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The "democide" figure is bullshit. No reputable human rights group or foreign news agency ever described the Sandinista government as killing thousands of their own citizens. Some crank writing a book and making figures up is not admissable. The Permanent Commission on Human Rights was a US-funded propaganda outlet in Nicaragua that, contrary to every other organization on Earth, found more human rights violations with the FSLN than with the Contras.
The Support of Foreign Fighters section is bullshit, too. The ICJ determined that. In addition, it's pretty amusing that the State Department of the nation that the ICJ determined was waging a war of aggression against Nicaragua gets its own little section throw out accusations and slanders based on US State Department accusations. The part about Cuba is completely redundant as well. I'm heavily editing these sections. MarkB2 01:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am completely neutral on the Sandinistas and on the debate at hand. However I do have to point out that as a reader trying to learn more about the Sandinistas I can say that the article does have a pro-Sandinista lean at times. I would advise everyone debating here to please keep this in mind...it could lead some to questioning figures and claims that are totally legit. On the other side, it can cause some to totally discount the claims being made. Tbkflav 22:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
We're all pro-sandinist here, because we do no think that torture, oppression and social inequality are the final goals of the human race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.196.65.91 ( talk) 01:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Completely unsourced and pov. Objectiosn to removal? Ultramarine 16:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Webster's dictionary [2], the American Heritage dictionary [3], and dictionary.com [4] , democide is not an established word in the english language. Its use in this article must be altered to an accepted word from the English lexicon. Using Neologisms certainly violates Wikipedia's Avoid Neologisms guideline. I have included the relevant sections of the guideline:
Neologism as defined from Wikipedia's Avoid Neologisms
Neologisms are words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities.
Why Wikipedia prohibits using neologisms
Generally speaking, neologisms should be avoided in articles because they may not be well understood, may not be clearly definable, and may even have different meanings to different people. Determining which meaning is the true meaning is original research—we don't do that here at Wikipedia. [5]
Abe Froman 15:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Suggestion to delete democide section as this term is a neologism see discussion. Pexise 17:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Once Abe's bad faith Afd on democide goes down in flames, the argument that "democide" is a violation of WP:NEO will have as much creditability as the AFD did. Ultramarine is absolutely right that Rummel's work is scholarly, well cited and he is a notable. The term, along with his work is used in multiple articles on Wikipedia. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This is tendentious arguing, Pexise. We both know what you would be saying if this source was speaking from your POV. You're not going to succeed in getting impeccably academically referenced work like this removed from the article, period. I can agree to not giving it its own section, but the material will stay. - Merzbow 18:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, it would seem that based on the user input from the Afd the idea that Democide is a neologism and unsuitable for use in a wikipedia article is getting kicked in its nuts quite nicely. Perhaps the result of the Afd will settle this debate. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 00:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Completely unsourced and pov. Objectiosn to removal? Ultramarine 16:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Ultramarine - your academic teaches as a US military and intelligence school. And Notmyrealname is right, this discussion is not about the News World Publications article. We have already had the discussion about the News World Publications article and we agreed that you would try and find the original source. I assume that you have never been able to find it. Pexise 20:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You are relentless, Ultramarine. It's an official UN report. But we have to balance out that report, don't we. I'm sure you have some old press releases from Eliott Abrams calling the FSLN despots you could use, Ultramarine. And Oliver North's testimony is some good evidence that's relevant. MarkB2 Chat 21:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Your claims are incorrect. Publishing without evidence = not accepting prior censorship. Receiving US funding = for translation and not given to the organization itself. Membership to opposition parties = unclear what you mean. Regarding your quote "Hernandez told Preston: "Our institution doesn't receive a cent from PRODEMCA or Endowment." When he made that assertion recently to envío, we asked about the Endowment's funding of the international distribution of the publications. He responded: "If you make 100 photocopies of our bulletin and distribute them to friends, does that make us dependent on you?" Meaning that if other recieve money for copying or translating your bulletin, this does not mean that you are have been influenced. Ultramarine 17:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give a proper reference (book and page number) about the Carlos Fonseca/NORAD accusation? I can't seem to find it in the sources listed (and as cited above, Andrew seems to think the most notable Sandinista action against a US target was the attempted kidnapping of an ambassador). (I originally posted this at the end of a previous discussion, but it was apparently lost in the hullabaloo). Notmyrealname 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
We should have a separate section on this election, there is much to discuss. Thoughts? Ultramarine 17:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I edited the section that claimed the FDN was comprised largely of ex-Guardia and wealthy landowners because their is nothing to substantiate this, and that in fact most of the footsoldiers of the FDN were peasants. At their peak the Guardia had no more than 6,000 members. Thousands were killed by the FSLN, many others fled, and a few stayed to lead the counter-revolutionary struggle. The Milpistas were the regular soldiers that did the fighting and the dying. Jpineda84 ( talk) 00:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
the FDN was a military wing, it did not run for office in the 84 elections. That the FDN abdictated from the elections is impossible since they were never running! UNO was the leading party that was running against the FSLN and there is no proof that they did not make the decision to quit solely on the advice of Washington. Jpineda84 ( talk) 02:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm really new to wikipedia so I really don't know how to address people directly, I guess this is the best I can do for now. My main concern is the neglection of UNO from the 1984 election section. Arturo Cruz was running for UNO and not for any FDN party, which didnt exist. I'm not sure about how we formally settle this argument, there are no references in that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpineda84 ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I revised the old version which stated that "new parties" were created under the Sandinistas that were never allowed under Somoza. This sentence was supported by Leslie E. Anderson and Lawrence C Dodd's "Learning Democracy", pg. 65. Knowing this to be falls, and knowing the Sandistas intense dislike for democracy in principle, I checked out the source, and of course, nothing of this sort is stated. In fact, pg. 64 and pg 65 of the book which begins the chapter on the 1984 elections described the Sandinistas aversion to democracy and the external and internal political pressures that made 1984 possible. This book was written by academics holding doctorates in History and Political Science, I dont understand the accusation of not using a "main stream source" whatever that means Jpineda84 ( talk) 03:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC) On a further note, if you are attacking my source why do you revert it to the previous version which uses the same source, yet completely fabricates the information? clearly if a correct paraphrase of the source is wrong, and incorrect paraphrase is worse Jpineda84 ( talk) 03:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Dennis Gilbert's the Sandinistas: The Party And The Revolution. Blackwell Publishers, 1988, is also used in this entry. Pg 22 of his book can be used to corroborate some of this information. He explains how Humberto Ortega described the revolution as “irreversible” and asserted that the purpose of elections was to “improve revolutionary power, not to raffle who has power”, elections were held to gain international legitimacy, however some parties “existed only on paper”. Sandinista restrictions had deliberately limited their development. Elections were strategic in the long term goals held out in th e"72 hour document" of 1979 --- a lot of it is there, Gilbert's book is often used as authority in this subject.
In Lafeber, Inevitable Revolutions, 2nd ed. (a man who is a Sandinistophile)also states on pg 308 that the Sandinistas gave into the Contadora groups demands for an election due to "growing religious, economic and military pressures" and to maintain the political initiative on the United States. Nothing about wanting new parties, nothing and wanting plurality. He does mention of p 309 about using "strong arm tactics to keep the opposition as weak as possible". This book is also an authority in the field. Jpineda84 ( talk) 03:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | As with politics before it, the 1984 election drew upon the democratic qualities of ideology as formulated by Downs; provided a forum for all parties; and encouraged contestation and participation as formulated by Dahl. It was itself an excercise in dissent within the growing political space offered under the new regime. It offered a chance to exchange information and express alternative opinions about the state of the nation. | ” |
“ | Others sharply disagreed. Western European delegations observed and approved the election process. Fifteen U.S. experts making up the Latin American Studies Association Observer Delegation reached a unanimous agreement that (in the words of one leader), "the election was fair, clean, and competitive, and that the Reagan Administration and the U.S. mass media ... had performed in a reprehensible manner" in judging the elections" | ” |
- There is no dispute on the fact that their were elections and that parties competed. The argument is over the impetus of such an election, which did not come from a sincere will for democracy on behalf of the Sandinistas. Furthermore, political parties existed and competed under Somoza, they were not new developments, as was implied in the original post.
-What was new was the success of internal and external forces in pressuring the Nicaraguan regime to hold an actual election. This is argued in Dodds.
- Lefarber has no evidence that the US "placed a mock candidate" and thus does not argue it anywhere in his book and is not proven in your quote. In fact, Arturo Cruz had plans of his own and had many disagreements with the US, he was politically active, and was a Sandinista, way before AMeican intervention, these FACTS are demonstrated in any basic history of the revolution, including Inevitable Revolutions. Jpineda84 ( talk) 21:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
"growing political sphere" does not equate to new parties Jpineda84 ( talk) 01:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to TDC we now have a peer-reviewed article documenting serious human right violtions both during and after the Sandinistas were in power. [25] I will start incorporating it. Ultramarine 18:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The references of the article include many interviews with Lino Hernández head of the CPDH. e.g. "9. Lino Hernandez, director, Comité Permanente de Derechos Humanos, interview with author, Managua, Nicaragua, June 4, 1999. ", there are many others. Pexise 20:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not going to waste my time reading a clearly unreliable and biased article in order to ascertain what percentage or to what degree the article uses the CPDH, you can change it to 'the article uses interviews...' Pexise 20:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be lost on a few of the editors here that citing a lot of academics from the country that was waging war on the Sandinistas might not be the best way to source the article. I'll be sure to go on over to the East Timor page and rewrite the history of their genocide with some useful Indonesian sources. MarkB2 Chat 12:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It is relevant and important to discuss the PCHR - the subject of the section is the politicization of human rights which heavily involves the PCHR. They are also widely discussed in human rights literature. My objection to the CIIR quote was that it seemed too long and not particularly relevant. I'll make some changes. Pexise 13:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This sole source for this section is a statement by Vernon Walters, the US Ambassador to the UN, directed at the UN Security Council in 1986. Considering the fact that the US was at war with Nicaragua at the time, this statement doesn't really count as a WP:RS. This section should be deleted until real sources are provided. Notmyrealname 20:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Um, no propaganda would be best I think we would all agree. A couple of good sources about US propaganda in Latin America may be NACLA [26] and the Council on Hemispheric Affairs [27]. For example look at this article about master propagandist Otto Reich (note the section about the Office of Public Diplomacy 'Master of Diplomacy: OPD 1983-86' [28] also have a look at this site about the Office of Public Diplomacy: [29] Pexise 22:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
There's even PDFs of the original declassified documents: [31] [32] might be worth looking for human rights stuff in them. there's certainly mention of human rights in the first document. Pexise 23:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
OK - will change it - might also be worth having a separate section about US propaganda discussing PRODEMCA, the Office of Public Diplomacy etc. Pexise 11:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It would be good to start this new section. I have mentioned some sources in the previous discussion, could also be linked to Wikipedia pages on National Endowment for Democracy, Prodemca, The Office of Public Diplomacy, Otto Reich, Oliver North etc. Pexise 11:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is all based on a biased point of view. Is it really proper to have section on the politicization on human rights? Isn't the entire Sandinista-US relationship and history highly politicized? Every issue is politicized, there's no need to qualify and justify human rights abuses because they have been 'politicized'. Any so called achievement from the Sandinista rule is glorified from the left whether it is a real achievement or not. This is an equivalent of having a sections called "the politicization of Sandinistas social achievements". It simply is not useful information and is fundamentally a POV.
This has got to be one of the most POV sections of the article. Not only does editorialize, it goes out of the way to suggest that the Sandinistas are somehow blameless.
"The issue of human rights during the 1980s in Nicaragua should be treated with great care. It is impossible to deal with the issue without taking account of the circumstances and context in which events took place. It is very important to consider that a counter-revolutionary war was being fought against the government in this period (by the US-backed Contras) and that part of the government response to the situation of conflict was to enact a state of emergency, which included the derogation of certain human rights."
This entire article has a left wing slant where it goes on and on about the horrors of the Samazo dictatorship, but downplays the human rights violations committed by the Sandinistas. I am definatly editing this out. 216.201.33.20 05:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I am completely neutral on the Sandinistas, their legacy, and the US Involvement. I really don't know anything about it. However, this section in particlar does have a definitive pro-Sandinista lean. This is an encyclopedia...whose purpose is to educate. The opening paragraph of this section is almost an apology for bringing up the potential human rights abuses. This is not the way an article or section should open. While I will not remove the passage, I strongly recommend someone remove the opening sentence advising "great care". As I highlighted earlier...no one need apologize for documenting an accusation. There isn't a similar passage in the earlier reference to CIA involvement in Drug Smuggling...leads me to think that the passage is either intended to placate people who disagree that there were human rights abuses, or that it it was intended to discredit the entire section by saying "Be Careful...what follows may be Bullshit". That kind of prefacing should be happening on the talk page. Just something to be aware of. Tbkflav 22:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Also...sorry I forgot... Additionally - to Smokey the Cat...your above claim that the Sandinistas were a "Good Gov't" is pure opinion and quite clearly indicates the POV of this section. Where in any encyclopedia does a government's perceived benevolence or malevolence become relevant to a documentation on it's existance? You can document the accusation of such...the fact that the opinion exists...but to come out and cleanly advocate that they were "good" and to "get used to it" is pure crap when talking about the encyclopedic value of the section.
Then, to Pexise...what the F does Bush have to do with an article on potential Sandinista human rights abuses? Answer: Not one d@mn thing. Why are you using up bandwith on Bush here on a talk page for Sandinistas??? I like Bush about as much as I like a stinky diaper...but even bringing him up is like me bringing up the relative effectiveness of my God Damn detergent on a talk page for an article on the LA Dodgers. It has no friggin bearing. Please do not misconstrue as a personal attack...you clearly feel very strongly about good ole W and I applaud you for it...but I don't see why its being discussed here. Tbkflav 23:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
LOL! Gotcha Pexise...great minds think alike. I don’t consider the day complete until I wind someone up one way or another. Makes this whole thing a bit more fun, don't you think? Anyway - First off...you're right about the talk page. Smokey the Cat can share his/her opinion all she/he wants, even if it sucks and has absolutely no merit in an academically honest medium. That is what the talk page is for after all, right? Second: While I completely understand and support the spirit of what you're trying to accomplish with the warning, I ultimately still disagree that it should be there, and I'll tell ya why. The accusation of human rights abuses, whether true or not, does exist. Not only does it exist, but the accusation was made by many...some more influential than others. Now...it very well could be that it's all crap, and it's very important to note that in the article. That's not the argument here. My point is that instead of a disclaimer, that counterpoints or rebuttals be made in the passage itself. This allows the reader to review the facts presented along with the claim and the corresponding rebuttal FIRST, and then draw their own conclusion. A warning or disclaimer circumvents that. It immediately calls into question the legitamacy of the claim, and can cause the reader to disregard the facts presented since the reader may be under the assumption that the material is faulty and not to be believed. Secondly, using this warning could lead some to accuse bias, since the warning was not consistently used for all controversies in the article. Case in point is the CIA/Drug Dealing scenario. Many believe this is true, but a great deal think its crap, just as some think the Sandinista rights abuses are crap. The warning advising "great care" seems to be missing here. Why would it only be present in a section on rights abuses when the same scenario exists for the CIA? Some would draw a conclusion of bias. To illustrate, the following is an example of the alternative: "The Sandinistas have been accused by many of human rights abuses during their time in power (source). While many have made this claim, others have advanced the idea that the abuses were non-existant/minimal, and that the reports of such abuses were in fact a hoax created for propaganda value (source). The legitamacy and extent of Sandinista rights abuse is still subject to much debate, but abuse is claimed nonetheless." I think that is much more effective in questioning the abuse claims than a disclaimer...but I've been known to have been wrong before (as my brilliant plan to drink hot coffee through a straw would indicate). Later everyone, and go CU.
Tbkflav
08:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Well said and well taken...but I still think its not very "encyclopediaesque" to present a disclaimer and I maintain the opinion that the section's opening could be improved upon. The wording isn't so unacceptable to me that I feel I have to change it...but if someone does re-write the section so that the gist of the warning was woven into the content (and voiding the need for the warning)I would be in support of their effort. It does set an interesting precedent though. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess...although I will say the experience has broadened my knowledge base on the topic.
Beware though... Using the same logic, its conceivable that (albeit an extreme case) that an editor that happens to be a Neo Nazi or other type of holocaust denier could end up inserting a similar warning at the beginning of an article on the holocaust. While most people would be outraged, they would realize that the warning is crap and a mind game (please don't misunderstand here...I'm not saying that your warning is crap or a mind game...just the one in the example!!) , it would make the editors and Neo-Nazis feel good that they could challenge the existence of the holocaust via attacking the legitimacy of the evidence. They would justify it by saying all the holocaust sources/backup are a bunch of "lies" and propaganda created by the Jews, and that billions of dollars have been spent to perpetuate the "myth" by a conspiracy of collaborating Communists, Jews, and the media all to discredit National Socialism. If we're academically honest, we couldn't challenge them on the validity of the warning because of it's existence under similar conditions in this article. If anyone did challenge, they would claim bias and a double standard, which would just make them feel even better. The thought of a smug faced bigot sitting at a computer feeling justified makes me sick. If it wasn't so outrageous, I'd almost be tempted to test my hypothesis to see the reaction...however I'm just not sick enough in the head to do it.
Probably the last time I'll comment on this. I'd love to continue the discussion, but I'm in Chicago for the weekend and theres a lot of beer to be drank, and a lot of drunk chicks around. Drunk chicks dig me!!! Ciao! Tbkflav 00:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
True dat Tbkflav 16:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think its fair, then, to make a "politicization of Contra human rights abuses", and if not, then this section should be scrappred. Jpineda84 ( talk) 17:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Please explain this unexplained deletion of sourced material. [37]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by user Ultramarine ( talk • contribs) Revision as of 09:07, 23 July 2007.
Also please explain this deletion of sourced material. [39] Objections to restoring? Ultramarine 15:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I took the section out again. It contradicts the first paragraph of this section making it nonsense. SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 18:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
The Human Rights section on this article is completly pro-communist propoganda, look at the first line "The issue of human rights during the 1980s in Nicaragua should be treated with great care. It is impossible to deal with the issue without taking account of the circumstances and context in which events took place. It is very important to consider that a counter-revolutionary war was being fought against the government in this period (by the US-backed Contras). It is also very important to note that the human rights issue became politicized at this time (see section below on the Politicization of human rights and also articles on The Office of Public Diplomacy and Prodemca). Note that this applies to both sides."
This is a personal commentary from a POV perspective, not a neutral fact or statement, if were going to get subjective how about telling people whose family members were disapeared, murdered, or tortured by the Sandinistas that this is an issue that should be treated with great care. It is neither impossible nor necessary to look at the so called "context" wikipedia is about facts not personal points of view on the facts. This paragraph alone is gone. 216.255.40.172 02:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
First off I don't take orders from you, secondly your consensus doesn't mean anything when it violates wiki standards and rules, just because propoganda was used at that time does not allow for this sort of POV Commentary on the issue, wikipedias job is to report the facts not tell people how to interpet them, if you are concerned about propoganda then state that the Reagan Administration made charges, and the Sandinistas denied them, instead of violating wiki standards.
That entire paragraph is the topic for discussion, and is entirely inapropriate, as is most of this article. This entire article needs to be re-worked to remove the POV slant, by the editors that work on it to simply report claims, facts, and statements not spin them their way or comment on them.
Even as somebody who is no expert on this subject, I could tell within five seconds that this article is not even remotely credible, and it is articles like this that are the reason schools are now banning wikipedia as resource.
Include facts, claims, and statements, from both sides, but this entire article as it currently stands is b.s. along with that paragraph, and it violates every wiki standard even if it does have a consensus. 216.255.40.172 02:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The reason its POV is because it is a commentary on the subject of the politicaztion of human rights, not a recording of the facts that one party says human rights were politicized. Its an injection of an opinion or belief by wikipedias editors, not a claim made by any of the parties relevant to the article, which is inapropriate.
It tells people that this issue should be treated with great care, and that it is politicized, ect . . . which is in and of itself a point of view. My charge is that wikis editors have either intentionally or inadvertently injected their own point of view. The fact is they also state human rights issues were used by both sides for human rights abuses, weather or not that is true it is a stated opinion, and as it is not presented as the claim of one group that was there it is highly POV.
A more approrpraite approach to this issue would be to say that the Reagan Administration made charges of human rights violations against the Sandinistas, and the Sandinistas denied the charges claiming the Reagan Administration was using it for political reasons. That is NPOV, while at the same time keeping the claims, but the fact is wikipedias editors have no buisness interjecting their opinion about weather or not human rights issues were politicized, ect . . . into an article, or telling people how to interpret claims made by either side. 216.255.40.172 20:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Right now I am not proposing re-writing the section, I am proposing that this paragraph which is really irelevant, and is POV, should be deleted. It is not necessary either, and has nothing to do with the article anyway and is just someones stated point of view.
And yes I do know thens of thousands of people lost their lives because of the Nicaraguan civil war. 216.255.40.172 18:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Uh, and that is relevanthow? No one is denying that tens of thousands of people died irrespective of what you call it.
At any rate The Contras were Nicaraguan citizens who opposed the Sandinistas, not foreign mercenaries, and the Sandinistas were backed by the U.S.S.R. through Cuba. Just because the Contra's were counter revolutionaries doesn't mean that it wasn't a civil war. Other people list it as a Civil War, http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDnicaragua.htm and http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Nicaragua-Inside-Sandinistas/dp/1560007613
At any rate what does that have to do with the paragraph that I nominated for deletion, and again it doesn't matter that it was inserted with a consensus if it clearly violates wiki standards on NPOV and Soap Box, and it does. 216.255.40.172 00:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Because it is a Point of View, it is a commentary, not a FACT, and as you stated Wikipedia deals with Facts, and using wikipedia to spread a commentary is using it as a soapbox.
Just because no one point of view is being privileged, and it states that it applies to both sides does not excuse the fact that it is in itself a point of view.
It expresses a point of view about human rights being politicized, and then expresses a point of view about what context the issue should be viewed in, and then expresses that this point of view should be on both sides. This is inparopriate, wikipedia is an encylopedia not a blog, and this sort of commentary doesn't belong.
As for it being a Civil War, the definition of civil war is one in which the citizens of a country engage in war against one another, which would describe Nicaragua, as both the Contras and the Sandinistas were Nicaraguan citizens. 216.255.40.172 18:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The Contras operating out of Honduras and Costa Rica were still Nicaraguan citizens, only in exile.
As for modifying, the problem is not one that can be modified, the entire paragraph which I copied here is a pov commentary by wikipedia's editors which has to be deleted to bring this article into line with wiki standards.
As for cutting out partisan sources, I see no reason to exclude or single out the Heritage Foundation, and I have yet to hear what sources you consider to be non-partisan. 216.255.11.132 02:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue is not about weather or not human rights abuses were politicized, the issue is about what people claim concerning them. IT would be best if you stated NGO CIIR claims the issue of human rights was politicized.
As for the Heritage Foundation there is no rule that sources have to be non-partisan, as for human rights organizations they are just as partisan as anything else. The fact is there is no legitimate reason to censor either Heritage or TIME, just because one was involved in the Reagan Administration, and the other has no "experience."
The fact is that this article is about the Sandinistas, and the Heritage Foundation has just as much to say about the Sandinistas Human Rights record as any other group, in fact that was one of the reasons they were influential in the Reagan Administration, they were voicing their opinion on the Human Rights record of the Sandinistas.
I don't understand why Time Magazine should not be included. Wikipedia generally goes with Mainstream sources, experience not withstanding. Time Magazine is just as legitimate as any other source, and in some cases moreso. They should stay in. 216.255.11.132 ( talk) 10:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the following version would be a marked improvement:
Allegations of human rights violations committed by the Sandinistas
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished."[34] The Commission also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [35]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito Indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, "disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property.[36]
In its 1991 annual report the same source stated that "In September 1990, the Commission was informed of the discovery of common graves in Nicaragua, especially in areas where fighting had occurred. The information was provided by the Nicaraguan Pro Human Rights Association, which had received its first complaint in June 1990. By December 1991, that Association had received reports of 60 common graves and had investigated 15 of them. While most of the graves seem to be the result of summary executions by members of the Sandinista People's Army or the State Security, some contain the bodies of individuals executed by the Nicaraguan Resistance."[6]
In a 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights there are details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed in 1984 by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contianed six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, the report does not state that these executions were part of government policy.[7]
Politicization of human rights
The issue of human rights also became highly politicised at this time as human rights is claimed to be a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter stated in 1985 that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration ... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities."[40]
Human Rights Watch also stated in its 1989 report on Nicaragua that: "Under the Reagan administration, U.S. policy toward Nicaragua's Sandinista government was marked by constant hostility. This hostility yielded, among other things, an inordinate amount of publicity about human rights issues. Almost invariably, U.S. pronouncements on human rights exaggerated and distorted the real human rights violations of the Sandinista regime, and exculpated those of the U.S.-supported insurgents, known as the contras."[42]
In 1987 a report was published by the UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as Progressio). The report, "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua",[43] discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas ... have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war." The CIIR report refers to estimates made by the NGO Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300".
According to the CIIR report, Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused.
Pexise ( talk) 20:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
While I agree that what you presented is an improvement, the primary problem with all the quotes you provided is that while they may be from technically non-partisan sources, they are all one sided, and unanimous in their condemnation of the Reagan Administration. I can not believe there were no human rights groups that had anything favorable to say concerning the Reagan's human rights foreign policy, and to include only one side still present serious POV problems, although not nearly as serious as it was before.
As a counter I recomend this lecture by Jeane Kirkpatrick, who was Ronald Reagan's U.N. Ambassador and the chief architect of his dealings in Latin America, http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human%20Rights%20Documents/Kirkpatrick_HRPolicy.html
I will state though that I am un-comfortable giving Human Rights groups an exclusive monopoly on this though, and I think other sources need to be found as well.
216.255.11.132 ( talk) 09:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find any reference to the Sandinistas in the source you quoted. Shall we agree to replace the current version with what I've presented here, and that you will add positive comments about the Reagan administration's Human Rights policy in Nicaragua when you find them (though obviously from an independent source)? Pexise ( talk) 13:48, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Haven't been on for a while, sorry about leaving the discussion up in the air. Just a brief comment, NPOV means by the editor, biased sources can and may be included provided they are countered by equaly biased sources.
Including only "Human Rights" groups is extremely POV, because it only allows for the bias of that group, it ignores the fact that human rights groups were for instance directly assisting the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, and the Frente in El Salvador, it should be remembered that during the cold war that human rights groups could mean anything you wanted them to be.
Giving a group that slaps the label human rights on themselves a monopoly to the extent that mainstream media sources such as Time Magazine are supressed, is both POV and censorship and not appropriate.
As for the Heritage Foundation that can be arued either way, but above all their is no cause under any circumstances to censor or suppress the mainstream media, in the name of only including Human Rights groups. Wikipedia specifically encourages use of mainstream media sources that are widely available to the general public, such as TIME Magazine. 216.255.11.132 ( talk) 16:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
responding to Ultramarine's assertion that we should use the Demokratizatsiya article - it is hardly an appropriate source, being "The Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization is an international interdisciplinary quarterly journal devoted to changes in the late Soviet Union and post-Soviet states, issued by Heldref Publications in Washington, DC. It covers the processes in these countries since 1985" - not at all specialist in Latin America or Human Rights and the article in question also uses questionable sources including US State Department documents and the questionable human rights organisation used in the Time magazine article. Pexise ( talk) 19:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it is appropriate that we discuss the appropriate sources for this section here, in the interests of improving a convoluted section, which at the moment seems to have a somewhat 'anything goes' approach.
I propose that, with the quality of the section in mind, we try to use human rights sources that are impartial, not linked to either side in the conflict and expert. For this reason, I propose the use of the IACHR and the international human rights organisations. I propose that we discount sources that are clearly partialised or obviously linked to propaganda, or that are not expert or specialised in this area.
It may be worth creating a new section in the article documenting propaganda where propaganda linked sources can be presented - this is an idea I had proposed previously - the section could follow the human rights section and be titled something like: "US propaganda during the Sandanista government". That would be a good place for sources such as the Heritage Foundation. This would be a way to include all of the current sources, if that's what we really want to do.
Finally, regarding the CIIR - they are in impartial organisation which is not linked in any way to the Sandinistas, the Contras or the US government, and they have written an extensive, well documented, impartial report - I think this makes them an entirely appropriate source. Pexise ( talk) 02:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
An alternative version of the human rights section has been proposed, please comment if you think it is an improvement.
This is the alternative proposal:
Re: Pexise's question:
Re: Ultramarine's question:
Well, then -- if Ultramarine agrees with me that there is a vast disparity in favor of the Contras then we are clearly in agreement. I'm happy to hear that. Stone put to sky ( talk) 19:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished." [3] The IACHR also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [4]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito Indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, " disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property. [5]
In its 1991 annual report the Inter-American Commission stated that "In September 1990, the Commission was informed of the discovery of common graves in Nicaragua, especially in areas where fighting had occurred. The information was provided by the Nicaraguan Pro Human Rights Association, which had received its first complaint in June 1990. By December 1991, that Association had received reports of 60 common graves and had investigated 15 of them. While most of the graves seem to be the result of summary executions by members of the Sandinista People's Army or the State Security, some contain the bodies of individuals executed by the Nicaraguan Resistance." [40]
The 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights contains details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed in 1984 by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contained six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, the report does not state that these executions were part of government policy. [41]
The issue of human rights also became highly politicised at this time as human rights is claimed to be a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter stated in 1985 that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities." [6]
Human Rights Watch also stated in its 1989 report on Nicaragua that: "Under the Reagan administration, U.S. policy toward Nicaragua's Sandinista government was marked by constant hostility. This hostility yielded, among other things, an inordinate amount of publicity about human rights issues. Almost invariably, U.S. pronouncements on human rights exaggerated and distorted the real human rights violations of the Sandinista regime, and exculpated those of the U.S.-supported insurgents, known as the contras." [7]
In 1987 a report was published by the UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as "Progressio"). The report, "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua", [8] discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas ... have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war." The CIIR report refers to estimates made by the NGO Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300".
According to the CIIR report, Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused.
The sources quoted were: Time Magazine, the Heritage Foundation, and an obscure book expounding on the concept of "Democide". In and of themselves, any source is generally reliable. In this case, however, each makes extraordinary claims that are unsubstantiated by any well-regarded academic or official sources, nor are they widely substantiated by other respected observers. Thus, they have been culled until such time as corroborating sources can be provided to back up their claims. Stone put to sky ( talk) 11:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
"Time" magazine is not a "well-known newspaper". Further, the points in question make "extraordinary claims" that are clearly contrary to established academic consensus. Unless you can find a well-respected academic source that backs their claims up then it is inadmissible as a source.
The "Heritage Foundation" is a right-wing political activist group; again, if the claim it were making were in-and-of-itself uncontroversial then the citation would stand. The claims made, however, are not backed up by any academic sources.
The "Democide" book is, certainly, a scholarly work. It does not deal with the Sandinistas in particular; it mentions the Nicaraguan revolution only as one conflict among many, and only as a supplement to its main thesis. The figures it cites, therefore, are a novel interpretation that are neither backed up nor verified by any other organizations or academic sources. UOnce again: if the claims made are truly scholarly citations, then it will be easy for you to find other academics that back up the accusations made.
As things stand, you have attempted to force the inclusion of three extraordinary claims based on three different, suspicious sources without any supporting evidence to back these claims up. This is the essence of Wikipedia:Verifiability: if one is making extraordinary claims then solid, reliable sources must be provided.
On this basis, therefore, the material will remain deleted until you come up with reliable corroborating sources. 06:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
We have already had an RfC treating these subjects, above. The arguments you are putting forth here have already been repeatedly dealt with above, over the course of some six months. In the past, many editors here have, in the interest of avoiding an edit-war, acceded to the inclusion of the material. Yet in each case this was only an accession avoid an edit war -- in all cases where the material has been questioned there has been no effort on your own part to attempt to reach consensus or portray an accurate version of the prevailing academic and international consensus regarding the points in question.
The two sections above were floated as an RfC. To anyone who is sincerely interested in writing an encyclopedic, NPOV article it is clear that these two sections are a vast improvement over the clearly propagandistic and narrowly pro-Reagan, pro-U.S.A. version that you are now arguing for. It is unfortunate that you yourself are unable to acknowledge the clear bias and baselessness of the version you prefer. Even so, the community here has -- over the course of nearly a year now -- spoken repeatedly:
The sources you are arguing for are not substantial enough to support the claims you are making. If Time magazine said something in 1983 that, as of today, virtually all HRO's, international observers, and academics dispute then it is not up to Wikipedia to include the source but, instead, up to you to find a recent, alternate and more reliable proponent. The same clearly goes for any quotes from a 1983 Heritage Foundation report -- and would also follow for any such claims by the CCCP, Granma, the New York Times, or whatever. Wikipedia makes it quite clear that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources", and the sources you have provided are clearly inadequate to the arguments you are making.
Now, the Democide book is, in and of itself, a useful source. Unfortunately it, too, is making extraordinary and poorly-sourced claims about Sandinista rule. Further, it undertakes no detailed analysis of the period under Sandinista rule, and what analysis is undertaken is only in the context of a book that tries to deal with over 100 years of historical analysis. While "a third" of its sources may have come from reliable HROs, the unfortunate truth is that many of its sources are considered quite questionable by Wikipedia standards and, among mainstream academics, the book has entirely failed to find traction or support.
So, once again: extraordinary claims require extraordinary support. Stone put to sky ( talk) 06:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It is not up to me to provide sources for my challenges here, on the discussion page. It is, however, required for you to show us more and better sources for these claims.
Once again: one 1983 article from a non-academic, non-peer-reviewed, partisan source is not enough to support an extraordinary claim that disputes all modern, academic and formal scholarship on the issue in question.
Once again: i don't need to show proof that i am right on this -- you must show us the additional, reliable, recent sources that support your claims.
Now, regarding the Democide book, there is a lot of controversy surrounding Rummel's definitions and methodology. He tries to keep battle deaths, capital punishment, and military "collateral non-com deaths" outside his definition of "democide"; however, many of the instances he includes in his statistics are alleged to fall under these various categories, while other statistics which he does not include (when dealing with democracies) have been alleged to be circumstances which fall outside these allowances. There is considerable academic controversy about this approach and about whether or not Rummel is, in fact, stacking the analytical deck by using a definition that allows him to eliminate unfortunate challenged to his thesis by manipulating the definitions and interpretations of different data sets. Stone put to sky ( talk) 07:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Simply ignoring my points will not work here, Ultramarine. I have already explained to you repeatedly why the sources you have provided are questionable and fail Wikipedia guidelines. You now seem to believe that simply by ignoring their deficiencies and declaring them as reliable sources you can force their inclusion on the page. Things don't work that way here, though. The relevant wikipedia guidelines have already been quoted for you. After a cursory glance i see at least five different editors here that have made similar or the same criticisms and comments on the material in question. If you cannot bring it into line with wikipedia standards and guidelines then i am afraid that we will be forced to exclude it from the page. Stone put to sky ( talk) 08:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have already answered all of your claims above. The sources you have provided are from 1983 and contradicted by more recent, authoritative, neutral, and internationally accepted sources. The Democide book is considered only a preliminary, non-authortitative estimate culled from questionable sources. Unless you can come up with recent, reliable sources to support the material then it will remain deleted. Stone put to sky ( talk) 08:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The sources have already been provided. The sources are quoted just above where we are posting. They clearly contradict the assertions made in the articles you cite. They are more recent. Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The sources are provided above. The arguments are made above. The arguments have already been made many times before. See:
And then there is this absolutely ridiculous statement taken from the Heritage Foundation report that you are quoting:
Considering that the U.S. itself now openly practices both forms of torture, the report does beg a few questions about which is worse: having your face eaten off by rats, getting raped repeatedly by your prison guards who may or may not be using iron bars, having body parts cut off and getting electorcuted or --
what, being locked in solitary confinement because you were guilty of such crimes? Being taunted and ridiculed by your guards? The Heritage Foundation report doesn't really say, now, does it?
The content you seek to include is either directly contradicted by these and other sources in the article, or has been rendered outdated and illegitimate by them. Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Your assertion is quite obviously a false statement.
Stone put to sky (
talk)
10:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Clearly you are wrong on that. The IACH, AI, HRW, etc, all had direct access to the Nicaraguan Government and professional observers on the ground. The U.S. State Dept, Heritage Foundation, and Time Mag didn't.
The IACH also clearly states that there's no evidence those graves had anything to do with Sandinista policy. So to attribute those graves and murders to the Sandinista government will require a source as reliable, neutral, and which had as much access to Nicaraguan government bodies as did the IACH. Clearly that rules out the U.S. State Dept, the Heritage Foundation, and Time Magazine.
The scholarly book does not have definite figures, and so far no analyses using the concept of "Democide" have been able to arrive at a conclusive and accepted methodology.
The article you quote does not have a section dealing with Sandinista human rights violations; instead, there are a series of random quotations, most of which make allegations from extremely suspect research organizations (AEI, the U.S. State Department, the Cuban-American Foundation, etc) and none of which make any categorical statements about the state of Human Rights under the Sandinistas. Since "an encyclopedia entry is not a collection of facts", this article is clearly inadequate for making blanket assertions regarding human rights under the Sandinistas. Stone put to sky ( talk) 10:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The "scholarly book" is a neologism that hasn't received widespread acceptance in the academic community. The figures in that book are disputed even by the idea's supporters.
The IACH reports are from '81 and '92. I was talking about the '92 report. So your "objections" are obviously misplaced.
The Heritage Foundation report is out-dated, suffers from questionable scholarly standards (see the quote, above), and is overtly contradicted by the third-party, neutral sources provided.
The rest of what you write is, as usual, utterly unintelligible. Stone put to sky ( talk) 12:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
If you'll are arguing over Human Rights section, why not just agree to use quotes from Human Rights groups, wouldn't that be easier? Sorry to jump into the fracas, but it just seems like this argument can easily be solved by using the most appropriate source. -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 15:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
See this: [52]. There is no justification for violating fundamental policies such as WP:NPOV. The views of both sides should be presented. Ultramarine ( talk) 08:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you need to go look back into the history of the page; believe it or not, some of us have memories that go back longer than two weeks. There are a few editors who popped in from other pages to help out your defense, but most of the long term editors to this page -- myself included -- have steadfastly opposed inclusion of this material for over half a year, now (at least). Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, precisely. For seven months now people have been protesting at its inclusion and asking you to either remove it, back it up, or re-work it into something more NPOV. You have refused every attempt to re-work it into a neutral point of view. Now that there are editors who are insisting that it be brought into accordance with Wikipedia policy, you are provoking an edit war. Thus, as you so aptly point out: the article was stable as long as other editors here acquiesced to your own skewing of its POV into unfounded, factless lies. Now that there are editors here who are insisting that it be brought into accord with Wikipedia guidelines, you are provoking an edit war and refusing to provide evidence which you claim -- without any proof -- to be abundantly verified. If it's so easily verified then it will be easy for you to back it up. Otherwise, it is now being rejected on the basis of WP:RS. I am once again asking of you: please edit in accord with Wikipedia guidelines. Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
No, you have not presented any "peer-reviewed and scholarly material". You have presented: a 30 year old TIME magazine article; an equally out of date "study" containing many blatant and already demonstrated falsehoods commissioned by the partisan Heritage Foundation; an equally biased article from yet another political journal that contains conspicuously out-of-date material and non-academic sources, among them political front-groups like CANF (among many others), and finally a non-notable book that invents a neologism which it tries to support with obvious factual and statistical inconsistencies that are not verified or validated by any academic sources. Stone put to sky ( talk) 10:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
For whoever this may assist: "Imperialism did not have the great amount of direct investments in Nicaragua that it did in Cuba, and it therefore exercised its control over the country in a less direct fashion. This meant that Nicaraguan capitalists, while they were still a neocolonial bourgeoisie dependent on imperialism, had somewhat greater room for manoeuvre in the conduct of day-to-day affairs, including greater room for intrabourgeois conflicts. This fact and Somoza's use of state power to enrich himself at the expense of competing capitalists combined to create a fairly broad layer of capitalist opposition to the dictatorship, which even engaged in sporadic armed struggle on a few occasions. This bourgeois opposition was not revolutionary or even consistent in its opposition to Somoza, but it had sufficient reality - symbolized by Somoza's assassination of the publisher Chamorro - to attract a certain following amount the workers and peasants."
It goes on to explain how the FSLN were able to recruit those capitalist forces by promising a portion of control to the bourgeois. Source: The Cuban revolution and its extension: Resolution of the Socialist Workers Party. Page 74 -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 14:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is more:
"Capitalists' support for the FSLN was based on tactical coalition, rather than ideological conversion. The basic vision held by the Nicaraguan capitalists of an alternative social structure was primarily reformist and consisted of recasting certain aspects of society and government, rather than introducing broad social transformations. Specifically polity, reduce corruption, reform the National Guard and eliminate its repressive aspects, and introduce some reforms to ameliorate the conditions of the working classes. This vision was hardly compatible with that of the FSLN, and, as a result, capitalists did not shift their support to them until the final days of the revolution when it became clear that no other option existed. As one business leader remarked, "The businessmen thought of the sandinistas as their people. They thought they could put [the Sandinistas] in the field to take care of the guard. Then they would step in and take over when Somoza fell. If there eaws a problem, the United States would stop the Sandinistas from taking power"
In summary, historical divisions and weakness of the capitalist class prevented the business sector from playing an important political role in Nicaragauan politics. Despite rising conflicts, Nicaraguan capitalists were slow to join the opposition and challenge the regime. Although broad segments of the entrpreneurial sector were adversely affected by the earthquake and certain state policies in the early 1970s, and even though they possessed some measure of organization, capitalists failed to play a significant political role immediately after the earthquake. But the assassination of Chamorro and the political and economic crisis resulted in capitalist mobilization and defection from the state. By August 1978, the capitalists ultimately broke away from Somoza and demanded his resignation."
States, Ideologies, and Social Revolutions: A Comparative Analysis of Iran, Nicaragua, and the Philippines by Misargh Parsa for Cambridge University Press. Page 224.
Hopefully these help. -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 16:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I have previously argued for a separate MoS for articles on political parties, one of the issues being on what basis on how to delimitate between governments and the political parties holding office in those governments. I think the ongoing edit war, at least partly, reaffirms the need for such a policy. -- Soman ( talk) 10:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
is there a reason why their is no section on the establishment of emergency rule and cancellation of civil liberties? I cant find it in the discussion pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpineda84 ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I can see the article has had a POV tag since last June [54] but in talk page and archives I've seen discussions are mostly related to the section "Allegations of human rights violations committed by the Sandinistas". Have you considered a {{ POV-section}} tag instead and/or inline tags like {{ POV-statement}}? I think that would help focusing the discussion. JRSP ( talk) 21:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Ultramarine - please discuss your controversial edits and establish consensus before making them. Pexise ( talk) 11:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, you're losing me now, I', not sure what you're talking about here. What are you talking about? The CIIR source is used to state that the Reagan admin was producing anti-Sandinista propaganda - that is corroborated by two other sources in the section and is a widely acknowledged fact with hundreds of other sources, for example in the sections about PRODEMCA, Otto Reich etc. What were you talking about? Pexise ( talk) 10:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
At the time of its publication the journal was published by an unaccredited school. Further, the article was written by the founder of the journal himself (i.e.-- self published). Further, the journal is clearly rife with unsourced speculation and conspiracy theories.
If its such a reliable source then please -- find some other, more clearly reliable, academic sources which say the same thing. Then we shall consider it.
The book and the other articles, however, have already been shown to be too riddled with inconsistencies, outlandish claims, and direct contradictions to the current international consensus regarding these events that they can no longer be considered reliable. Stone put to sky ( talk) 19:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
( talk) 13:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Scholarly articles and peer-revewed articles are not necessarily reliable, remember that WP:RS is only a guideline and several editors have showed they concerns about the credibility of the Demokratizatsiya article and other sources. I understand that simple majority is not the wiki way but that's not the problem here, it appears to be Ultramarine against everyone else. JRSP ( talk) 14:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
But some of that material was clearly outside the scope of the section to which he added it, while some was simply incomprehensible -- i really had no idea what he was trying to say or what he hoped to communicate.
I have no problem discussing the Tribunales Espiciales, nor with showing how they contributed to the era of martial law; however, unless there can be some clear cause-and-effect shown, events which took place in 1979 do not belong in a section that is discussing a time-period that starts in 1982.
JPineda hasn't shown us how these events are related. Once again: i'm happy to discuss inclusion, but an edit that confuses the reader is best left out until it can be re-worked. Stone put to sky ( talk) 04:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I didn't see this on the discussion page earlier. I understand that the time period officially begins in 1982. However, when we are talking about martial law in general is useful to see that their was indeed a precedent to 1982, thus I believe it is very relevant to the entire issue. no? Jpineda84 ( talk) 21:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Ultramarine adds a tag "Totally Disputed" with the comment "See Talk" -- but then doesn't make any comment on the discussion page! Stone put to sky ( talk) 10:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Deleted material can be seen here: [63]. It includes material from sources such as this peer-reviewed article: [64] Or the scholarly book Statistics of Democide by R.J. Rummel, citing numerous sources. The Heritage Foundation is a POV source but this is allowed by WP:NPOV. They also cite many sources for their claims: [65]. TIME is mainstream newspaper: [66]. Ultramarine ( talk) 18:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Can someone incorporate the required sources for this section, if they are in the main page move them over. -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 15:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
In the second to last paragraph of "Sandinista rule (1979-1990)", the senctence structure is rather awkward, and I admit I cannot actually determine what it is exactly trying to say:
"Armed opposition to the Sandinista Government eventually divided into two main groups: The Fuerza Democratica Nicaraguense (FDN), a U.S. supported army formed in 1981 by the CIA, U.S. State Department, and former members of the widely condemned Somoza-era Nicaraguan National Guard; and the Alianza Revolucionaria Democratica (ARDE), a group that had existed since before the FSLN and was led by Sandinista founder and former FSLN supreme commander, Eden Pastora, a.k.a. "Commander Zero".[29] and Milpistas, former anti-Somoza rural militias, which eventually formed the largest pool of recruits for the Contras."
First of all, I can't tell what the two groups of the opposition were. I'm assuming that the first group was the FDN, which was supported by the U.S. and the Nicaraguan National Guard, while the second group was the ARDE. However, the paragraph also states that the ARDE was led by Eden Pastora, who was a Sandinista founder. This seems odd considering that the two groups were stated to be the armed opposition to the Sandinista. Did Pastora switch sides, or was the ARDE not one of the two groups?
If anyone here knows about this, could you please fix it? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.142.33.26 ( talk) 03:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Pastora did change sides, however his group remained quite independent from and generally despised the UNO, refused Washington aid, and equally rejected the UNO/Contra groups as well as the FSLN. "Maverick", indeed; clearly, however, the quotation referred to above is false (Pastora did not make up the "majority" of the UNO and Washington proxies) and should be deleted. Stone put to sky ( talk) 18:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
where are the sources to support any of this information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpineda84 ( talk • contribs) 05:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC) The whole section of CDS is missing crucial information. IE they were intended to politically educate the masses, to mobilize them in effort to push the revolution forward. They were indeed used to apprehend and spy on Contra activities and were empowered to negate rights to those who were against the revolution. But, there are no sources in that section at all, as it stands. I will work on that when i get the chance. Jpineda84 ( talk) 05:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Deleted material can be seen here: [67]. It includes material from sources such as this peer-reviewed article: [68] Or the scholarly book Statistics of Democide by R.J. Rummel, citing numerous sources. The Heritage Foundation is a POV source but this is allowed by WP:NPOV. They also cite many sources for their claims: [69]. TIME is mainstream newspaper: [70]. Ultramarine Ultramarine ( talk) 18:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
All of the information you are now requesting has already been provided, above. Stone put to sky ( talk) 07:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to ask Ultramarine to please explain this diff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196311778&oldid=196284143
It appears that your very first -- and totally unexplained -- move is to delete two sources and replace them with "fact" tags. Why did you do this? Stone put to sky ( talk) 11:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
You eliminated two sources that were not included in the repeated material and then replaced them with "fact" tags. Since the sources that were included lay well outside of the duplicated material i would appreciate it if you would please explain how that happened. Stone put to sky ( talk) 13:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The additions to the content had taken place many edits before. This was not a simple "undo". This was an obvious reversion to a state that existed before the sources had been put into place.
In other words: you were not reverting deleted content, and you were not reverting the inclusion of new content based upon objections to its neutrality. You were -- and this is totally clear from the diff -- reverting content back to a state that existed before the inclusion of two sources that would bolster comments you yourself had tagged as fact.
Please explain this obvious failure in judgment. Stone put to sky ( talk) 14:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's review this step-by-step, shall we?
N4GM makes edit #1, adding the two sources in question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196283091&oldid=196256443
Next, he makes edit #2, removing some highly suspect material that is not attested to in the source offered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196283652&oldid=196283091
Next, N4GM makes edit #3, which is an obvious error in judgment where he accidentally duplicates a whole section of material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196284022&oldid=196283652
Next, N4GM makes edit #4, where he re-introduces the sources he has just accidentally deleted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196284143&oldid=196284022
Next, we have your own edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196311778&oldid=196284143
In this edit, what is patently clear is that you do two things:
Pardon me if i question that last move. What we have here is a clear case where you reverted four different edits without review and deleted clear sourcing as if it were irrelevant to the activity of this project. I am asking again: why is it that you couldn't be bothered to check up and validate the last, proper edit of your fellow editor. Why is that? Stone put to sky ( talk) 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
You didn't answer my question. Apparently you missed it. Here it is again:
Stone put to sky ( talk) 18:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems a very convenient mistake, Ultramarine. Oddly enough, all your mistakes seem similarly convenient. Stone put to sky ( talk) 07:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The United States State Department accused the Sandinistas of many cases of illegal foreign intervention. [9]
One was supporting the FMLN rebels in El Salvador with safehaven; training; command-and-control headquarters and advice; and weapons, ammunition, and other vital supplies. As evidence was cited captured documents, testimonials of former rebels and Sandinistas, aerial photographs, tracing captured weapons back to Nicaragua, and captured vehicles from Nicaragua smuggling weapons. [9] However El Salvador was in the midst of a Civil War in the period in question and that the US was intervening massively against the FMLN.
There were also accusations of subversive activities in Honduras, Costa Rica, and Colombia and in the case of Honduras and Costa Rica outright military operations by Nicaraguan troops. [9]
There were also allegations of the presence of thousands of Cuban and other foreign advisers operating from the highest echelons of ministries to the battalion and even company level, including Cuban pilots flying combat missions. [9]
I have created a little sandbox regarding the disputed material: User:Ultramarine/Sandbox2. Please discuss any objections with explanations here. Ultramarine ( talk) 08:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be no consensus for the big changes introduced by Ulramarine. I took a look at it and it uses questionable POV sources, that need to be looked at further to determine if they meet reliability standards. Also, NPOV is at issue here because the introduction of such large amounts of material creates undo weight for these arguments. I will revert to the long term version until there is some consensus here about what are appropriate parts to Ultramarine's major changes. Giovanni33 ( talk) 01:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've now updated the human rights section in a way which includes all of the sources (as some editors insist on this) in a format which should be more acceptable to other editors. Pexise ( talk) 19:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this version is a compromise - one editor continues to insist that all sources be included, this version does include all the sources in an acceptable format: Pexise ( talk) 10:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished." [10] The IACHR also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [11]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito Indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, " disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property. [12]
In its 1991 annual report the Inter-American Commission stated that "In September 1990, the Commission was informed of the discovery of common graves in Nicaragua, especially in areas where fighting had occurred. The information was provided by the Nicaraguan Pro Human Rights Association, which had received its first complaint in June 1990. By December 1991, that Association had received reports of 60 common graves and had investigated 15 of them. While most of the graves seem to be the result of summary executions by members of the Sandinista People's Army or the State Security, some contain the bodies of individuals executed by the Nicaraguan Resistance." [77]
The 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights contains details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed in 1984 by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contained six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, the report does not state that these executions were part of government policy. [78]
The issue of human rights also became highly politicised at this time as human rights is claimed to be a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter stated in 1985 that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities." [13]
Human Rights Watch also stated in its 1989 report on Nicaragua that: "Under the Reagan administration, U.S. policy toward Nicaragua's Sandinista government was marked by constant hostility. This hostility yielded, among other things, an inordinate amount of publicity about human rights issues. Almost invariably, U.S. pronouncements on human rights exaggerated and distorted the real human rights violations of the Sandinista regime, and exculpated those of the U.S.-supported insurgents, known as the contras." [14]
In 1987 a report was published by the UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as "Progressio"). The report, "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua", [15] discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas ... have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war." The CIIR report refers to estimates made by the NGO Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300".
According to the CIIR report, Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused.
TIME magazine in 1983 published allegations of human rights violations in an article which stated that "According to Nicaragua's Permanent Commission on Human Rights, the regime detains several hundred people a month; about half of them are eventually released, but the rest simply disappear." TIME also interviewed a former deputy chief of Nicaraguan military counterintelligence, who stated that he had fled Nicaragua after being ordered to eliminate 800 Miskito prisoners and make it look like as if they had died in combat. [16]
Also using the Permanent Commission on Human Rights (CPDH) as one of its sources, the Heritage Foundation, a conservative U.S. think tank, in a 1983 report alleged various human rights violations, including censorship, creating a neighborhood system which encouraged spying and reporting by neighbors, torture by state security forces, thousands of political prisoners, assassinations both inside and outside Nicaragua, and that a former Sandinista Intelligence officer has stated that 5,000 were killed in the early months of Sandinsta rule. [17]
R. J. Rummel in his book Statistics of Democide lists many sources and estimates regarding how many were killed during the Sandinista government. Rummel's own estimate, based on those sources, is that the Sandinistas were responsible for 5,000 non-battle related deaths. [18] More than a third of Rummel's sources for these estimates use the Permanent Commission on Human Rights and reports produced by the US State Department during the 1980s. [19]
A 2004 article in the Washington-based peer-reviewed academic journal Demokratizatsiya describes many human rights violations, both during and after their period in power, like that Sandinista security forces assassinated more than two hundred resistance commanders who had accepted the terms of the United Nations-brokered peace accords and had laid down their arms to join the democratic process. [20] Among other sources (29 out of 103), the article uses interviews with Lino Hernández, director of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, leading opposition politicians, reports produced by the US State Department during the 1980s and the conservative Washington Times.
Among the accusations in the Heritage Foundation report and the Demokratizatsiya article are references to alleged policies of religious persecution, particularly anti-semitism. The ICCHRLA in its newsletter stated that: "From time to time the current U.S. administration, and private organizations sympathetic to it, have made serious and extensive allegations of religious persecution in Nicaragua. Colleague churches in the United States undertook onsite investigation of these charges in 1984. In their report, the delegation organized by the Division of Overseas Ministries of the National Council of Churches of Christ in the United States concluded that there is 'no basis for the charge of systematic religious persecution'. The delegation 'considers this issue to be a device being used to justify aggressive opposition to the present Nicaraguan government.'" [21] On the other hand, some elements of the Catholic Church in Nicaragua, among them Archbishop Miguel Obando y Bravo, strongly criticized the Sandinistas. The Archbishop stated "The government wants a church that is aligned with the Marxist-Leninist regime." [79] The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights states that: "Although it is true that much of the friction between the Government and the churches arises from positions that are directly or indirectly linked to the political situation of the country, it is also true that statements by high government officials, official press statements, and the actions of groups under the control of the Government have gone beyond the limits within which political discussions should take place and have become obstacles to certain specifically religious activities." [80]
The CIIR was critical of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights (PCHR or CPDH in Spanish), claiming that the organisation had a tendency to immediately publish accusations against the government without first establishing a factual basis for the allegations. The CIIR report also questioned the independence of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, referring to an article in the Washington Post which claims that the National Endowment for Democracy, an organization funded by the US government, allocated a concession of US$50,000 for assistance in the translation and distribution outside Nicaragua of its monthly report, and that these funds were administrated by Prodemca, a US-based organization which later published full-page adverisments in the Washington Post and New York Times supporting military aid to the Contras. The Permanent Commission denies that it received any money which it claims was instead used by others for translating and distributing their monthly reports in other nations. [81]
The Nicaraguan based magazine Revista Envio, which describes its stance as one of "critical support for the Sandinistas", refers to the report: "The CPDH: Can It Be Trusted?" written by Scottish lawyer Paul Laverty. In the report, Laverty observes that: "The entire board of directors [of the Permanent Commission], are members of or closely identify with the 'Nicaraguan Democratic Coordinating Committee' (Coordinadora), an alliance of the more rightwing parties and COSEP, the business organization." He goes on to express concern about CPDH's alleged tendency to provide relatively few names and other details in connection with alleged violations. "According to the 11 monthly bulletins of 1987 (July being the only month without an issue), the CPDH claims to have received information on 1,236 abuses of all types. However, of those cases, only 144 names are provided. The majority of those 144 cases give dates and places of alleged incidents, but not all. This means that only in 11.65% of its cases is there the minimal detail provided to identify the person, place, date, incident and perpetrator of the abuse." [22]
The Heritage Foundation report appears to play-down human rights abuses committed by the US-backed Somoza regime, stating that: "While elements of the Somoza National Guard tortured political opponents, they did not employ psychological torture." [23] The International Commission of Jurists stated that under the Somoza regime cruel physical torture was regularly used in the interrogation of political prisoners. [24]
As I wrote in the comment: "This is one of the laughably absurd pieces of apologetic propaganda puffery I have ever seen, especially sections citing Prevost's fawning, fellatiatory assessment of Cuban 'assistance'" POV? It's way beyond that -- it's rancid tripe, and insulting to the intelligence of anyone with a lick of sense, and Nicaraguans in particular.-- Mike18xx ( talk) 09:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that stuff about the -ista suffix would be better located at the article about the suffix since the relationship to Sandinista seems rather superficial. Is it really because of them that they adopted the suffix? I doubt this... Brusegadi ( talk) 20:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I removed the "anti-imperialist struggle" term. Sandino was a patriot defending his country against the US Marines occupations in Nicaragua since 1917 or so. He baptized his Army as "The National Sovereignity Defender Army" in Spanish "Ejercito Defensor De La Soberania National" any questions?. Moreover , Sandino did not go one inch beyond his country borders to attack the "Empire" He was in his land trying to repel the intruders, that's all. He was a great patriot and also a bit socialist for he felt for the poor and dreamed about some sort of agrarian reform. His struggle was a nationalist a patriotic campaign or struggle. Nothing else.
I have added this content under the FSLN ideology because I believe it is important content that should be researched by anyone interested in the governance of teh FSLN. I have used a number of reputable sources available under the sources section. This was a part of a course Wikiproject that my thrid year university Course had administered. I am a contributing member of the Nicaraguan Revolution.
If anything happens to be wrong with the contribution, please do not delete it, give me a chance to fix it. Any suggestions are obviously welcomed, but please be kind. -- domenicdemasi ( talk) 17:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I added this small section. Seems worthy of note. SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 23:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted the link to the "Nicaraguan Sign Language" article, because the article itself says that the first school for deaf children was opened in Managua in 1977. The Sandinistas cannot recieve full credit for this, and the link between their movement and the sign language is rather tenuous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.66.26 ( talk) 23:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The neutrality of the "Human Rights" section is compromised by the presence of material published by an ultra right-wing think tank called Heritage Foundation that prepares talking points for the Republican Party. See this, for example. In no way is it qualified to speak on human rights in Nicaragua. Kupredu ( talk) 04:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
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The "democide" figure is bullshit. No reputable human rights group or foreign news agency ever described the Sandinista government as killing thousands of their own citizens. Some crank writing a book and making figures up is not admissable. The Permanent Commission on Human Rights was a US-funded propaganda outlet in Nicaragua that, contrary to every other organization on Earth, found more human rights violations with the FSLN than with the Contras.
The Support of Foreign Fighters section is bullshit, too. The ICJ determined that. In addition, it's pretty amusing that the State Department of the nation that the ICJ determined was waging a war of aggression against Nicaragua gets its own little section throw out accusations and slanders based on US State Department accusations. The part about Cuba is completely redundant as well. I'm heavily editing these sections. MarkB2 01:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am completely neutral on the Sandinistas and on the debate at hand. However I do have to point out that as a reader trying to learn more about the Sandinistas I can say that the article does have a pro-Sandinista lean at times. I would advise everyone debating here to please keep this in mind...it could lead some to questioning figures and claims that are totally legit. On the other side, it can cause some to totally discount the claims being made. Tbkflav 22:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
We're all pro-sandinist here, because we do no think that torture, oppression and social inequality are the final goals of the human race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.196.65.91 ( talk) 01:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Completely unsourced and pov. Objectiosn to removal? Ultramarine 16:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Webster's dictionary [2], the American Heritage dictionary [3], and dictionary.com [4] , democide is not an established word in the english language. Its use in this article must be altered to an accepted word from the English lexicon. Using Neologisms certainly violates Wikipedia's Avoid Neologisms guideline. I have included the relevant sections of the guideline:
Neologism as defined from Wikipedia's Avoid Neologisms
Neologisms are words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities.
Why Wikipedia prohibits using neologisms
Generally speaking, neologisms should be avoided in articles because they may not be well understood, may not be clearly definable, and may even have different meanings to different people. Determining which meaning is the true meaning is original research—we don't do that here at Wikipedia. [5]
Abe Froman 15:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Suggestion to delete democide section as this term is a neologism see discussion. Pexise 17:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Once Abe's bad faith Afd on democide goes down in flames, the argument that "democide" is a violation of WP:NEO will have as much creditability as the AFD did. Ultramarine is absolutely right that Rummel's work is scholarly, well cited and he is a notable. The term, along with his work is used in multiple articles on Wikipedia. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This is tendentious arguing, Pexise. We both know what you would be saying if this source was speaking from your POV. You're not going to succeed in getting impeccably academically referenced work like this removed from the article, period. I can agree to not giving it its own section, but the material will stay. - Merzbow 18:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, it would seem that based on the user input from the Afd the idea that Democide is a neologism and unsuitable for use in a wikipedia article is getting kicked in its nuts quite nicely. Perhaps the result of the Afd will settle this debate. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 00:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Completely unsourced and pov. Objectiosn to removal? Ultramarine 16:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Ultramarine - your academic teaches as a US military and intelligence school. And Notmyrealname is right, this discussion is not about the News World Publications article. We have already had the discussion about the News World Publications article and we agreed that you would try and find the original source. I assume that you have never been able to find it. Pexise 20:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You are relentless, Ultramarine. It's an official UN report. But we have to balance out that report, don't we. I'm sure you have some old press releases from Eliott Abrams calling the FSLN despots you could use, Ultramarine. And Oliver North's testimony is some good evidence that's relevant. MarkB2 Chat 21:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Your claims are incorrect. Publishing without evidence = not accepting prior censorship. Receiving US funding = for translation and not given to the organization itself. Membership to opposition parties = unclear what you mean. Regarding your quote "Hernandez told Preston: "Our institution doesn't receive a cent from PRODEMCA or Endowment." When he made that assertion recently to envío, we asked about the Endowment's funding of the international distribution of the publications. He responded: "If you make 100 photocopies of our bulletin and distribute them to friends, does that make us dependent on you?" Meaning that if other recieve money for copying or translating your bulletin, this does not mean that you are have been influenced. Ultramarine 17:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give a proper reference (book and page number) about the Carlos Fonseca/NORAD accusation? I can't seem to find it in the sources listed (and as cited above, Andrew seems to think the most notable Sandinista action against a US target was the attempted kidnapping of an ambassador). (I originally posted this at the end of a previous discussion, but it was apparently lost in the hullabaloo). Notmyrealname 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
We should have a separate section on this election, there is much to discuss. Thoughts? Ultramarine 17:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I edited the section that claimed the FDN was comprised largely of ex-Guardia and wealthy landowners because their is nothing to substantiate this, and that in fact most of the footsoldiers of the FDN were peasants. At their peak the Guardia had no more than 6,000 members. Thousands were killed by the FSLN, many others fled, and a few stayed to lead the counter-revolutionary struggle. The Milpistas were the regular soldiers that did the fighting and the dying. Jpineda84 ( talk) 00:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
the FDN was a military wing, it did not run for office in the 84 elections. That the FDN abdictated from the elections is impossible since they were never running! UNO was the leading party that was running against the FSLN and there is no proof that they did not make the decision to quit solely on the advice of Washington. Jpineda84 ( talk) 02:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm really new to wikipedia so I really don't know how to address people directly, I guess this is the best I can do for now. My main concern is the neglection of UNO from the 1984 election section. Arturo Cruz was running for UNO and not for any FDN party, which didnt exist. I'm not sure about how we formally settle this argument, there are no references in that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpineda84 ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I revised the old version which stated that "new parties" were created under the Sandinistas that were never allowed under Somoza. This sentence was supported by Leslie E. Anderson and Lawrence C Dodd's "Learning Democracy", pg. 65. Knowing this to be falls, and knowing the Sandistas intense dislike for democracy in principle, I checked out the source, and of course, nothing of this sort is stated. In fact, pg. 64 and pg 65 of the book which begins the chapter on the 1984 elections described the Sandinistas aversion to democracy and the external and internal political pressures that made 1984 possible. This book was written by academics holding doctorates in History and Political Science, I dont understand the accusation of not using a "main stream source" whatever that means Jpineda84 ( talk) 03:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC) On a further note, if you are attacking my source why do you revert it to the previous version which uses the same source, yet completely fabricates the information? clearly if a correct paraphrase of the source is wrong, and incorrect paraphrase is worse Jpineda84 ( talk) 03:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Dennis Gilbert's the Sandinistas: The Party And The Revolution. Blackwell Publishers, 1988, is also used in this entry. Pg 22 of his book can be used to corroborate some of this information. He explains how Humberto Ortega described the revolution as “irreversible” and asserted that the purpose of elections was to “improve revolutionary power, not to raffle who has power”, elections were held to gain international legitimacy, however some parties “existed only on paper”. Sandinista restrictions had deliberately limited their development. Elections were strategic in the long term goals held out in th e"72 hour document" of 1979 --- a lot of it is there, Gilbert's book is often used as authority in this subject.
In Lafeber, Inevitable Revolutions, 2nd ed. (a man who is a Sandinistophile)also states on pg 308 that the Sandinistas gave into the Contadora groups demands for an election due to "growing religious, economic and military pressures" and to maintain the political initiative on the United States. Nothing about wanting new parties, nothing and wanting plurality. He does mention of p 309 about using "strong arm tactics to keep the opposition as weak as possible". This book is also an authority in the field. Jpineda84 ( talk) 03:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | As with politics before it, the 1984 election drew upon the democratic qualities of ideology as formulated by Downs; provided a forum for all parties; and encouraged contestation and participation as formulated by Dahl. It was itself an excercise in dissent within the growing political space offered under the new regime. It offered a chance to exchange information and express alternative opinions about the state of the nation. | ” |
“ | Others sharply disagreed. Western European delegations observed and approved the election process. Fifteen U.S. experts making up the Latin American Studies Association Observer Delegation reached a unanimous agreement that (in the words of one leader), "the election was fair, clean, and competitive, and that the Reagan Administration and the U.S. mass media ... had performed in a reprehensible manner" in judging the elections" | ” |
- There is no dispute on the fact that their were elections and that parties competed. The argument is over the impetus of such an election, which did not come from a sincere will for democracy on behalf of the Sandinistas. Furthermore, political parties existed and competed under Somoza, they were not new developments, as was implied in the original post.
-What was new was the success of internal and external forces in pressuring the Nicaraguan regime to hold an actual election. This is argued in Dodds.
- Lefarber has no evidence that the US "placed a mock candidate" and thus does not argue it anywhere in his book and is not proven in your quote. In fact, Arturo Cruz had plans of his own and had many disagreements with the US, he was politically active, and was a Sandinista, way before AMeican intervention, these FACTS are demonstrated in any basic history of the revolution, including Inevitable Revolutions. Jpineda84 ( talk) 21:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
"growing political sphere" does not equate to new parties Jpineda84 ( talk) 01:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to TDC we now have a peer-reviewed article documenting serious human right violtions both during and after the Sandinistas were in power. [25] I will start incorporating it. Ultramarine 18:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The references of the article include many interviews with Lino Hernández head of the CPDH. e.g. "9. Lino Hernandez, director, Comité Permanente de Derechos Humanos, interview with author, Managua, Nicaragua, June 4, 1999. ", there are many others. Pexise 20:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not going to waste my time reading a clearly unreliable and biased article in order to ascertain what percentage or to what degree the article uses the CPDH, you can change it to 'the article uses interviews...' Pexise 20:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be lost on a few of the editors here that citing a lot of academics from the country that was waging war on the Sandinistas might not be the best way to source the article. I'll be sure to go on over to the East Timor page and rewrite the history of their genocide with some useful Indonesian sources. MarkB2 Chat 12:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It is relevant and important to discuss the PCHR - the subject of the section is the politicization of human rights which heavily involves the PCHR. They are also widely discussed in human rights literature. My objection to the CIIR quote was that it seemed too long and not particularly relevant. I'll make some changes. Pexise 13:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This sole source for this section is a statement by Vernon Walters, the US Ambassador to the UN, directed at the UN Security Council in 1986. Considering the fact that the US was at war with Nicaragua at the time, this statement doesn't really count as a WP:RS. This section should be deleted until real sources are provided. Notmyrealname 20:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Um, no propaganda would be best I think we would all agree. A couple of good sources about US propaganda in Latin America may be NACLA [26] and the Council on Hemispheric Affairs [27]. For example look at this article about master propagandist Otto Reich (note the section about the Office of Public Diplomacy 'Master of Diplomacy: OPD 1983-86' [28] also have a look at this site about the Office of Public Diplomacy: [29] Pexise 22:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
There's even PDFs of the original declassified documents: [31] [32] might be worth looking for human rights stuff in them. there's certainly mention of human rights in the first document. Pexise 23:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
OK - will change it - might also be worth having a separate section about US propaganda discussing PRODEMCA, the Office of Public Diplomacy etc. Pexise 11:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It would be good to start this new section. I have mentioned some sources in the previous discussion, could also be linked to Wikipedia pages on National Endowment for Democracy, Prodemca, The Office of Public Diplomacy, Otto Reich, Oliver North etc. Pexise 11:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is all based on a biased point of view. Is it really proper to have section on the politicization on human rights? Isn't the entire Sandinista-US relationship and history highly politicized? Every issue is politicized, there's no need to qualify and justify human rights abuses because they have been 'politicized'. Any so called achievement from the Sandinista rule is glorified from the left whether it is a real achievement or not. This is an equivalent of having a sections called "the politicization of Sandinistas social achievements". It simply is not useful information and is fundamentally a POV.
This has got to be one of the most POV sections of the article. Not only does editorialize, it goes out of the way to suggest that the Sandinistas are somehow blameless.
"The issue of human rights during the 1980s in Nicaragua should be treated with great care. It is impossible to deal with the issue without taking account of the circumstances and context in which events took place. It is very important to consider that a counter-revolutionary war was being fought against the government in this period (by the US-backed Contras) and that part of the government response to the situation of conflict was to enact a state of emergency, which included the derogation of certain human rights."
This entire article has a left wing slant where it goes on and on about the horrors of the Samazo dictatorship, but downplays the human rights violations committed by the Sandinistas. I am definatly editing this out. 216.201.33.20 05:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I am completely neutral on the Sandinistas, their legacy, and the US Involvement. I really don't know anything about it. However, this section in particlar does have a definitive pro-Sandinista lean. This is an encyclopedia...whose purpose is to educate. The opening paragraph of this section is almost an apology for bringing up the potential human rights abuses. This is not the way an article or section should open. While I will not remove the passage, I strongly recommend someone remove the opening sentence advising "great care". As I highlighted earlier...no one need apologize for documenting an accusation. There isn't a similar passage in the earlier reference to CIA involvement in Drug Smuggling...leads me to think that the passage is either intended to placate people who disagree that there were human rights abuses, or that it it was intended to discredit the entire section by saying "Be Careful...what follows may be Bullshit". That kind of prefacing should be happening on the talk page. Just something to be aware of. Tbkflav 22:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Also...sorry I forgot... Additionally - to Smokey the Cat...your above claim that the Sandinistas were a "Good Gov't" is pure opinion and quite clearly indicates the POV of this section. Where in any encyclopedia does a government's perceived benevolence or malevolence become relevant to a documentation on it's existance? You can document the accusation of such...the fact that the opinion exists...but to come out and cleanly advocate that they were "good" and to "get used to it" is pure crap when talking about the encyclopedic value of the section.
Then, to Pexise...what the F does Bush have to do with an article on potential Sandinista human rights abuses? Answer: Not one d@mn thing. Why are you using up bandwith on Bush here on a talk page for Sandinistas??? I like Bush about as much as I like a stinky diaper...but even bringing him up is like me bringing up the relative effectiveness of my God Damn detergent on a talk page for an article on the LA Dodgers. It has no friggin bearing. Please do not misconstrue as a personal attack...you clearly feel very strongly about good ole W and I applaud you for it...but I don't see why its being discussed here. Tbkflav 23:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
LOL! Gotcha Pexise...great minds think alike. I don’t consider the day complete until I wind someone up one way or another. Makes this whole thing a bit more fun, don't you think? Anyway - First off...you're right about the talk page. Smokey the Cat can share his/her opinion all she/he wants, even if it sucks and has absolutely no merit in an academically honest medium. That is what the talk page is for after all, right? Second: While I completely understand and support the spirit of what you're trying to accomplish with the warning, I ultimately still disagree that it should be there, and I'll tell ya why. The accusation of human rights abuses, whether true or not, does exist. Not only does it exist, but the accusation was made by many...some more influential than others. Now...it very well could be that it's all crap, and it's very important to note that in the article. That's not the argument here. My point is that instead of a disclaimer, that counterpoints or rebuttals be made in the passage itself. This allows the reader to review the facts presented along with the claim and the corresponding rebuttal FIRST, and then draw their own conclusion. A warning or disclaimer circumvents that. It immediately calls into question the legitamacy of the claim, and can cause the reader to disregard the facts presented since the reader may be under the assumption that the material is faulty and not to be believed. Secondly, using this warning could lead some to accuse bias, since the warning was not consistently used for all controversies in the article. Case in point is the CIA/Drug Dealing scenario. Many believe this is true, but a great deal think its crap, just as some think the Sandinista rights abuses are crap. The warning advising "great care" seems to be missing here. Why would it only be present in a section on rights abuses when the same scenario exists for the CIA? Some would draw a conclusion of bias. To illustrate, the following is an example of the alternative: "The Sandinistas have been accused by many of human rights abuses during their time in power (source). While many have made this claim, others have advanced the idea that the abuses were non-existant/minimal, and that the reports of such abuses were in fact a hoax created for propaganda value (source). The legitamacy and extent of Sandinista rights abuse is still subject to much debate, but abuse is claimed nonetheless." I think that is much more effective in questioning the abuse claims than a disclaimer...but I've been known to have been wrong before (as my brilliant plan to drink hot coffee through a straw would indicate). Later everyone, and go CU.
Tbkflav
08:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Well said and well taken...but I still think its not very "encyclopediaesque" to present a disclaimer and I maintain the opinion that the section's opening could be improved upon. The wording isn't so unacceptable to me that I feel I have to change it...but if someone does re-write the section so that the gist of the warning was woven into the content (and voiding the need for the warning)I would be in support of their effort. It does set an interesting precedent though. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess...although I will say the experience has broadened my knowledge base on the topic.
Beware though... Using the same logic, its conceivable that (albeit an extreme case) that an editor that happens to be a Neo Nazi or other type of holocaust denier could end up inserting a similar warning at the beginning of an article on the holocaust. While most people would be outraged, they would realize that the warning is crap and a mind game (please don't misunderstand here...I'm not saying that your warning is crap or a mind game...just the one in the example!!) , it would make the editors and Neo-Nazis feel good that they could challenge the existence of the holocaust via attacking the legitimacy of the evidence. They would justify it by saying all the holocaust sources/backup are a bunch of "lies" and propaganda created by the Jews, and that billions of dollars have been spent to perpetuate the "myth" by a conspiracy of collaborating Communists, Jews, and the media all to discredit National Socialism. If we're academically honest, we couldn't challenge them on the validity of the warning because of it's existence under similar conditions in this article. If anyone did challenge, they would claim bias and a double standard, which would just make them feel even better. The thought of a smug faced bigot sitting at a computer feeling justified makes me sick. If it wasn't so outrageous, I'd almost be tempted to test my hypothesis to see the reaction...however I'm just not sick enough in the head to do it.
Probably the last time I'll comment on this. I'd love to continue the discussion, but I'm in Chicago for the weekend and theres a lot of beer to be drank, and a lot of drunk chicks around. Drunk chicks dig me!!! Ciao! Tbkflav 00:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
True dat Tbkflav 16:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think its fair, then, to make a "politicization of Contra human rights abuses", and if not, then this section should be scrappred. Jpineda84 ( talk) 17:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Please explain this unexplained deletion of sourced material. [37]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by user Ultramarine ( talk • contribs) Revision as of 09:07, 23 July 2007.
Also please explain this deletion of sourced material. [39] Objections to restoring? Ultramarine 15:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I took the section out again. It contradicts the first paragraph of this section making it nonsense. SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 18:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
The Human Rights section on this article is completly pro-communist propoganda, look at the first line "The issue of human rights during the 1980s in Nicaragua should be treated with great care. It is impossible to deal with the issue without taking account of the circumstances and context in which events took place. It is very important to consider that a counter-revolutionary war was being fought against the government in this period (by the US-backed Contras). It is also very important to note that the human rights issue became politicized at this time (see section below on the Politicization of human rights and also articles on The Office of Public Diplomacy and Prodemca). Note that this applies to both sides."
This is a personal commentary from a POV perspective, not a neutral fact or statement, if were going to get subjective how about telling people whose family members were disapeared, murdered, or tortured by the Sandinistas that this is an issue that should be treated with great care. It is neither impossible nor necessary to look at the so called "context" wikipedia is about facts not personal points of view on the facts. This paragraph alone is gone. 216.255.40.172 02:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
First off I don't take orders from you, secondly your consensus doesn't mean anything when it violates wiki standards and rules, just because propoganda was used at that time does not allow for this sort of POV Commentary on the issue, wikipedias job is to report the facts not tell people how to interpet them, if you are concerned about propoganda then state that the Reagan Administration made charges, and the Sandinistas denied them, instead of violating wiki standards.
That entire paragraph is the topic for discussion, and is entirely inapropriate, as is most of this article. This entire article needs to be re-worked to remove the POV slant, by the editors that work on it to simply report claims, facts, and statements not spin them their way or comment on them.
Even as somebody who is no expert on this subject, I could tell within five seconds that this article is not even remotely credible, and it is articles like this that are the reason schools are now banning wikipedia as resource.
Include facts, claims, and statements, from both sides, but this entire article as it currently stands is b.s. along with that paragraph, and it violates every wiki standard even if it does have a consensus. 216.255.40.172 02:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The reason its POV is because it is a commentary on the subject of the politicaztion of human rights, not a recording of the facts that one party says human rights were politicized. Its an injection of an opinion or belief by wikipedias editors, not a claim made by any of the parties relevant to the article, which is inapropriate.
It tells people that this issue should be treated with great care, and that it is politicized, ect . . . which is in and of itself a point of view. My charge is that wikis editors have either intentionally or inadvertently injected their own point of view. The fact is they also state human rights issues were used by both sides for human rights abuses, weather or not that is true it is a stated opinion, and as it is not presented as the claim of one group that was there it is highly POV.
A more approrpraite approach to this issue would be to say that the Reagan Administration made charges of human rights violations against the Sandinistas, and the Sandinistas denied the charges claiming the Reagan Administration was using it for political reasons. That is NPOV, while at the same time keeping the claims, but the fact is wikipedias editors have no buisness interjecting their opinion about weather or not human rights issues were politicized, ect . . . into an article, or telling people how to interpret claims made by either side. 216.255.40.172 20:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Right now I am not proposing re-writing the section, I am proposing that this paragraph which is really irelevant, and is POV, should be deleted. It is not necessary either, and has nothing to do with the article anyway and is just someones stated point of view.
And yes I do know thens of thousands of people lost their lives because of the Nicaraguan civil war. 216.255.40.172 18:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Uh, and that is relevanthow? No one is denying that tens of thousands of people died irrespective of what you call it.
At any rate The Contras were Nicaraguan citizens who opposed the Sandinistas, not foreign mercenaries, and the Sandinistas were backed by the U.S.S.R. through Cuba. Just because the Contra's were counter revolutionaries doesn't mean that it wasn't a civil war. Other people list it as a Civil War, http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDnicaragua.htm and http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Nicaragua-Inside-Sandinistas/dp/1560007613
At any rate what does that have to do with the paragraph that I nominated for deletion, and again it doesn't matter that it was inserted with a consensus if it clearly violates wiki standards on NPOV and Soap Box, and it does. 216.255.40.172 00:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Because it is a Point of View, it is a commentary, not a FACT, and as you stated Wikipedia deals with Facts, and using wikipedia to spread a commentary is using it as a soapbox.
Just because no one point of view is being privileged, and it states that it applies to both sides does not excuse the fact that it is in itself a point of view.
It expresses a point of view about human rights being politicized, and then expresses a point of view about what context the issue should be viewed in, and then expresses that this point of view should be on both sides. This is inparopriate, wikipedia is an encylopedia not a blog, and this sort of commentary doesn't belong.
As for it being a Civil War, the definition of civil war is one in which the citizens of a country engage in war against one another, which would describe Nicaragua, as both the Contras and the Sandinistas were Nicaraguan citizens. 216.255.40.172 18:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The Contras operating out of Honduras and Costa Rica were still Nicaraguan citizens, only in exile.
As for modifying, the problem is not one that can be modified, the entire paragraph which I copied here is a pov commentary by wikipedia's editors which has to be deleted to bring this article into line with wiki standards.
As for cutting out partisan sources, I see no reason to exclude or single out the Heritage Foundation, and I have yet to hear what sources you consider to be non-partisan. 216.255.11.132 02:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue is not about weather or not human rights abuses were politicized, the issue is about what people claim concerning them. IT would be best if you stated NGO CIIR claims the issue of human rights was politicized.
As for the Heritage Foundation there is no rule that sources have to be non-partisan, as for human rights organizations they are just as partisan as anything else. The fact is there is no legitimate reason to censor either Heritage or TIME, just because one was involved in the Reagan Administration, and the other has no "experience."
The fact is that this article is about the Sandinistas, and the Heritage Foundation has just as much to say about the Sandinistas Human Rights record as any other group, in fact that was one of the reasons they were influential in the Reagan Administration, they were voicing their opinion on the Human Rights record of the Sandinistas.
I don't understand why Time Magazine should not be included. Wikipedia generally goes with Mainstream sources, experience not withstanding. Time Magazine is just as legitimate as any other source, and in some cases moreso. They should stay in. 216.255.11.132 ( talk) 10:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the following version would be a marked improvement:
Allegations of human rights violations committed by the Sandinistas
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished."[34] The Commission also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [35]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito Indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, "disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property.[36]
In its 1991 annual report the same source stated that "In September 1990, the Commission was informed of the discovery of common graves in Nicaragua, especially in areas where fighting had occurred. The information was provided by the Nicaraguan Pro Human Rights Association, which had received its first complaint in June 1990. By December 1991, that Association had received reports of 60 common graves and had investigated 15 of them. While most of the graves seem to be the result of summary executions by members of the Sandinista People's Army or the State Security, some contain the bodies of individuals executed by the Nicaraguan Resistance."[6]
In a 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights there are details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed in 1984 by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contianed six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, the report does not state that these executions were part of government policy.[7]
Politicization of human rights
The issue of human rights also became highly politicised at this time as human rights is claimed to be a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter stated in 1985 that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration ... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities."[40]
Human Rights Watch also stated in its 1989 report on Nicaragua that: "Under the Reagan administration, U.S. policy toward Nicaragua's Sandinista government was marked by constant hostility. This hostility yielded, among other things, an inordinate amount of publicity about human rights issues. Almost invariably, U.S. pronouncements on human rights exaggerated and distorted the real human rights violations of the Sandinista regime, and exculpated those of the U.S.-supported insurgents, known as the contras."[42]
In 1987 a report was published by the UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as Progressio). The report, "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua",[43] discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas ... have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war." The CIIR report refers to estimates made by the NGO Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300".
According to the CIIR report, Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused.
Pexise ( talk) 20:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
While I agree that what you presented is an improvement, the primary problem with all the quotes you provided is that while they may be from technically non-partisan sources, they are all one sided, and unanimous in their condemnation of the Reagan Administration. I can not believe there were no human rights groups that had anything favorable to say concerning the Reagan's human rights foreign policy, and to include only one side still present serious POV problems, although not nearly as serious as it was before.
As a counter I recomend this lecture by Jeane Kirkpatrick, who was Ronald Reagan's U.N. Ambassador and the chief architect of his dealings in Latin America, http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human%20Rights%20Documents/Kirkpatrick_HRPolicy.html
I will state though that I am un-comfortable giving Human Rights groups an exclusive monopoly on this though, and I think other sources need to be found as well.
216.255.11.132 ( talk) 09:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find any reference to the Sandinistas in the source you quoted. Shall we agree to replace the current version with what I've presented here, and that you will add positive comments about the Reagan administration's Human Rights policy in Nicaragua when you find them (though obviously from an independent source)? Pexise ( talk) 13:48, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Haven't been on for a while, sorry about leaving the discussion up in the air. Just a brief comment, NPOV means by the editor, biased sources can and may be included provided they are countered by equaly biased sources.
Including only "Human Rights" groups is extremely POV, because it only allows for the bias of that group, it ignores the fact that human rights groups were for instance directly assisting the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, and the Frente in El Salvador, it should be remembered that during the cold war that human rights groups could mean anything you wanted them to be.
Giving a group that slaps the label human rights on themselves a monopoly to the extent that mainstream media sources such as Time Magazine are supressed, is both POV and censorship and not appropriate.
As for the Heritage Foundation that can be arued either way, but above all their is no cause under any circumstances to censor or suppress the mainstream media, in the name of only including Human Rights groups. Wikipedia specifically encourages use of mainstream media sources that are widely available to the general public, such as TIME Magazine. 216.255.11.132 ( talk) 16:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
responding to Ultramarine's assertion that we should use the Demokratizatsiya article - it is hardly an appropriate source, being "The Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization is an international interdisciplinary quarterly journal devoted to changes in the late Soviet Union and post-Soviet states, issued by Heldref Publications in Washington, DC. It covers the processes in these countries since 1985" - not at all specialist in Latin America or Human Rights and the article in question also uses questionable sources including US State Department documents and the questionable human rights organisation used in the Time magazine article. Pexise ( talk) 19:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it is appropriate that we discuss the appropriate sources for this section here, in the interests of improving a convoluted section, which at the moment seems to have a somewhat 'anything goes' approach.
I propose that, with the quality of the section in mind, we try to use human rights sources that are impartial, not linked to either side in the conflict and expert. For this reason, I propose the use of the IACHR and the international human rights organisations. I propose that we discount sources that are clearly partialised or obviously linked to propaganda, or that are not expert or specialised in this area.
It may be worth creating a new section in the article documenting propaganda where propaganda linked sources can be presented - this is an idea I had proposed previously - the section could follow the human rights section and be titled something like: "US propaganda during the Sandanista government". That would be a good place for sources such as the Heritage Foundation. This would be a way to include all of the current sources, if that's what we really want to do.
Finally, regarding the CIIR - they are in impartial organisation which is not linked in any way to the Sandinistas, the Contras or the US government, and they have written an extensive, well documented, impartial report - I think this makes them an entirely appropriate source. Pexise ( talk) 02:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
An alternative version of the human rights section has been proposed, please comment if you think it is an improvement.
This is the alternative proposal:
Re: Pexise's question:
Re: Ultramarine's question:
Well, then -- if Ultramarine agrees with me that there is a vast disparity in favor of the Contras then we are clearly in agreement. I'm happy to hear that. Stone put to sky ( talk) 19:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished." [3] The IACHR also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [4]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito Indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, " disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property. [5]
In its 1991 annual report the Inter-American Commission stated that "In September 1990, the Commission was informed of the discovery of common graves in Nicaragua, especially in areas where fighting had occurred. The information was provided by the Nicaraguan Pro Human Rights Association, which had received its first complaint in June 1990. By December 1991, that Association had received reports of 60 common graves and had investigated 15 of them. While most of the graves seem to be the result of summary executions by members of the Sandinista People's Army or the State Security, some contain the bodies of individuals executed by the Nicaraguan Resistance." [40]
The 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights contains details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed in 1984 by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contained six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, the report does not state that these executions were part of government policy. [41]
The issue of human rights also became highly politicised at this time as human rights is claimed to be a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter stated in 1985 that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities." [6]
Human Rights Watch also stated in its 1989 report on Nicaragua that: "Under the Reagan administration, U.S. policy toward Nicaragua's Sandinista government was marked by constant hostility. This hostility yielded, among other things, an inordinate amount of publicity about human rights issues. Almost invariably, U.S. pronouncements on human rights exaggerated and distorted the real human rights violations of the Sandinista regime, and exculpated those of the U.S.-supported insurgents, known as the contras." [7]
In 1987 a report was published by the UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as "Progressio"). The report, "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua", [8] discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas ... have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war." The CIIR report refers to estimates made by the NGO Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300".
According to the CIIR report, Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused.
The sources quoted were: Time Magazine, the Heritage Foundation, and an obscure book expounding on the concept of "Democide". In and of themselves, any source is generally reliable. In this case, however, each makes extraordinary claims that are unsubstantiated by any well-regarded academic or official sources, nor are they widely substantiated by other respected observers. Thus, they have been culled until such time as corroborating sources can be provided to back up their claims. Stone put to sky ( talk) 11:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
"Time" magazine is not a "well-known newspaper". Further, the points in question make "extraordinary claims" that are clearly contrary to established academic consensus. Unless you can find a well-respected academic source that backs their claims up then it is inadmissible as a source.
The "Heritage Foundation" is a right-wing political activist group; again, if the claim it were making were in-and-of-itself uncontroversial then the citation would stand. The claims made, however, are not backed up by any academic sources.
The "Democide" book is, certainly, a scholarly work. It does not deal with the Sandinistas in particular; it mentions the Nicaraguan revolution only as one conflict among many, and only as a supplement to its main thesis. The figures it cites, therefore, are a novel interpretation that are neither backed up nor verified by any other organizations or academic sources. UOnce again: if the claims made are truly scholarly citations, then it will be easy for you to find other academics that back up the accusations made.
As things stand, you have attempted to force the inclusion of three extraordinary claims based on three different, suspicious sources without any supporting evidence to back these claims up. This is the essence of Wikipedia:Verifiability: if one is making extraordinary claims then solid, reliable sources must be provided.
On this basis, therefore, the material will remain deleted until you come up with reliable corroborating sources. 06:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
We have already had an RfC treating these subjects, above. The arguments you are putting forth here have already been repeatedly dealt with above, over the course of some six months. In the past, many editors here have, in the interest of avoiding an edit-war, acceded to the inclusion of the material. Yet in each case this was only an accession avoid an edit war -- in all cases where the material has been questioned there has been no effort on your own part to attempt to reach consensus or portray an accurate version of the prevailing academic and international consensus regarding the points in question.
The two sections above were floated as an RfC. To anyone who is sincerely interested in writing an encyclopedic, NPOV article it is clear that these two sections are a vast improvement over the clearly propagandistic and narrowly pro-Reagan, pro-U.S.A. version that you are now arguing for. It is unfortunate that you yourself are unable to acknowledge the clear bias and baselessness of the version you prefer. Even so, the community here has -- over the course of nearly a year now -- spoken repeatedly:
The sources you are arguing for are not substantial enough to support the claims you are making. If Time magazine said something in 1983 that, as of today, virtually all HRO's, international observers, and academics dispute then it is not up to Wikipedia to include the source but, instead, up to you to find a recent, alternate and more reliable proponent. The same clearly goes for any quotes from a 1983 Heritage Foundation report -- and would also follow for any such claims by the CCCP, Granma, the New York Times, or whatever. Wikipedia makes it quite clear that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources", and the sources you have provided are clearly inadequate to the arguments you are making.
Now, the Democide book is, in and of itself, a useful source. Unfortunately it, too, is making extraordinary and poorly-sourced claims about Sandinista rule. Further, it undertakes no detailed analysis of the period under Sandinista rule, and what analysis is undertaken is only in the context of a book that tries to deal with over 100 years of historical analysis. While "a third" of its sources may have come from reliable HROs, the unfortunate truth is that many of its sources are considered quite questionable by Wikipedia standards and, among mainstream academics, the book has entirely failed to find traction or support.
So, once again: extraordinary claims require extraordinary support. Stone put to sky ( talk) 06:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It is not up to me to provide sources for my challenges here, on the discussion page. It is, however, required for you to show us more and better sources for these claims.
Once again: one 1983 article from a non-academic, non-peer-reviewed, partisan source is not enough to support an extraordinary claim that disputes all modern, academic and formal scholarship on the issue in question.
Once again: i don't need to show proof that i am right on this -- you must show us the additional, reliable, recent sources that support your claims.
Now, regarding the Democide book, there is a lot of controversy surrounding Rummel's definitions and methodology. He tries to keep battle deaths, capital punishment, and military "collateral non-com deaths" outside his definition of "democide"; however, many of the instances he includes in his statistics are alleged to fall under these various categories, while other statistics which he does not include (when dealing with democracies) have been alleged to be circumstances which fall outside these allowances. There is considerable academic controversy about this approach and about whether or not Rummel is, in fact, stacking the analytical deck by using a definition that allows him to eliminate unfortunate challenged to his thesis by manipulating the definitions and interpretations of different data sets. Stone put to sky ( talk) 07:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Simply ignoring my points will not work here, Ultramarine. I have already explained to you repeatedly why the sources you have provided are questionable and fail Wikipedia guidelines. You now seem to believe that simply by ignoring their deficiencies and declaring them as reliable sources you can force their inclusion on the page. Things don't work that way here, though. The relevant wikipedia guidelines have already been quoted for you. After a cursory glance i see at least five different editors here that have made similar or the same criticisms and comments on the material in question. If you cannot bring it into line with wikipedia standards and guidelines then i am afraid that we will be forced to exclude it from the page. Stone put to sky ( talk) 08:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have already answered all of your claims above. The sources you have provided are from 1983 and contradicted by more recent, authoritative, neutral, and internationally accepted sources. The Democide book is considered only a preliminary, non-authortitative estimate culled from questionable sources. Unless you can come up with recent, reliable sources to support the material then it will remain deleted. Stone put to sky ( talk) 08:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The sources have already been provided. The sources are quoted just above where we are posting. They clearly contradict the assertions made in the articles you cite. They are more recent. Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The sources are provided above. The arguments are made above. The arguments have already been made many times before. See:
And then there is this absolutely ridiculous statement taken from the Heritage Foundation report that you are quoting:
Considering that the U.S. itself now openly practices both forms of torture, the report does beg a few questions about which is worse: having your face eaten off by rats, getting raped repeatedly by your prison guards who may or may not be using iron bars, having body parts cut off and getting electorcuted or --
what, being locked in solitary confinement because you were guilty of such crimes? Being taunted and ridiculed by your guards? The Heritage Foundation report doesn't really say, now, does it?
The content you seek to include is either directly contradicted by these and other sources in the article, or has been rendered outdated and illegitimate by them. Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Your assertion is quite obviously a false statement.
Stone put to sky (
talk)
10:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Clearly you are wrong on that. The IACH, AI, HRW, etc, all had direct access to the Nicaraguan Government and professional observers on the ground. The U.S. State Dept, Heritage Foundation, and Time Mag didn't.
The IACH also clearly states that there's no evidence those graves had anything to do with Sandinista policy. So to attribute those graves and murders to the Sandinista government will require a source as reliable, neutral, and which had as much access to Nicaraguan government bodies as did the IACH. Clearly that rules out the U.S. State Dept, the Heritage Foundation, and Time Magazine.
The scholarly book does not have definite figures, and so far no analyses using the concept of "Democide" have been able to arrive at a conclusive and accepted methodology.
The article you quote does not have a section dealing with Sandinista human rights violations; instead, there are a series of random quotations, most of which make allegations from extremely suspect research organizations (AEI, the U.S. State Department, the Cuban-American Foundation, etc) and none of which make any categorical statements about the state of Human Rights under the Sandinistas. Since "an encyclopedia entry is not a collection of facts", this article is clearly inadequate for making blanket assertions regarding human rights under the Sandinistas. Stone put to sky ( talk) 10:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The "scholarly book" is a neologism that hasn't received widespread acceptance in the academic community. The figures in that book are disputed even by the idea's supporters.
The IACH reports are from '81 and '92. I was talking about the '92 report. So your "objections" are obviously misplaced.
The Heritage Foundation report is out-dated, suffers from questionable scholarly standards (see the quote, above), and is overtly contradicted by the third-party, neutral sources provided.
The rest of what you write is, as usual, utterly unintelligible. Stone put to sky ( talk) 12:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
If you'll are arguing over Human Rights section, why not just agree to use quotes from Human Rights groups, wouldn't that be easier? Sorry to jump into the fracas, but it just seems like this argument can easily be solved by using the most appropriate source. -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 15:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
See this: [52]. There is no justification for violating fundamental policies such as WP:NPOV. The views of both sides should be presented. Ultramarine ( talk) 08:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you need to go look back into the history of the page; believe it or not, some of us have memories that go back longer than two weeks. There are a few editors who popped in from other pages to help out your defense, but most of the long term editors to this page -- myself included -- have steadfastly opposed inclusion of this material for over half a year, now (at least). Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, precisely. For seven months now people have been protesting at its inclusion and asking you to either remove it, back it up, or re-work it into something more NPOV. You have refused every attempt to re-work it into a neutral point of view. Now that there are editors who are insisting that it be brought into accordance with Wikipedia policy, you are provoking an edit war. Thus, as you so aptly point out: the article was stable as long as other editors here acquiesced to your own skewing of its POV into unfounded, factless lies. Now that there are editors here who are insisting that it be brought into accord with Wikipedia guidelines, you are provoking an edit war and refusing to provide evidence which you claim -- without any proof -- to be abundantly verified. If it's so easily verified then it will be easy for you to back it up. Otherwise, it is now being rejected on the basis of WP:RS. I am once again asking of you: please edit in accord with Wikipedia guidelines. Stone put to sky ( talk) 09:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
No, you have not presented any "peer-reviewed and scholarly material". You have presented: a 30 year old TIME magazine article; an equally out of date "study" containing many blatant and already demonstrated falsehoods commissioned by the partisan Heritage Foundation; an equally biased article from yet another political journal that contains conspicuously out-of-date material and non-academic sources, among them political front-groups like CANF (among many others), and finally a non-notable book that invents a neologism which it tries to support with obvious factual and statistical inconsistencies that are not verified or validated by any academic sources. Stone put to sky ( talk) 10:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
For whoever this may assist: "Imperialism did not have the great amount of direct investments in Nicaragua that it did in Cuba, and it therefore exercised its control over the country in a less direct fashion. This meant that Nicaraguan capitalists, while they were still a neocolonial bourgeoisie dependent on imperialism, had somewhat greater room for manoeuvre in the conduct of day-to-day affairs, including greater room for intrabourgeois conflicts. This fact and Somoza's use of state power to enrich himself at the expense of competing capitalists combined to create a fairly broad layer of capitalist opposition to the dictatorship, which even engaged in sporadic armed struggle on a few occasions. This bourgeois opposition was not revolutionary or even consistent in its opposition to Somoza, but it had sufficient reality - symbolized by Somoza's assassination of the publisher Chamorro - to attract a certain following amount the workers and peasants."
It goes on to explain how the FSLN were able to recruit those capitalist forces by promising a portion of control to the bourgeois. Source: The Cuban revolution and its extension: Resolution of the Socialist Workers Party. Page 74 -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 14:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is more:
"Capitalists' support for the FSLN was based on tactical coalition, rather than ideological conversion. The basic vision held by the Nicaraguan capitalists of an alternative social structure was primarily reformist and consisted of recasting certain aspects of society and government, rather than introducing broad social transformations. Specifically polity, reduce corruption, reform the National Guard and eliminate its repressive aspects, and introduce some reforms to ameliorate the conditions of the working classes. This vision was hardly compatible with that of the FSLN, and, as a result, capitalists did not shift their support to them until the final days of the revolution when it became clear that no other option existed. As one business leader remarked, "The businessmen thought of the sandinistas as their people. They thought they could put [the Sandinistas] in the field to take care of the guard. Then they would step in and take over when Somoza fell. If there eaws a problem, the United States would stop the Sandinistas from taking power"
In summary, historical divisions and weakness of the capitalist class prevented the business sector from playing an important political role in Nicaragauan politics. Despite rising conflicts, Nicaraguan capitalists were slow to join the opposition and challenge the regime. Although broad segments of the entrpreneurial sector were adversely affected by the earthquake and certain state policies in the early 1970s, and even though they possessed some measure of organization, capitalists failed to play a significant political role immediately after the earthquake. But the assassination of Chamorro and the political and economic crisis resulted in capitalist mobilization and defection from the state. By August 1978, the capitalists ultimately broke away from Somoza and demanded his resignation."
States, Ideologies, and Social Revolutions: A Comparative Analysis of Iran, Nicaragua, and the Philippines by Misargh Parsa for Cambridge University Press. Page 224.
Hopefully these help. -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 16:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I have previously argued for a separate MoS for articles on political parties, one of the issues being on what basis on how to delimitate between governments and the political parties holding office in those governments. I think the ongoing edit war, at least partly, reaffirms the need for such a policy. -- Soman ( talk) 10:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
is there a reason why their is no section on the establishment of emergency rule and cancellation of civil liberties? I cant find it in the discussion pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpineda84 ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I can see the article has had a POV tag since last June [54] but in talk page and archives I've seen discussions are mostly related to the section "Allegations of human rights violations committed by the Sandinistas". Have you considered a {{ POV-section}} tag instead and/or inline tags like {{ POV-statement}}? I think that would help focusing the discussion. JRSP ( talk) 21:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Ultramarine - please discuss your controversial edits and establish consensus before making them. Pexise ( talk) 11:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, you're losing me now, I', not sure what you're talking about here. What are you talking about? The CIIR source is used to state that the Reagan admin was producing anti-Sandinista propaganda - that is corroborated by two other sources in the section and is a widely acknowledged fact with hundreds of other sources, for example in the sections about PRODEMCA, Otto Reich etc. What were you talking about? Pexise ( talk) 10:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
At the time of its publication the journal was published by an unaccredited school. Further, the article was written by the founder of the journal himself (i.e.-- self published). Further, the journal is clearly rife with unsourced speculation and conspiracy theories.
If its such a reliable source then please -- find some other, more clearly reliable, academic sources which say the same thing. Then we shall consider it.
The book and the other articles, however, have already been shown to be too riddled with inconsistencies, outlandish claims, and direct contradictions to the current international consensus regarding these events that they can no longer be considered reliable. Stone put to sky ( talk) 19:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
( talk) 13:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Scholarly articles and peer-revewed articles are not necessarily reliable, remember that WP:RS is only a guideline and several editors have showed they concerns about the credibility of the Demokratizatsiya article and other sources. I understand that simple majority is not the wiki way but that's not the problem here, it appears to be Ultramarine against everyone else. JRSP ( talk) 14:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
But some of that material was clearly outside the scope of the section to which he added it, while some was simply incomprehensible -- i really had no idea what he was trying to say or what he hoped to communicate.
I have no problem discussing the Tribunales Espiciales, nor with showing how they contributed to the era of martial law; however, unless there can be some clear cause-and-effect shown, events which took place in 1979 do not belong in a section that is discussing a time-period that starts in 1982.
JPineda hasn't shown us how these events are related. Once again: i'm happy to discuss inclusion, but an edit that confuses the reader is best left out until it can be re-worked. Stone put to sky ( talk) 04:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I didn't see this on the discussion page earlier. I understand that the time period officially begins in 1982. However, when we are talking about martial law in general is useful to see that their was indeed a precedent to 1982, thus I believe it is very relevant to the entire issue. no? Jpineda84 ( talk) 21:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Ultramarine adds a tag "Totally Disputed" with the comment "See Talk" -- but then doesn't make any comment on the discussion page! Stone put to sky ( talk) 10:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Deleted material can be seen here: [63]. It includes material from sources such as this peer-reviewed article: [64] Or the scholarly book Statistics of Democide by R.J. Rummel, citing numerous sources. The Heritage Foundation is a POV source but this is allowed by WP:NPOV. They also cite many sources for their claims: [65]. TIME is mainstream newspaper: [66]. Ultramarine ( talk) 18:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Can someone incorporate the required sources for this section, if they are in the main page move them over. -- N4GMiraflores ( talk) 15:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
In the second to last paragraph of "Sandinista rule (1979-1990)", the senctence structure is rather awkward, and I admit I cannot actually determine what it is exactly trying to say:
"Armed opposition to the Sandinista Government eventually divided into two main groups: The Fuerza Democratica Nicaraguense (FDN), a U.S. supported army formed in 1981 by the CIA, U.S. State Department, and former members of the widely condemned Somoza-era Nicaraguan National Guard; and the Alianza Revolucionaria Democratica (ARDE), a group that had existed since before the FSLN and was led by Sandinista founder and former FSLN supreme commander, Eden Pastora, a.k.a. "Commander Zero".[29] and Milpistas, former anti-Somoza rural militias, which eventually formed the largest pool of recruits for the Contras."
First of all, I can't tell what the two groups of the opposition were. I'm assuming that the first group was the FDN, which was supported by the U.S. and the Nicaraguan National Guard, while the second group was the ARDE. However, the paragraph also states that the ARDE was led by Eden Pastora, who was a Sandinista founder. This seems odd considering that the two groups were stated to be the armed opposition to the Sandinista. Did Pastora switch sides, or was the ARDE not one of the two groups?
If anyone here knows about this, could you please fix it? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.142.33.26 ( talk) 03:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Pastora did change sides, however his group remained quite independent from and generally despised the UNO, refused Washington aid, and equally rejected the UNO/Contra groups as well as the FSLN. "Maverick", indeed; clearly, however, the quotation referred to above is false (Pastora did not make up the "majority" of the UNO and Washington proxies) and should be deleted. Stone put to sky ( talk) 18:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
where are the sources to support any of this information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpineda84 ( talk • contribs) 05:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC) The whole section of CDS is missing crucial information. IE they were intended to politically educate the masses, to mobilize them in effort to push the revolution forward. They were indeed used to apprehend and spy on Contra activities and were empowered to negate rights to those who were against the revolution. But, there are no sources in that section at all, as it stands. I will work on that when i get the chance. Jpineda84 ( talk) 05:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Deleted material can be seen here: [67]. It includes material from sources such as this peer-reviewed article: [68] Or the scholarly book Statistics of Democide by R.J. Rummel, citing numerous sources. The Heritage Foundation is a POV source but this is allowed by WP:NPOV. They also cite many sources for their claims: [69]. TIME is mainstream newspaper: [70]. Ultramarine Ultramarine ( talk) 18:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
All of the information you are now requesting has already been provided, above. Stone put to sky ( talk) 07:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to ask Ultramarine to please explain this diff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196311778&oldid=196284143
It appears that your very first -- and totally unexplained -- move is to delete two sources and replace them with "fact" tags. Why did you do this? Stone put to sky ( talk) 11:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
You eliminated two sources that were not included in the repeated material and then replaced them with "fact" tags. Since the sources that were included lay well outside of the duplicated material i would appreciate it if you would please explain how that happened. Stone put to sky ( talk) 13:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The additions to the content had taken place many edits before. This was not a simple "undo". This was an obvious reversion to a state that existed before the sources had been put into place.
In other words: you were not reverting deleted content, and you were not reverting the inclusion of new content based upon objections to its neutrality. You were -- and this is totally clear from the diff -- reverting content back to a state that existed before the inclusion of two sources that would bolster comments you yourself had tagged as fact.
Please explain this obvious failure in judgment. Stone put to sky ( talk) 14:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's review this step-by-step, shall we?
N4GM makes edit #1, adding the two sources in question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196283091&oldid=196256443
Next, he makes edit #2, removing some highly suspect material that is not attested to in the source offered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196283652&oldid=196283091
Next, N4GM makes edit #3, which is an obvious error in judgment where he accidentally duplicates a whole section of material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196284022&oldid=196283652
Next, N4GM makes edit #4, where he re-introduces the sources he has just accidentally deleted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196284143&oldid=196284022
Next, we have your own edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front&diff=196311778&oldid=196284143
In this edit, what is patently clear is that you do two things:
Pardon me if i question that last move. What we have here is a clear case where you reverted four different edits without review and deleted clear sourcing as if it were irrelevant to the activity of this project. I am asking again: why is it that you couldn't be bothered to check up and validate the last, proper edit of your fellow editor. Why is that? Stone put to sky ( talk) 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
You didn't answer my question. Apparently you missed it. Here it is again:
Stone put to sky ( talk) 18:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems a very convenient mistake, Ultramarine. Oddly enough, all your mistakes seem similarly convenient. Stone put to sky ( talk) 07:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The United States State Department accused the Sandinistas of many cases of illegal foreign intervention. [9]
One was supporting the FMLN rebels in El Salvador with safehaven; training; command-and-control headquarters and advice; and weapons, ammunition, and other vital supplies. As evidence was cited captured documents, testimonials of former rebels and Sandinistas, aerial photographs, tracing captured weapons back to Nicaragua, and captured vehicles from Nicaragua smuggling weapons. [9] However El Salvador was in the midst of a Civil War in the period in question and that the US was intervening massively against the FMLN.
There were also accusations of subversive activities in Honduras, Costa Rica, and Colombia and in the case of Honduras and Costa Rica outright military operations by Nicaraguan troops. [9]
There were also allegations of the presence of thousands of Cuban and other foreign advisers operating from the highest echelons of ministries to the battalion and even company level, including Cuban pilots flying combat missions. [9]
I have created a little sandbox regarding the disputed material: User:Ultramarine/Sandbox2. Please discuss any objections with explanations here. Ultramarine ( talk) 08:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be no consensus for the big changes introduced by Ulramarine. I took a look at it and it uses questionable POV sources, that need to be looked at further to determine if they meet reliability standards. Also, NPOV is at issue here because the introduction of such large amounts of material creates undo weight for these arguments. I will revert to the long term version until there is some consensus here about what are appropriate parts to Ultramarine's major changes. Giovanni33 ( talk) 01:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've now updated the human rights section in a way which includes all of the sources (as some editors insist on this) in a format which should be more acceptable to other editors. Pexise ( talk) 19:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this version is a compromise - one editor continues to insist that all sources be included, this version does include all the sources in an acceptable format: Pexise ( talk) 10:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished." [10] The IACHR also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [11]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito Indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, " disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property. [12]
In its 1991 annual report the Inter-American Commission stated that "In September 1990, the Commission was informed of the discovery of common graves in Nicaragua, especially in areas where fighting had occurred. The information was provided by the Nicaraguan Pro Human Rights Association, which had received its first complaint in June 1990. By December 1991, that Association had received reports of 60 common graves and had investigated 15 of them. While most of the graves seem to be the result of summary executions by members of the Sandinista People's Army or the State Security, some contain the bodies of individuals executed by the Nicaraguan Resistance." [77]
The 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights contains details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed in 1984 by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contained six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, the report does not state that these executions were part of government policy. [78]
The issue of human rights also became highly politicised at this time as human rights is claimed to be a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter stated in 1985 that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities." [13]
Human Rights Watch also stated in its 1989 report on Nicaragua that: "Under the Reagan administration, U.S. policy toward Nicaragua's Sandinista government was marked by constant hostility. This hostility yielded, among other things, an inordinate amount of publicity about human rights issues. Almost invariably, U.S. pronouncements on human rights exaggerated and distorted the real human rights violations of the Sandinista regime, and exculpated those of the U.S.-supported insurgents, known as the contras." [14]
In 1987 a report was published by the UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as "Progressio"). The report, "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua", [15] discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas ... have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war." The CIIR report refers to estimates made by the NGO Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300".
According to the CIIR report, Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused.
TIME magazine in 1983 published allegations of human rights violations in an article which stated that "According to Nicaragua's Permanent Commission on Human Rights, the regime detains several hundred people a month; about half of them are eventually released, but the rest simply disappear." TIME also interviewed a former deputy chief of Nicaraguan military counterintelligence, who stated that he had fled Nicaragua after being ordered to eliminate 800 Miskito prisoners and make it look like as if they had died in combat. [16]
Also using the Permanent Commission on Human Rights (CPDH) as one of its sources, the Heritage Foundation, a conservative U.S. think tank, in a 1983 report alleged various human rights violations, including censorship, creating a neighborhood system which encouraged spying and reporting by neighbors, torture by state security forces, thousands of political prisoners, assassinations both inside and outside Nicaragua, and that a former Sandinista Intelligence officer has stated that 5,000 were killed in the early months of Sandinsta rule. [17]
R. J. Rummel in his book Statistics of Democide lists many sources and estimates regarding how many were killed during the Sandinista government. Rummel's own estimate, based on those sources, is that the Sandinistas were responsible for 5,000 non-battle related deaths. [18] More than a third of Rummel's sources for these estimates use the Permanent Commission on Human Rights and reports produced by the US State Department during the 1980s. [19]
A 2004 article in the Washington-based peer-reviewed academic journal Demokratizatsiya describes many human rights violations, both during and after their period in power, like that Sandinista security forces assassinated more than two hundred resistance commanders who had accepted the terms of the United Nations-brokered peace accords and had laid down their arms to join the democratic process. [20] Among other sources (29 out of 103), the article uses interviews with Lino Hernández, director of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, leading opposition politicians, reports produced by the US State Department during the 1980s and the conservative Washington Times.
Among the accusations in the Heritage Foundation report and the Demokratizatsiya article are references to alleged policies of religious persecution, particularly anti-semitism. The ICCHRLA in its newsletter stated that: "From time to time the current U.S. administration, and private organizations sympathetic to it, have made serious and extensive allegations of religious persecution in Nicaragua. Colleague churches in the United States undertook onsite investigation of these charges in 1984. In their report, the delegation organized by the Division of Overseas Ministries of the National Council of Churches of Christ in the United States concluded that there is 'no basis for the charge of systematic religious persecution'. The delegation 'considers this issue to be a device being used to justify aggressive opposition to the present Nicaraguan government.'" [21] On the other hand, some elements of the Catholic Church in Nicaragua, among them Archbishop Miguel Obando y Bravo, strongly criticized the Sandinistas. The Archbishop stated "The government wants a church that is aligned with the Marxist-Leninist regime." [79] The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights states that: "Although it is true that much of the friction between the Government and the churches arises from positions that are directly or indirectly linked to the political situation of the country, it is also true that statements by high government officials, official press statements, and the actions of groups under the control of the Government have gone beyond the limits within which political discussions should take place and have become obstacles to certain specifically religious activities." [80]
The CIIR was critical of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights (PCHR or CPDH in Spanish), claiming that the organisation had a tendency to immediately publish accusations against the government without first establishing a factual basis for the allegations. The CIIR report also questioned the independence of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, referring to an article in the Washington Post which claims that the National Endowment for Democracy, an organization funded by the US government, allocated a concession of US$50,000 for assistance in the translation and distribution outside Nicaragua of its monthly report, and that these funds were administrated by Prodemca, a US-based organization which later published full-page adverisments in the Washington Post and New York Times supporting military aid to the Contras. The Permanent Commission denies that it received any money which it claims was instead used by others for translating and distributing their monthly reports in other nations. [81]
The Nicaraguan based magazine Revista Envio, which describes its stance as one of "critical support for the Sandinistas", refers to the report: "The CPDH: Can It Be Trusted?" written by Scottish lawyer Paul Laverty. In the report, Laverty observes that: "The entire board of directors [of the Permanent Commission], are members of or closely identify with the 'Nicaraguan Democratic Coordinating Committee' (Coordinadora), an alliance of the more rightwing parties and COSEP, the business organization." He goes on to express concern about CPDH's alleged tendency to provide relatively few names and other details in connection with alleged violations. "According to the 11 monthly bulletins of 1987 (July being the only month without an issue), the CPDH claims to have received information on 1,236 abuses of all types. However, of those cases, only 144 names are provided. The majority of those 144 cases give dates and places of alleged incidents, but not all. This means that only in 11.65% of its cases is there the minimal detail provided to identify the person, place, date, incident and perpetrator of the abuse." [22]
The Heritage Foundation report appears to play-down human rights abuses committed by the US-backed Somoza regime, stating that: "While elements of the Somoza National Guard tortured political opponents, they did not employ psychological torture." [23] The International Commission of Jurists stated that under the Somoza regime cruel physical torture was regularly used in the interrogation of political prisoners. [24]
As I wrote in the comment: "This is one of the laughably absurd pieces of apologetic propaganda puffery I have ever seen, especially sections citing Prevost's fawning, fellatiatory assessment of Cuban 'assistance'" POV? It's way beyond that -- it's rancid tripe, and insulting to the intelligence of anyone with a lick of sense, and Nicaraguans in particular.-- Mike18xx ( talk) 09:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that stuff about the -ista suffix would be better located at the article about the suffix since the relationship to Sandinista seems rather superficial. Is it really because of them that they adopted the suffix? I doubt this... Brusegadi ( talk) 20:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I removed the "anti-imperialist struggle" term. Sandino was a patriot defending his country against the US Marines occupations in Nicaragua since 1917 or so. He baptized his Army as "The National Sovereignity Defender Army" in Spanish "Ejercito Defensor De La Soberania National" any questions?. Moreover , Sandino did not go one inch beyond his country borders to attack the "Empire" He was in his land trying to repel the intruders, that's all. He was a great patriot and also a bit socialist for he felt for the poor and dreamed about some sort of agrarian reform. His struggle was a nationalist a patriotic campaign or struggle. Nothing else.
I have added this content under the FSLN ideology because I believe it is important content that should be researched by anyone interested in the governance of teh FSLN. I have used a number of reputable sources available under the sources section. This was a part of a course Wikiproject that my thrid year university Course had administered. I am a contributing member of the Nicaraguan Revolution.
If anything happens to be wrong with the contribution, please do not delete it, give me a chance to fix it. Any suggestions are obviously welcomed, but please be kind. -- domenicdemasi ( talk) 17:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I added this small section. Seems worthy of note. SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 23:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted the link to the "Nicaraguan Sign Language" article, because the article itself says that the first school for deaf children was opened in Managua in 1977. The Sandinistas cannot recieve full credit for this, and the link between their movement and the sign language is rather tenuous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.66.26 ( talk) 23:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The neutrality of the "Human Rights" section is compromised by the presence of material published by an ultra right-wing think tank called Heritage Foundation that prepares talking points for the Republican Party. See this, for example. In no way is it qualified to speak on human rights in Nicaragua. Kupredu ( talk) 04:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
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