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Some comments and observations:
After a Cuban reorganization of the FSLN structure and tactics in the 1970s, it began to attract significant support from the country's increasingly politicised peasantry
1) Ironically, we can't give Cuba or the Sandinistas the credit for the increased support among the peasentry.
The Christian Democracy movement was as its height in Latin America. In Nicaragua, the Social Christian Party (PSC), had many followers on the countryside. They were supporters of the establishment of cooperatives, labor unions and opposing the classical liberalism and capitalism.
The Christian Democracy movement gained more and more supporters, even in the universities, where the FSLN traditionally recruited their members. Fonseca criticised the Christian Democracy's demagogy and stated the that the Marxism was the idelogical core of the Sandinismo.
2) The reorganization, and subsequent fragmention of the FSLN.
With a increasing support of the Christian Democracy movement and the failure of the foco theory in Bocay (1963) and Pancasán (1967), the Sandinista leadership put emphasis on the cult of "The New Man", "El Hombre Nuevo".
A true Sandinista had to undergo a "purification ceremony" known as "La Montaña" ("The Mountain"). "La Montaña" was the place where the guerilla was going to arise. "La Montaña" was seen as a process, a rebirth of the person both politically and of social awareness. "El Hombre Nuevo" was going to be made in "La Montaña" - the mountains of Nicaragua, the home of the Sandinista guerilla.
This emphasis on "La Montaña" was going to contribute on the fragmentation of the FSLN.
A new generation of Sandinista activists had grown strong in the cities. This tendency was reinforced by the victory of the Revolutionary Students Front (FER) in the Student Union elections Managua in the late 60's. These new Sandinistas had no official connection with the Sandinista leadership but identified themselves with the FSLN.
In 1974 the FSLN decided to send all new activists in the urban areas to the mountains.
The new activists were politically active in the cities and not very fond of the idea of moving into the mountains. In their point of view, the guerilla in the mountains were more concerned on trying to survive than on actually winning the war against Somoza. This resistance from the Sandinista activists in the city was reinforced by Jaime Wheelock book "Imperialismo y Dictadura" (Imperialism and Dictatorship), an historic analysis of the class struggle and the transformation of the economical structures in Nicaragua.
Wheelock came to the conclusion that due to the industrial expansion in the country in the recent years, a real working class has arose in Nicaragua. And since the historical antagonism has been between the working class and the traditional oligarchy, it was FSLN's duty to build up the revolution with the workers at the forefront.
FSLN's immediate reaction was to ban Wheelock and other leading proletarios. And with that, the Sandinistas split in two factions or "tendencias".
1) The Proletarian Tendency (Proletarios), led by Jaime Wheelock, Luis Carrión and Roberto Huembes that sought to organise urban workers.
2) The GPP, Guerra Popular Prolongada (Prolonged Popular War) faction that promoted "La mística revolucionaria", the revolutionary idealism and devotion towards "La Montaña" and the edification of the new man, "el hombre nuevo". The GPP faction was rural-based and sought long-term "silent accumulation of forces" within the country's large peasant population, which it saw as the main social base for the revolution.
The breaking-up was not an isolated situation that affected only the Nicaraguan progressive forces. It was common phenomenon in whole Latin America mainly due to the fall of the socialistic regime in Chile and the failure of the foco theory.
The foco theory was a concept developed by the Cuban revolutionary leaders Castro and Guevara. The basis of the idea is that it is not necessary to wait until the objective conditions are right before commencing an insurgency. Foco theory argues that a small group of armed insurgents can act as the focal point for discontents and thereby create the conditions for opposition. Guevara's subsequent campaign in Bolivia failed to substantiate the theory, and its successful application remains unique to the Cuban revolution.
Carlos Fonseca returned to Nicaragua in November 1975 from his exile in Cuba in an attempt to mediate between these two factions. He was killed by the National Guard one year later in the Zinica region in Matagalpa, Nicaragua. His body was mutilated and his hands send to Managua for a proper identification.
After Fonseca's death there were several unsuccessful attempts to reunite the two factions of the FSLN. In 1976 with a third faction came into scene led by the brothers Daniel and Humberto Ortega. The "terceristas" (the third way) as they called themselves, was ideologically eclectic, favouring a more rapid insurrectional strategy in alliance with diverse sectors of the country, including business owners, churches, students, the middle class, unemployed youth and the inhabitants of shantytowns. In the practice, this was the "winning strategy" that conducted the FSLN to the victory in 1979.
The terceristas also helped attract popular and international support by organising a group of prominent Nicaraguan professionals, business leaders, and clergymen (known as Grupo de los Doce, "the Twelve"), who called for Somoza's removal and sought to organise a provisional government from Costa Rica.
On January 10, 1978, Pedro Joaquín Chamorro, editor of the anti-Somoza newspaper La Prensa, was assassinated by the National Guard. It sparked a broad uprising against the regime. The Sandinistas led a combination of general strikes, urban uprisings and rural guerrilla attacks. The United States discontinued the military aid to the Somoza regime.
A few months later the opposition merged into the Broad Opposition Front (FAO), integrated by the liberal Nicaraguan Democratical Movement (MDN), the conservative Democratic Liberation Union (UDEL) and the Twelve, the Sandinistas spokesmen.
In August 1978 a group of terceristas disguised as members of Somoza's National Guard stormed the National Palace and took as hostages several members of the Nicaraguan Congress, which was in session at the time of the attack, and Somoza's half brother, José Somoza. The assault of the National Palace was led by Edén Pastora.
After a few days of negotiations the government capitulated to the insurgents demands; freeing of political prisoners, publication in the press and radio broadcasts of FSLN's political communiqué and a $500,000 ransom. The guerrillas, as well as the released prisioners, were flown to exile in Panamá. The streets were full of cheering people on their trip to Las Mercedes airport in Managua for their flight out of the country.
Due to the actual situation in the country, the United States initiated negotiations with Somoza and the FAO. The only proposal in the agenda was that Somoza had to hand the goverment over to a junta with representants from both the National Guard and Somoza's Liberal Party. FSLN considered it to be inacceptable and with that the Twelve broke-up from the FAO and organized the National Patriotic Front (FPN) as an alternative to FAO.
The three factions of the FSLN unified on January 1979. The leadership of the unified FSLN was composed by nine members, three members from each faction.
Somoza refused to negotiate with the oppposition. That position affected FAO - the right-wing opposition, that in contrast to the FPN didn't have any army, and whose power in the future depended on a political solution of the conflict.
The FSLN and the FPN launched a final offensive on June 1979. In a desperate movement, Somoza ordered the aerial bombardment of Nicaraguan cities, killing thousands of civilians and increasing the people's rage towards the regime.
Somoza fled the country on July 17. Following his resignation, Francisco Urcuyo Maliaños was Acting President of Nicaragua for a single day in 1979. Upon taking office, he announced his intention to serve out the remainder of Somoza's term, in violation of an agreement reached some weeks earlier between the government and the Sandinista rebel forces. This announcement provoked a strong reaction from the Sandinistas, other Latin American states, and the Carter Administration in the U.S. Recognizing the untenability of his situation, Urcuyo fled to Guatemala on July 18.
Although the Sandinistas didn't enter Managua and officialy assumed the power until two days later, the 19th July of 1979 is considered to be the official day of the liberation of Nicaragua from the Somoza regime.
-- Magicartpro 19:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
This part of the article becomes a bit repetitive since the break-up of the FSLN is explained in the History section. Some passages from the Sandinista Ideologies main article can be featured here.
-- Magicartpro 19:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
According to the guidelines on Wikipedia:Disputed statement
The material is not unlieky (as you have yet to provide a source challenging it) and a well known and notable reference has most certainly been provided
It has been verified as per the Wikipedia guidelines on Wikipedia:Verifiability which I will quote:
Well, we are all entitle to our opinions on cetain users, but two other users, Jmable and Viajero have looked over the material in question, see above, and have not commented on it after our discussion.
Your continual insertion of tags is a gross violation of stated policy, and your comparison of Andrew’s work and Red Dawn is a clear case of childish vandalism. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I might also add that your insertion of BS disputed tags is also vadalization:
Why on earth would we have the movie red Dawn in the article...it is a fiction based movie quite obviously-- MONGO 07:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the most recent edit by
Torturous Devastating Cudgel adding citations regarding the Mitrokhin material, I have some observations to make:
-- Atavi 10:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that we are wasting to much effort and energy to this single topic. I made several observations on the first three sections of this article that can be used to improve it. I don't know if we can reach a consensus on the disputed passages of the article and move on. -- Magicartpro 15:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I have protected this page due to a need to rehash out the contents without edit warring. Thanks. Let me know when a consensus is reached.-- MONGO 19:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It would appear to me that the crux of this current debate is as follows: some editors disagree with the Andrew (and other) material, but don’t have or will not cite a source that can offer a counter argument, so instead they take to criticizing the source. Attack the messenger instead of the message. While this is not disallowed, as long as said critics conform to WP:RS and WP:V, it’s a tangential attempt to fork the article because said critics are not attacking the specific conclusion in the article, only those who present them.
As such, I feel that any criticisms of Andrew and Mitrokhin belong in their respective articles, and criticism of their allegations against the Sandinistas belong in the Sandinista article. As is we are applying broad criticisms to address several narrow allegations.
If there is material that states “no the Soviets did not aid the Sandinistas, or no the Stasi did not organize the Sandinistan secret police, by all means introduce it, but I think it does a great disservice to the article to avoid this and instead focus on attacking the messenger instead of providing contrary information to the message.
Now, Abe, what specifically do you have to offer in an attempt to compromise and remove this protection. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Is a criticism of a source in general, but not to the specific conclusions that the sources makes on a subject be allowed in an article. For example, “John Doe thinks that Acme chocolate ice cream is very good, but Jane Doe thinks that John Doe is a fraud” should Jane Doe’s criticism of John Doe go into the Acme chocolate ice cream article, or into the John Doe article.
Specifically here, Christopher Andrew, drawing off the work of Vasili Mitrokhin, claims that the KGB recruited a number of top Sandinistan officials, including one of its founders, and held a great deal of influence over the organization and subsequent government. Criticisms has been added that only deals with Mitrokhin (I think), not Andrew or the specific allegation with regard to the FSLN. Should these criticisms go here or in the Vasili Mitrokhin and Christopher Andrew articles?
This article is not about a book. Material critical of the book belongs in the authors article. Either the source passes WP:RS and WP:V or it does not. Plain and simple. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This may surprise some of you, but I'm more with TDC than not here. Abe, Mitrokhin is not your hypothetical "tooth fairy". We usually treat Mitrokhin as a generally reliable, but by no means a flawless, source. To my knowledge, the only notably better sources on KGB matters are official archival releases (and, like CIA releases, those aren't flawless either): please tell me if you are aware of other, better "inside the KGB" sources.
I don't think this article needs a general critique of Mitrokhin. On the other hand:
This is also exactly the way I would expect handle a source like, for example, Daniel Ortega himself. We should be clear whose account we are retailing, but (in the absence of a specific, citable, critique or differing account) this is not the place to take up the precise degree of reliability of a generally reliable, but not entirely disinterested, source.
TDC's conduct elsewhere is irrelevant to the question at hand: I certainly have confronted him when I've seen him on the other side of this argument when it suits his political purposes, and I wish he would consistently extend to other editors the same fair treatment he demands for himself. - Jmabel | Talk 21:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The main article is about the FSLN, not the KGB or Mitrokhin. It can be cited in the context as "Carlos Fonseca, a young student and alleged by Mitrokhin to be a KGB recruit". But I don't see the need for an entire section with extended information about alleged conspiracy theories. In that case we have to edit the main British Labour Party article in order to include Mitrokhin's allegations on the fact that many members of the Labour party were KGB agents. And maybe another section with our conclusions on the role that the KGB played in Tony Blair's victory over the conservatives. And the fact that Tony Blair is President Bush's closest allied is maybe an evidence that the United States is on it's way to become a Communist State? Who knows? -- Magicartpro 22:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The fundamental problem here is that TDC is trying once again to push his POV into this article. He is going well being adding noncontroversial facts to the article. There is no controversy about the fact that Carlos Fonseca and other Sandinista leaders were ideological believers in some form of Marxism-Leninism (although their versions of Marxism differ significantly from the Soviet version). There is also no dispute over the fact that they were guerrilla revolutionaries who overthrew the Somoza dictatorship by force. If you actually follow the footnotes of Andrews/Mitrokhin, in fact, you'll find that most of the evidence they present in support of these assertions is taken from the writings of people such as Donald Hodges (Intellectual Foundations of the Nicaraguan Revolution) and from the very biography of Carlos Fonseca by Matilde Zimmermann that TDC has sneeringly dismissed here.
The statements in this article that are highly questionable involve the claim by Andrews/Mitrokhin that Fonseca and the Sandinistas were recruited by the KGB for acts of violence and sabotage inside the United States. The evidence that Andrews/Mitrokhin present for this claim is very thin. In The World Was Going Our Way, which contains the largest treatment that they offer of this claim, Carlos Fonseca is only mentioned by name on two pages of the book (pages 41-42). Moreover, the passage in which Andrews/Mitrokhin discuss this charge is at odds with the interpretation that TDC is trying to foist upon this article. On page 42-43 of The World Was Going Our Way, they state:
What we're left with, then, is the claim that the KGB attempted to recruit the FSLN for attacks on targets inside the United States, but no evidence that the FSLN ever actually undertook any such attacks or ever agreed to do so. In fact, the evidence from Andrews/Mitrokhin suggests that the FSLN expressly refused to do so, and that the individual within the FSLN who the KGB was trying to recruit for that purpose (Ubeda, not Fonseca) didn't even know that the KGB was trying to use him.
If you read Andrews' notes, moreover, he states that "Mitrokhin's notes identify PIMEN as 'one of the leaders of the ISKRA group', but his exact relationship with it is unclear." Furthermore, the Andrews/Mitrokhin books agree with sources like Donald Hodges and Matilde Zimmermann on an important point that undercuts the narrative TDS is trying to create: Although all parties (Andrews/Mitrokhin, Hodges and Zimmermann included) agree that Carlos Fonseca was impressed by the Soviet Union when he visited there in 1957 (and even wrote a pamphlet that celebrated his experience), there were significant differences in philosophy and priorities between the Soviets and Cubans. Fonseca soon became a critic of Soviet-style communism and preferred the Cuban approach.
Finally, Hodges and others have noted that Fonseca was expelled from the Nicaraguan Socialist Party (Nicaragua's Soviet-aligned communist party). His political thinking, like the philosophy of other Sandinistas, combined Marxist ideas with a belief in political pluralism and elements of Sandino's anarcho-syndicalism, all of which were heretical from the point of view of Moscow and the KGB.
In short, the relationship between the Soviet Union, Marxism, the Sandinistas and Carlos Fonseca specifically is considerably more complex and nuanced that the simplistic, accusatory and ideologically tendentious interpretation that TDC is trying to force upon this article. TDC's interpretation is so different from the accounts provided by serious scholars that it doesn't belong in this article and should be rejected under Wikipedia's policy of no original research. Moreover, his habitually bellicose style is tiresome and contrary to Wikipedia policies on civility and etiquette. He has been contributing an average of 30 edits per day to the talk page of this article, most of which consist of sniping, insults and threats aimed at other users. Given his long history of abuse including sock puppetry and other violations of Wikipedia policy, there is no reason why the community should to tolerate this. His behavior is disruptive and, if tolerated, will drive away responsible Wikipedia contributors who lack the patience to go to war with him every time they want to challenge his obsessive POV-pushing. -- Sheldon Rampton 06:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The charge of NOR is cute and all, but hardly applies here as I am most certainly not advancing a theory, or stringing together disparate pieces of information to do so. The notion that the FSLN leadership was, in no small part, being unduly influenced from Havana and Moscow is not an opinion that is solely mine and I have gone to great lengths to cite a large number of sources who also believe this to be the case. You should re read the section on WP:NOR so you don’t make this mistake again.
As for the reason that I spend so much time on the talk pages, its because in certain articles a good deal of discussion is needed to break away from the dominant POV of an article. An article like this does not draw upon a wide number of users, and it would appear that the majority have a sympathetic POV towards the Sandinistans. In a larger more heavily edited article, like say Julius Rosenberg, a large number of users with varying POV’s have edited the article and formed something closer to a balanced entry on the subject.
As to your citation from the book regarding the KGB’s recruitment of FSLN members, you did not look at the relevant passages, only sneakily pieced together select passages to reinfoce your argument, and had you cited the contents on page 43 you would have seen that this was not just an operation that was “proposed” but had in fact been implemented.
The following: Andara y Ubede, however, insisted, no doubt correctly, that his men were too poorly armed and trained to launch attacks against the well-defended US bases. Instead, they engaged in guerrilla and intelligence operations against the Somoza regime, non-military American organizations and anti-Castro Cuban refugees. ... has nothing to do with the operations inside the US and was in reference to Ubede’s refusal to launch attacks against the "well-defended US bases" (referring to raids on US business and financial interest in Nicaragua to in Nicaragua from Mexico.)
He later traveled to Moscow for his training in the American sabotage operations, so how in God’s name you could claim that he rejected to do it, and that he was unaware that the KGB was behind it? Your stringing together of entirely disparate sentences which have absolutely nothing to do with each other is either woefully ignorant or an underhanded attempt to use a source to imply something opposite to the conclusions of said reference (and you accuse me of NOR).
This intentional attempt to string together segments of source to make it appear the source is saying something that it clear does not, makes me much less willing to believe you are willing to engage in a good faith discussion of the material.
A bit of background on this BTW, the same time the Soviets were using their FSLN contacts for they were also using agents in Canada for similar missions in the Northern US, like Flathead and Hungry Horse dams. The FSLN infiltration units the Soviets sent to Texas and the south were to reconnoiter and familiarize themselves with the targets, not to act on them. This was to be done in the event of hostilities between the Soviets and the United States, and not as some unprovoked act of aggression. No one is alleging that the FSLN units used in this capacity were there to destroy anything, only that thee were preparing themselves for it when their Moscow paymasters gave the order (kind of like Red Dawn. Most of this was done under the supervision of the GRU, and not the KGB, and as there have been no high level GRU defectors, the true extent of these operations is not known. When asked about these operations former KGB Col. Oleg Gordievsky said "It all rings very true, I personally participated in digging ground in [Stockholm] and putting radio equipment into the ground."
Furthermore Andrew’s use of sources like Zimmermann and Hodges was for background on the individuals mentioned, not to help establish their ties with Moscow, and furthermore, he cites Zimmermann and Hodges exactly once. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
What historians understand, and what I apparently TDC doesn’t understand ….. what are you talking about? Andrew is one of the most well respected cold war intelligence historians around. He is evaluating the strength of the underlying material and of his source, not me. While it may be appropriate to judge the reliability of certain sources, we don’t extend that to judging the reliability of sources' sources. As a well respected historian, we have to rely on Andrew’s judgment on how seriously he investigated and vetted this information.
So, are you really going to say that since this historical work “may be” clouded with bias or second hand material, that it should be excluded? Almost all historic work is clouded with these problems issues and they aren’t made to be nearly as contentious as they are here. Far too many articles are ripe with material from sources who fail any of the above test ( Gladio cough cough), but since they are popular amongst certain groups and often repeated, they are taken seriously.
This is really getting pointless, but here goes. On Fonseca:
Furthermore an agent is described as follows: an individual who agrees to cooperate secretly with an official intelligence representative, and to carry out consciously systematically and secretly his intelligence assignments
This was not from Zimmerman, the only information from Zimmerman was taken to provide some context on who Fonseca was (one paragraph of background) not his relationship with Soviet intelligence.
But more, since your truncated and hobbled together quotes don’t clarify the material at hand.
He could not be more clear on Fonseca’s relationship with both Ubeda and his activities. Are we going to go round and round here, with you distoring material and me correcting you, or are we going to agree on its inclusion in the article (if in a modified form), or does this go to mediation? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
<---------------------------- So what’s the deal here people? Is this over? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 13:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I would like to restore some material that got clobbered during the recent fights; normally, I would just do this, but I see that the article is currently protected, so I would like consensus.
If you examine this diff you can see that we lost three paragraphs near the start of the article that—give or take a few copy edits—seem to me like a good general introduction to the subject. I can't quickly sort out where in the contentious edit history they were removed (or, more likely, removed, re-added, removed again, etc.). Does anyone have any problem with my restoring these paragraphs? Given the protection, I will allow at least 48 hours for objections. - Jmabel | Talk 00:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like the current version is basically TDC's and it looks like in places it is written with evident animus against the Sandinistas. For example, the section Sandinista human rights record gives no context of either an ongoing war or the human rights records historically typical of the country or contemporaneously typical of the region. The Sandinista regime was flawed in this respect, but compared to anything else around it, it was a beacon of light, and groups like Amnesty generally acknowledged that even when they criticized the Sandinistas. - Jmabel | Talk 00:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The Sandinista regime was flawed in this respect, but compared to anything else around it, it was a beacon of light, and groups like Amnesty generally acknowledged that even when they criticized the Sandinistas.
Given the political nature of Amnesty (U.S. and allies=evil, Soviets=? and leftist third world=good), that isn't a very impressive arguement. 65.185.190.240 22:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not an editor here, and not knowledgable about this topic, but I have some observations. The KGB section is at best confusing and poorly written. I am not sure what is being alleged - that the KGB formed the FSLN from nothing, or tried to use an already existing orgaization for its own ends. The final two paragraphs of the section, where the disputants throw references at each other, are not useful. KGB ties to this organization certainly seem relevant to the article. The biggest problems are readibility and making it clear where the information comes from, and including something brief about why this source may be contested.--
MikeThicke 23:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The allegation that the KGB formed the FSLN from nothing is false. The KGB ties to the Sandinista organization before 1979 are irrelevant to the article. -- Magicartpro 09:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This is very much a live issue. Elections are due in Nicaragua this Autumn and altho it is close it is possible that the FSLN will be returned to power. Naturally the USA is seeking to influence these elections and interfering with dire threats from the US ambassador if the FSLN are returned to power. The fact that the USA is still interfering in the internal affairs of Nicaragua now when the USSR is history gives the lie to the idea that it was Soviet influence that it feared in the country. What the USA feared - and still fears - is a negative effect on the profits of US-based fruit multinationals Del Monte and United Fruit(Dole). Doubtless the apologists for US imperialism here will soon find some 'source' showing the influence of Al Qaida on the FLSN and Daniel Ortega having tea with Osama Bin Laden. I know that the page is currently protected but there should be some mention of these coming elections. SmokeyTheFatCat 09:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to rewrite this section for two main reasons:
There is a paragraph that makes true but (in my view) misleading statements:
The Sandinista government also repressed press outlets it deemed too critical of its policies. The most notable examples were the Catholic church's Radio Católica and opposition newspaper La Prensa. La Prensa was especially singled out for abuse. It was routinely censored and shut down, and its editors harrassed by the state security apparatus.
Given that both of these media organs were calling for the overthrow of the government in wartime, it is utterly unsurprising that they were censored. From what I remember from the time, it is more remarkable how long they were tolerated and how far they were allowed to go before they were shut. If we are taking up this topic in this article, then this short paragraph does not do it justice. - Jmabel | Talk 07:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The subject heading is censorship. Shutting down opposition press and radio stations, irrespective of whether such actions are "unsurprising" or not, clearly qualifies as such.
And as an aside, I would note that there are plenty of examples of governments in wartime that do NOT close down opposition press outlets. Last I checked, despite being involved in a war in Iraq, the U.S. government hasn't shut down any Marxist organs. Your rationalization of the censorship, and even more so, your comment that seems to actually laud the Sandanistas for "tolerating" opposition and "allowing it to go on" (!) smacks much more of apologia than an attempt to provide context for the Sandanista campaign of oppression. Ritwingr 07:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Your comparison might be apt if America was a pathetic third world nation and the Marxist "organs" being funded were taking in millions of dollars from a superpower. Do you honestly think that if, say, the KGB had bankrolled the Washington Post that the United States wouldn't have shut down the paper and/or arrested the journalists on the KGB payroll?
The Sandinistas did get some criticism for periodically shutting down La Prensa, so that situation deserves mention. I'm not cool with the word "abuse" in the quote, as it's debatable whether it was abusive to periodically shut down La Prensa for what Ritwingr would surely label treason if an American did it to the American government. -- MarkB2 05:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you think that the British government would have allowed Nazi propaganda mongers to run a daily newspaper in Britain in 1940? Of course not. The FSLN were just as tolerant as Winston Churchill. SmokeyTheCat 15:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In this Daniel Ortega of the FSLN regained the presidency of Nicaragua.
I added this single line to the main article. I very much hope that it won't be deleted as it is obviously relevant. SmokeyTheFatCat 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe someone can also insert some information here about Mr. Ortega's cozy relationship with Tehran. The slant on this article makes him seem like such a cuddly little teddy bear who has been wronged all these years by the big, bad United States. Maybe we can begin to insert some truth here.
The level of detail provided in the paragraph on the hostage situation strikes me as one that needs sourcing, especially since this is narrative that has popped up in the last couple of days. I tagged it. Also, does anyone have the name of the minister whose home it was? 146.243.4.157 20:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I replaced that wording in industrial development with administration, since I think calling the previous elected Sandinista government of 1984-1990 iron fisted is complete POV. - Chris Gilmore
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=FSLN_human_rights_abuses&action=edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front#Sandinista_human_rights_record
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
213.39.190.133 (
talk •
contribs) 12 November 2006.
CIA propaganda does not adhere to NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.126.255.184 ( talk • contribs) 13 November 2006.
I added material to the criticism of the Mitrokhin passage because the archive is passed off as fact, when that is far from clear. The archive is not primary source, and mainstream historians from the American Historical Review have questioned these single-sourced claims. Abe Froman 20:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
My mistake. Comment self-deleted. Stone put to sky 06:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see the "Relationship with the KGB" area cleaned up. As it is, there is little mention of the skepticism with which most of the world views Mitrokhin's material, nor of the many discrepancies which surround the U.S. government's accusations in that regard. As the material is currently presented, it appears that there are only two people in the world who are skeptical about the authenticity of the Mitrokhin material (when in fact it's more like 20,000), and that there are no questions about the veracity or motives of the U.S. government's "evidence". While the passage is couched in terms of "According to", the rhetoric gives center stage to Mitrokhin's assertions -- which many believe are sheer fantasy -- while giving no time whatsoever to the challenges those assetions have met with. For the record, i don't think this is a place where we need to get into a deep investigation regarding the questions surrounding Mitrokhin's material; but there needs to be a much stronger clarification of the considerable questions surrounding the material, as well as the many objections to the U.S. Government's material of the time (many of which originated from within the U.S. government itself). Stone put to sky 06:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The article is misrepresenting the Sandinistas as strictly composed of the Junta that later came to be led by Daniel Ortega. This is wrong. The Sandinistas were composed of several different groups which -- with considerable help from the U.S. -- eventually splintered apart in violence against each other, but have since operated together under the auspices of the political system devised by the original coalition. The article should reflect that, but it doesn't currently do so.
The article should clearly indicate that the first group to operate under the "Sandinista" name was that of Eden Pastora, which predated the FSLN. After the FSLN was formed, they joined with Pastora and turned over military leadership to him. Later, the Sandinistas were joined in their fight by business leaders and moderate politicians who opposed the dictatorship. The article currently gives the false impression that the Sandinistas started with FSLN members, and that this group alone has comprised its core group. This is simply false. Stone put to sky 04:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
If i don't hear anything back on this, then i'll take it as an accession and start to re-work the introduction in a couple of days. Sister-in-law's getting married tomorrow. Stone put to sky 06:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Granted, everything. However, this article is about the "Sandinistas/FSLN"; Pastora's group was the first one known as "Sandinistas" and it was from this group that the FSLN adopted the nomiker. Similarly, the fact that Pastora ascended to the status of "Comander Zero" says a great deal: Zero comes before even "the first". Pastora and his group represent a stage in the evolution of the people's movement that became the "Sandinistas" we think of today.
I have no problem with pointing out that the FSLN eventually came to be the only Sandinistas; but the Sandinistas of the '50's - '70's, the Sandinistas of the early '80's, the Sandinistas of the early '90s, and the Sandinistas of today represent four phases of a single movement, none of which are so clearly defined from their predecessor that we may comfortably say they are distinct. The name "Sandinsta" and the movement it represents has undergone steady and continuous change over these last five decades. It is undeniable that the Sandinistas of today are an entirely different group than the Sandinistas of the early '70's or mid-'80's, and wrong to say that the group got it's start with the FSLN. Stone put to sky 16:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Great! This is all excellent stuff, none of which i myself personally knew! Why in the world isn't this in the article?
This is the *main* article on "the Sandinistas". If you would like to split the FSLN off from it, then i think that would be appropriate. However, we should first build a case for that move here on this page, by introducing substantiated sources for the material that you are implying just above.
I, for one, am very happy to see that someone so informed as yourself about the Sandinista movement is helping to edit this page, now. Since this is the main page for "Sandinistas", where do you think we should start? Stone put to sky 05:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be better to simply name it "The Sandinista Movement" -- or make that last one plural, if you like -- because "ideologies" is a loaded word (considered "Marxist" by most people in the U.S.). Similarly, i think a lengthy explanation here in *this* article must be included to explain the relationship of the FSLN to the greater Sandinista movement. But yeah -- i think that we've hit on a very direct way to obviate a lot of the disagreement on this page. Stone put to sky 06:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a separate article for the FRS, to begin with? -- Soman 08:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the FRS should also have its own page.
I don't have a problem developing separate pages, but i think we would best be served using this process:
That would save us a lot of back-and-forth grief, i think. If we split the pages to begin with and then start editing them separately, i think a lot of information will get reduplicated unecessarily, there's a much greater chance of either article getting uncomfortably skewed towards a particular political viewpoint, and we're likely to see the total editing force that's currently present split up into different groups that rarely communicate.
So i'd rather see us work here first and then do the split, but that's just my opinion. Stone put to sky 13:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Why laugh? Capitalism is absolutely a loaded word! I am of the firm opinion that Adam Smith is spinning in his grave at the way it's currently being abused and misused by the "experts" of the U.S. ;-)
Seriously, though: are you suggesting that the FRS didn't have political goals, and wasn't created as a means to engender or enforce certain political forms? I find that hard to believe, and as far as i'm concerned that's all that's needed for something to qualify as "political"; but i agree that my wording above was rather imprecise.
I'm starting a new section below, where we can explore possibilities for a new structure to this article. Stone put to sky 08:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we should start off with a discussion of what "Sandinista" means and how it's used within Nicaragua and other Central American countries. After first establishing a basic overview of the word "Sandinista" and how it's used natively, we will be able to get a better idea of where the article should go. Do folks agree with me on this? Stone put to sky 08:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Something like "The name 'Sandinista' refers to a...existing...still active...social movement that has its roots in the ideas of Augusto Sandino....Central America...socialism...catholic church...local natives...It includes a broad range of organizations, both formal and informal (see list below)....broad socialist principles....The name "Sandinista" is often wrongly associated...exclusively...with the FSLN, who represent only one....and is currently....
I think y'all get the idea. Next, perhaps followed by a structure something like this:
II From Sandino to WWII III The Post-WWII Era A) 1950 - 1970 B) 1970 - 1990 C) 1990 - Present IV Groups and Movements Using the Name 'Sandinista' V Social Change and the Sandinistas: Achievements and Undertakings VI Military and Political Action Under the Name 'Sandinista'
It would then be a much easier thing to separate out the specifically FSLN, FRS, etc stuff, and those articles could simply make direct reference to the fundamental Sandinista article (which is where all traffic searching for "Sandinista" should be first directed). Comments? Stone put to sky 09:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The first part is History
I Sandino and the EDSN II The Post-Sandino Era A) 1934 - 1937 : The annihilation of Sandino's movement B) 1937 - 1950 : Sandinism vs Somocism C) 1950 - 1970 : Formation of the new Sandinistas; FRS, MNN, FSLN, etc. D) 1970 - 1979 : The struggle against Somoza; three tendencies of the FSLN + MPU, FER, etc. E) 1979 - 1990 : Sandinistas in the Government; reunification of the Sandinistas F) 1990 - 2000 : Sandinistas in opposition; rearmed Sandinista groups, FUAC, FROC + the dissidents in the MRS G) 2000 - 2005 : Second reunification of the Sandinistas; the Convergence H) 2005 - Present : The internal struggle and the Sandinistas back in Government
Then there is the Sandinista Ideology and its influence in the Nicaraguan society
III The Sandinista Ideology A) Sandino's ideological roots B) The legacy of Sandino C) Sandino in the struggle against Somoza D) FSLN's historical program E) Sandinism vs. Socialism F) Today's Sandinistas IV Social Change and the Sandinistas: Achievements and Undertakings
And last, a list of Sandinista groups and movements
V List of Groups and Movements Using the Name 'Sandinista'/ with a Sandinista Ideology A) Extinct B) Active
What do you think? -- Magicart pro 17:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Good structure. I like it. Just do the rough draft in a sandbox so editors don't get the wrong idea when content disappears/reappears. Abe Froman 17:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I like it, too, but have some small adjustments i'd suggest.
Before i do that, though, let me preface what i'm about to say by admitting that i really have no qualifications to add much to a subject on which you are obviously quite knowledgable. With that in mind, i'm approaching what we're talking about more as an opportunity for me to learn much more about this subject while offering what i hope is some constructive advice to aid in the aims and utility of the article.
Now in regards to your suggestions, i agree with most of them; but i do worry that Sections II and III will become too detailed. Since we're shooting for an encyclopedic treatment, we should just give broad outlines with references to more detailed sources that the reader can follow up if they care to. My general aim for any article is that it can be easily broken up into large sections, and that the overviews (i.e. -- Section I and II) shouldn't take longer than five or ten minutes to get through on a quick read.
I like what you've done with the current "Sandinista Ideology" and would love to include most of it, but the detail you've provided there is frightening even for someone like me, who is interested in this subject. As i understand things, this 'pedia isn't here to educate people on the details of Sandinism, but only to give a broad outline that will help us understand what its relevance is to the Sandinistas, its broader influences on the movements which use that name, and how this all fits into the history of the region and of the greater American hemisphere.
On that basis, i'd suggest something like this:
I Overview of the term "Sandinista" II History A) 1934 - 1950 : Sandinism vs Somocism B) 1950 - 1970 : Formation of the new Sandinistas: FRS, MNN, FSLN, etc. C) 1970 - 1979 : The struggle against Somoza D) 1979 - 1990 : Sandinistas in the Government E) 1990 - Present : Sandinistas in Opposition, Convergence, and Debate III The Sandinista Ideology A) Sandino's ideological roots and Legacy B) Sandino in the struggle against Somoza C) FSLN's historical program D) Sandinism vs. Socialism E) Today's Sandinistas IV Social Change and the Sandinistas: Achievements and Undertakings V List of Groups and Movements Using the Name 'Sandinista'/ with a Sandinista Ideology A) Active B) Extinct
What exactly is the "EDSN", and what relationship does it have to Sandino and the Sandinistas? Because i don't know the answer to that question, i can't really comment on it.
As it is, though, what i've suggested are pretty moderate changes, i think, and preserve the bulk of your suggested structure. The biggest challenges will be for us to keep the sub-sections in II and III from getting too dense, or growing too large.
Finally, there will definitely be people who demand a section outlining what sort of relationship Sandinista groups have had to Communism, the Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. So it's probably best to start worrying about that now rather than putting it off 'til later. Stone put to sky 17:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Why the strikeout? I totally agree that we need to treat the subject of what Sandino and his (original) movement advocated. There's no problem from me on that, and i'd imagined that would come out naturally in the "Sandino vs Somocism" portion. I can't imagine that we'd be able to describe the differences between those two powers without also touching on the huge differences in their political and social goals. Stone put to sky 09:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
In the section titled "The Split of the FSLN" is the following sentence: "On 10 January 1978, Pedro Joaquín Chamorro Cardenal, the popular editor of the opposition newspaper La Prensa and leader of the 'Democratic Union of Liberation' (Unión Democrática de Liberación - UDEL), the bourgeois opposition, was assassinated." First of all - "the bourgeois opposition"? What is that? The article does mention that in addition to the FSLN there was a right-wing opposition to the Somoza gov't, so maybe that's what this sentence is referring to; but it should be much clearer IMO. Secondly, editorial use of Marxist/Marxian terms is PoV and inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.87.187.201 ( talk) 03:41, 16 December, 2006 (UTC)
"Bourgeois" in itself is not an inherently marxist term. Even so, a term that is id'd by some as "marxist" is not inherently biased.
Secondly -- i do accept that the use of the phrase "the bourgeois opposition" in this context is unacceptably biased. The death or assassination of an individual is not meaningful only in relation to their perceived political outlook, and the use of the "bourgeois" qualifier here implies that. I support removal of "the bourgeois opposition". Similarly, i do not support identifying Chamorro as strictly "right wing" unless there is some sort of clearly articulated philosophical or poltical statement by Chamorro himself that identifies him in such a manner. Stone put to sky 20:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
While I was looking over the article, I saw that an "Oscar Antonio Sanchez" had been added to the list of prominent Sandinistas. I don't claim to be familiar with the entire FSLN pantheon, but I'd never heard of him before. Checking the history, I found that he was added by an IP on November 6. He was described as being a colonel, but there were higher-ranking Sandinistas, like Joaquin Cuadra... who I realized wasn't on the list. So I've removed "Sanchez," and added Cuadra. If someone has information about this Sanchez being a major Sandinista, they can put him back in.
I also removed the bit about Tomas Borge's GPP being "explicitly Maoist." While it advocated a Maoist strategy, I don't see it as following Maoist programs in a wider sense.
There are a lot of other things I don't like about the article, but I'll have to deal with them later. -- Groggy Dice T| C 09:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This sort of agitprop will not be tolerated. Either cite well-respected sources or stop trashing this page. Since none of the propaganda in that section can be verified by actual sources, it will be removed. For facts on human rights in Nicaragua refer to: http://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/Nica81eng/TOC.htm Jacob Peters
Why is there no mention of the anti-semitic policies of the Sandinistas? Prezen 21:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Er, because there weren't any? SmokeyTheCat 14:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the 'KGB' section towards the bottom of the article. Even if it is true - which I doubt - it is hardly the most important aspect of the FSLN. SmokeyTheCat 14:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could say that it's incredible that an article this poorly written, and containing such flagrant examples of anti-American and pro-Sandinista POV and weasel words could remain virtually intact for so long, but unfortunately it's not. Such is the nature of Wikipedia, which is why it should generally not be taken seriously by anyone doing research on any topic more substantial than random pop culture references.
The article reads like a KGB propaganda leaflet, making the Sandinistas out to be saints while demonizing all of their enemies. Will someone who is NOT a Sandinista--and who, preferably has a decent understanding of English grammar--please go through this article and fix it so that it bears some semblance of neutrality, and thus becomes actually useful to someone looking for information about this period in Nicaraguan history? I would do it myself, but the article is too much of a mess for one person to clean up, and frankly I've got more important things to do.-- Antodav 68.52.242.229 19:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't see what Antodav means. He gives no examples. The article seems reasonable to me. SmokeyTheCat 09:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking at this article side by side with the Wikipedia article on the Contras tells me all I need to know. This whole project is a joke and a disgrace. You people don't even try and hide your ridiculous leftist biases. This whole article is COMPLETE GARBAGE!!! How about putting in some TRUTH about Daniel Ortega . . . just to start? How about including information about what he is CURRENTLY DOING? Are his visits to Tehran of NO INTEREST to anyone?
I know I might be beating a dead horse here, but I am going to remove the on several grounds. First, material from Andrew is used in other articles, such as Salvador Allende without similar caveats on the source. Secondly, the caveats from Getty and Raman are generalized and not specific to accusations made against the FSLN. Lastly, the caveats appear, nearly verbatim in the parent article.
As such, I am going to remove the caveats. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
TDC, You try this every few months. It is tiresome. I replaced the material for the following reasons:
Cheers. Abe Froman 22:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I added this section. It seems important enough to be worthy of inclusion. SmokeyTheCat 09:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I have an issue with the source that characterizes the El Salvador groups as terrorists. I would not call it reliable.-- Atavi 14:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia urges extreme caution when using words like "terrorist" and "freedom fighter." It's best to avoid them altogether, stick to verifiable facts, and let readers make their own judgments. If we are going to use them, we need to avoid using weasel words like "some people accuse them" and specifically say who makes the accusation. Unfortunately, it seems like there's always someone ready to call someone else a terrorist... Notmyrealname 23:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
"It has been alleged that the Sandinistas were supporting militant groups in El Salvador using "terrorist tactics". [10] The Sandinistas have also been accused of practising terror against its Indian population, of carrying out approximately 8,000 political executions within three years of the revolution, and as well as numerous other repressions. [11]"
Yes, right-wing sources. That does not necessarily exclude them, NPOV requires the views of both sides. They both list references. Ultramarine 10:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
That is certainly one point of view, but it is not the way to go about things on Wikipedia. If you cite a source, you have to represent what it says. The IACHR report (you post two links, but the second one is to the table of contents for the same report) discusses dozens of killings (not 8,000) and makes the conclusions that I quoted above. The Time Magazine article is a statement from one witness testifying to a human rights group. It's fine to cite it, but it needs to be described properly. Notmyrealname 18:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, I couldn't find any references, or an author for the Time magazine article you have cited - do you know where I could find these? Pexise 19:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Now for a megasource. It is Statistics of Democide, R.J. Rummel, 1997. The book lists numerous sources regarding democide in all nations and what their estimates for numbers killed are. The sources and numbers for Nicaragua under the Sandinistas can be found here: [23]. The full references are here: [24] Even if you dislike Rummel's own estimate, 5,000 dead due to Sandinista democide (and 8,000 political prisoners on average each year), which he makes using these sources, then the sources he list are still valid on their own. As a summary, I will list all my current sources (again, these list sources on their own).
From wikipedia article on R. J. Rummel: "Most estimates of democide are uncertain and scholars often give widely different estimates." Pexise 19:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I still can't find any of the sources or the author of the Time article - could you please show me one of the refernces and the name of the author? Pexise 19:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
So as a start, I propose just creating a section, called Human rights violations, and initially stating: "The Sandinistas has been accused of human rights violations such as mass executions, political prisoners, and restricting freedom of expression and association. New Regime, Old Methods (January 24, 1983), TIME. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, Roxana Chahin, Nicaragua's killing fields, (April 29, 1991), National Review. The Sandinista War on Human Righs (July 19, 1983), Heritage Foundation. Report on the Situation of Human Rights in the Repulic of Nicaragua (1981), Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. Report on the Situation of Human Rights of a Segment of the Nicaraguan Population of Miskito Origin (1983), Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. R.J. Rummel, Statistics of Democide (1997) Table References" This can later be expanded. Thoughts? Ultramarine 15:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The issue of human rights during the 1980s in Nicaragua should be treated with great care. It is impossible to deal with the issue without taking account of the circumstances and context in which events took place. It is very important to consider that a counter-revolutionary war was being fought against the government in this period (by the US-backed Contras) and that part of the government response to the situation of conflict was to enact a state of emergency, which included the derogation of certain human rights.
Independent organisations have also drawn attention to the politicisation of the issue of human rights at this time, stating that human rights was a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter commented that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration ... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities." [1]
The 1987 report published by UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as Progressio), "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua", [2] also discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas have produced lengthy critiques of the Amnesty International and Americas Watch reports. They have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war."
TIME magazine in 1983 published allegations of human rights violations in an article which stated that "According to Nicaragua's Permanent Commission on Human Rights, the regime detains several hundred people a month; about half of them are eventually released, but the rest simply disappear." TIME also interviewed a former deputy chief of Nicaraguan military counterintelligence, who stated that he had fled Nicaragua after being ordered to eliminate 800 Miskito prisoners and make it look like as if they had died in combat. [3]
Also using the Permanent Commission on Human Rights as one of its sources, the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think thank, in a 1983 report alleged various human rights violations, including censorship, creating a neighborhood system which encouraged spying and reporting by neighbors, torture by state security forces, thousands of political prisoners, assassinations both inside and outside Nicaragua, and that a former Sandinista Intelligence officer has stated that 5,000 were killed in the early months of Sandinsta rule. [4]
The CIIR was critical of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, citing a tendency to immediately publish accusations against the government without first establishing a factual basis for the allegations. The CIIR report also questioned the independence of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, pointing out that it received funds from the National Endowment for Democracy, an organization funded by the US government, and that these funds were administrated by Prodemca, a US-based organization which later published full-page advertisements in the Washington Post and New York Times supporting military aid to the Contras.
Among the accusations in the Heritage Foundation report are lengthy references to alleged policies of religious persecution. The ICCHRLA reported that: "From time to time the current U.S. administration, and private organizations sympathetic to it, have made serious and extensive allegations of religious persecution in Nicaragua. Colleague churches in the United States undertook onsite investigation of these charges in 1984. In their report, the delegation organized by the Division of Overseas Ministries of the National Council of Churches of Christ in the United States concluded that there is 'no basis for the charge of systematic religious persecution'. The delegation 'considers this issue to be a device being used to justify aggressive opposition to the present Nicaraguan government.'" [5]
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished." [6] The Commission also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [7]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, "disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property. [8]
The CIIR report refers to estimates made by Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300". Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused. Pexise 17:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's discuss this now as I've numbered the points above. And please try and be more constructive about this, I'm finding it very difficult to assume good faith as you are being quite petty and spiteful.
(1.) This section is not about the Contras, it is about allegations of human rights violations by the Sandinistas. It is not the place to discuss the motivations of the Contras.
(2.) I said some pro-Sandinista sources, or examples of propaganda from independent sources. You keep using far-right wing American sources.
(3.) As I said before, the structure is not argument/counter argument, it is thus: "first of all drawing attention to the controversies in play, then presenting controversial sources and criticisms and finally presenting less controversial, credible sources". This is a perfectly adequate structure following WP:AVOID guidelines. Pexise 19:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
A and b are POV violations in itself since they only present one view. Repeating a single source numerous times gives it undue weight and the structure makes it looke like all the criticisms have been disproved, when this source is just one among many. Ultramarine 21:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the structure, there are some different ways to do this. 1. The material from each source in a single paragraph. There is nothing in WP:AVOID regarding this, it only talks about not having all the criticisms separated from the rest of the article. 2. Separate sections for Numbers killed, Freedom of expression, Torture, Propaganda, etc. Then we can cite what each source has to say in each section. Either one is acceptable for me. Ultramarine 21:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the IACHR used the Comision Permanente de Derechos Humanos (CPDH) during the Somoza dictatorship, but you must understand that organisations change - they are not one homogeneous entity. After the revolution there were many changes in Nicaragua, and the leadership of the CPDH also changed:
"The CPDH, founded in 1977, played an important part in denouncing the crimes of the Somoza dictatorship. Founding members represented a broad spectrum of opposition to the regime, from Conservatives to those identified with the Sandinistas. Jose Estéban González, then coordinator of the organization, was also Secretary General of the Social Christian Party.
In its October 1981 report on human rights in Nicaragua, Pax Christi International noted that "the fall of the dictatorship brought about many changes within the commission's direction, as its members who were directly committed to the revolution did not agree with the policy line of Jose Estéban Gonzalez." The latter's Social Christian Party was becoming "a catalyst of the opposition," according to Pax Christi, and González was giving grossly exaggerated reports on the number of political prisoners (a tradition his successors have honored).
In January 1982, González was accused of collaborating with the contras, left the country and was sentenced in absentia. Laverty adds: "He has opened up a human rights organization in Belgium called the Nicaraguan Committee on Human Rights and distributes CPDH material widely throughout Europe."
González's successor as CPDH coordinator was Marta Patricia Baltodano who, Laverty notes, "is now working as director of the contra human rights organization called the Nicaraguan Association of Human Rights (ANPDH)." (See January envío for an analysis of the ANPDH.) On the other hand, many founding members of the CPDH left the organization in 1979 to take up significant posts with the new government."
What is more, this was not my only evidence for the unreliability of the Heritage Foundation - also the fact that it was a government think tank for the Reagan Admin during a period when the US was financing a counter-insurgency against the Nica Govt - harldly trustworthy. I also have INDEPENDENT, INTERNATIONAL sources which point out that accusations of religious persecution were a key part of the Reagan propaganda, and the HF report goes at length to accuse the Nica govt of religious persecution. I think this all adds up to a pretty strong case. Pexise 08:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose the following structure:
Although if we want to be really comprehensive, a section about the Miskito indians might be appropriate. Pexise 08:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC))
Again, the statistcs can be found from line 2477 and onwards. [41] Ultramarine 15:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Frontpage Magazine is funded by right-wing political groups and is an activist political organization; the assertions in question are made in an editorial; and the material is clearly outside the Historian's area of expertise (a canadian slav specialist in U.S.-Canadian relations writing on Latin America? Can this guy even speak spanish?).
The MIPT terrorism page has been disallowed on at least one page, Jewish Defense League, as not conforming to WP:RS. I'm not saying that it can't be allowed here -- nor am i saying that the material presented there cannot be used -- but rather that it must be used judiciously and sparingly, and not as the basis for lengthy, off-topic commentary. Others, however, might object to it.
A sentence or two stating that the activities of the FMLN were considerd terrorism by the United States is fine; it might be accompanied by a sentence or two from the ICJ ruling in Nicaragua v. United States, where the ICJ ruled that U.S. claims against the Nicaraguan government vis a vis El Salvador are clearly specious and without merit would be, too. Stone put to sky 18:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have sources on Sandinista human rights violations against the east coast Miskito Indians? That would be a useful addition to this section.
Democide seems to be a neologism coined by one scholar and not picked up by anyone else. It's one thing to cite the guy, but there's no reason to use a made-up word that nobody understands. Notmyrealname 16:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
That seems to be a fairly substantial reliance on these sources. The rest of the sources he uses are a Hawaiian local newspaper, TIME articles and Wall St Journal. These may also use PCHR and State Dept, I can't check because they aren't online. Pexise 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The following text is completely unsourced. If any sources can be found, then that sourced material can be added back.
"Immediately after the Sandinistas gained power they began implementing agrarian reforms. Initial measures involved appropriating all Somoza owned land (apx. 20% of the arable land in Nicaragua) and nationalizing banking institutions giving the government control of credit. During their ten year duration in power their policies and reforms shifted and can be categorized in six different stages: agrarian reform from 1979-1981; recognition of the peasants in 1981; agrarian reform 1981-1982; acceleration and deceleration 1982-1984; prioritization of peasant in 1985; and changes in expropriation from 1986-1989
Initially the Sandinistas plan involved restructuring the country side. Their policies were geared to achieving four main goals: to recover 1978 production; maintain national unity; avoid conflict with the United States; and begin “transition structure” for the introduction to socialist methods of production. To attain these goals, the government implemented policies to promote and revive the Nicaraguan agrarian export economy through the establishment of state farms. The government recognized this as the most efficient means of creating a transition to socialism while avoiding conflict with the United States. The government guaranteed agricultural export growers credit (at negative interest rates). They also guaranteed profitable (although in practice this was not the case, such as coffee) export prices at the government’s expense (should international market prices drop). Rural labourers received a 30% increase in minimum wages. Consumer prices were kept low via cheap food policies and access to subsidized goods from state farms. Employment increased and the work day was shortened. In addressing peasant interests the government took three measures. First, in the spring of 1980 the government expropriated farms seized by the ATC (Farm workers Association). Secondly, they extended low interest credit to small producers and co-operatives. Thirdly, land rents were reduced by 85%. The resulting inflation due to the increased availability of currency without the corresponding increase in product meant that many peasants were unable to repay their loans. The cheap food policies also hurt many peasant food producers. Peasant support of the Sandinistas declined as they began aligning themselves with the conservative UPANIC (Nicaraguan Union Of Agricultural Productivity).
In 1981 there was a shift in agrarian policy. In August of 1981 the government discarded its credit programs. A few months prior, in March, 1981 the “Law of Forced Rents” was instituted. It required that all idle land be rented at legally established low rent rates. This was a response to the increase in demand for land by providing greater access to good quality low rent land. The second measure was the creation of UNAG (National Union of Farmers and Ranchers). It was an arm of the Sandinista government where the peasant farmers could re-align themselves and voice their concerns.
At this point there were three streams of opinion regarding the agrarian reform. Some favored collectivization via state farms, others favored allowing peasant choice in the matter, and others rejected the gradualist actions of the agrarian reform. In 1981, the institution of the Agrarian Reform Law and the Law of Cooperatives were introduced in August. These would maintain state collectivization but would not isolate it as the only path to socialist agricultural development. At the same time a voluntary gradualist policy was initiated while prioritizing both the cooperatives and ownership. Distribution of state resources such as land and credit would favor productive cooperatives. Distribution to individuals favored injured veterans and families with members that had been killed in the war or tortured by Somoza’s security forces. Additionally the government retrenched its former policies. Greater focus was placed on successful cooperatives. Credit policies were more discriminative favoring the most successful cooperatives. In the fall of 1982 these measures were institutionalized with the Programa Nacionale de Desarollo Cooperativo (National Cooperative Development Program). This involved an increased replacement of credit with government established producer prices to increase staple food production. Consumer prices were pushed down by consumer subsidies and price controls.
From the fall of 1982-1984 the Nicaraguan agrarian policies were influenced by the increase in counterrevolutionary activity and many of the governments policies were geared at gaining peasant support. This period of acceleration and deceleration refers to the increased preference in giving land titles to individuals as opposed to cooperatives. From 1979-1982, 952.82 square kilometres in new land titles was redistributed to individuals whereas in 1984 it increased tenfold to 9802.26 km². This period is also characterized by an increase in farming subsidies, producer prices and expansion of technical and training programs.
In 1985 the Sandinistas priority shifted due to an impending economic crisis. This phase is called the prioritization of the peasants. Land was distributed to individuals at a rate of 300% more than the prior six year period. Share croppers and peasants were also given titles to their land. The policy regarding the formation of the cooperatives relaxed allowing for greater diversity. With regards to macroeconomic policies the government was again emphasizing production. They increased producer prices, cut food imports, decreased credit to small and medium producers, cut consumer subsidies and prioritized production inputs for government investment.
After 1986 the agrarian policy experienced changes in expropriation, beginning January 1986. The policy favored limitations on expropriation and redistribution. They removed the bottom acreage limit for land expropriation; expropriated for public use or social interest; no longer compensated expropriation of idle land; allowed for the eligibility of landless peasants as recipients of redistributed land; and created a land bank established from all idle and abandoned lands.
In 1989 the agrarian reform was declared complete by Minister of agriculture, Jaime Wheelock. At this time, state farms constituted 11.7% of arable land; large capitalist land ownership, 6.4%; medium-sized capitalist producers, 9.0%; cooperatives, 13.8%; and peasant production 48.7%."
The report you were quoting, with 170 cadavers found in mass graves is about Guatemala. The Nicaragua section is the following page. Pexise 12:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
"In a 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights there are details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contianed six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, there is no indication that these executions were part of government policy." [46]
That is inocrrect, there is no such mention of the contras, or at least not equal weight, in the source. In contrast,
"According to the information supplied to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, between January 14 and 15, 1992, seven common graves were discovered in El Bijagua district, Camoapa jurisdiction, department of Boaco. They contained the bodies of 75 people. The investigations conducted by human rights organizations found that they were the bodies of peasant farmers from the area who were murdered in November 1984, after being "recruited" by elements of State Security who pretended to be members of the Nicaraguan Resistance. They were taken to the site where the graves were discovered supposedly to receive military training. According to the reports received. The current Chief of the National Police, Commandant René Vivas Lugo, was Deputy Secretary of the Interior at the time these events occurred."
"The Inter-American Commission was also told that in May, a common grave containing the six corpses of an entire family were discovered in the town of Quininowas, Department of Jinotega. Human rights groups investigated and found that the killings were allegedly committed by members of the Ligero Cazador Battalion of the Sandinista People's Army, who invaded that town on February 7, 1985."
"By December 1992, human rights groups had received 72 reports of common graves and had investigated 13 of those reports. While the majority of those graves seem to contain the remains of individuals summarily executed by members of the Sandinista People's Army, some contain the remains of persons executed by members of the Nicaraguan Resistance." [47]
See [48]. Conservative sources are not excluded automatically, see NPOV. Explain please. Ultramarine 13:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
User:TDC, a well known and frequently -blocked [50] reverter on this page, continues to remove the caveats given to the Mitrokhin Archive. I find this improper for two reasons:
TDC claims Mitrokhin's material is cited, but look closely. The cites refer back to the Mitrokhin archive itself. This is circular verification. I believe removing the caveats given to the Mitrokhin material is tendentious at best, POV at worst.
Passage TDC removes:
Mitrokhin's claims were based on notes allegedly taken from the Former Soviet Union. Historian J. Arch Getty of the UCLA in the American Historical Review (106:2, April 2001): found Mitrokhin's material to be “fascinating," but he also questioned plausibility that Mitrokhin could have smuggled and transcribed thousands of KGB documents, undetected, over 30 years. Former Indian counter-terrorism chief Bahukutumbi Raman also questions both the validity of the material as well as the conclusions drawn from them. [52] Raman points out that Mitrokhin did not bring either the original documents or photocopies. Instead, he brought handwritten/typed notes of the contents of the documents.
I believe the caveats should be reinstated. Abe Froman 16:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
-Left indenting- I think the book qualifies as a reliable source in that it reports the material provided by Mitrokhin. That doesn't mean that the claims made in the book are reliable. Thus, if they are to be included, they need to be qualified. If a psychologist writes a scholarly book collecting stories of people who claim to be abducted by UFOs, that doesn't mean that you can cite the content as evidence of alien abductions (an extreme example, but hopefully you see the distinction). Notmyrealname 17:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Reliability of the Mitrokhin material was vetted by Andrew the author. There is a difference as to what constitues a WP:RS and what you may deem as "reliable". Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Why do you do this all the time, TDC? Mitrokhin is one source, and even then you extrapolate wildly from what he alleges. Mitrokhin maintained the DGI was primarily involved in Nicaragua, and just because the KGB had a bunch of agents in the FSLN that doesn't mean they were a pathetic appendage of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union, as you well know, had a bunch of agents in the US government in 1930s and 1940s: does that mean that Washington was being run from Moscow?
In addition, Mitrokhin himself states that agents, in their reports filed to HQ, would frequently exaggerate the amount of influence they had over a particular person. I think you need to throttle back a little to get a better perspective. MarkB2 02:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give a proper reference (book and page number) about the Carlos Fonseca/NORAD accusation? I can't seem to find it in the sources listed (and as cited above, Andrew seems to think the most notable Sandinista action against a US target was the attempted kidnapping of an ambassador). Notmyrealname 17:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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Some comments and observations:
After a Cuban reorganization of the FSLN structure and tactics in the 1970s, it began to attract significant support from the country's increasingly politicised peasantry
1) Ironically, we can't give Cuba or the Sandinistas the credit for the increased support among the peasentry.
The Christian Democracy movement was as its height in Latin America. In Nicaragua, the Social Christian Party (PSC), had many followers on the countryside. They were supporters of the establishment of cooperatives, labor unions and opposing the classical liberalism and capitalism.
The Christian Democracy movement gained more and more supporters, even in the universities, where the FSLN traditionally recruited their members. Fonseca criticised the Christian Democracy's demagogy and stated the that the Marxism was the idelogical core of the Sandinismo.
2) The reorganization, and subsequent fragmention of the FSLN.
With a increasing support of the Christian Democracy movement and the failure of the foco theory in Bocay (1963) and Pancasán (1967), the Sandinista leadership put emphasis on the cult of "The New Man", "El Hombre Nuevo".
A true Sandinista had to undergo a "purification ceremony" known as "La Montaña" ("The Mountain"). "La Montaña" was the place where the guerilla was going to arise. "La Montaña" was seen as a process, a rebirth of the person both politically and of social awareness. "El Hombre Nuevo" was going to be made in "La Montaña" - the mountains of Nicaragua, the home of the Sandinista guerilla.
This emphasis on "La Montaña" was going to contribute on the fragmentation of the FSLN.
A new generation of Sandinista activists had grown strong in the cities. This tendency was reinforced by the victory of the Revolutionary Students Front (FER) in the Student Union elections Managua in the late 60's. These new Sandinistas had no official connection with the Sandinista leadership but identified themselves with the FSLN.
In 1974 the FSLN decided to send all new activists in the urban areas to the mountains.
The new activists were politically active in the cities and not very fond of the idea of moving into the mountains. In their point of view, the guerilla in the mountains were more concerned on trying to survive than on actually winning the war against Somoza. This resistance from the Sandinista activists in the city was reinforced by Jaime Wheelock book "Imperialismo y Dictadura" (Imperialism and Dictatorship), an historic analysis of the class struggle and the transformation of the economical structures in Nicaragua.
Wheelock came to the conclusion that due to the industrial expansion in the country in the recent years, a real working class has arose in Nicaragua. And since the historical antagonism has been between the working class and the traditional oligarchy, it was FSLN's duty to build up the revolution with the workers at the forefront.
FSLN's immediate reaction was to ban Wheelock and other leading proletarios. And with that, the Sandinistas split in two factions or "tendencias".
1) The Proletarian Tendency (Proletarios), led by Jaime Wheelock, Luis Carrión and Roberto Huembes that sought to organise urban workers.
2) The GPP, Guerra Popular Prolongada (Prolonged Popular War) faction that promoted "La mística revolucionaria", the revolutionary idealism and devotion towards "La Montaña" and the edification of the new man, "el hombre nuevo". The GPP faction was rural-based and sought long-term "silent accumulation of forces" within the country's large peasant population, which it saw as the main social base for the revolution.
The breaking-up was not an isolated situation that affected only the Nicaraguan progressive forces. It was common phenomenon in whole Latin America mainly due to the fall of the socialistic regime in Chile and the failure of the foco theory.
The foco theory was a concept developed by the Cuban revolutionary leaders Castro and Guevara. The basis of the idea is that it is not necessary to wait until the objective conditions are right before commencing an insurgency. Foco theory argues that a small group of armed insurgents can act as the focal point for discontents and thereby create the conditions for opposition. Guevara's subsequent campaign in Bolivia failed to substantiate the theory, and its successful application remains unique to the Cuban revolution.
Carlos Fonseca returned to Nicaragua in November 1975 from his exile in Cuba in an attempt to mediate between these two factions. He was killed by the National Guard one year later in the Zinica region in Matagalpa, Nicaragua. His body was mutilated and his hands send to Managua for a proper identification.
After Fonseca's death there were several unsuccessful attempts to reunite the two factions of the FSLN. In 1976 with a third faction came into scene led by the brothers Daniel and Humberto Ortega. The "terceristas" (the third way) as they called themselves, was ideologically eclectic, favouring a more rapid insurrectional strategy in alliance with diverse sectors of the country, including business owners, churches, students, the middle class, unemployed youth and the inhabitants of shantytowns. In the practice, this was the "winning strategy" that conducted the FSLN to the victory in 1979.
The terceristas also helped attract popular and international support by organising a group of prominent Nicaraguan professionals, business leaders, and clergymen (known as Grupo de los Doce, "the Twelve"), who called for Somoza's removal and sought to organise a provisional government from Costa Rica.
On January 10, 1978, Pedro Joaquín Chamorro, editor of the anti-Somoza newspaper La Prensa, was assassinated by the National Guard. It sparked a broad uprising against the regime. The Sandinistas led a combination of general strikes, urban uprisings and rural guerrilla attacks. The United States discontinued the military aid to the Somoza regime.
A few months later the opposition merged into the Broad Opposition Front (FAO), integrated by the liberal Nicaraguan Democratical Movement (MDN), the conservative Democratic Liberation Union (UDEL) and the Twelve, the Sandinistas spokesmen.
In August 1978 a group of terceristas disguised as members of Somoza's National Guard stormed the National Palace and took as hostages several members of the Nicaraguan Congress, which was in session at the time of the attack, and Somoza's half brother, José Somoza. The assault of the National Palace was led by Edén Pastora.
After a few days of negotiations the government capitulated to the insurgents demands; freeing of political prisoners, publication in the press and radio broadcasts of FSLN's political communiqué and a $500,000 ransom. The guerrillas, as well as the released prisioners, were flown to exile in Panamá. The streets were full of cheering people on their trip to Las Mercedes airport in Managua for their flight out of the country.
Due to the actual situation in the country, the United States initiated negotiations with Somoza and the FAO. The only proposal in the agenda was that Somoza had to hand the goverment over to a junta with representants from both the National Guard and Somoza's Liberal Party. FSLN considered it to be inacceptable and with that the Twelve broke-up from the FAO and organized the National Patriotic Front (FPN) as an alternative to FAO.
The three factions of the FSLN unified on January 1979. The leadership of the unified FSLN was composed by nine members, three members from each faction.
Somoza refused to negotiate with the oppposition. That position affected FAO - the right-wing opposition, that in contrast to the FPN didn't have any army, and whose power in the future depended on a political solution of the conflict.
The FSLN and the FPN launched a final offensive on June 1979. In a desperate movement, Somoza ordered the aerial bombardment of Nicaraguan cities, killing thousands of civilians and increasing the people's rage towards the regime.
Somoza fled the country on July 17. Following his resignation, Francisco Urcuyo Maliaños was Acting President of Nicaragua for a single day in 1979. Upon taking office, he announced his intention to serve out the remainder of Somoza's term, in violation of an agreement reached some weeks earlier between the government and the Sandinista rebel forces. This announcement provoked a strong reaction from the Sandinistas, other Latin American states, and the Carter Administration in the U.S. Recognizing the untenability of his situation, Urcuyo fled to Guatemala on July 18.
Although the Sandinistas didn't enter Managua and officialy assumed the power until two days later, the 19th July of 1979 is considered to be the official day of the liberation of Nicaragua from the Somoza regime.
-- Magicartpro 19:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
This part of the article becomes a bit repetitive since the break-up of the FSLN is explained in the History section. Some passages from the Sandinista Ideologies main article can be featured here.
-- Magicartpro 19:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
According to the guidelines on Wikipedia:Disputed statement
The material is not unlieky (as you have yet to provide a source challenging it) and a well known and notable reference has most certainly been provided
It has been verified as per the Wikipedia guidelines on Wikipedia:Verifiability which I will quote:
Well, we are all entitle to our opinions on cetain users, but two other users, Jmable and Viajero have looked over the material in question, see above, and have not commented on it after our discussion.
Your continual insertion of tags is a gross violation of stated policy, and your comparison of Andrew’s work and Red Dawn is a clear case of childish vandalism. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I might also add that your insertion of BS disputed tags is also vadalization:
Why on earth would we have the movie red Dawn in the article...it is a fiction based movie quite obviously-- MONGO 07:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the most recent edit by
Torturous Devastating Cudgel adding citations regarding the Mitrokhin material, I have some observations to make:
-- Atavi 10:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that we are wasting to much effort and energy to this single topic. I made several observations on the first three sections of this article that can be used to improve it. I don't know if we can reach a consensus on the disputed passages of the article and move on. -- Magicartpro 15:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they must refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I have protected this page due to a need to rehash out the contents without edit warring. Thanks. Let me know when a consensus is reached.-- MONGO 19:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It would appear to me that the crux of this current debate is as follows: some editors disagree with the Andrew (and other) material, but don’t have or will not cite a source that can offer a counter argument, so instead they take to criticizing the source. Attack the messenger instead of the message. While this is not disallowed, as long as said critics conform to WP:RS and WP:V, it’s a tangential attempt to fork the article because said critics are not attacking the specific conclusion in the article, only those who present them.
As such, I feel that any criticisms of Andrew and Mitrokhin belong in their respective articles, and criticism of their allegations against the Sandinistas belong in the Sandinista article. As is we are applying broad criticisms to address several narrow allegations.
If there is material that states “no the Soviets did not aid the Sandinistas, or no the Stasi did not organize the Sandinistan secret police, by all means introduce it, but I think it does a great disservice to the article to avoid this and instead focus on attacking the messenger instead of providing contrary information to the message.
Now, Abe, what specifically do you have to offer in an attempt to compromise and remove this protection. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Is a criticism of a source in general, but not to the specific conclusions that the sources makes on a subject be allowed in an article. For example, “John Doe thinks that Acme chocolate ice cream is very good, but Jane Doe thinks that John Doe is a fraud” should Jane Doe’s criticism of John Doe go into the Acme chocolate ice cream article, or into the John Doe article.
Specifically here, Christopher Andrew, drawing off the work of Vasili Mitrokhin, claims that the KGB recruited a number of top Sandinistan officials, including one of its founders, and held a great deal of influence over the organization and subsequent government. Criticisms has been added that only deals with Mitrokhin (I think), not Andrew or the specific allegation with regard to the FSLN. Should these criticisms go here or in the Vasili Mitrokhin and Christopher Andrew articles?
This article is not about a book. Material critical of the book belongs in the authors article. Either the source passes WP:RS and WP:V or it does not. Plain and simple. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This may surprise some of you, but I'm more with TDC than not here. Abe, Mitrokhin is not your hypothetical "tooth fairy". We usually treat Mitrokhin as a generally reliable, but by no means a flawless, source. To my knowledge, the only notably better sources on KGB matters are official archival releases (and, like CIA releases, those aren't flawless either): please tell me if you are aware of other, better "inside the KGB" sources.
I don't think this article needs a general critique of Mitrokhin. On the other hand:
This is also exactly the way I would expect handle a source like, for example, Daniel Ortega himself. We should be clear whose account we are retailing, but (in the absence of a specific, citable, critique or differing account) this is not the place to take up the precise degree of reliability of a generally reliable, but not entirely disinterested, source.
TDC's conduct elsewhere is irrelevant to the question at hand: I certainly have confronted him when I've seen him on the other side of this argument when it suits his political purposes, and I wish he would consistently extend to other editors the same fair treatment he demands for himself. - Jmabel | Talk 21:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The main article is about the FSLN, not the KGB or Mitrokhin. It can be cited in the context as "Carlos Fonseca, a young student and alleged by Mitrokhin to be a KGB recruit". But I don't see the need for an entire section with extended information about alleged conspiracy theories. In that case we have to edit the main British Labour Party article in order to include Mitrokhin's allegations on the fact that many members of the Labour party were KGB agents. And maybe another section with our conclusions on the role that the KGB played in Tony Blair's victory over the conservatives. And the fact that Tony Blair is President Bush's closest allied is maybe an evidence that the United States is on it's way to become a Communist State? Who knows? -- Magicartpro 22:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The fundamental problem here is that TDC is trying once again to push his POV into this article. He is going well being adding noncontroversial facts to the article. There is no controversy about the fact that Carlos Fonseca and other Sandinista leaders were ideological believers in some form of Marxism-Leninism (although their versions of Marxism differ significantly from the Soviet version). There is also no dispute over the fact that they were guerrilla revolutionaries who overthrew the Somoza dictatorship by force. If you actually follow the footnotes of Andrews/Mitrokhin, in fact, you'll find that most of the evidence they present in support of these assertions is taken from the writings of people such as Donald Hodges (Intellectual Foundations of the Nicaraguan Revolution) and from the very biography of Carlos Fonseca by Matilde Zimmermann that TDC has sneeringly dismissed here.
The statements in this article that are highly questionable involve the claim by Andrews/Mitrokhin that Fonseca and the Sandinistas were recruited by the KGB for acts of violence and sabotage inside the United States. The evidence that Andrews/Mitrokhin present for this claim is very thin. In The World Was Going Our Way, which contains the largest treatment that they offer of this claim, Carlos Fonseca is only mentioned by name on two pages of the book (pages 41-42). Moreover, the passage in which Andrews/Mitrokhin discuss this charge is at odds with the interpretation that TDC is trying to foist upon this article. On page 42-43 of The World Was Going Our Way, they state:
What we're left with, then, is the claim that the KGB attempted to recruit the FSLN for attacks on targets inside the United States, but no evidence that the FSLN ever actually undertook any such attacks or ever agreed to do so. In fact, the evidence from Andrews/Mitrokhin suggests that the FSLN expressly refused to do so, and that the individual within the FSLN who the KGB was trying to recruit for that purpose (Ubeda, not Fonseca) didn't even know that the KGB was trying to use him.
If you read Andrews' notes, moreover, he states that "Mitrokhin's notes identify PIMEN as 'one of the leaders of the ISKRA group', but his exact relationship with it is unclear." Furthermore, the Andrews/Mitrokhin books agree with sources like Donald Hodges and Matilde Zimmermann on an important point that undercuts the narrative TDS is trying to create: Although all parties (Andrews/Mitrokhin, Hodges and Zimmermann included) agree that Carlos Fonseca was impressed by the Soviet Union when he visited there in 1957 (and even wrote a pamphlet that celebrated his experience), there were significant differences in philosophy and priorities between the Soviets and Cubans. Fonseca soon became a critic of Soviet-style communism and preferred the Cuban approach.
Finally, Hodges and others have noted that Fonseca was expelled from the Nicaraguan Socialist Party (Nicaragua's Soviet-aligned communist party). His political thinking, like the philosophy of other Sandinistas, combined Marxist ideas with a belief in political pluralism and elements of Sandino's anarcho-syndicalism, all of which were heretical from the point of view of Moscow and the KGB.
In short, the relationship between the Soviet Union, Marxism, the Sandinistas and Carlos Fonseca specifically is considerably more complex and nuanced that the simplistic, accusatory and ideologically tendentious interpretation that TDC is trying to force upon this article. TDC's interpretation is so different from the accounts provided by serious scholars that it doesn't belong in this article and should be rejected under Wikipedia's policy of no original research. Moreover, his habitually bellicose style is tiresome and contrary to Wikipedia policies on civility and etiquette. He has been contributing an average of 30 edits per day to the talk page of this article, most of which consist of sniping, insults and threats aimed at other users. Given his long history of abuse including sock puppetry and other violations of Wikipedia policy, there is no reason why the community should to tolerate this. His behavior is disruptive and, if tolerated, will drive away responsible Wikipedia contributors who lack the patience to go to war with him every time they want to challenge his obsessive POV-pushing. -- Sheldon Rampton 06:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The charge of NOR is cute and all, but hardly applies here as I am most certainly not advancing a theory, or stringing together disparate pieces of information to do so. The notion that the FSLN leadership was, in no small part, being unduly influenced from Havana and Moscow is not an opinion that is solely mine and I have gone to great lengths to cite a large number of sources who also believe this to be the case. You should re read the section on WP:NOR so you don’t make this mistake again.
As for the reason that I spend so much time on the talk pages, its because in certain articles a good deal of discussion is needed to break away from the dominant POV of an article. An article like this does not draw upon a wide number of users, and it would appear that the majority have a sympathetic POV towards the Sandinistans. In a larger more heavily edited article, like say Julius Rosenberg, a large number of users with varying POV’s have edited the article and formed something closer to a balanced entry on the subject.
As to your citation from the book regarding the KGB’s recruitment of FSLN members, you did not look at the relevant passages, only sneakily pieced together select passages to reinfoce your argument, and had you cited the contents on page 43 you would have seen that this was not just an operation that was “proposed” but had in fact been implemented.
The following: Andara y Ubede, however, insisted, no doubt correctly, that his men were too poorly armed and trained to launch attacks against the well-defended US bases. Instead, they engaged in guerrilla and intelligence operations against the Somoza regime, non-military American organizations and anti-Castro Cuban refugees. ... has nothing to do with the operations inside the US and was in reference to Ubede’s refusal to launch attacks against the "well-defended US bases" (referring to raids on US business and financial interest in Nicaragua to in Nicaragua from Mexico.)
He later traveled to Moscow for his training in the American sabotage operations, so how in God’s name you could claim that he rejected to do it, and that he was unaware that the KGB was behind it? Your stringing together of entirely disparate sentences which have absolutely nothing to do with each other is either woefully ignorant or an underhanded attempt to use a source to imply something opposite to the conclusions of said reference (and you accuse me of NOR).
This intentional attempt to string together segments of source to make it appear the source is saying something that it clear does not, makes me much less willing to believe you are willing to engage in a good faith discussion of the material.
A bit of background on this BTW, the same time the Soviets were using their FSLN contacts for they were also using agents in Canada for similar missions in the Northern US, like Flathead and Hungry Horse dams. The FSLN infiltration units the Soviets sent to Texas and the south were to reconnoiter and familiarize themselves with the targets, not to act on them. This was to be done in the event of hostilities between the Soviets and the United States, and not as some unprovoked act of aggression. No one is alleging that the FSLN units used in this capacity were there to destroy anything, only that thee were preparing themselves for it when their Moscow paymasters gave the order (kind of like Red Dawn. Most of this was done under the supervision of the GRU, and not the KGB, and as there have been no high level GRU defectors, the true extent of these operations is not known. When asked about these operations former KGB Col. Oleg Gordievsky said "It all rings very true, I personally participated in digging ground in [Stockholm] and putting radio equipment into the ground."
Furthermore Andrew’s use of sources like Zimmermann and Hodges was for background on the individuals mentioned, not to help establish their ties with Moscow, and furthermore, he cites Zimmermann and Hodges exactly once. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
What historians understand, and what I apparently TDC doesn’t understand ….. what are you talking about? Andrew is one of the most well respected cold war intelligence historians around. He is evaluating the strength of the underlying material and of his source, not me. While it may be appropriate to judge the reliability of certain sources, we don’t extend that to judging the reliability of sources' sources. As a well respected historian, we have to rely on Andrew’s judgment on how seriously he investigated and vetted this information.
So, are you really going to say that since this historical work “may be” clouded with bias or second hand material, that it should be excluded? Almost all historic work is clouded with these problems issues and they aren’t made to be nearly as contentious as they are here. Far too many articles are ripe with material from sources who fail any of the above test ( Gladio cough cough), but since they are popular amongst certain groups and often repeated, they are taken seriously.
This is really getting pointless, but here goes. On Fonseca:
Furthermore an agent is described as follows: an individual who agrees to cooperate secretly with an official intelligence representative, and to carry out consciously systematically and secretly his intelligence assignments
This was not from Zimmerman, the only information from Zimmerman was taken to provide some context on who Fonseca was (one paragraph of background) not his relationship with Soviet intelligence.
But more, since your truncated and hobbled together quotes don’t clarify the material at hand.
He could not be more clear on Fonseca’s relationship with both Ubeda and his activities. Are we going to go round and round here, with you distoring material and me correcting you, or are we going to agree on its inclusion in the article (if in a modified form), or does this go to mediation? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
<---------------------------- So what’s the deal here people? Is this over? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 13:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I would like to restore some material that got clobbered during the recent fights; normally, I would just do this, but I see that the article is currently protected, so I would like consensus.
If you examine this diff you can see that we lost three paragraphs near the start of the article that—give or take a few copy edits—seem to me like a good general introduction to the subject. I can't quickly sort out where in the contentious edit history they were removed (or, more likely, removed, re-added, removed again, etc.). Does anyone have any problem with my restoring these paragraphs? Given the protection, I will allow at least 48 hours for objections. - Jmabel | Talk 00:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like the current version is basically TDC's and it looks like in places it is written with evident animus against the Sandinistas. For example, the section Sandinista human rights record gives no context of either an ongoing war or the human rights records historically typical of the country or contemporaneously typical of the region. The Sandinista regime was flawed in this respect, but compared to anything else around it, it was a beacon of light, and groups like Amnesty generally acknowledged that even when they criticized the Sandinistas. - Jmabel | Talk 00:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The Sandinista regime was flawed in this respect, but compared to anything else around it, it was a beacon of light, and groups like Amnesty generally acknowledged that even when they criticized the Sandinistas.
Given the political nature of Amnesty (U.S. and allies=evil, Soviets=? and leftist third world=good), that isn't a very impressive arguement. 65.185.190.240 22:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not an editor here, and not knowledgable about this topic, but I have some observations. The KGB section is at best confusing and poorly written. I am not sure what is being alleged - that the KGB formed the FSLN from nothing, or tried to use an already existing orgaization for its own ends. The final two paragraphs of the section, where the disputants throw references at each other, are not useful. KGB ties to this organization certainly seem relevant to the article. The biggest problems are readibility and making it clear where the information comes from, and including something brief about why this source may be contested.--
MikeThicke 23:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The allegation that the KGB formed the FSLN from nothing is false. The KGB ties to the Sandinista organization before 1979 are irrelevant to the article. -- Magicartpro 09:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This is very much a live issue. Elections are due in Nicaragua this Autumn and altho it is close it is possible that the FSLN will be returned to power. Naturally the USA is seeking to influence these elections and interfering with dire threats from the US ambassador if the FSLN are returned to power. The fact that the USA is still interfering in the internal affairs of Nicaragua now when the USSR is history gives the lie to the idea that it was Soviet influence that it feared in the country. What the USA feared - and still fears - is a negative effect on the profits of US-based fruit multinationals Del Monte and United Fruit(Dole). Doubtless the apologists for US imperialism here will soon find some 'source' showing the influence of Al Qaida on the FLSN and Daniel Ortega having tea with Osama Bin Laden. I know that the page is currently protected but there should be some mention of these coming elections. SmokeyTheFatCat 09:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to rewrite this section for two main reasons:
There is a paragraph that makes true but (in my view) misleading statements:
The Sandinista government also repressed press outlets it deemed too critical of its policies. The most notable examples were the Catholic church's Radio Católica and opposition newspaper La Prensa. La Prensa was especially singled out for abuse. It was routinely censored and shut down, and its editors harrassed by the state security apparatus.
Given that both of these media organs were calling for the overthrow of the government in wartime, it is utterly unsurprising that they were censored. From what I remember from the time, it is more remarkable how long they were tolerated and how far they were allowed to go before they were shut. If we are taking up this topic in this article, then this short paragraph does not do it justice. - Jmabel | Talk 07:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The subject heading is censorship. Shutting down opposition press and radio stations, irrespective of whether such actions are "unsurprising" or not, clearly qualifies as such.
And as an aside, I would note that there are plenty of examples of governments in wartime that do NOT close down opposition press outlets. Last I checked, despite being involved in a war in Iraq, the U.S. government hasn't shut down any Marxist organs. Your rationalization of the censorship, and even more so, your comment that seems to actually laud the Sandanistas for "tolerating" opposition and "allowing it to go on" (!) smacks much more of apologia than an attempt to provide context for the Sandanista campaign of oppression. Ritwingr 07:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Your comparison might be apt if America was a pathetic third world nation and the Marxist "organs" being funded were taking in millions of dollars from a superpower. Do you honestly think that if, say, the KGB had bankrolled the Washington Post that the United States wouldn't have shut down the paper and/or arrested the journalists on the KGB payroll?
The Sandinistas did get some criticism for periodically shutting down La Prensa, so that situation deserves mention. I'm not cool with the word "abuse" in the quote, as it's debatable whether it was abusive to periodically shut down La Prensa for what Ritwingr would surely label treason if an American did it to the American government. -- MarkB2 05:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you think that the British government would have allowed Nazi propaganda mongers to run a daily newspaper in Britain in 1940? Of course not. The FSLN were just as tolerant as Winston Churchill. SmokeyTheCat 15:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In this Daniel Ortega of the FSLN regained the presidency of Nicaragua.
I added this single line to the main article. I very much hope that it won't be deleted as it is obviously relevant. SmokeyTheFatCat 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe someone can also insert some information here about Mr. Ortega's cozy relationship with Tehran. The slant on this article makes him seem like such a cuddly little teddy bear who has been wronged all these years by the big, bad United States. Maybe we can begin to insert some truth here.
The level of detail provided in the paragraph on the hostage situation strikes me as one that needs sourcing, especially since this is narrative that has popped up in the last couple of days. I tagged it. Also, does anyone have the name of the minister whose home it was? 146.243.4.157 20:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I replaced that wording in industrial development with administration, since I think calling the previous elected Sandinista government of 1984-1990 iron fisted is complete POV. - Chris Gilmore
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=FSLN_human_rights_abuses&action=edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front#Sandinista_human_rights_record
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
213.39.190.133 (
talk •
contribs) 12 November 2006.
CIA propaganda does not adhere to NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.126.255.184 ( talk • contribs) 13 November 2006.
I added material to the criticism of the Mitrokhin passage because the archive is passed off as fact, when that is far from clear. The archive is not primary source, and mainstream historians from the American Historical Review have questioned these single-sourced claims. Abe Froman 20:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
My mistake. Comment self-deleted. Stone put to sky 06:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see the "Relationship with the KGB" area cleaned up. As it is, there is little mention of the skepticism with which most of the world views Mitrokhin's material, nor of the many discrepancies which surround the U.S. government's accusations in that regard. As the material is currently presented, it appears that there are only two people in the world who are skeptical about the authenticity of the Mitrokhin material (when in fact it's more like 20,000), and that there are no questions about the veracity or motives of the U.S. government's "evidence". While the passage is couched in terms of "According to", the rhetoric gives center stage to Mitrokhin's assertions -- which many believe are sheer fantasy -- while giving no time whatsoever to the challenges those assetions have met with. For the record, i don't think this is a place where we need to get into a deep investigation regarding the questions surrounding Mitrokhin's material; but there needs to be a much stronger clarification of the considerable questions surrounding the material, as well as the many objections to the U.S. Government's material of the time (many of which originated from within the U.S. government itself). Stone put to sky 06:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The article is misrepresenting the Sandinistas as strictly composed of the Junta that later came to be led by Daniel Ortega. This is wrong. The Sandinistas were composed of several different groups which -- with considerable help from the U.S. -- eventually splintered apart in violence against each other, but have since operated together under the auspices of the political system devised by the original coalition. The article should reflect that, but it doesn't currently do so.
The article should clearly indicate that the first group to operate under the "Sandinista" name was that of Eden Pastora, which predated the FSLN. After the FSLN was formed, they joined with Pastora and turned over military leadership to him. Later, the Sandinistas were joined in their fight by business leaders and moderate politicians who opposed the dictatorship. The article currently gives the false impression that the Sandinistas started with FSLN members, and that this group alone has comprised its core group. This is simply false. Stone put to sky 04:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
If i don't hear anything back on this, then i'll take it as an accession and start to re-work the introduction in a couple of days. Sister-in-law's getting married tomorrow. Stone put to sky 06:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Granted, everything. However, this article is about the "Sandinistas/FSLN"; Pastora's group was the first one known as "Sandinistas" and it was from this group that the FSLN adopted the nomiker. Similarly, the fact that Pastora ascended to the status of "Comander Zero" says a great deal: Zero comes before even "the first". Pastora and his group represent a stage in the evolution of the people's movement that became the "Sandinistas" we think of today.
I have no problem with pointing out that the FSLN eventually came to be the only Sandinistas; but the Sandinistas of the '50's - '70's, the Sandinistas of the early '80's, the Sandinistas of the early '90s, and the Sandinistas of today represent four phases of a single movement, none of which are so clearly defined from their predecessor that we may comfortably say they are distinct. The name "Sandinsta" and the movement it represents has undergone steady and continuous change over these last five decades. It is undeniable that the Sandinistas of today are an entirely different group than the Sandinistas of the early '70's or mid-'80's, and wrong to say that the group got it's start with the FSLN. Stone put to sky 16:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Great! This is all excellent stuff, none of which i myself personally knew! Why in the world isn't this in the article?
This is the *main* article on "the Sandinistas". If you would like to split the FSLN off from it, then i think that would be appropriate. However, we should first build a case for that move here on this page, by introducing substantiated sources for the material that you are implying just above.
I, for one, am very happy to see that someone so informed as yourself about the Sandinista movement is helping to edit this page, now. Since this is the main page for "Sandinistas", where do you think we should start? Stone put to sky 05:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be better to simply name it "The Sandinista Movement" -- or make that last one plural, if you like -- because "ideologies" is a loaded word (considered "Marxist" by most people in the U.S.). Similarly, i think a lengthy explanation here in *this* article must be included to explain the relationship of the FSLN to the greater Sandinista movement. But yeah -- i think that we've hit on a very direct way to obviate a lot of the disagreement on this page. Stone put to sky 06:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a separate article for the FRS, to begin with? -- Soman 08:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the FRS should also have its own page.
I don't have a problem developing separate pages, but i think we would best be served using this process:
That would save us a lot of back-and-forth grief, i think. If we split the pages to begin with and then start editing them separately, i think a lot of information will get reduplicated unecessarily, there's a much greater chance of either article getting uncomfortably skewed towards a particular political viewpoint, and we're likely to see the total editing force that's currently present split up into different groups that rarely communicate.
So i'd rather see us work here first and then do the split, but that's just my opinion. Stone put to sky 13:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Why laugh? Capitalism is absolutely a loaded word! I am of the firm opinion that Adam Smith is spinning in his grave at the way it's currently being abused and misused by the "experts" of the U.S. ;-)
Seriously, though: are you suggesting that the FRS didn't have political goals, and wasn't created as a means to engender or enforce certain political forms? I find that hard to believe, and as far as i'm concerned that's all that's needed for something to qualify as "political"; but i agree that my wording above was rather imprecise.
I'm starting a new section below, where we can explore possibilities for a new structure to this article. Stone put to sky 08:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we should start off with a discussion of what "Sandinista" means and how it's used within Nicaragua and other Central American countries. After first establishing a basic overview of the word "Sandinista" and how it's used natively, we will be able to get a better idea of where the article should go. Do folks agree with me on this? Stone put to sky 08:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Something like "The name 'Sandinista' refers to a...existing...still active...social movement that has its roots in the ideas of Augusto Sandino....Central America...socialism...catholic church...local natives...It includes a broad range of organizations, both formal and informal (see list below)....broad socialist principles....The name "Sandinista" is often wrongly associated...exclusively...with the FSLN, who represent only one....and is currently....
I think y'all get the idea. Next, perhaps followed by a structure something like this:
II From Sandino to WWII III The Post-WWII Era A) 1950 - 1970 B) 1970 - 1990 C) 1990 - Present IV Groups and Movements Using the Name 'Sandinista' V Social Change and the Sandinistas: Achievements and Undertakings VI Military and Political Action Under the Name 'Sandinista'
It would then be a much easier thing to separate out the specifically FSLN, FRS, etc stuff, and those articles could simply make direct reference to the fundamental Sandinista article (which is where all traffic searching for "Sandinista" should be first directed). Comments? Stone put to sky 09:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The first part is History
I Sandino and the EDSN II The Post-Sandino Era A) 1934 - 1937 : The annihilation of Sandino's movement B) 1937 - 1950 : Sandinism vs Somocism C) 1950 - 1970 : Formation of the new Sandinistas; FRS, MNN, FSLN, etc. D) 1970 - 1979 : The struggle against Somoza; three tendencies of the FSLN + MPU, FER, etc. E) 1979 - 1990 : Sandinistas in the Government; reunification of the Sandinistas F) 1990 - 2000 : Sandinistas in opposition; rearmed Sandinista groups, FUAC, FROC + the dissidents in the MRS G) 2000 - 2005 : Second reunification of the Sandinistas; the Convergence H) 2005 - Present : The internal struggle and the Sandinistas back in Government
Then there is the Sandinista Ideology and its influence in the Nicaraguan society
III The Sandinista Ideology A) Sandino's ideological roots B) The legacy of Sandino C) Sandino in the struggle against Somoza D) FSLN's historical program E) Sandinism vs. Socialism F) Today's Sandinistas IV Social Change and the Sandinistas: Achievements and Undertakings
And last, a list of Sandinista groups and movements
V List of Groups and Movements Using the Name 'Sandinista'/ with a Sandinista Ideology A) Extinct B) Active
What do you think? -- Magicart pro 17:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Good structure. I like it. Just do the rough draft in a sandbox so editors don't get the wrong idea when content disappears/reappears. Abe Froman 17:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I like it, too, but have some small adjustments i'd suggest.
Before i do that, though, let me preface what i'm about to say by admitting that i really have no qualifications to add much to a subject on which you are obviously quite knowledgable. With that in mind, i'm approaching what we're talking about more as an opportunity for me to learn much more about this subject while offering what i hope is some constructive advice to aid in the aims and utility of the article.
Now in regards to your suggestions, i agree with most of them; but i do worry that Sections II and III will become too detailed. Since we're shooting for an encyclopedic treatment, we should just give broad outlines with references to more detailed sources that the reader can follow up if they care to. My general aim for any article is that it can be easily broken up into large sections, and that the overviews (i.e. -- Section I and II) shouldn't take longer than five or ten minutes to get through on a quick read.
I like what you've done with the current "Sandinista Ideology" and would love to include most of it, but the detail you've provided there is frightening even for someone like me, who is interested in this subject. As i understand things, this 'pedia isn't here to educate people on the details of Sandinism, but only to give a broad outline that will help us understand what its relevance is to the Sandinistas, its broader influences on the movements which use that name, and how this all fits into the history of the region and of the greater American hemisphere.
On that basis, i'd suggest something like this:
I Overview of the term "Sandinista" II History A) 1934 - 1950 : Sandinism vs Somocism B) 1950 - 1970 : Formation of the new Sandinistas: FRS, MNN, FSLN, etc. C) 1970 - 1979 : The struggle against Somoza D) 1979 - 1990 : Sandinistas in the Government E) 1990 - Present : Sandinistas in Opposition, Convergence, and Debate III The Sandinista Ideology A) Sandino's ideological roots and Legacy B) Sandino in the struggle against Somoza C) FSLN's historical program D) Sandinism vs. Socialism E) Today's Sandinistas IV Social Change and the Sandinistas: Achievements and Undertakings V List of Groups and Movements Using the Name 'Sandinista'/ with a Sandinista Ideology A) Active B) Extinct
What exactly is the "EDSN", and what relationship does it have to Sandino and the Sandinistas? Because i don't know the answer to that question, i can't really comment on it.
As it is, though, what i've suggested are pretty moderate changes, i think, and preserve the bulk of your suggested structure. The biggest challenges will be for us to keep the sub-sections in II and III from getting too dense, or growing too large.
Finally, there will definitely be people who demand a section outlining what sort of relationship Sandinista groups have had to Communism, the Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. So it's probably best to start worrying about that now rather than putting it off 'til later. Stone put to sky 17:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Why the strikeout? I totally agree that we need to treat the subject of what Sandino and his (original) movement advocated. There's no problem from me on that, and i'd imagined that would come out naturally in the "Sandino vs Somocism" portion. I can't imagine that we'd be able to describe the differences between those two powers without also touching on the huge differences in their political and social goals. Stone put to sky 09:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
In the section titled "The Split of the FSLN" is the following sentence: "On 10 January 1978, Pedro Joaquín Chamorro Cardenal, the popular editor of the opposition newspaper La Prensa and leader of the 'Democratic Union of Liberation' (Unión Democrática de Liberación - UDEL), the bourgeois opposition, was assassinated." First of all - "the bourgeois opposition"? What is that? The article does mention that in addition to the FSLN there was a right-wing opposition to the Somoza gov't, so maybe that's what this sentence is referring to; but it should be much clearer IMO. Secondly, editorial use of Marxist/Marxian terms is PoV and inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.87.187.201 ( talk) 03:41, 16 December, 2006 (UTC)
"Bourgeois" in itself is not an inherently marxist term. Even so, a term that is id'd by some as "marxist" is not inherently biased.
Secondly -- i do accept that the use of the phrase "the bourgeois opposition" in this context is unacceptably biased. The death or assassination of an individual is not meaningful only in relation to their perceived political outlook, and the use of the "bourgeois" qualifier here implies that. I support removal of "the bourgeois opposition". Similarly, i do not support identifying Chamorro as strictly "right wing" unless there is some sort of clearly articulated philosophical or poltical statement by Chamorro himself that identifies him in such a manner. Stone put to sky 20:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
While I was looking over the article, I saw that an "Oscar Antonio Sanchez" had been added to the list of prominent Sandinistas. I don't claim to be familiar with the entire FSLN pantheon, but I'd never heard of him before. Checking the history, I found that he was added by an IP on November 6. He was described as being a colonel, but there were higher-ranking Sandinistas, like Joaquin Cuadra... who I realized wasn't on the list. So I've removed "Sanchez," and added Cuadra. If someone has information about this Sanchez being a major Sandinista, they can put him back in.
I also removed the bit about Tomas Borge's GPP being "explicitly Maoist." While it advocated a Maoist strategy, I don't see it as following Maoist programs in a wider sense.
There are a lot of other things I don't like about the article, but I'll have to deal with them later. -- Groggy Dice T| C 09:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This sort of agitprop will not be tolerated. Either cite well-respected sources or stop trashing this page. Since none of the propaganda in that section can be verified by actual sources, it will be removed. For facts on human rights in Nicaragua refer to: http://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/Nica81eng/TOC.htm Jacob Peters
Why is there no mention of the anti-semitic policies of the Sandinistas? Prezen 21:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Er, because there weren't any? SmokeyTheCat 14:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the 'KGB' section towards the bottom of the article. Even if it is true - which I doubt - it is hardly the most important aspect of the FSLN. SmokeyTheCat 14:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could say that it's incredible that an article this poorly written, and containing such flagrant examples of anti-American and pro-Sandinista POV and weasel words could remain virtually intact for so long, but unfortunately it's not. Such is the nature of Wikipedia, which is why it should generally not be taken seriously by anyone doing research on any topic more substantial than random pop culture references.
The article reads like a KGB propaganda leaflet, making the Sandinistas out to be saints while demonizing all of their enemies. Will someone who is NOT a Sandinista--and who, preferably has a decent understanding of English grammar--please go through this article and fix it so that it bears some semblance of neutrality, and thus becomes actually useful to someone looking for information about this period in Nicaraguan history? I would do it myself, but the article is too much of a mess for one person to clean up, and frankly I've got more important things to do.-- Antodav 68.52.242.229 19:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't see what Antodav means. He gives no examples. The article seems reasonable to me. SmokeyTheCat 09:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking at this article side by side with the Wikipedia article on the Contras tells me all I need to know. This whole project is a joke and a disgrace. You people don't even try and hide your ridiculous leftist biases. This whole article is COMPLETE GARBAGE!!! How about putting in some TRUTH about Daniel Ortega . . . just to start? How about including information about what he is CURRENTLY DOING? Are his visits to Tehran of NO INTEREST to anyone?
I know I might be beating a dead horse here, but I am going to remove the on several grounds. First, material from Andrew is used in other articles, such as Salvador Allende without similar caveats on the source. Secondly, the caveats from Getty and Raman are generalized and not specific to accusations made against the FSLN. Lastly, the caveats appear, nearly verbatim in the parent article.
As such, I am going to remove the caveats. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
TDC, You try this every few months. It is tiresome. I replaced the material for the following reasons:
Cheers. Abe Froman 22:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I added this section. It seems important enough to be worthy of inclusion. SmokeyTheCat 09:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I have an issue with the source that characterizes the El Salvador groups as terrorists. I would not call it reliable.-- Atavi 14:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia urges extreme caution when using words like "terrorist" and "freedom fighter." It's best to avoid them altogether, stick to verifiable facts, and let readers make their own judgments. If we are going to use them, we need to avoid using weasel words like "some people accuse them" and specifically say who makes the accusation. Unfortunately, it seems like there's always someone ready to call someone else a terrorist... Notmyrealname 23:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
"It has been alleged that the Sandinistas were supporting militant groups in El Salvador using "terrorist tactics". [10] The Sandinistas have also been accused of practising terror against its Indian population, of carrying out approximately 8,000 political executions within three years of the revolution, and as well as numerous other repressions. [11]"
Yes, right-wing sources. That does not necessarily exclude them, NPOV requires the views of both sides. They both list references. Ultramarine 10:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
That is certainly one point of view, but it is not the way to go about things on Wikipedia. If you cite a source, you have to represent what it says. The IACHR report (you post two links, but the second one is to the table of contents for the same report) discusses dozens of killings (not 8,000) and makes the conclusions that I quoted above. The Time Magazine article is a statement from one witness testifying to a human rights group. It's fine to cite it, but it needs to be described properly. Notmyrealname 18:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, I couldn't find any references, or an author for the Time magazine article you have cited - do you know where I could find these? Pexise 19:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Now for a megasource. It is Statistics of Democide, R.J. Rummel, 1997. The book lists numerous sources regarding democide in all nations and what their estimates for numbers killed are. The sources and numbers for Nicaragua under the Sandinistas can be found here: [23]. The full references are here: [24] Even if you dislike Rummel's own estimate, 5,000 dead due to Sandinista democide (and 8,000 political prisoners on average each year), which he makes using these sources, then the sources he list are still valid on their own. As a summary, I will list all my current sources (again, these list sources on their own).
From wikipedia article on R. J. Rummel: "Most estimates of democide are uncertain and scholars often give widely different estimates." Pexise 19:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I still can't find any of the sources or the author of the Time article - could you please show me one of the refernces and the name of the author? Pexise 19:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
So as a start, I propose just creating a section, called Human rights violations, and initially stating: "The Sandinistas has been accused of human rights violations such as mass executions, political prisoners, and restricting freedom of expression and association. New Regime, Old Methods (January 24, 1983), TIME. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, Roxana Chahin, Nicaragua's killing fields, (April 29, 1991), National Review. The Sandinista War on Human Righs (July 19, 1983), Heritage Foundation. Report on the Situation of Human Rights in the Repulic of Nicaragua (1981), Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. Report on the Situation of Human Rights of a Segment of the Nicaraguan Population of Miskito Origin (1983), Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. R.J. Rummel, Statistics of Democide (1997) Table References" This can later be expanded. Thoughts? Ultramarine 15:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The issue of human rights during the 1980s in Nicaragua should be treated with great care. It is impossible to deal with the issue without taking account of the circumstances and context in which events took place. It is very important to consider that a counter-revolutionary war was being fought against the government in this period (by the US-backed Contras) and that part of the government response to the situation of conflict was to enact a state of emergency, which included the derogation of certain human rights.
Independent organisations have also drawn attention to the politicisation of the issue of human rights at this time, stating that human rights was a key component of propaganda created by the Reagan administration to help legitimise its policies in the region. The Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America (ICCHRLA) in its Newsletter commented that: "The hostility with which the Nicaraguan government is viewed by the Reagan administration is an unfortunate development. Even more unfortunate is the expression of that hostility in the destabilization campaign developed by the US administration ... An important aspect of this campaign is misinformation and frequent allegations of serious human rights violations by the Nicaraguan authorities." [1]
The 1987 report published by UK based NGO Catholic Institute for International Relations (CIIR, now known as Progressio), "Right to Survive - Human Rights in Nicaragua", [2] also discussed the politicisation of the human rights issue: "The Reagan administration, with scant regard for the truth, has made a concerted effort to paint as evil a picture as possible of Nicaragua, describing it as a 'totalitarian dungeon'. Supporters of the Sandinistas have produced lengthy critiques of the Amnesty International and Americas Watch reports. They have argued that Nicaragua has a good record of human rights compared with other Central American countries and have compared Nicaragua with other countries at war."
TIME magazine in 1983 published allegations of human rights violations in an article which stated that "According to Nicaragua's Permanent Commission on Human Rights, the regime detains several hundred people a month; about half of them are eventually released, but the rest simply disappear." TIME also interviewed a former deputy chief of Nicaraguan military counterintelligence, who stated that he had fled Nicaragua after being ordered to eliminate 800 Miskito prisoners and make it look like as if they had died in combat. [3]
Also using the Permanent Commission on Human Rights as one of its sources, the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think thank, in a 1983 report alleged various human rights violations, including censorship, creating a neighborhood system which encouraged spying and reporting by neighbors, torture by state security forces, thousands of political prisoners, assassinations both inside and outside Nicaragua, and that a former Sandinista Intelligence officer has stated that 5,000 were killed in the early months of Sandinsta rule. [4]
The CIIR was critical of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, citing a tendency to immediately publish accusations against the government without first establishing a factual basis for the allegations. The CIIR report also questioned the independence of the Permanent Commission on Human Rights, pointing out that it received funds from the National Endowment for Democracy, an organization funded by the US government, and that these funds were administrated by Prodemca, a US-based organization which later published full-page advertisements in the Washington Post and New York Times supporting military aid to the Contras.
Among the accusations in the Heritage Foundation report are lengthy references to alleged policies of religious persecution. The ICCHRLA reported that: "From time to time the current U.S. administration, and private organizations sympathetic to it, have made serious and extensive allegations of religious persecution in Nicaragua. Colleague churches in the United States undertook onsite investigation of these charges in 1984. In their report, the delegation organized by the Division of Overseas Ministries of the National Council of Churches of Christ in the United States concluded that there is 'no basis for the charge of systematic religious persecution'. The delegation 'considers this issue to be a device being used to justify aggressive opposition to the present Nicaraguan government.'" [5]
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in a 1981 report found evidence for mass executions in the period following the revolution. It stated "In the Commission’s view, while the government of Nicaragua clearly intended to respect the lives of all those defeated in the civil war. During the weeks immediately subsequent to the Revolutionary triumph, when the government was not in effective control, illegal executions took place which violated the right to life, and these acts have not been investigated and the persons responsible have not been punished." [6] The Commission also stated that: "The Commission is of the view that the new regime did not have, and does not now have, a policy of violating the right to life of political enemies, including among the latter the former guardsmen of the Government of General Somoza, whom a large sector of the population of Nicaragua held responsible for serious human rights violations during the former regime; proof of the foregoing is the abolition of the death penalty and the high number of former guardsmen who were prisoners and brought to trial for crimes that constituted violations of human rights." [7]
A 1983 report from the same source documented allegations of human rights violations against the Miskito indians, which were alleged to have taken place after opposition forces (the Contras) infiltrated a Miskito village in order to launch attacks against government soldiers, and as part of a subsequent forced relocation program. Allegations included arbitrary imprisonment without trial, "disappearances" of such prisoners, forced relocations, and destruction of property. [8]
The CIIR report refers to estimates made by Americas Watch which count the number of non-battle related deaths and disappearances for which the government was responsible up to the year 1986 as "close to 300". Amnesty International and Americas Watch stated that there is no evidence that the use of torture was sanctioned by the Nicaraguan authorities, although prisoners reported the use of conditions of detention and interrogation techniques that could be described as psychological torture. The Red Cross made repeated requests to be given access to prisoners held in state security detention centers, but were refused. Pexise 17:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's discuss this now as I've numbered the points above. And please try and be more constructive about this, I'm finding it very difficult to assume good faith as you are being quite petty and spiteful.
(1.) This section is not about the Contras, it is about allegations of human rights violations by the Sandinistas. It is not the place to discuss the motivations of the Contras.
(2.) I said some pro-Sandinista sources, or examples of propaganda from independent sources. You keep using far-right wing American sources.
(3.) As I said before, the structure is not argument/counter argument, it is thus: "first of all drawing attention to the controversies in play, then presenting controversial sources and criticisms and finally presenting less controversial, credible sources". This is a perfectly adequate structure following WP:AVOID guidelines. Pexise 19:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
A and b are POV violations in itself since they only present one view. Repeating a single source numerous times gives it undue weight and the structure makes it looke like all the criticisms have been disproved, when this source is just one among many. Ultramarine 21:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the structure, there are some different ways to do this. 1. The material from each source in a single paragraph. There is nothing in WP:AVOID regarding this, it only talks about not having all the criticisms separated from the rest of the article. 2. Separate sections for Numbers killed, Freedom of expression, Torture, Propaganda, etc. Then we can cite what each source has to say in each section. Either one is acceptable for me. Ultramarine 21:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the IACHR used the Comision Permanente de Derechos Humanos (CPDH) during the Somoza dictatorship, but you must understand that organisations change - they are not one homogeneous entity. After the revolution there were many changes in Nicaragua, and the leadership of the CPDH also changed:
"The CPDH, founded in 1977, played an important part in denouncing the crimes of the Somoza dictatorship. Founding members represented a broad spectrum of opposition to the regime, from Conservatives to those identified with the Sandinistas. Jose Estéban González, then coordinator of the organization, was also Secretary General of the Social Christian Party.
In its October 1981 report on human rights in Nicaragua, Pax Christi International noted that "the fall of the dictatorship brought about many changes within the commission's direction, as its members who were directly committed to the revolution did not agree with the policy line of Jose Estéban Gonzalez." The latter's Social Christian Party was becoming "a catalyst of the opposition," according to Pax Christi, and González was giving grossly exaggerated reports on the number of political prisoners (a tradition his successors have honored).
In January 1982, González was accused of collaborating with the contras, left the country and was sentenced in absentia. Laverty adds: "He has opened up a human rights organization in Belgium called the Nicaraguan Committee on Human Rights and distributes CPDH material widely throughout Europe."
González's successor as CPDH coordinator was Marta Patricia Baltodano who, Laverty notes, "is now working as director of the contra human rights organization called the Nicaraguan Association of Human Rights (ANPDH)." (See January envío for an analysis of the ANPDH.) On the other hand, many founding members of the CPDH left the organization in 1979 to take up significant posts with the new government."
What is more, this was not my only evidence for the unreliability of the Heritage Foundation - also the fact that it was a government think tank for the Reagan Admin during a period when the US was financing a counter-insurgency against the Nica Govt - harldly trustworthy. I also have INDEPENDENT, INTERNATIONAL sources which point out that accusations of religious persecution were a key part of the Reagan propaganda, and the HF report goes at length to accuse the Nica govt of religious persecution. I think this all adds up to a pretty strong case. Pexise 08:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose the following structure:
Although if we want to be really comprehensive, a section about the Miskito indians might be appropriate. Pexise 08:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC))
Again, the statistcs can be found from line 2477 and onwards. [41] Ultramarine 15:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Frontpage Magazine is funded by right-wing political groups and is an activist political organization; the assertions in question are made in an editorial; and the material is clearly outside the Historian's area of expertise (a canadian slav specialist in U.S.-Canadian relations writing on Latin America? Can this guy even speak spanish?).
The MIPT terrorism page has been disallowed on at least one page, Jewish Defense League, as not conforming to WP:RS. I'm not saying that it can't be allowed here -- nor am i saying that the material presented there cannot be used -- but rather that it must be used judiciously and sparingly, and not as the basis for lengthy, off-topic commentary. Others, however, might object to it.
A sentence or two stating that the activities of the FMLN were considerd terrorism by the United States is fine; it might be accompanied by a sentence or two from the ICJ ruling in Nicaragua v. United States, where the ICJ ruled that U.S. claims against the Nicaraguan government vis a vis El Salvador are clearly specious and without merit would be, too. Stone put to sky 18:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have sources on Sandinista human rights violations against the east coast Miskito Indians? That would be a useful addition to this section.
Democide seems to be a neologism coined by one scholar and not picked up by anyone else. It's one thing to cite the guy, but there's no reason to use a made-up word that nobody understands. Notmyrealname 16:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
That seems to be a fairly substantial reliance on these sources. The rest of the sources he uses are a Hawaiian local newspaper, TIME articles and Wall St Journal. These may also use PCHR and State Dept, I can't check because they aren't online. Pexise 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The following text is completely unsourced. If any sources can be found, then that sourced material can be added back.
"Immediately after the Sandinistas gained power they began implementing agrarian reforms. Initial measures involved appropriating all Somoza owned land (apx. 20% of the arable land in Nicaragua) and nationalizing banking institutions giving the government control of credit. During their ten year duration in power their policies and reforms shifted and can be categorized in six different stages: agrarian reform from 1979-1981; recognition of the peasants in 1981; agrarian reform 1981-1982; acceleration and deceleration 1982-1984; prioritization of peasant in 1985; and changes in expropriation from 1986-1989
Initially the Sandinistas plan involved restructuring the country side. Their policies were geared to achieving four main goals: to recover 1978 production; maintain national unity; avoid conflict with the United States; and begin “transition structure” for the introduction to socialist methods of production. To attain these goals, the government implemented policies to promote and revive the Nicaraguan agrarian export economy through the establishment of state farms. The government recognized this as the most efficient means of creating a transition to socialism while avoiding conflict with the United States. The government guaranteed agricultural export growers credit (at negative interest rates). They also guaranteed profitable (although in practice this was not the case, such as coffee) export prices at the government’s expense (should international market prices drop). Rural labourers received a 30% increase in minimum wages. Consumer prices were kept low via cheap food policies and access to subsidized goods from state farms. Employment increased and the work day was shortened. In addressing peasant interests the government took three measures. First, in the spring of 1980 the government expropriated farms seized by the ATC (Farm workers Association). Secondly, they extended low interest credit to small producers and co-operatives. Thirdly, land rents were reduced by 85%. The resulting inflation due to the increased availability of currency without the corresponding increase in product meant that many peasants were unable to repay their loans. The cheap food policies also hurt many peasant food producers. Peasant support of the Sandinistas declined as they began aligning themselves with the conservative UPANIC (Nicaraguan Union Of Agricultural Productivity).
In 1981 there was a shift in agrarian policy. In August of 1981 the government discarded its credit programs. A few months prior, in March, 1981 the “Law of Forced Rents” was instituted. It required that all idle land be rented at legally established low rent rates. This was a response to the increase in demand for land by providing greater access to good quality low rent land. The second measure was the creation of UNAG (National Union of Farmers and Ranchers). It was an arm of the Sandinista government where the peasant farmers could re-align themselves and voice their concerns.
At this point there were three streams of opinion regarding the agrarian reform. Some favored collectivization via state farms, others favored allowing peasant choice in the matter, and others rejected the gradualist actions of the agrarian reform. In 1981, the institution of the Agrarian Reform Law and the Law of Cooperatives were introduced in August. These would maintain state collectivization but would not isolate it as the only path to socialist agricultural development. At the same time a voluntary gradualist policy was initiated while prioritizing both the cooperatives and ownership. Distribution of state resources such as land and credit would favor productive cooperatives. Distribution to individuals favored injured veterans and families with members that had been killed in the war or tortured by Somoza’s security forces. Additionally the government retrenched its former policies. Greater focus was placed on successful cooperatives. Credit policies were more discriminative favoring the most successful cooperatives. In the fall of 1982 these measures were institutionalized with the Programa Nacionale de Desarollo Cooperativo (National Cooperative Development Program). This involved an increased replacement of credit with government established producer prices to increase staple food production. Consumer prices were pushed down by consumer subsidies and price controls.
From the fall of 1982-1984 the Nicaraguan agrarian policies were influenced by the increase in counterrevolutionary activity and many of the governments policies were geared at gaining peasant support. This period of acceleration and deceleration refers to the increased preference in giving land titles to individuals as opposed to cooperatives. From 1979-1982, 952.82 square kilometres in new land titles was redistributed to individuals whereas in 1984 it increased tenfold to 9802.26 km². This period is also characterized by an increase in farming subsidies, producer prices and expansion of technical and training programs.
In 1985 the Sandinistas priority shifted due to an impending economic crisis. This phase is called the prioritization of the peasants. Land was distributed to individuals at a rate of 300% more than the prior six year period. Share croppers and peasants were also given titles to their land. The policy regarding the formation of the cooperatives relaxed allowing for greater diversity. With regards to macroeconomic policies the government was again emphasizing production. They increased producer prices, cut food imports, decreased credit to small and medium producers, cut consumer subsidies and prioritized production inputs for government investment.
After 1986 the agrarian policy experienced changes in expropriation, beginning January 1986. The policy favored limitations on expropriation and redistribution. They removed the bottom acreage limit for land expropriation; expropriated for public use or social interest; no longer compensated expropriation of idle land; allowed for the eligibility of landless peasants as recipients of redistributed land; and created a land bank established from all idle and abandoned lands.
In 1989 the agrarian reform was declared complete by Minister of agriculture, Jaime Wheelock. At this time, state farms constituted 11.7% of arable land; large capitalist land ownership, 6.4%; medium-sized capitalist producers, 9.0%; cooperatives, 13.8%; and peasant production 48.7%."
The report you were quoting, with 170 cadavers found in mass graves is about Guatemala. The Nicaragua section is the following page. Pexise 12:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
"In a 1992 annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights there are details of mass graves and investigations which suggest that mass executions had been carried out. One such grave contained 75 corpses of peasants who were believed to have been executed by government security forces pretending to be members of the contras. Another grave was also found in the town of Quininowas which contianed six corpses, believed to be an entire family killed by government forces when the town was invaded. A further 72 graves were reported as being found, containing bodies of people, the majority of whom were believed to have been executed by agents of the state and some also by the contras. However, there is no indication that these executions were part of government policy." [46]
That is inocrrect, there is no such mention of the contras, or at least not equal weight, in the source. In contrast,
"According to the information supplied to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, between January 14 and 15, 1992, seven common graves were discovered in El Bijagua district, Camoapa jurisdiction, department of Boaco. They contained the bodies of 75 people. The investigations conducted by human rights organizations found that they were the bodies of peasant farmers from the area who were murdered in November 1984, after being "recruited" by elements of State Security who pretended to be members of the Nicaraguan Resistance. They were taken to the site where the graves were discovered supposedly to receive military training. According to the reports received. The current Chief of the National Police, Commandant René Vivas Lugo, was Deputy Secretary of the Interior at the time these events occurred."
"The Inter-American Commission was also told that in May, a common grave containing the six corpses of an entire family were discovered in the town of Quininowas, Department of Jinotega. Human rights groups investigated and found that the killings were allegedly committed by members of the Ligero Cazador Battalion of the Sandinista People's Army, who invaded that town on February 7, 1985."
"By December 1992, human rights groups had received 72 reports of common graves and had investigated 13 of those reports. While the majority of those graves seem to contain the remains of individuals summarily executed by members of the Sandinista People's Army, some contain the remains of persons executed by members of the Nicaraguan Resistance." [47]
See [48]. Conservative sources are not excluded automatically, see NPOV. Explain please. Ultramarine 13:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
User:TDC, a well known and frequently -blocked [50] reverter on this page, continues to remove the caveats given to the Mitrokhin Archive. I find this improper for two reasons:
TDC claims Mitrokhin's material is cited, but look closely. The cites refer back to the Mitrokhin archive itself. This is circular verification. I believe removing the caveats given to the Mitrokhin material is tendentious at best, POV at worst.
Passage TDC removes:
Mitrokhin's claims were based on notes allegedly taken from the Former Soviet Union. Historian J. Arch Getty of the UCLA in the American Historical Review (106:2, April 2001): found Mitrokhin's material to be “fascinating," but he also questioned plausibility that Mitrokhin could have smuggled and transcribed thousands of KGB documents, undetected, over 30 years. Former Indian counter-terrorism chief Bahukutumbi Raman also questions both the validity of the material as well as the conclusions drawn from them. [52] Raman points out that Mitrokhin did not bring either the original documents or photocopies. Instead, he brought handwritten/typed notes of the contents of the documents.
I believe the caveats should be reinstated. Abe Froman 16:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
-Left indenting- I think the book qualifies as a reliable source in that it reports the material provided by Mitrokhin. That doesn't mean that the claims made in the book are reliable. Thus, if they are to be included, they need to be qualified. If a psychologist writes a scholarly book collecting stories of people who claim to be abducted by UFOs, that doesn't mean that you can cite the content as evidence of alien abductions (an extreme example, but hopefully you see the distinction). Notmyrealname 17:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Reliability of the Mitrokhin material was vetted by Andrew the author. There is a difference as to what constitues a WP:RS and what you may deem as "reliable". Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Why do you do this all the time, TDC? Mitrokhin is one source, and even then you extrapolate wildly from what he alleges. Mitrokhin maintained the DGI was primarily involved in Nicaragua, and just because the KGB had a bunch of agents in the FSLN that doesn't mean they were a pathetic appendage of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union, as you well know, had a bunch of agents in the US government in 1930s and 1940s: does that mean that Washington was being run from Moscow?
In addition, Mitrokhin himself states that agents, in their reports filed to HQ, would frequently exaggerate the amount of influence they had over a particular person. I think you need to throttle back a little to get a better perspective. MarkB2 02:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give a proper reference (book and page number) about the Carlos Fonseca/NORAD accusation? I can't seem to find it in the sources listed (and as cited above, Andrew seems to think the most notable Sandinista action against a US target was the attempted kidnapping of an ambassador). Notmyrealname 17:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)