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There are many musicals from the 1890s which are termed "operas" on their published music (some works by Gilbert & Sullivan had this appelation). Based on the audiences they were writing for, and other works they wrote, I think it's pretty easy to determine that most are what we today would call musicals, including Santa Maria. -- kosboot ( talk) 18:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Singingdaisies. The New York Times compares Hammerstein's work to that of Gilbert & Sullivan and Franz von Suppé, so Santa Maria should be described as an opera or an operetta. It most definitely does not fit the category of musical as we know them today. BTW, what difference does it make if Singingdaisies isn't a member of the Wiki Musical Theatre Project? Everyone can have an opinion. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 23:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
BTW, Singingdaisies, please do join WP:MUSICALS. It's not an active project at present, and no coordinated collaborations are ongoing there, however several editors have their own projects, and a number of editors monitor the project's talk page and do vandalism patrol, etc. I actually have created many of the musicals articles from the 1860s to 1920s, and I also focus on WP:G&S (and if you like G&S, please join the G&S project). Joining doesn't really mean anything except that it lets people know that you are interested in the subject area and would like, potentially, to collaborate on articles in the area. All the best, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 23:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The Brown book used as a reference calls Santa Maria a "comic opera". See A+History+of+the+New+York+Stage:+From+the+First+Performance+in+1732+to+1901'&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 00:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
To merge converstion from Oscar Hammerstein I's bio talk page: I quite agree that what is needed here is data rather than improvisation of a classification system. Comic operas and operettas certainly need to be distinguished from other operas, and any classification system that doesn't distinguish between them needs a second look. The score to Santa Maria is, of course, unavailable, but the hit song from the "opera" which had a "remarkable run" (in a Broadway theatre with a Broadway cast) can be viewed and downloaded from the Levy Sheet Music Collection at [1]. "Comic opera" it may be; fine art it ain't. - Nunh-huh 00:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that when user:Kosboot changed the article's name back to Santa Maria (musical) from Santa Maria (opera) he didn't actually move this article. What he did was a delete and copy paste. This action messed up the article's edit history so I have gone ahead and undone this edit. This is in no way meant to subvert the discussion above or assert that this should be the final name of the article. It was merely done to preserve the article's edit history. Singingdaisies ( talk) 07:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the change by the anonymous user, which seemed merely to delete referenced information. If you have a legitimate edit to make, please explain to us what you are trying to do. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday I spent considerable time researching and cleaning up this article. I don't understand why the original review from the New York Times keeps getting deleted. Removing valid information isn't improving the article at all. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 16:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
BTW, the change by 63.3.15.129 did not merely delete referenced information. It restored the better plot synopsis and the quote from the New York Times. Please compare versions before making inaccurate claims. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 16:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Why was Edna May Pettie mentioned in the first paragraph? Just because she's the only cast member than can be linked? She wasn't the star, and it's not like she was the equivalent of Beverly Sills or Leontyne Price and is worthy of mention in the very beginning of the article. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 16:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I listed my sources yesterday and they are still there. Unfortunately Singingdaisies made a mess of the article's history when she moved the article so you can't tell which additions were mine. The Times review wasn't "buried" - it was in the reception section I created, you just didnm't take the time to read the article. There isn't any reason to talk about the stage effects in the opening and again in a production section unless you're trying to make the article look longer than it really is. Editors do not have to use a screen name to have "more editing privileges", their work is just as valuable and sometimes better than people with screen names. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 18:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
J F Cone in New Grove Dictionary of Opera calls this an 'operetta'. As per Ssilvers, I think this belongs with the works of Victor Herbert, Rudolf Friml and Sigmund Romberg. (BTW Singingdaisies will not be writing here any longer: it was one of Nrswanson's many sockpuppets.) -- Klein zach 08:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I see you've moved the article, but you didn't update the links from the other articles that link to it. Were you planning to take care of that? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Never mind, there were just a few, and I fixed them. It's easy to find them: After you move an article, just click on "What links here" and then go to those articles to update the links. Best regards, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:53, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Welcome back. I hope you were having fun rather than working too hard. Happy editing! Oh! BTW, speaking of Nrswanson, s/he did a huge expansion of the Victor Herbert article some months ago, based on two books that s/he had. I finally got him/her to specify which book s/he sourced the information from in each paragraph, and s/he promised to supply the page numbers, but didn't get to it, and later s/he was blocked, I guess, and so there are numerous cites in the article that have no page references. Do you know anyone who could fill in the page numbers? It's a shame for all that great information to be incompletely referenced. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 23:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
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There are many musicals from the 1890s which are termed "operas" on their published music (some works by Gilbert & Sullivan had this appelation). Based on the audiences they were writing for, and other works they wrote, I think it's pretty easy to determine that most are what we today would call musicals, including Santa Maria. -- kosboot ( talk) 18:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Singingdaisies. The New York Times compares Hammerstein's work to that of Gilbert & Sullivan and Franz von Suppé, so Santa Maria should be described as an opera or an operetta. It most definitely does not fit the category of musical as we know them today. BTW, what difference does it make if Singingdaisies isn't a member of the Wiki Musical Theatre Project? Everyone can have an opinion. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 23:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
BTW, Singingdaisies, please do join WP:MUSICALS. It's not an active project at present, and no coordinated collaborations are ongoing there, however several editors have their own projects, and a number of editors monitor the project's talk page and do vandalism patrol, etc. I actually have created many of the musicals articles from the 1860s to 1920s, and I also focus on WP:G&S (and if you like G&S, please join the G&S project). Joining doesn't really mean anything except that it lets people know that you are interested in the subject area and would like, potentially, to collaborate on articles in the area. All the best, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 23:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The Brown book used as a reference calls Santa Maria a "comic opera". See A+History+of+the+New+York+Stage:+From+the+First+Performance+in+1732+to+1901'&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 00:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
To merge converstion from Oscar Hammerstein I's bio talk page: I quite agree that what is needed here is data rather than improvisation of a classification system. Comic operas and operettas certainly need to be distinguished from other operas, and any classification system that doesn't distinguish between them needs a second look. The score to Santa Maria is, of course, unavailable, but the hit song from the "opera" which had a "remarkable run" (in a Broadway theatre with a Broadway cast) can be viewed and downloaded from the Levy Sheet Music Collection at [1]. "Comic opera" it may be; fine art it ain't. - Nunh-huh 00:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that when user:Kosboot changed the article's name back to Santa Maria (musical) from Santa Maria (opera) he didn't actually move this article. What he did was a delete and copy paste. This action messed up the article's edit history so I have gone ahead and undone this edit. This is in no way meant to subvert the discussion above or assert that this should be the final name of the article. It was merely done to preserve the article's edit history. Singingdaisies ( talk) 07:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the change by the anonymous user, which seemed merely to delete referenced information. If you have a legitimate edit to make, please explain to us what you are trying to do. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday I spent considerable time researching and cleaning up this article. I don't understand why the original review from the New York Times keeps getting deleted. Removing valid information isn't improving the article at all. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 16:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
BTW, the change by 63.3.15.129 did not merely delete referenced information. It restored the better plot synopsis and the quote from the New York Times. Please compare versions before making inaccurate claims. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 16:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Why was Edna May Pettie mentioned in the first paragraph? Just because she's the only cast member than can be linked? She wasn't the star, and it's not like she was the equivalent of Beverly Sills or Leontyne Price and is worthy of mention in the very beginning of the article. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 16:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I listed my sources yesterday and they are still there. Unfortunately Singingdaisies made a mess of the article's history when she moved the article so you can't tell which additions were mine. The Times review wasn't "buried" - it was in the reception section I created, you just didnm't take the time to read the article. There isn't any reason to talk about the stage effects in the opening and again in a production section unless you're trying to make the article look longer than it really is. Editors do not have to use a screen name to have "more editing privileges", their work is just as valuable and sometimes better than people with screen names. 209.247.22.164 ( talk) 18:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
J F Cone in New Grove Dictionary of Opera calls this an 'operetta'. As per Ssilvers, I think this belongs with the works of Victor Herbert, Rudolf Friml and Sigmund Romberg. (BTW Singingdaisies will not be writing here any longer: it was one of Nrswanson's many sockpuppets.) -- Klein zach 08:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I see you've moved the article, but you didn't update the links from the other articles that link to it. Were you planning to take care of that? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Never mind, there were just a few, and I fixed them. It's easy to find them: After you move an article, just click on "What links here" and then go to those articles to update the links. Best regards, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:53, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Welcome back. I hope you were having fun rather than working too hard. Happy editing! Oh! BTW, speaking of Nrswanson, s/he did a huge expansion of the Victor Herbert article some months ago, based on two books that s/he had. I finally got him/her to specify which book s/he sourced the information from in each paragraph, and s/he promised to supply the page numbers, but didn't get to it, and later s/he was blocked, I guess, and so there are numerous cites in the article that have no page references. Do you know anyone who could fill in the page numbers? It's a shame for all that great information to be incompletely referenced. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 23:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)