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Involving anon user(s) 172.144.176.39 (who may or may not be the same as 4.225.239.254), and IslandGyrl regarding the following paragraph:
IslandGyrl argues that the above passage had been in a form acceptable to many editors of diverse opinions and that up till now the consensus of serious historical commentators has been dismissive of the Morgan report; hence a passage giving it credence equal to that of the Blount report is POV and a distortion. Furthermore, though some dissent, the conspiracy is widely regarded as established fact, much more so than the words "many allege" would suggest; after all, the U.S. government itself used the word "conspirators" and essentially pleaded guilty as charged in the 1993 Apology Resolution.
Arguments by user 172.144.176.39 may be found below.
Added note by Anon user, the Apology Resolution cited by IslandGyrl as admission by the US government to the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is being questioned.
Slade Gorton and Hank Brown, American Senators who voted against this resolution, have described it as being a piece of historical revisionism. They wrote, "The Apology Resolution distorted historical truths. It falsely claimed that the U.S. participated in the wrongful overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani in 1893. The U.S. remained strictly neutral. It provided neither arms, nor economic assistance, nor diplomatic support to a band of Hawaiian insurgents, who prevailed without firing a single shot, largely because neither the Native Hawaiian numerical majority nor the queen's own government resisted the end of the Hawaiian Kingdom." The full article can be found be found here:
xxxx://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007117
A rebuttal of the points claimed in this law can be found here:
xxxx://www.angelfire.com/hi5/bigfiles3/AkakaHawaiiDividedFeinJune2005.pdf
As noted, this is still being very much disputed. As such, to maintain neutrality the changes made by the anon user should be left as is. 172.158.67.230 00:27, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
"Yes, the case made for the Apology Resolution is disputed, but the resolution did pass the Senate with a 65-34 majority and a two-thirds voice vote in the House."
The US Senate is one of the worst places to get historically accurate facts. It is all politics. Do you believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction as the Senate claimed when authorizing the Iraq War in 2003? There is reason to be dubious of the validity of the Apology Resoultion as it was passed in a partisan manner for political reasons.
Simple fact is this, Wikipedia requires NPOV editing. This article now reflects this by presenting two sides to an ongoing and active historical dispute. Removal of the paragraph in question will result in a one-sided article which will not accurately reflect this topic. 141.209.34.54 12:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
It is worth expanding this. I don't want to stay at tit-for-tat on this with you. I have four degrees and work at a university. Edit wars at Wikipedia are not my favorite activities. I much would rather being doing anonymous peer review on manuscripts to articles submitted to the history journal I am a peer reviewer for. The edits are accepted or the paper is rejected. :]
I trust you are sincere (but a bit historically confused due to one-sided portrayls of Hawaiian history you have heard all of your life) and I am not trying to antagonize you.
I want to keep the part on how the events of the overthrow are portrayed. Only in Hawaii is a local revolt were no guns are fired, no battles are fought, no one is killed, and then the government that supposedly engineered the revolt issues a report rejecting the entire endeavor called an invasion! This unique "invasion" is a product of the local indegenious population seeing history through a certain frame that has been expanded by historians and politicians unwillgness to look "politically incorrect" when dealing with 1893. (This is also why some people who should know better still argue that Cleopatra was black even though history clearly records she was of Macedonian descent.)
How can we phrase this article to show that many educated reasonable people reject the view that the US was involved? Throw out some samples here we can play with.
Also, there is nothing wrong with noting that Dole had racial views that would not be accepted today. However, be careful not to overdue this. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves but he still was an advocate for freedom. Margaret Sanger believed in eugentics and believed abortion and birth control would be helpful in keeping the black population under control but she still was a great advocate for women's rights. It is easy to pick and choose words the dead have spoken to make them look bad by judging them by standards we have today. Go ahead and try some language but let's keep the general tone of the article positive.
I will be out and about for a few days. I am not sure if I will have easy internet access. If I do, you will soon be seeing another new anonymous IP address here. :]
I'll check in when I can and see what you have proposed. 172.168.70.246 01:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have trouble seeing how labelling the overthrow of the monarchy as a revolution is POV. At the start of 1893, the Kingdom of Hawaii was in place. At the end of 1893, the Republic of Hawaii was in place. Changes in governments like this are called revolutions when they don't occur due to votes...
How is this pro-annexation POV? It is simply stating the facts.
American marines landed in Hawaii but did not fire any shots. Local insurgents (almost all of who were Hawaiian citizens like Sanford Dole), were responsible for the change of government. Many of the Queen's cabinet urged her to abdicate and she did. This is not historical revisionism but a fact. Wikipedia is supposed to be non-POV. Before I post a note about the neutrality of this article being disputed, I would appreciate a response from IslandGyrl.
In the spirit of cooperation, I have altered the disputed subheading to "Overthrow of the Monarchy and Establishment of the Hawaiian Republic" from Overthrow even though "Hawaiian Revolution" is more accurate. I realize due to potilitical biases, no mutually satisfactory resolution can happen but hopefully the compromise heading can be accepted. 172.141.69.142 03:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough in your response. I disagree with your interpretation of Hawaiian history but I understand your POV on how Hawaiian Revolution can be seen as NPOV.
However, overthrow is a NPOV term to many of us who disagree (with good reasons) with this view of history. Overthrow is an accuate term (the monarchy was thrown out) but it is emotionally charged now as Hawaiian Independence people throw it around in a way that distorts history. There was no American invasion (no fighting, no deaths, the insurgency was locally based, etc.) and to see the facts continually mistated on the web, by Hawaiian soveriegnty activists, the Blount Report, and by Congress in 1993 is annoying in the extreme.
As such, I am changing ovethrow to end. It is less politically charged. If you have disputes with this, post here. I don't check every day but I will monitor this page (and others).
"Just to clarify one specific fact for everyone: the Republic was not "in place" at the end of 1893—the Provisional Government lasted until July 4, 1894."
Thanks for the correction. You are right. 172.170.10.65 04:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC==)
As I edited this article, I realize that Wikipedia needs new articles on the Blount Report and the Morgan Report. I'll add these soon if no one else does. (And edit them extensively if they are biased if someone else does.) I am hindered by the fact that the pro-Hawaiian Sovereignty Blount report is reproduced on dozens of sites on the Web while no one has bothered to put the very different Morgan Report online. I know how to scan and can get that latter report up online soon... 4.225.239.254 03:05, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
"There is nothing wrong with mentioning the Morgan report, but it is obscure and harder to find on the Web for a reason: perhaps few people take it seriously as being anything other than a smokescreen or whitewash?"
No, it is not online because it is "politically incorrect" and does not represent the "correct" version of history being portrayed the sovereignty movement. But Wikipedia is not a soap box (although it is sometimes...)
"Certainly for many folks in Hawai‘i, contending there was no U.S. involvement in the end of the monarchy and Hawaiian independence has about as much plausibility as giving equal time in Wikipedia to Holocaust denial."
There is a similarity here. False claims that there was a US invasion (no one died, there were no battles, locals planned and then took charge, etc.) is historical revisionism akin to holocaust deniers. And like holocause deniers, it is impossible to reason with the Hawaiian Soveriegnty people sometimes. And there probably was American involvement. It does not change the legality of the revolt. The French aided the Americans in the American Revolution. The Soviets aided the Cubans in the Cuban Revolution. Foriegn involvement in revolutions is normal and does not alter the validity of the revolutions.
Readding and please don't revert without discussion.
"Dole was successful as a diplomat as every nation that recognized the Kingdom of Hawaii also recognized the Republic of Hawaii."
This is factually true. Why try to delete it?
"The history of this event is disputed at this point. Many claim the group conspired with U.S. ambassador John L. Stevens to land the United States Marine Corps, forcibly remove Queen Liliʻuokalani from power, and declare a Provisional Government of Hawaiʻi consisting of members from the Committee of Safety. This version is supported by the Blount Report.Others claim that the insurgency was locally based and that American troops only served to protect American property and citizens and had no role in the end of the Hawaiian Monarchy. This version is supported by the Morgan Report. Regardless, the monarchy ended in January 1893."
This is factually true as well. Why delete one reference source from the federal government yet keep another. Do we only add references to the ones we agree with? I favor adding links to both to allow the reader to investigate the issue.
"The group conspired with U.S. ambassador John L. Stevens to land the United States Marine Corps, forcibly remove Queen Liliʻuokalani from power, and declare a Provisional Government of Hawaiʻi consisting of members from the Committee of Safety. The group succeeded in seizing power by these means in January 1893."
I am keeping this but adding alleged. This is not proven as fact. And the marines fired no shots, killed no one, etc so to claim they "forcibly" removeed the Queen is factually incorrect. But in the spirit of compromise...
Best regards. I have the feeling my response here is pointless and you only want to add your one-sided view. But I am willing to try some dialogue. 172.144.176.39 03:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
i dont get it?? -- 70.95.54.81
JK: this seems a relatively easy one. A revolution really denotes a total change of government, while a revolt is simply a rebellion against those in power. Given that the 1887 events did not effect a change in governmental structure -- it may have emasculated the kingdom, but it certainly did not topple it, don't you think "revolt" captures the sense more accurately? I'm open to other suggestions, but "revolution" seems hyperbole. I'm not rvv-ing as I think discussion is a measure of respect, which I'm sure is the spirit both of us intend. Arjuna 10:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
JK, I have a big problem with your edits, which are wholly misleading and POV. However, I am at 2RR and don't want to go to 3. This needs third party comments. Arjuna 06:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Uh, excuse me, but that Stevens supported the overthrow is so obvious and well-documented that to deny it is nothing short of amazing. Did you make a misstatement perhaps? Failing that, one can only assume disingenuousness. Not to mention his private assurances of support to Thurston et al, and to only mention that he deployed the troops "to protect safety" is BS and I know you know it is. As for the citations, what is it with you? A simple mention of a non-controversial historical fact needs no citation -- this is Writing 101. I know you know that. I suspect you are trying to cite TTS and others in almost every article, even when there are far better sources to cite (and I know you have them) simply to boost their page ranks. Yes, I have read the things you mention, or rather skimmed them -- one doesn't need to eat a whole apple to know it's bad. Sorry, but I find it jejune. So look, I know you can do better than this -- I am all in favor of compromise but you seem to be bullheaded on some common sense stuff. Ok, I'm done venting now, but seriously -- come on. C/m/t, Arjuna 09:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
JK, as I stated, one doesn't have to eat the whole apple to know it's bad. I've read as much as I can stomach and find it bad analysis. Spare me the faux condescension. I just don't buy TTS at all. c/m Arjuna 04:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The above war seems to have died down, but my real question is why there is much at all on this article about the troops: is there any source that Dole was involved with them? I plan to cut out most of the unsourced stuff and concentrate on his recorded career as a Judge for example which seems to be downplayed here. Sources indicate it was Cooper who chaired the committee for example, Dole's name was not on it. W Nowicki ( talk) 00:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Need to mention his father Daniel Dole, who is probably notable enough to merit his own article. I think he was founder and first principal of Punahou School. W Nowicki ( talk) 23:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry it took a year but I finally did an article on his father. Now I see this one needs a lot of work on citations, sigh. W Nowicki ( talk) 00:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
(also did one on his grandpa Wigglesworth Dole - such a great name)
More problems I see: not really primarily "politician" since he was only elected as representative, important positions were appointed; confuses cabinet (had power) with Pricy Council (essectially honorary); says "wealthy" while my sources say his parents were teachers, hardly a high-paying profession; Thurston did not "write" the constitution of 1887, maybe was a major agitator for it; it did not "impose" property restrictions but did raise them; mentioned James twice, but his cousin the Attorney General not mentioned etc. Although of course we need sourcing, from what I can tell, Dole was chosen mostly because he was considered an "outsider" (grew up on Kauai not Oahu, was serving in the Kingdom court, considered "above the fray"). He certainly knew and had similar ethnic background to the Committee of Safety people, but we should not infer guilt by association. I will work a bit on it. W Nowicki ( talk) 22:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
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Involving anon user(s) 172.144.176.39 (who may or may not be the same as 4.225.239.254), and IslandGyrl regarding the following paragraph:
IslandGyrl argues that the above passage had been in a form acceptable to many editors of diverse opinions and that up till now the consensus of serious historical commentators has been dismissive of the Morgan report; hence a passage giving it credence equal to that of the Blount report is POV and a distortion. Furthermore, though some dissent, the conspiracy is widely regarded as established fact, much more so than the words "many allege" would suggest; after all, the U.S. government itself used the word "conspirators" and essentially pleaded guilty as charged in the 1993 Apology Resolution.
Arguments by user 172.144.176.39 may be found below.
Added note by Anon user, the Apology Resolution cited by IslandGyrl as admission by the US government to the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is being questioned.
Slade Gorton and Hank Brown, American Senators who voted against this resolution, have described it as being a piece of historical revisionism. They wrote, "The Apology Resolution distorted historical truths. It falsely claimed that the U.S. participated in the wrongful overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani in 1893. The U.S. remained strictly neutral. It provided neither arms, nor economic assistance, nor diplomatic support to a band of Hawaiian insurgents, who prevailed without firing a single shot, largely because neither the Native Hawaiian numerical majority nor the queen's own government resisted the end of the Hawaiian Kingdom." The full article can be found be found here:
xxxx://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007117
A rebuttal of the points claimed in this law can be found here:
xxxx://www.angelfire.com/hi5/bigfiles3/AkakaHawaiiDividedFeinJune2005.pdf
As noted, this is still being very much disputed. As such, to maintain neutrality the changes made by the anon user should be left as is. 172.158.67.230 00:27, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
"Yes, the case made for the Apology Resolution is disputed, but the resolution did pass the Senate with a 65-34 majority and a two-thirds voice vote in the House."
The US Senate is one of the worst places to get historically accurate facts. It is all politics. Do you believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction as the Senate claimed when authorizing the Iraq War in 2003? There is reason to be dubious of the validity of the Apology Resoultion as it was passed in a partisan manner for political reasons.
Simple fact is this, Wikipedia requires NPOV editing. This article now reflects this by presenting two sides to an ongoing and active historical dispute. Removal of the paragraph in question will result in a one-sided article which will not accurately reflect this topic. 141.209.34.54 12:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
It is worth expanding this. I don't want to stay at tit-for-tat on this with you. I have four degrees and work at a university. Edit wars at Wikipedia are not my favorite activities. I much would rather being doing anonymous peer review on manuscripts to articles submitted to the history journal I am a peer reviewer for. The edits are accepted or the paper is rejected. :]
I trust you are sincere (but a bit historically confused due to one-sided portrayls of Hawaiian history you have heard all of your life) and I am not trying to antagonize you.
I want to keep the part on how the events of the overthrow are portrayed. Only in Hawaii is a local revolt were no guns are fired, no battles are fought, no one is killed, and then the government that supposedly engineered the revolt issues a report rejecting the entire endeavor called an invasion! This unique "invasion" is a product of the local indegenious population seeing history through a certain frame that has been expanded by historians and politicians unwillgness to look "politically incorrect" when dealing with 1893. (This is also why some people who should know better still argue that Cleopatra was black even though history clearly records she was of Macedonian descent.)
How can we phrase this article to show that many educated reasonable people reject the view that the US was involved? Throw out some samples here we can play with.
Also, there is nothing wrong with noting that Dole had racial views that would not be accepted today. However, be careful not to overdue this. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves but he still was an advocate for freedom. Margaret Sanger believed in eugentics and believed abortion and birth control would be helpful in keeping the black population under control but she still was a great advocate for women's rights. It is easy to pick and choose words the dead have spoken to make them look bad by judging them by standards we have today. Go ahead and try some language but let's keep the general tone of the article positive.
I will be out and about for a few days. I am not sure if I will have easy internet access. If I do, you will soon be seeing another new anonymous IP address here. :]
I'll check in when I can and see what you have proposed. 172.168.70.246 01:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have trouble seeing how labelling the overthrow of the monarchy as a revolution is POV. At the start of 1893, the Kingdom of Hawaii was in place. At the end of 1893, the Republic of Hawaii was in place. Changes in governments like this are called revolutions when they don't occur due to votes...
How is this pro-annexation POV? It is simply stating the facts.
American marines landed in Hawaii but did not fire any shots. Local insurgents (almost all of who were Hawaiian citizens like Sanford Dole), were responsible for the change of government. Many of the Queen's cabinet urged her to abdicate and she did. This is not historical revisionism but a fact. Wikipedia is supposed to be non-POV. Before I post a note about the neutrality of this article being disputed, I would appreciate a response from IslandGyrl.
In the spirit of cooperation, I have altered the disputed subheading to "Overthrow of the Monarchy and Establishment of the Hawaiian Republic" from Overthrow even though "Hawaiian Revolution" is more accurate. I realize due to potilitical biases, no mutually satisfactory resolution can happen but hopefully the compromise heading can be accepted. 172.141.69.142 03:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough in your response. I disagree with your interpretation of Hawaiian history but I understand your POV on how Hawaiian Revolution can be seen as NPOV.
However, overthrow is a NPOV term to many of us who disagree (with good reasons) with this view of history. Overthrow is an accuate term (the monarchy was thrown out) but it is emotionally charged now as Hawaiian Independence people throw it around in a way that distorts history. There was no American invasion (no fighting, no deaths, the insurgency was locally based, etc.) and to see the facts continually mistated on the web, by Hawaiian soveriegnty activists, the Blount Report, and by Congress in 1993 is annoying in the extreme.
As such, I am changing ovethrow to end. It is less politically charged. If you have disputes with this, post here. I don't check every day but I will monitor this page (and others).
"Just to clarify one specific fact for everyone: the Republic was not "in place" at the end of 1893—the Provisional Government lasted until July 4, 1894."
Thanks for the correction. You are right. 172.170.10.65 04:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC==)
As I edited this article, I realize that Wikipedia needs new articles on the Blount Report and the Morgan Report. I'll add these soon if no one else does. (And edit them extensively if they are biased if someone else does.) I am hindered by the fact that the pro-Hawaiian Sovereignty Blount report is reproduced on dozens of sites on the Web while no one has bothered to put the very different Morgan Report online. I know how to scan and can get that latter report up online soon... 4.225.239.254 03:05, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
"There is nothing wrong with mentioning the Morgan report, but it is obscure and harder to find on the Web for a reason: perhaps few people take it seriously as being anything other than a smokescreen or whitewash?"
No, it is not online because it is "politically incorrect" and does not represent the "correct" version of history being portrayed the sovereignty movement. But Wikipedia is not a soap box (although it is sometimes...)
"Certainly for many folks in Hawai‘i, contending there was no U.S. involvement in the end of the monarchy and Hawaiian independence has about as much plausibility as giving equal time in Wikipedia to Holocaust denial."
There is a similarity here. False claims that there was a US invasion (no one died, there were no battles, locals planned and then took charge, etc.) is historical revisionism akin to holocaust deniers. And like holocause deniers, it is impossible to reason with the Hawaiian Soveriegnty people sometimes. And there probably was American involvement. It does not change the legality of the revolt. The French aided the Americans in the American Revolution. The Soviets aided the Cubans in the Cuban Revolution. Foriegn involvement in revolutions is normal and does not alter the validity of the revolutions.
Readding and please don't revert without discussion.
"Dole was successful as a diplomat as every nation that recognized the Kingdom of Hawaii also recognized the Republic of Hawaii."
This is factually true. Why try to delete it?
"The history of this event is disputed at this point. Many claim the group conspired with U.S. ambassador John L. Stevens to land the United States Marine Corps, forcibly remove Queen Liliʻuokalani from power, and declare a Provisional Government of Hawaiʻi consisting of members from the Committee of Safety. This version is supported by the Blount Report.Others claim that the insurgency was locally based and that American troops only served to protect American property and citizens and had no role in the end of the Hawaiian Monarchy. This version is supported by the Morgan Report. Regardless, the monarchy ended in January 1893."
This is factually true as well. Why delete one reference source from the federal government yet keep another. Do we only add references to the ones we agree with? I favor adding links to both to allow the reader to investigate the issue.
"The group conspired with U.S. ambassador John L. Stevens to land the United States Marine Corps, forcibly remove Queen Liliʻuokalani from power, and declare a Provisional Government of Hawaiʻi consisting of members from the Committee of Safety. The group succeeded in seizing power by these means in January 1893."
I am keeping this but adding alleged. This is not proven as fact. And the marines fired no shots, killed no one, etc so to claim they "forcibly" removeed the Queen is factually incorrect. But in the spirit of compromise...
Best regards. I have the feeling my response here is pointless and you only want to add your one-sided view. But I am willing to try some dialogue. 172.144.176.39 03:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
i dont get it?? -- 70.95.54.81
JK: this seems a relatively easy one. A revolution really denotes a total change of government, while a revolt is simply a rebellion against those in power. Given that the 1887 events did not effect a change in governmental structure -- it may have emasculated the kingdom, but it certainly did not topple it, don't you think "revolt" captures the sense more accurately? I'm open to other suggestions, but "revolution" seems hyperbole. I'm not rvv-ing as I think discussion is a measure of respect, which I'm sure is the spirit both of us intend. Arjuna 10:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
JK, I have a big problem with your edits, which are wholly misleading and POV. However, I am at 2RR and don't want to go to 3. This needs third party comments. Arjuna 06:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Uh, excuse me, but that Stevens supported the overthrow is so obvious and well-documented that to deny it is nothing short of amazing. Did you make a misstatement perhaps? Failing that, one can only assume disingenuousness. Not to mention his private assurances of support to Thurston et al, and to only mention that he deployed the troops "to protect safety" is BS and I know you know it is. As for the citations, what is it with you? A simple mention of a non-controversial historical fact needs no citation -- this is Writing 101. I know you know that. I suspect you are trying to cite TTS and others in almost every article, even when there are far better sources to cite (and I know you have them) simply to boost their page ranks. Yes, I have read the things you mention, or rather skimmed them -- one doesn't need to eat a whole apple to know it's bad. Sorry, but I find it jejune. So look, I know you can do better than this -- I am all in favor of compromise but you seem to be bullheaded on some common sense stuff. Ok, I'm done venting now, but seriously -- come on. C/m/t, Arjuna 09:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
JK, as I stated, one doesn't have to eat the whole apple to know it's bad. I've read as much as I can stomach and find it bad analysis. Spare me the faux condescension. I just don't buy TTS at all. c/m Arjuna 04:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The above war seems to have died down, but my real question is why there is much at all on this article about the troops: is there any source that Dole was involved with them? I plan to cut out most of the unsourced stuff and concentrate on his recorded career as a Judge for example which seems to be downplayed here. Sources indicate it was Cooper who chaired the committee for example, Dole's name was not on it. W Nowicki ( talk) 00:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Need to mention his father Daniel Dole, who is probably notable enough to merit his own article. I think he was founder and first principal of Punahou School. W Nowicki ( talk) 23:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry it took a year but I finally did an article on his father. Now I see this one needs a lot of work on citations, sigh. W Nowicki ( talk) 00:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
(also did one on his grandpa Wigglesworth Dole - such a great name)
More problems I see: not really primarily "politician" since he was only elected as representative, important positions were appointed; confuses cabinet (had power) with Pricy Council (essectially honorary); says "wealthy" while my sources say his parents were teachers, hardly a high-paying profession; Thurston did not "write" the constitution of 1887, maybe was a major agitator for it; it did not "impose" property restrictions but did raise them; mentioned James twice, but his cousin the Attorney General not mentioned etc. Although of course we need sourcing, from what I can tell, Dole was chosen mostly because he was considered an "outsider" (grew up on Kauai not Oahu, was serving in the Kingdom court, considered "above the fray"). He certainly knew and had similar ethnic background to the Committee of Safety people, but we should not infer guilt by association. I will work a bit on it. W Nowicki ( talk) 22:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Sanford B. Dole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:56, 7 December 2017 (UTC)