of "being that which"?
Especially propitiated are those members of the dead who are deemed to be ancestors;[49] these ancestors are consulted at all ceremonies.[107] Practitioners believe that when a creyente dies, they too become an ancestor.Is the definition of an ancestor in Santeria a genealogical ancestor, or a deceased creyente, or both? For example, could a creyente have a non-Cuban, non-santeros grandparent as an ancestor?
carved, figurative cane"Figurative" in what sense?
Santería teaches that through offerings and prayers, individuals can help some of their unevolved spirits to become evolved.Again very interesting.
Many roles were traditionally considered off-limits to homosexual males,[129] however there are many gay men operating as priests in the religion,[130] as well as some lesbian priestesses.This sentence is a run-on.
There is a stereotype among Cubans and Cuban Americans that all Santería priests are gay men, although this is not true.If there are traditionally many limits to homosexual men in Santeria, how did this stereotype develop in the first place?
For ritual purposes, the Lucumi language, which derives from the Yoruba language, is often used in Santería.and perhaps also in the lead.-- Karaeng Matoaya ( talk) 12:59, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
at this point, they may still be referred to as an aleyo ("stranger")When do they stop being called aleyo? Is this after the iyaworaje?
in omiero, a type of sacred water that has been infused with various herbs.Per the above section ("When a sacrifice is made, some of the blood may be mixed with herbs and added to that from previous years. This liquid is called omiero, and is regarded as the most powerful liquid in Santería"), I was under the impression that omiero was mostly blood?
Initiates often receive the necklaces of the five most powerful and popular oricha.Which oricha are these?
As a santero gains further initiations within the Santería systemShouldn't this be "As a santero undergoes more initiation ceremonies"? I'm not sure if initiations are something you gain.
objects from their padrino that represents the warriors: iron tools to represent Ogún; an iron bow and arrow to represent Ochosi; and an iron or silver chalice surmounted by a rooster to represent OsúnWhat about Elegua?
The term toque refers to both the verb tocar ("to play") as well as the noun toque ("rhythm").Could there be a clearer expression than "refer to" here? Perhaps "invokes" or "is linked to"?
For ceremonial purposes, these drums must be made from wood, with no metal structural elements; adding metal elements could offend Chango, who is associated with wooden artefacts, because of their association with his enemy, Ogun.Is Ogun not offended by the wood?
Aside from the use of herbs and divination, Santería traditional healing rituals include animal sacrifice, offerings, altar building, music, dance, and possession trance.Was divination in the context of healing mentioned earlier?
Aside from the use of herbs and divinationsuggests to the reader that divination in healing rituals was also mentioned earlier, which could be a bit confusing as the reader thinks that they've missed something in the text.
The final decades of the 19th century had also seen growing interest in Spiritism, a religion based on the ideas of French writer Allan Kardec, which in Cuba proved particularly popular among the white peasantry, the Creole class, and the small urban middle-class.The impact of Spiritism on Santeria should be explicitly mentioned here.
Mexican practitioners tried to keep in contact with their Cuban co-religionists via mail and phoneWhy the past tense here?
So once my concerns above are addressed, this should be an easy pass.-- Karaeng Matoaya ( talk) 14:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I believe that I've dealt with every point you made Karaeng Matoaya, but let me know if anything else comes to mind. Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on this article; I hope that you felt that it was worthwhile! Midnightblueowl ( talk) 12:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The article seems ridden with spelling errors, starting by the shocking "oricha" instead of "Orisha" (which is the title of the article on the subject in Wikipedia), continuing with "Chango" instead of "Changó", "Yemaja" instead of "Yemayá", "Lucumi" instead of "Lucumí" (which is a very common last name where I live) and "Ochun" instead of "Ochún" or "Oxum".
All those names are stressed in the last syllable, the digrams "sh" and "ch" have a very different pronunciation in Spanish with "ch" being noticeably harder, and, to add insult to injury, the letter "j" in "Yemaja" is pronounced like Spanish "y" but only in English because in Spanish those are two very different sounds.
Sometimes it says "Santería" and in other occasions it says "Santeria".
It hurts my Spanish eyes and it goes against the pronunciation in Spanish and the lore around the subject which includes a myriad of salsa songs I am used to sing since I was a kid.
A native speaker could correct this but it requires copy/paste through a word processor to correct the many errors ("guerror" instead of "guerrero" in this talk being egregious). Ciroa ( talk) 02:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
There are a couple of citation errors:
203. Bascom 1950, p. 65; Mason 2002, p. 71; Wedel 2007b, p. 114. Harv error: link from CITEREFWedel2007b doesn't point to any citation.
416.Brandon 1992, pp. 76, 77-78; Fernández Olmos & Paravisini-Gebert 2011, p. 42. Harv error: link from CITEREFBrandon1992 doesn't point to any citation.
-- Graham Beards ( talk) 10:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I am familiar with Santería in Cali, where I live and in Sao Paulo, which I have visited.
The spelling "oricha" is original, I have never seen it, it should be orishá or at least orichá, being way, way, way more common the first one, except in articles written by non-native speakers of Spanish.
The Wikipedia article says Orisha.
I started to correct spelling but was unable when I realized that the word "oricha" is spelled like that 116 times, my gosh.
The same goes for "babaloricha" which I have seen spelled as "babalorisha".
I highly doubt the person writing the article has ever heard the salsa songs devoted to santería where the letters "sh" are invariably used instead of the much more strong pronunciation "ch" which I have never heard used in santería rites as both letters or digrams "sh" and "ch" have a very different pronunciation in Spanish.
Also Yemaja seems an English translation and a poor one or at least very original of Yemayá.
Ogun is spelt Ogún and Chango is Changó, Babalu is Babalú, is not Lucumi but Lucumí, which is a very common last name in Cali.
Most names in Santería are stressed in the last syllable and that is what the accent means.
There is mention of "guerror" in this Talk while one imagines it means to say "guerrero".
The word "Santeria" is used sometimes while most of the time says "Santería", which is the correct spelling. Ciroa ( talk) 02:09, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me that the great degree to which most details can vary by Ilé (which this article translates as "casa") would not be obvious to a reader who isn't already familiar with this matter. This is true in little details, for two examples: the article says their are 16 main orisha, according to me if I picked a number it would be 15 and I have two different guesses who the 16th might be. This is something that can vary and it's normal for it to do so because the line between major and minor orisha is very vague. There is also the issue of gender. It is said that the orishas can be male or female, but there are also those which are genderless (Olokún is not, in my experience, normally depicted as humanoid and can be said to be without path/camino) or dual gender (Obatalá is said to have an equal number of male and female paths, and is entirely male as well as entirely female, containing the full wisdom of both genders) or otherwise not binary. It also applies to practitioners currently, the article states as though it were objective truth that women are equally important or more important in Santería, and specifically can hold the highest positions. Although this is true of Regla de Ocha, it doesn't account for the fact that in many Ilé, Ocha is very integrated with Ifá, and therefore a babalawo (a role only for males) can be considered more important. In addition, all specific references to practices could vary, although I didn't notice anything to which I'm aware of an obvious exception. Finally, even the big things can change. For example, the relative emphasis on the orishas compared to the ancestors can be very different. Cruxador ( talk) 21:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm a Nigerian born and bred in Nigeria. I have always been attracted to non European identity and I have embraced Santeria. I have been mentally unstable before I sincerely adopted Santeria. As a Nigerian in Nigeria, I'm a sort of authority on Santeria and so I am sure that starting from 2023, Santafest (first December to fourth January every year) is a Santeria holiday season during when there will be a lot icing Santa (saint) associated with Elegua or Esu who will bring gifts for children. This is not the Christian Christmas. Santa is a key element in Santeria ✅ ( Santa Remi ( talk) 11:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC))
![]() | Santería is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 25, 2021. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Archives: 1 |
"Santeria" is also the name used by Puerto Ricans for their religion. I have no reason to believe that they learned santeria from Cubans. E A ( talk) 12:42, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
To be more precise, "santería" is a general term. It is also used in the Colombia/Venezuela region. However, in addition to this it also can be applied specifically to regla de Ocha/Lucumí. Thus, there is ambiguity. Cruxador ( talk) 21:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Karaeng Matoaya ( talk · contribs) 10:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
This is a truly impressive piece of writing on a fascinating topic, so first of all I'd like to thank you for the surpassing work that has clearly gone into the article. I will be reviewing the article for the next few hours.-- Karaeng Matoaya ( talk) 10:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
An initiatory tradition, Santería's members usually meet in the homes of santeros or santeras to venerate specific oricha at altars set up for that purpose.This sentence is a little unclear. What is the initiatory tradition being mentioned here?
Santería uses the Lucumí language, which is derived from Yoruba, for ritual purposes.I think this sentence could work better at the end of the second paragraph, because it intervenes between two sentences that both explicitly discuss the oricha and which might flow better if directly connected. Alternately, the transition between the previous sentence and this one could be improved by e.g. "The Lucumi language, which is derived from Yoruba, is used in these communications and other ritual purposes."
After the Cuban War of Independence resulted in a newly independent Cuban state, the constitution enshrined freedom of religion.This would be better contextualized if the fact that the Spaniards enforced a state religion was mentioned explicitly in the preceding sentence.
Santería has drawn elements from Spiritism since the late nineteenth century;[20] the tradition is flexible and eclectic,[21] and lacks any strict orthodoxy.What's the purpose of the semicolon here and not a period? In fact, I'd personally prefer combining the first part of this sentence with the preceding one: "or practising the religion alongside Hinduism,[18] or Spiritism, which Santería has drawn elements from since the late nineteenth century."
An alternative term for an initiate is a babalocha or babaloricha if male and an iyalocha or iyaloricha if femaleAre the meanings of these terms known?
Santería is an Afro-Cuban religionand the one beginning
Although Santería is the best known of the Afro-Cuban religionswere directly connected. As it stands, my impression is that
A flexible and eclectic tradition,[17] Santería lacks any strict orthodoxy.[18] Many of its practitioners also consider themselves to be Roman Catholics,[19] and some adherents have practiced it alongside Hinduism,[20] Spiritism,[21] or have characterised themselves as Jewish.[22]is a bit intrusive to the flow of the text. As its flexibility is something quite important to the nature of Santeria, I'd like the passage to be either further up (as the second paragraph) or further down (at the end), to better highlight it in the section.
Oricha are identified as each having their own caminos ("roads"),[59] a concept that several scholars of religion have equated with that of the Hindu concept of avatars.I'm still not completely sure what a camino is—this should probably be defined directly in the article.
Some of the oricha are regarded as being antagonistic to one another; Chango and Ogun are for instance described as being enemiesVery interesting that iron and fire are enemies, but also makes quite a lot of sense. Not related to the GA review, just something I found interesting.
the Holy Infant of Atocha, who is viewed as Christ as a childIsn't the Holy Infant a literal Catholic depiction of the child Jesus? In that case "which depicts" may be preferable to "who is viewed as".
Practitioners refer to this oricha as being that which "rules the head" of an individualWhy not "something that" instead of "being that which"?
Especially propitiated are those members of the dead who are deemed to be ancestors;[49] these ancestors are consulted at all ceremonies.[107] Practitioners believe that when a creyente dies, they too become an ancestor.Is the definition of an ancestor in Santeria a genealogical ancestor, or a deceased creyente, or both? For example, could a creyente have a non-Cuban, non-santeros grandparent as an ancestor?
carved, figurative cane"Figurative" in what sense?
Santería teaches that through offerings and prayers, individuals can help some of their unevolved spirits to become evolved.Again very interesting.
Many roles were traditionally considered off-limits to homosexual males,[129] however there are many gay men operating as priests in the religion,[130] as well as some lesbian priestesses.This sentence is a run-on.
There is a stereotype among Cubans and Cuban Americans that all Santería priests are gay men, although this is not true.If there are traditionally many limits to homosexual men in Santeria, how did this stereotype develop in the first place?
For ritual purposes, the Lucumi language, which derives from the Yoruba language, is often used in Santería.and perhaps also in the lead.-- Karaeng Matoaya ( talk) 12:59, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
at this point, they may still be referred to as an aleyo ("stranger")When do they stop being called aleyo? Is this after the iyaworaje?
in omiero, a type of sacred water that has been infused with various herbs.Per the above section ("When a sacrifice is made, some of the blood may be mixed with herbs and added to that from previous years. This liquid is called omiero, and is regarded as the most powerful liquid in Santería"), I was under the impression that omiero was mostly blood?
Initiates often receive the necklaces of the five most powerful and popular oricha.Which oricha are these?
As a santero gains further initiations within the Santería systemShouldn't this be "As a santero undergoes more initiation ceremonies"? I'm not sure if initiations are something you gain.
objects from their padrino that represents the warriors: iron tools to represent Ogún; an iron bow and arrow to represent Ochosi; and an iron or silver chalice surmounted by a rooster to represent OsúnWhat about Elegua?
The term toque refers to both the verb tocar ("to play") as well as the noun toque ("rhythm").Could there be a clearer expression than "refer to" here? Perhaps "invokes" or "is linked to"?
For ceremonial purposes, these drums must be made from wood, with no metal structural elements; adding metal elements could offend Chango, who is associated with wooden artefacts, because of their association with his enemy, Ogun.Is Ogun not offended by the wood?
Aside from the use of herbs and divination, Santería traditional healing rituals include animal sacrifice, offerings, altar building, music, dance, and possession trance.Was divination in the context of healing mentioned earlier?
Aside from the use of herbs and divinationsuggests to the reader that divination in healing rituals was also mentioned earlier, which could be a bit confusing as the reader thinks that they've missed something in the text.
The final decades of the 19th century had also seen growing interest in Spiritism, a religion based on the ideas of French writer Allan Kardec, which in Cuba proved particularly popular among the white peasantry, the Creole class, and the small urban middle-class.The impact of Spiritism on Santeria should be explicitly mentioned here.
Mexican practitioners tried to keep in contact with their Cuban co-religionists via mail and phoneWhy the past tense here?
So once my concerns above are addressed, this should be an easy pass.-- Karaeng Matoaya ( talk) 14:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I believe that I've dealt with every point you made Karaeng Matoaya, but let me know if anything else comes to mind. Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on this article; I hope that you felt that it was worthwhile! Midnightblueowl ( talk) 12:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The article seems ridden with spelling errors, starting by the shocking "oricha" instead of "Orisha" (which is the title of the article on the subject in Wikipedia), continuing with "Chango" instead of "Changó", "Yemaja" instead of "Yemayá", "Lucumi" instead of "Lucumí" (which is a very common last name where I live) and "Ochun" instead of "Ochún" or "Oxum".
All those names are stressed in the last syllable, the digrams "sh" and "ch" have a very different pronunciation in Spanish with "ch" being noticeably harder, and, to add insult to injury, the letter "j" in "Yemaja" is pronounced like Spanish "y" but only in English because in Spanish those are two very different sounds.
Sometimes it says "Santería" and in other occasions it says "Santeria".
It hurts my Spanish eyes and it goes against the pronunciation in Spanish and the lore around the subject which includes a myriad of salsa songs I am used to sing since I was a kid.
A native speaker could correct this but it requires copy/paste through a word processor to correct the many errors ("guerror" instead of "guerrero" in this talk being egregious). Ciroa ( talk) 02:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
There are a couple of citation errors:
203. Bascom 1950, p. 65; Mason 2002, p. 71; Wedel 2007b, p. 114. Harv error: link from CITEREFWedel2007b doesn't point to any citation.
416.Brandon 1992, pp. 76, 77-78; Fernández Olmos & Paravisini-Gebert 2011, p. 42. Harv error: link from CITEREFBrandon1992 doesn't point to any citation.
-- Graham Beards ( talk) 10:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I am familiar with Santería in Cali, where I live and in Sao Paulo, which I have visited.
The spelling "oricha" is original, I have never seen it, it should be orishá or at least orichá, being way, way, way more common the first one, except in articles written by non-native speakers of Spanish.
The Wikipedia article says Orisha.
I started to correct spelling but was unable when I realized that the word "oricha" is spelled like that 116 times, my gosh.
The same goes for "babaloricha" which I have seen spelled as "babalorisha".
I highly doubt the person writing the article has ever heard the salsa songs devoted to santería where the letters "sh" are invariably used instead of the much more strong pronunciation "ch" which I have never heard used in santería rites as both letters or digrams "sh" and "ch" have a very different pronunciation in Spanish.
Also Yemaja seems an English translation and a poor one or at least very original of Yemayá.
Ogun is spelt Ogún and Chango is Changó, Babalu is Babalú, is not Lucumi but Lucumí, which is a very common last name in Cali.
Most names in Santería are stressed in the last syllable and that is what the accent means.
There is mention of "guerror" in this Talk while one imagines it means to say "guerrero".
The word "Santeria" is used sometimes while most of the time says "Santería", which is the correct spelling. Ciroa ( talk) 02:09, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me that the great degree to which most details can vary by Ilé (which this article translates as "casa") would not be obvious to a reader who isn't already familiar with this matter. This is true in little details, for two examples: the article says their are 16 main orisha, according to me if I picked a number it would be 15 and I have two different guesses who the 16th might be. This is something that can vary and it's normal for it to do so because the line between major and minor orisha is very vague. There is also the issue of gender. It is said that the orishas can be male or female, but there are also those which are genderless (Olokún is not, in my experience, normally depicted as humanoid and can be said to be without path/camino) or dual gender (Obatalá is said to have an equal number of male and female paths, and is entirely male as well as entirely female, containing the full wisdom of both genders) or otherwise not binary. It also applies to practitioners currently, the article states as though it were objective truth that women are equally important or more important in Santería, and specifically can hold the highest positions. Although this is true of Regla de Ocha, it doesn't account for the fact that in many Ilé, Ocha is very integrated with Ifá, and therefore a babalawo (a role only for males) can be considered more important. In addition, all specific references to practices could vary, although I didn't notice anything to which I'm aware of an obvious exception. Finally, even the big things can change. For example, the relative emphasis on the orishas compared to the ancestors can be very different. Cruxador ( talk) 21:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm a Nigerian born and bred in Nigeria. I have always been attracted to non European identity and I have embraced Santeria. I have been mentally unstable before I sincerely adopted Santeria. As a Nigerian in Nigeria, I'm a sort of authority on Santeria and so I am sure that starting from 2023, Santafest (first December to fourth January every year) is a Santeria holiday season during when there will be a lot icing Santa (saint) associated with Elegua or Esu who will bring gifts for children. This is not the Christian Christmas. Santa is a key element in Santeria ✅ ( Santa Remi ( talk) 11:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC))