This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sandy Berger article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm just passing by here, but I just fixed what I think a serious violation in the intro summary. The body of the article and actual charges support the case that copies of information were taken out of the classified archives and later disposed of, and also presents the notable controversy and speculation that original documents could also have been taken/destroyed. The previous summary said "theft and subsequent destruction of classified documents from the National Archives in Washington" which to my ears clearly implies removal and destruction of the documents themselves, as opposed to the radically different breach of mishandling copies of classified documents. Presenting the notable controversy and speculation in the body of the article is appropriate, but I think it a pretty serious Wikipedia violation to implicitly present the unsupported speculative case as fact in the intro. Hopefully my edit (I forgot to log in when I did it) to the intro informs the reader clearly on both issues and satisfies everyone. Alsee 16:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I feel that mere speculation is given too much importance in the into (EX:"notable controversy and speculation that he might have removed or destroyed originals of other unknown documents"). The DOJ has made it's position VERY clear -- they stand by their investigation in that there is absolutely no proof that originals were destroyed or removed. If Wiki begins to give credence to every conspiracy theorist in the main body of an entry, they become no better than a blog. User:justmyopinion 3:03 January 29 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.22.91 ( talk) 07:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Some consideration should be lent toward the scope of this article.
If questions regarding the timing of the publicity of the investigation are valid, then it is also valid to point out opposition to the contemptable attempt to glaze over the deed itself.
We agree this is a legal matter, subject to legal evaluation, which is still in progress. I am not sure if your reference to contemptible applies to me, to the action, Sandy Berger or what? How can you possibly say that something which is under investigation has property X? Actions occur in contexts, I think you agree, and you have not considered the context. CSTAR 19:00, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"contemptible" applies to 'attempt[s] to glaze over the deed itself'. Not to individuals discussing the matter here.
We all know why a person answers questions about A with questions about B. From what I have heard of Berger's admissions, Berger broke the law. I do not believe Berger is an 'evil spy'. I do not doubt that the timing was 'politically motivated'. I do not see the latter as an answer to questions about the former.
This is indeed a legal matter. Berger admitted to actions that are against the law. That is absolutely true. Whether the man is convicted or punished for his crime is another matter which I've not raised in the article.
OK there seems to be a lot of discussion ;) trying to settle on some satisfactory account of events. I'll be be optimistic and see if there is some possibility of dialogue.
Previous editor argues: There is no reason to remove factual information from article
Anyway I would like to encourage reasonable dialogue on this, even though we may be miles apart on some of the issues. CSTAR 18:58, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"Some suggested that Berger's removal of the documents constituted theft and moreover had serious national security implications. Also, some have voiced suspicion about the timing of the leak of the investigation, suggesting it might have been intended to distract attention from the release of the 9/11 Commission report later that week and the Democratic National Convention the following week."
Can we have quotes on these "suggestions" by "some"? At least links to one article that makes these suggestions and suspicions, rather than the ad hoc and intellectually fallible use of "some"?
-- Xinoph 22:27, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
Article appears completely factual NPOV is uncalled for. If Berger deserves defense for the crime he's already pled guilty to that defense should be added as long as it's also factual. If something in the article is wrong that should be discussed hee and corrected/proven in the article - Honest Abe 13 Aug 05
A change was made because the other statement was simply false. The comittee hearings did not conclude what was stated. Even the link provided did not make this claim, and of course this is all public information. Nancy Kegan Smith stated she wouldn't have known if originals were stolen, but the comittee actually noted that claim was not true since she gave him the originals in her office and they were returned to her subsequently. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.0.131.236 (
talk)
16:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I would like to know what could possibly be the reasons why the classified documents were removed? BridgettK ( talk) 11:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Hillman said: "...the five iterations of the anti-terror "after-action" report at issue in the case were printed out from a hard drive at the Archives and have no notations at all." This is insufficient information because past statements made by administration officials and complicit sycophants often argued minutia. (What the meaning of "is" is, or "that legal rule does not apply because there is no legal ruling authority.") Were the destroyed documents printed out just for Berger's use - or were they pre-existing documents that others had access to? If so, did others add contemporaneous comments to them, or not? How can we be sure? Were the copies, to which Hillman referred, made for the archive from an electronic source file, or were they original copies made for an NSA meeting and handed out to partricipants at that meeting who may have added comments.
Occam's razor says stealing documents by putting them in one's underwear - when a briefcase is available (which he admits to having), but bears the potential of a casual search - indicates a motive of secrecy. Removing multiple copies of the same document in such a manner by the same logic indicates a need to cover up some damaging content that is either in all of them or was added after they were printed out.
Corollary motives could be argued: Berger did not know the memos he stole out of the archives and destroyed were copies, so the destruction may have been an incorrect assumption that their destruction erased their ability to be examined. Or Berger knew they were copies, so stole them in such a covert manner, in order to have access to them for future reference. WmLambert 14:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC-5)
Berger put no documents in his underwear, only in his pockets. Please don't post unbacked partisan rhetoric. JamieMcCarthy 13:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I have blanked the section discussing the media response to Mr. Berger's conviction (in particular, the demotion of his significance to Sen. Kerry's campaign in news articles). The section did not have high-quality references (in fact it had no references) and therefore did not conform to the Biographies of living persons standard. I think it would be extremely useful information to this article if it is true, but only if it cites high-quality sources.
![]() | This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
-- Burzum 06:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The article also needs some explanation of how Berger graduated college in 1967 but was able to be in law school when LBJ ended graduate school deferments (other than medical and dental) with his June 30, 1967 article. Berger was long overweight, so perhaps he had some medical reason, but this is a gigantic omission in an article on a person interested in public policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.238.77 ( talk) 02:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the document stolen in September? The external link from the Washington Post states that the staff was suspicious of Berger after the first incident of missing documents. It is only because of these suspicions that they actually set a trap and caught him in October. It seems biased to neglect to mention this fact. It seems more likely that he got away with at least one theft and only caught later.
The section "Convicted of mishandling classified terror documents" appears to be a copyright infringement. I have reverted the section to the last clean version on 23:26 7 Sep 2006 (UTC) in accordance with WP:CP.
-- Burzum 22:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The section being disputed clearly falls under Fair-Use, even Wiki's tight policy concerning it. To quote: "Brief attributed quotations of copyrighted text used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea may be used under fair use. Text must be used verbatim: any alterations must be clearly marked as an ellipsis ([...]) or insertion ([added text]) or change of emphasis (emphasis added). All copyrighted text must be attributed."
To detail further, the statements of Prosecutor Hillman (whether drawn from The Wall Street Journal or some other source) are, as a US government official operating in his public capacity, in the Public domain. The few brief statements of opinion from the WSJ are used to illustrate a point, clearly attributed, and the original references are hyperlinked. In addition, much of the remaining text is homegrown wiki material.
Depending on other people's input, it may be reasonable to trim some of the quoted sections in the established text. But reversion to a version a year old that includes factual inaccuracies is not a viable solution, and you would be well advised to build up support before making such drastic changes.
Anonymous Wikipedian 04:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the removed text. It doesn't look like copyvio to me, either. Could you be more specific, Burzum? Bryan 05:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- - - I went ahead and removed the paragraph that Burzum found offensive, not merely for a COPYVIO but a more obvious lack of pertenence to the subject. This is the page on Sandy Berger, not anyone else, and for that reason alone it should have been dropped. The other section was restored. -- 71.111.74.251 06:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC) (it's really me; I forgot to log in Anonymous Wikipedian 06:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC))
I'm beginning to feel that if we have a "Controversies" section, we need some sort of matching "Accomplishements" to match it. Otherwise it really feels like we're not adhering to a NPOV guidelines.
This is, quite frankly, something I see a lot of in wiki-biographies of political figures. There's some neutral stuff at the top about age, position held, wife, kids, resume, etc - and then a "Controversies" about every criticism published about them over the course of their public careers. Cataloging every critique doesn't seem fair. But worse, it's not accurate.
In the present article, I have no idea how good Berger was at his job. I strongly suspect he was neither the best or worst. But given how long the man held his job, I think he had to have had something going for him, right?
I'm not adding anything at the moment; too often a talk page is just an ex-postfacto justification for a massive hack on the database. I'm not doing that. I want to see whether other people see the same thing as I do.
-- Anonymous Wikipedian 06:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added a bunch of "cit needed" tags to the article. I will try to find the original sources myself, but if I don't, I will remove the uncited info from the article within two weeks, save anyone else finding the citations. Regards, -- Jayzel 06:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I really think that inclusion of petty criticism of a "leak" over the investigation of Berger should not be included in an bio about Berger himself. First, investigations of government officials are not state secrets. Second, do you honestly think an investigation of a former national security advisor for theft and destruction of documents could possibly be kept silent by all those involved (archive workers, justice department people, FBI, et al). Third, it may have had some worthwhile significance while the investigation was ongoing, but now that berger pleaded guilty it seems like an almost silly complaint. Lastly, again as this is a biographical article about Berger, the info seems inappropriate as it does not directly relate to Berger himself. Its not criticism of or by Berger, but by a third party towards investigators. Regards, -- Jayzel 01:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous Wikipedian 02:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is really skewed against Berger, particularly the section about his presumed guilt or innocence. I don't believe the paragraph beginning with
Mr Berger must have had a reason to steal and destroy the documents.
is really encyclopedic - it corresponds more to a petulant rant. I for one would happily erase it. -- Feralcats 21:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are 2 WSJ opinion pieces being included in the section on the mishandling of classified documents? Gmb92 06:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to section "Convicted of mishandling classified terror documents":
I tried to iron out a few things, but the section is still not really well-structured. There's lots of jumping back and forth in the topic and in the timeline.
-- 193.99.145.162 16:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Once again, we have an editor (76.16.180.16) attempting to insert the "hiding in socks" issue due to his/her discovery of a "new" source (a WaPo story from 4 years ago). This matter has been investigated and it has been discussed (see above paragraphs). Here is (76.16.180.16)'s edit:
"On July 19, 2004, it was revealed that the U.S. Justice Department was investigating Berger for unauthorized removal of classified documents in October 2003 from a National Archives reading room prior to testifying before the 9/11 Commission, by wrapping them around his socks and beneath his pants.[16]"
Here's what the "new" source actually says (italics mine):
“Under debate during the Nov. 23, 2004, meeting was Brachfeld's contention that President Clinton's former national security adviser Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger could have stolen original, uncatalogued, highly classified terrorism documents 14 months earlier by wrapping them around his socks and beneath his pants, as National Archives staff member John Laster reported witnessing."
Obviously, the Justice Dept was not was investigating Berger for unauthorized removal of classified documents in October 2003 from a National Archives reading room prior to testifying before the 9/11 Commission, by wrapping them around his socks and beneath his pants.
The edit misrepresents what the source says. It is a violation of WP:BLP. If reintroduced, I will take it to the BLP noticeboard. Cronos1 ( talk) 01:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
References
This article seems to concentrate on a tiny portion of the history of Sandy Berger's career in public life, at some risk to the public record.
It would be good to pay attention to Berger's role in chasing al Quaeda and Osama bin Laden. He was the guy on the National Security staff who was assigned to "get" bin Laden -- there is no mention of that role at all.
Importantly, there is also no mention of his role in passing the torch of the get-bin-Laden effort to the Bush administration, who refused to take it.
Berger's distinguished career in making good things happen, and in trying to prevent further violence, is completely absent from the article.
See Charlie Rose Show archives, [here] http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2004/06/03/2/a-conversation-with-guest-host-fareed-zakaria-chuck-hagel-and-sandy-berger-about-the-resignation-of-george-tenet
Here's an old Washington Post story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/keyplayers/berger070797.htm
Here's a column in the NY Times with perspective: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9500E6DF133CF930A35752C1A9649C8B63 And more: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E0D7103DF933A15750C0A9679C8B63
Edarrell ( talk) 18:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the unsourced assertion of the existence of a speculative allegation that Berger "may have" destroyed something as a BLP violation. This accusation was tagged as unsourced over a month ago. Wowest ( talk) 13:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
The document "Sandy Berger's Theft of Classified Documents: Unanswered Questions" (Staff Report, US House of Representatives, 110th Congress) makes it clear that he lied and schemed repeatedly in an effort to cover up his theft of classified National Archives documents. While I understand the desire to appear "neutral" in these Wiki biographies, there is no neutrality in excluding unsavory facts about the character of the biographee. As for the argument that such references to character are somehow irrelevant, I'm hard-pressed to think of something more important to know about a high government official than the fact that he lied about stealing national security secrets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.59.111 ( talk) 21:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Sandy Berger. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:04, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Sandy Berger. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:17, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
The article doesn't talk about why SB removed documents. Is there a usable source that talks about this? Kdammers ( talk) 01:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sandy Berger article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm just passing by here, but I just fixed what I think a serious violation in the intro summary. The body of the article and actual charges support the case that copies of information were taken out of the classified archives and later disposed of, and also presents the notable controversy and speculation that original documents could also have been taken/destroyed. The previous summary said "theft and subsequent destruction of classified documents from the National Archives in Washington" which to my ears clearly implies removal and destruction of the documents themselves, as opposed to the radically different breach of mishandling copies of classified documents. Presenting the notable controversy and speculation in the body of the article is appropriate, but I think it a pretty serious Wikipedia violation to implicitly present the unsupported speculative case as fact in the intro. Hopefully my edit (I forgot to log in when I did it) to the intro informs the reader clearly on both issues and satisfies everyone. Alsee 16:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I feel that mere speculation is given too much importance in the into (EX:"notable controversy and speculation that he might have removed or destroyed originals of other unknown documents"). The DOJ has made it's position VERY clear -- they stand by their investigation in that there is absolutely no proof that originals were destroyed or removed. If Wiki begins to give credence to every conspiracy theorist in the main body of an entry, they become no better than a blog. User:justmyopinion 3:03 January 29 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.22.91 ( talk) 07:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Some consideration should be lent toward the scope of this article.
If questions regarding the timing of the publicity of the investigation are valid, then it is also valid to point out opposition to the contemptable attempt to glaze over the deed itself.
We agree this is a legal matter, subject to legal evaluation, which is still in progress. I am not sure if your reference to contemptible applies to me, to the action, Sandy Berger or what? How can you possibly say that something which is under investigation has property X? Actions occur in contexts, I think you agree, and you have not considered the context. CSTAR 19:00, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"contemptible" applies to 'attempt[s] to glaze over the deed itself'. Not to individuals discussing the matter here.
We all know why a person answers questions about A with questions about B. From what I have heard of Berger's admissions, Berger broke the law. I do not believe Berger is an 'evil spy'. I do not doubt that the timing was 'politically motivated'. I do not see the latter as an answer to questions about the former.
This is indeed a legal matter. Berger admitted to actions that are against the law. That is absolutely true. Whether the man is convicted or punished for his crime is another matter which I've not raised in the article.
OK there seems to be a lot of discussion ;) trying to settle on some satisfactory account of events. I'll be be optimistic and see if there is some possibility of dialogue.
Previous editor argues: There is no reason to remove factual information from article
Anyway I would like to encourage reasonable dialogue on this, even though we may be miles apart on some of the issues. CSTAR 18:58, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"Some suggested that Berger's removal of the documents constituted theft and moreover had serious national security implications. Also, some have voiced suspicion about the timing of the leak of the investigation, suggesting it might have been intended to distract attention from the release of the 9/11 Commission report later that week and the Democratic National Convention the following week."
Can we have quotes on these "suggestions" by "some"? At least links to one article that makes these suggestions and suspicions, rather than the ad hoc and intellectually fallible use of "some"?
-- Xinoph 22:27, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
Article appears completely factual NPOV is uncalled for. If Berger deserves defense for the crime he's already pled guilty to that defense should be added as long as it's also factual. If something in the article is wrong that should be discussed hee and corrected/proven in the article - Honest Abe 13 Aug 05
A change was made because the other statement was simply false. The comittee hearings did not conclude what was stated. Even the link provided did not make this claim, and of course this is all public information. Nancy Kegan Smith stated she wouldn't have known if originals were stolen, but the comittee actually noted that claim was not true since she gave him the originals in her office and they were returned to her subsequently. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.0.131.236 (
talk)
16:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I would like to know what could possibly be the reasons why the classified documents were removed? BridgettK ( talk) 11:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Hillman said: "...the five iterations of the anti-terror "after-action" report at issue in the case were printed out from a hard drive at the Archives and have no notations at all." This is insufficient information because past statements made by administration officials and complicit sycophants often argued minutia. (What the meaning of "is" is, or "that legal rule does not apply because there is no legal ruling authority.") Were the destroyed documents printed out just for Berger's use - or were they pre-existing documents that others had access to? If so, did others add contemporaneous comments to them, or not? How can we be sure? Were the copies, to which Hillman referred, made for the archive from an electronic source file, or were they original copies made for an NSA meeting and handed out to partricipants at that meeting who may have added comments.
Occam's razor says stealing documents by putting them in one's underwear - when a briefcase is available (which he admits to having), but bears the potential of a casual search - indicates a motive of secrecy. Removing multiple copies of the same document in such a manner by the same logic indicates a need to cover up some damaging content that is either in all of them or was added after they were printed out.
Corollary motives could be argued: Berger did not know the memos he stole out of the archives and destroyed were copies, so the destruction may have been an incorrect assumption that their destruction erased their ability to be examined. Or Berger knew they were copies, so stole them in such a covert manner, in order to have access to them for future reference. WmLambert 14:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC-5)
Berger put no documents in his underwear, only in his pockets. Please don't post unbacked partisan rhetoric. JamieMcCarthy 13:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I have blanked the section discussing the media response to Mr. Berger's conviction (in particular, the demotion of his significance to Sen. Kerry's campaign in news articles). The section did not have high-quality references (in fact it had no references) and therefore did not conform to the Biographies of living persons standard. I think it would be extremely useful information to this article if it is true, but only if it cites high-quality sources.
![]() | This page in a nutshell: Articles about living persons must adhere strictly to NPOV and verifiability policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim. |
-- Burzum 06:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The article also needs some explanation of how Berger graduated college in 1967 but was able to be in law school when LBJ ended graduate school deferments (other than medical and dental) with his June 30, 1967 article. Berger was long overweight, so perhaps he had some medical reason, but this is a gigantic omission in an article on a person interested in public policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.238.77 ( talk) 02:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the document stolen in September? The external link from the Washington Post states that the staff was suspicious of Berger after the first incident of missing documents. It is only because of these suspicions that they actually set a trap and caught him in October. It seems biased to neglect to mention this fact. It seems more likely that he got away with at least one theft and only caught later.
The section "Convicted of mishandling classified terror documents" appears to be a copyright infringement. I have reverted the section to the last clean version on 23:26 7 Sep 2006 (UTC) in accordance with WP:CP.
-- Burzum 22:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The section being disputed clearly falls under Fair-Use, even Wiki's tight policy concerning it. To quote: "Brief attributed quotations of copyrighted text used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea may be used under fair use. Text must be used verbatim: any alterations must be clearly marked as an ellipsis ([...]) or insertion ([added text]) or change of emphasis (emphasis added). All copyrighted text must be attributed."
To detail further, the statements of Prosecutor Hillman (whether drawn from The Wall Street Journal or some other source) are, as a US government official operating in his public capacity, in the Public domain. The few brief statements of opinion from the WSJ are used to illustrate a point, clearly attributed, and the original references are hyperlinked. In addition, much of the remaining text is homegrown wiki material.
Depending on other people's input, it may be reasonable to trim some of the quoted sections in the established text. But reversion to a version a year old that includes factual inaccuracies is not a viable solution, and you would be well advised to build up support before making such drastic changes.
Anonymous Wikipedian 04:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the removed text. It doesn't look like copyvio to me, either. Could you be more specific, Burzum? Bryan 05:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- - - I went ahead and removed the paragraph that Burzum found offensive, not merely for a COPYVIO but a more obvious lack of pertenence to the subject. This is the page on Sandy Berger, not anyone else, and for that reason alone it should have been dropped. The other section was restored. -- 71.111.74.251 06:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC) (it's really me; I forgot to log in Anonymous Wikipedian 06:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC))
I'm beginning to feel that if we have a "Controversies" section, we need some sort of matching "Accomplishements" to match it. Otherwise it really feels like we're not adhering to a NPOV guidelines.
This is, quite frankly, something I see a lot of in wiki-biographies of political figures. There's some neutral stuff at the top about age, position held, wife, kids, resume, etc - and then a "Controversies" about every criticism published about them over the course of their public careers. Cataloging every critique doesn't seem fair. But worse, it's not accurate.
In the present article, I have no idea how good Berger was at his job. I strongly suspect he was neither the best or worst. But given how long the man held his job, I think he had to have had something going for him, right?
I'm not adding anything at the moment; too often a talk page is just an ex-postfacto justification for a massive hack on the database. I'm not doing that. I want to see whether other people see the same thing as I do.
-- Anonymous Wikipedian 06:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added a bunch of "cit needed" tags to the article. I will try to find the original sources myself, but if I don't, I will remove the uncited info from the article within two weeks, save anyone else finding the citations. Regards, -- Jayzel 06:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I really think that inclusion of petty criticism of a "leak" over the investigation of Berger should not be included in an bio about Berger himself. First, investigations of government officials are not state secrets. Second, do you honestly think an investigation of a former national security advisor for theft and destruction of documents could possibly be kept silent by all those involved (archive workers, justice department people, FBI, et al). Third, it may have had some worthwhile significance while the investigation was ongoing, but now that berger pleaded guilty it seems like an almost silly complaint. Lastly, again as this is a biographical article about Berger, the info seems inappropriate as it does not directly relate to Berger himself. Its not criticism of or by Berger, but by a third party towards investigators. Regards, -- Jayzel 01:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous Wikipedian 02:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is really skewed against Berger, particularly the section about his presumed guilt or innocence. I don't believe the paragraph beginning with
Mr Berger must have had a reason to steal and destroy the documents.
is really encyclopedic - it corresponds more to a petulant rant. I for one would happily erase it. -- Feralcats 21:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are 2 WSJ opinion pieces being included in the section on the mishandling of classified documents? Gmb92 06:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to section "Convicted of mishandling classified terror documents":
I tried to iron out a few things, but the section is still not really well-structured. There's lots of jumping back and forth in the topic and in the timeline.
-- 193.99.145.162 16:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Once again, we have an editor (76.16.180.16) attempting to insert the "hiding in socks" issue due to his/her discovery of a "new" source (a WaPo story from 4 years ago). This matter has been investigated and it has been discussed (see above paragraphs). Here is (76.16.180.16)'s edit:
"On July 19, 2004, it was revealed that the U.S. Justice Department was investigating Berger for unauthorized removal of classified documents in October 2003 from a National Archives reading room prior to testifying before the 9/11 Commission, by wrapping them around his socks and beneath his pants.[16]"
Here's what the "new" source actually says (italics mine):
“Under debate during the Nov. 23, 2004, meeting was Brachfeld's contention that President Clinton's former national security adviser Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger could have stolen original, uncatalogued, highly classified terrorism documents 14 months earlier by wrapping them around his socks and beneath his pants, as National Archives staff member John Laster reported witnessing."
Obviously, the Justice Dept was not was investigating Berger for unauthorized removal of classified documents in October 2003 from a National Archives reading room prior to testifying before the 9/11 Commission, by wrapping them around his socks and beneath his pants.
The edit misrepresents what the source says. It is a violation of WP:BLP. If reintroduced, I will take it to the BLP noticeboard. Cronos1 ( talk) 01:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
References
This article seems to concentrate on a tiny portion of the history of Sandy Berger's career in public life, at some risk to the public record.
It would be good to pay attention to Berger's role in chasing al Quaeda and Osama bin Laden. He was the guy on the National Security staff who was assigned to "get" bin Laden -- there is no mention of that role at all.
Importantly, there is also no mention of his role in passing the torch of the get-bin-Laden effort to the Bush administration, who refused to take it.
Berger's distinguished career in making good things happen, and in trying to prevent further violence, is completely absent from the article.
See Charlie Rose Show archives, [here] http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2004/06/03/2/a-conversation-with-guest-host-fareed-zakaria-chuck-hagel-and-sandy-berger-about-the-resignation-of-george-tenet
Here's an old Washington Post story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/keyplayers/berger070797.htm
Here's a column in the NY Times with perspective: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9500E6DF133CF930A35752C1A9649C8B63 And more: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E0D7103DF933A15750C0A9679C8B63
Edarrell ( talk) 18:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the unsourced assertion of the existence of a speculative allegation that Berger "may have" destroyed something as a BLP violation. This accusation was tagged as unsourced over a month ago. Wowest ( talk) 13:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
The document "Sandy Berger's Theft of Classified Documents: Unanswered Questions" (Staff Report, US House of Representatives, 110th Congress) makes it clear that he lied and schemed repeatedly in an effort to cover up his theft of classified National Archives documents. While I understand the desire to appear "neutral" in these Wiki biographies, there is no neutrality in excluding unsavory facts about the character of the biographee. As for the argument that such references to character are somehow irrelevant, I'm hard-pressed to think of something more important to know about a high government official than the fact that he lied about stealing national security secrets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.59.111 ( talk) 21:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Sandy Berger. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:04, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Sandy Berger. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:17, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
The article doesn't talk about why SB removed documents. Is there a usable source that talks about this? Kdammers ( talk) 01:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)