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Really, I'm commenting on the page that is linked to. . . it's really biased and the only references are to righty websites. I have no idea if the content is accurate. Maybe someone who knows more than me can go check that page for accuracy. I don't come to wikipedia for summaries of "heritage.org" and frontpagemag.com.
This is a TERRIBLE article. It reads like neo-con propoganda screed - not a encyclopedia article. While I do not have the expertise to fix even the obvious mistakes this artcle needs a huge rewrite to remove factual errors, unsupported statements, obvious bias, and other errors. See http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front for an example of what an article should look like.
To echo the above, this is a TERRIBLE article. I have tried to improve it slightly, by modifying some of the most blatant Reaganite propaganda. Incidentally, it is BLATANT NPOV to have an article 'human rights abuses of the FSLN' and not have one on the 'human rights abuses of the Contras'. The comparison would be constructive. The FSLN were authoritarian Marxists who used murder and torture (occasionally) in a war situation. The Contras were psychotic animals who practiced rape murder torture and genocide because they enjoyed it, and as a matter of choice. Their human rights abuses also dwarfed those of the FSLN in terms of scale.
86.1.194.43
22:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This is all a bit confusing. Since the two contributors at the top said that this was a TERRIBLE article it has been heavy amended and is now quite good I think. Also people make references to parts of the article that have since been deleted. I suppose confusions like this are inevitable with live text. It might help if people dated and signed their comments then at least we would know who said what when. Just a thought SmokeyTheFatCat 17:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, honestly i can't be bothered to sign in to the page, but i do promise that i'll respect the rights of others to differing opinions. I'm a different poster than 86.1.194.43 up there; i'm from Taiwan and i really must concur w/86.1 up there: the article is a one-sided obscenity. I started off this latest round of edits about four days ago. While i'm willing to agree that the Sandinistas were somewhat authoritarian, i also would dispute even that as rather too simplistic a summation. The Sandinistas were basically an agrarian-based revolution that had a minority of Marxists and a good deal more populists, nativists, bouregoisie and tribalists as a contrasting majority. Certainly, the fundamental tenets of the party were nothing even vaguely like Leninist, Stalinist, or Maoist Marxism -- to put it bluntly, the Marxists had a snowball's chance in hell of getting any support for such an agenda. The long and the short of it is that the Contras were an obscenely brutal proxy army organized, funded and trained by conservative elements in the U.S. to fight the nativist, populist philosophy the Sandinistas represented. The irony is that, by creating the Contras, those same conservatives guaranteed that the Marxist elements in the Sandinista leadership would have the most fertile opportunity for wresting control of the party from the majority.
I wonder if someone could explain to me how a dirt-poor country like Nicaragua could "openly challenge economic interests of the United States in the region"?
Also: "prompting much fear in Washington". Fear of what? An attack on Texas??? -- Viajero 22:04, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Aren't the Sandanistas back in power at the moment? Didn't they win an election recently? Saul Taylor 06:19, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What the hell is this article, a joke!???
Here's an example of content presented in another encyclopedic entry of this length on this subject.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577584_5/revolution_and_rule.html#p141
This from MSN Encarta, which just updated their online encyclopedia. I'd never been too impressed with their history articles in the past, but the quality I've been seeing in many new articles lately, and the attention to recent historiography, is extremely impressive.
For now, I can hardly stomach having anything to do with such a page. The writers don't know much about Central America, it seems. 172 05:53, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Where are the other users with some grasp of the complexities of historical development in Central America or political struggles in peasant societies in general? I've already suffered enough from have to deal with this simplistic, ethnocentric mindset when working on articles related to political unrest in the developing world. So I'm not bothering with this article. Where's Viajero? Jtdirl? Tannin? Roadrunner? Other users who didn't graduate from the Fox News school of political sociology? 172 19:41, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
BTW, if you are done with this debate, I suppose, according to Wiki's POV policy, then I can delete the disclaimer. TDC
"Selective presentation of the data" means, I think, devoting nearly half the article to a list of the Sandinista's sins, while ignoring or skimming over some basic information that people might want to know, namely:
172 is right; this article, as it currently stands, is ludicrous. The article needs serious help (unfortunately, I don't know enough to fix it). -- No-One Jones 23:24, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hey, I think I have done my part and added valubale information on the Sandinistans, information that would have been overlooked if the usual suspects were the only contributors. TDC
I've been present at several meetings of the CDR "Comité de Défense de la Révolution" during the revolution in Burkina Faso. They were organised following the Cuban model. They role was much more complex than many imagine, they were at that time a space of real debate. I don't know how were the CDS in Nicaragua but I doubt reducing them to a "network of local spy" is compliant with NPOV. Ericd 00:05, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For reports about Human Rights in Latin Ãmerica see :
http://www.cidh.oas.org/pais.eng.htm
Ericd 10:55, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Do the Atlantic Indians speak standard English or a local Creole? -- Error 01:44, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I cut a couple of things from this article. There was too much discussion of how vile the Contras were. While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that better belongs in the article on the Contras. I also cut the "Human rights organizations that have published reports about Nicaragua" section, how is this useful information? - SimonP 05:11, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
I've read a lot of 172 comments on several political topics...it seems that every time a leftist dictator is the subject of conversation, a lot of "historical complexities" are discussed.
Fair enough, not a dictatorship, a provisional junta, followed by a "we're trying so hard to convince the U.S. that we're democratic" government.
Nope I haven't met any Sandinistas. Nicaragua ain't exactly high on my list of potential vacation spots. Trey Stone 04:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Aww, that's too bad, Nicaragua is quite beautiful. -- chaizzilla 23:45, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I would call a government with the power to decide how/who lives and dies without questions asked a dictatorship regardless of how they came to power.
Is it a coincidence the similarity in colors of the Sandinista flag and the Spanish CNT and Falange ones?
I'd say the flag was based on that of Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement, if it was based on anything at all. Red and black are international colours of revolution. [[User:DO'Neil| DO' И eil]] 06:49, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
It also looks a lot like the flag of the ELN. See http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/co}eln.gif Descendall 09:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The sandinista flag was used for the first time by Sandino's Ejército Defensor de la Soberania Nacional back in the late 1920s. The red color stands for Freedom and the black for Death. His motto was actually "Freedom or Death".
The parts on the Contra War need serious clean-up. The way it keeps referring to the "CIA-backed war" when the article has already clearly established U.S. involvement and the "freedom fighters" sentence are emotionally-slanted POV. Trey Stone 07:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And I was also under the impression that the opposition (if there really was much) in the 1984 election operated under such constraints that they were made essentially useless. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Trey Stone 04:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I highly question this page's neutrality. It could not have been more pro-Sandinista if Ortega himself wrote it. Moreover, nowhere are the atrocities the Sandinistas committed against the people prior to seizing power described. The part about Somoza and the National Guard having superior weapons is also absurd. The Sandinistas were well-trained, highly efficient fighters trained by the PLO, Castro, the USSR, Red China, etc. Nowhere is it mentioned that Somoza's men were virtually out of ammo due to the U.S.'s arms embargo (which is the real reason the National Guard lost).
I suppose the GN's tanks and aircraft were outmatched by the FSLN's automatic weapons? No evidence of Red China supporting the FSLN. Since the 70's China had squared up against the USSR and could be found working with US in Angola (backing the FPLA) and Cambodia (backing Pol Pot). They also recognised Pinochet in 73...but I digress.....Also no proof of USSR backing the FSLN before the FSLN asked for help. No doubt PLO helped out but hardly a factor. A piss poor rebel force in the West Bank is hardly going to churn out a highly efficient latino army! Please use some common sense.
Read Nicaragua Betrayed, by Anastasio Somoza and Jack Cox. It's loaded with documentation, including Sandinista atrocities (which are also found in the February 20, 1980 Congressional Record), USSR, Red Chinese, Panamanian, Venezuelan, etc. support of the Sandinistas, U.S. support of the Sandinistas prior to and after their seizure of power, etc. The USSR supplied weapons through Cuba. Venezuela's president (I don't remember his name, so please excuse me) was a personal friend of Pedro Joaquin Chamorro (which explains his support of the Sandinistas). Costa Rica allowed Sandinistas to operate within its borders. Many Sandinistas received training at the Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow, in Cuba, and in the Middle East by the PLO. All of the afore-mentioned nations provided arms, as well. The National Guard could hardly have had 'superior weapons,' if the U.S. imposed an arms embargo and prohibited all other nations from providing them with arms.
Is this a joke - 'Nicaragua Betrayed' by SOMOZA ? Somoza was a ruthless and corrupt dictator who killed thousands and who never held an election in all the time he was in power. He even sold the people's blood from blood banks. None of this stopped the USA supporting him of course. SmokeyTheFatCat 15:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Costa Rica is an exceedingly neutral country and has no regular army. There is very little they could have done to the Sandinistas (or the Contras later on for that matter!) even if they wanted to.
As for China, that's wrong. They supported UNITA, not FPLA.
Well the US, China and South Africa all backed the FPLA until it was routed by the MPLA (with alot of Cuban help) during its march on the capital. It ceased to be a serious force after that hence the backing of UNITA by the very same nations. Check your facts. Not inclined to believe a book written by those particular experts. and stop calling it RED China.
1. Took out the entire Cuban Section, too much POV, a tad paranoid and overblown without any real proof.
Without any real proof eh? All of it is taken from various sources. I could list them if you like. TDC 23:42, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
2. Polished some bits,
a. US pressure forcing the FSLN to change its policies on the Atlantic Coast seemed a bit pro-US. Changed this to saying widespread international condemnation.
(counterpoint: surely the US arming Contra death squads in the region was partly responsible for the crimes committed by the FSLN. This would also be POV so I decided to make it the neutral version above)
b. The 1984 elections. Several groups did not claim the elections were free and fair, many international organisations/observers including the UN certified the elections as free and fair. The old version left the validity of the elections in doubt when only the groups with a vested interest (i.e. the U.S.) refused to recognise them as such.
c. Why the FSLN lost the elections. Added a bit pointing out the US has always threatened Nicaragua economicly if they dared elect the FSLN, and gave the most recent example of this which was in El Salvador.
Well TDC if you got em please list them here. For now that section is removed. Until you furnish up some proper proof from NPOV sources I suggest you change that paragraph to pointing out cuban assistance rather than implying they were in the driving seat. For example the bits about DGI involvement in training and helping the FLSN in prison breaks and assasinations is quite relevant and should be in the article. Its the tone more than anything else that is POV
The tone that is POV, I don’t quite understand? Most of the information is an amalgamation of 2 sources: The Mitrokhin Archive and an article from Global Security is [3].
This is a nice quote from Daniel Ortega
Why do authoritarians that are communist posers (that's who they really are) always talk of struggle? Does anyone seriously believe that these people had good intentions when they nationalized ownership of the land from "Somoza collaborators?" It would be better to give it back to the original owners (the natives who farmed the land). While most of the criticisms are allegations, this revolution deserves the same criticism that the Nazis, Stalin Communists, and Falangists have. They are all authoritarian collectivists who will use any ideology to exert control on the uneducated poor. This is a continual theme in Central American politics, when you solely depend on the government for your freedom, you will not get it. Overall, the article should be more critical.
I'm am just trying say that all these types of revolutionaries tend to have the same themes. Glorifying a few leaders for doing atrocities. You can even make the same case when we glorify our own "heroes." I see Communists the same way I see fascists, they want to control my life. Going to college and seeing kids wearing "che" clothing is offensive and ironic. Che was a revolutionary against American Imperialists, (ignore the fact that the Communist nations such as the USSR occupied many sovereign nations)and that same type of contrarian attitude which is protected under our consitution were squashed under these regimes. This hits home for me because my Mother's family fled from Nicaragua during the revolution. My mother thought there would be change. The same corruption still exists while the poor starve in many parts of the nation. Overt nationalism in any form can be dangerous and rob the uneducated poor.
At my college,the funniest observation was a Che computer wallpaper on a toshiba laptop made in China. The dual ironies of America being chummy with a communist nation and computer that would never have been developed if Che had his way proves my point. Communism has never survived because people are not called on to protect themselves. The next time I hear, "what will the government do for us?" I see the US losing its soul. I do have primary sources of speeches my Grandpa made to Esteli condeming Somoza's regime. I could scan them. I am quite annoyed by the one-sidedness of my professors. I guess I am a communist-hunter, and proud of it. There have been no successful true communist nations. The best we can get is a mixed economy that ensures individual liberty.
"In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners." (Wikipedia)
"Come on you pack of drug fiends, come on and murder us on our own land. I am waiting for you on my feet at the head of my patriotic soldiers, and I don't care how many of you there are. You should know that when this happens, the destruction of your mighty power will make the Capitol shake in Washington, and your blood will redden the white dome that crowns the famous White House where you plot your crimes." (quoted in Zimmermann)
"Facing the fact of not being heard on the political stage, Mao responded to Liu and Deng by launching the Cultural Revolution in 1966, in which the Communist hierarchy was circumvented by giving power directly to the Red Guards, groups of young people, often teenagers, who set up their own tribunals. The Revolution led to the destruction of much of China's cultural heritage and the imprisonment of a huge number of Chinese intellectuals, amongst other social chaos." (Wikipedia)
Its pretty much the truth of everything. Its ironic that saying the Sandinistas were an oppressive regime is considered a POV, but then again some people still dont believe the Earth is a sphere. My parents also grew up fighting Somoza, they weren't compelled to leave until they were so violated by Che Ortega's regime. They were far from being capitalist conspirators or "burges", they only wanted to have the freedom to debate like we are doing now. Reagan didn't care too much about the fate of Nicaraguan individuals, but the majority of Nicaraguans would pick Reagan over the Sandinistas except those who would directly benefit from their personal relationships with socialist leaders. ( Jpineda84 01:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC))
Why do right wing ignoramuses that are pseudo-intellectual posers treat WP talk pages as if they were a forum for spewing their ill-informed political rants? -- Jibal 10:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
...the National Assembly unanimously passed an Autonomy Law in 1987 that made Nicaragua the first American nation to recognise its multiethnic nature, guaranteeing the economic, cultural, linguistic and religious rights demanded by the indigenous groups of the Atlantic Coast.
Was it really the first? Surely the United States and Canada had also done something by the mid-1980s to recognize indigenous rights, however unsatisfactorily from some points of view. In the U.S., for instance, tribal treaties were already being enforced anew, and reservations have had autonomous self-government on a par with the states since the 1920s, IIRC. Perhaps the author meant "Latin American nation"? Or maybe the claim of being the first "to recognise its multiethnic nature" isn't really tenable on closer examination? -- Skoosh 19:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
One wonder's why this article does not mention Ortega's properties, the ones he confiscated from "Somocistas" for the people and then held on to apparently for the "good of the people." xe xe (El Jigüe, 11/1/2005)
It was not only Somocistas, property from exiles were confiscated as well.
Yeah Ortega wanted to make sure no dirty capitalist got their hands on those sweet Managuan mansions by moving in and raising up that beautiful black and red flag of equality on the lawn. What a great guy, I wonder if he changed the welcome mat.
==Reasons of FSLN electoral losses== (or, an anon defending his edits)
Hostile U.S. policy towards the FSLN has been a reason for their electoral defeats: 1. By channeling funds and exercising influence, the U.S. have made sure that there have never been strong two right-wing candidates up for election to ensure that even if the PLC is factually divided in two, it will always run only one presidential candidate.
2. Even after the U.S. sponsored 1990 victory, there have been repeated threats to cut down aid should the FSLN ever return to power. In a country as economically dependent of the United States as Nicaragua, this means directly manipulating the electoral process. Not that the U.S., acting in it's own interest, shouldn't do it, but it is a fact worth mentioning.
The first link does not explicitly mention a US aid cut-off or embargo in the event of a Sandinista victory (maybe I missed it though) and even says the US took a lesser role than in 1990. The second link reads like a pro-FSLN propaganda piece and only mentions that it would not be in "American interests" if Ortega won. No specific threats were detailed. The third link does not mention US specific pressure either. CJK 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
3. The contras were, for all intents and purposes, U.S. sponsored puppets. They did their best, not to achieve military victory, but to do as much damage as possible, by attacking schools, hospitals, co-operatives. Not to forget the CIA-supported mining of Nicaraguan harbors. If this, plus the economic embargo (which by the way violated a trade agreement that both countries had signed) doesn't merit to "U.S. sponsored aggression", what does?
The idea that the contras were U.S. puppets is frankly incorrect. This was basically the impression that the Sandista government wanted to give to international sympathizers. To get a really good understanding of who the Contras really were it would be useful to look at''The Real Contra War: Highlander Peasant Resistance in Nicaragua by Timothy C. Brown. He has very good documentation (half of the volume is actual photocopies of authentic documents of the post-war disarmament lead by the new democratic government) concering the numbers of Contras who laid down their weapons after the 1990 elections as well as their orientations. In fact, it is a huge misconception that the Contras were in any way controlled or concieved by the CIA. I think the perpetuation of this idea has little to do with evidence and more with anti-American sentiments as well as the willingness to listen to people such as Noam Chomsky who rarely have evidence to back up their claims. The "Contras", a Sandinista term, actually became active before the Reagan administration, and at the time were known as the MILPAS. The MILPAS were the large bulk of the resistence which came from the northern mountains. These were peasant farmers, and represented the majority of the resistence. The MILPAS later joined the U.S. backed FDN which composed of many ex-Gaurdia. The Gaurdia were only a tiny percentage of the resistence. Human Rights abuses went both ways and accusations of human rights abuses was much easier to point out by the Sandinista government since they had control of the media and we able to villainize the resistence (Communist governments are experts at propoganda ex. most North Koreans think they live in the wealthiest nation in the world). If you study Nicaraguan history, you will see that the struggle of the highlander peasants and the people of the plains began way before the Nicaraguan Revolution. In essence your claim that the contras did not want to achieve victory is baseless. Farmers did not want to be controlled by an authoritarian government that would change their traditional way of life. In a poor country like Nicaragua, the propertied "bourgoisie" were in fact the dirt poor farmers. ( Jpineda84 04:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
a:"Agression" is a POV propaganda word. All that stuff can be mentioned without calling it "agression". (Did "Cuban aggression" oust Samoza? Was the El Salvador insurgency kept alive by "Nicaraguan aggression"?)
OK. But "American aggression" could be better worded as "U.S. sponsored war and embargo". CJK 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Rewording and NPOVing is of course welcome as long as the facts are there. =) -- 80.221.37.23 02:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Can the use of poor military tactics (the part about Russian style wave attacks) be considered a human rights abuse? Obviously they were stupid tactics to use for a number of reasons, as noted, but an abuse of human rights? I don't think so.
The conscripts used included young teenagers who were forcibly taken into service by soldiers waiting for them at places like schools and buses and then used them as cannon fodder at battles. How is this not a human rights abuse? Kaven06 06:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I do believe this would be considered human rights abuses. A nation has the right of introducing conscription, how ever there are regulations to be followed and conscripts must be given proper notification and time to appeal. However, Sandista conscription was unorganized an ill prepared. Many conscripts were in fact kidnapped from their schools and taken to the front the very next day. ( Jpineda84 03:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
This article has many POV claims which are unreferenced. This is a US-centric article. Beside, it is important to note that the Sandinistas organized the elections which they lost; after all, if they were so bad, they could have just indefinitely postpone them... Tazmaniacs
They were forced into elections. The contra war had forced them to sign a treaty (Esquipulas II, 1987) guaranteeing elections. After they lost they not only stole property, but government-controlled businesses to guarantee funds for their party. Kaven06 06:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
This is true, there was huge international pressure for Ortega to call elections. President Arias of Costa Rica, a staunch critic of the Sandinistas, was given a Nobel Prize in his part for creating a coalition of Latin American nations to force a peace treaty. Also, the Contra War was a huge factor. Once the FDN handed in its weapons it was obvious that they had a popular following from within. ( http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureates/1987/arias-bio.html) ( Jpineda84 03:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
It was my understanding that under the new constitution, elections took place every six years. First one was in 1984, the second one in 1990. So it was a regularly scheduled election. My take on the FSLN overall is that they did a lot of really good things and a lot of really screwed up things too. Loveandlight
I've reverted edits by 66.68.69.130 ( talk · contribs). The quote he added was not only irrelevant, but mangled from the original which described Blandon and Meneses by name, not the Contras. — Viriditas | Talk 08:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Now before someone wipes my recent edits away claiming that I have seen Red Dawn one too many times, please come here first. All material added is referenced, and considering its significance and the way it will alter the article I realize there will be some “debate”. Ten Dead Chickens 21:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well it seems that no one used the talk page, so here goes.
Pg 41, Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili. The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World.
Pg 40 Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB Pg 181 Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili. The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World.
I know ... I know ... shades of Red Dawn, but what are you going to do, the truth is, as they say, stranger than fiction.
Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
First, why are these citations on the talk page? They belong in the article itself. There is a referencing/citation system now available; why aren't you using it?
Second, various comments you have added need to be attributed to someone, not presented as fact in the editorial voice, such as:
I have tried to verify your citations with only partial success:
The "search inside" function of Amazon does not indicate any reference of this kind, on page 41 or any other page [10]
I can find the Shelepin cite but not the one about Fonseca [11].
The "search inside" function of Amazon does not indicate any reference of this kind, on pages 44-47, or any other page [12]
The "search inside" function of Amazon does not indicate any reference of this kind, on pages 48, or any other page [13] [14]
I can find the material cited on page 363 but not the Honduras/Costa Rica text [15]
The actual text reads: By 1970, in the Centre's view, the DGI [the "KGB's Cuban ally"] had effectively "expropriated" the Sandinista ISKRA guerilla group. As the text did not elaborate on what ISKRA was, on what grounds do you extrapolate that it concerned the Sandinistas as a whole? [16]
A couple of comments: as ex-intelligence sources go, Mitrokhin is a decent one. Still:
Viajero and TDC, it would be very helpful to try to get the specific citations into the article itself. Viajero, it would be very helpful if you could give a comprehensive list of what you dispute, so that the issues can be identified and then addressed one by one. And, TDC, it would be very useful if you would (1) look through your citations and make sure that you have them right; where Viajero cannot find things, you probably should quote at least the start of the relevant passages here on the talk page so that they can be found. (2) Look through what you wrote and see if there things that you wrote that are problematic per Viajero's remark that begins, "Second, various comments you have added need to be attributed to somone…" If you've got attribution, cite it. If not, could you please help mitigate this conflict by just removing these yourself? It would speed the inevitable. - Jmabel | Talk 19:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Viajero, You were looking in the wrong book [17] [18], try this : [19]. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
What's this? Come on... let's get serious around here. This article reflects an absolute ignorance on Nicaraguan history. I wonder if the author actually lived in Nicaragua or if he just tuned in FoxNews, like someone said here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.98.170.169 ( talk • contribs) 7 April 2006.
Indeed. How many citizens of the USA ever killed by the Sandinistas? The answer is a bit fat zero. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SmokeyTheCat ( talk • contribs) 8 July 2006.
This seems a little bit biased? Maybe it's just me. It says:
"...the revolutionaries were perceived as proponents of “godless communism” that posed a threat to the traditionally privileged place that the Church occupied within Nicaraguan society."
It does not seem inconceivable, to me, that the Church would oppose "godless communism" because it placed itself vocally in opposition to any sort of faith in a man they thought (and still think, if memory serves me correctly) was God incarnate. It is not the 13th century, Innocent III is no longer in power; I am sure that if Ecclesiastical officials were interested only in living lives of privilege, and not in their faith, there would be far better ways of achieving their goals than through the church. This just seems logically more believable than what's up there now, to me.
There were three priests in the FSLN government. There was absolutely nothing ever done to oppose or hinder church activities in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas. A far cry from El Salvador in the same period where many priests were killed, many nuns raped and the Archbishop Ramos murdered. SmokeyTheFatCat 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.172.205.160 ( talk • contribs) 19 April 2006.
You are thinking of Archbishop Oscar Romero, not Ramos. I recall another incident when Pope John Paul II visited Nicaragua and would not allow the new guerilla government to kiss his ring because of the "blood on their(Sandinistas) hands." The only time he ever had to ask an audience at mass to quiet down was that same day when he lost patience and yelled "SILENCIO."
I remember French Catholics collecting money for Nicaragua around 1982.... Ericd 15:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, "Opposition" is capitalized. Is this referring to some particular entity (in which case it should probably be linked) or not (in which case it should probably be lower-case). - Jmabel | Talk 00:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, in this context "the Somoza government" is going to be very unclear to anyone who doesn't know the history, since it refers to government by at least three different members of the Somoza family; linking to one of them does not really clarify.
Further, Sandino was not the first to oppose Anastasio Somoza Delbayle, just the first to lead an armed opposition. - Jmabel | Talk 00:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
You're thinking of Archbishop Oscar Romero, not Ramos. I recall another incident when Pope John Paul II visited Nicaragua and would not let the Sandinistas kiss his ring because of the blood on their hands. Later at mass, he had to ask the crowd to quiet down, the only time he ever yelled at an audience of one of his sermons?
_Marco Murillo (DC)
The article is turning into a mess! Multiple reference sections, repeated information, that often contradicts itself, and boatloads of uncited material. Probably needs a rewrite. Suggestions for improvement? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how taking out all references to the election of 1984 makes for a better article. SmokeyTheFatCat 21:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Nope they were all gone until I reinstated a mention. SmokeyTheFatCat 21:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
What objections, specifically, do you have to either the factual conclusions, or the use of Mitrokhin’s material? No one has seriously questions any of it, and it is all derived from primary sources, namely documents he copied and smuggled out in the early 90’s. Please be specific, as much of this was discussed in a prior thread, Talk:Sandinista National Liberation Front#Recent Edits, and objectionable material was removed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
(106:2, April 2001): "Mitrokhin was a self-described loner with increasingly anti-Soviet views . . . Maybe such a potentially dubious type (in KGB terms) really was able freely to transcribe thousands of documents, smuggle them out of KGB premises, hide them under his bed, transfer them to his country house, bury them in milk cans, make multiple visits to British embassies abroad, escape to Britain, and then return to Russia, and carry the voluminous work to the west, all without detection by the KGB . . . It may all be true. But how do we know?."
Without weighing in on the immediate matter at hand (I haven't read the cited material), there is absolutely no requirement that one cite online material. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources. - Jmabel | Talk 06:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Following,
I thought I would begin a discussion about the issue. As I said earlier:
P.S. I think that the article about Fonseca as it is, with "alleged KGB" in the introduction is how it should be, although if you want to discuss it further I'm open.- Atavi 16:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Who says Mitrokhin's a "reliable" witness? Simply because prosecutions might arise from a literary work that involved the collaboration between someone who calls himself a "KGB defector" (absolutely unverifiable) and an admitted agent of MI6, one of the most active propaganda and intelligence organizations in Europe? Come, come, now -- unless there is verifiable academic sourcing for these assertions, they should at the very least remain qualified in the article. Media figures and politicians are no less liable to the artistry of a good con -- and far more likely to be targetted -- than any other Joe Blow. 61.231.8.107 14:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
TDC edited out mentions of the fact that the contras were a proxy army that primarily engaged in terrorist attacks against civilian targets, calling them "unsourced." Here's a source:
Edgar Chamorro was a former member of the contra directorate who became disillusioned after being given the CIA's now-infamous instruction manual giving advice on how the contras should conduct economic sabotage and terrorism. His book thoroughly documents both the fact that the contras were a U.S. proxy army, and the fact that they avoided confrontations with the Sandinista army and focused instead on terrorist attacks against civilian targets. Both of these facts are well-supported by numerous other contemporaneous reports, including for example reports by human rights groups such as Amnesty International or Americas Watch. -- Sheldon Rampton 17:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not true that no one else agrees with Abe, and TDC should stop using this kind of hectoring, insulting language. I agree with him that Mitrokhin's claims are controversial and certainly suspect at best with regard to the notion that the Sandinistas ever attempted any kind of "intelligence and sabotage" operation inside or even near U.S. borders.
I don't know why TDC finds it "interesting" that I "never commented on the material above." Unlike him, I'm not obsessed with this article. He comes back several times a day to hector people on the talk page, to insert poorly researched, tendentious and factually flawed claims, always aimed at inserting his point of view ("Sandinistas = communist conspiracy = bad"). I, on the other hand, rarely edit this article and rarely comment on the talk page.
In response to TDC's refusal to recognize that the contras were a "proxy army," I've added a reference to an essay from the National Security Archives, which quotes former Edgar Chamorro as follows: "We were a proxy army, directed, funded, receiving all intelligence and suggestions, from the CIA. We had no plan for Nicaragua, we were working for American goals." As a member of the contra directorate, Chamorro was certainly in a better position to know whereof he spoke than for example Mitrokhin, who had no direct role in shaping Soviet policy toward the Sandinistas and whose claims are all based on his interpretations of documents whose authenticity remains unproven.
I've retained TDC's mention of the role played by Argentina's military dictatorship in supporting the contras. It's true that they were involved early. Most scholars regard Argentina as an agent of U.S. policy in this regard, but Ariel C. Armony has argued that Argentina was acting on its own initiative rather than as a U.S. surrogate. In any case, I have no objection to noting that the contras' other support came from a military junta that killed thousands of its own citizens and then went to war with Britain over the Falkland Islands.
As for TDC's objection to the use of the word "terrorism," this is an accurate description of the contras' main strategy, and it is incorrect for TDC to write that avoiding attacks on the military is somehow reflective of "classical insurgency techniques aimed at civilian populations." As Wikipedia's article on guerrilla warfare states, "Guerrillas in wars against foreign powers do not principally direct their attacks at civilians, as they desire to obtain as much support as possible from the population as part of their tactics." However, terrorists do use "violence, or threat of violence targeted against innocents or non-combatants ... to bring about compliance with specific political, religious, ideological, and personal demands." Indeed, the targeting of civilian noncombatants is precisely what distinguishes terrorism from other types of warfare. If TDC wishes to argue against this meaning for the word "terrorist," perhaps he can show us where he has tried to make similar arguments against the use of this term in reference to Hezbollah or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to conclude that this is just another example of someone objecting to the word "terrorist" when the terrorist in question happens to be someone they like.
Finally, I've revised TDC's absurd claim that "the Sandinistas' long history and growing ties with the Soviet Union and Cuba" made "peaceful alignment and cooperation with the U.S. ... impossible." It certainly wasn't impossible. There are numerous examples of countries that managed to have peaceful alignment and cooperation with the U.S. and the Soviet bloc simultaneously, so this clearly wasn't "impossible." Examples range from Finland to India. Another (quite deplorable) example is the peaceful alignment and cooperation that both the U.S. and USSR provided to Saddam Hussein's regime during the Iran-Iraq war. --Sheldon Rampton 06:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
There was a very good book/pamphlet of this title published by Oxfam some 20 years ago, long since out of print, in robust defence of the Sandinistas. Sandinista policies (land reform, literacy campaigns, healthcare provision etc.) were very popular among the people but threatened the profits of United Fruit(Dole) and Del Monte by taking some of their vast estates of land and redistrubuting them to the landless poor. Such a scheme of government would have been very popular throughout Central America and the Carribean. This was not acceptable to the Reagan administration and so all the nonsense about the 'Soviet threat' was made up and the Contras hugely supported. As was the case in Chile 10 years earlier profits for US-based multinationals were more important than human life. SmokeyTheFatCat 18:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
A dispute currently exists over the inclusion of material from Vasili Mitrokhin. Does the material conform with WP:RS and should details relevant to the subject be included in the article without prejudice?
Discuss. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 23:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph from the human rights abuses section:
I'm unaware of any evidence suggesting that this was the case. Moreover, it is highly implausible. During the entire war, the Contras never held a city for so much as a day. I remember during the late 1980s there was an incident when this fact was being discussed during congressional debates, with members of Congress saying that they were reluctant to approve further funding for a military insurgency that had shown no ability to capture or hold territory for any significant period of time. Moreover, Soviet support for the Sandinistas continued until they lost power in the 1990 elections, so the notion that "outspending the Soviet Union into bankruptcy" curtailed military support to the Sandinistas runs contrary to known facts. This whole paragraph seems to me to be nothing but ideologically-motivated fantasy, and if someone wants to restore it, they have an obligation to provide credible citations for it. -- Sheldon Rampton 06:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
TDC, I sense your influence on this article in the Cuban influence sections. While no one doubts the importance of Cuban teachers, doctors, and others in the Sandinista’s programs, there are a few sections that need citation. There are also a few sections that seem to be tendentiously written.
“By 1970 the DGI had managed to train hundreds of Sandinista guerrilla leaders and had vast influence over the organization,” you write. “Vast” is an evaluative word that rarely belongs in an encyclopedia article, especially when it is such a powerful assertion about something that is little known and impossible to objectively measure: you’re talking about the influnce of the DGI on the Sandinista organization.
You follow by noting that the DGI’s influence after 1979, apparently already “vast,” still managed to expand “rapidly.” Your proof? Nicaragua and Cuba re-established diplomatic relations. And a DGI agent was named as the ambassador to Cuba. I’m sure you’re well aware that the CIA regularly operates out of US foreign embassies. I just don’t see how your characterizations are supported by the evidence you present.
You go on to present Álvaro Baldizón, a Sandinista defector I’ve never heard of, as the source of the amazing allegation that Cuban “advice” was treated as if it were “orders” by the Sandinistas in contact with the “over 2,500” DGI operatives “at all levels of the Nicaraguan government.” You use one defector to support the allegation that, apparently, the entire Nicaraguan government was a puppet regime of the Cubans. You are talking about a situation that is almost impossible to objectively measure and so it’s questionable if it should be an encyclopedia article at all. Your support for your amazing argument, again, is a single defector.
Later on you provide such unsourced and amazingly evaluative gems as this: “While the Cubans would like to have helped more in the development of Nicaragua towards socialism, they realized that they were no match for the United States' pressure on Latin America.” They realized they were no match for the United States? Really? When did Fidel say that?
Defying rational belief, it goes on. Again, unsourced: “The commission has overseen approximately 300 million dollars (U.S) between the years 1979 and 1987 in assistance to Nicaragua and according to Prevost it does not include military aid or the cost for schooling Nicaraguans in Cuba.” I assume somewhere in Prevost’s writing you can find this figure. I wonder, however, if, in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, it would be possible to find any article anywhere that asserts a fact and cites a single author who wrote a book on the subject as the source (in the article, no less).
Another fact I’ve never seen: “Critics of the campaign contend that this effort was thinly disguised communist indoctrination, and point to the fact that elementary school books taught basic mathematics with illustrations of hand grenades.”
You cite Prevost so many times, in these and following paragraphs, that I begin to get the feeling that you are student writing a book report.
I don’t want you to think I’m picking on you. The paragraph about the Mitrokin Archive was obviously written by one of your detractors and contemptuously sums up Mitrokin’s work and dismisses it. I don’t see how that tone belongs in wikipedia either. I just mention the Cuban parts (apparently written by you) because they are such a glaring departure from what an encyclopedia article should look like.
I could find a book written by someone who published in a relatively mainstream press to argue anything I wanted: from “the CIA staged the moon landing on a stage in Burbank” to authors who denied the existence of the Holocaust. Encyclopedia articles should cover information that is widely known by governments and non-governmental agencies with a neutral point of view. -- MarkB2 22:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the human rights section that was deleted recently by an anonymous IP number. However, I've rewritten it somewhat, in particular a passage which alleged that Amnesty International had documented abuses in prison. While it's true that Amnesty documented a number of human rights abuses committed under the Sandinistas, I don't believe that their reports described the specific abuses mentioned in the paragraph I removed. Also, AI and other human rights groups noted a number of positive achievements and reforms by the Sandinistas in the area of human rights, so I've noted those as well.
It appears that someone (perhaps the same individual) has blanked the contents of the FSLN human rights abuses article. I haven't restored it, because the contents that were blanked are clearly problematic and extremely POV. For starters, they rely exclusively on right-wing sources. Moreover, the blanked contents go well beyond the claims made even by those right-wing sources. For example, the article relies on a Heritage Foundation article which alleges persecution of Jews, and claims that "Nicaragua was and is home to many Jews" — a claim that is contradicted by the Heritage article. In fact, Nicaragua's Jewish population was very small. (The Heritage article says the total Jewish population in Nicaragua shortly before the revolution was only 200.) The section on Jean-Paul Genie also contains a number of glaring inaccuracies, and the article throughout is marred by numerous spelling errors and other obvious flaws.
I think it would be fine to have a sub-article examining the Sandinista human rights record, but it should be based on reputable human rights observers such as Amnesty International, America's Watch or Human Rights Watch — not on ultra-rightist publications such as FrontPage Magazine. Also, it should have a less POV name. Instead of "FSLN human rights abuses," I would suggest "Sandinista human rights record." -- Sheldon Rampton 04:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't even know where to begin. There are plenty of errors. Names, dates and historical data are inaccurate. This article needs to be rewritten asap. I don't know if the author himself has ever been in Nicaragua. There is a lot of imagination involved in this... crap... sorry but I can't find another word for this.
For example, The "Group of Twelve," a group of "indignant businessmen????," are pictured as "bandidos" that stole money from Somoza that was originally intended to feed and to clothe the homeless after the 1972 earthquake... Hm, wait a minute... wasn't the Group of Twelve founded five years later by initiave of the FSLN? Where they not a group of intelectuals and prominent figures from Nicaraguan society in those years?
Or later on when Carlos Fonseca and Daniel Ortega (in a post-Somoza Nicaragua) acknowledged that the FSLN owed a great debt to Cuba. Eh.... wasn't Fonseca assassinated by the Guardia Nacional, three years before the FSLN took power in Nicaragua??? Now, suddenly, the author of this article is a psychic and we didn't know!!! Talkin' about ghosts...
And so further... I can go on and on and on... but I think you got the point... Rewrite! ASAP!
-- Magicartpro 07:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll give this a article a try when I have some time. I'm currently updating some info and expanding the articles on the Nicaraguan municipalities. The first suggestion I can think of is shortening the introduction a bit and leave only two paragraphs.
Paragraph 1: Keep it. (The Sandinista National... ...he was never a Marxist)
Paragraph 2: (The Sandinistas were the product of three disparate social and ideological groups) is inaccurate. The FSLN split into three factions in the 70's. Suggestion; Delete.
Paragraph 3 & 4: (After emerging... and During this nascent period) belongs, the first to the section Sandinistas vs. Contras and the second to Opposition (since 1990)
Paragraph 5: Keep it. (Today the FSLN remains ... ...has left a lasting impression in the country)
Magicartpro 00:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My observations on the History 1961–1970 section. Maybe to much to read for you, but if you all agree I will begin editing this first part and the introduction. Let me know. Cheers!
The original text is in cursive.
The Sandinistas were initially several disparate groups that came together from various Nicaraguan regions to cooperate in the overthrow of the Somoza regime. In general, the groups were organized locally from among peasants and aboriginal inhabitants...
Sandino had several aboriginal inhabitants or miskitos in his army in the early 30's, but the indigenous population of the Nicaraguan Atlantic Coast never simpathized with the struggle of the new Sandinistas. There are three reasons for that; 1) The repression and brutality of the Somoza regime was focused mainly on the population of the urban and rural areas of the Pacific Coast. 2) The North-American transnational companies dominated the economy of the small towns in the Nicaraguan Atlantic Coast and were seen as a progressive force that brought modernity to these areas (electrical power, etc.) 3) Cultural reasons. The young Sandinistas had no experience in dealing with the ethnic population of Nicaragua (miskitos, sumos, etc.)
On the other hand, the people involved in the incipient insurrectional groups of the 50's came from diverse social and economical backgrounds. They were not only local peasants, there were also students, workers and leaders of the local oligarchy and traditional parties.
The first of these groups was organized by Eden Pastora, an activist who was later to become more widely known as "Commander Zero". Pastora organized his group -- which was later to take the official name ADRE -- in the late 1950's, and was the first group to call itself "Sandinistas".
1) Pastora's group was known as Frente Revolucionario Sandino (FRS) and was founded in 1957. Pastora abandoned the armed struggle in 1963 after an amnisty and becomes member of the Nicaraguan Conservative Party (PCN), in oppposition to Somoza.
After a short stay in prision in 1967 Pastora integrates the FSLN for the first time. That year, the Sandinistas suffered an historical defeat in Pancasán, and Pastora goes in to exile. He returned to Nicaragua and to the FSLN two years later and remained there until 1973 when he abandoned the armed struggle once again and moves to Costa Rica. In 1976 he joined the FSLN for the last time. In 1981 he abandoned the FSLN for the third time and goes into exile.
In 1982 Pastora organized a his own army against the Sandinista government which took the name Democratic Revolutionary Alliance (ARDE). Pastora abandones the struggle in 1986. He returns to Nicaragua in 1989 to support the Social Christian Party (PSC) in the upcoming elections of 1990.
2) The other group of Sandinistas, under the direction of Carlos Fonseca, Santos López (lieutenant in Sandino's army), Noel Guerrero, Tomás Borge, Silvio Mayorga and others took the name Frente de Liberación Nacional (FLN) in 1961.
Carlos Fonseca was until then a member of the Nicaraguan Socialist Party (PSN), together with Noel Guerrero. Guerrero was one of the most influent leaders inside the FLN and opposed to call the FLN Sandinista. His believe was that Sandino wasn't radical enough. Sandino fought against the U.S. ocuppation, but he was not an anti-imperialist or a true socialist in Guerrero's eyes.
The break-up of Fonseca with Guerrero and the change of the name of the organisation to FSLN in order to include the word Sandinista occured a year later thanks to the organized study of the life and ideology of Sandino, the compromise of the FLN with the idea to realize a genuine revolution with a national character and last but not least, the fact that Fonseca emerged as the indisputable leader of the movement in 1962.
During 1961, another group -- the FSLN -- was formally organised by three Marxist students from Managua, Carlos Fonseca Amador, Tomás Borge Martínez and Silvio Mayorga.
Carlos Fonseca was born and raised in the northern city of Matagalpa and studied in the Law School in León, Nicaragua where he met Tomás Borge Martínez and Silvio Mayorga. Together with Heriberto Carillo, a student from Guatemala, they organize the first subversive marxistic student group in 1956.
In a disputed book published under one "Mitrokhin" -- a man alleged to have worked as a Soviet-era, KGB archivist for some 30 years -- it has been asserted that these students were recruits of the KGB. This view has yet to be verified by independent research other than secret, non-public evaluation undertaken by agents of Britain's Intelligence branch, MI6. Consequently, there is some question as to the authenticity of the documents presented by "Mitrokhin", and until further corroborating material comes to light his assertions remain questionable, at best.
In 1957 Fonseca attends the Fifth World Youth & Student Festival in Moscow. He also visits Kiev, Leningrad, East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Switzerland. Back in Nicaragua, after three months in Somoza's jail, he writes the book "A Nicaraguan in Moscow".
The allegations (KGB agent) are based mainly on those to two episodes of Fonseca's life.
As it says above, these assertions are questionable. If anyone dare to take a closer look at Fonseca's life, his writings and his struggle within the FSLN for a nationalization of the revolutionary movement, he sure can make his own conclusions.
What is undeniable -- and openly admitted by the founders and main historical players in the FSLN -- was its close cooperation and reliance upon the government of Cuba, which provided the FSLN with materiel, organizational training, and strategic and tactical support throughout its years of revolutionary conflict.
It's true, but material (weapons) and monetary support came also from other parts of the continent, including the U.S.
Nevertheless, during these early years the FSLN was never completely subsumed to Cuban leadership, largely because of its commander-in-chief, Eden Pastora's close relationship with the Panamanian leading political family.
1) Pastora visited Cuba for the first time in 1978. 17 years after the foundation of FSLN and only 1 year before the Sandinista victory in 1979.
2) Pastora was never commander-in chief of the FSLN. Furthermore, the FSLN guerilla was not an army, it was a minor, incipent political-military movement in those early.
The word "Sandinista" in reference to the FSLN appeared two years later, when the nascent organization combined its forces with those of Pastora. This new incarnation of the Sandinistas continued to present its struggle as a "movement for national liberation", pointing to the injustices committed by the kleptocratic, U.S.-imposed Somoza dictatorship its oppressive, exploitative hold over the Nicaraguan, their rights, and the national economy.
Pastora's FRS and Guerrero's FLN never joined forces (See above). Pastora didn't become part of the FSLN until 1967.
-- Magicartpro 03:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"If anyone dare to take a closer look at Fonseca's life, his writings and his struggle within the FSLN for a nationalization of the revolutionary movement, he sure can make his own conclusions."
Atavi: Thank you so much for your comments.
I didn't put further information on Pastora for the main reason that I expect (sometime in the near future) to expand his own article on Wikipedia with more data. On this particular article (FSLN) he played an important roll on three significant moments:
1) In 1957 with the creation of Frente Revolucionario Sandino (FRS), he was the first one to call himself Sandinista. Although, the FRS hadn't a direct influence (political or military) on the foundation and development of the FSLN as a revolutionary movement. The FRS was already extinct when he disbanded the organisation in 1963. The FRS was an ephemeral movement in the Sandinista history. 2) With the assault of the National Palace in 1978 Pastora became a local celebrity, a sort of a legend in the Sandinista history. His nickname, Comandante Cero ("Commander Zero") came from that operation. 3) The break-up with the Sandinista goverment in 1981 and the subsequent foundation of an anti-Sandinista armed movement (ARDE) in Costa Rica.
If anyone dare to take a closer look at Fonseca's life, his writings and his struggle within the FSLN for a nationalization of the revolutionary movement, he sure can make his own conclusions.
This was intended to be a personal comment, not to be included in this article. It's a bit contradictory to state that Fonseca was a KGB agent when his struggle (despite his Marxistic background) was to build up a nationalistic revolutionary movement, a sort of socialistic, progressive movement with a local flavour. -- Magicartpro 18:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Both the Soviet Union and East Germany provided material, logistical and economical assistance to the Sandinista's police forces and intelligence groups. But that was after 1979, not before. The Soviet Union's sister organisation in Nicaragua was the Nicaraguan Socialist Party (PSN) and the PSN's part in the Nicaraguan revolution of 1979 was extremly modest.
-- Magicartpro 21:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My sources: 1) Edelman, Marc: The Other Super Power. The Soviet Union and Latin America 1917-1987. Nacla, 1987. 2) Blachman, Morris: Confronting Revolution. Pantheon Books, New York 1986. 3) Domínguez, Edmé: The Soviet Union and Latin America. Anthology: Europe and the World, Padrigu, 1988. -- Magicartpro 21:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The allegations of the FSLN as a security threat launching sabotage missions within the United States are ridiculous. The Sandinistas hadn't at that time the capacity of fighting Somoza's National Guard. They were a clandestine movement with a few men barely trying to survive. -- Magicartpro 22:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, you say that;
The word "Sandinista" in reference to the FSLN appeared two years later, when the nascent organization combined its forces with those of Pastora.
Pastora disbanded the FRS in 1963. He joined the FSLN for the first time in 1967. The FSLN was already known as Sandinista since November 1962. Can you explain that to me? -- Magicartpro 22:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
But you reverted it? Isn't that a violation of stated policies? -- Magicartpro 22:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Really, I'm commenting on the page that is linked to. . . it's really biased and the only references are to righty websites. I have no idea if the content is accurate. Maybe someone who knows more than me can go check that page for accuracy. I don't come to wikipedia for summaries of "heritage.org" and frontpagemag.com.
This is a TERRIBLE article. It reads like neo-con propoganda screed - not a encyclopedia article. While I do not have the expertise to fix even the obvious mistakes this artcle needs a huge rewrite to remove factual errors, unsupported statements, obvious bias, and other errors. See http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front for an example of what an article should look like.
To echo the above, this is a TERRIBLE article. I have tried to improve it slightly, by modifying some of the most blatant Reaganite propaganda. Incidentally, it is BLATANT NPOV to have an article 'human rights abuses of the FSLN' and not have one on the 'human rights abuses of the Contras'. The comparison would be constructive. The FSLN were authoritarian Marxists who used murder and torture (occasionally) in a war situation. The Contras were psychotic animals who practiced rape murder torture and genocide because they enjoyed it, and as a matter of choice. Their human rights abuses also dwarfed those of the FSLN in terms of scale.
86.1.194.43
22:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This is all a bit confusing. Since the two contributors at the top said that this was a TERRIBLE article it has been heavy amended and is now quite good I think. Also people make references to parts of the article that have since been deleted. I suppose confusions like this are inevitable with live text. It might help if people dated and signed their comments then at least we would know who said what when. Just a thought SmokeyTheFatCat 17:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, honestly i can't be bothered to sign in to the page, but i do promise that i'll respect the rights of others to differing opinions. I'm a different poster than 86.1.194.43 up there; i'm from Taiwan and i really must concur w/86.1 up there: the article is a one-sided obscenity. I started off this latest round of edits about four days ago. While i'm willing to agree that the Sandinistas were somewhat authoritarian, i also would dispute even that as rather too simplistic a summation. The Sandinistas were basically an agrarian-based revolution that had a minority of Marxists and a good deal more populists, nativists, bouregoisie and tribalists as a contrasting majority. Certainly, the fundamental tenets of the party were nothing even vaguely like Leninist, Stalinist, or Maoist Marxism -- to put it bluntly, the Marxists had a snowball's chance in hell of getting any support for such an agenda. The long and the short of it is that the Contras were an obscenely brutal proxy army organized, funded and trained by conservative elements in the U.S. to fight the nativist, populist philosophy the Sandinistas represented. The irony is that, by creating the Contras, those same conservatives guaranteed that the Marxist elements in the Sandinista leadership would have the most fertile opportunity for wresting control of the party from the majority.
I wonder if someone could explain to me how a dirt-poor country like Nicaragua could "openly challenge economic interests of the United States in the region"?
Also: "prompting much fear in Washington". Fear of what? An attack on Texas??? -- Viajero 22:04, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Aren't the Sandanistas back in power at the moment? Didn't they win an election recently? Saul Taylor 06:19, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What the hell is this article, a joke!???
Here's an example of content presented in another encyclopedic entry of this length on this subject.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577584_5/revolution_and_rule.html#p141
This from MSN Encarta, which just updated their online encyclopedia. I'd never been too impressed with their history articles in the past, but the quality I've been seeing in many new articles lately, and the attention to recent historiography, is extremely impressive.
For now, I can hardly stomach having anything to do with such a page. The writers don't know much about Central America, it seems. 172 05:53, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Where are the other users with some grasp of the complexities of historical development in Central America or political struggles in peasant societies in general? I've already suffered enough from have to deal with this simplistic, ethnocentric mindset when working on articles related to political unrest in the developing world. So I'm not bothering with this article. Where's Viajero? Jtdirl? Tannin? Roadrunner? Other users who didn't graduate from the Fox News school of political sociology? 172 19:41, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
BTW, if you are done with this debate, I suppose, according to Wiki's POV policy, then I can delete the disclaimer. TDC
"Selective presentation of the data" means, I think, devoting nearly half the article to a list of the Sandinista's sins, while ignoring or skimming over some basic information that people might want to know, namely:
172 is right; this article, as it currently stands, is ludicrous. The article needs serious help (unfortunately, I don't know enough to fix it). -- No-One Jones 23:24, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hey, I think I have done my part and added valubale information on the Sandinistans, information that would have been overlooked if the usual suspects were the only contributors. TDC
I've been present at several meetings of the CDR "Comité de Défense de la Révolution" during the revolution in Burkina Faso. They were organised following the Cuban model. They role was much more complex than many imagine, they were at that time a space of real debate. I don't know how were the CDS in Nicaragua but I doubt reducing them to a "network of local spy" is compliant with NPOV. Ericd 00:05, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For reports about Human Rights in Latin Ãmerica see :
http://www.cidh.oas.org/pais.eng.htm
Ericd 10:55, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Do the Atlantic Indians speak standard English or a local Creole? -- Error 01:44, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I cut a couple of things from this article. There was too much discussion of how vile the Contras were. While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that better belongs in the article on the Contras. I also cut the "Human rights organizations that have published reports about Nicaragua" section, how is this useful information? - SimonP 05:11, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
I've read a lot of 172 comments on several political topics...it seems that every time a leftist dictator is the subject of conversation, a lot of "historical complexities" are discussed.
Fair enough, not a dictatorship, a provisional junta, followed by a "we're trying so hard to convince the U.S. that we're democratic" government.
Nope I haven't met any Sandinistas. Nicaragua ain't exactly high on my list of potential vacation spots. Trey Stone 04:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Aww, that's too bad, Nicaragua is quite beautiful. -- chaizzilla 23:45, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I would call a government with the power to decide how/who lives and dies without questions asked a dictatorship regardless of how they came to power.
Is it a coincidence the similarity in colors of the Sandinista flag and the Spanish CNT and Falange ones?
I'd say the flag was based on that of Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement, if it was based on anything at all. Red and black are international colours of revolution. [[User:DO'Neil| DO' И eil]] 06:49, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
It also looks a lot like the flag of the ELN. See http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/co}eln.gif Descendall 09:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
The sandinista flag was used for the first time by Sandino's Ejército Defensor de la Soberania Nacional back in the late 1920s. The red color stands for Freedom and the black for Death. His motto was actually "Freedom or Death".
The parts on the Contra War need serious clean-up. The way it keeps referring to the "CIA-backed war" when the article has already clearly established U.S. involvement and the "freedom fighters" sentence are emotionally-slanted POV. Trey Stone 07:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And I was also under the impression that the opposition (if there really was much) in the 1984 election operated under such constraints that they were made essentially useless. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Trey Stone 04:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I highly question this page's neutrality. It could not have been more pro-Sandinista if Ortega himself wrote it. Moreover, nowhere are the atrocities the Sandinistas committed against the people prior to seizing power described. The part about Somoza and the National Guard having superior weapons is also absurd. The Sandinistas were well-trained, highly efficient fighters trained by the PLO, Castro, the USSR, Red China, etc. Nowhere is it mentioned that Somoza's men were virtually out of ammo due to the U.S.'s arms embargo (which is the real reason the National Guard lost).
I suppose the GN's tanks and aircraft were outmatched by the FSLN's automatic weapons? No evidence of Red China supporting the FSLN. Since the 70's China had squared up against the USSR and could be found working with US in Angola (backing the FPLA) and Cambodia (backing Pol Pot). They also recognised Pinochet in 73...but I digress.....Also no proof of USSR backing the FSLN before the FSLN asked for help. No doubt PLO helped out but hardly a factor. A piss poor rebel force in the West Bank is hardly going to churn out a highly efficient latino army! Please use some common sense.
Read Nicaragua Betrayed, by Anastasio Somoza and Jack Cox. It's loaded with documentation, including Sandinista atrocities (which are also found in the February 20, 1980 Congressional Record), USSR, Red Chinese, Panamanian, Venezuelan, etc. support of the Sandinistas, U.S. support of the Sandinistas prior to and after their seizure of power, etc. The USSR supplied weapons through Cuba. Venezuela's president (I don't remember his name, so please excuse me) was a personal friend of Pedro Joaquin Chamorro (which explains his support of the Sandinistas). Costa Rica allowed Sandinistas to operate within its borders. Many Sandinistas received training at the Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow, in Cuba, and in the Middle East by the PLO. All of the afore-mentioned nations provided arms, as well. The National Guard could hardly have had 'superior weapons,' if the U.S. imposed an arms embargo and prohibited all other nations from providing them with arms.
Is this a joke - 'Nicaragua Betrayed' by SOMOZA ? Somoza was a ruthless and corrupt dictator who killed thousands and who never held an election in all the time he was in power. He even sold the people's blood from blood banks. None of this stopped the USA supporting him of course. SmokeyTheFatCat 15:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Costa Rica is an exceedingly neutral country and has no regular army. There is very little they could have done to the Sandinistas (or the Contras later on for that matter!) even if they wanted to.
As for China, that's wrong. They supported UNITA, not FPLA.
Well the US, China and South Africa all backed the FPLA until it was routed by the MPLA (with alot of Cuban help) during its march on the capital. It ceased to be a serious force after that hence the backing of UNITA by the very same nations. Check your facts. Not inclined to believe a book written by those particular experts. and stop calling it RED China.
1. Took out the entire Cuban Section, too much POV, a tad paranoid and overblown without any real proof.
Without any real proof eh? All of it is taken from various sources. I could list them if you like. TDC 23:42, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
2. Polished some bits,
a. US pressure forcing the FSLN to change its policies on the Atlantic Coast seemed a bit pro-US. Changed this to saying widespread international condemnation.
(counterpoint: surely the US arming Contra death squads in the region was partly responsible for the crimes committed by the FSLN. This would also be POV so I decided to make it the neutral version above)
b. The 1984 elections. Several groups did not claim the elections were free and fair, many international organisations/observers including the UN certified the elections as free and fair. The old version left the validity of the elections in doubt when only the groups with a vested interest (i.e. the U.S.) refused to recognise them as such.
c. Why the FSLN lost the elections. Added a bit pointing out the US has always threatened Nicaragua economicly if they dared elect the FSLN, and gave the most recent example of this which was in El Salvador.
Well TDC if you got em please list them here. For now that section is removed. Until you furnish up some proper proof from NPOV sources I suggest you change that paragraph to pointing out cuban assistance rather than implying they were in the driving seat. For example the bits about DGI involvement in training and helping the FLSN in prison breaks and assasinations is quite relevant and should be in the article. Its the tone more than anything else that is POV
The tone that is POV, I don’t quite understand? Most of the information is an amalgamation of 2 sources: The Mitrokhin Archive and an article from Global Security is [3].
This is a nice quote from Daniel Ortega
Why do authoritarians that are communist posers (that's who they really are) always talk of struggle? Does anyone seriously believe that these people had good intentions when they nationalized ownership of the land from "Somoza collaborators?" It would be better to give it back to the original owners (the natives who farmed the land). While most of the criticisms are allegations, this revolution deserves the same criticism that the Nazis, Stalin Communists, and Falangists have. They are all authoritarian collectivists who will use any ideology to exert control on the uneducated poor. This is a continual theme in Central American politics, when you solely depend on the government for your freedom, you will not get it. Overall, the article should be more critical.
I'm am just trying say that all these types of revolutionaries tend to have the same themes. Glorifying a few leaders for doing atrocities. You can even make the same case when we glorify our own "heroes." I see Communists the same way I see fascists, they want to control my life. Going to college and seeing kids wearing "che" clothing is offensive and ironic. Che was a revolutionary against American Imperialists, (ignore the fact that the Communist nations such as the USSR occupied many sovereign nations)and that same type of contrarian attitude which is protected under our consitution were squashed under these regimes. This hits home for me because my Mother's family fled from Nicaragua during the revolution. My mother thought there would be change. The same corruption still exists while the poor starve in many parts of the nation. Overt nationalism in any form can be dangerous and rob the uneducated poor.
At my college,the funniest observation was a Che computer wallpaper on a toshiba laptop made in China. The dual ironies of America being chummy with a communist nation and computer that would never have been developed if Che had his way proves my point. Communism has never survived because people are not called on to protect themselves. The next time I hear, "what will the government do for us?" I see the US losing its soul. I do have primary sources of speeches my Grandpa made to Esteli condeming Somoza's regime. I could scan them. I am quite annoyed by the one-sidedness of my professors. I guess I am a communist-hunter, and proud of it. There have been no successful true communist nations. The best we can get is a mixed economy that ensures individual liberty.
"In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners." (Wikipedia)
"Come on you pack of drug fiends, come on and murder us on our own land. I am waiting for you on my feet at the head of my patriotic soldiers, and I don't care how many of you there are. You should know that when this happens, the destruction of your mighty power will make the Capitol shake in Washington, and your blood will redden the white dome that crowns the famous White House where you plot your crimes." (quoted in Zimmermann)
"Facing the fact of not being heard on the political stage, Mao responded to Liu and Deng by launching the Cultural Revolution in 1966, in which the Communist hierarchy was circumvented by giving power directly to the Red Guards, groups of young people, often teenagers, who set up their own tribunals. The Revolution led to the destruction of much of China's cultural heritage and the imprisonment of a huge number of Chinese intellectuals, amongst other social chaos." (Wikipedia)
Its pretty much the truth of everything. Its ironic that saying the Sandinistas were an oppressive regime is considered a POV, but then again some people still dont believe the Earth is a sphere. My parents also grew up fighting Somoza, they weren't compelled to leave until they were so violated by Che Ortega's regime. They were far from being capitalist conspirators or "burges", they only wanted to have the freedom to debate like we are doing now. Reagan didn't care too much about the fate of Nicaraguan individuals, but the majority of Nicaraguans would pick Reagan over the Sandinistas except those who would directly benefit from their personal relationships with socialist leaders. ( Jpineda84 01:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC))
Why do right wing ignoramuses that are pseudo-intellectual posers treat WP talk pages as if they were a forum for spewing their ill-informed political rants? -- Jibal 10:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
...the National Assembly unanimously passed an Autonomy Law in 1987 that made Nicaragua the first American nation to recognise its multiethnic nature, guaranteeing the economic, cultural, linguistic and religious rights demanded by the indigenous groups of the Atlantic Coast.
Was it really the first? Surely the United States and Canada had also done something by the mid-1980s to recognize indigenous rights, however unsatisfactorily from some points of view. In the U.S., for instance, tribal treaties were already being enforced anew, and reservations have had autonomous self-government on a par with the states since the 1920s, IIRC. Perhaps the author meant "Latin American nation"? Or maybe the claim of being the first "to recognise its multiethnic nature" isn't really tenable on closer examination? -- Skoosh 19:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
One wonder's why this article does not mention Ortega's properties, the ones he confiscated from "Somocistas" for the people and then held on to apparently for the "good of the people." xe xe (El Jigüe, 11/1/2005)
It was not only Somocistas, property from exiles were confiscated as well.
Yeah Ortega wanted to make sure no dirty capitalist got their hands on those sweet Managuan mansions by moving in and raising up that beautiful black and red flag of equality on the lawn. What a great guy, I wonder if he changed the welcome mat.
==Reasons of FSLN electoral losses== (or, an anon defending his edits)
Hostile U.S. policy towards the FSLN has been a reason for their electoral defeats: 1. By channeling funds and exercising influence, the U.S. have made sure that there have never been strong two right-wing candidates up for election to ensure that even if the PLC is factually divided in two, it will always run only one presidential candidate.
2. Even after the U.S. sponsored 1990 victory, there have been repeated threats to cut down aid should the FSLN ever return to power. In a country as economically dependent of the United States as Nicaragua, this means directly manipulating the electoral process. Not that the U.S., acting in it's own interest, shouldn't do it, but it is a fact worth mentioning.
The first link does not explicitly mention a US aid cut-off or embargo in the event of a Sandinista victory (maybe I missed it though) and even says the US took a lesser role than in 1990. The second link reads like a pro-FSLN propaganda piece and only mentions that it would not be in "American interests" if Ortega won. No specific threats were detailed. The third link does not mention US specific pressure either. CJK 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
3. The contras were, for all intents and purposes, U.S. sponsored puppets. They did their best, not to achieve military victory, but to do as much damage as possible, by attacking schools, hospitals, co-operatives. Not to forget the CIA-supported mining of Nicaraguan harbors. If this, plus the economic embargo (which by the way violated a trade agreement that both countries had signed) doesn't merit to "U.S. sponsored aggression", what does?
The idea that the contras were U.S. puppets is frankly incorrect. This was basically the impression that the Sandista government wanted to give to international sympathizers. To get a really good understanding of who the Contras really were it would be useful to look at''The Real Contra War: Highlander Peasant Resistance in Nicaragua by Timothy C. Brown. He has very good documentation (half of the volume is actual photocopies of authentic documents of the post-war disarmament lead by the new democratic government) concering the numbers of Contras who laid down their weapons after the 1990 elections as well as their orientations. In fact, it is a huge misconception that the Contras were in any way controlled or concieved by the CIA. I think the perpetuation of this idea has little to do with evidence and more with anti-American sentiments as well as the willingness to listen to people such as Noam Chomsky who rarely have evidence to back up their claims. The "Contras", a Sandinista term, actually became active before the Reagan administration, and at the time were known as the MILPAS. The MILPAS were the large bulk of the resistence which came from the northern mountains. These were peasant farmers, and represented the majority of the resistence. The MILPAS later joined the U.S. backed FDN which composed of many ex-Gaurdia. The Gaurdia were only a tiny percentage of the resistence. Human Rights abuses went both ways and accusations of human rights abuses was much easier to point out by the Sandinista government since they had control of the media and we able to villainize the resistence (Communist governments are experts at propoganda ex. most North Koreans think they live in the wealthiest nation in the world). If you study Nicaraguan history, you will see that the struggle of the highlander peasants and the people of the plains began way before the Nicaraguan Revolution. In essence your claim that the contras did not want to achieve victory is baseless. Farmers did not want to be controlled by an authoritarian government that would change their traditional way of life. In a poor country like Nicaragua, the propertied "bourgoisie" were in fact the dirt poor farmers. ( Jpineda84 04:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
a:"Agression" is a POV propaganda word. All that stuff can be mentioned without calling it "agression". (Did "Cuban aggression" oust Samoza? Was the El Salvador insurgency kept alive by "Nicaraguan aggression"?)
OK. But "American aggression" could be better worded as "U.S. sponsored war and embargo". CJK 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Rewording and NPOVing is of course welcome as long as the facts are there. =) -- 80.221.37.23 02:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Can the use of poor military tactics (the part about Russian style wave attacks) be considered a human rights abuse? Obviously they were stupid tactics to use for a number of reasons, as noted, but an abuse of human rights? I don't think so.
The conscripts used included young teenagers who were forcibly taken into service by soldiers waiting for them at places like schools and buses and then used them as cannon fodder at battles. How is this not a human rights abuse? Kaven06 06:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I do believe this would be considered human rights abuses. A nation has the right of introducing conscription, how ever there are regulations to be followed and conscripts must be given proper notification and time to appeal. However, Sandista conscription was unorganized an ill prepared. Many conscripts were in fact kidnapped from their schools and taken to the front the very next day. ( Jpineda84 03:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
This article has many POV claims which are unreferenced. This is a US-centric article. Beside, it is important to note that the Sandinistas organized the elections which they lost; after all, if they were so bad, they could have just indefinitely postpone them... Tazmaniacs
They were forced into elections. The contra war had forced them to sign a treaty (Esquipulas II, 1987) guaranteeing elections. After they lost they not only stole property, but government-controlled businesses to guarantee funds for their party. Kaven06 06:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
This is true, there was huge international pressure for Ortega to call elections. President Arias of Costa Rica, a staunch critic of the Sandinistas, was given a Nobel Prize in his part for creating a coalition of Latin American nations to force a peace treaty. Also, the Contra War was a huge factor. Once the FDN handed in its weapons it was obvious that they had a popular following from within. ( http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureates/1987/arias-bio.html) ( Jpineda84 03:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
It was my understanding that under the new constitution, elections took place every six years. First one was in 1984, the second one in 1990. So it was a regularly scheduled election. My take on the FSLN overall is that they did a lot of really good things and a lot of really screwed up things too. Loveandlight
I've reverted edits by 66.68.69.130 ( talk · contribs). The quote he added was not only irrelevant, but mangled from the original which described Blandon and Meneses by name, not the Contras. — Viriditas | Talk 08:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Now before someone wipes my recent edits away claiming that I have seen Red Dawn one too many times, please come here first. All material added is referenced, and considering its significance and the way it will alter the article I realize there will be some “debate”. Ten Dead Chickens 21:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well it seems that no one used the talk page, so here goes.
Pg 41, Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili. The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World.
Pg 40 Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB Pg 181 Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili. The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World.
I know ... I know ... shades of Red Dawn, but what are you going to do, the truth is, as they say, stranger than fiction.
Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
First, why are these citations on the talk page? They belong in the article itself. There is a referencing/citation system now available; why aren't you using it?
Second, various comments you have added need to be attributed to someone, not presented as fact in the editorial voice, such as:
I have tried to verify your citations with only partial success:
The "search inside" function of Amazon does not indicate any reference of this kind, on page 41 or any other page [10]
I can find the Shelepin cite but not the one about Fonseca [11].
The "search inside" function of Amazon does not indicate any reference of this kind, on pages 44-47, or any other page [12]
The "search inside" function of Amazon does not indicate any reference of this kind, on pages 48, or any other page [13] [14]
I can find the material cited on page 363 but not the Honduras/Costa Rica text [15]
The actual text reads: By 1970, in the Centre's view, the DGI [the "KGB's Cuban ally"] had effectively "expropriated" the Sandinista ISKRA guerilla group. As the text did not elaborate on what ISKRA was, on what grounds do you extrapolate that it concerned the Sandinistas as a whole? [16]
A couple of comments: as ex-intelligence sources go, Mitrokhin is a decent one. Still:
Viajero and TDC, it would be very helpful to try to get the specific citations into the article itself. Viajero, it would be very helpful if you could give a comprehensive list of what you dispute, so that the issues can be identified and then addressed one by one. And, TDC, it would be very useful if you would (1) look through your citations and make sure that you have them right; where Viajero cannot find things, you probably should quote at least the start of the relevant passages here on the talk page so that they can be found. (2) Look through what you wrote and see if there things that you wrote that are problematic per Viajero's remark that begins, "Second, various comments you have added need to be attributed to somone…" If you've got attribution, cite it. If not, could you please help mitigate this conflict by just removing these yourself? It would speed the inevitable. - Jmabel | Talk 19:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Viajero, You were looking in the wrong book [17] [18], try this : [19]. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
What's this? Come on... let's get serious around here. This article reflects an absolute ignorance on Nicaraguan history. I wonder if the author actually lived in Nicaragua or if he just tuned in FoxNews, like someone said here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.98.170.169 ( talk • contribs) 7 April 2006.
Indeed. How many citizens of the USA ever killed by the Sandinistas? The answer is a bit fat zero. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SmokeyTheCat ( talk • contribs) 8 July 2006.
This seems a little bit biased? Maybe it's just me. It says:
"...the revolutionaries were perceived as proponents of “godless communism” that posed a threat to the traditionally privileged place that the Church occupied within Nicaraguan society."
It does not seem inconceivable, to me, that the Church would oppose "godless communism" because it placed itself vocally in opposition to any sort of faith in a man they thought (and still think, if memory serves me correctly) was God incarnate. It is not the 13th century, Innocent III is no longer in power; I am sure that if Ecclesiastical officials were interested only in living lives of privilege, and not in their faith, there would be far better ways of achieving their goals than through the church. This just seems logically more believable than what's up there now, to me.
There were three priests in the FSLN government. There was absolutely nothing ever done to oppose or hinder church activities in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas. A far cry from El Salvador in the same period where many priests were killed, many nuns raped and the Archbishop Ramos murdered. SmokeyTheFatCat 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.172.205.160 ( talk • contribs) 19 April 2006.
You are thinking of Archbishop Oscar Romero, not Ramos. I recall another incident when Pope John Paul II visited Nicaragua and would not allow the new guerilla government to kiss his ring because of the "blood on their(Sandinistas) hands." The only time he ever had to ask an audience at mass to quiet down was that same day when he lost patience and yelled "SILENCIO."
I remember French Catholics collecting money for Nicaragua around 1982.... Ericd 15:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, "Opposition" is capitalized. Is this referring to some particular entity (in which case it should probably be linked) or not (in which case it should probably be lower-case). - Jmabel | Talk 00:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, in this context "the Somoza government" is going to be very unclear to anyone who doesn't know the history, since it refers to government by at least three different members of the Somoza family; linking to one of them does not really clarify.
Further, Sandino was not the first to oppose Anastasio Somoza Delbayle, just the first to lead an armed opposition. - Jmabel | Talk 00:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
You're thinking of Archbishop Oscar Romero, not Ramos. I recall another incident when Pope John Paul II visited Nicaragua and would not let the Sandinistas kiss his ring because of the blood on their hands. Later at mass, he had to ask the crowd to quiet down, the only time he ever yelled at an audience of one of his sermons?
_Marco Murillo (DC)
The article is turning into a mess! Multiple reference sections, repeated information, that often contradicts itself, and boatloads of uncited material. Probably needs a rewrite. Suggestions for improvement? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how taking out all references to the election of 1984 makes for a better article. SmokeyTheFatCat 21:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Nope they were all gone until I reinstated a mention. SmokeyTheFatCat 21:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
What objections, specifically, do you have to either the factual conclusions, or the use of Mitrokhin’s material? No one has seriously questions any of it, and it is all derived from primary sources, namely documents he copied and smuggled out in the early 90’s. Please be specific, as much of this was discussed in a prior thread, Talk:Sandinista National Liberation Front#Recent Edits, and objectionable material was removed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
(106:2, April 2001): "Mitrokhin was a self-described loner with increasingly anti-Soviet views . . . Maybe such a potentially dubious type (in KGB terms) really was able freely to transcribe thousands of documents, smuggle them out of KGB premises, hide them under his bed, transfer them to his country house, bury them in milk cans, make multiple visits to British embassies abroad, escape to Britain, and then return to Russia, and carry the voluminous work to the west, all without detection by the KGB . . . It may all be true. But how do we know?."
Without weighing in on the immediate matter at hand (I haven't read the cited material), there is absolutely no requirement that one cite online material. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources. - Jmabel | Talk 06:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Following,
I thought I would begin a discussion about the issue. As I said earlier:
P.S. I think that the article about Fonseca as it is, with "alleged KGB" in the introduction is how it should be, although if you want to discuss it further I'm open.- Atavi 16:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Who says Mitrokhin's a "reliable" witness? Simply because prosecutions might arise from a literary work that involved the collaboration between someone who calls himself a "KGB defector" (absolutely unverifiable) and an admitted agent of MI6, one of the most active propaganda and intelligence organizations in Europe? Come, come, now -- unless there is verifiable academic sourcing for these assertions, they should at the very least remain qualified in the article. Media figures and politicians are no less liable to the artistry of a good con -- and far more likely to be targetted -- than any other Joe Blow. 61.231.8.107 14:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
TDC edited out mentions of the fact that the contras were a proxy army that primarily engaged in terrorist attacks against civilian targets, calling them "unsourced." Here's a source:
Edgar Chamorro was a former member of the contra directorate who became disillusioned after being given the CIA's now-infamous instruction manual giving advice on how the contras should conduct economic sabotage and terrorism. His book thoroughly documents both the fact that the contras were a U.S. proxy army, and the fact that they avoided confrontations with the Sandinista army and focused instead on terrorist attacks against civilian targets. Both of these facts are well-supported by numerous other contemporaneous reports, including for example reports by human rights groups such as Amnesty International or Americas Watch. -- Sheldon Rampton 17:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not true that no one else agrees with Abe, and TDC should stop using this kind of hectoring, insulting language. I agree with him that Mitrokhin's claims are controversial and certainly suspect at best with regard to the notion that the Sandinistas ever attempted any kind of "intelligence and sabotage" operation inside or even near U.S. borders.
I don't know why TDC finds it "interesting" that I "never commented on the material above." Unlike him, I'm not obsessed with this article. He comes back several times a day to hector people on the talk page, to insert poorly researched, tendentious and factually flawed claims, always aimed at inserting his point of view ("Sandinistas = communist conspiracy = bad"). I, on the other hand, rarely edit this article and rarely comment on the talk page.
In response to TDC's refusal to recognize that the contras were a "proxy army," I've added a reference to an essay from the National Security Archives, which quotes former Edgar Chamorro as follows: "We were a proxy army, directed, funded, receiving all intelligence and suggestions, from the CIA. We had no plan for Nicaragua, we were working for American goals." As a member of the contra directorate, Chamorro was certainly in a better position to know whereof he spoke than for example Mitrokhin, who had no direct role in shaping Soviet policy toward the Sandinistas and whose claims are all based on his interpretations of documents whose authenticity remains unproven.
I've retained TDC's mention of the role played by Argentina's military dictatorship in supporting the contras. It's true that they were involved early. Most scholars regard Argentina as an agent of U.S. policy in this regard, but Ariel C. Armony has argued that Argentina was acting on its own initiative rather than as a U.S. surrogate. In any case, I have no objection to noting that the contras' other support came from a military junta that killed thousands of its own citizens and then went to war with Britain over the Falkland Islands.
As for TDC's objection to the use of the word "terrorism," this is an accurate description of the contras' main strategy, and it is incorrect for TDC to write that avoiding attacks on the military is somehow reflective of "classical insurgency techniques aimed at civilian populations." As Wikipedia's article on guerrilla warfare states, "Guerrillas in wars against foreign powers do not principally direct their attacks at civilians, as they desire to obtain as much support as possible from the population as part of their tactics." However, terrorists do use "violence, or threat of violence targeted against innocents or non-combatants ... to bring about compliance with specific political, religious, ideological, and personal demands." Indeed, the targeting of civilian noncombatants is precisely what distinguishes terrorism from other types of warfare. If TDC wishes to argue against this meaning for the word "terrorist," perhaps he can show us where he has tried to make similar arguments against the use of this term in reference to Hezbollah or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to conclude that this is just another example of someone objecting to the word "terrorist" when the terrorist in question happens to be someone they like.
Finally, I've revised TDC's absurd claim that "the Sandinistas' long history and growing ties with the Soviet Union and Cuba" made "peaceful alignment and cooperation with the U.S. ... impossible." It certainly wasn't impossible. There are numerous examples of countries that managed to have peaceful alignment and cooperation with the U.S. and the Soviet bloc simultaneously, so this clearly wasn't "impossible." Examples range from Finland to India. Another (quite deplorable) example is the peaceful alignment and cooperation that both the U.S. and USSR provided to Saddam Hussein's regime during the Iran-Iraq war. --Sheldon Rampton 06:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
There was a very good book/pamphlet of this title published by Oxfam some 20 years ago, long since out of print, in robust defence of the Sandinistas. Sandinista policies (land reform, literacy campaigns, healthcare provision etc.) were very popular among the people but threatened the profits of United Fruit(Dole) and Del Monte by taking some of their vast estates of land and redistrubuting them to the landless poor. Such a scheme of government would have been very popular throughout Central America and the Carribean. This was not acceptable to the Reagan administration and so all the nonsense about the 'Soviet threat' was made up and the Contras hugely supported. As was the case in Chile 10 years earlier profits for US-based multinationals were more important than human life. SmokeyTheFatCat 18:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
A dispute currently exists over the inclusion of material from Vasili Mitrokhin. Does the material conform with WP:RS and should details relevant to the subject be included in the article without prejudice?
Discuss. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 23:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph from the human rights abuses section:
I'm unaware of any evidence suggesting that this was the case. Moreover, it is highly implausible. During the entire war, the Contras never held a city for so much as a day. I remember during the late 1980s there was an incident when this fact was being discussed during congressional debates, with members of Congress saying that they were reluctant to approve further funding for a military insurgency that had shown no ability to capture or hold territory for any significant period of time. Moreover, Soviet support for the Sandinistas continued until they lost power in the 1990 elections, so the notion that "outspending the Soviet Union into bankruptcy" curtailed military support to the Sandinistas runs contrary to known facts. This whole paragraph seems to me to be nothing but ideologically-motivated fantasy, and if someone wants to restore it, they have an obligation to provide credible citations for it. -- Sheldon Rampton 06:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
TDC, I sense your influence on this article in the Cuban influence sections. While no one doubts the importance of Cuban teachers, doctors, and others in the Sandinista’s programs, there are a few sections that need citation. There are also a few sections that seem to be tendentiously written.
“By 1970 the DGI had managed to train hundreds of Sandinista guerrilla leaders and had vast influence over the organization,” you write. “Vast” is an evaluative word that rarely belongs in an encyclopedia article, especially when it is such a powerful assertion about something that is little known and impossible to objectively measure: you’re talking about the influnce of the DGI on the Sandinista organization.
You follow by noting that the DGI’s influence after 1979, apparently already “vast,” still managed to expand “rapidly.” Your proof? Nicaragua and Cuba re-established diplomatic relations. And a DGI agent was named as the ambassador to Cuba. I’m sure you’re well aware that the CIA regularly operates out of US foreign embassies. I just don’t see how your characterizations are supported by the evidence you present.
You go on to present Álvaro Baldizón, a Sandinista defector I’ve never heard of, as the source of the amazing allegation that Cuban “advice” was treated as if it were “orders” by the Sandinistas in contact with the “over 2,500” DGI operatives “at all levels of the Nicaraguan government.” You use one defector to support the allegation that, apparently, the entire Nicaraguan government was a puppet regime of the Cubans. You are talking about a situation that is almost impossible to objectively measure and so it’s questionable if it should be an encyclopedia article at all. Your support for your amazing argument, again, is a single defector.
Later on you provide such unsourced and amazingly evaluative gems as this: “While the Cubans would like to have helped more in the development of Nicaragua towards socialism, they realized that they were no match for the United States' pressure on Latin America.” They realized they were no match for the United States? Really? When did Fidel say that?
Defying rational belief, it goes on. Again, unsourced: “The commission has overseen approximately 300 million dollars (U.S) between the years 1979 and 1987 in assistance to Nicaragua and according to Prevost it does not include military aid or the cost for schooling Nicaraguans in Cuba.” I assume somewhere in Prevost’s writing you can find this figure. I wonder, however, if, in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, it would be possible to find any article anywhere that asserts a fact and cites a single author who wrote a book on the subject as the source (in the article, no less).
Another fact I’ve never seen: “Critics of the campaign contend that this effort was thinly disguised communist indoctrination, and point to the fact that elementary school books taught basic mathematics with illustrations of hand grenades.”
You cite Prevost so many times, in these and following paragraphs, that I begin to get the feeling that you are student writing a book report.
I don’t want you to think I’m picking on you. The paragraph about the Mitrokin Archive was obviously written by one of your detractors and contemptuously sums up Mitrokin’s work and dismisses it. I don’t see how that tone belongs in wikipedia either. I just mention the Cuban parts (apparently written by you) because they are such a glaring departure from what an encyclopedia article should look like.
I could find a book written by someone who published in a relatively mainstream press to argue anything I wanted: from “the CIA staged the moon landing on a stage in Burbank” to authors who denied the existence of the Holocaust. Encyclopedia articles should cover information that is widely known by governments and non-governmental agencies with a neutral point of view. -- MarkB2 22:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the human rights section that was deleted recently by an anonymous IP number. However, I've rewritten it somewhat, in particular a passage which alleged that Amnesty International had documented abuses in prison. While it's true that Amnesty documented a number of human rights abuses committed under the Sandinistas, I don't believe that their reports described the specific abuses mentioned in the paragraph I removed. Also, AI and other human rights groups noted a number of positive achievements and reforms by the Sandinistas in the area of human rights, so I've noted those as well.
It appears that someone (perhaps the same individual) has blanked the contents of the FSLN human rights abuses article. I haven't restored it, because the contents that were blanked are clearly problematic and extremely POV. For starters, they rely exclusively on right-wing sources. Moreover, the blanked contents go well beyond the claims made even by those right-wing sources. For example, the article relies on a Heritage Foundation article which alleges persecution of Jews, and claims that "Nicaragua was and is home to many Jews" — a claim that is contradicted by the Heritage article. In fact, Nicaragua's Jewish population was very small. (The Heritage article says the total Jewish population in Nicaragua shortly before the revolution was only 200.) The section on Jean-Paul Genie also contains a number of glaring inaccuracies, and the article throughout is marred by numerous spelling errors and other obvious flaws.
I think it would be fine to have a sub-article examining the Sandinista human rights record, but it should be based on reputable human rights observers such as Amnesty International, America's Watch or Human Rights Watch — not on ultra-rightist publications such as FrontPage Magazine. Also, it should have a less POV name. Instead of "FSLN human rights abuses," I would suggest "Sandinista human rights record." -- Sheldon Rampton 04:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't even know where to begin. There are plenty of errors. Names, dates and historical data are inaccurate. This article needs to be rewritten asap. I don't know if the author himself has ever been in Nicaragua. There is a lot of imagination involved in this... crap... sorry but I can't find another word for this.
For example, The "Group of Twelve," a group of "indignant businessmen????," are pictured as "bandidos" that stole money from Somoza that was originally intended to feed and to clothe the homeless after the 1972 earthquake... Hm, wait a minute... wasn't the Group of Twelve founded five years later by initiave of the FSLN? Where they not a group of intelectuals and prominent figures from Nicaraguan society in those years?
Or later on when Carlos Fonseca and Daniel Ortega (in a post-Somoza Nicaragua) acknowledged that the FSLN owed a great debt to Cuba. Eh.... wasn't Fonseca assassinated by the Guardia Nacional, three years before the FSLN took power in Nicaragua??? Now, suddenly, the author of this article is a psychic and we didn't know!!! Talkin' about ghosts...
And so further... I can go on and on and on... but I think you got the point... Rewrite! ASAP!
-- Magicartpro 07:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll give this a article a try when I have some time. I'm currently updating some info and expanding the articles on the Nicaraguan municipalities. The first suggestion I can think of is shortening the introduction a bit and leave only two paragraphs.
Paragraph 1: Keep it. (The Sandinista National... ...he was never a Marxist)
Paragraph 2: (The Sandinistas were the product of three disparate social and ideological groups) is inaccurate. The FSLN split into three factions in the 70's. Suggestion; Delete.
Paragraph 3 & 4: (After emerging... and During this nascent period) belongs, the first to the section Sandinistas vs. Contras and the second to Opposition (since 1990)
Paragraph 5: Keep it. (Today the FSLN remains ... ...has left a lasting impression in the country)
Magicartpro 00:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My observations on the History 1961–1970 section. Maybe to much to read for you, but if you all agree I will begin editing this first part and the introduction. Let me know. Cheers!
The original text is in cursive.
The Sandinistas were initially several disparate groups that came together from various Nicaraguan regions to cooperate in the overthrow of the Somoza regime. In general, the groups were organized locally from among peasants and aboriginal inhabitants...
Sandino had several aboriginal inhabitants or miskitos in his army in the early 30's, but the indigenous population of the Nicaraguan Atlantic Coast never simpathized with the struggle of the new Sandinistas. There are three reasons for that; 1) The repression and brutality of the Somoza regime was focused mainly on the population of the urban and rural areas of the Pacific Coast. 2) The North-American transnational companies dominated the economy of the small towns in the Nicaraguan Atlantic Coast and were seen as a progressive force that brought modernity to these areas (electrical power, etc.) 3) Cultural reasons. The young Sandinistas had no experience in dealing with the ethnic population of Nicaragua (miskitos, sumos, etc.)
On the other hand, the people involved in the incipient insurrectional groups of the 50's came from diverse social and economical backgrounds. They were not only local peasants, there were also students, workers and leaders of the local oligarchy and traditional parties.
The first of these groups was organized by Eden Pastora, an activist who was later to become more widely known as "Commander Zero". Pastora organized his group -- which was later to take the official name ADRE -- in the late 1950's, and was the first group to call itself "Sandinistas".
1) Pastora's group was known as Frente Revolucionario Sandino (FRS) and was founded in 1957. Pastora abandoned the armed struggle in 1963 after an amnisty and becomes member of the Nicaraguan Conservative Party (PCN), in oppposition to Somoza.
After a short stay in prision in 1967 Pastora integrates the FSLN for the first time. That year, the Sandinistas suffered an historical defeat in Pancasán, and Pastora goes in to exile. He returned to Nicaragua and to the FSLN two years later and remained there until 1973 when he abandoned the armed struggle once again and moves to Costa Rica. In 1976 he joined the FSLN for the last time. In 1981 he abandoned the FSLN for the third time and goes into exile.
In 1982 Pastora organized a his own army against the Sandinista government which took the name Democratic Revolutionary Alliance (ARDE). Pastora abandones the struggle in 1986. He returns to Nicaragua in 1989 to support the Social Christian Party (PSC) in the upcoming elections of 1990.
2) The other group of Sandinistas, under the direction of Carlos Fonseca, Santos López (lieutenant in Sandino's army), Noel Guerrero, Tomás Borge, Silvio Mayorga and others took the name Frente de Liberación Nacional (FLN) in 1961.
Carlos Fonseca was until then a member of the Nicaraguan Socialist Party (PSN), together with Noel Guerrero. Guerrero was one of the most influent leaders inside the FLN and opposed to call the FLN Sandinista. His believe was that Sandino wasn't radical enough. Sandino fought against the U.S. ocuppation, but he was not an anti-imperialist or a true socialist in Guerrero's eyes.
The break-up of Fonseca with Guerrero and the change of the name of the organisation to FSLN in order to include the word Sandinista occured a year later thanks to the organized study of the life and ideology of Sandino, the compromise of the FLN with the idea to realize a genuine revolution with a national character and last but not least, the fact that Fonseca emerged as the indisputable leader of the movement in 1962.
During 1961, another group -- the FSLN -- was formally organised by three Marxist students from Managua, Carlos Fonseca Amador, Tomás Borge Martínez and Silvio Mayorga.
Carlos Fonseca was born and raised in the northern city of Matagalpa and studied in the Law School in León, Nicaragua where he met Tomás Borge Martínez and Silvio Mayorga. Together with Heriberto Carillo, a student from Guatemala, they organize the first subversive marxistic student group in 1956.
In a disputed book published under one "Mitrokhin" -- a man alleged to have worked as a Soviet-era, KGB archivist for some 30 years -- it has been asserted that these students were recruits of the KGB. This view has yet to be verified by independent research other than secret, non-public evaluation undertaken by agents of Britain's Intelligence branch, MI6. Consequently, there is some question as to the authenticity of the documents presented by "Mitrokhin", and until further corroborating material comes to light his assertions remain questionable, at best.
In 1957 Fonseca attends the Fifth World Youth & Student Festival in Moscow. He also visits Kiev, Leningrad, East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Switzerland. Back in Nicaragua, after three months in Somoza's jail, he writes the book "A Nicaraguan in Moscow".
The allegations (KGB agent) are based mainly on those to two episodes of Fonseca's life.
As it says above, these assertions are questionable. If anyone dare to take a closer look at Fonseca's life, his writings and his struggle within the FSLN for a nationalization of the revolutionary movement, he sure can make his own conclusions.
What is undeniable -- and openly admitted by the founders and main historical players in the FSLN -- was its close cooperation and reliance upon the government of Cuba, which provided the FSLN with materiel, organizational training, and strategic and tactical support throughout its years of revolutionary conflict.
It's true, but material (weapons) and monetary support came also from other parts of the continent, including the U.S.
Nevertheless, during these early years the FSLN was never completely subsumed to Cuban leadership, largely because of its commander-in-chief, Eden Pastora's close relationship with the Panamanian leading political family.
1) Pastora visited Cuba for the first time in 1978. 17 years after the foundation of FSLN and only 1 year before the Sandinista victory in 1979.
2) Pastora was never commander-in chief of the FSLN. Furthermore, the FSLN guerilla was not an army, it was a minor, incipent political-military movement in those early.
The word "Sandinista" in reference to the FSLN appeared two years later, when the nascent organization combined its forces with those of Pastora. This new incarnation of the Sandinistas continued to present its struggle as a "movement for national liberation", pointing to the injustices committed by the kleptocratic, U.S.-imposed Somoza dictatorship its oppressive, exploitative hold over the Nicaraguan, their rights, and the national economy.
Pastora's FRS and Guerrero's FLN never joined forces (See above). Pastora didn't become part of the FSLN until 1967.
-- Magicartpro 03:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"If anyone dare to take a closer look at Fonseca's life, his writings and his struggle within the FSLN for a nationalization of the revolutionary movement, he sure can make his own conclusions."
Atavi: Thank you so much for your comments.
I didn't put further information on Pastora for the main reason that I expect (sometime in the near future) to expand his own article on Wikipedia with more data. On this particular article (FSLN) he played an important roll on three significant moments:
1) In 1957 with the creation of Frente Revolucionario Sandino (FRS), he was the first one to call himself Sandinista. Although, the FRS hadn't a direct influence (political or military) on the foundation and development of the FSLN as a revolutionary movement. The FRS was already extinct when he disbanded the organisation in 1963. The FRS was an ephemeral movement in the Sandinista history. 2) With the assault of the National Palace in 1978 Pastora became a local celebrity, a sort of a legend in the Sandinista history. His nickname, Comandante Cero ("Commander Zero") came from that operation. 3) The break-up with the Sandinista goverment in 1981 and the subsequent foundation of an anti-Sandinista armed movement (ARDE) in Costa Rica.
If anyone dare to take a closer look at Fonseca's life, his writings and his struggle within the FSLN for a nationalization of the revolutionary movement, he sure can make his own conclusions.
This was intended to be a personal comment, not to be included in this article. It's a bit contradictory to state that Fonseca was a KGB agent when his struggle (despite his Marxistic background) was to build up a nationalistic revolutionary movement, a sort of socialistic, progressive movement with a local flavour. -- Magicartpro 18:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Both the Soviet Union and East Germany provided material, logistical and economical assistance to the Sandinista's police forces and intelligence groups. But that was after 1979, not before. The Soviet Union's sister organisation in Nicaragua was the Nicaraguan Socialist Party (PSN) and the PSN's part in the Nicaraguan revolution of 1979 was extremly modest.
-- Magicartpro 21:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My sources: 1) Edelman, Marc: The Other Super Power. The Soviet Union and Latin America 1917-1987. Nacla, 1987. 2) Blachman, Morris: Confronting Revolution. Pantheon Books, New York 1986. 3) Domínguez, Edmé: The Soviet Union and Latin America. Anthology: Europe and the World, Padrigu, 1988. -- Magicartpro 21:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The allegations of the FSLN as a security threat launching sabotage missions within the United States are ridiculous. The Sandinistas hadn't at that time the capacity of fighting Somoza's National Guard. They were a clandestine movement with a few men barely trying to survive. -- Magicartpro 22:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, you say that;
The word "Sandinista" in reference to the FSLN appeared two years later, when the nascent organization combined its forces with those of Pastora.
Pastora disbanded the FRS in 1963. He joined the FSLN for the first time in 1967. The FSLN was already known as Sandinista since November 1962. Can you explain that to me? -- Magicartpro 22:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
But you reverted it? Isn't that a violation of stated policies? -- Magicartpro 22:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)